Forum logs for 04 Jul 2015

Sunday, 24 November, Year 11 d.Tr. | Author: Mircea Popescu

decimation	at any rate, I'm imagining ways to sew parachutes before they are needed	[00:00]
asciilifeform	when else.	[00:00]
*	mike_c (~mike_c@unaffiliated/mike-c/x-9105598) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[00:01]
*	assbot gives voice to mike_c	[00:01]
decimation	unfortunately with the effective bandwidth needed by the current blockchain makes global synchronization quite expensive	[00:02]
decimation	and internet-dependent	[00:02]
decimation	weird, the last four blocks had no transactions	[00:04]
asciilifeform	this may well be one of those things that can be made 'as simple as possible but not simpler'	[00:04]
asciilifeform	weird, the last four blocks had no transactions << betcha somebody's playing with the 'tx selector' thing	[00:05]
asciilifeform	and botched horribly	[00:05]
decimation	I guess as long as they find a block that matches difficulty it will be valid	[00:06]
decimation	it would sure make it simpler to devise a big asic machine to find hashes if it doesn't need to bother with transactions	[00:06]
asciilifeform	not really	[00:07]
decimation	although you would give up on fees	[00:07]
asciilifeform	given the merkle tree thing, tx's don't really add to the load	[00:07]
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decimation	ah yeah good point	[00:08]
asciilifeform	but it would stand to reason that miners will eventually exert more tx fee pressure	[00:08]
asciilifeform	perhaps this is already happening.	[00:08]
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decimation	the big blocks are running nearly a mb or so	[00:09]
asciilifeform	at any rate, various folks have mined empties before. afaik, it is not publicly known precisely why.	[00:09]
asciilifeform	decimation: bozos are stuffing'em full of garbage tx, in an attempt to prop up gavinism	[00:09]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 90320 @ 0.00051341 = 46.3712 BTC [-] {2}	[00:10]
decimation	asciilifeform: maybe the naked blocks are a counterpoint :)	[00:13]
decimation	5 blocks. 4 are attributed to f2pool, one to antpool by blockchain.info	[00:14]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13830 @ 0.00051629 = 7.1403 BTC [+]	[00:15]
punkman	didn't those guys want 8mb blocks?	[00:15]
*	asciilifeform kinda wants a wall-sized callgraph of therealbitcoin	[00:19]
asciilifeform	possibly using http://www.csn.ul.ie/~mel/projects/codeviz	[00:19]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1NCXyX5 )	[00:19]
asciilifeform	nubbins` ^^^	[00:19]
decimation	asciilifeform: I've tried printing such things before, even on a big plotter the results are disappointing	[00:20]
asciilifeform	how come ?	[00:20]
decimation	plotter is usually limited to 4 ft rolls I think	[00:20]
decimation	so you gotta make multiple passes	[00:20]
asciilifeform	local printery has 4ft inkjets	[00:20]
decimation	sure, but you gotta spend time massaging the graph into something legible even at that size	[00:21]
decimation	what comes out of 'dot' tends to be fucktarded with complex graphs	[00:21]
asciilifeform	so far i'm utterly failing to even get 'codeviz' to build.	[00:22]
asciilifeform	it seems to insist on downloading an ancient gcc and fails	[00:22]
decimation	heh	[00:22]
asciilifeform	mod6, ben_vulpes ^^^ who wants to try	[00:22]
decimation	to be clear, my experience is mainly with feeding dot such things, not from codeviz	[00:22]
asciilifeform	i want the fucking callgraph	[00:22]
asciilifeform	on my wall	[00:22]
asciilifeform	tired of looking at the thing through a keyhole	[00:23]
decimation	I think you can massage valgrind to dump callgraph	[00:23]
asciilifeform	want static callgraph	[00:23]
asciilifeform	rather than one which depends on a walk	[00:23]
mod6	<+asciilifeform> mod6, ben_vulpes ^^^ who wants to try << i might be able to give it a go later this weekend ... maybe.	[00:24]
decimation	as in, all possible routes into and out of functions?	[00:24]
mod6	any idea how old of a version is required?	[00:24]
asciilifeform	mod6: it's 4.something but dies because not found on the gnu ftp	[00:25]
asciilifeform	http://www.gson.org/egypt/egypt.html << another tool	[00:25]
assbot	egypt - create call graph from gcc RTL dump ... ( http://bit.ly/1NCXWVC )	[00:25]
asciilifeform	not tried yet.	[00:25]
mod6	ah, i can give it a go with something as old as like 4.5.4 for sure.	[00:25]
asciilifeform	http://kcachegrind.sourceforge.net/html/Shot3Large.html << and yet another.	[00:26]
mod6	maybe even 4.0.4 (if it'll build)	[00:26]
assbot	KCachegrind ... ( http://bit.ly/1NCXYgf )	[00:26]
*	CheckDavid has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)	[00:26]
asciilifeform	^ refuses to build on my boxes also	[00:27]
asciilifeform	qt retardation	[00:27]
mod6	as always :]	[00:30]
decimation	the egypt thing appears to have limited support for C++	[00:31]
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cazalla	apparently network forked or some business	[00:32]
punkman	http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3c2cnj/f2pool_is_not_properly_validating_blocks_their/	[00:35]
assbot	F2Pool is not properly validating blocks, their fork is winning temporarily. SPV clients and Blockchain.info are inaccurate : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1Kzrh5m )	[00:35]
punkman	shitgnomes strike again?	[00:35]
decimation	why are they 'inaccurate'	[00:36]
mats	o calamity	[00:36]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10653 @ 0.00051757 = 5.5137 BTC [+]	[00:38]
decimation	it does seem blockchain.info and insight.bitpay.com have two different chains	[00:39]
punkman	"BIP66 protocol rule changes have gone active in part thanks to Antpool and F2Pool's support of it - but their pool appears to not actually be enforcing the new rules, and is now mining invalid blocks."	[00:40]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 84234 @ 0.00051578 = 43.4462 BTC [-] {3}	[00:40]
punkman	"SPV nodes and Bitcoin Core prior to 0.10.0 may get false confirmations, possibly >6 blocks long, until this is resolved."	[00:40]
mats	so you're saying now is the time to fleece bitpay	[00:46]
decimation	here's the bip66 diff https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5713/files	[00:47]
assbot	Implement BIP66 by sipa · Pull Request #5713 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1KzsolH )	[00:47]
mircea_popescu	sooo... we splitted hjuh ?	[00:52]
decimation	looks like it yes	[00:52]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 66300 @ 0.0005095 = 33.7799 BTC [-] {2}	[00:52]
mircea_popescu	;;bc,stats	[00:52]
gribble	Current Blocks: 363736 \| Current Difficulty: 4.940201493122746E10 \| Next Difficulty At Block: 364895 \| Next Difficulty In: 1159 blocks \| Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 0 days, 13 hours, 48 minutes, and 14 seconds \| Next Difficulty Estimate: None \| Estimated Percent Change: None	[00:52]
mircea_popescu	i see 736 throughout	[00:53]
mats	it stalls	[00:53]
decimation	and apparently several folks fucked it up too	[00:53]
mircea_popescu	hm.	[00:53]
decimation	so this 'IsSuperMajority' code is totally absent in 0.5.3.1	[00:53]
*	WolfGoethe has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)	[00:53]
mircea_popescu	they'd just all happen to be employees of the house. << if you only divulge winning tickets you get the natural occurence of winners + extras.	[00:54]
mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes, mod6, mircea_popescu, et al: anybody interested in multiprocessorizing bitcoin sig check ? << i don't see the benefit.	[00:54]
mircea_popescu	decimation old nodes are all fine.	[00:55]
mircea_popescu	apparently new nodes are all shit.	[00:55]
mircea_popescu	news at 12:55, which happens to be the time here.	[00:55]
mod6	heheh	[00:56]
decimation	do they reject 0.5.3.1 blocks because the nVersion = 1?	[00:56]
mircea_popescu	Raising Darwin's Consciousness << all this "consciousness" bs reads to me like direct pastiche from "class consciousness" or however that nonsense was translated to english	[00:57]
mircea_popescu	i don't run one so nfi what its problem would be. ion all likeliness something stupid.	[00:58]
mats	looking forward to seeing the post mortem in the morning	[00:59]
mircea_popescu	of the active users. << well, like a dozen or so people, spent a month in game last month. so like, 2 hrs / day or somesuch	[00:59]
mats	and hopefully discount coins	[00:59]
mircea_popescu	heh we actually are forked nao. i dun see any such 738	[01:03]
decimation	yeah I think we were forked a long time ago actually	[01:04]
decimation	this getconsensus stuff is lulzy	[01:04]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1186461 << sync at line speed	[01:07]
assbot	Logged on 04-07-2015 03:50:47; mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes, mod6, mircea_popescu, et al: anybody interested in multiprocessorizing bitcoin sig check ? << i don't see the benefit.	[01:07]
asciilifeform	is the benefit.	[01:07]
asciilifeform	having to wait for cpu on a 16 core box is retarded.	[01:07]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform listen, seems the chain actually forked.	[01:07]
asciilifeform	i see	[01:07]
mircea_popescu	none of my nodes verify the imaginary 737-738 blockchain.info claims to exist.	[01:07]
phf	somebody was saying bitcoind doesn't build on a 32 bit system?	[01:09]
asciilifeform	phf: pogo is 32bit	[01:09]
asciilifeform	builds beautifully	[01:09]
mircea_popescu	accepted connection 148.251.238.178:55366	[01:09]
mircea_popescu	version message: version 70002, blocks=363738	[01:09]
phf	ah	[01:09]
mircea_popescu	363738 16 minutes 320 4,982.79 BTC BitFury 180.66	[01:10]
mircea_popescu	363737 21 minutes 166 3,059.67 BTC BW.COM 65.25	[01:10]
mircea_popescu	anyone actually see these ?	[01:10]
asciilifeform	axe-time, sword-time	[01:10]
*	ag3nt_zer0 (328f93cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.143.147.207) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[01:10]
mircea_popescu	seems so.	[01:11]
mircea_popescu	i guess they eventually settled on pretending it's an accident or what ?	[01:12]
ben_vulpes	FORK	[01:12]
ben_vulpes	FORK?	[01:12]
ben_vulpes	FORK!	[01:12]
ben_vulpes	forkforkforkforkfork	[01:12]
asciilifeform	0.8 sees the phork	[01:12]
ben_vulpes	ph0rk	[01:12]
asciilifeform	phr0k	[01:12]
mircea_popescu	i dun see another peer other than the 148 above that claims to have 738	[01:13]
ben_vulpes	r4ngn4phr0k	[01:13]
mircea_popescu	[ This is the only occurrence ]	[01:13]
mircea_popescu	anyone see one ?	[01:13]
*	asciilifeform envious of mircea_popescu's spiffy ph0rkdebugger	[01:13]
mircea_popescu	( cat debug.log \| grep -B3 "blocks=363738" if nothing else)	[01:13]
asciilifeform	but yes, i've had sync scrolling for says, and seeing quite a few 'nonstandard tx, rejected...'	[01:14]
mircea_popescu	yes, but those happen all teh time	[01:14]
asciilifeform	yes.	[01:14]
mircea_popescu	https://blockchain.info/blocks << apparently they orphaned everything past bw.com's https://blockchain.info/block-height/363730	[01:15]
assbot	Blocks mined on 04/07/2015	[01:15]
assbot	Bitcoin Blocks At Height 363730 ... ( http://bit.ly/1RXfLQv )	[01:15]
mircea_popescu	looks a lot like a withholding chain attack tbh	[01:16]
asciilifeform	363741 on 0.8	[01:16]
mircea_popescu	note the orphaned is 8 blocks long	[01:16]
mircea_popescu	the "lonmger chain" 6.	[01:16]
mircea_popescu	sorry, i mean 6 and 5.	[01:16]
mircea_popescu	anbd how teh fuck does it continue on an orphan block anyway	[01:17]
ben_vulpes	"However, this also means they're not checking the new BIP66 rule, and are now mining invalid blocks because of it. (another miner happened to create an invalid, non-BIP66 respecting block) If you're not using Bitcoin Core, you might be accepting transactions that won't be on the longest valid chain when all this is fixed." << curious to see if 0.5.whatever comes out on top at the end of this	[01:17]
ben_vulpes	my position being "if your notion of a valid block has to patch 0.5.*, get fucked."	[01:18]
asciilifeform	^	[01:18]
decimation	yeah but this apparently happened awhile ago	[01:18]
decimation	when they put the IsSuperMajority code check in	[01:18]
mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes tjhat's the only position.	[01:18]
asciilifeform	i did say, no?	[01:19]
ben_vulpes	"The majority of hashing power is mining an invalid chain - it's not going to "win" - they're just wasting their effort." << euheuheuheuheuheheehueheuheuheehu	[01:19]
mircea_popescu	"new bip66 rule" my foot.	[01:19]
asciilifeform	shitgnomatic bitcoin has been a fork since gavin turned	[01:19]
asciilifeform	and likely prior.	[01:19]
mircea_popescu	anyway.	[01:19]
ben_vulpes	simple rehash of the "let's probe network cohesion strength" fork	[01:19]
asciilifeform	a fork that hasn't sprung yet is still fok	[01:19]
mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes wait, the usg dept of stupid is now on the record that miners don't, after all, decide ?	[01:19]
asciilifeform	fork	[01:19]
mircea_popescu	can they make up their mind or something ?	[01:19]
ben_vulpes	so what, f2pool and phrenz dies next week?	[01:19]
ben_vulpes	nigga pleez	[01:19]
mircea_popescu	anyway, foundation ppl : plox to make a statement on this matter	[01:20]
ben_vulpes	"Except BIP 66 received 95% support from the relevant group (miners). " << ehuehuehehueeueueueueueeeee	[01:20]
mircea_popescu	gotta explain to the masses 1) how irresponsible it is to empower scammers, whjether they call themselves "pirate", "Gavin" or anything else	[01:20]
mircea_popescu	and 2) retty much that.	[01:20]
*	ben_vulpes sighs	[01:20]
asciilifeform	3) не шагу назад	[01:20]
asciilifeform	(tm) (r) (stalin)	[01:20]
ben_vulpes	asciilifeform: translation plox?	[01:21]
asciilifeform	'not one step back'	[01:21]
mircea_popescu	not a step bac	[01:21]
asciilifeform	the title of a 'papal bull' he signed during the war	[01:21]
mircea_popescu	BIP66 protocol rule changes have gone active in part thanks to Antpool and F2Pool's support of it - but their pool appears to not actually be enforcing the new rules, and is now mining invalid blocks << lulzy.	[01:22]
mircea_popescu	"we just sittin' here noddin'"	[01:22]
ben_vulpes	Bitcoin 0.5.3 is the canonical reference implementation. If a fork occurs and one side validates on the 0.5.3 codebase while the other does not, the chain that validates under 0.5.3 is the only valid chain.	[01:23]
mircea_popescu	Bitcoin Core (after 0.10.0) rejects these invalid blocks, but a lot of other stuff doesn't. SPV Bitcoinj wallets do no validation what-so-ever, blindly following the longest chain. blockchain.info doesn't appear to do validation as well; who knows what else? <<	[01:23]
mircea_popescu	anyway, todd is right. the only way this affects us is that we don't really give much of a shit.	[01:23]
ben_vulpes	mod6 if you feel compelled to elaborate on this, go ahead.	[01:23]
mircea_popescu	let 'em figure out how to do soft forks or w/e.	[01:23]
ben_vulpes	i have a porch of meatwot and babes that actually need attending to.	[01:23]
ben_vulpes	frantic action is for the impotent.	[01:23]
mircea_popescu	i have nfi how the power rangers imagine they'll manage a hardfork when they can't as much as get a "relevant support" softwork that's fairly uncontroversial.	[01:23]
ben_vulpes	i've not yet accepted this soft/hardfork duality.	[01:24]
asciilifeform	^	[01:24]
ben_vulpes	things either validate under 0.5.whatever or they don't.	[01:24]
mircea_popescu	well, any people can at any time decide to narrow the rules. this makes some sense.	[01:24]
decimation	they claim this is a softfork	[01:24]
mircea_popescu	hard fork is enlarging the rules.	[01:24]
mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes all thios would validate under .5	[01:24]
decimation	actually I think this is gonna be fine on 0.5	[01:25]
mircea_popescu	the idea is they don't want to see some stuff that validates anymore	[01:25]
mircea_popescu	this is no skin off my back, who cares.	[01:25]
ben_vulpes	too bad, fuck them.	[01:25]
mod6	<+ben_vulpes> Bitcoin 0.5.3 is the canonical reference implementation. If a fork occurs and one side validates on the 0.5.3 codebase while the other does not, the chain that validates under 0.5.3 is the only valid chain. << I have nothing further to add to this at this time.	[01:25]
decimation	the problem is that 0.5.3 blocks generated by 0.5.3 won't validate if those IfSuperMajority rules check	[01:25]
mircea_popescu	decimation provided their "mine support" actually materializes	[01:25]
mircea_popescu	otherwise, no.	[01:25]
decimation	well actually yes	[01:25]
decimation	because they already did a 'softfork' on the nVersion	[01:25]
decimation	I'm not sure if there are enough blocks to trigger it	[01:25]
ben_vulpes	T.I.A.S. (tm) (r) (#emacs)	[01:26]
ben_vulpes	mircea_popescu: anyone can narrow the rules, but whether that's "bitcoin" is an open question.	[01:26]
mircea_popescu	i dun see it. the rule is "come to school dressed". if you all agree to wear skirts or all agree to wear cardigans, it's still school.	[01:28]
*	ben_vulpes is also curious to see how much "political capital" the derpdation burns today	[01:28]
decimation	if (block.nVersion < 2 && IsSuperMajority(2, pindexPrev, consensusParams.nMajorityRejectBlockOutdated, consensusParams))	[01:29]
mircea_popescu	o yea. that's part's gonna be epic.	[01:29]
asciilifeform	ben_vulpes knows full well that it'll be blamed on 'wreckers'	[01:29]
ben_vulpes	primarily, me.	[01:29]
mircea_popescu	lmao right.	[01:29]
mircea_popescu	get out.	[01:29]
ben_vulpes	:P	[01:29]
ben_vulpes	i never did anything, we all know that. joke's almost too easy.	[01:30]
