Forum logs for 02 Aug 2015

Sunday, 24 November, Year 11 d.Tr. | Author: Mircea Popescu

*	Now talking on #bitcoin-assets	[11:04]
*	Topic for #bitcoin-assets is: http://bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://log.bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://bash.bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://blogs.bitcoin-assets.com	[11:04]
*	Topic for #bitcoin-assets set by kakobrekla!~kako@unaffiliated/kakobrekla at Wed Mar 5 16:58:12 2014	[11:04]
*	[freenode-info] if you're at a conference and other people are having trouble connecting, please mention it to staff: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp	[11:04]
-assbot-	Welcome to #bitcoin-assets. To get voice (ie, to be able to speak), send me "!up" in a private message to get an OTP. You must have a sufficient WoT rating. If you do not have a WoT account or sufficient rating, try politely asking one of the voiced people for a temporary voice.	[11:04]
mircea_popescu	gernika wd.	[11:05]
*	#bitcoin-assets :Cannot send to channel	[11:05]
*	assbot gives voice to mircea_popescu	[11:06]
mircea_popescu	gernika wd.	[11:06]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-08-2015#1221808 << ok, but the broad point is still "technology makes it easier". sure. to what ? to whatever. sure.	[11:13]
assbot	Logged on 02-08-2015 01:30:55; asciilifeform: (which was, that www makes things very easy for the censor, much easier at any rate than rounding up 10,000 books to burn)	[11:13]
mircea_popescu	is it easier for censor to censor documents if documents are deliberately created in easy to censor ways ? sure.	[11:14]
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mircea_popescu	is it easier for anti-censor to create documents in formats not easy to censor ? sure.	[11:14]
mircea_popescu	etc.	[11:14]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-08-2015#1221813 << how is a 32 bit machine going to build for another platform if one doesn't deliberately put the "build for other platforms" code in there!	[11:15]
assbot	Logged on 02-08-2015 01:32:00; asciilifeform: multilib not relevant!	[11:15]
mircea_popescu	obviously c will compile for anything. but not by itself!	[11:15]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-08-2015#1221837 << on and off.	[11:17]
assbot	Logged on 02-08-2015 01:47:14; asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you still getting ^this on your nodes ?	[11:17]
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ben_vulpes	phf: http://paste.lisp.org/display/152826 << nifty!	[11:23]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1IxKwpO )	[11:23]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-08-2015#1221842 << exactly. the behaviour itself can not be reproduced over lans.	[11:24]
assbot	Logged on 02-08-2015 02:11:18; asciilifeform: it also ~never~ happens between directly-connected nodes on my lan, for example.	[11:24]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-08-2015#1221858 << how the fuck does this work, 1k per sqft omfg.	[11:25]
assbot	Logged on 02-08-2015 04:02:50; decimation: http://www.trulia.com/real_estate/Aspen-Colorado/ "Average price per square foot for Aspen CO was $909, an increase of 23% compared to the same period last year."	[11:25]
mircea_popescu	euro housing costs ~1-2 keuro per sqmp! that's a fucking degree of magnitude.	[11:26]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40800 @ 0.00054026 = 22.0426 BTC [+] {3}	[11:27]
ben_vulpes	http://www.trulia.com/real_estate/portland-oregon	[11:28]
ben_vulpes	ehuhueeuhe	[11:28]
ben_vulpes	gaze ye and weep	[11:28]
mircea_popescu	i have no idea why anyone would do this.	[11:29]
mircea_popescu	i point and laugh at the locals six digit price delusions for real estate in the dead centre of ba.	[11:30]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20050 @ 0.00052554 = 10.5371 BTC [-]	[11:33]
*	SuchWow\|2 is now known as SuchWow	[11:33]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24900 @ 0.00054773 = 13.6385 BTC [+] {3}	[11:34]
mircea_popescu	kakobrekla i just looked at online.net. nowhere does it advertise hosting illegal content. i'm not giving them any money.	[11:45]
kakobrekla	hosting illegal content?	[11:45]
mircea_popescu	to qualify for any payments, a host must prominently advertise hosting illegal content.	[11:45]
mircea_popescu	yep.	[11:45]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10150 @ 0.00055022 = 5.5847 BTC [+]	[11:45]
mircea_popescu	i will not give money to derps who follow usg.	[11:45]
kakobrekla	where does phoenixnap do that pls show	[11:46]
mircea_popescu	you understand how grandfathering works right ?	[11:46]
mircea_popescu	in any case : i will not pay any isp that fails to advertise ignoring "law".	[11:47]
kakobrekla	you are worried about dmca?	[11:47]
kakobrekla	i dont see phoenixnap doing it, so whatevs.	[11:47]
mircea_popescu	i am worried about living in a world which contains isps that follow "law"	[11:47]
mircea_popescu	and yes, it's a difficult principle to apply uniformly, and yes i don't universally managing atm. nevertheless, i'm not taking stuff back to the dumbass world. and yes i think it'd be just grand if everyone follows it wherever possible.	[11:49]
kakobrekla	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=08-05-2015#1125737 < funny.	[11:49]
assbot	Logged on 08-05-2015 21:46:38; asciilifeform: i guess my red-hot doug lenat k001 w4r3z stays on kako's box, l0l	[11:49]
mircea_popescu	it's purely a pr thing. got to get people used to the idea that they MUST say they despise the usg.	[11:50]
mircea_popescu	to get paid.	[11:50]
mircea_popescu	none of this "people agree, rule of law, bla bla" nonsense any more.	[11:51]
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kakobrekla	this is all based on nothing.	[11:51]
mircea_popescu	people happen to agree alright, it's just the other way.	[11:51]
kakobrekla	dont worry, you can say its just too much css.	[11:51]
mircea_popescu	kakobrekla you're a nihilist. everything's ultimately based on nothing as fatr as you're concerned, if you're willing to take the time and look.	[11:51]
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chetty	it's purely a pr thing. got to get people used to the idea that they MUST say they despise the usg.// just the usg? lots of other places seem equally worthy of it	[11:58]
mircea_popescu	nah, generally speaking.	[11:58]
mircea_popescu	gotta get back to the good old 80s "if you follow the law you're unfuckable, an idiot and get lost"	[11:58]
mircea_popescu	it's after all how the soviets ended.	[11:58]
mircea_popescu	lulz of today : if one googles for bulletproof hosting stuff in the last month, the first 5 results are this dumbass trendmicro "report", and the rest references to it. like : "A new report from TrendLabs -- the research arm of security company Trend Micro -- uncovers the existence of what it calls 'Bulletproof Hosting Services' (BPHSs) which provide"	[12:04]
mircea_popescu	fancy that, trendmicro discovered the hole in the donut!	[12:04]
asciilifeform	obviously c will compile for anything. but not by itself! << my point was that i put a complete kit in there. that will build x86_64 on whatever you like, x86-32, cray, pdp11.	[12:15]
mircea_popescu	o i c	[12:16]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: fortunately there is wildlife that lives on usg-free net, whose turds one can follow to find the forest. i speak, of course, of crapware artists and sp4mz0rz	[12:19]
mircea_popescu	of course.	[12:20]
