Forum logs for 10 Mar 2017

Monday, 16 March, Year 12 d.Tr. | Author:

deedbot:	http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/BD8C9C1ADBE5ED9416A31D88FB9C1A1090230FACD87D55B9363507BAB92E0559 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1497...5393 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '78.137.160.9 (ssh-rsa key from 78.137.160.9 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt> ' (ip-78-137-160-9.dedi.digiweb.ie. IE L)	[00:00]
deedbot:	http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/BD8C9C1ADBE5ED9416A31D88FB9C1A1090230FACD87D55B9363507BAB92E0559 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1709...1097 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '78.137.160.9 (ssh-rsa key from 78.137.160.9 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt> ' (ip-78-137-160-9.dedi.digiweb.ie. IE L)	[00:00]
lobbes:	http://trilema.com/forum-logs-for-09-mar-2017#2249563 << I agree and will admit that my bot and log-o-tron are/were largely forged from used dildos I found laying in the forest. I also don't pretend that they are anything but	[00:08]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-09 18:23 trinque: I said to him "students may learn swordplay but may not tell us the fork in their hands is a sword"	[00:08]
lobbes:	I'm still in the process of climbing out of the primordial soup, so to speak. 'had to start somewhere, etc' Though I realize I will need to flamethrow my own creations soon enough and rebuild once I 'evolve' a bit more. But all in due time	[00:08]
trinque:	cool, later in the thread I'm convinced the whole thing is reasonable	[00:09]
trinque:	:p	[00:09]
lobbes:	sure, but from what I can observe, your own deedbot (and others' log-o-trons) appear to operate in a more sane manner. I guess I'm just saying I have much to learn	[00:13]
trinque:	happy to help when you feel like trying it out.	[00:14]
trinque:	in fact, I'll go ahead and get the logbot-service thing released now, since it's been running the wot & voicing for maybe a month now	[00:15]
ben_vulpes:	> forged from used dildos	[00:16]
lobbes:	trinque: ah thank you!	[00:16]
ben_vulpes:	HAVE YE VISITED MOUNT DILDO FORGE, NEWCOMER?	[00:16]
lobbes:	l0l	[00:17]
davout:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624027 <<< bwhaha "couille molle"	[02:02]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 03:18 BingoBoingo: lulz http://www.returnofkings.com/116375/le-favori-de-lelection-presidentielle-francaise-cette-couille-molle-marie-a-une-femme-de-25-ans-son-ainee	[02:02]
phf:	asciilifeform: there's several sources of vlm floating around, some of them improved upon by independent hackers (in the direct meaning of the word improve)	[05:34]
phf:	asciilifeform: if you spent time with it though, you'll realize that it's an assembly dump of the original emulator written for alpha, and the "emulator" part is actually a combination of c and lisp necessary to ~translate original alpha assembly into portable-ish c~	[05:39]
phf:	i've spent some time with it before, improving mac os support, and working out crash issues	[05:40]
phf:	i don't quite remember, what goes where, but i'm pretty sure the emulator.c that you linked is a frankenstein that primarily emulates alpha, though it has some signifcant knowledge about what the alpha emulator does, so it's not quite qemu, but something a lot scarrier	[05:43]
deedbot:	http://qntra.net/2017/03/park-geun-hye-impeachment-upheld-by-south-korean-court-shes-out-of-there/ << Qntra - Park Geun-hye Impeachment Upheld By South Korean Court – She's Out Of There	[05:48]
phf:	https://github.com/hanshuebner/vlm/blob/master/alpha-emulator/ifunlist.as#L52 e.g. lisp machine instruction DoAssoc, but the code below, all those BIS, SUBL, SUBQ are alpha instruction set	[05:53]
phf:	there's a translation code (in lisp) that takes that alpha body and spits out c equilvalent of the BIS ... SUBL ... etc. sequence	[05:56]
phf:	lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate	[05:58]
davout:	in other women torture news: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aR-fA6OG21w	[07:13]
mircea_popescu:	meanwhile in "totally not torture she's evidently enjoying herself your honor", http://68.media.tumblr.com/b017ae134ec78e38392c2fe15680847c/tumblr_ocdzn3JHCz1ric730o2_400.gif	[07:13]
mircea_popescu:	davout est ce qu'elle jouit un peu?	[07:16]
davout:	i know i would	[07:17]
mircea_popescu:	o shit did i actually get the verb righ for once ?	[07:17]
davout:	almost perfect	[07:18]
davout:	just missed a hyphen	[07:18]
davout:	est-ce	[07:18]
davout:	other than that nailed it	[07:18]
mircea_popescu:	nuts.	[07:19]
mircea_popescu:	I was with ben_vulpes at dildo forge, knee deep in girl spunk	[07:20]
mircea_popescu:	i said how come the men here suffer like they do ?	[07:20]
mircea_popescu:	phf the story of alpha is perhaps one of the best illustrations of the fundamentally anti-intellectual stance and calling of the female state. 1980s true 64 bit architecture, well supported (openvms started there, ffs, go revolutionize shit in 2015 with the remnants of 1980s tech). "sold" to fiorina's company, never heard from again, because gotta prop up intel.	[07:25]
mircea_popescu:	phf it's ogni/ch'entrate not ogne / ch'intrate, btw :D	[07:40]
mircea_popescu:	you totally gotta to eat more varied cunt, i can tell by your vowels your gyneceum's monocultural!	[07:41]
deedbot:	http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/83747C8EA3613D6D3DEEEDE006197672FCB135ABA18188DB332E25098C44C765 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1650...4657 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '202.130.103.22 (ssh-rsa key from 202.130.103.22 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt> ' (wtt22.smartinfo.com.hk. HK)	[08:58]
deedbot:	http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/83747C8EA3613D6D3DEEEDE006197672FCB135ABA18188DB332E25098C44C765 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1622...1153 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '202.130.103.22 (ssh-rsa key from 202.130.103.22 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt> ' (wtt22.smartinfo.com.hk. HK)	[08:58]
asciilifeform:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624127 << the classic alpha ver you described was in one of the subdirs, aha. and a recent g5 one (that dks mentioned to me in 2010 when he delivered the long-awaited genera alpha to my rupturefarm)	[09:26]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 10:39 phf: asciilifeform: if you spent time with it though, you'll realize that it's an assembly dump of the original emulator written for alpha, and the "emulator" part is actually a combination of c and lisp necessary to ~translate original alpha assembly into portable-ish c~	[09:26]
asciilifeform:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624127 << the c src i linked to does not appear to match this description, seems to be honest emulator	[09:27]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 10:39 phf: asciilifeform: if you spent time with it though, you'll realize that it's an assembly dump of the original emulator written for alpha, and the "emulator" part is actually a combination of c and lisp necessary to ~translate original alpha assembly into portable-ish c~	[09:27]
asciilifeform:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624129 << mno	[09:27]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 10:43 phf: i don't quite remember, what goes where, but i'm pretty sure the emulator.c that you linked is a frankenstein that primarily emulates alpha, though it has some signifcant knowledge about what the alpha emulator does, so it's not quite qemu, but something a lot scarrier	[09:27]
asciilifeform:	phf: link to yours some time ?	[09:28]
asciilifeform:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624146 << alpha was already half-dead when hp swallowed compaq, in '02. iirc compaq shitburied it in '01 and sold all rights to intel, who proclaimed the arch now known as 'itanic' as its replacement.	[09:33]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 12:25 mircea_popescu: phf the story of alpha is perhaps one of the best illustrations of the fundamentally anti-intellectual stance and calling of the female state. 1980s true 64 bit architecture, well supported (openvms started there, ffs, go revolutionize shit in 2015 with the remnants of 1980s tech). "sold" to fiorina's company, never heard from again, because gotta prop up intel.	[09:33]
mircea_popescu:	iirc it was late 90s	[09:33]
asciilifeform:	amd hired the designers away	[09:33]
mircea_popescu:	yeah it was ishitsomething, itembel, i dun recall.	[09:33]
asciilifeform:	and turned from a sort of 'cyrix' , piss clones maker, into actual cpu house	[09:33]
mircea_popescu:	aha	[09:34]
mircea_popescu:	lasted about as their professional lives did, also.	[09:34]
mircea_popescu:	amd couldn't hire a new set.	[09:34]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: 'itanium', vliw monster for which nobody was ever able to make a useful compiler	[09:34]
mircea_popescu:	yeah, i recall it wasn't ever actually deployed in any meaningful sense. ielbrus.	[09:34]
asciilifeform:	afaik only known working examples are in usg heathen pits	[09:35]
mircea_popescu:	same as elbrus yes.	[09:35]
mircea_popescu:	"a technology so powerful, so secret, it needn't even exist!"	[09:35]
mircea_popescu:	the nuke totally fucked up their brains.	[09:35]
* asciilifeform	had a prof in uni who taught systems architecture (cpu design) with itanic as 'what not to do'	[09:36]
asciilifeform:	re alphas, i am rather fond of the alpha, i have several here, possibly mentioned before	[09:38]
asciilifeform:	not quite 'fits in head' machine, but 'fits in book'	[09:38]
asciilifeform:	one perverse fact, is that microshit had a winblowz ecosystem for it, ready to go, it could have been he 'designated winner' in intel's place. except -- no, because gotta target the konsoomer chump junk ...	[09:41]
asciilifeform:	( the sane folx, who had alphas with tru64, openvms, etc, went 'wtf why would i even think of winblowz' -- which wouldn't do. whole edifice 'musted die' )	[09:42]
mircea_popescu:	ah i recall that, windows nt	[09:47]
mircea_popescu:	well, anyway, i suppose it is a good thing the intelligent people involved could you know, pursue their own self-determined will and etcetera. who knows how many glorious flights of amateur rc airplanes this obviously reasonable arrangement gave the world!	[09:48]
mircea_popescu:	not to mention of all the truly priceless fishing and whatnot else, history hasn't recorded.	[09:49]
Framedragger:	i like my rc airplanes. "the will of history necessitates you to X" has a marx'ified hegelian vibe :p	[09:50]
mod6:	mornin'	[09:53]
Framedragger:	o/	[09:53]
mircea_popescu:	oyesitdoes.	[09:54]
mircea_popescu:	adolescence is the perceiving of boundless possibilities and maturity comes with the comprehension of the bounds.	[09:55]
Framedragger:	myeah #trilema is basically valgrind.	[09:57]
mircea_popescu:	but, as the eternally mentioned bottle well informs : the above has any merit only inasmuch it rankles the subject himself. otherwise it's nothing and besides there's many ways to, in brick pollitt's words, "hear that little click"	[10:01]
mircea_popescu:	so all is not lost! stupor abounds and thanks to the ever advancing technologee is now cheaper than ever!	[10:02]
mircea_popescu:	meanwhile at spiked ball ranch, http://68.media.tumblr.com/b9d67860081dce95976c346981a1bc71/tumblr_obxnfzrDdZ1s4jw4io1_1280.jpg	[10:03]
asciilifeform:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624188 << i built myself a 'games box' , not long ago, 'to unwind', but turned out that the part of my head that was able to enjoy this, had atrophied, found myself constantly 'if i'm this awake, oughta be running $experiment, finishing up $unfinisheds', etc. ended up giving the (princely) fuckofftron to brother to play with.	[10:15]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 15:02 mircea_popescu: so all is not lost! stupor abounds and thanks to the ever advancing technologee is now cheaper than ever!	[10:15]
asciilifeform:	somehow, long ago internalized mircea_popescu's above point re the model airplanes.	[10:16]
asciilifeform:	'if not you, then who' (tm) (r)	[10:17]
mircea_popescu:	yeah, it's not lost on me that i'm the loudest preacher of continence in a cloister of monks muchly more restrained and disciplined than myself.	[10:17]
mircea_popescu:	i suppose that's why they have that "excluding present company" device.	[10:18]
trinque:	asciilifeform: getting rejected by dulap with that ssh key I gave ya.	[11:37]
asciilifeform:	trinque: you gotta log in as shown in the recipe	[11:37]
trinque:	oops, k.	[11:37]
asciilifeform:	trinque: i.e. your login is 'tunnel', not 'deedbot'	[11:42]
trinque:	ding	[11:44]
asciilifeform:	worx?	[11:44]
trinque:	ayep	[11:45]
trinque:	connecting trb to it now	[11:45]
deedbot:	http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/0376A22D7C6DDA3C6BCF95FADF960352C32B7EC823CB87C4197DEE78BA0E4D9F << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1489...1137 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '213.182.76.82 (ssh-rsa key from 213.182.76.82 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt> ' (213-182-76-82.ip.welcomeitalia.it. IT)	[11:49]
deedbot:	http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/0376A22D7C6DDA3C6BCF95FADF960352C32B7EC823CB87C4197DEE78BA0E4D9F << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1580...0613 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '213.182.76.82 (ssh-rsa key from 213.182.76.82 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt> ' (213-182-76-82.ip.welcomeitalia.it. IT)	[11:49]
Framedragger:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624048 << feltbad, so wrote that stupid symlink and fs profiling tool that no-one wanted to do. results later. while at it: anyone knows if CLOCK_MONOTONIC has sufficient resolution for profiling? asciilifeform? allegedly - yes.	[11:49]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 03:46 mircea_popescu: Framedragger i don't get it, you graphed some functions ? or ?	[11:49]
Framedragger:	getting ~4000-7000ns for symlink resolution to real path for a 1mn symlink dir structure, e.g.	[11:50]
asciilifeform:	that's slightly slower, looks like, than the old db..	[11:50]
* Framedragger	spent longer than wants to admit sorting out his heap and valgrind'ing. too much python is bad for a person	[11:51]
Framedragger:	orly? this is ns (10^-9), mind you. hm. and this is just resolution of path with single symlink in it	[11:51]
asciilifeform:	ok backtracking : what means 'resolution'	[11:52]
Framedragger:	sorry - yeah	[11:52]
asciilifeform:	does this include the actual read ?	[11:52]
Framedragger:	no	[11:52]
asciilifeform:	aah	[11:52]
asciilifeform:	also, on what	[11:52]
asciilifeform:	ssd ?	[11:52]
Framedragger:	asciilifeform: call to `readlink()`.	[11:52]
Framedragger:	yes, ssd	[11:52]
asciilifeform:	and on top of what (ext4 ? )	[11:52]
Framedragger:	ssd under docker fs, later - real disk	[11:52]
Framedragger:	ext4, yes	[11:53]
asciilifeform:	and connected how ? ( sata2 ? 3 ? )	[11:53]
Framedragger:	uhh	[11:53]
asciilifeform:	wtf is 'dockerfs'	[11:53]
Framedragger:	note, it's just some additional syscalls, re docker	[11:53]
Framedragger:	will get a way to test real disk soon, didn't want to run on personal trashy PC, hence shitty server	[11:53]
asciilifeform:	to rephrase, this would tell something useful if we had with what to directly compare it with -- what operation in ye olde bdb would this measure correspond to ?	[11:54]
Framedragger:	aha, right. i haven't even looked at bdb.	[11:54]
Framedragger:	what i want to do later when i find time is, actually read file, too, of course.	[11:54]
Framedragger:	for now, just generated 1mn symlinks with names corresponding to transaction hash hex.	[11:55]
asciilifeform:	let's put down in the log, what exactly ye olde bdb does, that eats 99+% of trb's wall clock:	[11:55]
asciilifeform:	it exists (wallet idiocy aside) in trb for 1 purpose and 1 purpose only	[11:55]
asciilifeform:	... so that a 256-bit turd, e.g., 3ec455a2a84e978687a3990cec73f36b324fbd28e03603c6d9fc52018b001558, can be taken and matched to a block # where said tx lives.	[11:55]
asciilifeform:	and likewise when a new block comes, all of the tx in it, get indexed this way.	[11:56]
Framedragger:	so the 'matching' (index lookup) is the 99% here, right?	[11:56]