ben_vulpes	"Updating to the latest when what you have works is how you break things.	[01:30]
mircea_popescu	anyway, this is jit to lay kakobrekla's wonderments to rest.	[01:30]
ben_vulpes	"	[01:30]
mircea_popescu	happy pappy ?	[01:30]
ben_vulpes	"They're not running full nodes because the current 500KB blocks are too big.	[01:30]
ben_vulpes	"	[01:30]
ben_vulpes	ehueh	[01:31]
mircea_popescu	lmao	[01:31]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32404 @ 0.00051768 = 16.7749 BTC [+]	[01:31]
ben_vulpes	reddit, for all the silencing and muting of the actual bitcoin foundation, seems to be turning the corner on sense	[01:31]
mircea_popescu	this is such a goatfucked moment for teh schmucks...	[01:31]
*	Chicago has quit (Quit: Leaving)	[01:31]
ben_vulpes	"Most likely this is caused by broken-by-design-for-profit mining code, but none of their stuff is open source AFAIK. Maybe more details will be known with time."	[01:31]
ben_vulpes	<< lukejr	[01:31]
ben_vulpes	;;later tell lukejr listen you gotta stop it wiht this "i can tell miners what's right and wrong" bs	[01:32]
gribble	The operation succeeded.	[01:32]
*	gwb3 (~gwb3@unaffiliated/gwb3) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[01:32]
mircea_popescu	why ? he's a god fearing rotinculo from wisconsin or whatever.	[01:32]
mircea_popescu	on the record having lied for profit and all that good stuff, but why should anything matter.	[01:33]
ben_vulpes	man all i can do is nail this coffin closed	[01:33]
ben_vulpes	one goddamn nail at a time	[01:33]
ben_vulpes	hey kakobrekla how much can i cram into a rating field?	[01:33]
asciilifeform	wait for'em all to get in	[01:33]
asciilifeform	before nailin'.	[01:33]
*	williamdunne has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)	[01:33]
ben_vulpes	asciilifeform: nodeps!	[01:33]
ben_vulpes	i want a man in the ground, i don't make that dependent on his wife squirting or w/e	[01:34]
*	gwb3 is now known as coderwill	[01:34]
mircea_popescu	Uh oh all these block explorers just flipped over to the invalid chain:	[01:34]
mircea_popescu	http://btc.blockr.io/ <-- (seems to be flip flopping between the two chains)	[01:34]
mircea_popescu	https://blockchain.info/	[01:34]
mircea_popescu	https://live.blockcypher.com/btc/	[01:34]
mircea_popescu	Explorers on the good chain:	[01:34]
mircea_popescu	https://insight.bitpay.com/	[01:34]
mircea_popescu	https://chain.com/	[01:34]
mircea_popescu	loller	[01:34]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1RaBp8L )	[01:34]
assbot	Bitcoin Block Explorer - Blockchain.info ... ( http://bit.ly/1RaBp8O )	[01:34]
assbot	Bitcoin Block Exporer	[01:34]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1RaBoBM )	[01:34]
assbot	Bitcoin API - Chain ... ( http://bit.ly/1RaBoBO )	[01:34]
mircea_popescu	https://archive.is/fFMZr for later.	[01:35]
assbot	PSA: F2Pool is mining INVALID blocks : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1RaBqJG )	[01:35]
mircea_popescu	"Current status: F2Pool still broken; Antpool fixed (but no promise they won't intentionally re-break in the future)." is really all that one needs to lol	[01:36]
decimation	this is the dumbest fucking thing I've seen in all my years with bitcoin	[01:36]
decimation	if there's any reason why bitcoin will never be adopted, it's this kind of shit	[01:36]
ben_vulpes	"re-break"?	[01:36]
mircea_popescu	nah, the "we'll move to this new db system one schmuck that gofer'd coffee at google wrote with his chest hairs and nobody tested in any way" was the stupidest sahit	[01:37]
ben_vulpes	meaning adopt the power ranger braindamage again?	[01:37]
mircea_popescu	but the "we'll make wallet a plaintext file" and the "we'll target windows" and the "you know what's better than boost ? qt!" were pretty epic turn points too	[01:37]
ben_vulpes	shinohai: you around?	[01:37]
mod6	shinohai: is your v0.5.3.1-RELEASE node up to dayte?	[01:37]
mircea_popescu	i don't think any sane nodes can be up to date atm, until this resolves.	[01:37]
asciilifeform	i doubt anything can ever beat the 'i'll use c++, and on vs for good measure' moment	[01:38]
mircea_popescu	anyway, having been duly amused for the evening, i retire to my eulorean empire.	[01:38]
ben_vulpes	trinque: do you have a RI up-to-date?	[01:38]
trinque	errr what's up to date?	[01:38]
asciilifeform	i got one that's a few hrs away from sync	[01:38]
trinque	I have a stator build	[01:38]
mod6	the hope was to find if he can verify if v0.5.3.1 rejected or accepted the blocks in question; 363738	[01:38]
ben_vulpes	synced	[01:39]
trinque	ah no sir	[01:39]
trinque	just deleted muh blockchain to resync	[01:39]
mod6	mine is currently sync'ing against mp's seed.	[01:39]
ben_vulpes	plz foar not to buhlete!	[01:39]
trinque	I have others	[01:39]
ben_vulpes	cp ~/.bitcoin.bak/	[01:39]
trinque	this laptop has not infinite gigs	[01:39]
ben_vulpes	ah mhm.	[01:40]
ben_vulpes	how's btcd handling r4gn4phr0k?	[01:40]
trinque	the who and the whatnow?	[01:41]
trinque	was syncing pretty quick, but I stopped and deleted for to be syncing against mircea_popescu's node	[01:41]
trinque	got to like 150k I think before I stopped	[01:42]
ben_vulpes	no no the conformal impl	[01:42]
ben_vulpes	i thought you were running a conformal impl somewhere	[01:42]
trinque	I am, how is it handling what though	[01:42]
trinque	you got too 1337 on me	[01:42]
ben_vulpes	there's a ph0rk in progress	[01:42]
trinque	oh!	[01:42]
trinque	lemme see muh logz	[01:42]
ben_vulpes	check ur lawgz bru	[01:42]
trinque	yeh just got home	[01:43]
ben_vulpes	i'm nominally on vaycay but...panzer	[01:43]
trinque	REORGANIZE	[01:43]
trinque	quite a bit of that.	[01:43]
ben_vulpes	euhue	[01:43]
trinque	EXTEND FORK	[01:43]
*	ben_vulpes has never seen a reorg happen live	[01:43]
trinque	would the logs be interesting in any way?	[01:43]
trinque	can paste	[01:43]
mod6	sure, dpaste 'em up for maxtime	[01:44]
trinque	kk	[01:44]
ben_vulpes	foar posterity and posteriors	[01:44]
*	DanyAlos has quit (Quit: Leaving)	[01:44]
asciilifeform	gavin alert out	[01:45]
ben_vulpes	ugh man i kinda hate this	[01:45]
ben_vulpes	"the chain that is the real chain is the chain that verifies under 0.5.3"	[01:45]
ben_vulpes	this is almost as bad as defining a word with the word to be defined	[01:45]
asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: we're doing war, not mathematics	[01:45]
asciilifeform	enemy is defined by pointing 'that one'	[01:46]
asciilifeform	'the fella shooting our way'	[01:46]
trinque	man chrome sucks at big pastes	[01:48]
ben_vulpes	trinque: host it y'self.	[01:48]
decimation	'you may not be interested in a fork, but...'	[01:49]
ben_vulpes	mircea_popescu, mod6, asciilifeform: i don't see a reason to make this much more than 25 words. do you think much detail or polemic is necessary here?	[01:49]
asciilifeform	25 oughta do	[01:50]
asciilifeform	'who comes to us with a fork, shall die by the fork'	[01:50]
decimation	better to say less until we know wtf is going on	[01:50]
ben_vulpes	http://dpaste.com/02M3YRK.txt	[01:50]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1eqM1hS )	[01:50]
*	mod6 looks	[01:51]
ben_vulpes	perhaps a hash of the codebase instead of the semver crap?	[01:51]
*	ben_vulpes is somewhat at sea w/r/t propaganda semantics	[01:51]
decimation	I would say that on its face, bip66 isn't such a terrible idea	[01:51]
decimation	but the way it's being forced is pretty stupid	[01:52]
trinque	http://dpaste.com/2KR17VF.txt << btcd log of 2015/07/03 fork	[01:52]
asciilifeform	if gavinists bring cure for cancer - it is bad idea.	[01:52]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1eqM7Gq )	[01:52]
asciilifeform	this is an absolute.	[01:52]
*	coderwill has quit (Quit: leaving)	[01:52]
mod6	s/must be considered/is a/ ?	[01:52]
decimation	yeah, it's not the bip66 issue, it's the mechanism they inserted for forcing change	[01:52]
mod6	er /is an/	[01:52]
ben_vulpes	mod6: myeah entirely.	[01:52]
*	gwb3 (~gwb3@unaffiliated/gwb3) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[01:52]
asciilifeform	'bip66' is a grappling hook, yes	[01:53]
ben_vulpes	well this signature issue is tricky as shit already - openssl is already blowing up validating the chain with anything other than...	[01:53]
ben_vulpes	what was the version number of openssl we determined necessary to validate the full chain?	[01:53]
mod6	1.0.1g	[01:53]
ben_vulpes	ty, 1.0.1g	[01:53]
mod6	otherwise we had issues on 168`001 iirc	[01:53]
*	mod6 doublechecks the SoBAs	[01:54]
asciilifeform	stator built on 1.0.1g.	[01:54]
asciilifeform	for this reason.	[01:54]
decimation	'please sir, accept my resonable patch in exchange for agreeing to forever accept what 'our mechanism' brings'	[01:54]
*	gwb3 is now known as coderwill	[01:54]
asciilifeform	this is why shitgnomes are to be written out of the script permanently and unconditionally	[01:54]
decimation	although as I've noted, they already incremented this machine	[01:54]
mod6	yeah here: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-March/000055.html	[01:54]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1RaCpJW )	[01:54]
asciilifeform	regardless of what they bring, or claim to bring, or promise to bring, to the table	[01:55]
asciilifeform	political, rather than technical decision	[01:55]
asciilifeform	(for as long as it carries under 'technical', the weasels can whine, wheedle, emit 'reasonable reasonings', even persuade the persuadable)	[01:55]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8100 @ 0.00052134 = 4.2229 BTC [+]	[01:55]
asciilifeform	political - and absolute. like blade of guillotine.	[01:55]
decimation	asciilifeform: I can already hear jwz saying that he doesn't want politics, just to do the right thing	[01:56]
ben_vulpes	mod6, asciilifeform, mircea_popescu: http://dpaste.com/367HMKF.txt	[01:56]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1RaCwFj )	[01:56]
ben_vulpes	must be considered-> is an	[01:56]
mod6	nice	[01:56]
*	assbot gives voice to coderwill	[01:56]
ben_vulpes	an informal signoff from y'bosses would be nice before i deposit this in the white porcelain turdotron	[01:57]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33230 @ 0.0005207 = 17.3029 BTC [-] {2}	[01:57]
*	ben_vulpes was looking through recent "bitcoin-core" pull requests, found many integration testing scripts	[01:58]
ben_vulpes	looks like the shitgnomes have been working overtime to address my complaints.	[01:58]
*	ben_vulpes is amused, but not honored. if ye'd only had actual management once upon a time, this'd not be a notable achievement.	[01:58]
ben_vulpes	;;later tell gavinandresen ^^	[01:59]
gribble	The operation succeeded.	[01:59]
decimation	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-01-2015#985338 < I think this is what he was talking about (nVersion)	[01:59]
assbot	Logged on 21-01-2015 02:48:11; Luke-Jr: it can't, if you don't have the 0.8.1 hardfork patched in..	[01:59]
decimation	err, no that was the bdb lock thing	[01:59]
mod6	ok mp says he can see signing that statement ben_vulpes. go ahead, he'll even sign later when he gets on his other box.	[02:00]
mod6	fire at will.	[02:00]
ben_vulpes	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-01-2015#985356 << this still hurts, every time i see it	[02:01]
assbot	Logged on 21-01-2015 02:59:30; mod6: it was selected because "reasons"	[02:01]
asciilifeform	'...let the motherfucker burn'	[02:01]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33267 @ 0.00052134 = 17.3434 BTC [+]	[02:01]
mod6	<+ben_vulpes> << this still hurts, every time i see it << awe!	[02:02]
*	sergiohlb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)	[02:03]
ben_vulpes	ah fml	[02:04]
mod6	whatup?	[02:05]
ben_vulpes	deedbot wru	[02:05]
ben_vulpes	trinque: whar deedbot	[02:05]
decimation	where did this consensus shit enter into the code base?	[02:06]
mod6	anyway, you think i should have just called him out instead of saying "reasons"?	[02:06]
mod6	or what hurts?	[02:06]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 84850 @ 0.00052155 = 44.2535 BTC [+] {2}	[02:07]
ben_vulpes	"reasons" being that i wrote a blog post saying "i don't think much happened after this"	[02:07]
ben_vulpes	http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-July/000114.html << ahaha fattest fingers.	[02:07]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1RaCYUe )	[02:07]
mod6	ah...	[02:08]
mod6	yeah, i should have just pointed him to your blog.	[02:08]
mod6	my bad.	[02:09]
mod6	lol	[02:09]
ben_vulpes	those hafta be the 2 derpiest typos of my life.	[02:09]
ben_vulpes	anyways	[02:09]
trinque	awaken.	[02:14]
*	deedbot- (~deedbot-@ec2-54-68-114-104.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[02:14]
*	assbot gives voice to deedbot-	[02:15]
trinque	ben_vulpes: ^	[02:15]
trinque	ben_vulpes: guess what else I'll be rewriting in cl at some point.	[02:15]
trinque	the golang part gets into some dumb state where it wont reconnect.	[02:16]
mod6	deedbot-: http://dpaste.com/1P0JEFS.txt	[02:17]
deedbot-	accepted: 1	[02:17]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1eqOLMh )	[02:17]
decimation	at any rate this whole rejection machine can be permanantly jammed by setting nversion to MAX_INT	[02:17]
ben_vulpes	deedbot-: http://cascadianhacker.com/ph0rk.txt	[02:20]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1eqP2yI )	[02:20]
deedbot-	accepted: 1	[02:20]
*	ColinT2 (~ColinT@69-11-97-130.regn.static.sasknet.sk.ca) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[02:24]
decimation	I'm fairly certain that if 0.5.3.1 were used to mine a block with nVerion=1 it would be rejected	[02:24]
decimation	as more than 950 blocks have passed since the first instance of the IsSuperMajority machine being used	[02:25]
mod6	thanks ben_vulpes	[02:26]
*	Duffer1 has quit (Quit: later)	[02:26]
mod6	i put it out there on derp-media too	[02:26]
*	ColinT has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)	[02:27]
decimation	I would also note that the bitcoind github commits and comments lie about the IsSuperMajority machine. They say that the mandatory rejection won't take effect until 95% of the blocks are incremented - but in fact it's only 950	[02:30]
decimation	950 out of the last 1000 blocks	[02:32]
decimation	hardly 'consensus' in view of the 363000 block history of bitcoin	[02:33]
decimation	which amounts to one week of 'voting window'	[02:36]
decimation	one week out of years of doing things a certain way	[02:36]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16414 @ 0.0005214 = 8.5583 BTC [-] {2}	[02:42]
decimation	at any rate this mechanism dates back to 2012 https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1525 and https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1526	[02:46]
assbot	Use CTransaction/CBlock version numbers for smoother upgrades by gavinandresen · Pull Request #1525 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1LNKrVq )	[02:46]
assbot	Transition to requiring block height in block coinbases by gavinandresen · Pull Request #1526 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1LNKrVs )	[02:46]
decimation	which would have been released in 0.7rc1 roughly	[02:49]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51000 @ 0.0005145 = 26.2395 BTC [-] {3}	[02:52]
midnightmagic	decimation: 1000 blocks is a couple percent of all work done ever on the entire blockchain since inception, and the current hashrate could rewrite the entire history up to something like august 2014 in somewhere close to the span of time that non-vote took place over, times a very small number. :( unfortunately.	[02:53]
ben_vulpes	oh look	[02:54]
decimation	this machine is braindamaged in my opinion	[02:54]
ben_vulpes	a midnightmagic	[02:54]
decimation	at any rate, it's not like you couldn't jam it by changing nversion to an arbitrary value	[02:54]
ben_vulpes	decimation: srsly.	[02:54]
ben_vulpes	magic numbers and magic thinking.	[02:54]
decimation	to spite, you could even pick a value between 4 and MAX_INT randomly	[02:54]
ben_vulpes	another value for derpfiguration.	[02:54]
ben_vulpes	euhue	[02:55]
midnightmagic	i'm just saying that it sounds like a little bit in comparison to both time, and integerial block height, but actual work-wise it a significant chunk. again, very unfortunately.	[02:55]
phf	ha, stator build on openbsd i386	[02:55]
ben_vulpes	midnightmagic: this is a basic feature of integrals and curves.	[02:55]
ben_vulpes	lol 'integerial'	[02:56]
decimation	midnightmagic: the "amount of work" argument utterly fails to impress	[02:56]
decimation	also, it's probably not going to be true in a year or two as 14 nm asics fan out and become barely economic	[02:57]
midnightmagic	that is the inverse of what will happen as more-efficient mining equipment arrives.	[02:58]
decimation	also, your argument would also be true if nMajorityWindow=10000 or 100000	[02:58]
ben_vulpes	decimation is ready to bet against diff increases?	[03:00]
decimation	I think it's likely to level out in the coming year or two, maybe longer	[03:00]
ben_vulpes	midnightmagic is ready to work more student exercises?	[03:00]
decimation	unless someone can tell me exactly how they are going to 'get efficient'	[03:00]
ben_vulpes	efficiency is not a prerequisite for fab runs.	[03:01]
decimation	no, but it is for profitability in the face of non-zero electric rates	[03:01]
ben_vulpes	since when has midnightmagic's employer given a shit about profitability?	[03:01]
midnightmagic	ben_vulpes: #trollfail. That sort of thing doesn't work on me, especially when it comes from someone like you.	[03:02]
ben_vulpes	lol and yet you bit	[03:02]
midnightmagic	ben_vulpes: You would call a bite any response. That is the fundamental nature of #trollfail.	[03:03]