mircea_popescu	but forget the discreet bs.	[12:20]
mircea_popescu	mainstream all the things.	[12:20]
asciilifeform	100% mainstream in ru	[12:20]
mircea_popescu	myeah.	[12:20]
mircea_popescu	100% mainstream anywhere outside of "my mother had me with a retard" land.	[12:21]
asciilifeform	in other nyooz, incitatus still synced (along with the other two)	[12:26]
asciilifeform	from a closer look, it appears to have been running into swap earlier	[12:26]
asciilifeform	what is really needed is moar s00p3rn0d3 l1f3styl3!!! nodez	[12:27]
asciilifeform	like dulap	[12:27]
asciilifeform	though, strangely enough, the best-performing (e.g., fewest 'black hole' issues) node in my fleet thus far has been 'zoolag', which is sitting under my desk, on residential fiber	[12:28]
asciilifeform	50 connections, presently (dulap - 40; incitatus - 32)	[12:29]
mircea_popescu	how long it's been on is the largest factor for that metric.	[12:31]
asciilifeform	not only	[12:31]
asciilifeform	but the 'black hole' effect, also.	[12:31]
asciilifeform	https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3fi92w/how_important_are_individual_full_nodes_and_how << check out the philippinos	[12:31]
assbot	How important are individual full nodes, and how much does it benefit the network per individual? : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1E2oyu2 )	[12:31]
asciilifeform	apparently - still in business	[12:32]
mircea_popescu	doh.	[12:32]
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asciilifeform	ben_vulpes, mod6, mircea_popescu, et al: http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/net.cpp#0526 << interestingly, these appear to be dead code. what were they meant for ?	[12:44]
assbot	Satoshi 0.5.3.1/src/net.cpp ... ( http://bit.ly/1IDYpY1 )	[12:44]
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asciilifeform	trinque's gcov paint these a very deep red (0 runs)	[12:45]
asciilifeform	and indeed, i see no graph path to them	[12:45]
asciilifeform	speaking of which, anyone ever get solrodar's graph into a readable form ?	[12:45]
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ben_vulpes	asciilifeform: mircea_popescu did iirc, via gimp	[12:49]
ben_vulpes	but i never did.	[12:49]
mircea_popescu	yea.	[12:49]
asciilifeform	if it was what i saw, that wasn't readable !	[12:50]
asciilifeform	fucking ball of yarn	[12:50]
mircea_popescu	...	[12:50]
mircea_popescu	how would i decide that if.	[12:50]
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asciilifeform	well i just gave an example. can you tell from that picture whether it is theoretically possible for the 'subscription' routines to be called?	[12:51]
ben_vulpes	readable, renderable...	[12:51]
trinque	asciilifeform: that thing's a bit jacked	[12:51]
trinque	split the results between the build dirs and the ourlibs dir	[12:51]
*	asciilifeform used grep to answer the question, unambiguous 'no'	[12:51]
trinque	I'm going to give that thing a few more shoves today and see if I can get it all in one tree	[12:51]
asciilifeform	trinque: gcov is useful but doesn't prove code to be alive or dead, can only suggest	[12:52]
asciilifeform	(wallet, for instance, would look entirely 'dead' on a gcov run where such was not used)	[12:52]
ben_vulpes	i don't see any usage of anysubscribed at least, asciilifeform	[12:52]
trinque	yep, makes sense	[12:52]
asciilifeform	the place i'm trying to go with this is: dead code ought not be in The Book, except - in the one and only case where it pre-dates gavin et al, it could be shoved into an appendix	[12:53]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform let's keep it simple. have you loaded the svg in gimp and examined the picture painted.	[12:53]
asciilifeform	link to latest version of this?	[12:54]
mircea_popescu	i don't have one. lesee	[12:54]
mircea_popescu	!s from:mircea gimp	[12:54]
assbot	8 results for 'from:mircea gimp' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=from%3Amircea+gimp	[12:54]
asciilifeform	http://cascadianhacker.com/bitcoin/callgraph ?	[12:55]
assbot	Index of /bitcoin/callgraph/ ... ( http://bit.ly/1IDZBuh )	[12:55]
mircea_popescu	http://cascadianhacker.com/bitcoin/callgraph/bitcoin-dot.svg	[12:55]
assbot	Call graph ... ( http://bit.ly/1IDZFds )	[12:55]
asciilifeform	yeah that was what i saw	[12:56]
asciilifeform	incidentally, it is worthless if flattened into a bitmap	[12:57]
asciilifeform	gotta be viewed in a graphical www browser, so you can search	[12:57]
trinque	http://getspringy.com/demo.html	[12:57]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1IDZVZX )	[12:58]
asciilifeform	and, after you do this, aside from the nightmare of intersecting lines and bubbles light-years away from their ~only~ antecedent, etc,	[12:58]
trinque	would be nice to grab a node and shake	[12:58]
asciilifeform	you will see things like: 'CNode :: PushVersion' is connected! to whom?? to 'CNode :: CNode'.	[12:59]
trinque	http://marvl.infotech.monash.edu/webcola/ << also looks neat	[12:59]
assbot	cola.js: Constraint-based Layout in the Browser ... ( http://bit.ly/1IE0141 )	[12:59]
asciilifeform	this conveys ~zero~ useful information. in particular, the fact that 'CNode :: PushVersion' is a deadcode island is no longer visually apparent.	[12:59]
trinque	http://marvl.infotech.monash.edu/webcola/examples/browsemovies.html << in particular	[12:59]
assbot	Incremental exploration of a large graph ... ( http://bit.ly/1IE03c9 )	[12:59]
asciilifeform	the above observation is not a criticism of solrodar's work, but of the catastrophically inadequate existing tooling	[13:00]
mircea_popescu	mkay. well....	[13:02]
trinque	so... what about those JS things	[13:02]
asciilifeform	trinque: the 'springy' thing is quite like the molecular strain sims i've used	[13:02]
asciilifeform	except there is no reason to make it a clicking and dragging game	[13:03]
trinque	yeah, best to just have some layout algo make it readable	[13:03]
asciilifeform	can give the 'atoms' electrostatic-style charge, so they repel, and the bonds - 'strain', so they contract	[13:03]
trinque	clicking collapsed nodes to expand might be helpful	[13:03]
asciilifeform	then simulated-anneal.	[13:03]
trinque	yeah	[13:03]
asciilifeform	at any rate, i originally wanted this as a wall poster	[13:04]
asciilifeform	so it would have to be very clean to justify losing search	[13:04]
trinque	http://marvl.infotech.monash.edu/webcola/examples/dotpowergraph.html	[13:04]
assbot	Grid Layout ... ( http://bit.ly/1HiecpW )	[13:04]
trinque	that helps my eyes a bit	[13:04]
ben_vulpes	;;later tell phf http://paste.lisp.org/display/152828#1 << do forgive my ignorance, but what am i missing about converting the "command" into a string? (Adlai, asciilifeform, your eyes'd be appreciated too)	[13:04]
gribble	The operation succeeded.	[13:04]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1HieixP )	[13:04]
trinque	would need a legend or bigger boxes	[13:04]
asciilifeform	ew	[13:04]
asciilifeform	'help the mouse find the cheese'	[13:05]
asciilifeform	no thx	[13:05]
trinque	lol	[13:05]
asciilifeform	the most critical thing re: the graph is probably to make it reflect ~only function calls~ rather than class membership	[13:06]
asciilifeform	the latter is ~entirely irrelevant~ to a call graph!	[13:06]
punkman	http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3fggjj/someone_has_broadcast_a_transaction_with_20000/	[13:07]
assbot	Someone has broadcast a transaction with 20,000 inputs! : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1IE0PG5 )	[13:07]
asciilifeform	why the fuck are 0-valued outputs spendable !?	[13:10]