asciilifeform:	lookup+store	[11:57]
Framedragger:	aha, right.	[11:57]
asciilifeform:	btw i will also put down in the log, one very simple possible algorithm for a 'txidx-fs' :	[11:57]
asciilifeform:	picture a 16GB contiguous block of ssd. you cut it up so that it corresponds to 2^32 x 32bits.	[11:58]
Framedragger:	(yeah btw, just ftr, symlink creation under populated dir structure (`ln -s files_f1/block35461.txt dc/dc89c1f2b58909d3814b250a731a9b9b791b092759553e3ba6579ffaad3a7565`) is slow. however, the creation was done using shellscript, need to move to c to be able to actually profile with precision.)	[11:58]
asciilifeform:	now you store the table as follows: the top 32 bits (e.g., 3ec455a2 from above) are an array index into this table	[11:59]
asciilifeform:	if there are no collisions (i.e. there is no other tx on the disk whose id begins with 3ec455a2) then that entry in the array IS the block index where the tx lives.	[11:59]
asciilifeform:	after which finding the actual tx is an O(N) operation in the block, with small N (the tx in the block)	[12:00]
Framedragger:	aha, right! so it's basically a (small) hashtable.	[12:00]
Framedragger:	(right?)	[12:00]
asciilifeform:	lemme finish plox	[12:00]
Framedragger:	sorry.	[12:00]
asciilifeform:	BUT if there are collisions, the upper bit of the 32bit entry, is set. and then we know that the lower 31, are an index into another contiguous array	[12:01]
asciilifeform:	and there we find ~lists of block indices~, so the machine might have to try 2 or 3 blocks before it finds tx.	[12:01]
asciilifeform:	how to ~write~ to this data structure is, i think, obvious to the reader, i do not need to describe.	[12:02]
asciilifeform:	anyway this is the simplest physically-possible scheme.	[12:02]
trinque:	oh jesus docker Framedragger	[12:02]
asciilifeform:	but, thing is, it won't work any better on mechanical disk than the old bdb. and imho it is quite impossible to make variable-length tx bitcoin work well on mechanical disk, with modern spamola level.	[12:02]
* trinque	gets his knotted rope	[12:02]
asciilifeform:	however it does have the advantage of not using 10,000,001 lines of ext4 open sores crapolade for anything.	[12:03]
asciilifeform:	this whole thing would probably fit in ~1,000 lines of c.	[12:03]
asciilifeform:	and in-head.	[12:03]
Framedragger:	trinque: it's just a kindergarten way of wrapping up some syscalls. will obviously benchmark outside it later. i wasn't completely certain that my tool wouldn't trash the host fs. :)	[12:03]
Framedragger:	asciilifeform: hmm, very nice. i suppose it's as close to fixed-length as is possible given current bitcoin	[12:04]
asciilifeform:	Framedragger: it is literally the smallest number of moving parts i can think of , that'd do the job.	[12:04]
Framedragger:	efficient seeking.	[12:04]
asciilifeform:	also on a reasonable box you can keep the l1 table in ram	[12:04]
asciilifeform:	so then you have 1 disk seek per tx, rather than 2.	[12:05]
asciilifeform:	( or, in the case of ext4 or other konsoomer fs, fuck-knows-how-many ! )	[12:06]
Framedragger:	asciilifeform: wait, what is "block index"? just the integer denoting block number?	[12:06]
asciilifeform:	Framedragger: correct	[12:06]
asciilifeform:	block where tx lives.	[12:07]
Framedragger:	why the need for "the machine might have to try 2 or 3 blocks before it finds tx" then? and if so, then no guarantee of only 1 seek?	[12:07]
asciilifeform:	Framedragger: it depends how many collisions per 32bit head	[12:07]
deedbot:	http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/7FF10FFD5E7F7EE6C2497D20452061FB8713C20F904A7A86B21EE093A5E7D254 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1391...6403 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '79.98.16.61 (ssh-rsa key from 79.98.16.61 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt> ' (a61.ip.network-consulting.fr. FR)	[12:08]
deedbot:	http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/7FF10FFD5E7F7EE6C2497D20452061FB8713C20F904A7A86B21EE093A5E7D254 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1797...3053 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '79.98.16.61 (ssh-rsa key from 79.98.16.61 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt> ' (a61.ip.network-consulting.fr. FR)	[12:08]
asciilifeform:	one seek, on a standard disk, gives you at least 4kB (blocks are 512b, but no disk made in past 20 years actually ~stops at~ 512)	[12:08]
asciilifeform:	remember, we are contemplating contiguous blocks on disk	[12:08]
Framedragger:	oh i finally understood, literally all there is when one seeks to location 3ec455a2 is a list of block numbers. (or single block number.)	[12:08]
asciilifeform:	aha.	[12:08]
asciilifeform:	if you're willing to blow another 16GB, you can have an l2 table	[12:10]
Framedragger:	this is quite nice, and as you say, seek operation already gives a small chunk which should cover most/all tx for current state of affairs (total number of transactions)...	[12:10]
asciilifeform:	on same principle	[12:10]
asciilifeform:	Framedragger: it's good for many, many times the current cumulative-tx	[12:10]
asciilifeform:	you'll have somewhere between 0 and 2 , statistically, tx per 32bit table entry.	[12:11]
Framedragger:	is this the first time you articulated this approach here? i think that's the best on can have for fs-tx-db	[12:11]
asciilifeform:	yes, first time, i kept waiting for someone to open a schoolbook and describe this very elementary algo	[12:11]
asciilifeform:	it has obvious minus, in that you need a kernel driver	[12:13]
asciilifeform:	if you want to actually have the contiguous 16GB	[12:13]
asciilifeform:	however mircea_popescu's 'let's patch ext4' has same.	[12:13]
Framedragger:	at least i have the excuse of not having looked at the bdb problem / staying away from trb for the time being :p	[12:14]
asciilifeform:	i dare say the tabular algo is simple enough to actually be implementable.	[12:14]
Framedragger:	i'm not sure if you do need driver	[12:14]
asciilifeform:	Framedragger: if you want your own fs, and to write to contiguous disk, you do	[12:14]
Framedragger:	here i have an ssd seek profiler which just needs root	[12:14]
asciilifeform:	who the fuck wants trb running as root	[12:15]
asciilifeform:	(you may as well stuff it in the kernel, then)	[12:15]
Framedragger:	it uses `lseek64()`	[12:15]
Framedragger:	have separate service taking care of that? i mean, kernel driver is this kind of 'externality', too (and also ring0)	[12:16]
asciilifeform:	the Right Thing would probably be to have a very simple kernel driver that takes a specially-marked disk partition and gives userland trb linear use of it, as plain array	[12:16]
asciilifeform:	...rather than to have any serious number crunching in kernelspace	[12:17]
Framedragger:	makes sense.	[12:17]
asciilifeform:	also this is probably obvious, but you want separate disk for this	[12:17]
asciilifeform:	physically	[12:17]
asciilifeform:	from the one you are running from	[12:17]
asciilifeform:	if you want serious speed.	[12:17]
Framedragger:	sure	[12:17]
asciilifeform:	ideally you would even have separate disks for blocks and tx indices.	[12:18]
asciilifeform:	ok, now question for ben_vulpes , trinque , mircea_popescu , et al : anybody got a quick c proggy that will eat blkcut's blocks and produce a linear list of tx ? i'd like to actually calculate the current 32bit tabular collision rate.	[12:19]
asciilifeform:	it is statistically possible that we don't even have ONE collision yet	[12:19]
asciilifeform:	(and thereby a 16GB l1 table would give you wholly in-memory index for ~all tx lookups)	[12:20]
asciilifeform:	btw Framedragger , we can do 1 better than 'block index'	[12:22]
ben_vulpes:	asciilifeform: not a c proggy, no	[12:22]
asciilifeform:	say we put down blocks on 1024 byte alignments.	[12:22]
Framedragger:	as in, disk/partition alignments?	[12:22]
asciilifeform:	nono listne	[12:22]
asciilifeform:	then a 31bit (remember, highest bit means 'go to l2 table') offset gives you a 2^^41 bit space in which your table entry can point to the beginning of a block.	[12:23]
asciilifeform:	or, rather, to where-to-start-looking-for-tx	[12:23]
asciilifeform:	^	[12:23]
asciilifeform:	so we dispense with the O(N) dumb search inside-block	[12:23]
deedbot:	http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/1B44E66975AB5EE7B22A779D4B31F07CE8CE336A45DE02B74BAD206055C62130 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1594...7037 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '93.90.180.151 (ssh-rsa key from 93.90.180.151 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt> ' (Unknown DE)	[12:25]
deedbot:	http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/1B44E66975AB5EE7B22A779D4B31F07CE8CE336A45DE02B74BAD206055C62130 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1711...0703 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '93.90.180.151 (ssh-rsa key from 93.90.180.151 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt> ' (Unknown DE)	[12:25]
asciilifeform:	Framedragger: alignment in this case means that we can point ~inside~ blocks, supposing they are stored linearly on disk	[12:26]
asciilifeform:	so long as we are ok with having to chug through 1023 bytes of 'not here yet!'	[12:26]
asciilifeform:	which costs us 0 because no disk made in last 20 yrs reads any less than 4kB on 1 seek.	[12:26]
asciilifeform:	point being, to point at a tx sitting on a multi-TB disk, you don't need to be able to address it ~bytewise~	[12:27]
asciilifeform:	thinkaboutit.	[12:27]
Framedragger:	bear with my slowness, can you clarify how it looks like if there's a collision in the initial lookup?	[12:28]
Framedragger:	in this case.	[12:28]
asciilifeform:	it goes to l2 table	[12:28]
asciilifeform:	which can take 2 basic forms, depending on your storage budget	[12:28]
asciilifeform:	if you're 'rich', it can be a table entirely like l1	[12:29]
asciilifeform:	where if top bit of the entry is not set, you have your where-to-go-to-find-tx-on-disk result	[12:29]
asciilifeform:	and if set, you gotta look at the next machine word (each entry has a certain amount of space for collisions)	[12:29]
asciilifeform:	'look at next' can also mean 'go to l3', if you're willing to budget another 16G.	[12:30]
asciilifeform:	and so forth.	[12:30]
asciilifeform:	the most basic setup has an l1 which immediately proceeds to the 'slow' table (where you have to look at multiple offsets in case of collision, to find your tx)	[12:31]
Framedragger:	right! ahh that's nice. (so just to clarify, the 1024 byte block trick wouldn't work if there's a collision (unless additional budget / w/e))	[12:31]
asciilifeform:	this form will almost certainly suffice for another decade of trb	[12:31]
asciilifeform:	considering that we have, what, 200 mil tx and l1 table gives you 4billion slots.	[12:31]
Framedragger:	yeah, given actual tx amounts.. 250mn vs. 2^32	[12:31]
asciilifeform:	aha.	[12:31]
Framedragger:	yeah.	[12:31]
Framedragger:	well that sounds like a very decent idea. :)	[12:32]
asciilifeform:	Framedragger: the 1024bt thing works in all cases, it simply means that you don't have to point to beginnings of blocks, but to a place very near the tx	[12:32]
asciilifeform:	see, we store the blocks linearly	[12:32]
asciilifeform:	this also abolishes the cost of 'budget 1MB per block'	[12:32]
asciilifeform:	now you can store them back-to-back	[12:32]
asciilifeform:	because you can point inside'em in the index.	[12:33]
Framedragger:	yeah i forget sometimes. fixed block length is nice for this...	[12:33]
asciilifeform:	fixed 1MB would give you O(1) block seek.	[12:33]
Framedragger:	ahh, yeah okay, back-to-back you mean exactly that, not having to allocate 1MB per block.	[12:33]
asciilifeform:	however block index is not large -- say we have 500,000 blocks, and you want to know where on disk lives its beginning, and your disk takes 64bit lba addressor. so you need 500,000 * 8bytes == 4,000,000 bytes ! 3 floppy's worth	[12:35]
asciilifeform:	except that you don't actually need byte-addressing !	[12:35]
asciilifeform:	that is, you don't need 8 bytes to say which 4kB slice has the beginning	[12:36]
asciilifeform:	so in practice, you can have O(1) seeks ~while~ storing the blocks back-to-back in a classical trb.	[12:36]
Framedragger:	(i see how good it is to be aware of how actual disks read data here. some theoretician would propose a pointer-exact-location scheme instead...)	[12:37]
asciilifeform:	if you want to consider 'what would give best performance on the iron we have, with minimal moving parts, with the trb we have' this is what comes out.	[12:37]
asciilifeform:	i was recently considering implementing a similar scheme for phuctor, and realized today that it would work entirely well in trb.	[12:38]
Framedragger:	it's a really Good Thing that the hashing function which spits out transaction hashes gives uniform distribution. no congestion / too many collisions expected, and this scheme leverages that.	[12:40]
asciilifeform:	btw mircea_popescu's suggestion from last night, to dispense with 'blocks' as separate class of object, and simply store sequence of tx, with 'this was in block B' field added -- would work quite well with this scheme.	[12:40]
asciilifeform:	now store each tx on a 4096bt 'cylinder' boundary, and you're golden	[12:41]
asciilifeform:	the table can index individual tx.	[12:41]
Framedragger:	i guess one can imagine a single sequence of tx then, simply.	[12:41]
asciilifeform:	aha.	[12:41]
Framedragger:	aha right.	[12:41]
Framedragger:	decent ideas, what can i say	[12:42]
asciilifeform:	imho the 'hard part' is not even to implement this table, it is freshman homework, but to unravel the liquishit in trb and learn where to even put the lookup/write !	[12:43]
Framedragger:	yeah that's one reason i'm not too attracted to trb, tbh, the amount of sewage gruntwork required to decouple shit from the monolith.	[12:44]
asciilifeform:	http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/db.cpp?v=makefiles#0329 << starting here.	[12:44]
asciilifeform:	the gnarly part is to dissect all of shitoshi's idiot special cases (e.g. 'ReadOwnerTxes')	[12:45]
asciilifeform:	and reduce all of the bdbisms to calls to table ops.	[12:45]
asciilifeform:	or, for instance, what is ReadDiskTx .	[12:46]
asciilifeform:	(as far as i can see, it is unused code)	[12:46]
Framedragger:	hmh, at least functions make up not the worst interface seen, but still lotsa work and weird mutable shit sprayed all around, i imagine	[12:47]
trinque:	on the subj, still waiting for my node to shut down to connect the wire to dulap	[13:01]
trinque:	god forbid the disk always be in a coherent state, eh?	[13:01]
asciilifeform:	trinque: i've found that 'kill', which syncs the db, followed by kill -9, which nukes shitoshi's pointless wait idiocy, worx 100%.	[13:01]
asciilifeform:	with 0 loss.	[13:02]
trinque:	that's right, it's doing a sleep or two of several minutes	[13:02]
asciilifeform:	0 reason to let it	[13:02]
asciilifeform:	winblowz culture.	[13:02]
trinque:	what, thing needs to cool?!	[13:02]
asciilifeform:	(some time grep for the sleeps, it is instructive)	[13:02]
asciilifeform:	idiot put them ~everywhere	[13:03]
asciilifeform:	i am nearly convinced that he was, at one time, a microshit employee.	[13:03]
asciilifeform:	nobody else does this!11	[13:03]
asciilifeform:	Framedragger, ben_vulpes : i predict that there will be few enough collisions that you can shunt ~all~ collision cases off to an O(N) lookup table, for next decade, with ~0 measurable loss of avg.case performance.	[13:06]
asciilifeform:	(lookup table consisting of, literally, rows of full txid followed by where-on-disk, that you'd chug through whenever collisionbit is set)	[13:06]
Framedragger:	yeah, makes sense to me (on average, current likelihood of particular 32 bit entry being populated is ~ < 6%)	[13:08]
asciilifeform:	so, literally,	[13:08]
asciilifeform:	if (table[txidtop32] & 0x80000000) return linearlookup(txidtop32)	[13:09]
asciilifeform:	else return disklookup(table[txidtop32])	[13:09]
asciilifeform:	.	[13:09]
asciilifeform:	'linearlookup' is the slow-table from earlier	[13:11]
asciilifeform:	disklookup is the 'go to nth cylinder and before you get to n+1st cylinder, THERE's yer tx' from earlier still.	[13:11]
asciilifeform:	and you have here ~whole thing.	[13:11]
asciilifeform:	( i can already picture mircea_popescu spitting out his breakfast, 'modern hdd dun have cylinder, you nut' -- except, it in effect DOES, fetches massive blox , whether mechanical or ssd, by design, for ages now )	[13:12]