ben_vulpes	y'ever hear the line: "don't feed the trolls"?	[03:04]
midnightmagic	Regardless, a 1000-block window is not unreasonable if one accepts that mining hashpower is the vote that counts.	[03:04]
decimation	I don't accept it.	[03:04]
decimation	nor does this argument hold for 1000, because the same argument can be made for 50000	[03:04]
ben_vulpes	i don't accept it either.	[03:05]
ben_vulpes	midnightmagic: you make this mistake of letting the plants control the conversation. "what's the right magic number of blocks to signal fork acceptance?" answer: there isn't. there is only the long-term behavior of the network.	[03:05]
midnightmagic	Correct. I am saying your complaint about it being unreasonable is illogical by any measure of the mining work done: there is no other meaningful window, or measurement, of the bitcoin network without shifting to PoS or DPoS. But if you want to do that, fork bitshares.	[03:06]
ben_vulpes	this moronic 'acceptance-in-blockchain' algo doesn't work, because hashpower can revert and rewrite an arbitrarily-lengthed blockchain.	[03:06]
midnightmagic	ben_vulpes: On that at least, we agree. I agree with that: the current hashrate is as illegitimate as a vote of private keys would be in determining a softfork. What else is there?	[03:07]
ben_vulpes	's just no window.	[03:07]
ben_vulpes	there's* just no window.	[03:07]
ben_vulpes	just the network. that, only that, no more, no less.	[03:08]
midnightmagic	Thus, backing up further, there is the legitimacy of BIP66 at all. If it is not legitimate, we have a consensus code failure every time openssl decides they want to change behaviour.	[03:08]
ben_vulpes	midnightmagic: art thou familiar with the 1.0.1g issue?	[03:08]
decimation	you are subjugating human judgement to unthinking machinery - this can never be reasonable	[03:09]
ben_vulpes	openssl changed behavior. bitcoin did not.	[03:09]
decimation	midnightmagic: who is holding a gun to your head, requiring you to update openssl?	[03:10]
midnightmagic	I'm familiar with the DER-encoding change they made, and I'm aware of, if not familiar with, every major bug in openssl since 2001 or so. Could I draw a line between releases that had bugs and releases that fixed them? No. Not even close.	[03:10]
decimation	why isn't anyone seriously attempting to extract the open-ssl code paths used by bitcoin?	[03:11]
ben_vulpes	bitcoind's built with openssl versions after 1.0.1g don't sync.	[03:11]
ben_vulpes	this, i gather, is news to you.	[03:11]
ben_vulpes	bitcoinds*	[03:11]
midnightmagic	decimation: Nobody, of course. Then we go back to static builds and what happens when an actual bug hits and the fork is so old that the fix doesn't backport? How divergent are we willing to accept?	[03:11]
midnightmagic	lol. No, it's not news to me. Yes, I already knew that.	[03:11]
decimation	midnightmagic: the cure to that problem is not forcing changes of an uncertain nature, but to gain certainty in the codebase	[03:12]
decimation	why wouldn't we want a static bitcoind that is correct for all time?	[03:13]
ben_vulpes	midnightmagic: you were probably just on the cusp of killing hitler too.	[03:13]
ben_vulpes	why wouldn't we want a static bitcoind that is correct for all time? << we do. midnightmagic does not.	[03:15]
midnightmagic	well, then we have the forking risk I mentioned above: what happens when the openssl people make a fix or the internet finds a bug in the component that we depend on? If we sit on 0.9.8 or whatever the version was before those idiots got their hands on it and started adding malicious exploits, what happens?	[03:15]
decimation	understand the code, make sure it doesn't happen	[03:15]
decimation	pretending like others are there to solve your problems seems like a poor approach	[03:15]
midnightmagic	ben_vulpes: You can keep guessing what I mean without actually asking me, but you're no less wrong.	[03:16]
ben_vulpes	decimation: no but you see we need to slurp the spitoon because if we don't something terrifying that we can't reason about won't happen!	[03:16]
ben_vulpes	midnightmagic: no less wrong than what now?	[03:17]
midnightmagic	I'm not pretending that; I'm explicitly saying, divergence implies there is no reason to even use openssl at that point. strip out the components, use them, skip openssl entirely, and, I guess, trust in your ability to monitor the progenitor of your codebase for bugs that explicitly affect your consensus-critical code.	[03:17]
decimation	agreed, except "consenus-critical" means "compatible with what satoshi wrote" in my book	[03:18]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 159666 @ 0.00052679 = 84.1105 BTC [+] {5}	[03:18]
midnightmagic	or, do what sipa did and write a secp256k1 lib because the openssl people don't give a shit they're wrecking dependencies.	[03:18]
midnightmagic	because, like I said, I think some people in there appear to be adding exploitable code with absurd frequency.	[03:18]
decimation	again, nobody is forcing anybody use a version of openssl they don't want to use.	[03:18]
midnightmagic	ehh. satoshi's code, bugs and all. we could also stick with bdb and accept the quirks like the old accidental fork post-leveldb.	[03:20]
midnightmagic	.. which appears to have been a gavin/hearn originated bug.	[03:20]
ben_vulpes	it's all well and good to say "strip out the components", i just don't buy that that's possible.	[03:20]
decimation	his code sucks, I don't deny, but it's the closest thing to a spec that we have	[03:21]
decimation	start there and iterate the code toward perfection	[03:21]
decimation	ideally, writing a damn spec first	[03:21]
midnightmagic	it's all a question of how much you trust your ability to make code that converges on consensus. are you so awesome you can either sit on an old openssl, or write your own replacements? are you so godlike you can write testcases for every corner-case, bugs and all? I know I'm not. Maybe you guys are. I dunno.	[03:22]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 69387 @ 0.00053112 = 36.8528 BTC [+] {2}	[03:23]
midnightmagic	Say, why did you guys stop openly calling out Gavin and Hearn anyway?	[03:23]
decimation	gavin is mentioned on here from time to time	[03:24]
midnightmagic	Once everyone else started, you stopped. How come?	[03:24]
decimation	!s usgavin	[03:24]
assbot	43 results for 'usgavin' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=usgavin	[03:24]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 126663 @ 0.00053379 = 67.6114 BTC [+] {5}	[03:24]
midnightmagic	Yeah, I mean aside from the grumbling in here which nobody but people in here seems to read.	[03:24]
midnightmagic	For a while you were writing reddit posts and qntra articles and all sorts of stuff. Half the time you got Gavin himself "derping" as you put it, in your comments.	[03:24]
decimation	well, it wasn't me doing any of this stuff	[03:25]
midnightmagic	Or coming in here and randomly arguing with you.	[03:25]
decimation	he did a few times, rather unimpressively	[03:25]
ben_vulpes	Yeah, I mean aside from the grumbling in here which nobody but people in here seems to read. << how could you possible know	[03:26]
ben_vulpes	possibly*	[03:26]
ben_vulpes	Once everyone else started, you stopped. How come? << hipsters always move on, boss	[03:27]
midnightmagic	Unless you are implying people outside the bitcoin world are voracious readers of the -ass logs, as far as I can tell in all the articles, reddit posts, twitter feeds, etc, I don't see more than a passing mention. But even if that weren't so, really I'm a little disappointed the wind all went out of your sails, as it were.	[03:28]
ben_vulpes	6/10 #spergytrollfail	[03:28]
decimation	I don't really read reddit or twitter, but I recall that gavin captiulated, more or less	[03:29]
midnightmagic	And here they are, going on little half-drunken joke-rants about how maybe they should just remove everyone else's commit access and unilaterally take control again.	[03:29]
decimation	who where is?	[03:30]
ben_vulpes	midnightmagic: reddit? twitter? d'you want to roll medium and perhaps bitcointalk.org into that as well?	[03:30]
midnightmagic	You guys heads were exploding in here, and then when "the rest" of the bitcoin-core devs took up the flag you all went quiet again. wtf?	[03:30]
ben_vulpes	for a grand coup of shit-as-what-don't-matter?	[03:30]
ben_vulpes	so we won, and you want to 3/10 troll on the topic?	[03:31]
midnightmagic	I presumed your head would explode if I mentioned forbes (due to its primary bitcoin author being a douchebag), or mainstream media.	[03:31]
midnightmagic	He didn't capitulate.	[03:32]
ben_vulpes	derpboom	[03:32]
trinque	gcovr outputs a nice html version of the gcov output	[03:32]
trinque	gonna let this run for a while, then I'll share the results	[03:32]
midnightmagic	What? He's pushing his BIP and pullreq, and Hearn is busy doing pullreqs which he knows doesn't have a chance of making it.	[03:32]
decimation	if bitcoin core devs agree with what people here are writing, why don't they venture here to make their case?	[03:33]
midnightmagic	.. why would they do that?	[03:33]
ben_vulpes	moreover, if the decisions made here trickle down to "bitcoin core", why should we pursue them further?	[03:33]
decimation	umm, why would we give a shit about what they are saying otherwise? I donno bro, you're the one accusing here.	[03:34]
midnightmagic	Besides, you went quiet well before he "capitulated".	[03:34]
ben_vulpes	why bang on about points that are already settled?	[03:35]
midnightmagic	I guess that answers my question.	[03:35]
midnightmagic	fair enough.	[03:35]
decimation	all I can say, for myself, is that folks write stuff on this channel, I would read; comment - as would others	[03:35]
midnightmagic	I grok.	[03:36]
decimation	with respect to bip 66 in particular, it's not a terrible idea, but it strikes me as backwards	[03:37]
ben_vulpes	midnightmagic: re #trollfail it's supposed to be lighthearted elbows-in-ribs	[03:37]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36350 @ 0.00053547 = 19.4643 BTC [+] {2}	[03:37]
decimation	why not solidify the questionable openssl code first, before lightly restricting certain signature forms?	[03:37]
midnightmagic	ben_vulpes: Dude man, with the shit you guys say in here, I have no idea when you're ribbing someone, or promising a spear in the gut. :(	[03:37]
ben_vulpes	you're not in line for a stake	[03:38]
ben_vulpes	yet	[03:38]
ben_vulpes	:P	[03:38]
midnightmagic	lol	[03:38]
decimation	at least you show up, comment	[03:39]
ben_vulpes	myeah	[03:39]
ben_vulpes	conflict is productive!	[03:39]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 64050 @ 0.00053567 = 34.3097 BTC [+] {2}	[03:39]
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ben_vulpes	anyways, chickens run around with their heads cut off for minutes. what of it? they still lost to the butcher.	[03:40]
ben_vulpes	ben_vulpes: Dude man, with the shit you guys say in here, I have no idea when you're ribbing someone, or promising a spear in the gut. :( << the ambiguity has to be completely intolerable	[03:41]
midnightmagic	Maybe my appraisal is just wrong. Could be. Seems to me they're just taking a breather to set up the schism.	[03:41]
decimation	'they' being gavin et al?	[03:42]
midnightmagic	Yeah, Gavin/Hearn.	[03:42]
midnightmagic	The Satoshi-Halo-Wearers.	[03:42]
decimation	yes. ultimately this is war, and we have a strategy	[03:42]
thestringpuller	oh did i come back for drama?	[03:42]
ben_vulpes	nah we seem to have defused the antagonism for now	[03:43]
midnightmagic	thestringpuller: not at all, I mainly wanted to know why you all were being so quiet lately. :-P	[03:43]
ben_vulpes	quiet!?	[03:45]
ben_vulpes	dumpblock, eatblock, exposure of the ancient blockchain is quiet now?	[03:45]
ben_vulpes	i thought you said you were reading logs!?	[03:46]
decimation	midnightmagic: yeah actually we are mostly focusing on building a working, sane bitcoind	[03:46]
thestringpuller	midnightmagic: cause I fucked up my shoulder being on the computer all day at work so I read comic books instead after work.	[03:46]
midnightmagic	Yes, I saw all that. I mean outwardly quiet.	[03:46]
decimation	I think there's a general ambivalence about what bitcoin-devs want or do	[03:47]
thestringpuller	midnightmagic: there really isn't news. just gavin/hearn having a temper tantrum like a little kid because they want more subsidies for poor people.	[03:47]
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thestringpuller	midnightmagic: also mircea_popescu 's series on the subject (http://trilema.com/2015/lets-address-some-of-the-more-common-pseudo-arguments-raised-by-the-very-stupid-people-that-like-the-gavin-scamcoin-proposal/) outlines and details the idiocy of every redditard comment that was, is, and will be on the subject	[03:49]
decimation	at any rate, I'm going to sleep, I'm sure others will comment tomorrow on this discussion.	[03:50]
ben_vulpes	midnightmagic: that's some wack ass disingenuous shit. you jumped in on the n block consensus line.	[03:52]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10788 @ 0.00053569 = 5.779 BTC [+]	[03:58]
midnightmagic	Just trying to be polite.	[03:59]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 115612 @ 0.00053634 = 62.0073 BTC [+] {3}	[03:59]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1186287 << co2. still the best solution in any perspective.	[04:06]
assbot	Logged on 04-07-2015 01:14:46; asciilifeform: (virgin tears? vodka ?)	[04:06]
trinque	asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: mod6: http://bot.deedbot.org/stator-gcov/ << here's what my gcov run looks like so far. 135k	[04:08]
assbot	Head ... ( http://bit.ly/1NFAlEp )	[04:08]
trinque	nice way to read the source	[04:09]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1186321 << gotta ask whoever runs that site.	[04:09]
assbot	Logged on 04-07-2015 02:07:07; DanyAlos: I was looking for #bitcoin-assets on this search engine (http://irc.netsplit.de/channels), and realized that it is not listed. Is there any particular reason for not being there?	[04:09]
mircea_popescu	currently the cannonical b-a log service is http://log.bitcoin-assets.com	[04:09]
assbot	#bitcoin-assets log ... ( http://bit.ly/1NFAqb1 )	[04:09]
mircea_popescu	(an important point about co2 extinguishers is that they also cool when deployed. this effect is significant. heavier gases - not so much)	[04:10]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1186358 << also touched upon in here a few times. definitely the right way to do this.	[04:11]
assbot	Logged on 04-07-2015 02:46:46; asciilifeform: what i think would be considerably more useful is a provision for 'programmable checkpoints'	[04:11]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1186389 << for a long time in 2012/2013 there were "gencoin only" miners, at the peak doing like 15% ish of total hashing	[04:13]
mircea_popescu	no txn included.	[04:13]
assbot	Logged on 04-07-2015 03:04:15; asciilifeform: but it would stand to reason that miners will eventually exert more tx fee pressure	[04:13]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 60112 @ 0.00053707 = 32.2844 BTC [+] {2}	[04:16]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21038 @ 0.00053837 = 11.3262 BTC [+]	[04:17]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1186697 << i dun think it does anything useful ; on the other hand it doesn't do anything whatsoever that wasn't either already done, or as good as already done. but whatever, let the flies buzzing in front of the truck get their fly trophies for opening the road to trucks.	[04:19]
assbot	Logged on 04-07-2015 04:47:46; decimation: I would say that on its face, bip66 isn't such a terrible idea	[04:19]
mircea_popescu	nevertheless, being critted for > 9k ironies over something like this is beyond comedic.	[04:19]
mircea_popescu	fitting for the empire of stupid, but still.	[04:20]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1186699 << seems it handled it gracefully.	[04:21]
assbot	Logged on 04-07-2015 04:47:58; trinque: http://dpaste.com/2KR17VF.txt << btcd log of 2015/07/03 fork	[04:21]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1186723 << it has historically proven to have been a massive mistake, perhaps the largest mistake on record, that people in the early f/oss made to argue on supposed technical merits and play-pretend the "impartial scientists".	[04:22]
assbot	Logged on 04-07-2015 04:51:34; asciilifeform: (for as long as it carries under 'technical', the weasels can whine, wheedle, emit 'reasonable reasonings', even persuade the persuadable)	[04:22]
mircea_popescu	i believe the lesson was learned.	[04:22]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1186772 << and watch the PR implementation crash and burn over division by negative zero and things.	[04:24]
assbot	Logged on 04-07-2015 05:13:46; decimation: at any rate this whole rejection machine can be permanantly jammed by setting nversion to MAX_INT	[04:24]
mircea_popescu	but at any rate : setting the "nversion" to maxint has at least the important symbolic significance of saying "this is the last version".	[04:25]
mircea_popescu	which may be a valuable thing.	[04:25]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1186780 << this is true, but broadly uninteresting.	[04:26]
assbot	Logged on 04-07-2015 05:26:45; decimation: I would also note that the bitcoind github commits and comments lie about the IsSuperMajority machine. They say that the mandatory rejection won't take effect until 95% of the blocks are incremented - but in fact it's only 950	[04:26]