asciilifeform	(or even valid in a block)	[13:11]
asciilifeform	https://www.f2pool.com/pushtx << interesting	[13:12]
punkman	plenty of pages like that	[13:13]
punkman	https://bitbucket.org/pankkake/pushtx	[13:14]
assbot	pankkake / pushtx — Bitbucket ... ( http://bit.ly/1Hig6XM )	[13:14]
asciilifeform	punkman: the linked page is connected to a live pool. and demands password (presumably subscriptions are sold?)	[13:14]
asciilifeform	reminiscent of what mircea_popescu suggested, but with moar duct tape and chicken wire	[13:14]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-08-2015#1222073 << this is seriously, deeply 'un-lispy' code. it explicitly reads fields!!! what you oughta do is define the 'message' structure in the most minimal way you can think of, and then write a routine that snarfs any structure defined that way, whatever it may be.	[13:16]
assbot	Logged on 02-08-2015 16:01:52; ben_vulpes: ;;later tell phf http://paste.lisp.org/display/152828#1 << do forgive my ignorance, but what am i missing about converting the "command" into a string? (Adlai, asciilifeform, your eyes'd be appreciated too)	[13:16]
ben_vulpes	well how'd i know without putting myself up for the cane	[13:17]
asciilifeform	then you will have a jewel in your toolbox that you can use 20 years from now	[13:17]
asciilifeform	as it is, you have... perl.	[13:17]
asciilifeform	http://www.cliki.net/binary-types << most famous example	[13:18]
assbot	CLiki: Binary-types ... ( http://bit.ly/1IE26g9 )	[13:18]
ben_vulpes	this has come up before, and i had forgotten.	[13:18]
asciilifeform	https://github.com/frodef/binary-types << mirror	[13:18]
assbot	frodef/binary-types · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1IE28om )	[13:18]
asciilifeform	and yes, it seems like 50x more work, at first glance	[13:18]
asciilifeform	because... it is.	[13:19]
asciilifeform	but the whole point of a computer is that you do the 50, so you don't have to do the 50,000 over next 20 years.	[13:19]
asciilifeform	re: binary-types, see esp. the mirror link, for example	[13:20]
asciilifeform	it has definition of 'elf' (unix executable) format parser	[13:20]
ben_vulpes	am reading, yes	[13:20]
trinque	hm yeah, that's much cooler; it's a lot like you'd describe a grammar for a parser generator	[13:22]
trinque	well fuck, it is that	[13:22]
trinque	lol	[13:22]
*	trinque finds coffee	[13:22]
ben_vulpes	(but ascii - i /can/ mutate in place, therefore i /must/!)	[13:24]
asciilifeform	wai wat	[13:24]
ben_vulpes	just a joke	[13:25]
ben_vulpes	"we can, therefore we must"	[13:25]
asciilifeform	http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3236870273259433@naggum.net.html << obligatory	[13:25]
assbot	Re: two questions about strings - Naggum cll archive ... ( http://bit.ly/1IE2ZW8 )	[13:25]
asciilifeform	(mainly last paragraph)	[13:26]
asciilifeform	;;isup trilema.com	[13:26]
gribble	trilema.com is down	[13:26]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu ^	[13:27]
mircea_popescu	aha.	[13:27]
mircea_popescu	shoulda read it yesterday, what is this.	[13:27]
mircea_popescu	you read when you feel like ?!?!?!	[13:27]
asciilifeform	prolly more of the usual	[13:28]
punkman	every ;;isup trilema.com feeds the troll	[13:28]
asciilifeform	the troll lives on sunshine	[13:29]
asciilifeform	and big fat duffels of benjie from usg	[13:29]
mircea_popescu	lol	[13:29]
mircea_popescu	srsly, there;s nothing new there as opposed to yest.	[13:29]
trinque	"Common Lisp is a big-city language. Spit out the hayseed, pronounce "shit" with one syllable and "shotgun" with two." << wahahaha	[13:29]
asciilifeform	except that i linked to mircea_popescu's pgp key in a post	[13:30]
asciilifeform	and clicked (by mistake) just now, noticed that no one can see it.	[13:30]
trinque	people who don't like "mean" people have no appreciation for comedy	[13:30]
mircea_popescu	aha.	[13:30]
mircea_popescu	well, it exists as a signed thing in the hands of the conference participants.	[13:30]
asciilifeform	aha.	[13:30]
punkman	how do you pronounce shotgun with more/less syllables than two?	[13:31]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: i wrote a short post last night, linking to an archive.today of the phuctored list, and exhorting the folks whose names appear therein to write	[13:31]
asciilifeform	(doubt it will have any effect. perhaps ought to consider spamming them?)	[13:31]
mircea_popescu	fuck em, why would you care/bother ?	[13:31]
scoopbot_revived	Doing "God's Work" http://www.contravex.com/2015/08/02/doing-gods-work/	[13:31]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: would like to find what they have in common ?	[13:32]
mircea_popescu	you're coming from tyhis weird place where we're all possessed of functioning brains here on this great internet and stuff. wtf.	[13:32]
asciilifeform	what, ~nobody on the list~ has brain ?	[13:32]
asciilifeform	not one ?	[13:32]
mircea_popescu	they have in common being either dumb per se or else i nthe crosshairs of the manacling-with-dumb cannon.	[13:32]
mircea_popescu	neither class wants to talk to you about it, for different reasons.	[13:33]
asciilifeform	i suppose now that their names have been 'googleable' for months, and still no reaction - this conclusion is nearly inescapable	[13:33]
mircea_popescu	something like that.	[13:33]
punkman	asciilifeform: did you email all of the already? I remember some mention of emails	[13:33]
mircea_popescu	you got one schmuck exercising his right to be idiotic is the sumall.	[13:33]
asciilifeform	punkman: nope. and it would almost certainly vanish in their spam filter, also.	[13:33]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: yeah i recall. was it anvin? iirc	[13:34]
mircea_popescu	some anon.	[13:34]
asciilifeform	ah that one	[13:34]
mircea_popescu	because hey, that's the way to do things.	[13:34]
asciilifeform	that one didn't even sign his name!	[13:34]
mircea_popescu	i'll take it a notch further : none of them had anything to sign. ever.	[13:34]
mircea_popescu	this includes the pgp mailing list.	[13:34]
asciilifeform	'go to the place - where? no one knows, and bring me back that - which? no one knows' (tm)	[13:35]
mircea_popescu	crazy as it may sound.	[13:35]
asciilifeform	wai wut	[13:35]
asciilifeform	as in, nothing ever changed from their signature being on it or not ?	[13:35]
mircea_popescu	not.a.single.entry.on.your.list.ever.hand.any.legitimate.use.for.encryption.	[13:35]
asciilifeform	well no shit.	[13:35]
mircea_popescu	the impersonated ones, i mean.	[13:36]
mircea_popescu	they just have no business here.	[13:36]
asciilifeform	idk, the 'update signing key' people	[13:36]
asciilifeform	had at least in their own planet, a use	[13:36]
mircea_popescu	it's a case of, 12 yo girly playing a game she doesn't understand with toys that aren't really toys. except online and with boys.	[13:36]
asciilifeform	and some of the maths students may have had something or other to say to someone or other	[13:36]
mircea_popescu	heh.	[13:36]
asciilifeform	and the folks releasing code (anvin? a few others?) did sign it	[13:37]
mircea_popescu	i bet you, dollars to donuts, that they signed it for "wouldn';t it be cool if" reasons. an d the thing doesn't actually work / is not full lengthj /.trivially defeated on some op sec hole or other.	[13:37]
asciilifeform	what i mean to say is, the folks selected for this special delicacy treat, were selected presumably for reasons ?	[13:37]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: iirc linus checks sigs	[13:38]