Framedragger:	there's an assumption as max num of collisions here, of course, but obvs in practical terms it's a very safe assumption...	[13:16]
Framedragger:	as to*	[13:16]
asciilifeform:	there is not.	[13:16]
Framedragger:	oh	[13:16]
asciilifeform:	if you get moar collisions, you simply end up in the slowtable moar often.	[13:16]
Framedragger:	and the slow-table.. hm	[13:17]
asciilifeform:	if you start seeing them ~regularly~ (say, trb makes it to 50 yrs from nao) you put in a l2 table.	[13:17]
asciilifeform:	then you get another century.	[13:17]
asciilifeform:	(i would hope that l1 will last until trbi..)	[13:17]
Framedragger:	right right, not disputing that.	[13:17]
asciilifeform:	do the arithmetic, it isn't as if anyone can cancel the 'block per 10min' thing.	[13:17]
Framedragger:	yeah. hmh - i guess that's it. literally. nice scheme	[13:18]
asciilifeform:	there is 1 potential nuance,	[13:18]
asciilifeform:	enemy might start to 'mine' txids	[13:18]
asciilifeform:	so that they collide	[13:18]
asciilifeform:	but this'd cost'em moar than simply to mine.	[13:19]
asciilifeform:	(you could in fact use a repurposed miner, for this, as i understand)	[13:19]
asciilifeform:	at any rate, working around this idiocy would be very cheap -- say we index by top32 of keccak(txid) instead of plain txid. in the event of.	[13:20]
asciilifeform:	much cheaper to reindex a trb node, what, 1 night, than for enemy to bake new asics.	[13:20]
asciilifeform:	so this scenario, imho, is out.	[13:20]
asciilifeform:	(enemy is welcome to bash his skull to a pancake against the cement wall)	[13:21]
Framedragger:	while at it, and i'm guessing it's in the logs.., i wonder when was the last time some tried to come up with an approximation what the costs to get to >50% network hashing power would be	[13:24]
Framedragger:	i'm guessing that an interested state could totally do that	[13:24]
Framedragger:	and yeah, this 'generate collisions' scenario seems like a harder version of 'just mine'	[13:24]
asciilifeform:	Framedragger: there was old thread with mircea_popescu , where he stated that usg and china attempted it at same time, and perma-deadlocked	[13:24]
asciilifeform:	iirc in 2014.	[13:24]
Framedragger:	attempted.. citing internal intelligence of course, or something	[13:25]
asciilifeform:	aha	[13:25]
Framedragger:	hard to believe, but then, i should read logs at least	[13:25]
asciilifeform:	Framedragger: the other thing is that it is quite impossible to come up with meaningful cost figure	[13:26]
asciilifeform:	because the cost, to someone who ALREADY has fab capability , is miniscule	[13:26]
asciilifeform:	whereas to someone without (e.g. the folx here) it is ~infinite.	[13:26]
trinque:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624424 << what, it contradicts yours?	[13:27]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 18:25 Framedragger: hard to believe, but then, i should read logs at least	[13:27]
Framedragger:	:p	[13:29]
Framedragger:	asciilifeform: yeah, i see what you mean	[13:30]
asciilifeform:	Framedragger: http://preshing.com/20110504/hash-collision-probabilities << re earlier. quick likbez on collision probability calculation using 'birthday theorem'	[13:30]
asciilifeform:	http://preshing.com/20160314/leapfrog-probing << from same www, also notbad.jpg illustration of schoolbook hash tables.	[13:32]
Framedragger:	aha, so there's high probability that there will be a collision across the entire space.	[13:33]
asciilifeform:	Framedragger: just as you do not need 366 people in a room for a birthday collision.	[13:33]
asciilifeform:	(~guaranteed at 80 or so)	[13:33]
Framedragger:	sure, yeah! nice illustrations there	[13:33]
asciilifeform:	ought to help those folx for whom kindergarten happened long, long ago, to picture the subj of today's thread.	[13:35]
asciilifeform:	i'll round this out by observing that potentially you might be able to get away with less than 32bits of table (i.e. less than 16GB of space)	[13:36]
asciilifeform:	depending on the collision rate.	[13:37]
asciilifeform:	i like 32 (recall, 31, we need 1 bit for collision marker) because it translates cleanly to our physical machine.	[13:37]
asciilifeform:	but can use, e.g., 30, 29...	[13:37]
asciilifeform:	if 'poor'.	[13:37]
asciilifeform:	the scheme 'degrades gracefully'.	[13:38]
asciilifeform:	the ~other~ thing i'll point out, is that you do not in fact need 16GB of ram, to implement that table , if you can do it in the kernel	[13:40]
asciilifeform:	you can use x64's page table to 'cheat' and store a sparse form !	[13:40]
asciilifeform:	but THIS i will leave as an exercise for the reader.	[13:40]
asciilifeform:	( however it will be intuitively obvious, to anyone familiar with x86/x64 and similar archs, that this is physically possible. i.e. you never actually need to store a contiguous empty GB in memory, if you can manipulate the page table )	[13:41]
Framedragger:	heh you can even use things like nx bit if not wanting to reorganize table, i would guess!	[13:43]
asciilifeform:	why would you ever not have the nx bit set for a motherfucking table	[13:43]
Framedragger:	that's a horrible idea for sure, but hey, free space to cheat in	[13:44]
asciilifeform:	you don't need any moar kludges, the scheme described, will work.	[13:44]
asciilifeform:	with hard guarantees, even.	[13:44]
Framedragger:	no, of course, you just mentioned possible cheats, but you probably meant something more 'robust'.	[13:45]
asciilifeform:	i meant 'cheats' that use the machine as-prescribed and save multiple GB.	[13:45]
asciilifeform:	rather than 'let's put cock into gas tank because it fits'	[13:45]
deedbot:	http://trinque.org/2017/03/10/deedbot-wired-to-dulap/ << trinque - deedbot.org wired to dulap	[13:47]
asciilifeform:	congrats trinque !!	[13:48]
trinque:	thanks to you sir	[13:48]
trinque:	if you want a reciprocal wire lemme know	[13:48]
asciilifeform:	i very well might, shortly.	[13:48]
asciilifeform:	(would like to test 2way 'wiring' first on a non-infrastructural set of boxen )	[13:49]
asciilifeform:	it'd suck if dulap ~and~ deedbot choked in same day, say.	[13:49]
asciilifeform:	'if one synchronized swimmer drowns, must the others?' (tm) (unknown)	[13:49]
trinque:	aha, lol	[13:50]
asciilifeform:	trinque: fwiw i still know of at least 1 unsolved tickle re 'wires' -- how to avoid multiple redundant connections	[13:56]
asciilifeform:	(right now, e.g., zoolag and dulap happily also find each other over ordinary peer table and connect plaintext)	[13:56]
asciilifeform:	i'd like to think of an elegant solution to this	[13:57]
asciilifeform:	(can, say, ban them from talking on 8333 to each other in iptables, but this is stupid because then they will not share the perfectly-good ip with OTHER peers)	[13:57]
asciilifeform:	and yes i could put in a '--noplaintextpeer=x,y,z...' flag, BUT	[13:58]
asciilifeform:	BUT this would make it very easy for the enemy to determine who is 'wired' to whom	[13:58]
asciilifeform:	by looking at who never plaintcp's to whom on 8333 !	[13:59]
asciilifeform:	so we have dilemma.	[13:59]
asciilifeform:	maybe mircea_popescu can cut it, with his knife.	[13:59]
asciilifeform:	( and ~yes~ right now it is very easy to see 'who wired to whom' by looking at ssh, but in the future we will presumably route multi-hop, via a gossiptron, and it will be less obvious )	[14:00]
asciilifeform:	at any rate this is a 'theoretical' problem, imho 'not burning'.	[14:01]
asciilifeform:	!~later tell Framedragger the table system can be easily prototyped , without writing any kernel code, by using 16G file on ordinary disk. (at the obvious speed penalty.)	[14:10]
jhvh1:	asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.	[14:10]
asciilifeform:	(on ordinary userland fs, which you have now.)	[14:11]
Framedragger:	asciilifeform: yeah! i may have time / want to do this in ~april. just to be clear, there's really no way to have underlying userland fs allocate a contiguous block, right?	[14:11]
asciilifeform:	( i wonder if there are any traditional fs that will actually give you 16G of contiguous blocks, if asked nicely )	[14:11]
Framedragger:	ah, that's the q i guess	[14:12]
asciilifeform:	Framedragger: you asked at same time as i .. lol	[14:12]
asciilifeform:	afaik answer is 0	[14:12]
asciilifeform:	but worth investigating imho.	[14:12]
Framedragger:	also, wonder if there could be a relevant linux cap'ability for allowing raw access to given /dev/block. but maybe not.	[14:14]
asciilifeform:	Framedragger: there is a udev trick, iirc, for giving particular users access to a given raw block dev	[14:15]
asciilifeform:	but you'll need to dedicate an entire disk	[14:15]
asciilifeform:	at any rate imho the flat-file variant oughta be tried 1st.	[14:15]
Framedragger:	well, 'disk' could just be partition which isn't a bad thing anyway, right?	[14:15]
asciilifeform:	then it can be readily mapped to physical disk.	[14:15]
Framedragger:	sure!	[14:15]
asciilifeform:	in fact it can be simply a file descriptor given on command line.	[14:16]
asciilifeform:	trb will not even need to know whether it was given a real disk, or flat file.	[14:16]
asciilifeform:	for the ultimate variant, where we don't even store 'blocks' as such, but merely sequence of specially-marked tx, you ~will~ need whole disk.	[14:17]
asciilifeform:	for completeness, i will note that you can model any 'whole disk' variant with an enormous flat file, in userland, at some speed penalty.	[14:19]
asciilifeform:	(i can make a 400GB file on my disk, right now, and it will cost me a ~constant factor vs 'raw disk' i/o)	[14:19]
Framedragger:	ah yeah, iirc some applications even use this 'descriptor passing' technique so minimise high permissions level exposure (but don't recall). quite robust	[14:23]
asciilifeform:	to borrow from mircea_popescu et al, 'it works if you work it'	[14:23]
asciilifeform:	now, 1 more observation, the table scheme described here, can be safely parallelized, for so long as you ensure that the readers are never writing THE same place being elsewhere written.	[14:29]
asciilifeform:	unlike idiot db	[14:30]
asciilifeform:	or civilian file systems.	[14:30]
asciilifeform:	*the readers are never reading THE	[14:31]
asciilifeform:	lol.	[14:31]
Framedragger:	yes, but how to cheaply ensure the latter. you won't have a shitload of locks now will you	[14:32]
asciilifeform:	the reason for this ability, is that you never have 'tree rebalances' or whatever other crapolade general-purpose db, and konsoomer file systems , occupy themselves with !	[14:32]
Framedragger:	(i guess depends on nature of parallel work. e.g. if it's some kind of sequential re-confirm, launch threads with different segments, etc.)	[14:32]
asciilifeform:	Framedragger: all you need is to check a read candidate against the current list of active writes.	[14:33]
Framedragger:	tree rebalance is a feature of a balance binary tree which is sometimes the right tool for the job, cmon :)	[14:33]
asciilifeform:	(in hardware this would be O(1) op, in our reality -- slightly slower)	[14:33]
Framedragger:	i guess i can see that	[14:33]
asciilifeform:	Framedragger: but not right tool for ~this~ job	[14:33]
Framedragger:	s/balance binary/balanced binary/	[14:33]
asciilifeform:	the sha256 is balancing for us.	[14:33]
Framedragger:	of course, i agree, i'm just saying it's not "inherent problem of all db omg"	[14:33]
Framedragger:	yeah.	[14:33]
asciilifeform:	Framedragger: i am increasingly finding that 'general purpose db' is, like the infamous 'vise-grip', The Wrong Tool For Every Job	[14:34]
asciilifeform:	('visegrip' was/is an american gadget, looks rather like cross between pliers, locking forceps, and plumber's wrench, that was pitches as 'The Right Tool For Every Job' when introduced, some time mid-lastcentury)	[14:34]
asciilifeform:	using general-purpose db where performance is a critical concern, inevitably gets you http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-19#1615434 .	[14:35]
a111:	Logged on 2017-02-19 03:54 asciilifeform: (iirc we had a thread where i described how corporate ameritards, if given a problem like phuctor, would happily soak up a few $mil and megawatt of iron)	[14:35]
Framedragger:	those few $mil would be oracle	[14:36]
Framedragger:	heh.	[14:36]
asciilifeform:	observe, gavin, hearn, et al, have specific orders for past 5 or so yrs : 'make it so that bitcoin REQUIRES oracle cluster'	[14:37]
Framedragger:	yeah, i see what you mean, and everything. i'm not convinced that phuctor db is using the most it can from postgres, but neither you nor me have time to investigate this presently, i guess (and i may not be able to do a great job there anyway)	[14:37]
asciilifeform:	Framedragger: i did a good measure of tweaking, and exhausted current time budget for that chore	[14:37]
asciilifeform:	will come back to it at some point	[14:38]
trinque:	I would, in fact, at this point drop postgresql for a persistence layer for CLOS that did not use the thing under the hood.	[14:38]
asciilifeform:	trinque: then i'll need a cl pgp parser	[14:38]
asciilifeform:	which i currently don't have.	[14:38]
asciilifeform:	and a new everything-else	[14:38]
asciilifeform:	(right now it uses an old python lib for wwwtronics)	[14:38]
trinque:	nah nah I have no prescription for phuctor	[14:39]
asciilifeform:	at some point, yes, i'll rewrite it again.	[14:39]
trinque:	we'll make a CL lib for p	[14:39]
trinque:	gpg can go die in obscurity	[14:39]
asciilifeform:	trinque: phuctor is not simply about gpg, recall	[14:39]
asciilifeform:	it is a general-purpose shitrng telescope	[14:39]
asciilifeform:	largely yet-unused in the proper way.	[14:40]
asciilifeform:	we will be busting ssl keys, for instance, at some point	[14:40]
trinque:	aha	[14:40]
asciilifeform:	and who knows, what else.	[14:40]
asciilifeform:	maybe, who the fuck knows, collect enough data re winblows rng defects, via a future 'uci', to break satoshi's keys.	[14:41]
asciilifeform:	('martian' example, but typifies the yet-unknown)	[14:41]
trinque:	there's what, a million or so in the stash? plenty to build asciilifeform's fab.	[14:42]
asciilifeform:	i did say, 'martian example', not immediate plan to action.	[14:42]
asciilifeform:	trinque: incidentally it is not clear, imho, that satoshi's keys are 'edible', they may not be good in practice for getting 'spendable' coin, the popularity of bitcoin per se may well drop catastrophically if you were to move satoshi's coinz	[14:44]
asciilifeform:	i contemplate it as more of a 'demolition charge', when trbi exists.	[14:44]
trinque:	occurs to me that the man might've seen the coins the same way.	[14:46]
asciilifeform:	( http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1009 << my old crackpot piece re subj )	[14:46]
asciilifeform:	and whether d00d burned his hdd, or not, has 0 bearing on whether his keys are, on account of his idiocy, breakable.	[14:48]
Framedragger:	some (very initial) symlink stats - more stuff will have to wait - given a "here are 1mn 'transactions' which symlink to files, resolve links and read from linked files in random order for 100mn times" setup, with one-folder-deep structure, like so: "simple_f1/e5/e5edc34c57d5ea2ea99cfe16d04655aa000c3d7f268022d2b21f95928fa34674 -> /files_f1/99997.txt", most basic stats are:	[15:31]
Framedragger:	Processed 1000000 lines (min/max target numbers seen: 1, 100000) - beginning benchmarks now... [i.e., 'target block' numbers are in this range. 1m symlinks point to 100k files randomly.]	[15:32]
Framedragger:	Uniform randomness report: min hits seen = 871, max hits seen = 1160, avg = 1000.00, sum = 100000000.0, minloc @ 85798, maxloc @ 88837	[15:32]
Framedragger:	Symlink resolve (readlink()) times given 100000000 iterations: min = 949 ns, max = 1353644 ns, avg = 1688.99 ns, stddev = 2502.42 ns, sum = 168899426822.0 ns, minloc @ 41772957, maxloc @ 20095033	[15:32]
Framedragger:	fopen() times given 100000000 iterations: min = 1761 ns, max = 1506074 ns, avg = 2326.51 ns, stddev = 3003.91 ns, sum = 232650578514.0 ns, minloc @ 72539767, maxloc @ 19225446	[15:32]
Framedragger:	fread() times given 100000000 iterations: min = 1189 ns, max = 53879016 ns, avg = 1552.73 ns, stddev = 6917.04 ns, sum = 155273497933.0 ns, minloc @ 2462746, maxloc @ 126806	[15:32]
Framedragger:	fclose() times given 100000000 iterations: min = 645 ns, max = 739202 ns, avg = 741.62 ns, stddev = 1647.59 ns, sum = 74161953610.0 ns, minloc @ 19564589, maxloc @ 67051179	[15:32]