mircea_popescu	i mean, other than painting the picture of the vermin in unflattering tones, which it does. in the field it can do precisely jack.	[04:27]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1186807 << more efficient mining equipment is not really happening past this point.	[04:28]
assbot	Logged on 04-07-2015 05:54:09; midnightmagic: that is the inverse of what will happen as more-efficient mining equipment arrives.	[04:28]
mircea_popescu	certainly nothing like we've seen to date.	[04:28]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1186836 << this is actually quite true.	[04:30]
assbot	Logged on 04-07-2015 06:06:14; midnightmagic: I'm familiar with the DER-encoding change they made, and I'm aware of, if not familiar with, every major bug in openssl since 2001 or so. Could I draw a line between releases that had bugs and releases that fixed them? No. Not even close.	[04:30]
mircea_popescu	pure spaghetti mess, wherein no soul can tell where the pasta ends and the cook's hairs begin	[04:31]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1186837 << for the same reason no one's attempting any other flavour of serious works anywhere in the decaying west, on any topic, for any reason. too busy posturing in front of things.	[04:31]
assbot	Logged on 04-07-2015 06:06:56; decimation: why isn't anyone seriously attempting to extract the open-ssl code paths used by bitcoin?	[04:31]
mircea_popescu	an exquisitely african thing this, as late as 2000 one could notice that all the egyptians seem willing to do is stand in front of the pyramids with their chests pushed out, or else gesturing importantly. meanwhile... the people who built those things don't look anything like the arab mongrels currently populating the place, if extant statues are to be believed.	[04:32]
mircea_popescu	similarly is the case of "americans".	[04:32]
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mircea_popescu	whose great-grand parents noticed, while taking the upper-middle class mandatory "tour of europe", that the italians similarly etc etc.	[04:33]
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mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1186847 << while this problem exists, i think the case that it is strictly preferable to attempt building a functional system than to bemoan one's fate of having been born to parents this poor, stupid and useless needs not be further pressed.	[04:35]
assbot	Logged on 04-07-2015 06:11:21; midnightmagic: well, then we have the forking risk I mentioned above: what happens when the openssl people make a fix or the internet finds a bug in the component that we depend on? If we sit on 0.9.8 or whatever the version was before those idiots got their hands on it and started adding malicious exploits, what happens?	[04:35]
midnightmagic	Almost like a sort of mass-ennui/retirement mentality. Tired of working for something they don't believe in anymore.	[04:36]
mircea_popescu	it is in point of fact better to have a static build that specifically ennumerates blocks prior to height X and then proceeds from there, than to have the present situation.	[04:36]
mircea_popescu	and that's 40 gb's worth of magic number.	[04:37]
midnightmagic	I meant to suggest that the amount of effort of doing it oneself compared with the projected risk of it happening while someone else is working on it.. which option is less expensive/reliable?	[04:37]
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midnightmagic	And sipa, it seems, agrees with you, hence the existence of libsecpblah	[04:37]
mircea_popescu	you familiar with my observation re alf's "folk with brains are useless - they want to use the brains" that in terms of "optimal impact", you're always better off waiting ?	[04:37]
midnightmagic	No, but I do know for a fact that procrastination has saved my life at least six or seven times. :)	[04:38]
mircea_popescu	this is not actually a rational reason to wait.	[04:38]
mircea_popescu	sure, so it has. mine too.	[04:38]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1186854 << it's a complex mess. satoshi generally wrote stuff that didn't actually work for the intended purpose. it is very far from inconceivable we shall in a year discover a fundamental bug in any of a dozen dozens different essential components.	[04:42]
assbot	Logged on 04-07-2015 06:13:58; decimation: agreed, except "consenus-critical" means "compatible with what satoshi wrote" in my book	[04:42]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1186857 << not just there. which is why the entire signed patches business.	[04:43]
assbot	Logged on 04-07-2015 06:14:44; midnightmagic: because, like I said, I think some people in there appear to be adding exploitable code with absurd frequency.	[04:43]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1186865 << time will definitely tell.	[04:45]
assbot	Logged on 04-07-2015 06:18:37; midnightmagic: it's all a question of how much you trust your ability to make code that converges on consensus. are you so awesome you can either sit on an old openssl, or write your own replacements? are you so godlike you can write testcases for every corner-case, bugs and all? I know I'm not. Maybe you guys are. I dunno.	[04:45]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1186869 << this is where policy is set, not followed.	[04:45]
assbot	Logged on 04-07-2015 06:19:59; midnightmagic: Once everyone else started, you stopped. How come?	[04:45]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1186881 lmao "hey guise, everyone is now playing to your tune, what do you mean everyone's playing to your tune ?!?!?! so sad to see wind out of your sails as everyone's playing to your tune!!!"	[04:46]
assbot	Logged on 04-07-2015 06:24:27; midnightmagic: Unless you are implying people outside the bitcoin world are voracious readers of the -ass logs, as far as I can tell in all the articles, reddit posts, twitter feeds, etc, I don't see more than a passing mention. But even if that weren't so, really I'm a little disappointed the wind all went out of your sails, as it were.	[04:46]
mircea_popescu	what are you, on vitamins ?	[04:46]
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mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1186909 << have you looked into that thing, god help you ?	[04:48]
assbot	Logged on 04-07-2015 06:33:28; decimation: why not solidify the questionable openssl code first, before lightly restricting certain signature forms?	[04:48]
mircea_popescu	it's a complete re-write. ask anyone.	[04:49]
midnightmagic	:-P No, just wondering why you think anyone else is more capable than you are at ensuring a value-destroying fork doesn't happen.	[04:50]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1186924 << hearn was never included in that.	[04:50]
assbot	Logged on 04-07-2015 06:38:25; midnightmagic: The Satoshi-Halo-Wearers.	[04:50]
midnightmagic	He is while he's riding around on Gavin's back. The Halo's right there above him.	[04:51]
mircea_popescu	i think what ? how is this even a problem ?	[04:51]
mircea_popescu	in this sense the halo's about as stretched as gavin's mother.	[04:51]
midnightmagic	You "set the policy" and then stopped.	[04:51]
mircea_popescu	stopped what ?	[04:51]
midnightmagic	Externally combating a blocksize increase with articles, comments, and discussion external to -ass.	[04:52]
mircea_popescu	why ? point's well made, everyone's happy to be part of bitcoin by standing on borrowed intelligence. let them.	[04:53]
mircea_popescu	next time they'll need some they... ahem... won't read b-a logs etc once more.	[04:53]
midnightmagic	Because they haven't stopped yet. Hearn's submitting pullreqs he's going to use as propaganda to push people to -XT, and Gavin's going through the bip/pullreq motions when he knows he's going to be voted down. Again.	[04:54]
mircea_popescu	so ?	[04:54]
mircea_popescu	and lawsky's going around trying to scam people like a resurected antonopopo derpopopop.	[04:54]
midnightmagic	"Miners, merchants, and exchanges," all agree with him. Supposedly.	[04:55]
mircea_popescu	any idea how long the list is ? even nefario is making the occasional reappearance.	[04:55]
mircea_popescu	yes yes.	[04:55]
mircea_popescu	every bum drunk has a story of greatness. go, listen. care.	[04:55]
midnightmagic	What? Nefario is back?! His huge black eyes all healed up?!	[04:55]
mircea_popescu	eh, they nibble discreetely at teh periphery.	[04:55]
midnightmagic	Lawsky.. name sounds familiar.	[04:56]
midnightmagic	oh, the litlicence guy.	[04:56]
mircea_popescu	heck, kenna and the armandi fellow are prolly due for a novel attempt too	[04:56]
mircea_popescu	the legions of hell are truely an infinite headcount. why do you care so much about some particular schmucks in the chorus ? why not that tv scammer dude while you're at it, what was his name	[04:57]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28500 @ 0.00052491 = 14.9599 BTC [-] {2}	[04:57]
mircea_popescu	keiser.	[04:57]
midnightmagic	Dude wears the Halo. The other scammers don't matter so much. And if I really cared, I'd be doing something other than flicking out belly button lint in the shower. I'm just curious to know why you guys stopped.	[04:58]
mircea_popescu	to you.	[04:58]
mircea_popescu	he only wears the halo ~to you~. because you're a particular sort of inner build, and because you ate a particular diet.	[04:58]
mircea_popescu	your experiences and inner life are not nearly as universal as you imagine before you examine it.	[04:59]
midnightmagic	No, not to me. He wears the halo that makes large audiences cheer for him instead of throwing spitballs, when he says he should revoke everyone's commit access and be a dictator.	[04:59]
mircea_popescu	to most everyone else, gavin's just another washed up website designer with a great story from five years ago.	[04:59]
mircea_popescu	sort-of like how rassah bought a car or some guy bought a pizza.	[05:00]
mircea_popescu	"dude i could have been so rich and important".	[05:00]
midnightmagic	Nobody wears a halo to me. Well. Maybe Grigori Perelman..	[05:00]
mircea_popescu	yeah, sure. no shortage.	[05:00]
mircea_popescu	"and then we came THIS CLOSE to selling out to amazon for 5 trtillion"	[05:00]
mircea_popescu	go hang out in sf, see how often this comes up.	[05:00]
mircea_popescu	anyways. my 2c.	[05:01]
midnightmagic	(but Perelman's a safe bet because he's a recluse and there's no possibility of that image ever being shattered)	[05:03]
mircea_popescu	he's still alive. never trust the living. for all you know he ends up like donald trump, doing reality shows in his 70s	[05:03]
midnightmagic	blech	[05:08]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 59300 @ 0.00051343 = 30.4464 BTC [-] {2}	[05:30]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30341 @ 0.0005312 = 16.1171 BTC [+]	[05:42]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25159 @ 0.00053427 = 13.4417 BTC [+]	[05:43]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16351 @ 0.00052446 = 8.5754 BTC [-]	[05:54]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45400 @ 0.00053618 = 24.3426 BTC [+]	[06:10]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 55800 @ 0.0005281 = 29.468 BTC [-]	[06:58]
punkman	so... did the DER chain lose the race?	[07:09]
punkman	I just started a stator patched to not skip VerifySignature, wonder if it'll work this time	[07:11]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51900 @ 0.00053626 = 27.8319 BTC [+] {2}	[07:21]
mircea_popescu	http://oglaf.com/acrophobia/ << this one rocks	[07:21]
assbot	Acrophobia ... ( http://bit.ly/1G0g322 )	[07:21]
punkman	next one was good too http://oglaf.com/rangerron/	[07:22]
assbot	Ranger Ron's Wilderness survival guide ... ( http://bit.ly/1G0gc5I )	[07:22]
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*	assbot gives voice to Jautenim	[07:25]
Jautenim	dafuq https://bitcoin.org/en/alert/2015-07-04-spv-mining	[07:25]
assbot	Some Miners Generating Invalid Blocks ... ( http://bit.ly/1RaUyaC )	[07:25]
mircea_popescu	see logs mebbe ?	[07:41]
kakobrekla	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1186613 < i dont see any difference?	[07:42]
assbot	Logged on 04-07-2015 04:30:43; mircea_popescu: Uh oh all these block explorers just flipped over to the invalid chain:	[07:42]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 55900 @ 0.00053217 = 29.7483 BTC [-]	[07:49]
*	kakobrekla caught up	[08:00]
kakobrekla	so we are stuck on v3 now.	[08:00]
shinohai	I'm at 254300 this morning, yay	[08:05]
shinohai	so http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=04-07-2015#1186636 almost there mod6	[08:06]
assbot	Logged on 04-07-2015 04:33:37; mod6: shinohai: is your v0.5.3.1-RELEASE node up to dayte?	[08:06]
mircea_popescu	http://xenbits.xen.org/xsa/advisory-135.html << at least they sign.	[08:06]
assbot	XSA-135 - Xen Security Advisories ... ( http://bit.ly/1KAf28N )	[08:06]
punkman	"We are using 10.2 but got this message anyway: "Your node software is out of date and may accept an invalid blockchain fork. Do not trust confirmation."" "There was a mistake made and an alert that showed up on v0.10.2 was sent out accidentally; should be now fixed."	[08:08]
mircea_popescu	oh a mistake ? aww.	[08:09]
punkman	petertodd's answer ^	[08:09]
punkman	lukejr: "Sorry, accident, ignore."	[08:09]
punkman	petertodd: "Honestly I was half-expecting this to happen, and was actually busy writing up a warning for SPV wallets users when this issue came up."	[08:10]
shinohai	http://redd.it/3c305f <<< whelp can't trust my 0.5.3 node /s	[08:10]
assbot	If you are using any wallet other than Bitcoin Core 0.10.x or 0.9.5 (or something backed by one of those versions), then you should not trust incoming transactions until they have ~30 confirmations. : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1G0jGVG )	[08:10]
kakobrekla	so if nothing else, cpu mining code needs to be updated in the ref implementation now or what	[08:11]
mircea_popescu	honestly i fully expect fail to "happen"	[08:11]
mircea_popescu	i thought reddit went private.	[08:11]
punkman	cpu mining code probably needs more than a couple fixes	[08:11]
kakobrekla	or does it need to work only on alpha centauri?	[08:11]
kakobrekla	or should i say only not-earth	[08:11]
mircea_popescu	check out all the miners that were mining off thin air, incidentally. because the bandwidth doubled so much.	[08:12]
kakobrekla	fees not large enough to offset the finite speed of light	[08:14]
shinohai	It appears f2p pool "almost" mined them out xD	[08:14]
mircea_popescu	quantum computing will solve this.	[08:21]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36150 @ 0.00052768 = 19.0756 BTC [-] {2}	[08:28]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37849 @ 0.00052533 = 19.8832 BTC [-] {2}	[08:40]
punkman	in other news, stator (with openssl1.0.1g) patched to not skip VerifySignature, has not barfed up to block 146k (previous attempt barfed earlier than that)	[08:52]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 143250 @ 0.00051227 = 73.3827 BTC [-] {4}	[09:04]
punkman	https://bitcointalk.org/?topic=140078 relevant to ^	[09:13]
assbot	New Bitcoin vulnerability: A transaction that takes at least 3 minutes to verify ... ( http://bit.ly/1HD6BHo )	[09:14]
cazalla	wow GG America, well and truly lost the plot now http://myfox8.com/2015/07/03/florida-teacher-who-had-sex-with-three-teens-sentenced-to-22-years-in-prison/	[09:15]
assbot	Florida teacher who had sex with three teens sentenced to 22 years in prison \| myfox8.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1HD6N9w )	[09:15]
punkman	"Two other male students, both also 17 years old, came forward as victims after Fichter was arrested." << lol assholes	[09:16]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37400 @ 0.00050978 = 19.0658 BTC [-]	[09:17]
punkman	http://myfox8.com/2015/04/10/teacher-accused-of-threesome-with-student-avoids-jail-time-posts-gleeful-pic-to-instagram/	[09:18]
assbot	Teacher, accused of threesome with student, avoids jail time; posts gleeful pic to Instagram \| myfox8.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1HD738B )	[09:18]
shinohai	22 years, srsly ?	[09:19]
cazalla	tbh at 17 i think i would've been willing to do 22 years to fuck my english teacher	[09:23]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8034 @ 0.00050978 = 4.0956 BTC [-]	[09:24]
shinohai	I always wanted to fuck my math teacher. She was smokin'	[09:24]
cazalla	now and then i've thought of the few teacher's aids that would come for a school term as part of their studies.. they were so young and pretty but would be old bags now	[09:26]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 58519 @ 0.00050549 = 29.5808 BTC [-]	[09:37]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14500 @ 0.0005057 = 7.3327 BTC [+]	[10:01]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 66800 @ 0.00050579 = 33.7868 BTC [+] {2}	[10:20]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12091 @ 0.00051471 = 6.2234 BTC [+] {2}	[11:08]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5909 @ 0.00052578 = 3.1068 BTC [+] {2}	[11:09]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25303 @ 0.00050549 = 12.7904 BTC [-]	[11:12]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11639 @ 0.00050549 = 5.8834 BTC [-] {2}	[11:14]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32411 @ 0.000505 = 16.3676 BTC [-]	[11:15]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 71600 @ 0.000505 = 36.158 BTC [-]	[11:21]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11000 @ 0.000505 = 5.555 BTC [-]	[11:27]
punkman	http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2015/07/04#l1435978998.0	[11:36]