asciilifeform	(of anvin et all)	[13:38]
*	mircea_popescu suddenly realised, sometimes last night, that the deep reason nothing works is simply that - all of it was made on a lark.	[13:38]
mircea_popescu	not for serious.	[13:38]
asciilifeform	but how often? between him and the gods. i wouldn't know	[13:38]
mircea_popescu	orly ? i thought he just dumps code someone emailed him intop the kernel.	[13:38]
asciilifeform	l0l	[13:39]
mircea_popescu	for srs.	[13:39]
asciilifeform	(if he did, by all rights 2015 ought to have happened in 2005, or 1995... ?)	[13:39]
mircea_popescu	i vaguely recall some incident where precisely this happened.	[13:40]
mircea_popescu	i suppose i should stfu if i can't link it.	[13:40]
*	asciilifeform also recalls	[13:40]
asciilifeform	but it may have involved freebsd	[13:40]
mircea_popescu	anyway : there's this entire pretend culture, and it goes very deep. dunno how to properly illustrate it in its meta splendor.	[13:40]
mircea_popescu	but i'm nothing oif not persistent, so lemme try.	[13:40]
asciilifeform	http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/12/15/openbsd_backdoor_claim << rumour	[13:40]
assbot	FBI 'planted backdoor' in OpenBSD • The Register ... ( http://bit.ly/1HilwSq )	[13:40]
asciilifeform	and the 'pretend culture' at least in as far as it concerns public key crypto, was a very deliberate plank of the 'cypherpunk' folks - 'let's use crypto for every piece of shit, to defeat traffic analysis'	[13:41]
mircea_popescu	case A : kid sees girl in bar. waits for moment when no-one's looking around 3am, kloinks her in the head with bottle, drags her dark alley outside, shreds her clothes and her virginity.	[13:41]
mircea_popescu	case B : kid sees girl in bar, works up his courage until 3am, eventually approaches her and explains that he's into kinky stuff. which works out, because she always dreamed about being raped, so they meet in dark alley and have some great sex.	[13:42]
mircea_popescu	and i posit that the entire fucking thing, "from the ground up", is B. all of it.	[13:42]
mircea_popescu	"hey, woiuldn't it be cool if you could like... encrypt shit ?" "why ?" "so you cxould be like... a secre agent!"	[13:43]
mircea_popescu	then they went about roleplaying their super-secret-agent kink for a while	[13:43]
mircea_popescu	and then forgot about it.	[13:43]
mircea_popescu	guitar hero for a different generation.	[13:44]
trinque	sounds like the problem with letting most people define themselves on their own	[13:44]
mircea_popescu	possibly the last time anyone did anything for serious with computers was in tyhe 80s.	[13:45]
trinque	you're going to get fake representations out of most, if it cuts it with the people looking at them	[13:45]
mircea_popescu	since then, everyone's just been trying to salvage utility out of the kids' roleplaying	[13:45]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: industry exists	[13:45]
trinque	I was fumbling for that idea the other day re: internal representations of identity	[13:45]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform does it.	[13:45]
asciilifeform	i know, this sound like 'martians live among us'	[13:45]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: recall that pdp emulator fella ?	[13:45]
asciilifeform	somebody's buying that.	[13:45]
asciilifeform	folks with beards as long as my arm.	[13:46]
mircea_popescu	aha. exactly.	[13:46]
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mircea_popescu	those are hobbists not industrialists.	[13:46]
asciilifeform	on whom the remnants of 'the west' stand, like on elephants on turtles.	[13:46]
asciilifeform	not hobbyists. those use 'open source' emu	[13:46]
asciilifeform	this one is intended for industrial plant	[13:46]
asciilifeform	which still runs, yes, on pdp	[13:46]
mircea_popescu	as someone's hobby.	[13:47]
asciilifeform	(as do a great many american .mil systems, of the kind which still work)	[13:47]
mircea_popescu	the "industry", such as it is, is fucking google, holding hackathons	[13:47]
asciilifeform	no.	[13:47]
mircea_popescu	trying to feed themselves out of used condoms left behind in dark alleys	[13:47]
asciilifeform	the industry, in actuality, is grey beards maintaining code written in 1973, which keeps the water mains pressurized and the lights on.	[13:47]
asciilifeform	and the condom injection molds going	[13:48]
asciilifeform	etc	[13:48]
mircea_popescu	aha. what's your definition of "industry" ?	[13:48]
asciilifeform	easy: the ox	[13:48]
asciilifeform	not the flies on his horns.	[13:48]
mircea_popescu	because i suspect you go by ops whereas i go by financials./	[13:48]
mircea_popescu	yea. okay.	[13:48]
asciilifeform	if you go by financials, then the 'industry' is the u.s. fed.	[13:48]
mircea_popescu	pretty much.	[13:48]
asciilifeform	which prints the payola	[13:48]
*	assbot gives voice to shinohai	[13:48]
asciilifeform	and then gives it out to demented bums	[13:49]
mircea_popescu	alrighty then. that was my sad storyt for today.	[13:49]
shinohai	http://www.bbspot.com/News/2006/08/paris-hilton-tinkerbell-linux.html	[13:49]
assbot	BBspot - Paris Hilton Releases Tinkerbell Linux ... ( http://bit.ly/1Hinhz7 )	[13:49]
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mircea_popescu	do not expect a girl with a collar is actually a slave - she probably thought it looks good for her facebook ; do not expect someone with a pgp key is a lord - they probably were just trying to impress someone.	[13:49]
asciilifeform	Slutware Linux << win	[13:49]
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asciilifeform	iirc the 'cypherpunk' folks thought of themselves as anonymous soldiers trying to pave the way for 'lords' to use key without insta-flagging	[13:50]
shinohai	LOL @ slutware	[13:51]
shinohai	I should push a slackware release	[13:51]
trinque	is that poor guy still maintaining it?	[13:51]
kakobrekla	heh, re pdp, apparently http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/06/19/nuke_plants_to_keep_pdp11_until_2050/	[13:53]
assbot	Nuke plants to rely on PDP-11 code UNTIL 2050! • The Register ... ( http://bit.ly/1Hiobf3 )	[13:53]
kakobrekla	i guess end of world is 2051	[13:54]
trinque	jurov: how hard is it to dump maildir mail files from mailman?	[13:54]
trinque	I wrote a python script last night that turds together maildir mail from the txt dumps, but it's a hack at best	[13:55]
trinque	at least there are sigs; I don't really care about having identical mail headers to the originals	[13:55]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6580 @ 0.00055022 = 3.6204 BTC [+]	[14:01]
asciilifeform	i will add, btw, that yes, i know that 'code from 1973' is not 'maintained' in the modern idiot bottomless-barrel-of-bug sense	[14:02]
asciilifeform	instead, it is, e.g., transplanted to a 486 using the emulator mentioned earlier, handwritten by a fella with prolly a metre-long beard	[14:03]
asciilifeform	because if it were not - the water stops coming out of the tap	[14:03]
asciilifeform	kakobrekla: it was officially proclaimed, at one point, that the sole remaining american land-based nuke delivery vehicle, 'minuteman', is 100% vax-powered	[14:04]
asciilifeform	(in the rocket, a miniaturized variant; on land - the real thing)	[14:05]
asciilifeform	'PDP-11 assembler coders are hard to find' << what a pile of shit	[14:06]
*	asciilifeform raises hand	[14:06]
asciilifeform	but no, the unspoken qualification is the two-metre-long beard	[14:06]
asciilifeform	and yes, i can understand why.	[14:06]