Framedragger:	(fread() was 4k. files are short, with just the number of of 'block' for cross-confirmation and list of 'transactions' as contents.)	[15:32]
Framedragger:	(5ms read on an ssd ain't too pretty, but would have to check distribution of these kinds of tails, i guess.)	[15:34]
Framedragger:	(bbl)	[15:35]
Framedragger:	(ftr: sata 3gbps, ext4, intel SSDSA2CW30, mirror raid.)	[15:40]
asciilifeform:	Framedragger: your figures are probably quite 'optimistic' you have not only ssd, but cache in play	[15:55]
Framedragger:	asciilifeform: you're right, i was meaning to reset caches (`echo 3 >/proc/sys/vm/drop_caches` should be enough i think), but then forgot	[15:56]
Framedragger:	but could be other stuff, too, etc etc.	[15:56]
asciilifeform:	at this point ftr i'm quite firmly convinced that baking in massive open sores shitbucket, e.g. ext4, is The Wrong Thing	[15:57]
asciilifeform:	and not even because of speed.	[15:57]
Framedragger:	no disagreement tbh, i probably know your reasoning	[15:58]
asciilifeform:	i originally favoured it on account of simplicity	[15:59]
Framedragger:	given time, i was also meaning to run lots of strace to see what is in actuality happening with multiple symlinks etc, but maybe sisyphus	[15:59]
asciilifeform:	but in table system, you don't even need to munge indices into strings to make paths with	[15:59]
asciilifeform:	much less to fopen() !	[15:59]
Framedragger:	(anyway, will share tool i wrote if only because couldn't find anything fitting the task out there, but need to polish a bit first, etc.)	[15:59]
Framedragger:	yeah	[15:59]
jurov:	lmao https://github.com/robertfisk/USG/	[16:07]
jurov:	"The USG is Good, not Bad"	[16:08]
asciilifeform:	lol!!	[16:10]
* mircea_popescu	waves	[16:13]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624206 << lol, isn't he endearing ? why do you feel so guilty, yo! about to get married or what.	[16:15]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 16:49 Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624048 << feltbad, so wrote that stupid symlink and fs profiling tool that no-one wanted to do. results later. while at it: anyone knows if CLOCK_MONOTONIC has sufficient resolution for profiling? asciilifeform? allegedly - yes.	[16:15]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624226 << you know, you have the most amusing penchant for asking questions you really don't want answered.	[16:16]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 16:53 asciilifeform: wtf is 'dockerfs'	[16:16]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624209 << more importantly, is it blocking ?	[16:17]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 16:50 asciilifeform: that's slightly slower, looks like, than the old db..	[16:17]
mircea_popescu:	can i run 64 in parallel ?	[16:17]
Framedragger:	in terms of thread-safety, yes (but not in benchmarking tool as it's not using thread-safe posix functions, but then it's not writing anything, either). however, parallel performance not at all certain.	[16:20]
Framedragger:	oh wait, i was wrong re thread-safe functions. kernel takes care of that. has internal locking mechanism when dealing with fread/fwrite etc.	[16:20]
Framedragger:	that said, i'm pessimistic about this whole ext4 thing just like asciilifeform. no reason not to direct time into his latest proposal	[16:21]
mircea_popescu:	it ~should~ work, i ask because man who burned tongue on soup	[16:22]
Framedragger:	apparently calling fclose() while syscall is running on that descriptor in another thread is 'not a good idea' (outcome maybe platform/implementation specific), but that's an avoidable corner case.	[16:23]
Framedragger:	may be*	[16:24]
mircea_popescu:	interesting what people looking to push the whore learn about its substance.	[16:24]
deedbot:	http://trilema.com/2017/zuleika-dobson-or-an-proper-love-story/ << Trilema - Zuleika Dobson, or An Proper Love Story	[16:25]
mircea_popescu:	^ me heartily recommends, this fundamental novel of the republic, to the critical eye of all.	[16:26]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624229 << at some point you'll have to decide if you care or don't care about the old harlot.	[16:26]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 16:54 asciilifeform: to rephrase, this would tell something useful if we had with what to directly compare it with -- what operation in ye olde bdb would this measure correspond to ?	[16:26]
mod6:	Framedragger: hey man, thanks! keep up the good work.	[16:28]
Framedragger:	mod6: thanks - was supposed to be busy with other stuff but this cute insane asylum is concerningly quite attracting :)	[16:30]
asciilifeform:	woah, fresh megatonne of mircea_popescu	[16:31]
* asciilifeform	loads it into bed machine	[16:31]
mod6:	ah nice mircea_popescu!	[16:32]
Framedragger:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624229 << for posterity, re. those last stats, relevant time-measurement c snippet for reference: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/NxLwl/?raw=true	[16:33]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 16:54 asciilifeform: to rephrase, this would tell something useful if we had with what to directly compare it with -- what operation in ye olde bdb would this measure correspond to ?	[16:33]
asciilifeform:	neato Framedragger	[16:34]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform i did foreshadow.	[16:37]
asciilifeform:	aha, i recall	[16:37]
asciilifeform:	'expect massive b00k later this week'	[16:37]
mircea_popescu:	the people who actually have to work for their accomplishments a la beerbohm would no doubt be quite upset.	[16:38]
mircea_popescu:	how goes mod6	[16:39]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624235 << i thought this was entirely obvious, but yes.	[16:43]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 16:55 asciilifeform: ... so that a 256-bit turd, e.g., 3ec455a2a84e978687a3990cec73f36b324fbd28e03603c6d9fc52018b001558, can be taken and matched to a block # where said tx lives.	[16:43]
asciilifeform:	all algos begin with restatement of the obvious (e.g. 'this adds two integers')	[16:44]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624242 << this doesn't sound right. need more directory structure than just that wtf.	[16:45]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 16:58 Framedragger: (yeah btw, just ftr, symlink creation under populated dir structure (`ln -s files_f1/block35461.txt dc/dc89c1f2b58909d3814b250a731a9b9b791b092759553e3ba6579ffaad3a7565`) is slow. however, the creation was done using shellscript, need to move to c to be able to actually profile with precision.)	[16:45]
mircea_popescu:	dc89/c1f2/b589/09d3/814b/250a/731a/9b9b/791b/0927/5955/3e3b/a657/9ffa/ad3a/7565.symlink	[16:45]
Framedragger:	so here's the thing, if folder depth is increased, the actual numbers of symlinks per directory will be basically ~0, as per those graphs from earlier.	[16:46]
mircea_popescu:	aha.	[16:46]
asciilifeform:	btw creation of just about anything is 'pessimized for' by konsoomer fs -- because it is the rarest case on 'typical system'	[16:46]
Framedragger:	but on the other hand this'd benchmark/test directory traversal more.	[16:46]
mircea_popescu:	aha!	[16:46]
mircea_popescu:	Framedragger i didn't intend any distinctiuon betrween "symlink resolution" "directory traversal" et al.	[16:46]
Framedragger:	kk as long as we're clear - i've seen those "but what would happen with 1000s of symlinks in single folder!1" comments so thought that should be tested, etoo.	[16:47]
Framedragger:	ah right right.	[16:47]
mircea_popescu:	btw, the usg is out in force advertising its ersatz bitcoin. "etoro" taking out google advertising on my own name (no doubt along million other strings) and so on.	[16:47]
Framedragger:	well, in principle deeper traversal should really not be a problem at all. in practice - guess we shall see	[16:47]
mircea_popescu:	quite.	[16:47]
mircea_popescu:	no doubt in my mind the selva selvaggia be deep and readily surprising.	[16:48]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: etoro?	[16:48]
mircea_popescu:	some usg-approved "investment" scam.	[16:48]
asciilifeform:	denominated in, i can only guess, ethertardium?	[16:48]
asciilifeform:	or 0 relation..?	[16:49]
mircea_popescu:	"social trading brokerage". doing its best to eat the third world naivite.	[16:49]
mircea_popescu:	no, the bitcoin "etf" vehicle. give us dollars so we buy bitcoin "For you" thing.	[16:49]
asciilifeform:	iirc human names are not trademarkeable in usgdom, they can take out ads on you, me, mod6 , et al. whateverses.	[16:49]
asciilifeform:	they can always say 'ooh we meant ~this other~ mp'	[16:50]
mircea_popescu:	ah, i dont particularly care. anyone googling me who ends up on etoro deserves his punishment.	[16:50]
mircea_popescu:	just pointing out, they've been spending by the million/day in hitler notes for the past week with this nonsense.	[16:50]
asciilifeform:	lulzy	[16:50]
mircea_popescu:	quite	[16:50]
mircea_popescu:	not unlike tv advertising to my chained girl, "a better life". really ? i think if she wanted that "better" she'd have found her way by now.	[16:51]
asciilifeform:	i guess some bean counter decided that this gambit has higher ev ~in btc~ than , e.g., nsa mining	[16:51]
mircea_popescu:	that is certain. the nsa is fast losing the tech battle.	[16:51]
asciilifeform:	'let's run our own pirate'	[16:51]
mircea_popescu:	+/-	[16:51]
asciilifeform:	kinda disgraceful, not like there isn't a usg 15nm fab or two still standing in upstate new york	[16:52]
asciilifeform:	could make miners, instead of whatever arse-penetrating radar controller golden toilet rubbish. for just one or two shifts.	[16:52]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624243 << does the lady know your only true love is strange addressing schemes ?	[16:52]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 16:59 asciilifeform: now you store the table as follows: the top 32 bits (e.g., 3ec455a2 from above) are an array index into this table	[16:52]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: it's literally the simplest physically possible scheme, read whole thread. (it is also NOT married to the 'magic numbers.')	[16:53]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform usg really can't make anything. you're basically saying "siliconed botoxed cali chick could cook a decent meal." of course she could. of course she won't.	[16:53]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform i have to protest re the scheme. i'm merely needling you in my spare time.	[16:53]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: i am not a psychiatrist, do not specialize in 'patient has arms, legs, nerves are fine, but he won't move'em'	[16:54]
mircea_popescu:	myeah.	[16:54]
mircea_popescu:	yet move - he won't.	[16:54]
asciilifeform:	this, if it was a mystery in 2014, is plainly visible today imho	[16:54]
mircea_popescu:	i said years back the race is won. but meanwhile the usg utterly lost it, ot little concern of anyone, itself included.,	[16:54]
mircea_popescu:	the race is on*	[16:54]
asciilifeform:	( speaking of golden toilet, factory sent me a gold-plated ruler! complete with drill guide. -- yes, made of finest pcb . for lulz. )	[16:56]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624254 << there are habits that die easy and habits that die hard.	[16:56]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 17:02 trinque: oh jesus docker Framedragger	[16:56]
mircea_popescu:	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y << spare time.	[16:57]
asciilifeform:	lul	[17:00]
mircea_popescu:	possibly their best.	[17:00]
asciilifeform:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624149 << this is a hosting co in hk, and domain peddler. betcha ~all~ of their shithosting offerings, are debianized.	[17:06]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 13:58 deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/83747C8EA3613D6D3DEEEDE006197672FCB135ABA18188DB332E25098C44C765 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1650...4657 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '202.130.103.22 (ssh-rsa key from 202.130.103.22 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt> ' (wtt22.smartinfo.com.hk. HK)	[17:06]
mircea_popescu:	prolly.	[17:08]
mircea_popescu:	and in other news, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtnTaUcMLjA	[17:11]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624278 << this blowing seems altogether a foregone conclusion.	[17:16]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 17:10 asciilifeform: if you're willing to blow another 16GB, you can have an l2 table	[17:16]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624290 << contiguity is the big problem. perhaps it can be resolved through "alternative starvation', as in, running naught else. but that is liable to run into the genius of "dwim" "modern" linuxhit	[17:17]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 17:14 Framedragger: i'm not sure if you do need driver	[17:17]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624297 << this sounds like a quite elegant solution, yes.	[17:18]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 17:16 asciilifeform: the Right Thing would probably be to have a very simple kernel driver that takes a specially-marked disk partition and gives userland trb linear use of it, as plain array	[17:18]
Framedragger:	mircea_popescu: but if you read further down, we were saying that it may be possible to just access a raw block device without kernel module :)	[17:18]
mircea_popescu:	meh.	[17:19]
Framedragger:	not that it's necessarily the way to go. but consider what asciilifeform was saying - one could just pass an already-opened file handle. handle to whatever. no ring0 driver, no root permissions.	[17:19]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624307 << it is the case, one collision a year sort of deal./	[17:19]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 17:19 asciilifeform: it is statistically possible that we don't even have ONE collision yet	[17:19]
Framedragger:	(or, use linux cap to allow raw access, but that's maybe meh)	[17:19]
mircea_popescu:	Framedragger it sounds great on paper and then crashes irrecoverably six weeks in.	[17:20]
Framedragger:	if you have shitty code, you have shitty code. shitty code in kernel wreaks more havoc.	[17:21]
mircea_popescu:	the noion that hdd is usable or useful is a cute pipe-dream of the web generation, unsupported in cold reality.	[17:21]
Framedragger:	but yeh, maybe more exposure to userspace shite if not driver - maybe	[17:21]
* Framedragger	hears wind swoosh as goalposts shifted at c velocity	[17:21]
mircea_popescu:	it's more the case that those 10k lines of ??? actually contain the mystery bullshit that makes the whole pile of crap evern work.	[17:21]
Framedragger:	mircea_popescu: (i thought with "sounds great on paper" you were responding to possible kernel module workarounds. but if you're against the whole idea, fair enough.)	[17:22]
mircea_popescu:	i don't think anyone correctly represents the tower of accidental good luck that stands between a disk seek and your desired pron.	[17:22]
Framedragger:	for schizzle.	[17:22]
mircea_popescu:	im not against the idea in the slightest. i'm just very unpersuaded by the theory hard drives work, to any spec, in any sanemanner.	[17:23]
mircea_popescu:	dispensing with the kernel's accumulated gunk comes at no cost to the wizard, but at disability to anyone else.	[17:23]
Framedragger:	kernel driver would work around userland fs specific stuff. but certainly not against disk seek, disk cache, etc. just to clarify	[17:25]
Framedragger:	(and yah i'm sure there's lots of crud in the former worth dropping..)	[17:25]
mircea_popescu:	afaik it bundles a lot fo that in	[17:25]
mircea_popescu:	,m	[17:25]
* mircea_popescu	has seen architerctures where there were de facto 3 different disk caches	[17:25]
Framedragger:	ah, you're probably right. lots of fs-specific cache madness, too	[17:26]
Framedragger:	the wonder!	[17:27]
mircea_popescu:	yea	[17:28]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624352 << this is a major part of the savings in fsdb	[17:32]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 17:36 asciilifeform: that is, you don't need 8 bytes to say which 4kB slice has the beginning	[17:32]