assbot	BitcoinStats ... ( http://bit.ly/1IXhgsV )	[11:36]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 90650 @ 0.00050402 = 45.6894 BTC [-] {4}	[11:42]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 136900 @ 0.00052845 = 72.3448 BTC [+] {3}	[11:49]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 143014 @ 0.00050724 = 72.5424 BTC [-] {3}	[12:11]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2732 @ 0.00053217 = 1.4539 BTC [+]	[12:14]
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asciilifeform	363408	[12:21]
asciilifeform	my sync is almost at axe-time...	[12:21]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20250 @ 0.00053628 = 10.8597 BTC [+]	[12:23]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1186971 << aha	[12:23]
assbot	Logged on 04-07-2015 07:21:18; mircea_popescu: but at any rate : setting the "nversion" to maxint has at least the important symbolic significance of saying "this is the last version".	[12:23]
asciilifeform	and from general principle, there is no reason ~not~ to make life maximally difficult for the enemy if this costs us nothing	[12:23]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1187074 << vMAXINT !	[12:31]
assbot	Logged on 04-07-2015 10:56:06; kakobrekla: so we are stuck on v3 now.	[12:31]
asciilifeform	the buggers like to monkey with versioning? fine - let's nail their ears to their heads.	[12:31]
asciilifeform	363673... almost there	[12:33]
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asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1186991 << nah, more practically, a few dozen MB (sha512 sums)	[12:36]
assbot	Logged on 04-07-2015 07:33:02; mircea_popescu: and that's 40 gb's worth of magic number.	[12:36]
asciilifeform	... and now i'm synced with mircea_popescu.	[12:38]
shinohai	congrats, I am still about 167k or so	[12:42]
shinohai	*267k	[12:43]
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*	Now talking on #bitcoin-assets	[17:04]
*	Topic for #bitcoin-assets is: http://bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://log.bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://bash.bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://blogs.bitcoin-assets.com	[17:04]
*	Topic for #bitcoin-assets set by kakobrekla!~kako@unaffiliated/kakobrekla at Wed Mar 5 16:58:12 2014	[17:04]
-assbot-	Welcome to #bitcoin-assets. To get voice (ie, to be able to speak), send me "!up" in a private message to get an OTP. You must have a sufficient WoT rating. If you do not have a WoT account or sufficient rating, try politely asking one of the voiced people for a temporary voice.	[17:04]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform the dispute was 730/736	[17:04]
*	#bitcoin-assets :Cannot send to channel	[17:04]
*	assbot gives voice to mircea_popescu	[17:05]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform the dispute was 730/736	[17:05]
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*	assbot gives voice to pete_dushenski	[17:11]
trinque	mircea_popescu: is your node down?	[17:11]
trinque	getting connection refused	[17:11]
mircea_popescu	ima look into it.	[17:12]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34200 @ 0.00054188 = 18.5323 BTC [+]	[17:20]
mircea_popescu	trinque i dun see anything	[17:26]
punkman	^ works here	[17:27]
trinque	I got connection refused starting at 07/04/15 20:02:12 UTC	[17:28]
trinque	came back at 07/04/15 20:09:46	[17:28]
*	trinque shrugs	[17:28]
trinque	ass-goblins in the intertubes	[17:28]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform : "Reorg!	[17:28]
mircea_popescu	Cut 6 start 000000000000000006a3 end 000000000000000013fe	[17:28]
mircea_popescu	Add 7 start 000000000000000006a3 end 0000000000000000014e"	[17:28]
mircea_popescu	they should. eventually.	[17:29]
mircea_popescu	fork's only been actually resolved a few hours ago.	[17:29]
punkman	http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3c404r/shout_out_to_the_american_core_devs_that_are/	[17:33]
assbot	Shout out to the American Core Devs that are spending their 4th ensuring the health of the blockchain : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1TcE1R7 )	[17:33]
trinque	pfff	[17:34]
trinque	speaking of which, I'm adding the coverage flag to the deps too, and will regen that gcovr html thereafter	[17:34]
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trinque	I was surprised to find that bitcoin doesn't actually look that big compared to other C++ projects I've seen	[17:35]
trinque	just... messy	[17:35]
trinque	it'll be neat to see for example how much of boost or openssl is actually used	[17:36]
trinque	might be able to just rip those bits off from the dep, then cut off the dep	[17:36]
jurov	!s openssl monkeys	[17:36]
assbot	1 results for 'openssl monkeys' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=openssl+monkeys	[17:36]
punkman	you can't cut off boost	[17:37]
jurov	trinque and anyone other: mandatory reading	[17:37]
trinque	jurov: hyper-lol	[17:37]
trinque	punkman: whysat	[17:37]
trinque	too interconnected?	[17:37]
punkman	you'll just have to reimplement everything	[17:37]
trinque	but what's "everything"?	[17:37]
trinque	2% of boost?	[17:37]
trinque	it'd be boost's interconnectedness that might prevent it, maybe	[17:38]
trinque	anyhow this is what I wanna see with the gcov thing	[17:38]
punkman	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=15-02-2015#1019971	[17:40]
assbot	Logged on 15-02-2015 22:34:28; asciilifeform: 2) tearing out 'boost' while keeping the project in cpp will turn it into an unreadable morass of crud that makes the existing turd look like the finest sausage	[17:40]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 60200 @ 0.00054492 = 32.8042 BTC [+] {2}	[17:40]
mircea_popescu	trinque, asciilifeform, wimc : if client fails to progress past 363736, the likely culprit is the db locks limit. look in derp.log (assuming standard derp) for "REORGANIZE REORGANIZE: Disconnect 6 blocks; 000000000000000006a3..000000000000000013fe REORGANIZE: Connect 7 blocks; 000000000000000006a3..0000000000000000014e ************************ EXCEPTION: 11DbException Db::get: Cannot allocate memory bitcoin i	[17:40]
mircea_popescu	n ProcessMessage() ProcessMessage(block, 947244 bytes) FAILED " which is the confirmation. then increase the number o' locks.	[17:40]
trinque	k, ty	[17:41]
mircea_popescu	alternatively, feed it the last few blocks through the mechanism discussed that alf created recently i guess.	[17:41]
mircea_popescu	might be able to just rip those bits off from the dep, then cut off the dep <<< ahahaha you.	[17:42]
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trinque	mircea_popescu: I'm sure I'm about to see a nightmare when I pull the deps into the gcov thinger	[17:43]
trinque	but bitcoin! it seems so simple!	[17:44]
*	trinque shakes his head	[17:44]
jurov	can gcov cope with templated function generated by macros?	[17:46]
mod6	286k+	[17:49]
*	assbot gives voice to menahem	[17:49]
trinque	jurov: according to this you lose a lot of detail, i.e only get statistics for the line of the macro call http://codingfreak.blogspot.com/2009/02/gcov-analyzing-code-produced-with-gcc.html	[17:51]
assbot	Gcov - analyzing code produced with GCC	[17:51]
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danielpbarron	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-07-2015#1186129 << a tape recorder is the one thing I forgot to bring (I had specifically prepared one for the event but forgot to pack it) -- the mere act of having such a device around free-staters would probably trigger them into a rage	[17:52]
assbot	Logged on 03-07-2015 23:48:17; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-07-2015#1184704 << dude you gotta wear a recording devince next and have someone transcribe it.	[17:52]
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trinque	danielpbarron: s-stop the surveillance!	[17:52]
jurov	you can record with cellphone, no?	[17:54]
jurov	or is removing battery mandatory at such meetings?	[17:55]
mircea_popescu	incidentally, am i the only one finding it a wee bit suspicious that the orphan chain ended up 6 blocks long, ie, exactly the size normally deemed "safe" ?	[17:56]
pete_dushenski	mircea_popescu: you think there was a big transaction that got double-spent ? or...	[17:57]
mircea_popescu	one could definitely have existed, on this basis.	[17:57]
danielpbarron	jurov, by the time i can get my iphone out of pocket, unlocked, open the recording app, start recording.... the lunatic has already spouted off the gems worth recording	[17:57]
pete_dushenski	what i can't figure out is why the hashrate didn't seem to split with the ph0rk...	[17:57]
mircea_popescu	then again plenty of people do not even wait for one.	[17:58]
jurov	pete_dushenski does anyone do such fine statistics?	[17:58]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1186531 << the clients do seem to run into similar problems eh.	[17:58]
assbot	Logged on 04-07-2015 04:15:35; ben_vulpes: simple rehash of the "let's probe network cohesion strength" fork	[17:58]
mircea_popescu	pete_dushenski 6 blocks wouldn't necessarily be visible. even three deep reorgs happen with some regularity naturally.	[17:59]
pete_dushenski	jurov: perhaps not.	[18:00]
pete_dushenski	mircea_popescu: ok, but assuming those 6 invalid orphan blocks are off on their own, how is it that some sites (eg. bc.i) are reporting that this foundation of sand is still being built on ?	[18:01]
mircea_popescu	are they ? i've not looked.	[18:02]
pete_dushenski	bc.i is	[18:02]
jurov	no it reports them as orphaned	[18:02]
jurov	https://blockchain.info/blocks just the numbering is messed up	[18:03]
assbot	Blocks mined on 04/07/2015	[18:03]
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pete_dushenski	jurov: perhaps ima confoozed, but don't orphaned blocks have to be replaced with valid blocks in the main chain ?	[18:03]
jurov	yes.. that's why i say numbers are messed up	[18:03]
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pete_dushenski	so the numbers are meaningless ?	[18:03]
pete_dushenski	must be...	[18:04]
mircea_popescu	here's what's the idea : after botching the soft fork, it seems illogical that the entire bip system should continue at all.	[18:04]
mircea_popescu	these are people who have been so far causing nothing but problems for bitcoin.	[18:04]
mircea_popescu	there can not be a single instance documented where they did anything useful to any degree or in any sense	[18:04]
mircea_popescu	an abundance of instances can be documented where they fucked things up	[18:04]
mircea_popescu	then they go on reddit to "explain" why what they fucked up isn't their fault, and "what really happened" , and collect cheap applause from the celenterates therein living.	[18:05]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24700 @ 0.00054516 = 13.4655 BTC [+]	[18:05]
*	pete_dushenski searches memory for instances of useful 'devs'... blank.	[18:05]
mircea_popescu	this is EXACTLY how usg works throughout. first, cause black people to be poor and depenedent. then cause them to be violent. then go on press conferences about how "they're doing things about black violence"	[18:05]
shinohai	;;later tell mod6 new build successful and now in sync ...	[18:06]
gribble	The operation succeeded.	[18:06]
mircea_popescu	right. splendid. how about go home and the problem goes away with you.	[18:06]
mircea_popescu	so in this sense, BIP 999 : No more fucking BIPs.	[18:06]
pete_dushenski	mircea_popescu: it's the broken window/car accident economy	[18:06]
pete_dushenski	great for gdp.	[18:06]
mircea_popescu	i do not see any gdp here.	[18:06]
pete_dushenski	shitty for civilisation.	[18:07]
mircea_popescu	for the unsubstantiated delusionsm of a few random geeks, working to make the world believe they're knowledgeable and important, bitcoin hiccups every so often.	[18:07]
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pete_dushenski	!gettrust travispatron	[18:11]
assbot	travispatron is not registered in WoT.	[18:11]
pete_dushenski	for when he does...	[18:11]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 170149 @ 0.00054549 = 92.8146 BTC [+] {4}	[18:12]
pete_dushenski	;;later tell travispatron you sucked before, you suck now, and you will always suck. enjoy the periphery, derp.	[18:12]
gribble	The operation succeeded.	[18:12]
pete_dushenski	for posterity, because menahem's comment was beleeted once and it'll obviously happen again :https://archive.is/mKOij	[18:13]
menahem	lulz	[18:13]
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jurov	pete_dushenski: looks like b.info is hopelessly stuck on showing only orphaned blocks	[18:16]
jurov	http://btc.blockr.io/block/info/363736 vs. https://blockchain.info/block-height/363736	[18:17]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1LPnpNX )	[18:17]
assbot	Bitcoin Blocks At Height 363736 ... ( http://bit.ly/1LPnpO1 )	[18:17]
jurov	(blockr is right)	[18:17]
pete_dushenski	such vc funding...	[18:17]
pete_dushenski	wait, who owns blockr again ?	[18:18]
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mod6	<+mircea_popescu> here's what's the idea : after botching the soft fork, it seems illogical that the entire bip system should continue at all. << Very much agreed. If someone wants to change something they should write to The Foundation's btc-dev mailing list and submit a patch. And if they can't because they're not in the WoT, well they're not in the WoT. They can make a personal appeal here in person.	[18:20]
mircea_popescu	alternatively they could just shut down and stfu already.	[18:21]
mod6	haha. yeah, that too.	[18:21]
shinohai	lel	[18:21]
mats	pete_dushenski: coinbase	[18:21]
pete_dushenski	mats: aha thanks. just goes to show that there are shades of grey in the braindead morass of veecee moolah, not all are created equal.	[18:22]
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mircea_popescu	also lulzy for all the people using blockchain.info to validate txn.	[18:26]
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jurov	or b1ockchain.info or other similar derivatives	[18:27]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 58249 @ 0.00054577 = 31.7906 BTC [+]	[18:44]
mircea_popescu	"wangchun Luke-Jr: I do not know how that v2 pool was relayed, log was lost in a screen session"	[18:49]
mircea_popescu	this gotta be a... cultural thing.	[18:49]
mats	le pgp key server almost done cooking	[18:49]
mats	mircea_popescu: should i make it publicly available for auditing?	[18:50]
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mircea_popescu	mats of course.	[18:50]
mats	or keep it in house; perhaps jurov or asciilifeform would be interested in doing it	[18:50]
mats	alright	[18:50]
mircea_popescu	consider sign and submit to list.	[18:50]
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mircea_popescu	!up ascii_modem	[18:52]
-assbot-	You voiced ascii_modem for 30 minutes.	[18:52]
*	assbot gives voice to ascii_modem	[18:52]
mircea_popescu	apparently in the world we live in, the best way to ensure nobody reads something is to publish it as code anyway	[18:53]
ascii_modem	so where are the pikes with the headz??	[18:53]
mircea_popescu	there is no physical punishment for being extremely ridiculous.	[18:54]
ascii_modem	oh and no reorgs in my log	[18:54]
mircea_popescu	there are some people that go around introducing themseves as "bitcoin devs" who just spectacularly failed the least controversial soft fork to date.	[18:54]
mircea_popescu	this isn't washing	[18:54]
mircea_popescu	but whatever, phantomcircuit is still the guy who ran "a security companmy" that oversaw 3 bitcoinica thefts, and still the guy who hacked a python one liner to send every customer an email with the full list of customer emails	[18:55]
mircea_popescu	yet he's still walking around as if he were somehow still a person.	[18:55]
mircea_popescu	the dead don't know they're dead ; the ridiculous don't know they're ridiculous. the world is well constructed for one's amusement.	[18:55]
ascii_modem	the enemy accomplished his objective, which probably had something to do with discrediting chinese mines	[18:56]
mircea_popescu	to pin objectives on brownian motion...	[18:56]
mircea_popescu	"the enemy" is barely cogent enough to be enmitous at all.	[18:56]
ascii_modem	not brownian - has very obvious aims (keeping turdalicious-bitcoind in circulation being one)	[18:57]
mircea_popescu	i suspect this obviousness is a fruit of your eye, not of the thing you're lookling on. like people perceive souls in cats' eyes.	[18:58]
mircea_popescu	just because you have one, and it's a very reflective surface, doesn't mean it has one too.	[18:58]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25300 @ 0.00054735 = 13.848 BTC [+]	[18:58]
mircea_popescu	neway, of more interesting things : confirmed my seeder's stuck on 363736.	[18:59]
ascii_modem	aha	[18:59]
ascii_modem	was when i last saw	[18:59]
mircea_popescu	ascii_modem this is incidentally an exceptional opportunity to test our recent toolset.	[19:00]
ascii_modem	hm?	[19:00]
mircea_popescu	what happens if you import the 7 block alt-chain into the stator ?	[19:01]
ascii_modem	innit in there now? or am i confused	[19:01]
mircea_popescu	atm the situation is that block 363730 is forked. one chain, 6 blocks long, proceeds atop a v2 block. the current main chain proceeds from 363730 on v3 blocks.	[19:02]
*	Drhelmut has quit ()	[19:02]
mircea_popescu	the difference between v3 and v2 is , as best anyone can determine, actual fucking validation for the openssl nonsense. hardly avoidable.	[19:02]
mod6	!gettrust phf mod6	[19:03]