asciilifeform	the thing that ~must~ be understood is that the ancient iron is maintained entirely, wholly, as a shield against microshitification	[14:07]
asciilifeform	when a pc runs reactor - yes, that is the end.	[14:08]
asciilifeform	yes, let's have winblowz, poettering, drepper, chinese capacitors, in reactor room.	[14:08]
asciilifeform	it'll be grand.	[14:08]
jurov	yes they do	[14:09]
asciilifeform	just let me know the day before, so i can catch the last plane out.	[14:09]
kakobrekla	out to where ?!	[14:09]
jurov	in these parts most reactors reportedly run on win2k	[14:09]
asciilifeform	'away from here'	[14:09]
kakobrekla	no such place.	[14:09]
asciilifeform	http://www.kafka.org/index.php?aid=172 << obligatory	[14:09]
assbot	The Kafka Project \| English \| My Destination (transl. Alex Flores) ... ( http://bit.ly/1HiriDN )	[14:09]
kakobrekla	everywhere i go, im here.	[14:10]
jurov	trinque it's easy, if you're subscribed you can publish it yourself	[14:12]
jurov	i will, too. eventually.	[14:12]
trinque	jurov: I missed a bunch of messages due to that tls thing, so I'm trying to grab all those	[14:18]
jurov	http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/btc-dev.mbox.xz this one is from july 3	[14:24]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1HiuFKK )	[14:24]
trinque	cool! thanks!	[14:25]
trinque	that actually covers everything I needed, I think	[14:25]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform i guess that's a point yea.	[14:29]
mircea_popescu	in these parts most reactors reportedly run on win2k << why not me while at it.	[14:38]
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jurov	me is not properly certified	[14:42]
jurov	can't even imagine what noise would austrians do if a reactor nearby would be allowed to run on something homebrew	[14:44]
jurov	everything had to be modernized by siemens & co..	[14:45]
kakobrekla	>I cooked up a multi-user general ledger system based on this hardware in '79. My client was a rural Iowa accountant who (what a prophet!) was afraid of hacks, so he insisted it NOT be compatible with anything else on the planet. So, though NorthStar DOS was way ahead of it's time, I had to ditch it. I burned my own boot EPROMs, wrote the whole thing using Ashley's assembler. You just can't do that anymore.	[14:45]
kakobrekla	hehe	[14:46]
kakobrekla	same problem in 79	[14:46]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5960 @ 0.00052554 = 3.1322 BTC [-] {2}	[14:57]
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mircea_popescu	in other news, https://i.imgur.com/TCjVzuQ.jpg	[15:22]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1MFXj0g )	[15:22]
shinohai	LOL	[15:26]
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shinohai	LOL BingoBoingo haz to update his article: http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/02/world/cecil-the-lion-brother-jericho-alive/	[15:53]
assbot	Cecil the lion's brother Jericho is alive - CNN.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1HiMDgk )	[15:53]
punkman	"Reportedly, Koko enjoys seeing human nipples and will request her female caregivers to show them to her on occasion. This has resulted in sexual harassment lawsuits by caregivers who have felt pressured by Patterson to show their nipples to Koko against their will. Attorney Jody Weiner, who previously represented KoKo in licensing agreements, writes that he should have recognized warning signs of a sex scandal. "	[15:56]
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BingoBoingo	shinohai: Nope. Jericho it turns out is not actually Cecil's brother. CNN is just listening to any crank who calls in.	[15:59]
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shinohai	I had hoped you could churn out another story based on that xD	[15:59]
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assbot	[HAVELOCK] [BTR] 2949 @ 0.001135 = 3.3471 BTC [+]	[16:15]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11565 @ 0.00052268 = 6.0448 BTC [-]	[16:18]
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mod6	interestingly, incitatus synced and stayed synced today << ahh ok, thanks for the heads up	[16:26]
shinohai	I m syncing the dark side's wallet, keeps crashing with CDB: Error -30974, can't open database	[16:28]
mircea_popescu	!up eric	[16:58]
-assbot-	You voiced eric for 30 minutes.	[16:59]
*	assbot gives voice to eric	[16:59]
mircea_popescu	!up livegnik	[16:59]
-assbot-	You voiced livegnik for 30 minutes.	[16:59]
*	assbot gives voice to livegnik	[16:59]
mircea_popescu	!up roasbeef	[16:59]
-assbot-	You voiced roasbeef for 30 minutes.	[16:59]
*	assbot gives voice to roasbeef	[16:59]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform> can give the 'atoms' electrostatic-style charge, so they repel, and the bonds - 'strain', so they contract << this is actually a pretty great idea. and then run iterations over the thing until stable.	[17:01]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform> so it would have to be very clean to justify losing search << technically speaking, needing "search" is a symptom that you've not yet learned it.	[17:02]
mircea_popescu	ie, fit it in head.	[17:02]
decimation	17:42 <+jurov> everything had to be modernized by siemens & co.. < jurov, but why does 'modernize' mean 'run on winblows 2k?'	[17:03]
decimation	where's the german alternative to microsoft?	[17:03]
jurov	ask siemens	[17:04]
mircea_popescu	siemens is "german" in the sense tsipras is "greek" and so on. absolutely nothing to do.	[17:05]
decimation	agilent - runs spectrum analyzers on winblows. rohde & schwarz - same	[17:05]
decimation	it's not like they sell enough of them for 'people to come to expect'	[17:06]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-08-2015#1222307 << no shit. and if i'd learned it, wouldn't need the diagram.	[17:07]
assbot	Logged on 02-08-2015 19:59:28; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> so it would have to be very clean to justify losing search << technically speaking, needing "search" is a symptom that you've not yet learned it.	[17:07]
mircea_popescu	anyway, re punkman's reddit link - the tards miss the fruit and focus on the pit of that thing, as usual.	[17:07]
mircea_popescu	(or even valid in a block) << they are not valid. they are spendable for reasons that have to do with what the protocol says, ie, unintentionally.	[17:09]
asciilifeform	well sure	[17:09]
jurov	decimation: perhaps you missed how my info how gigawatts of steam turbines are simulated and projected ... in excel	[17:10]
jurov	(i mean, when they are installed, hopefully not when they are built. but not sure on that, either)	[17:11]
mircea_popescu	or my info as to how the entire fucking house of cards came down chiefly bewcause some idiots were doing copula calculations	[17:11]
mircea_popescu	also in excel	[17:11]
mircea_popescu	(gauss copula, look into that sometime. if you want "pseudoscience that burned the world", global warming's nothing, witch hunts are nothing, this thing ruioned trillions)	[17:11]
asciilifeform	jurov: the thing is, nothing is built from the ground up (except for the circus mentioned earlier just now by mircea_popescu) with 'excel'. the infrastructure is running on fumes	[17:11]
asciilifeform	and i'd bet good money that there is, somewhere deep inside that win2k reactor, a real computer	[17:12]
asciilifeform	largely autonomous from the shitputer	[17:12]
asciilifeform	(which in turn is mostly a display of gui dials and gauges)	[17:12]
jurov	like in iran?	[17:12]
asciilifeform	jurov is almost certainly thinking of the refinery	[17:13]