mircea_popescu:	because yes, alf is entirely correct, the hdds piss out 4kb or more per call	[17:33]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624365 << quite so.	[17:34]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 17:43 asciilifeform: imho the 'hard part' is not even to implement this table, it is freshman homework, but to unravel the liquishit in trb and learn where to even put the lookup/write !	[17:34]
mod6:	<+mircea_popescu> how goes mod6 << eh, it goes. getting ready to release V 99994 here soon. mom was diagnosed with stage 4 small cell cancer about 6 weeks ago -- so that's been pretty intense.	[17:36]
mircea_popescu:	o.o	[17:36]
mod6:	ikr. :/	[17:36]
mircea_popescu:	that's not good.	[17:36]
mircea_popescu:	1 in 10 shot or what.	[17:36]
mod6:	3-6mo.	[17:37]
mircea_popescu:	some do survive it. but myeah.	[17:37]
mod6:	with chemo... could be 8-12. we don't think we'll do chemo tho. don't see much of a point.	[17:37]
mircea_popescu:	did she smoke ?	[17:38]
mod6:	like a chimney. still does.	[17:38]
mircea_popescu:	yeah. well...	[17:38]
mod6:	'tis what happens.	[17:38]
mircea_popescu:	sorry to hear.	[17:41]
mod6:	Thanks Sir. Me too.	[17:41]
mod6:	On a brighter note, about to setup a new trb node this weekend outside of aws. So that's awesome.	[17:42]
mircea_popescu:	yeah srs.	[17:43]
mod6:	<+mircea_popescu> http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624297 << this sounds like a quite elegant solution, yes. << yeah, nice idea here. all of this is very exciting.	[17:44]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 17:16 asciilifeform: the Right Thing would probably be to have a very simple kernel driver that takes a specially-marked disk partition and gives userland trb linear use of it, as plain array	[17:44]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624370 << god help us.	[17:44]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 17:46 asciilifeform: or, for instance, what is ReadDiskTx .	[17:44]
diana_coman:	mod6, so sorry about that	[17:44]
Framedragger:	mod6: damn man, very sorry to hear that.	[17:44]
Framedragger:	bitcoin-out-of-the-cloud ftw.	[17:44]
mod6:	diana_coman, Framedragger: thanks	[17:44]
mod6:	<3	[17:44]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624374 < heh. though this be a taller order than meets the eye.	[17:46]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 18:01 trinque: god forbid the disk always be in a coherent state, eh?	[17:46]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624375 << confirmed, this is safe. just don't issue the -0 before it hd a chance to settle down.	[17:47]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 18:01 asciilifeform: trinque: i've found that 'kill', which syncs the db, followed by kill -9, which nukes shitoshi's pointless wait idiocy, worx 100%.	[17:47]
mircea_popescu:	-9*	[17:47]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624381 << very much so. reminiscent of ye olde http://btcbase.org/log/2016-01-21#1379603	[17:48]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 18:02 asciilifeform: (some time grep for the sleeps, it is instructive)	[17:48]
a111:	Logged on 2016-01-21 13:29 asciilifeform: 'if i make it what i think is the right size, it crashes!111'	[17:48]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624395 << your emulator stil lsucks what can i tell you. ai winter!	[17:51]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 18:12 asciilifeform: ( i can already picture mircea_popescu spitting out his breakfast, 'modern hdd dun have cylinder, you nut' -- except, it in effect DOES, fetches massive blox , whether mechanical or ssd, by design, for ages now )	[17:51]
mod6:	heheh	[17:52]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624406 << they try but yeah hehe.	[17:52]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 18:17 asciilifeform: do the arithmetic, it isn't as if anyone can cancel the 'block per 10min' thing.	[17:52]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624413 << this truly isn't a concern.	[17:56]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 18:20 asciilifeform: at any rate, working around this idiocy would be very cheap -- say we index by top32 of keccak(txid) instead of plain txid. in the event of.	[17:56]
mod6:	perhaps not. i like that we're thinking about things like this though.	[17:56]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624417 << this is not accountable in dollars.	[17:56]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 18:24 Framedragger: while at it, and i'm guessing it's in the logs.., i wonder when was the last time some tried to come up with an approximation what the costs to get to >50% network hashing power would be	[17:56]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624420 <<->> http://trilema.com/2013/things-that-matter-these-days-things-that-dont-matter-these-days/#footnote_3_50058 2013.	[18:01]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 18:24 asciilifeform: Framedragger: there was old thread with mircea_popescu , where he stated that usg and china attempted it at same time, and perma-deadlocked	[18:01]
Framedragger:	> 1 government, fair point	[18:03]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624436 no guarantees, but likely, yeah/	[18:03]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 18:33 asciilifeform: (~guaranteed at 80 or so)	[18:03]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624446 << there may be a lot of merit in this. even l1-l4 implemented via kernel table may be faster than freestanding l1 with "occasonal" (to be defined) cache miss aka collision.	[18:06]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 18:40 asciilifeform: you can use x64's page table to 'cheat' and store a sparse form !	[18:06]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624468 << very much this.	[18:09]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 18:57 asciilifeform: i'd like to think of an elegant solution to this	[18:09]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624481 << you can most assuredly cheat by you know, virgin hdd. but kludge of kludges and metatronium nonsense besides.	[18:10]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 19:11 asciilifeform: ( i wonder if there are any traditional fs that will actually give you 16G of contiguous blocks, if asked nicely )	[18:10]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624496 << experimentally this is almost never above 50%	[18:11]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 19:19 asciilifeform: for completeness, i will note that you can model any 'whole disk' variant with an enormous flat file, in userland, at some speed penalty.	[18:11]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624508 << you also need a guarantee against being "slow" (term of art)	[18:13]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 19:33 asciilifeform: Framedragger: all you need is to check a read candidate against the current list of active writes.	[18:13]
asciilifeform:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624681 << fwiw i've used raw hdd for actual work.	[18:15]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 22:21 mircea_popescu: the noion that hdd is usable or useful is a cute pipe-dream of the web generation, unsupported in cold reality.	[18:15]
asciilifeform:	if you just need to store linear array of blox -- nothing beats raw hdd. fuck fs.	[18:15]
mircea_popescu:	myeah	[18:17]
asciilifeform:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624688 << if you're thinking of the iron failing -- i operate disks in raid5 (and for past couplea years -- raid5 of ssd on this particular box in this particular room, for instance, 4 x 1tb ssd) : 0 detectable failures-with-loss of any kind.	[18:18]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 22:23 mircea_popescu: im not against the idea in the slightest. i'm just very unpersuaded by the theory hard drives work, to any spec, in any sanemanner.	[18:18]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624512 << rebalancing the tree is actually a terrible idea for bitcoin block storage.	[18:19]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 19:33 asciilifeform: Framedragger: but not right tool for ~this~ job	[18:19]
mircea_popescu:	because any arbitrart hash has equal chances to be seen as next hash as any other.	[18:19]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: aha! which is why i published an algo with 0 rebalance, today.	[18:19]
mircea_popescu:	this is exactly contrarty to the engineering assumption in "balancing"	[18:19]
asciilifeform:	(i sat down with the ext4 thing and very quickly came to the conclusion that it, and every other konsoomer fs, is 'pessimized' for our specific scenario)	[18:20]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform no, no, nothing of the kind. i was contemplating no hardware whatsoever, just the tower of crud that builds up to consumer fs	[18:20]
Framedragger:	ftr i didn't every say it was the right thing for bitcoin with uniformly distributed hashspace	[18:20]
mircea_popescu:	the rebalancing above a fine examplke of the fundamental problems.	[18:20]
mircea_popescu:	"your kink is not my kink"	[18:20]
mircea_popescu:	Framedragger yeah that's exactly it, the distributions	[18:20]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624517 << don't knock it too much, bunny-hop fuck-chair is fine tool for she who for the first time took her clothes off in public today.	[18:21]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 19:34 asciilifeform: Framedragger: i am increasingly finding that 'general purpose db' is, like the infamous 'vise-grip', The Wrong Tool For Every Job	[18:21]
mircea_popescu:	that nobody else uses it... well.	[18:22]
mircea_popescu:	there's still a lot of noobs.	[18:22]
Framedragger:	(also just for poterity it's not like you can't tell a decent db which indexing mechanism it should use. but i agree with main 'general tools are ~meh' sentiment)	[18:23]
mircea_popescu:	there is no practical way to tell postgresql to do slave reads nor any way to tell ~any db to do unbalancing btree stores.	[18:24]
asciilifeform:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624751 << ben_vulpes actually went off to calculate it, empirically!, earlier today, lessee what he comes back with	[18:24]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 23:06 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624446 << there may be a lot of merit in this. even l1-l4 implemented via kernel table may be faster than freestanding l1 with "occasonal" (to be defined) cache miss aka collision.	[18:24]
mircea_popescu:	this theory of yours crashes on the jagged shores of a meaner reality.	[18:24]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform in any case this is turning into QUITE the course on caching!	[18:24]
asciilifeform:	( he asked 'what do' and i answered 'take all tx, from first to top of currentheight, and count how many share their senior 32bit )	[18:25]
mircea_popescu:	compare and contrast with the mit offering.	[18:25]
asciilifeform:	soon we find out 'how many shared birthdays'	[18:26]
asciilifeform:	btw it may even be worth taking top 32 and bottom 32 and comparing (fuck knows, sha(sha(x)) could produce different ! distribution, for no entirely good reason, for each )	[18:27]
Framedragger:	also just ftr, a b-tree by definition has every part of it be of the same depth. 'unbalancing b-tree' doesn't even make sense. but you could have 'just a normal tree', and one can implement custom indices. just pointing out	[18:27]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624528 << and this not worth doing, either, because just do p when it comes out and be done with it	[18:27]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 19:38 asciilifeform: trinque: then i'll need a cl pgp parser	[18:27]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: aha, i started at one point to do it, and realized 'wtf why'	[18:27]
mircea_popescu:	Framedragger i just meant "don't fucking rebalance my tree, behind the scenes, idiot!"	[18:28]
mircea_popescu:	(they do this, and they think they're smart for it, too.)	[18:28]
Framedragger:	right right :)	[18:28]
Framedragger:	ACID is not a bad idea yknow. i wonder if you could accomplish what you wanted with dirty slave reads via streaming replication or sth. but, eh. bbl, food	[18:29]
mircea_popescu:	psssh.	[18:29]
Framedragger:	(ya i know you pissed on it)	[18:30]
mircea_popescu:	acid is not a bad idea in the sense "valentine's day" is not a bad idea.	[18:30]
Framedragger:	more sex. more sex on acid. checks out.	[18:30]
mircea_popescu:	if you have no relationship with your whore, it will provide some anchor for pointless, idle pretense while you "focus on your career"	[18:31]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624534 << word, exactly.	[18:32]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 19:39 trinque: we'll make a CL lib for p	[18:32]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624551 << these are actually pretty encouraging as such	[18:34]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 20:31 Framedragger: some (very initial) symlink stats - more stuff will have to wait - given a "here are 1mn 'transactions' which symlink to files, resolve links and read from linked files in random order for 100mn times" setup, with one-folder-deep structure, like so: "simple_f1/e5/e5edc34c57d5ea2ea99cfe16d04655aa000c3d7f268022d2b21f95928fa34674 -> /files_f1/99997.txt", most basic stats are:	[18:34]
mircea_popescu:	fopen() times given 100000000 iterations: min = 1761 ns, max = 1506074 ns, avg = 2326.51 ns, << holy shit what.	[18:34]
mircea_popescu:	incidentally what is your ns counter method ?	[18:34]
mircea_popescu:	and what the fuck caused that outlier.	[18:34]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: he posted the method, in the end of the thread, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624601	[18:35]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 21:33 Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624229 << for posterity, re. those last stats, relevant time-measurement c snippet for reference: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/NxLwl/?raw=true	[18:35]
mircea_popescu:	ah shall get to it	[18:35]
asciilifeform:	and these outliers are always caused by a) interrupt b) cache miss	[18:35]
BingoBoingo:	Sorry to hear mod6, keep coming back	[18:35]
asciilifeform:	aha, hats off to mod6	[18:36]
mircea_popescu:	lol jurov cute	[18:36]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform always worth hounding down in my experience.	[18:36]
mircea_popescu:	time_elapsed_nanos = timer_end(time_init) << trhis is ns precision now ?	[18:37]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: his fopen() is smaller than a princely ssd's seek time. so thereby i could tell, his measurements had cache in play	[18:37]
mircea_popescu:	i do not trust his clock seems to be accurate within a few ms at best.	[18:38]
Framedragger:	struct timespec timer_start() {	[18:38]
Framedragger:	struct timespec start_time	[18:38]
Framedragger:	clock_gettime(CLOCK_MONOTONIC, &start_time)	[18:38]
Framedragger:	return start_time	[18:38]
Framedragger:	}	[18:38]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: i hate to break this sad noose, but nothing on a konsoomer pc is accurate to ns	[18:38]
asciilifeform:	ever.	[18:38]
mircea_popescu:	right.	[18:38]
asciilifeform:	us -- IF you're lucky	[18:38]
mircea_popescu:	right.	[18:38]
mircea_popescu:	Framedragger you didn't measure anything mah boy!	[18:38]
Framedragger:	allegedly this is what folks use for high precision profiling. i checked and wrote trivial version of that. but yah, clock_gettime()	[18:38]
* asciilifeform	has thought about installing a rubidium clock	[18:38]
mircea_popescu:	Framedragger consider using the recently discussed clocking method	[18:39]
Framedragger:	now they gonna talk about how one cant measure anything and need phuctor-made superclocks. kk. sure. but this is as accurate as it gets, sir	[18:39]
* Framedragger	will read later, food	[18:39]
Framedragger:	what do you suggest, time()	[18:39]
asciilifeform:	Framedragger: try rdtsc	[18:39]
Framedragger:	ah that i've heard of. not without its problems iirc	[18:39]
Framedragger:	!# rdtsc	[18:40]
asciilifeform:	best you get on x86.	[18:40]
mircea_popescu:	no no, where the fuck is it	[18:40]
Framedragger:	!#srdtsc	[18:40]
Framedragger:	!#s rdtsc	[18:40]
a111:	3 results for "rdtsc", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=rdtsc	[18:40]
mircea_popescu:	the people doing key extraction	[18:40]