assbot	Trust relationship from user phf to user mod6: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. \| http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/trust/?from=phf&to=mod6 \| http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/user/mod6/	[19:03]
mircea_popescu	this, obviously, would also be where to bury who knows what. but if it's there, nobody's found it yet that i know	[19:03]
ascii_modem	so evil wins?	[19:03]
mircea_popescu	how so ?	[19:03]
ascii_modem	we involuntarily backport a gavinism?	[19:04]
mircea_popescu	how's it a gavinism to begin with ?	[19:04]
ascii_modem	because not ours?	[19:04]
mircea_popescu	lemme lay out the issue here in detail, i think it's mebbe getting fudged.	[19:05]
mircea_popescu	so 1. it was observed that the idiots running openssl, who for historical reasons are actually wholesale pulled into bitcoin, decided to fuck up the way they do signatures, which is to say, make items signed come out in rnadom shapes. this is obviously very dangerous for bitcoin	[19:05]
ascii_modem	aga i recall	[19:06]
mircea_popescu	2. a voluntary, user-enforced change to the protocol was proposed (iirc by petertodd) where only DER sigs are accepted anymore.	[19:06]
mircea_popescu	this is neither a bad idea nor in any sense avoidable. because, again, without it we'll fork daily.	[19:06]
mircea_popescu	it'd have been ideal to not import the satoshism in question into bitcoin, but before our time.	[19:06]
mircea_popescu	3. in order to avoid the situation that happened tonight, a supposed "voting" mechanism was deployed where people switched an irrelevant byte in the blocks they mined, to go from 2 to 3, to indicate they are ready and willing to follow the new rules.	[19:07]
mircea_popescu	this, again, has nothing to do with us. if tomorrow miners decide as a social game to never communicate any blocks they find that hash to odd, it's THEIR problem	[19:07]
ascii_modem	where were the daily forks b/w january (?) and now ?	[19:08]
mircea_popescu	and we'll never see an odd hash block for as long as they keep at it.	[19:08]
mircea_popescu	lemme finish	[19:08]
mircea_popescu	4. the people who voted did so as all people voting ever do : blankly, mouth only. then, someone mined a v2 block on top of a v3 block (which to them look identical) and the supposed 95% majority that promised by that vote to distinguish failed to distinguish. well, half of them or so. the other half distinguished	[19:09]
mircea_popescu	this utterly proves that a) the BIP system provides no benefit and should be disused ; b) the peoiple involved with all this nonsense should be muted ; c) voting does not work. nothing here is novel.	[19:09]
mircea_popescu	none of this in any way invalidates anything about the new chain, nor is it a point of concern that i can distinguish	[19:10]
mircea_popescu	done.,	[19:10]
ascii_modem	got plan?	[19:11]
mircea_popescu	ascii_modem where were the daily forks b/w january (?) and now ? << costs a little to make one, nobody cared enough. (also lots of manual intervention and general ducttaping at the miner and relayer level - bitcoin is quickly becoming an excellent makework tool, keeping idiots both employed and in a delusion of importance)	[19:11]
mircea_popescu	well, just let the chain reorg an' carry on, imo.	[19:11]
*	diana_coman has quit (Quit: Leaving)	[19:12]
mircea_popescu	i still don't see how it affects us / anything of concern.	[19:12]
ascii_modem	where is my reorg?	[19:12]
ascii_modem	my node is dead in the water	[19:12]
mircea_popescu	the only problem is that the clients ain't reorging properly, which needs looking into/	[19:12]
mircea_popescu	which is why i said, perfect time to test our tools.	[19:13]
ascii_modem	i saw no signs of blocks happening at all	[19:13]
mircea_popescu	specifically, what happens if you put the new chain into a node	[19:13]
mircea_popescu	well you're only looking at mine, and mine's not relaying.	[19:14]
ascii_modem	ah	[19:14]
mircea_popescu	which it's how it's made to work, better fail than be stupid.	[19:14]
ascii_modem	gonna plug in the one on dulap when i get home	[19:14]
mircea_popescu	now, since you're synced to my level, and you have a full validating node, i see no reason to not open the listen port. do you ?	[19:15]
ascii_modem	open	[19:15]
mircea_popescu	the original point of this thing i run here was to give all comers the historical chain as is in my custody.	[19:15]
mircea_popescu	i do intend to replace it with a foundation one as soon as practicable.	[19:15]
mircea_popescu	but for now it can stay as it is, because i think more people were syncing to it.	[19:15]
mircea_popescu	im also going to have it unstuck, but i got a shitpile of stuff cooking atm.	[19:16]
mircea_popescu	behind on reports and etc.	[19:16]
ascii_modem	from your earlier pastes, mirceacoind has slightly spiffier debug...? than ri	[19:16]
mircea_popescu	i dunno, mebbe	[19:17]
mircea_popescu	i dun think i ever used the original.	[19:17]
mircea_popescu	what's bitcoind debug toolset ?	[19:17]
ascii_modem	just about nil	[19:18]
ascii_modem	only the log	[19:18]
mircea_popescu	then perforce ?	[19:18]
*	DreadKnight has quit (Quit: #AncientBeast - Master Your Beasts ( www.AncientBeast.com ))	[19:18]
ascii_modem	?	[19:18]
trinque	ascii_modem: some lcov output for ya http://bot.deedbot.org/stator-lcov/	[19:18]
assbot	LCOV - coverage.info ... ( http://bit.ly/1KFihdx )	[19:18]
trinque	added the --coverage flag to all the deps	[19:18]
mircea_popescu	ascii_modem anything will be spiffier than nil neh ?	[19:18]
ascii_modem	trinque: neato - will read as soon as i'm not on street	[19:19]
trinque	cool, just wanted to post the link	[19:19]
ascii_modem	fellas, we gotta infer, divine, & reimplement mircea_popescu's mega-debugger	[19:20]
mircea_popescu	i run a public company wut do you want from me, blood ?	[19:21]
mircea_popescu	omaygerd	[19:21]
ascii_modem	l0l	[19:22]
mircea_popescu	anyway, i am very much amused at the way discussion with kakobrekla turned out. 600 hours "oh miners will just so and so " "nobody cares what miners do" ; 1800 "oh miners just so and so'd!!1" "and it turns out nobody cared".	[19:23]
*	hdbuck has quit (Quit: hdbuck)	[19:23]
mircea_popescu	so what, is "95% consensus" going to gavincoin next ? for ... all of six blocks again ? cool.	[19:23]
*	assbot removes voice from ascii_modem	[19:23]
thestringpuller	!up ascii_modem	[19:24]
*	assbot gives voice to ascii_modem	[19:24]
ascii_modem	picture if we had pogos deployed	[19:25]
mircea_popescu	wouldn't have changed anything.	[19:25]
thestringpuller	d00d i can't spend shit this weekend.	[19:25]
thestringpuller	"We need 20 confirms sorry"	[19:25]
ascii_modem	how many other ways for fuckers to wedge us	[19:25]
mircea_popescu	oh oh.	[19:25]
mircea_popescu	myeah.	[19:25]
mircea_popescu	this is a major problem, and the fact we're looking into it one of the few things giving me solace and better rest at night	[19:26]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 142438 @ 0.00054539 = 77.6843 BTC [-] {2}	[19:26]
ascii_modem	this incident makes it very tempting to just unzip, piss on satoshid, and go ada sanityfork (tm)	[19:26]
mircea_popescu	gotta make the fambly unit work alfie.	[19:26]
ascii_modem	?	[19:27]
mircea_popescu	i know she's stupid and fat and you want a divorce, but...	[19:27]
mircea_popescu	gotta make the fambly unit work.	[19:27]
ascii_modem	right now we got an anthill in the living room	[19:28]
mircea_popescu	and you don't even know about the used condoms behind the bed headboard	[19:28]
ascii_modem	there are different schools of thought re how to furnish a room	[19:28]
punkman	I think we need to put a lot more comments on the code, kinda clunky to do through patches to ML though	[19:28]
ascii_modem	but none include anthill	[19:28]
thestringpuller	you married alf?	[19:28]
mircea_popescu	punkman you can resubmit it commented.	[19:28]
mircea_popescu	an' signed, an' people will prolly prefer referencing yours unless it's dumb	[19:29]
mircea_popescu	in which case they'll prolly change it rather than start from the original. unles it's VERY dumb.	[19:29]
mircea_popescu	which sort of reorg apparentyly happens, or used to happen, a whole lot.	[19:29]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45900 @ 0.00054068 = 24.8172 BTC [-]	[19:31]
ascii_modem	so far i'm not sure any of you apprehend just what a steaming turd the thing is	[19:31]
punkman	in other news, ATMs getting ddos'd even at 1am. rejects transaction, spits out card, and you gotta start over. perhaps intentional rate-limiting.	[19:31]
ascii_modem	where?	[19:32]
mircea_popescu	he's in greece.	[19:32]
mircea_popescu	anyway, the main sufferance in my head atm is that reading the chinese stuff (in translation) clarifies in my head an objection that may well be a second major flaw to the protocol, after the "relay nodes gotta do it for the glory" : its altogether unclear a purely financial incentive is the correct solution for miners.	[19:32]
ascii_modem	ah!	[19:32]
ascii_modem	^^^^	[19:32]
mircea_popescu	specifically : atm there is an arbitrage open, where you can either make money by "brute forcing" it ie hashing,	[19:32]
mircea_popescu	or else by fucking up other people's miners. i ordered a listing of "all the ways you could exploit a miner with crafted comms for a hash advantage"	[19:33]
mircea_popescu	the process hasn't returned yet, the list is already hundreds of entries long	[19:33]
mircea_popescu	most only apply to specific implementationms etc, but! fuck me...	[19:33]
ascii_modem	this is the exam thread all over again	[19:33]
mircea_popescu	it pays more as a pool operator to be into skulldugery than into running your pool	[19:33]
ascii_modem	where 'exams optimize for examsmanship'	[19:34]
mircea_popescu	ipso facto "running pool" ===== "nefariousness in layers"	[19:34]
mircea_popescu	sure, people don't do it yet. mostly because lazy, 2nd mostly because stupid, 3rd mostly because it's not even txn time yet.	[19:34]
mircea_popescu	but when that begins all this may fucking collapse under the weight of... if money's the incentive to mine mining will not exactly allign with "securing the network"	[19:35]
mircea_popescu	(txn time = when most miner revenue comes from block txn)	[19:35]
ascii_modem	the mire scant the crumbs, the bloodier the crumbfight	[19:35]
scoopbot_revived	Bitcoin's 4th of July : INDEPENDENCE FROM AMERICA DAY http://www.contravex.com/2015/07/04/bitcoins-4th-of-july-independence-from-america-day/	[19:35]
mircea_popescu	lol	[19:36]
ascii_modem	*more	[19:36]
pete_dushenski	^my modest post-mortem, perhaps early...	[19:36]
mircea_popescu	ascii_modem more specifically put : currently everyone is mining with a "god given" known tx of 25 btc + whatever they pick off the ground.	[19:36]
mircea_popescu	tomorrow, they will not KNOW immediately through act of god where that 25 btc comes from	[19:37]
ascii_modem	12.5...	[19:37]
mircea_popescu	atm 99.x% of income comes through this immediate, sent-from-heaven-above channel	[19:38]
mircea_popescu	if as much as 66% comes that way and the other 33% has to be found out about... o baby.	[19:38]
mircea_popescu	hard to convey what the changes in dynamic such a thing brings.	[19:38]
ascii_modem	also touches on the mempool thread	[19:39]
mircea_popescu	really the % of income "just known" vs "information acquired" is the proper measure.	[19:39]
mircea_popescu	atm the split is .999 - .001 or somesuch. this will change monotoniucall;y the other way	[19:39]
ascii_modem	whole thing is mostly duct tape by weight	[19:39]
punkman	"A blockchain that does not validate under 0.5.3 is an altcoin blockchain." << both forks were valid in 0.5.3, right?	[19:41]
ascii_modem	so far there is no structure remotely enough to take up the weight if the duct tape is ripped out	[19:41]
mircea_popescu	punkman right. hence all the "We don't give a shit" verbiage here.	[19:41]
mircea_popescu	anyway, i don't envisage as much as an inkling of a solution. just more stuff to worry about.	[19:43]
ascii_modem	one one hand, i don't give a shit, yes. on the other, a human turd pressed a button, my nodes are halted, and there is no guarantee that they don't have a bottomless magazine of these	[19:43]
mircea_popescu	but this situation is why im so cold on your ada idea. sure, you go put all the god damned effort into writing a fully correct, fully specified implementation oif an... broken idea.	[19:43]
mircea_popescu	i like you too much for something liek that.	[19:43]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57600 @ 0.00053931 = 31.0643 BTC [-] {3}	[19:44]
ascii_modem	so invent correct idea ?	[19:44]
mircea_popescu	until we know exactly wtf to do about relayers, about miners now, there is no point. the prototype's still prototypin'.	[19:44]
mircea_popescu	dude, how about you actually get some data first omfg.	[19:44]
mircea_popescu	yea, i get it, may mean that this makes your fate be to muddle in the dirt, piling up data for your kid, who maybe might do it.	[19:44]
mircea_popescu	fuck you, your grandparents were farmers. it's how this fucking world works.	[19:45]
ascii_modem	would really help to have a fucking reasonable platform for this	[19:45]
mircea_popescu	yes. it would really help.	[19:45]
ascii_modem	that means not hairball	[19:45]
mircea_popescu	no, i know.	[19:45]
ascii_modem	actually ~my~ grandparents were approx. what i am now, l0l	[19:47]
ascii_modem	the male ones at least	[19:47]
ascii_modem	but farming is tempting, yes	[19:48]
punkman	"Chrome extension "BitcoinWisdom Ads Remover" by MasterX will change your btce deposit address after page is loaded. Do not use this app or remove it if you installed."	[19:48]
punkman	surprised we aren't seeing more of these	[19:48]
ascii_modem	run moar chromedowz!!	[19:48]
punkman	farming is tempting?	[19:48]
ascii_modem	compared to c++	[19:49]
punkman	wait until you try to debug plants	[19:49]
trinque	or a cow's arse	[19:49]
ascii_modem	bbl	[19:50]
*	ascii_modem has quit (Remote host closed the connection)	[19:50]
*	samO (~samO@93-86-125-21.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[19:52]
*	samO has quit (Changing host)	[19:52]
*	samO (~samO@unaffiliated/samo) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[19:52]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform just sayin, humanity was built by originally trudging the muck with no tools.	[19:53]
mircea_popescu	there is no reason to expect any better in this new field. it is, after all, a field.	[19:53]
mircea_popescu	and yes, most men died before seeing the thing they were working for. historically, to date.	[19:53]
mircea_popescu	there's no reason to expect etc etc.	[19:53]
mircea_popescu	wait until you try to debug plants << he has a point there. tho in fairness iirc alf debugged mice at some point.	[19:54]
*	mircea_popescu is mildly impressed at alf's lineage in any case. my grandparents were teachers and whatnot, but great-grandparents deifnitely farmers.	[19:56]
punkman	I get very frustrated at things like "o hey we've sprayed 12 different solutions at it and the damn lemon tree still has fungus"	[19:56]
mircea_popescu	not really that far off	[19:56]
mircea_popescu	punkman i had problems with, "artichoke does so well here, it actually STAYED GREEN THROUGH WINTER, suppoirting an inch of snow on its upturned broad leaves. meanwhile, magnolia sapplings grow < 1inch per year and will never flower"	[19:57]
mircea_popescu	the town was fully of blooming magnolias and i never saw a single artichoke plant outside of my garden	[19:58]
punkman	for a short time I believed in the mythical farmer that actually knows what he's doing. But after watching the experts debug these things, my only conclusion is they sometimes get lucky and that's the best I could hope for.	[20:00]
punkman	maybe they got better corn science over in the US, dunno.	[20:01]
mircea_popescu	just like coders.	[20:01]
mircea_popescu	yeah, if you agree to make unedible crud you may have better control.	[20:01]
danielpbarron	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1187199 << whoops. My 0.5.3.1ish pogo node is the one that is fully synched after today's craziness; it's my 0.7.2 node that is currently stuck..	[20:02]
assbot	Logged on 04-07-2015 16:52:19; danielpbarron: my 0.7.2 node is at height=363815	[20:02]
mircea_popescu	danielpbarron are yuou up to date ? what's lastblock ?	[20:02]
punkman	I tried heirloom tomatos for a bit. I now know why everyone's using the same boring/bland strain.	[20:02]
danielpbarron	height=363856	[20:02]
mircea_popescu	yeah that' right	[20:03]
mircea_popescu	consider pubnlishing ip if not done so already	[20:03]
danielpbarron	i don't have port forwarded to that machine	[20:03]
mircea_popescu	punkman meanwhile hanbot used to grow cherry tomatoes on her windowsill.	[20:03]
mircea_popescu	like... half pount per six inch tall plant	[20:03]
danielpbarron	aha my isp provided modem/router is working again. will have ip in a moment	[20:06]
danielpbarron	(previously forwarded all ports to one DMZ machine)	[20:06]
mod6	<+danielpbarron> height=363856 << your v0.5.3.1ish node has this height?	[20:07]
mircea_popescu	hanbot it still seems thermodynamically impossible.	[20:07]
mircea_popescu	a two ounce leaf can not carry a twelve ounce load!	[20:08]
mircea_popescu	mod6 the blockchain is not compromised.	[20:08]
hanbot	you don't understand the way the windowmato works.	[20:08]
mircea_popescu	just some nodes have trouble unsticking, which as i said above, great place to test our new block manip tools etc.	[20:08]
danielpbarron	mod6, yes	[20:08]
mod6	yeah, read that.	[20:08]
mod6	mp, you're right, should test the new dump/eat tools with the orphan blocks	[20:09]
mod6	see what happens.	[20:09]