asciilifeform	where yes, winblowz	[17:13]
asciilifeform	this is because the poor saps were stuck buying new	[17:13]
asciilifeform	can't get the pdp new.	[17:13]
asciilifeform	buy new, get 'siemens', run moar winblowz.	[17:13]
jurov	um..er.. how is half of europe gonna get a whiff of pdp?	[17:14]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-08-2015#1222312 << aha, international komy000nity!!!	[17:14]
assbot	Logged on 02-08-2015 20:02:14; mircea_popescu: siemens is "german" in the sense tsipras is "greek" and so on. absolutely nothing to do.	[17:14]
asciilifeform	jurov: ask the folks with the intact sov reactors	[17:14]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform your idea of nuke plants is more akin to a UP's big boy control hatch. this is not how they work, whole shit's run in java these days. for that matter - remember the recent airbus which had all 4 engines stop because counter smash issues ?	[17:14]
scoopbot_revived	Line betting on BitBet, July 2015 http://thewhet.net/2015/line-betting-on-bitbet-july-2015/	[17:14]
jurov	^	[17:15]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: 1) nothing realtime-reactive runs in java 2) the counter overflows after what was it, 8 months of continuous engine time ????	[17:15]
mircea_popescu	i tell you. there are no professionals left. all children posing for the mirror.	[17:15]
mircea_popescu	a world of play-pretend like they're adults and doing things	[17:15]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform if i recall, maxint / 100 it was.	[17:15]
jurov	and i strongly suspect the computers of yore aren't what alf imagines, either. have them eat a text with arbitrary linelengths and see	[17:15]
mircea_popescu	;;calc 8 30 24 * 3600 * 100	[17:16]
gribble	2073600000	[17:16]
mircea_popescu	seems about right	[17:16]
decimation	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-05-2015#1118863 http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-05-2015#1118867	[17:16]
assbot	Logged on 03-05-2015 03:39:28; decimation: asciilifeform: I have a friend who is an old graybeard EE, been working on actual circuitry since the 80's	[17:16]
assbot	Logged on 03-05-2015 03:40:09; decimation: he said recently a sea change has come with kids coming out of school; they want to specify massive cpu, memory for very simple micro-controllers so they can run java	[17:16]
asciilifeform	jurov: go feed it the text	[17:16]
deedbot-	accepted: 1	[17:16]
mircea_popescu	jurov or with locales :D	[17:16]
asciilifeform	but jurov isn't wrong, per se, there probably ~is~ a reactor somewhere handled by four java boxes trying to cover for each other's garbagecollector pauses	[17:16]
mircea_popescu	a nuclear reactor is a kind of flywheel	[17:17]
mircea_popescu	you got plenty of time.	[17:17]
asciilifeform	and you can tell from a distance when a sector of civilization has been consumed by the cancer	[17:17]
chetty	feed the computer anything, with front panel switches	[17:17]
asciilifeform	!s flashlight crash	[17:17]
assbot	4 results for 'flashlight crash' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=flashlight+crash	[17:17]
jurov	all out email and else woes are due to text originally defined as "interspersed by cr in shorter intervals than any buffer wherever gets() is used"	[17:17]
jurov	all else is binary by definition	[17:17]
asciilifeform	jurov: don't confuse the retardation of unix&descendants for 'the real computer'	[17:18]
mircea_popescu	i suspect this is actually the correct definition of "text" for computing.	[17:18]
decimation	you guys realise we are gonna have to respecify email too right?	[17:18]
asciilifeform	'the real computer' was and is programmed in asm ab initio - yes, from entirely empty space; for every task.	[17:18]
mircea_popescu	decimation how about respecifying email as null.	[17:18]
jurov	asciilifeform: and your pdp example is?	[17:18]
asciilifeform	ab initio.	[17:18]
decimation	mircea_popescu: sounds good to me. file transfer a .txt	[17:18]
asciilifeform	respecifying email as null << win	[17:19]
mircea_popescu	imagine if every so often i had to click here to see if there's new lines	[17:19]
mircea_popescu	then click on the lines indioviduallky	[17:19]
mircea_popescu	FUCKING HELL WHO DID THIS	[17:19]
decimation	actually you could argue that 'email' as a concept is 'let's pretend we are working at the post office'	[17:19]
mircea_popescu	^	[17:19]
decimation	not 'let's build a system for reliably transmitting information'	[17:19]
mircea_popescu	it makes as much sense as drawing horses on a car.	[17:19]
mircea_popescu	it had its importance selling technology to the retards.	[17:20]
mircea_popescu	but other than that, it's as useful as "wysiwyg" or "point and click" or "just works!"	[17:20]
mircea_popescu	nonsensical gimmicks of the ilk of "stop fucking your sister or else santa won't bringf you presents" and "eat your veggies so you can overpower your sister and stick it in her"	[17:20]
asciilifeform	l0l	[17:21]
decimation	much of it stems from "need to hustle to make money, use what's on the shelf and make it fit"	[17:21]
decimation	I was watching a 'banking' show on the BBC the other day. it featured a young afghan who managed to make it from goat-fuck-stan to the uk welfare state	[17:22]
decimation	he complained that in afghanistan, everything is free - but people are poor and live in mud huts. they envy the english for their warm houses &etc. but now he works 12 hour days to try to make rent, pay bills - and never has time to enjoy his warm house	[17:23]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: see also the idiocy of 'skeumorphism'	[17:23]
decimation	because nothing is free	[17:24]
asciilifeform	decimation: this and precisely this, is why i laugh at people who discuss compensation in terms of money	[17:24]
decimation	yeah, it would be interesting for someone to interview people exactly like this: grew up orc, came to 'first world'	[17:24]
asciilifeform	~i don't give a fuck~ what you're paid, how much of it do you get to ~keep~, and how much time do you get to sit in the warm house and drink tea and not think of work	[17:25]
decimation	later in the episode he managed to somehow get an offer from the uk govt - he could buy his flat for 20k pounds	[17:25]
asciilifeform	very few orcs have the brains to even consider this formula	[17:25]
decimation	but the minimum loan from the bank is 25k	[17:25]
decimation	he was like 'what am I gonna do with an extra 9k and I have to pay interest!"	[17:26]
decimation	the rest of the show featured idiots with 25k credit card balances trying 'refinance'	[17:27]
asciilifeform	l0l	[17:27]
asciilifeform	must have been filmed a while ago, these figures would probably have an extra trailing zero today	[17:27]
asciilifeform	at least where i live.	[17:27]
decimation	http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b061xf9j/the-bank-a-matter-of-life-and-debt-3-lending < can watch here if you manage to obtain uk ip	[17:27]
assbot	BBC iPlayer - The Bank: A Matter of Life and Debt - 3. Lending ... ( http://bit.ly/1M5qb2h )	[17:27]
asciilifeform	back to the earlier observation, the attachment orcs have to the myth of 'the west' is a truly religious affair	[17:28]
decimation	yeah you could tell the guy was disappointed with his situation	[17:28]
asciilifeform	not even being planted nose-first into the genuine pile of shit, has any curative effect	[17:28]
asciilifeform	he will probably try to make his way 'moar west'	[17:29]
decimation	http://www.breitbart.com/london/2014/07/09/illegal-immigrants-exploit-channel-tunnel-closure/ < for example here	[17:29]