asciilifeform:	literally, it dun get no better on x86, than it	[18:40]
asciilifeform:	it's just a register that increments with every tick of the main clock.	[18:40]
Framedragger:	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-14#1541639	[18:40]
a111:	Logged on 2016-09-14 12:01 Framedragger: "rdtsc is not guaranteed to be available on every CPU, or to run at a constant rate, or be consistent between different cores." (emphasis mine). `get_cycles()` is recommended, but from cursory look it seems that on some architectures it uses rdtsc internally? madness.	[18:40]
asciilifeform:	if your cpu dun have rdtsc, throw it out.	[18:40]
asciilifeform:	srsly.	[18:40]
Framedragger:	and alf responded to me then, actually - http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-14#1541702	[18:40]
a111:	Logged on 2016-09-14 13:28 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-14#1541639 << not only is this true, but you won't be seeing scientifically accurate nanosecond timing in a konsooomer box at all. the physical clock is not up to it.	[18:40]
Framedragger:	but yah fair enough may as well try	[18:41]
asciilifeform:	if it dun run at a constant rate: a) adjust your bios b) if fails, Throw it out!!	[18:41]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-06#1622520 <<<	[18:41]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-06 17:22 mircea_popescu: the guys did actually splendid work, read the paper, worth it.	[18:41]
Framedragger:	that said, CLOCK_MONOTONIC ain't bad.	[18:41]
mircea_popescu:	use an incrementor.	[18:41]
mircea_popescu:	better clock than ~anything the kernel exposes, is the sad truth\	[18:41]
Framedragger:	incrementor where, in another thread so that one may have more context switches for fun? those calls are blocking..	[18:42]
mircea_popescu:	hm	[18:42]
mircea_popescu:	they are blocking aren't they	[18:42]
Framedragger:	i actually did check what was available before deciding on clock measurement yknow. but yah, need to try rdtsc	[18:42]
asciilifeform:	rdtsc is the ticket, it is how profilers time, and the only timer that is really worth twopence on x86.	[18:43]
mod6:	<+BingoBoingo> Sorry to hear mod6, keep coming back <+asciilifeform> aha, hats off to mod6 << thank you, Gentlemen.	[18:43]
Framedragger:	yeah	[18:43]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform actually are dma calls cpu blocking ?!	[18:43]
asciilifeform:	it resets on coldboot and increments with every tick thereafter	[18:43]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: no, whole point is to copy from bucket a to b w/out using cpu	[18:43]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: (whole point of dma controller)	[18:43]
mircea_popescu:	right.	[18:43]
asciilifeform:	where in this mix do we get dma tho.	[18:43]
mircea_popescu:	still, on contemplation, hard to argue against rdtsc	[18:43]
Framedragger:	..but if one wants to measure fs performance, he's stuck with syscalls.	[18:44]
Framedragger:	suresure.	[18:44]
mircea_popescu:	yeah. ok, ok. rdtsc.	[18:44]
mircea_popescu:	he's right too, that's how profilers time also.	[18:44]
asciilifeform:	btw if you have a 'modern' comp, you will also have bizarre variation in wall clock timings because of smm idiocy	[18:44]
Framedragger:	asciilifeform: i thought that's why folks use CLOCK_MONOTONIC? i guess the irony is that it's not..monotonic in the end, still. :(	[18:45]
asciilifeform:	(cpu will stop to do ??????, maybe pack key logger buffer for later monthly upload to obummer, and undetectably, but rdtsc counter still ticks, it is lowtech)	[18:45]
Framedragger:	(vs. those other options there)	[18:45]
asciilifeform:	this is why it is a lost cause to try to do high precision profiling on a laptop	[18:45]
asciilifeform:	( it is handling smm routine many times per second )	[18:45]
* Framedragger	running on barebones xeon (not docker) nao, fwiw	[18:46]
asciilifeform:	more or less everything post-2011 comes with nonempty smm.	[18:46]
asciilifeform:	(if you want to find out what's in yours, you can disasm your bios, can be quite enlightening)	[18:46]
phf:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624795 << fwiw i have one written. it can do an equivalent of pgpdump, but knows only a subset of packet types. if there's any interest i can drive it towards a specific goal	[18:47]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-10 23:27 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aha, i started at one point to do it, and realized 'wtf why'	[18:47]
asciilifeform:	phf: consider publishing, it could come in quite handy at some point.	[18:47]
asciilifeform:	(say, when we look for sha1 collisions in pgpland)	[18:47]
mircea_popescu:	^	[18:48]
Framedragger:	asciilifeform: something about needing to discard 'invalid values' with rdtsc (even when set up correctly - apparently best to 'pin' particular cpu, etc etc..) oh god.	[18:48]
mircea_popescu:	it's iffy but not unusuable	[18:48]
asciilifeform:	Framedragger: link to who proclaimed 'invalid values' wtf	[18:48]
mircea_popescu:	steal profiler timer code lel	[18:48]
asciilifeform:	thing is foolproof	[18:48]
Framedragger:	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/19941588/wrong-clock-cycle-measurements-with-rdtsc don't kill me plz	[18:49]
Framedragger:	first answer	[18:49]
asciilifeform:	'When Intel first invented the TSC it measured CPU cycles. Due to various power management features "cycles per second" is not constant so TSC was originally good for measuring the performance of code (and bad for measuring time passed). For better or worse back then CPUs didn't really have too much power management, often CPUs ran at a fixed "cycles per second" anyway. ...'	[18:49]
asciilifeform:	as i said just few min ago,	[18:49]
asciilifeform:	if this happens on your box,	[18:49]
asciilifeform:	and cannot be turned off,	[18:49]
asciilifeform:	!! THROW IT OUT !!	[18:49]
mircea_popescu:	heh	[18:49]
asciilifeform:	my clock runs at constant rate.	[18:49]
asciilifeform:	24/7.	[18:49]
asciilifeform:	within crystal's temp variation.	[18:50]
asciilifeform:	(i measured. and you, also, oughta measure, this is the kind of thing to be aware of in a well-run household)	[18:50]
asciilifeform:	and it bugs me that the mobo dun have a jack for a rubidium clock	[18:50]
asciilifeform:	( my fpga boards, the nicer ones, DO in fact !! )	[18:50]
asciilifeform:	and incidentally FUCKGOATS also has !!	[18:50]
asciilifeform:	you can plug in own clock !	[18:50]
asciilifeform:	'power management' is for the birds.	[18:51]
mircea_popescu:	save the planets alf!	[18:51]
asciilifeform:	the box i'm sitting in front of, draws 300w. this is not much.	[18:51]
mircea_popescu:	THINK OF AFREEKA	[18:51]
phf:	beats an xl1201 by a margin	[18:52]
asciilifeform:	phf: aha. doesn't sound like a jet turbine either	[18:52]
asciilifeform:	(my 3620 certainly does )	[18:52]
* mircea_popescu	just looked, he is drawing 3.5 kw with his boxen. this is before ac etc.	[18:52]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: i meant 1 particular box	[18:52]
mircea_popescu:	yawell	[18:52]
Framedragger:	i must write a short comedy screenplay for how discussions develop in #trilema. "i want to take a picture" ... ... ... [intense calculations of incident gamma rays to reclaim lost pixels in images] [furious rehash of late renaissance representationalism]	[18:52]
asciilifeform:	phf: you dun run your 1201 24/7 do you.	[18:53]
asciilifeform:	(have pity on ye olde caps!)	[18:53]
phf:	no no, i'm missing console at the moment	[18:54]
asciilifeform:	broke?	[18:54]
mircea_popescu:	lol Framedragger . you prolly should.	[18:54]
mircea_popescu:	anyone ever read http://trilema.com/2012/sorana-comedie-bufa-intr-un-act/ ?	[18:55]
phf:	no, just haven't shipped it. i've been waiting for some friends to do west coast/east coast drive, but those always seem to NOT happen when you actually need them. i can boot it to do remote x11 though, was configured with the assumption that it will boot blind	[18:55]
mircea_popescu:	it has the distinction of being fashioned ~entirely out of police blotted / da filings verbatim.	[18:56]
mircea_popescu:	blotter*	[18:56]
asciilifeform:	phf: yeah i'm not sure why a xl1201 owner would even need the console	[18:56]
asciilifeform:	(i reverse-engineered the kbd, pretty sure was the first to publicly do so and post on www, you can build converter)	[18:56]
phf:	amusingly enough genera's clx is missing some x code for rendering bitmaps. meanwhile clx got ported out, worked on by a dozen of different teams, gender pronounced and ~still~ that code is missing, with the same disclaimer	[19:00]
asciilifeform:	know what doesn't help ? people's habit of NOT POSTING JACK SHIT	[19:01]
asciilifeform:	srsly, genera src was up since 2009, and I NEVER FOUND IT	[19:01]
asciilifeform:	despite looking ~monthly, ~weekly sometimes !!	[19:01]
asciilifeform:	because motherfucking 'people in the know' whispering like little girls	[19:02]
asciilifeform:	instead of POSTING	[19:02]
phf:	https://github.com/sharplispers/clx/blob/master/image.lisp#L1989	[19:03]
asciilifeform:	can i download phf's mac-patched, actually-builds genera somewhere ? or do i have to knock on a naugahyde-covered door in the bar from lsl and whisper 'ken sent me' and knock 3 times..?	[19:03]
Framedragger:	same parameters, averages a bit worse after fs cache and buffers are forced flushed: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/4IOGa/?raw=true	[19:04]
asciilifeform:	Framedragger: that's still below seek time of the best ssd, you're reading from cache.	[19:05]
Framedragger:	(oh actually variance higher, too)	[19:05]
Framedragger:	hm really?	[19:06]
asciilifeform:	the worst-case is probably closer to 'reality on the ground' than the avg.	[19:06]
Framedragger:	maybe another caching layer is still caching, hrgh.	[19:06]
asciilifeform:	Framedragger: your hdd iron itself is also caching	[19:07]
Framedragger:	right, yeah, but the (really) random seeks.. i hoped to tumble it a bit at least	[19:08]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1624943 << can't argue with his point there.	[19:08]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-11 00:02 asciilifeform: because motherfucking 'people in the know' whispering like little girls	[19:08]
Framedragger:	ah i noted this myself and forgot, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-06#1622466	[19:09]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-06 13:10 Framedragger: (just for posterity, other metrics say that consumer ssds seek average may be ~3ms.)	[19:09]
mircea_popescu:	Framedragger well you pared it down to ~2 caches, not so bad.	[19:10]
asciilifeform:	phf: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/Symbolics3600Keyboard.png and -- laboriously extracted empirically !! -- http://www.loper-os.org/pub/bolix_keys.txt	[19:10]
asciilifeform:	is all you will ever need to drive the kbd (which kbd? EITHER of the 2 that they made, i have'em both here, and though their design differs electrically, they both obey this protocol )	[19:11]
Framedragger:	...yeah, i think that the proper way to do it then is to take entire disk, populate it with things to a high degree and (somehow) with enough spatial dispersion, and benchmark, and restart entire thing between benchmarks.	[19:11]
Framedragger:	~maybe up for it but that'd have to wait till later	[19:12]
asciilifeform:	phf, incidentally, do you know that i blew MONTHS, if you add it up, possibly most of a year of life, sawing open 'snap4' genera in ida ?	[19:14]
asciilifeform:	without knowing that the motherfucking source IS PUBLIC ?	[19:15]
Framedragger:	oh god.	[19:15]
mircea_popescu:	lol	[19:15]
asciilifeform:	motherFUCKing whisperers.	[19:15]
mircea_popescu:	dude that is the saddest story...	[19:15]
asciilifeform:	if some unknown d00d had not written to me last night, even now i might be doing it	[19:16]
asciilifeform:	(i came back to it regularly, whenever didn't feel like working on anything else)	[19:16]
asciilifeform:	since 2009 or so!!	[19:16]
mircea_popescu:	my heart goes out.	[19:16]
asciilifeform:	no, laugh.	[19:16]
asciilifeform:	google, for instance, managed not to find it ON SHITHUB	[19:16]
asciilifeform:	where it lay.	[19:16]
asciilifeform:	where it lies still!!	[19:17]
mircea_popescu:	here, have a girl in full regalia http://68.media.tumblr.com/038c5f274a5691b022e20d0c194b085f/tumblr_o2mzt8sLry1urlmkko1_1280.jpg	[19:17]
asciilifeform:	it was not on some obscure 13333337w4r3z in ru or wat.	[19:17]
asciilifeform:	SHITHUB	[19:17]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform google is worthless.	[19:17]
asciilifeform:	yeah but this is a new low.	[19:17]
mircea_popescu:	tru	[19:17]
phf:	your approach to sourcing this info is by googling, while actually getting in touch with people who might know is derided as "whispering". while the content's been published and public since forever, those who follow along presumbly knew since then	[19:18]
asciilifeform:	i even mentioned it before... http://btcbase.org/log/2016-05-12#1466172	[19:18]
a111:	Logged on 2016-05-12 14:42 asciilifeform: (either that or the 'snap4' emulator source code)	[19:18]
asciilifeform:	and did phf bother to mention the public existence of src ?	[19:18]
asciilifeform:	nope.	[19:18]
asciilifeform:	i assume he 'assumed that asciilifeform knew' ...	[19:18]
asciilifeform:	phf: i publicly struggled with reversing every piece of smbx gear i could get my hands on. chronicled on my www.	[19:19]
mircea_popescu:	phf he has a strong case though. no blogs, no mirrors, jack shit. "oh we knew. github." cmon.	[19:19]
mircea_popescu:	it's not a defensible sharing of the power in any conceivable desing.	[19:19]
asciilifeform:	there is a long, rotten tradition here, mircea_popescu , ofthis	[19:20]
asciilifeform:	for instance, i struggled to find the genera source, and then YEARS later i found out that 'the whisperers' have been quietly passing it around	[19:21]
asciilifeform:	and nobody thought to maybe tell asciilifeform , or even post on normal warez LIKE A MAN omfg	[19:21]
asciilifeform:	first thing i did when i got hold of it is to put on warez, worldwide, same day	[19:21]
asciilifeform:	srsly, folx, you passed around leaked winblows source, and nsa, etc, like it were candy, but not this ?	[19:22]
asciilifeform:	why not ?	[19:22]
asciilifeform:	yer more afraid of old ~defunct corp with 60k (look it up, usaspending.gov) than of riaa, mpaa, cia ?	[19:23]
phf:	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-09#1538493	[19:23]
a111:	Logged on 2016-09-09 15:21 asciilifeform: and violates the principle of nothing-to-allcomers.	[19:23]
asciilifeform:	phf: asciilifeform is 'all-comer' ?	[19:24]
asciilifeform:	!!gettrust phf	[19:24]
deedbot:	L1: 3, L2: 16 by 8 connections.	[19:24]
asciilifeform:	mutual l1, neh	[19:24]
phf:	yes, but i can't speak for other "whisperers"	[19:24]
Framedragger:	i don't think he meant himself, but rather other, external wots.	[19:25]
asciilifeform:	Framedragger: some of these people wrote to me re the 3620	[19:25]
asciilifeform:	NOBODY mentioned the shithub	[19:25]
Framedragger:	well, that is pretty fucky and sad.	[19:25]
asciilifeform:	dks even mentioned the warez install cd to me	[19:25]
Framedragger:	lol, what can i tell you, sad state of affairs	[19:26]
asciilifeform:	even gave me an 'illicit' copy of snap5, when i bought a genera license for my usg lab at the time	[19:26]
asciilifeform:	but DID NOT MENTION the shithub.	[19:26]
asciilifeform:	Framedragger: dks , if you didn't know, is the last known paid employee of smbx co.	[19:26]
Framedragger:	gave illicit copy of same thing? uh	[19:26]
asciilifeform:	he sells (sold ? afaik he ran out.. ) all that was left to sell	[19:26]
Framedragger:	aha, mk	[19:26]
asciilifeform:	old lispms, and Official Copies of genera	[19:27]
asciilifeform:	Framedragger: it wasn't 'of same thing', it was just an x64 binary	[19:28]
asciilifeform:	no src	[19:28]
Framedragger:	yeah but that's what i meant by same, gave closed copy the source version of which was available (and known to him, presumably?)	[19:28]
asciilifeform:	Framedragger: tbh i have nfi if he knew	[19:29]
asciilifeform:	he knew that the alpha installer was on torrent, tho.	[19:29]
asciilifeform:	even laughed about it.	[19:29]
asciilifeform:	so probably knew.	[19:29]
asciilifeform:	anyway this is probably all anyone needs of this 'mean girls' film	[19:29]
asciilifeform:	but imho it is instructive.	[19:30]
asciilifeform:	and tells something about why to this day we don't have an fpga bolix.	[19:31]