mircea_popescu	i still dunno why they do it. i've not yet managed to unstick a stuck one from last night	[20:09]
mod6	danielpbarron: great! thanks	[20:09]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 80000 @ 0.0005447 = 43.576 BTC [+] {2}	[20:09]
mircea_popescu	superficially it seemed reorg blocks like it did in 2013, but maybe deeper than that. have not yet gone too deep into	[20:09]
punkman	we need something that stores these forks for inspection and replaying. I think ben_vulpes had a thread about that	[20:09]
mircea_popescu	punkman well now we have it! alf wrote the shitblock!	[20:10]
mircea_popescu	this is exactly the sortt of situation the entire deterministic thing he was crowing about is meant for.	[20:10]
mircea_popescu	which, in terms of parachutes.. .you gotta admit... perfect timing	[20:10]
danielpbarron	71.232.150.212 port 8139 is a fully synched 0.5.3.1~ node	[20:11]
mircea_popescu	almost as if someone was holding off hitting the muppets over the head with a 2x4 until b-a crowd had its ducks lined	[20:11]
punkman	yeah but after reorg it throws the things away right? you'd have to shitblock at just the right time	[20:11]
cazalla	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1187574 <<< never had a problem with them down under.. 4-5 day heat wave is the only thing that fucked my tomatoes 2 seasons ago	[20:11]
assbot	Logged on 04-07-2015 22:58:41; punkman: I tried heirloom tomatos for a bit. I now know why everyone's using the same boring/bland strain.	[20:11]
mircea_popescu	punkman which is why im keeping stuck nodes.	[20:11]
mircea_popescu	the one i originally advertised for instance.	[20:11]
punkman	cazalla: I fucked the up with too much sunlight many times.	[20:11]
mircea_popescu	cazalla did you spray water ?	[20:11]
cazalla	mircea_popescu, nope, good water in the evening and morning but the 4-5 days of 40-44 degree heat toppled em	[20:12]
mircea_popescu	people in heatwave places have these fine nozzles	[20:13]
mircea_popescu	a gallon of water makes half hour's mist, protects the plant if there's any air draft at all	[20:13]
mircea_popescu	otherwise, stews it. which...	[20:13]
cazalla	might've been the uv damage that killed em, i don't really know other than summer 2013 provide no tomatos	[20:15]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17800 @ 0.00054735 = 9.7428 BTC [+]	[20:15]
cazalla	thinking about making some tomato wine this coming summer but from what i've read, it isn't that nice	[20:18]
ben_vulpes	alright << i'd love a read	[20:18]
punkman	cazalla: might as well get some grapes	[20:19]
cazalla	unfortunately i don't really have a place suitable for a few vines	[20:20]
punkman	cazalla, you can grow a tall vine and have it hang from a pergola type thing	[20:22]
mod6	phf: hey, i was able to apply your patch for OpenBSD onto stator, but I hit this problem after boost compiled: http://dpaste.com/0WRAK16.txt any thoughts?	[20:22]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1G0zgki )	[20:22]
ben_vulpes	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1187419 << this was so stupid.	[20:23]
assbot	Logged on 04-07-2015 22:03:31; mircea_popescu: 3. in order to avoid the situation that happened tonight, a supposed "voting" mechanism was deployed where people switched an irrelevant byte in the blocks they mined, to go from 2 to 3, to indicate they are ready and willing to follow the new rules.	[20:23]
cazalla	punkman, no pergola but we have a clothesline i could commandeer but doubt the missus would like that heh	[20:23]
scoopbot_revived	MPEx (S.MPOE) June 2015 Statement http://trilema.com/2015/mpex-smpoe-june-2015-statement/	[20:23]
punkman	cazalla: makes for a nice shade too, http://st.houzz.com/simgs/14316d7f0d69c5f6_4-2255/traditional-landscape.jpg	[20:24]
cazalla	punkman, that's lovely, just wish i had the room :	[20:25]
punkman	used to have one of these on 2nd floor roof, vine roots at ground floor	[20:25]
punkman	shade's good for the bunnies too, such synergy	[20:25]
cazalla	punkman, killed em off a while ago, might take em up again once i own a larger block of land	[20:26]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 165384 @ 0.00053421 = 88.3498 BTC [-] {3}	[20:31]
punkman	https://twitter.com/_joac/status/617152001504378880	[20:32]
punkman	"Después de encontrar una vulnerabilidad grave en el sistema de voto electrónico a #MSA estan allanando mi casa, los de delitos informaticos."	[20:32]
punkman	(in argentina)	[20:32]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57908 @ 0.00053236 = 30.8279 BTC [-]	[20:37]
ben_vulpes	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1187606 << thank you! very cool.	[20:38]
assbot	Logged on 04-07-2015 23:07:30; mircea_popescu: punkman which is why im keeping stuck nodes.	[20:38]
*	assbot gives voice to gernika	[20:38]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8306 @ 0.00053236 = 4.4218 BTC [-]	[20:39]
gernika	For any interested: using phf's patch with a few mods for amd64 I have successfully built stator on OpenBSD.	[20:39]
gernika	It is syncing	[20:39]
punkman	gernika: cool	[20:40]
ben_vulpes	so's this phr0k the nail in 20mb blocks' coffin?	[20:40]
punkman	gernika, maybe write up your process/mods	[20:40]
gernika	Will do. Need to sign up for the mailing list.	[20:41]
ben_vulpes	pete_dushenski: "i sell bitcoins and bitcoin-backed derivatives"	[20:41]
mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes myeah.	[20:41]
ben_vulpes	1mb's too big already.	[20:42]
punkman	didn't need more nails	[20:42]
ben_vulpes	how convenient!	[20:42]
thestringpuller	ben_vulpes: is now known as ben hill	[20:43]
mircea_popescu	"Después de encontrar una vulnerabilidad grave en el sistema de voto electrónico a #MSA estan allanando mi casa, los de delitos informaticos." << in case anyone else missed it, this country is mostly a parody.	[20:43]
ben_vulpes	clearly you don't fight enough zombies	[20:43]
mircea_popescu	gernika well done.	[20:43]
mircea_popescu	!rated gernika	[20:43]
assbot	You have not rated gernika.	[20:43]
mircea_popescu	!rate gernika 1 New blood.	[20:43]
assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/3cb6bf2132382215	[20:43]
mircea_popescu	!v assbot:mircea_popescu.rate.gernika.1:eb318647a108e0be29f9865dd2fdfb67a3b866e012eab068bab5f31c1d2db831	[20:43]
gernika	thanks mircea_popescu	[20:43]
ben_vulpes	wait gernika's new blood?	[20:43]
assbot	Successfully added a rating of 1 for gernika with note: New blood.	[20:43]
mircea_popescu	is to me.	[20:43]
mircea_popescu	gernika, maybe write up your process/mods << also a good idea. submit to mail list, now you can.	[20:44]
punkman	he voiced himself, could post at ml already	[20:44]
mircea_popescu	ah right. missed that.	[20:44]
shinohai	@ ben_vulpes did you need anything important when you pinged me earlier? It was like 4 am here, so I missed it	[20:46]
pete_dushenski	ben_vulpes: from whence this quote ?	[20:48]
pete_dushenski	travis ?	[20:48]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1187150 << i think this is a bad idea.	[20:49]
assbot	Logged on 04-07-2015 16:02:26; punkman: maybe we should add a .conf option that lets whoever really wants it to skip VerifySig between checkpoints	[20:49]
pete_dushenski	alas, some cabin and some party with some people beckon. a demain !	[20:50]
*	pete_dushenski has quit (Remote host closed the connection)	[20:50]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1187155 << this isn't the right aproach. can you think of any reason TO include it ?	[20:50]
assbot	Logged on 04-07-2015 16:04:00; asciilifeform: can't think of any reason not to	[20:50]
ben_vulpes	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-07-2015#1185459 << i don't think this addresses collusion.	[20:50]
assbot	Logged on 03-07-2015 18:17:00; ascii_field: and shamir for the original poker	[20:50]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1187156 << how exactly would they do this ? by mining a block ? at this diff ?	[20:51]
assbot	Logged on 04-07-2015 16:06:20; punkman: as it is 0.5.3.1/0.5.4 versions will accept blocks of version 1 and 2, allowing shitgnomes to induce forks. what's gonna happen with this?	[20:51]
ben_vulpes	shinohai: wanted to know about your 0.5.3.1's behavior during the phr0k	[20:51]
ben_vulpes	;;later tell pete_dushenski king of the hill: "i sell cars and car backed securities"	[20:51]
gribble	The operation succeeded.	[20:51]
shinohai	Oh it is still syncing	[20:51]
punkman	mircea_popescu: well it costs 25btc, if they can doublespend more than that somewhere...	[20:51]
mircea_popescu	if that costs 25btc then any chip alf wants costs ~50 cents	[20:52]
mircea_popescu	cause that's "what chips cost"	[20:53]
punkman	yeah that was stupid, never mind	[20:53]
mircea_popescu	im not saying it's not possible, obviously.	[20:53]
punkman	but still, any derpy miner can do this	[20:53]
mircea_popescu	best i can discern, this is not only legitimate, but will be the ultimate end situaiton	[20:54]
mircea_popescu	one day, someone WILL mine a version 1 block that WILL stick.	[20:54]
mircea_popescu	the current power ranger derpitude is like america.	[20:54]
mircea_popescu	"for as long as gargle lasts"	[20:55]
ben_vulpes	eh, alf may actually get to the ada impl before a block v1 sticks again.	[20:55]
mircea_popescu	he might.	[20:56]
mircea_popescu	or he might not.	[20:56]
mircea_popescu	management's about doors.	[20:56]
ben_vulpes	howso?	[20:57]
mircea_popescu	"I shook hands with the man I did most of the talking with and they took off... I was a little shooken up but realized I made a big mistake! I forgot to shake the black police detective's hand... shit!!!"	[20:57]
mircea_popescu	heh. these people... adult infants i swear.	[20:57]
mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes not a very good q.	[20:57]
ben_vulpes	d'you mean that management is about "you may do XXX but not YYY" when you say "doors"?	[20:58]
mircea_popescu	no, i mean, sure, maybe x will happen. but then again maybe x won't.	[20:59]
mircea_popescu	like so :	[20:59]
mircea_popescu	http://trilema.com/2015/old-story/#selection-665.1-665.37	[21:00]
assbot	Old story on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1NEzPWy )	[21:00]
*	Xuthus has quit (Quit: Xuthus)	[21:01]
ben_vulpes	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-07-2015#1185611 << i keep a git repo on disk, i think someone else has one of these running in public as well	[21:02]
assbot	Logged on 03-07-2015 19:21:32; mod6: I will work on a patch list and maybe a script later this month. It is a bit hard to follow.	[21:02]
punkman	https://github.com/extempore/real-bitcoin/commits/thermonuke	[21:03]
assbot	Commits · extempore/real-bitcoin · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1HDVz4L )	[21:03]
ben_vulpes	https://github.com/extempore/real-bitcoin << i keep the patches in their own directory	[21:03]
assbot	extempore/real-bitcoin · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1HDVzlg )	[21:03]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1187175 << there is a world under the ground we know little about.	[21:03]
assbot	Logged on 04-07-2015 16:19:51; punkman: 30k student email list? I scraped like 5mil for leet sv startup last year.	[21:03]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1187182 << add lying schmucks to a degree not experienced since kindergarten on pirate island. the f2pool admin's explanation is "we got the bad block from antpool, who we don't know how they got because they told us they only follow us"	[21:04]
assbot	Logged on 04-07-2015 16:41:04; asciilifeform: ;;later tell kakobrekla my current understanding of the ph0rk situation is that your hypothesis re: miners being dumb as bricks is essentially correct...	[21:04]
mircea_popescu	because yes, we're fucktarded enough to not notice what's proposed here is a closed f2pool - antpool loop. they're over there in their own parallel universe.	[21:05]
mircea_popescu	i dunno when it became fashionable to be infantile, but i'm getting pretty sick of it.	[21:05]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1187220 << so are they :D	[21:06]
assbot	Logged on 04-07-2015 17:23:18; trinque: yeah, I'm being hyperbolic	[21:06]
ben_vulpes	ohai punkman	[21:07]
ben_vulpes	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-07-2015#1185652 << i really gotta post ak47.sh to the ml	[21:09]
assbot	Logged on 03-07-2015 19:49:35; shinohai: mod6: if you want another auto.sh, I'll try and help you when I understand this new build xD	[21:09]
mircea_popescu	"Note that the roughly 50% of the network that was SPV mining had explicitly indicated that they would enforce the BIP66 rules. By not doing so, several large miners have lost over $50,000 dollars worth of mining income so far."	[21:10]
mircea_popescu	leaving aside the inept spin they published, why the fuck are we pricing things in dollars.	[21:10]
shinohai	I finally got it set up correctly this evening, it pays to look at things when you aren't fantastically drunk	[21:10]
mircea_popescu	have the decency to use zimbabwe pula or something	[21:10]
ben_vulpes	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-07-2015#1185677 << ediff :P	[21:15]
assbot	Logged on 03-07-2015 19:56:42; trinque: could refine that to "and then presents me a buffer of the diff"	[21:15]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-07-2015#1185238 << lol asciilifeform check out how studious this guy is	[21:15]
assbot	Logged on 03-07-2015 15:30:34; scoopbot_revived: Hits and misses of Ted "The Unabomber" Kaczynski. http://www.contravex.com/2015/07/03/hits-and-misses-of-ted-the-unabomber-kaczynski/	[21:15]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-07-2015#1185240 << where the fuck was "blasphemy" ever illegal.	[21:16]
assbot	Logged on 03-07-2015 15:44:14; assbot: Iceland makes blasphemy legal - BBC News ... ( http://bit.ly/1UhMCDq )	[21:16]
mircea_popescu	dude i grew up sheltered in communist romania.	[21:16]
williamdunne	How old are you MP?	[21:16]
mircea_popescu	bout 35	[21:17]
williamdunne	Oh that makes sense.	[21:18]
williamdunne	Lovely potato monument celebrating it	[21:18]
mircea_popescu	huh ?	[21:18]
williamdunne	The revolutionary potato	[21:19]
williamdunne	http://www.bucharestdailyphoto.com/photos/2009/09/IMG_9113.JPG	[21:19]
shinohai	>mfw I see a guy named "popescu" on the fbi wanted list.	[21:19]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1NEB48g )	[21:19]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-07-2015#1185320 << incidentally, twelve generations of peasants died in a pool of their own blood to get ownership over the fucking tools, as a precursor to over the land and eventually their life.	[21:19]
assbot	Logged on 03-07-2015 17:45:53; pete_dushenski: punkman: ah yes, how farmers don't own the tools of their trade. sad story, that.	[21:19]
mircea_popescu	these idiots gave it all back because they gotta be jwz.	[21:19]
mircea_popescu	no place on earth was ever such an openm insult to the human spirit as north america is these days.	[21:20]
mircea_popescu	except, perhaps, for africa. again.	[21:20]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-07-2015#1185329 << except cheaper to adapt the yard to the robot, as in all examination markets. so you get those round cultivated fields with a pillar in middle etc.	[21:21]
assbot	Logged on 03-07-2015 17:48:44; decimation: actually I would pay good money for a robot that could wonder through a yard and pull weeds	[21:21]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-07-2015#1185391 << they were, after all, jews	[21:23]
assbot	Logged on 03-07-2015 17:57:51; ascii_field: this is amply described in the literature	[21:24]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-07-2015#1185395 << ceausescu did exactly this. if police found you oin the street and you had no place of employment, you'd get a beating and get force-sent to either vocational prison-school if underage or work camp if overage.	[21:25]
assbot	Logged on 03-07-2015 17:58:57; trinque: pete_dushenski: I had this notion regarding the bums all over portland, that someone should take them to nearby farms for day labor in exchange for meals, showers, and somewhere to be warehoused at night.	[21:25]
*	ascii_modem (~asciilife@200.sub-70-208-130.myvzw.com) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[21:25]
mircea_popescu	this horrible trampling of rightrs and liberties resulted in a romania with absolutely no bums, and moreover, in the anedcodtic situation where i picked up a cab from the train station	[21:25]
mircea_popescu	and the cab driver was looking at this bum laying down	[21:25]
mircea_popescu	and he told me that he was an orphan, and that he got put by the commieus through the above grinder, and now he has a family and owns his car.	[21:26]
mircea_popescu	and i agree it's a pity nobody cares enough to beat up that bum.	[21:26]
mircea_popescu	so there we go.	[21:26]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-07-2015#1185400 << he got you there you know.	[21:27]
assbot	Logged on 03-07-2015 18:00:02; pete_dushenski: ascii_field: you buying a case of z80s or pogos is reallocating capital	[21:27]
*	ascii_modem has quit (Remote host closed the connection)	[21:27]
mircea_popescu	even not counting the nsa etc ; pogo is a capital good.	[21:27]
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mircea_popescu	!up ascii_modem	[21:28]
-assbot-	You voiced ascii_modem for 30 minutes.	[21:28]
*	assbot gives voice to ascii_modem	[21:28]
ascii_modem	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-07-2015#1187759 << mno, capital (tm) shits money	[21:28]