assbot	Illegal Immigrants Exploit Channel Tunnel Closure - Breitbart ... ( http://bit.ly/1M5qfz5 )	[17:29]
asciilifeform	to, say, canada, or usa.	[17:29]
*	assbot removes voice from eric	[17:29]
*	assbot removes voice from livegnik	[17:29]
*	assbot removes voice from roasbeef	[17:29]
asciilifeform	where he can work 14 hour days for a flat with six of his kind	[17:29]
asciilifeform	(or get into the jail, where, approximately, same)	[17:29]
decimation	somehow people from Eritrea are convinced that if they only make it to the uk they can supports their entire families!	[17:30]
decimation	not realizing the complete chumpatron they are entering	[17:30]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=28-07-2015#1214974 << see also	[17:30]
assbot	Logged on 28-07-2015 04:36:46; asciilifeform: 'hot', in this case, being the world of the coolie, and 'cold' being the world he aspires to enter (or at least send his children to, oxbridge and harvaprinceyaleton)	[17:30]
decimation	usa was kinda like this in the 1800's	[17:31]
jurov	yet no one goes back to afganistan	[17:31]
decimation	east coast cities swelled with immigrants trying to get some monies	[17:31]
decimation	but at least at that time they could buy a cheap farm in kansas	[17:32]
decimation	jurov: good point	[17:32]
asciilifeform	jurov: warm house is addictive. or whole 'west' circus would voluntarily rebuild afganistan at home	[17:32]
mircea_popescu	decimation> yeah, it would be interesting for someone to interview people exactly like this: grew up orc, came to 'first world' << ie, half of romania under 50yo.	[17:32]
asciilifeform	(they are anyway, but slowly)	[17:32]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16425 @ 0.00052268 = 8.585 BTC [-]	[17:32]
mircea_popescu	prolly 1/4 of russia or so, cause they're orc-er.	[17:32]
mircea_popescu	and re the myth of the west, there was that trilema article linked from a recent one, "florida and other places".	[17:33]
mircea_popescu	tis a sad thing.	[17:33]
asciilifeform	jurov: it is the very meaning of the word 'addiction' as commonly used. (no one speaks of being 'addicted' to air, sunlight, etc)	[17:33]
mircea_popescu	jurov actually plenty of people do go back to afghanistan.	[17:34]
asciilifeform	if you want things that are ultimately doing you in in double time, and aren't even particularly fun - that is it	[17:34]
mircea_popescu	heck, 50% of the 1st generation immigrants return home with the loot, marry and live there.	[17:34]
mircea_popescu	the retards - stay.	[17:34]
mircea_popescu	the rest just loot and leave.	[17:34]
asciilifeform	when there is what to loot..	[17:34]
mircea_popescu	which is ~why~ the libertard open border stuff doesn't work.	[17:34]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform for as long as china takes the coupons...	[17:34]
asciilifeform	(in more recent times, the 'loot' is in the form of bait, handed out monthly at welfare office)	[17:34]
decimation	it stands a prayer of working if someone gets nothing for 'just showing up'	[17:35]
mircea_popescu	no, it does not.	[17:35]
decimation	but that implies nobody gets paid just to exist	[17:35]
mircea_popescu	because the people you want don't want you, and the people you want you nobody wants.	[17:35]
decimation	yeah, there's some raw human truth there	[17:35]
mircea_popescu	myeah.	[17:35]
decimation	http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/28/us-finland-immigration-idUSKCN0Q22JJ20150728 < finland is going through this now	[17:36]
assbot	Thousands rally in Finland against lawmaker's anti-immigration remark	[17:36]
mircea_popescu	there hasn't yet in the history of mankind been a wealth marriage that was happy. and "free immigraton" is notexceptional just because large.	[17:36]
asciilifeform	decimation: they envy sweden its great mosques	[17:36]
decimation	some politicians suggesting that maybe it's not good to import africa wholesale in one generation isn't such a great idea	[17:36]
trinque	against racism lol	[17:36]
decimation	of course they are hateful racists for suggesting it	[17:36]
mircea_popescu	finnish chicks want the cock, what.	[17:37]
mircea_popescu	i can see it.	[17:37]
mircea_popescu	what';d you have them to, wait on rpietilla ?	[17:37]
asciilifeform	l0l!	[17:37]
jurov	is there any successful example of resisting immigration?	[17:37]
asciilifeform	Ze Supernoud Lifestyle	[17:37]
asciilifeform	jurov: japan.	[17:37]
asciilifeform	resists, to the bitter end.	[17:38]
asciilifeform	like real men.	[17:38]
decimation	^ true	[17:38]
decimation	except they are not reproducing	[17:38]
asciilifeform	wake me up when they reach 1900 level and still drop	[17:38]
mircea_popescu	there's no resisting immigration. vienna fell. byzantium fell.	[17:38]
trinque	that's the economic side's fault	[17:38]
asciilifeform	what do we need the extra people post-1900 for anyway	[17:38]
decimation	where's that rammstein 'amerika' song	[17:38]
asciilifeform	^	[17:38]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-07-2015#1215885	[17:39]
assbot	Logged on 29-07-2015 02:37:56; shinohai: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxroiTRg7Tg	[17:39]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: 'there is no resisting ants and flies, giraffe fell, elephant fell'	[17:39]
mircea_popescu	quite so.	[17:39]
asciilifeform	but not from flies.	[17:39]
mircea_popescu	of course not.	[17:40]
mircea_popescu	the idea that immigration is the problem is braindamage of the level of thinking the maggots made the corpse.	[17:40]
mircea_popescu	somehow the immigrants weren't the problem back when azns were washing gold miner's shirts for a penny	[17:40]
mircea_popescu	and the irish fought the blacks for who's gonna polish knob tonight	[17:40]
asciilifeform	the only shred of logic in there is that the maggots sometimes do feast on living flesh	[17:40]
mircea_popescu	never.	[17:40]
mircea_popescu	in fact, fly maggots used to clean wounds.	[17:41]
mircea_popescu	they like live flesh about as much as you like birdshit.	[17:41]
asciilifeform	yes. and removed when they start to eat the living flesh	[17:41]
mircea_popescu	"the humans sometimes feast on the bird shit". i guess ?	[17:41]
asciilifeform	(they will, from lack of what else, eventually)	[17:41]
decimation	http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/19/dirt-poor-haitians-eat-mu_n_168339.html	[17:41]
assbot	Dirt Poor Haitians Eat Mud Cookies To Survive ... ( http://bit.ly/1M5qGJx )	[17:41]
asciilifeform	decimation: i suppose they haven't any accordions to boil	[17:42]
mircea_popescu	is this more jenkem journalism from the jenkem journals ?	[17:42]
decimation	lol yeah where's jenkem	[17:42]
mircea_popescu	huffpo huffed it.	[17:42]
mircea_popescu	hence huffpopo.	[17:42]
decimation	no look it's in real media too http://www.boston.com/news/world/articles/2008/01/31/haitians_trick_empty_bellies_with_dirt_cookies/	[17:42]
assbot	Haitians trick empty bellies with dirt cookies - The Boston Globe ... ( http://bit.ly/1M5qKZK )	[17:42]
asciilifeform	actually, iirc washpost huffed it	[17:42]
asciilifeform	in the '90s	[17:42]
asciilifeform	'dirt cookie' was a favourite in chinese cultural revolution	[17:42]
asciilifeform	(there is ~some~ nutritious matter in the earth)	[17:43]
mircea_popescu	and vitamins!	[17:43]
mircea_popescu	thing is - there's more nutritious matter in shit.	[17:44]
mircea_popescu	especially if a rich dude shat it.	[17:44]
mircea_popescu	(for the obvious reason - what do you think earth is after all. microorganism digested shit)	[17:44]