Framedragger:	yeah. :( wow.	[19:31]
asciilifeform:	(for instance, in that YEAR i could have been making one. was quite inclined to, but didn't have the instruction set !!)	[19:31]
asciilifeform:	nor any way to get it.	[19:31]
asciilifeform:	tried 'humint' even. asked dks, for instance, to name a price (he wouldn't)	[19:32]
asciilifeform:	made friends with d00d who worked in ai lab, he gave me a working alpha (i was a student, and had $0) and FULL set of bolix docs. which i still have.	[19:32]
asciilifeform:	*had worked in	[19:33]
asciilifeform:	guess what, HE WAS NOT in 'whisperer' wot either.. apparently.	[19:33]
asciilifeform:	i seriously have nfi! what, all of you people thought 1) smbx has a commercial future 2) it will punish you for leaking (or reward for silence ?!!!)	[19:34]
asciilifeform:	srsly???	[19:34]
Framedragger:	they must have really low self esteem to require this kind of labyrinthine way of pretending to themselves to be real important nao	[19:34]
asciilifeform:	i have deeply nfi	[19:34]
asciilifeform:	it's one thing to scan schematics, and post, i forgive phf for not having gotten around to this chore (he proclaimed to intend it a year or so ago iirc) because it is a heavy labour	[19:35]
asciilifeform:	but how about POINTING to PUBLIC src omfg.	[19:35]
* asciilifeform	bbl, frothing	[19:35]
phf:	the timing of this rant is amusing, because i'm flying out to dks's tomorrow. which is why last time we talked about it i ~explicitly asked you not to rant about this in public~. if nobody cares about symbolics proper, then people certainly do care about the fickle opinions of older men, who are sitting on irreplaceable treasure troves of smbx technology.	[19:42]
asciilifeform:	phf: this is proving my point.	[19:42]
asciilifeform:	also it boggles my mind, why is phf still buying the old iron, the instruction set's been out since '09... buy fpga board.	[19:43]
asciilifeform:	what's still in that treasure chest, that phf -- or anybody else -- wants?!	[19:43]
phf:	is that a legitimate question, or rhetorics for log?	[19:44]
asciilifeform:	legit	[19:44]
asciilifeform:	i can't speak for others, but my objective since day 0 has been to get that instruction set.	[19:44]
asciilifeform:	so the machine can exist again. forever, like commodore 64 exists. and not on 20 d00d's shelves,while the capacitors work.	[19:45]
asciilifeform:	nobody's gonna 'legit manufacture' it, phf , even if dks and that nsa d00d who owns him, do an 'official' release.	[19:46]
phf:	you're making a lot of assumptions, about goals and strategies of others	[19:46]
asciilifeform:	and yes this is what various reddit anons told me in 2010, 'we pray for LEGIT RELEASE!11'	[19:46]
asciilifeform:	phf: i have 0 idea of what is the goal of others. can only infer.	[19:47]
asciilifeform:	it, very clearly, is not to put the necessary info to rebuild the machine, out in the open asap.	[19:47]
asciilifeform:	it is very obviously something else. but what that something else is -- i am not privy to.	[19:47]
asciilifeform:	( to go on the board of a rebuilt smbx co ?? i have nfi. )	[19:48]
asciilifeform:	anyway this thread is not a personal stick to poke at phf, but at ~all~ of the culprits.	[19:48]
asciilifeform:	they know who they are.	[19:48]
asciilifeform:	and imho oughta Feel Bad.	[19:48]
asciilifeform:	this includes dks, incidentally, who wouldn't even answer my mail after my lab closed down	[19:49]
asciilifeform:	much less to tell me about the magical shithub	[19:49]
asciilifeform:	after i spent 1k of own funbux, and 9k of usa's, in his shop.	[19:49]
phf:	fwiw, i'm not buying "old iron", and you'll know why i'm going there if you dig up literally the last set of pms we exchanged.	[19:59]
phf:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1624960 << http://kbdbabel.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/kbdbabel/kbdbabel/kbdbabel-symbolics-ps2/	[20:01]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-11 00:10 asciilifeform: phf: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/Symbolics3600Keyboard.png and -- laboriously extracted empirically !! -- http://www.loper-os.org/pub/bolix_keys.txt	[20:01]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform well... quietly.	[20:02]
mircea_popescu:	the problem is one of indexing not properly of publishing.	[20:02]
asciilifeform:	phf: oh neato, can you buy kbdbabel ?	[20:02]
asciilifeform:	also phf yes i recall why you were going. but in light of the instruction set being out... my mind boggles, why to bother with ANYTHING but fpgaization pronto.	[20:03]
asciilifeform:	srsly. what have all of you whisperin' folk been ~thinking~ since '09.	[20:03]
mircea_popescu:	fpga still cost moneyz yes	[20:03]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: one of the necessary size, is about fiddybux eat. in qty1.	[20:04]
asciilifeform:	*each	[20:04]
asciilifeform:	can run with sram, even, afaik no smbx box shipped with more than 24M or so.	[20:04]
asciilifeform:	the entire machine would handily fit in my ~smallest~ fpga board.	[20:04]
asciilifeform:	just like nintendo fits.	[20:05]
* mircea_popescu	has nothing\	[20:05]
phf:	i think the implication is that "whisperers" are so poor (being dirty redditors) they can't even buy a cheap fpga	[20:05]
asciilifeform:	i won't telepsychoanalyze phf or any other of the other folx. but i gotta wonder wtf was in their heads.	[20:05]
asciilifeform:	phf: if there is one thing bolix aficionados is not, is poor.	[20:06]
asciilifeform:	what's an 'ivory' cost, 3k usd? 4 ?	[20:06]
mircea_popescu:	phf so far i'm just trying to probe this crater, i have nfi what's going on.	[20:06]
mircea_popescu:	he does prima facie seem to have a point, just not altogether sure what it is.	[20:06]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: since '09 or so i was one of very few people publicly interested in reversing the bolix gear. and apparently ~all of the aficionados, saw me as 'dangerous fool' who 'might piss off dks'...	[20:07]
mircea_popescu:	is it ?	[20:08]
asciilifeform:	is which	[20:08]
mircea_popescu:	is it the case that's what they thought etc.	[20:08]
asciilifeform:	i don't have a cable into their heads, cannot say for certain what the cockroaches therein were doing.	[20:09]
asciilifeform:	can only deduce.	[20:09]
mircea_popescu:	but fwiw, i don't credit the "irreplaceable treasure" theory.	[20:09]
asciilifeform:	deducing not only from http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625044 but from the few dozen comments when the warez came out	[20:10]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-11 00:42 phf: the timing of this rant is amusing, because i'm flying out to dks's tomorrow. which is why last time we talked about it i ~explicitly asked you not to rant about this in public~. if nobody cares about symbolics proper, then people certainly do care about the fickle opinions of older men, who are sitting on irreplaceable treasure troves of smbx technology.	[20:10]
mircea_popescu:	sbmx is worth ~0 today, on its own merit through its own work.	[20:10]
mircea_popescu:	it is ~the inept old men~ that MUST care about ~our~ opinions.	[20:10]
mircea_popescu:	i can't bring myself to move my piss away from dks, or anyone in his generation's face.	[20:11]
asciilifeform:	^^^	[20:11]
mircea_popescu:	let them fucking drown, maggots below the stinkiest whore.	[20:11]
mircea_popescu:	all. and their mothers and their daughters with them.	[20:11]
mircea_popescu:	the time for thinking them worth > price of christian burial was, maybe, at the latest, 2007. certainly not 2017.	[20:12]
asciilifeform:	i also suspect that the folks sitting on 4-10k worth of 'ivories' don't relish them suddenly being worth what nintendo is worth.	[20:13]
asciilifeform:	is possibly other reason why they did not care to help me fpgaize it.	[20:13]
phf:	well, we've established that whatever i'm doing in that space is avocation. so the "worth" is entirely subjective	[20:13]
mircea_popescu:	dude... 10k. a 1% of a real estate deal gone south. who cares.	[20:13]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: it's a 'rembrandt', was expected to go 'to the moon'	[20:14]
mircea_popescu:	phf the worth is always an objective, public matter. that you like inept whore / bad painting / whatever in your own livingroom does not make it worth anything.	[20:14]
asciilifeform:	and it's tru, the surplus 1201 was free (rubbish dumps) in late '90s, maybe 500 bux in 2000, but now costs 3-10k	[20:14]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform anyone doing the rembrandt moon game has thousands of different ones, does not care.	[20:14]
mircea_popescu:	if cares, is approximately wigger in a different wig.	[20:14]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: the contemplated pathology is that of that ro d00d who owned ~1~ rembrandt	[20:15]
mircea_popescu:	yawell.	[20:15]
mircea_popescu:	ftr it's still not altogether clear to me what went on and bad indexing still parsimonious explanation anyway.	[20:15]
asciilifeform:	and, quite verily, they WILL be worth roughly their worth in gold reclamation, if fpga appears.	[20:15]
mircea_popescu:	maybe they simply did not grok they had item you wanted, it happens.	[20:16]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: maaaaany years of 'bad indexing'	[20:16]
mircea_popescu:	yep	[20:16]
asciilifeform:	the ai lab d00d also had nfi that the source existed.	[20:16]
mircea_popescu:	that's the distinguishing feature of it - as many years as until you notice.	[20:16]
asciilifeform:	also i WROTE TO BRAD PARKER 4 TIMES	[20:16]
asciilifeform:	he never answered.	[20:16]
asciilifeform:	i wrote to motherfucking kalman reti, phf	[20:16]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform here's the problem : your algo (talk to peaks) is provedly, and notoriously, bad for breaking out of bad indexing tarpit.	[20:16]
asciilifeform:	i wrote to him as a LICENSED BUYER	[20:16]
asciilifeform:	as a signer of a motherfucking 9k cheque	[20:17]
mircea_popescu:	gotta maintain network IN BREADTH (lol ben_vulpes !) to fight that problem	[20:17]
asciilifeform:	0 reply.	[20:17]
mircea_popescu:	no matter all this.	[20:17]
mircea_popescu:	you know exactly what i'm saying. peak talk is no solution to bad index.	[20:17]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: i was answering, in extended form, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1624984	[20:17]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-11 00:18 phf: your approach to sourcing this info is by googling, while actually getting in touch with people who might know is derided as "whispering". while the content's been published and public since forever, those who follow along presumbly knew since then	[20:17]
mircea_popescu:	still.	[20:17]
asciilifeform:	i definitely was not 'limited to googling.'	[20:17]
mircea_popescu:	but you also did not cast a 10`000 whores net.	[20:18]
asciilifeform:	i dun have 10`000 whores.	[20:18]
mircea_popescu:	this is not germane.	[20:18]
asciilifeform:	huminted with own miserable body, every muscle of it.	[20:18]
mircea_popescu:	the solution to bad indexing is a lot of dirty nodes, not a few "l1" ones.	[20:18]
phf:	^	[20:18]
mircea_popescu:	and this is a very important point, and cogent throughout, including re trb-i design	[20:18]
asciilifeform:	i wrote to more or less everybody who more or less so much as mentioned having heard of a lispm.	[20:20]
mircea_popescu:	nor do i mean it as a belittlement. obviously train runs on tracks, car runs on road but lower efficiency 4wd needs not road even worse efficiency etc. you are what you are -- but just so, the problem is what it is.	[20:20]
mircea_popescu:	keep yer cool with it.	[20:20]
asciilifeform:	wrote to the lmi d00d, convinced him to open the lmi sources ! successfully!	[20:20]
asciilifeform:	(which helped 0 with smbx)	[20:20]
mircea_popescu:	i'm not saying it never works!	[20:20]
mircea_popescu:	i'm saying you can't rely on it always working! cache misses are a thing, local maxima capture is a thing, whadda ya want	[20:20]
mircea_popescu:	not like you don't know all this, abstractly.	[20:21]
asciilifeform:	the thing that boggles my mind, mircea_popescu , is that quite a few of these people ~knew~ what i was trying to do, and did not want it to happen.	[20:21]
mircea_popescu:	eh\	[20:21]
phf:	i don't know anyone who has direct line of communication to kalman, short of dks, but brad parker is notoriously spotty at communication and 4 emails is ~simply not enough~	[20:21]
asciilifeform:	which would seem to run contrary to their professed aims.	[20:21]
mircea_popescu:	look, you're overintegrated.	[20:21]
asciilifeform:	phf: i was given him as a paid support .	[20:21]
asciilifeform:	worst paid support ever.	[20:21]
asciilifeform:	0 answered mails.	[20:21]
mircea_popescu:	"see that chick at the table two over ? no don't look! yeah! so she knows i'm trying to get laid, and doesn't want me to get laid!!11"	[20:21]
mircea_popescu:	cmon.	[20:21]
mircea_popescu:	phf emails also basically suck. who even reads them. do they even arrive anymore ? etc.	[20:22]
asciilifeform:	picture this, mircea_popescu , 100% of d00d's income comes from pentagon, and he won't answer a .mil mail.	[20:23]
asciilifeform:	there exists 0 .mil spam.	[20:23]
asciilifeform:	it simply isn't athing, like there is no used chewing gum on the moon.	[20:23]
mircea_popescu:	tru story : i wrote to romanian minister of foreign affairs incensed romanian consul failed to answer my emails. turns out... clever spamfilter, woman was mortified.	[20:24]
mircea_popescu:	you know ?	[20:24]
asciilifeform:	i could, with difficulty, believe, sure.	[20:24]
mircea_popescu:	hey, it never occured to me, or them, until it occured.	[20:24]
asciilifeform:	but same thing happening, every single fucking time, all the way up to phf staying mum re the src.	[20:24]
asciilifeform:	it just melts my poor brains.	[20:24]
mircea_popescu:	hm	[20:24]
mircea_popescu:	phf why was it you didn't link him again ?	[20:25]
phf:	asciilifeform comes on very strong with the whole "i know" shtick, so i simply assumed that he knows what he wants to know.	[20:26]
asciilifeform:	i'll buy this, because i'd rather buy this than 'phf is afraid of smbxmasons revenge'	[20:27]
mircea_popescu:	ie never occured to you he never saw the link ?	[20:27]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform that's such rank nonsense, the fuck would anyone care.	[20:27]
mircea_popescu:	instead, buy this : there is A COST to, eg, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-09#1623621	[20:29]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-09 02:12 asciilifeform: kindergartener knows	[20:29]
phf:	it never occured that he wanted the link. when he said "i want snap4 source" i assumed he's talking about the original alpha source, or a complete working lispm emulator from scratch, a spherical horse of "working, readable lispm emulator", rather then what's actually there	[20:29]
mircea_popescu:	different apparently from merely the momentary rhetorical issue.	[20:29]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: does, e.g., http://www.loper-os.org/?p=52 and http://www.loper-os.org/?p=53 read like work of someone who 'already knows all' ?	[20:30]
phf:	he's welcome, in his own words, to "go, implement". having read that code, i'm unconvinced that it's the "buddha's front gate" to a working lispm fpga	[20:30]
asciilifeform:	why would i buy the machine and haul it up into my flat to saw it open, if 'already knew all'	[20:30]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform there.is.a.cost.to.kindergartner.knows.device.	[20:30]
asciilifeform:	phf: you're quite right that it isn't. thing is an astonishing pile of gnarl. but all of the necessary info, is ~inside~ it, just like 'bitcoin' lives inside the rubbish of trb	[20:30]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: may be	[20:30]
mircea_popescu:	is.	[20:31]
mircea_popescu:	you just, in my estimation, bit it.	[20:31]
mircea_popescu:	not that there's anything wrong with it, as a device. it's funny, even. but if man becomes his devices man misses out on things which, upon examination, man did not want to miss.	[20:31]
asciilifeform:	i did mention http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-07#1598449 for instance.	[20:32]
a111:	Logged on 2017-01-07 19:02 asciilifeform: all i got, for the most part, is what is in the wall-o-deadtree manuals, and what i gleaned from reversing 'snap4' binary in ida.	[20:32]