assbot	Logged on 05-07-2015 00:23:01; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-07-2015#1185400 << he got you there you know.	[21:28]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-07-2015#1185407 << plox to review the original discussion on the original list. http://trilema.com/2013/digging-through-archives-yields-gold/#selection-113.0-113.416	[21:29]
assbot	Logged on 03-07-2015 18:04:12; funkenstein_: only in so much as farmers and homeowners accept their counterfeits	[21:29]
assbot	Digging through archives yields gold on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1NEBNpS )	[21:29]
mircea_popescu	ascii_modem you're not going to redefine terms of art now, are you ?	[21:29]
ascii_modem	iirc classic sense ?	[21:29]
mircea_popescu	capital goods produce value. all there is to them.	[21:29]
ascii_modem	i.e. my pants arent capital	[21:29]
mircea_popescu	pogo is not your pants.	[21:30]
mircea_popescu	as much as running your own server is controlling a capital good. not a very significant one, but that's a quantitative discussion	[21:30]
mircea_popescu	arguably intelligence is similarly of a capital good, and you have enough control of it to, for instance, contribute here. other people do not have this luxury - for instance because they agreed some employer owns it all.	[21:31]
mircea_popescu	so... no.	[21:31]
ascii_modem	sorta like gravity. yes, sufficiently far from solar system, anyone can become a 'stellar body' if you shove him out airlock	[21:31]
mircea_popescu	i thought you reasoned in categories.	[21:31]
ascii_modem	aha	[21:32]
mircea_popescu	what's this "quantity is the determinator of quality" approach then ?	[21:32]
ascii_modem	original thread was re 'who is wageslave and who - capitalist'	[21:32]
mircea_popescu	see ag3nt_zero, syllogism. reductio ad absurdum. present the op with a dilemma, so he can either explain what was misunderstood or correct what he misunderstood	[21:32]
mircea_popescu	well sure, original thread.	[21:33]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-07-2015#1185411 << they aren't always performing. most of them can't perform worth a shit. nevertheless, the sexual exploitation of women is an important element of mental health, including for the women in question, for women in general, for men in general...	[21:34]
assbot	Logged on 03-07-2015 18:06:43; mats: BingoBoingo: 'There's no regulation', '... and it's really difficult to believe that the girls who were crying when they're being "raped" are always acting and performing'	[21:35]
mircea_popescu	so i fully expect this to get "regulated".	[21:35]
ascii_modem	pogo & the other junk is in different category than 'capital proper' in my mind because none of this stuff 'pays for itself'	[21:37]
ascii_modem	as, e.g., fisherman's boat does	[21:37]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-07-2015#1185445 << to hear him say it, he's like that beat up chimp in the experiments	[21:37]
assbot	Logged on 03-07-2015 18:14:11; ascii_field: what family i've left is in it too	[21:37]
mircea_popescu	ascii_modem so far seemingly phuctor does ?	[21:37]
ascii_modem	it's a pet, apparently	[21:38]
*	SuchWow has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)	[21:39]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-07-2015#1185497 << what's the job mostly, looking at deep frozen pork bellies ?	[21:39]
assbot	Logged on 03-07-2015 18:25:12; pete_dushenski: public health inspector :)	[21:39]
ascii_modem	for those who don't know - mircea_popescu contributed the bix phuctor runs on	[21:40]
ascii_modem	box	[21:40]
mircea_popescu	comes out of nsa accts tho. eventually.	[21:40]
ascii_modem	aha	[21:40]
ascii_modem	so not clear how 'pays for self'	[21:40]
mircea_popescu	thus ?	[21:40]
ascii_modem	rather, running on battery like other things	[21:41]
mircea_popescu	take the other side. i approved expenditure of ~7.5 btc on advertising as ceo of s.mg ; and of ~.25 (unreported, maybe next month i remember to put it in) on s.nsa.	[21:41]
mircea_popescu	the roi for the first was 0, the roi for the 2nd not 0.	[21:42]
mircea_popescu	how then, not "pay for self" ?	[21:42]
ascii_modem	in other nyuz, i'm sitting under the megaphallus in washington, and blinking eye of sauron	[21:44]
mircea_popescu	send our most heartfelt regards	[21:44]
ascii_modem	traditional holiday here. and there is a spybot in the cloud. which is lulzy because there is a huge sign, 'no smoking'-style, with crossed-out chopper	[21:45]
ascii_modem	'no droning'	[21:45]
ascii_modem	pet saw it too, after i pointed where to look	[21:47]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-07-2015#1185519 << nowhere remarkable. why ?	[21:49]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27600 @ 0.0005477 = 15.1165 BTC [+] {2}	[21:49]
assbot	Logged on 03-07-2015 18:37:57; mats: ;;later tell dignork http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-02-2015#1025687 << this ever go anywhere?	[21:49]
mats	contemplating hiring someone to work on it but it appears dignork has made much progress	[21:51]
mircea_popescu	eh, these hirign someone to work on things deals never work out.	[21:51]
ascii_modem	shamir poker?!?	[21:52]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-07-2015#1185643 << this works ?	[21:52]
assbot	Logged on 03-07-2015 19:43:30; funkenstein_: "southern pride" spamming qntra in an effort to discredit the site methinks	[21:52]
mats	yeah, ascii_modem	[21:53]
mats	i'd ordinarily do all the work myself but carpal tunnel is a srs rate limiter	[21:53]
ascii_modem	if kbd is your bottleneck, yerdoingitwrong	[21:54]
punkman	all that scrolling takes a toll	[21:54]
mats	probably.	[21:54]
ascii_modem	ditto	[21:55]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-07-2015#1185658 << this is not merely a difference of workflow, but a difference of philosophy. we are not interested in automation, we are interested in review and responsibility. the only concern that thing is adressing is that we find a critical bug tomorrow, i want to know who to negrate.	[21:55]
assbot	Logged on 03-07-2015 19:51:29; phf: mod6: sorry, i wasn't really prepared to explain what i mean, i thought you would just grok the request as an obvious one. we probably just have very different workflows	[21:55]
ascii_modem	if you have megatonne of code, yerdoingitwrong	[21:55]
ascii_modem	i don't even care what domain	[21:55]
punkman	I've never even learned to touchtype properly	[21:56]
mircea_popescu	this follows in the wake of a few threads mostly brought to a head by the opnessl idiocies you might wish to review phf if you've not seen them before.	[21:56]
ascii_modem	me neither	[21:56]
mircea_popescu	ascii_modem harem, actually. "if you have a ton of babes, doing it wrong"	[21:56]
mircea_popescu	(truth!)	[21:56]
punkman	ascii_modem, oh good, thought it was just me	[21:56]
mircea_popescu	i don't touch type either, not usually.	[21:56]
williamdunne	How comes?	[21:57]
ascii_modem	now i dont look at the buttonz, no	[21:57]
mircea_popescu	touch typing is good if you're going to do straight typing for mintues at a time. i normally do not. i suppose you do not either, need a mouse, a this, a buffer, a that etc.	[21:57]
mircea_popescu	most of the benefit of touch typing comes from not moving your "frame" above the kbd.	[21:57]
mircea_popescu	hands on/hands off touch typing is nonsense.	[21:58]
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*	assbot removes voice from ascii_modem	[21:58]
mircea_popescu	ascii_modem that's how i end up with stuff like ;; and xse in my history file :D	[21:58]
*	ascii_modem has quit (Remote host closed the connection)	[21:59]
williamdunne	The main issue I have with touch typing is occasionally my fingers landing in the wrong order or similar derpery	[21:59]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-07-2015#1185688 << either that on a website-y thing or have an option for a new subscriber to get whole shebang ?	[22:00]
assbot	Logged on 03-07-2015 20:01:45; jurov: i have nothing against publishing the mailbox	[22:00]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-07-2015#1185700 << this is a fact.	[22:01]
assbot	Logged on 03-07-2015 20:06:15; ascii_field: mats: iirc danielpbarron established that it ~has~ to use ssd	[22:01]
mircea_popescu	howlee sheit caught up on logs.	[22:04]
mircea_popescu	monstrous task.	[22:04]
punkman	lots of log forks	[22:05]
mircea_popescu	lol	[22:06]
williamdunne	https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3c579i/yesterdays_fork_suggests_we_dont_need_a_blocksize/	[22:11]
assbot	Yesterday's fork suggests we don't need a blocksize limit : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1JFXckv )	[22:11]
williamdunne	Tardstalk citation	[22:11]
mircea_popescu	sigh.	[22:14]
mircea_popescu	how about it suggests we should stfu.	[22:15]
williamdunne	burrnnnn	[22:16]
williamdunne	The blocksizes at 1mb require broken mining, but bigger blocks will do... something	[22:16]
williamdunne	Oh god	[22:16]
williamdunne	my brain hurts	[22:16]
punkman	I like this style of annotation http://underscorejs.org/docs/underscore.html	[22:21]
assbot	underscore.js ... ( http://bit.ly/1JFXTdF )	[22:21]
*	Vexual (~Vexual@unaffiliated/vexual) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[22:22]
*	WolfGoethe has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)	[22:24]
trinque	punkman: probably a good format to annotate bitcoind	[22:27]
punkman	https://github.com/brynbellomy/otis	[22:27]
assbot	brynbellomy/otis · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1JFYhci )	[22:27]
punkman	if anyone wants to crank some js	[22:27]
punkman	and a similar python thing, https://pypi.python.org/pypi/pyccoon/0.1.0	[22:30]
assbot	pyccoon 0.1.0 : Python Package Index ... ( http://bit.ly/1JFYyM8 )	[22:30]
punkman	god there's a lot of these	[22:30]
williamdunne	re: Brazillian currency rigging	[22:35]
williamdunne	https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/3c3ymy/fifteen_of_the_worlds_largest_banks_are_under/cssfbvs	[22:35]
williamdunne	>I think the punishment for trading currencies should include execution in certain cases.	[22:35]
assbot	thats_bone comments on Fifteen of the world's largest banks are under investigation on suspicion of rigging the Brazilian currency, antitrust watchdog Cade said on Thursday, the first such probe in one of the busiest foreign exchange markets globally. ... ( http://bit.ly/1JFYYSK )	[22:35]
williamdunne	wut	[22:35]
*	trinque (~undata@unaffiliated/undata) has left #bitcoin-assets	[22:35]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6650 @ 0.00054197 = 3.6041 BTC [-]	[22:36]
*	trinque (~undata@unaffiliated/undata) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[22:36]
*	assbot gives voice to trinque	[22:37]
williamdunne	Reddit is just a goldmine for retards	[22:44]
williamdunne	https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/3c3ymy/fifteen_of_the_worlds_largest_banks_are_under/css2ka0	[22:44]
assbot	sovereign_citizen comments on Fifteen of the world's largest banks are under investigation on suspicion of rigging the Brazilian currency, antitrust watchdog Cade said on Thursday, the first such probe in one of the busiest foreign exchange markets globally. ... ( http://bit.ly/1JFZDUn )	[22:44]
williamdunne	>Remember the Libor scandal and interest fixing cartel?	[22:44]
williamdunne	>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libor_scandal	[22:44]
williamdunne	>That was massive and NO ONE WENT TO JAIL. No one will go to jail for this either unless there is massive protesting. I would like to see people attack bankers with as much fervor as they attack ISIS. Bankers are literally worse than ISIS.	[22:44]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3587 @ 0.00054771 = 1.9646 BTC [+]	[22:47]
decimation	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1187182 < asciilifeform I recall a similar conversation we had > http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=25-06-2015#1175692	[22:51]
assbot	Logged on 04-07-2015 16:41:04; asciilifeform: ;;later tell kakobrekla my current understanding of the ph0rk situation is that your hypothesis re: miners being dumb as bricks is essentially correct...	[22:51]
assbot	Logged on 25-06-2015 04:44:07; decimation: knows more about how to pile asics than how to program bitcoind	[22:51]
decimation	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1187304 < why? it's not like their political positions are secret?	[22:54]
assbot	Logged on 04-07-2015 20:48:14; danielpbarron: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-07-2015#1186129 << a tape recorder is the one thing I forgot to bring (I had specifically prepared one for the event but forgot to pack it) -- the mere act of having such a device around free-staters would probably trigger them into a rage	[22:54]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16500 @ 0.00054793 = 9.0408 BTC [+] {2}	[22:55]
decimation	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1187330 < amen. the 'cost' imposed by the version increment has hardly any benefit	[22:55]
assbot	Logged on 04-07-2015 21:00:18; mircea_popescu: here's what's the idea : after botching the soft fork, it seems illogical that the entire bip system should continue at all.	[22:55]
decimation	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1187537 < yeah but meanwhile the shitgnomes dig deeper. surely there's a point where they muck things up? or perhaps there's nothing to be done about it.	[23:08]
assbot	Logged on 04-07-2015 22:40:26; mircea_popescu: until we know exactly wtf to do about relayers, about miners now, there is no point. the prototype's still prototypin'.	[23:08]
decimation	on the other hand, the shitgnomes are doing a great job at discrediting themselves	[23:11]
*	Guest58663 has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)	[23:12]
*	mius_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)	[23:18]
mod6	292k+	[23:24]
decimation	asciilifeform: of mild interest from last night, apparently 'sipa' (Pieter Wuille) wrote a secp256k1 replacement library, apparently in attempt to ditch openssl https://github.com/bitcoin/secp256k1	[23:28]
assbot	bitcoin/secp256k1 · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1gh7cnU )	[23:28]
decimation	he doesn't advertise it as complete or fully functional yet	[23:28]
*	ascii_modem (~asciilife@200.sub-70-208-130.myvzw.com) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[23:34]
williamdunne	Meant to be notably faster too, no?	[23:35]
decimation	yeah	[23:35]
*	ascii_modem has quit (Remote host closed the connection)	[23:36]
*	ascii_modem (~asciilife@200.sub-70-208-130.myvzw.com) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[23:36]
*	Vexual is now known as upmodem	[23:37]
*	upmodem is now known as Vexual	[23:37]
decimation	!up Vexual	[23:37]
*	assbot gives voice to Vexual	[23:37]
*	ascii_modem has quit (Remote host closed the connection)	[23:37]
mircea_popescu	decimation the lib in question was discussed in log at the time too	[23:40]
decimation	I looked for it	[23:40]
mircea_popescu	it's the result of a for-profit venture of some sort, gmaxwell went on a reddit rampage explaining hopw they "found bugs" and how great the entire process is etc	[23:41]
mircea_popescu	it wasn't that great or anything, but it doesn't have much competition either.	[23:41]
mircea_popescu	obv bitcoin can't continue pulling in random code. this is an assault on sense, as far as we're concerned, and an assault on their turf as they perceive it, as far as the pr group is concerned.	[23:42]
mircea_popescu	so yeah, check it out, agreement!	[23:42]
decimation	now, as I pointed out with midnightmagic, it strikes me as backwards to develop a replacement before describing a spec	[23:44]
mircea_popescu	more importantly there's doubts as to the suitability of the curve in question etc	[23:45]
decimation	well, yeah that's a matter for a mathematiciansssss5	[23:48]
decimation	stupid irissi	[23:48]
*	ascii_modem (~asciilife@200.sub-70-208-130.myvzw.com) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[23:49]
decimation	!up asciilifeform	[23:49]
*	assbot gives voice to asciilifeform	[23:49]
decimation	doh	[23:49]
decimation	!up ascii_modem	[23:49]
*	assbot gives voice to ascii_modem	[23:49]
mircea_popescu	!s libsecp256k1 from:mircea	[23:50]
assbot	4 results for 'libsecp256k1 from:mircea' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=libsecp256k1+from%3Amircea	[23:50]
mircea_popescu	finally fouind it	[23:50]
ascii_modem	mircea_popescu: if could switch ecdsa curves, could as well have rsa!	[23:50]
*	Pierre_Rochard (~Pierre@unaffiliated/pierre-rochard/x-3593157) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[23:50]
ascii_modem	ifwisheswerehorses	[23:50]
ascii_modem	!s tinyecc	[23:51]
assbot	0 results for 'tinyecc' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=tinyecc	[23:51]
*	assbot gives voice to Pierre_Rochard	[23:51]
decimation	ah I was searching for "secp256k1"	[23:51]
mircea_popescu	you'd have to pick something for your ada port. and there's not atm any way to pick.	[23:51]
decimation	stupid stemmer	[23:51]
mircea_popescu	if in a decade rsa is still as strong as today...	[23:51]
decimation	yeah it seems like we are stuck with secp256k1 anyway	[23:51]
mircea_popescu	imagine, forty years later, still stands. what else in computin ?	[23:51]
ascii_modem	i'd pick my head	[23:51]
mircea_popescu	your head can't be p2p	[23:51]
mircea_popescu	neways, ima go play lalala	[23:52]
ascii_modem	for ada port	[23:52]
ascii_modem	it'd need no deps	[23:52]
ascii_modem	but std compliant gcc	[23:52]
ascii_modem	if done by honest people	[23:53]
ascii_modem	plant it on bare metal.	[23:55]
*	ascii_modem has quit (Remote host closed the connection)	[23:56]

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