asciilifeform:	was it possible to misread this as 'he has the src' ?	[20:32]
mircea_popescu:	unlikely, in light of this conversation, but yes, in light of the bias load.	[20:32]
asciilifeform:	i also uttered http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-08#1623406 for instance.	[20:32]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-08 23:26 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i did describe earlier, having concluded a few yrs ago that it is cheaper, easier, moar pleasant, to cut appart 'snap4' emulator (i have a pc build here ~with debug symbols~, comes apart in ida nicely) than to suffer with nitric acid and electron microscope	[20:32]
mircea_popescu:	any one line is also passible of having been skipped / partially parsed and then silently dumped / etc.	[20:33]
asciilifeform:	sure.	[20:33]
asciilifeform:	and nobody ever put 'snap4' into the search box, to find out wtf it was.	[20:33]
mircea_popescu:	and yes, i understand how fucking petryfing and utterly enraging this is, "shit, wtf do these dorks sit on i need and they won't say"	[20:33]
asciilifeform:	well, for instance, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-19#1615635	[20:34]
a111:	Logged on 2017-02-19 17:37 phf: i'm not sure, but i remember you have to put a handful of magic incantations to live fix clx on genera to make it connect to crapple's x11	[20:34]
asciilifeform:	now if phf dun wanna publish his src, whateverses, who am i to say that he must	[20:34]
mircea_popescu:	he might also not have a more useful clue than quoted.	[20:35]
asciilifeform:	but it's a bit rich to talk about a 'community' of smbx people that doesn't share with asciilifeform 'because it doesn't know'	[20:35]
mircea_popescu:	not like he's 65.	[20:35]
mircea_popescu:	there's no "smbx community".	[20:35]
deedbot:	http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/6850990FBF120FDFEE3B833114382DD945ED65AEAA5BCBCCFFC82C391E34AE5E << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1496...4059 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '80.81.115.100 (ssh-rsa key from 80.81.115.100 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt> ' (Unknown ES CS VC)	[20:35]
deedbot:	http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/6850990FBF120FDFEE3B833114382DD945ED65AEAA5BCBCCFFC82C391E34AE5E << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1390...8517 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '80.81.115.100 (ssh-rsa key from 80.81.115.100 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt> ' (Unknown ES CS VC)	[20:35]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: actually there is, it includes illustrious folx like http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-08#1623419	[20:35]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-08 23:57 asciilifeform: this isn't the only 1 on the net, either, i found several, they bought lispms, one took hundreds of photos of himself 'hipstering' near it, then one final one where it (??!) burned down	[20:35]
mircea_popescu:	the "set of people who bought lispm" have nfi what lispm even is, on average.	[20:36]
asciilifeform:	and brad parker, very literate d00d who ported genera emulator to x64	[20:36]
asciilifeform:	and kalman reti, official maintainer, sent me -- a PAYING buyer -- 0 patches	[20:36]
asciilifeform:	and dks, and whole orchestra.	[20:36]
mircea_popescu:	and rms went to glbse "conference". and and.	[20:37]
mircea_popescu:	they're idiots, what.	[20:37]
asciilifeform:	rms, the talking mushroom, is not connected	[20:37]
mircea_popescu:	if they weren't idiots, they'd be here.	[20:37]
mircea_popescu:	person > 50yo, their brain likely isn't connected. to anything.	[20:38]
asciilifeform:	dks is ~90 yr old now	[20:38]
asciilifeform:	i forgive him all	[20:38]
asciilifeform:	but other folx --. 0 excuse.	[20:38]
phf:	literally none of these people are directly in my wot, and my interactions with them are as frustrating as yours. but with patience you can extract useful things out of them. yours and mp's conclusion is that there's nothing of worth there, well then!	[20:38]
asciilifeform:	phf: i can't speak for mircea_popescu , but i don't specialize in hasty conclusions	[20:39]
mircea_popescu:	phf my conclusion is built out of a lot of disinterest, mind.	[20:39]
mircea_popescu:	i truly couldn't care less.	[20:39]
asciilifeform:	if , for example, there are detailed design docs, or yet-nonpublic sources in there, phf is well justified in his continued skulduggery perhaps	[20:39]
phf:	i think there's a lot of general "couldn't care less"-ness going on all around. whisperers don't care about asciilifeform's plight	[20:39]
mircea_popescu:	ie, they may have proven themselves to you, but they have not to me. as far as im concerned, stroutsup = dks = tim swanson = leah what's her ass = etcetera.	[20:39]
asciilifeform:	but even so it's a bit rich , to silently watch asciilifeform considering to buy electron microscope, to get at WHAT PHF HAD IN HIS POCKET already omfg.	[20:40]
mircea_popescu:	i expect, yes.	[20:40]
phf:	asciilifeform: i don't think that's a wasted effort. i got in touch with zeptobars people again, and my current best option (since they said shipping to russia is maddness) is to travel moscows sometime in summer and hand deliver the chip. assuming that i have one, but i take it you're no longer interested since "snap4 source"	[20:41]
asciilifeform:	phf: you can have for cost of postage !	[20:41]
mircea_popescu:	i mail to/fro russia all teh time ?	[20:42]
asciilifeform:	srsly, i'm not one of them weird folx who whisper around. phf can have the iron, or gpggram where to send.	[20:42]
asciilifeform:	also i never had any problems mailing to ru	[20:42]
asciilifeform:	this must be new	[20:42]
phf:	i'd rather not loose a chip in transit, and since avocation, i don't care about time frames.	[20:42]
asciilifeform:	tru	[20:42]
mircea_popescu:	there is also that i guess.	[20:42]
asciilifeform:	sorta how i hand-delivered sample rng to c3	[20:42]
asciilifeform:	and anyway now that the bizarre kabuki re ' asciilifeform must not get the src !' is blown (is it blown ? or is there yet moar..?) maybe folx can publish, like sane people	[20:43]
mircea_popescu:	they will lose random single digit % of mailings inexplicably impredictably and irrecoverably.	[20:44]
asciilifeform:	anyway phf i meant american postbox	[20:44]
asciilifeform:	say where it wants to go, i'll fedex it, at own expense.	[20:44]
deedbot:	http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/02831AAF0259AD51745CBD51091D0E7AD30A88584C00EFBFFAA8D60024DC398B << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1631...9839 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '93.90.184.118 (ssh-rsa key from 93.90.184.118 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt> ' (Unknown DE)	[20:44]
deedbot:	http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/02831AAF0259AD51745CBD51091D0E7AD30A88584C00EFBFFAA8D60024DC398B << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1424...1989 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '93.90.184.118 (ssh-rsa key from 93.90.184.118 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt> ' (Unknown DE)	[20:44]
phf:	i would very much like to start a clandestine operation called "the whisperers", but since it's not in the logs, someone else will have to do it	[20:48]
mircea_popescu:	the mare whisperers. do horse porn with it.	[20:48]
phf:	our sole objective will be making all the asciilifeform's assumptions true	[20:49]
mircea_popescu:	even now, you understand this alfie, EVEN NOW there's girls spreading for random dorks somewhere notwithstanding you're looking for a girl just like them. and they won't as much as whatsapp a notification to you!	[20:49]
* mircea_popescu	briefly imagines how a world like that would be, where he'd get notifications of every vaguely eligible bachelorette on an hourly basis. good god what a terrible crapsack fit for sf.	[20:51]
mircea_popescu:	suppose in the future that's how it works, dating consists of about 5bn notifications ~per capita~ of "hey, x is about to go out with $randomdude"	[20:51]
trinque:	pretty sure that's how it works now	[20:52]
mircea_popescu:	oh ?	[20:52]
mircea_popescu:	holy shit, facebook does this doesn't it	[20:52]
trinque:	aha	[20:52]
trinque:	"such and so went to X and look here are pictures of them drinking bad booze in plastic cups"	[20:53]
mircea_popescu:	i even knew this! say eg http://trilema.com/2015/el-defloreador-tum-tum-tudum-tum-tum/	[20:57]
mircea_popescu:	(dude made fb event "i've deflorarated myself!")	[20:57]
asciilifeform:	phf: it just blows my mind, if random d00d had not tipped me off, i could handily go ANOTHER 8 YEARS of ida	[21:06]
asciilifeform:	and of electron microscope.	[21:06]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: if my cock were one of 10 in existence, and the chicks all knew, and still avoided, i would have to seriously wonder wtf, maybe it points in wrong direction, or i have dog's head, or what.	[21:07]
mircea_popescu:	yes, yes. i'm just being an asshole.	[21:08]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: it is impossible, even on google, to look for smbx-anything without finding asciilifeform's www.	[21:08]
asciilifeform:	my pessimistic reading of this picture is that all of the folx who a) knew b) knew that asciilifeform wanted to know c) didn't tell -- were playing some peculiar power game in their heads, re 'access to the treasure trove', and how mean ol' asciilifeform wants to take this magic access and make it worth 0 ...	[21:09]
mircea_popescu:	sure.	[21:09]
asciilifeform:	and phf earlier was right, it is very difficult to clone the iron EVEN with the src	[21:10]
asciilifeform:	but picture how difficult, WITHOUT it	[21:10]
mircea_popescu:	alternatively, they a) didn't know (either item) b) didn't care c) didn't know they don't know d) didn't care they don't know and so folllowing.	[21:10]
trinque:	getting old and having failed is a thing.	[21:10]
mircea_popescu:	a large part of the problem being that in a "democracy" there's ~no incentive to behave in a less shitty manner.	[21:10]
mircea_popescu:	hey, they're free people self determination etc rite ?	[21:11]
asciilifeform:	aaaha.	[21:11]
mircea_popescu:	nobody ever kicks anyone out of a dinner for being vegetarian, why the hell would anyone worry what people think of him for not having done x thing de rigueur.	[21:11]
mircea_popescu:	diversity!	[21:11]
asciilifeform:	trinque: the interesting bit, and yes i drilled deeply enough through the dried gangrene to get at the pus, is that there were and remain people who enjoy sitting on the embers of dead smbx more than they want to see the tech come back to life	[21:13]
asciilifeform:	so long as they get 'feeling of power' from koscheiing on the embers.	[21:13]
asciilifeform:	this is the stuff dark ages are made of.	[21:13]
asciilifeform:	not the caliph stoking his furnace, no.	[21:13]
mircea_popescu:	listen, you will find ~same wherever you drill, old democrats, "russian engineers" active pre 1990, etc.	[21:13]
mircea_popescu:	old men are universally smelly in the same way.	[21:14]
mircea_popescu:	which is why young women dont' like them.	[21:14]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: actually i find ~opposite~ with su engineers	[21:14]
mircea_popescu:	depends to some degree who/which you talk to.	[21:14]
asciilifeform:	for fucks sake, the guy who invented refal, is still active (or his son..?)	[21:14]
asciilifeform:	you can download refal!	[21:14]
mircea_popescu:	but this is a plain converse issue of "coffin liner"	[21:14]
asciilifeform:	fwiw all (afaik) of the people actually responsible for the managerial demise of smbx, are dead	[21:15]
asciilifeform:	so none of the now-living folx can have what to be ashamed of, other than their whispering.	[21:15]
mircea_popescu:	never as simple as all that.	[21:15]
mircea_popescu:	consider the point! http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625177 << to this i could say, "the defensive play, of course, being to always link to the baseline when a field is discussed" to which his retort would be, of course, "yeah and hell just say a string with kindergarten in it".	[21:18]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-11 01:29 phf: it never occured that he wanted the link. when he said "i want snap4 source" i assumed he's talking about the original alpha source, or a complete working lispm emulator from scratch, a spherical horse of "working, readable lispm emulator", rather then what's actually there	[21:18]
phf:	asciilifeform: you've made a lot of unfounded assumptions. somehow everyone acts in bad faith unless they involve asciilifeform in their going ons?	[21:18]
mircea_popescu:	if you -ev people doing base work, you -ev your own future.	[21:18]
mircea_popescu:	and this is a general tendency, not just here. consdier $random example : http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-09#1623902	[21:19]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-09 19:06 phf: (if nobody else steps up, i'm going to bring one up in a day or two)	[21:19]
mircea_popescu:	why phrase it as this rather than plainly "i will" ? to place disincentive on others doing it ? (hey, if i do it he won't) rather than incentive (he's doing it, let me do it too) ?	[21:20]
asciilifeform:	phf: didja miss where i noted that i wrote to them ? and signed fat cheques to some of'em ?	[21:20]
mircea_popescu:	none of the self-harming behaviours of mankind are examined, or deliberately chosen	[21:20]
mircea_popescu:	they "just are".	[21:20]
trinque:	and if the nemesis is there in the mind even in people who are quite functional yet, what happens to an old failed man?	[21:21]
phf:	mircea_popescu: i noticed that here focusing on something is an incentive for others to also focus on it	[21:21]
mircea_popescu:	myeah. but nemesis quite is in the mind.	[21:21]
* asciilifeform	bbl, meat	[21:21]
mircea_popescu:	phf entirely idle example, no more important than strand of hay, which is why chosen here, illustrates beautifully.	[21:22]
* phf	nods	[21:26]
Framedragger:	oh lord. creation of seven-levels-deep directories (in the format of "6d56/a6f4/f1d5/67a3/505c/a7d0/9c72/6fff/e75e/a482/e36b/6b5b/7421/f9cf/e36a/", with last 8th level being symlink) takes a long time, and is also space-wasteful on ext4. to 'store' 1k transactions it takes ~0.41s and takes up 59M of space. this without actual symlinks (should be fast but should check later). removal is ~0.45s	[22:38]
Framedragger:	(with that, i bid goodnight)	[22:38]
Framedragger:	(would advise against deep folder structure assuming no concrete reason to prefer it. just-symlinks (+/-) seems better. but then not sure if to think much of fs anyway.)	[22:39]
Framedragger:	(~60k to store 'transaction' (excluding symlink itself)!! this is the price of deeper fs trees)	[22:41]
Framedragger:	(btw the 'creation' is not bottlenecked by python or w/e straight syscalls and simple c, and the random hex generator is a small footprint)	[22:45]
Framedragger:	(removal is just `rm -r`)	[22:45]
* Framedragger	will check tomorrow if the insane size was from his shitty c. but actually, probably not - in ext3/ext4, a folder is an inode and an inode points to unique data block - minimum size of which is 4k. given an expansive recursive tree, you get what you get.	[22:53]
asciilifeform:	Framedragger: imho the 'use existing fs' thing is a dead end.	[23:05]
asciilifeform:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625206 << ceramica inteligente !!	[23:25]
a111:	Logged on 2017-03-11 01:35 deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/6850990FBF120FDFEE3B833114382DD945ED65AEAA5BCBCCFFC82C391E34AE5E << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1390...8517 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '80.81.115.100 (ssh-rsa key from 80.81.115.100 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt> ' (Unknown ES CS VC)	[23:25]
asciilifeform:	( didjaknow ! )	[23:25]
asciilifeform:	( http://80.81.115.100 )	[23:27]
BingoBoingo:	!~ticker --market all	[23:56]
jhvh1:	BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 1145.0, vol: 34915.37432737 \| BTC-E BTCUSD last: 1146.416, vol: 19122.32782 \| Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 1146.3, vol: 110448.15137048 \| BTCChina BTCUSD last: 1117.7112, vol: 15252.86520000 \| Kraken BTCUSD last: 1145.0, vol: 9373.13416481 \| Volume-weighted last average: 1143.70144271	[23:56]

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