decimation	re:immigrants -> it seems to me that there is a difference between "we have empty land that someone could show up and till" and "one more derp could survive on the scraps here"	[17:44]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: usually in china they put it through a pig first. but yes.	[17:44]
mircea_popescu	decimation the difference is whether you run pinkerton or welfare.	[17:45]
decimation	https://suite.io/vic-sanborn/3des2zr	[17:45]
assbot	Night-Soil Men, the Human Waste Collectors of Georgian London ... ( http://bit.ly/1M5qXvX )	[17:45]
asciilifeform	^ was big business esp. in the brief time when piss was boiled for nitrate	[17:45]
mircea_popescu	most of classical london consisted of a majority of "recyclers".	[17:45]
mircea_popescu	and a minority of tradesmen, moving goods on an abstract mercator map	[17:46]
asciilifeform	world's biggest unsurprise. of what is there most in a city? shit	[17:46]
mircea_popescu	well, these days it's "shitheads"	[17:46]
decimation	now we are too rich to care, apparently, just dig up more fossilized shit	[17:46]
asciilifeform	obligatory >> http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-03-2014#552444	[17:46]
assbot	Logged on 09-03-2014 01:03:00; asciilifeform: 'Industry is the only true source of wealth, and there was no industry in Rome. By day the Ostia road was crowded with carts and muleteers, carrying to the great city the silks and spices of the East, the marble of Asia Minor, the timber of the Atlas, the grain of Africa and Egypt; and the carts brought nothing out but loads of dung. That was their return cargo. London turns dirt into	[17:46]
mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo "as was the case with this one." << link missing ?	[17:50]
mircea_popescu	"the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia authorized a search warrant" << for the record, this is not how it works. a judge authorises it, and im nary too enchanted by this tendency of individuals to hide behind imaginary shields.	[17:51]
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decimation	asciilifeform: was thinking about that 'pcb card' problem. what if you terminated each trace into its own tank circuit, and then 'probed' the circuit with a vna?	[17:55]
decimation	each tank would resonate at a particular frequency, or not, if trace is not blown. could terminate into bnc	[17:56]
*	danielpbarron (~dpb@ool-18b94803.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[17:56]
mircea_popescu	if you're going to do this why not measure inductance/harmonics/etc.	[17:56]
mircea_popescu	end up with a weird sort of ADC	[17:57]
decimation	yeah that's what I'm suggesting (complex impedance - part of which is inductance)	[17:57]
decimation	if one is clever, one could make the tank circuit out of pure pcb trace, making it cheaper. 'crosstalk' could be a problem though	[17:58]
jurov	inb4 "multilevel ROM" by placing resistors	[17:59]
mircea_popescu	ya lol	[17:59]
decimation	yeah but placing/removing components is a pain and expensive	[18:00]
mircea_popescu	what would be really great would be if your thing could somehow be made out of glass	[18:00]
*	rdymac has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)	[18:00]
mircea_popescu	you buy 6x6 inch panbes of glass and crash them	[18:00]
mircea_popescu	thatr's your secret key	[18:00]
decimation	heh	[18:00]
decimation	the breakage geometry you mean?	[18:01]
mircea_popescu	you plug the thing in whatever.	[18:01]
mircea_popescu	and measure its remaining connections	[18:01]
decimation	ah I see what you mean.	[18:01]
mircea_popescu	much better than a pcb, if can be had.	[18:01]
asciilifeform	decimation: crosstalk and rf	[18:02]
mircea_popescu	so you know... some people generate their keys at the firing range. some people have a designated bat. some people make a new key after each domestic argument/divorce	[18:02]
decimation	asciilifeform: sure, but those could be managed	[18:02]
*	danielpbarron is now known as dpb_temp	[18:02]
asciilifeform	decimation: look into why analogue computer went away.	[18:02]
decimation	I get it, but I just wanna store some values, not compute derivatives	[18:03]
asciilifeform	the 'crushed glass secret key' was picked up by academitards as 'physically unclonable function'	[18:03]
asciilifeform	but it doesn't do any good unless there are 2 of'em (at minimum)	[18:03]
asciilifeform	(goes without saying that it is only good for symmetric crypto)	[18:03]
asciilifeform	break a glass rod.	[18:04]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform just an exotic way to rng, is in the end what he was trying to build	[18:04]
mircea_popescu	"take a pcb and scratch it"	[18:04]
asciilifeform	then sure	[18:04]
mircea_popescu	necessarily goes to "crush glass pane"	[18:04]
asciilifeform	just don't be surprised when it stops working when it is wet/cold/hot in the room	[18:04]
asciilifeform	or if different room	[18:04]
mircea_popescu	yawell.	[18:04]
asciilifeform	(see mircea_popescu's old 'dragonfly' article based on my conf-II chat)	[18:04]
asciilifeform	very often, folks forget just how much analogue strange there is in the world, that is kept (mostly) out of their digital computer	[18:05]
decimation	actually that gives me another idea: http://www.capturedlightning.com/frames/lichtenbergs.html	[18:05]
assbot	What are Lichtenberg Figures, and how are they Made? ... ( http://bit.ly/1OJ4XVi )	[18:05]
decimation	could make a lichtenberg figure key and use a camera to distill down into bits	[18:06]
asciilifeform	decimation: what is the point of it	[18:07]
asciilifeform	once 'distilled to bits', that'd be your key	[18:07]
decimation	asciilifeform: yeah I was thinking about generating key in a seperate machine and then 'hand-carving' the pcb to store key	[18:07]
asciilifeform	the reason why 'physical function' is that it ought to be precisely a ~function~	[18:07]
asciilifeform	that can be used as a one-time pad	[18:07]
asciilifeform	so can 'ask' the glass a 64-bit integer, and get another	[18:07]
decimation	I'm thinking about ways to manage key material that involve physical devices that can be inspected	[18:08]
asciilifeform	and your partner behind enemy lines asks same, and gets same answer.	[18:08]
asciilifeform	decimation: if that's all you want, get a 'sinclair'	[18:08]
BingoBoingo	BingoBoingo "as was the case with this one." << link missing ? << That's a cazalla	[18:08]
decimation	asciilifeform: well, also I want to be reliable	[18:09]
decimation	sinclair uses floppies?	[18:09]
asciilifeform	can use sd card, with a little soldering	[18:09]
asciilifeform	incidentally,	[18:09]
*	asciilifeform has been greatly enjoying http://www.zxdesign.info/book	[18:09]
assbot	The ZX Spectrum ULA: How to design a microcomputer ... ( http://bit.ly/1OJ5wyk )	[18:09]
asciilifeform	it is a priceless tour of 1980s chip design, among other things	[18:09]
decimation	oh I thought they used 6502 like everyone else	[18:10]
asciilifeform	z80	[18:10]
decimation	ah	[18:10]
asciilifeform	the other giant of the '80s	[18:10]
asciilifeform	anyway, the book is about the i/o chip	[18:10]
asciilifeform	not the cpu	[18:10]
asciilifeform	man does not live by cpu alone !	[18:11]
decimation	yeah the 'secret sauce' of the commadore was the video chip	[18:11]
asciilifeform	it was not an era of elusive 'sauces'	[18:11]
asciilifeform	but overall good design	[18:11]
decimation	yes.	[18:11]
asciilifeform	that doesn't reduce to 'xxxx chip'	[18:11]
decimation	based on that 'bil herd' interview, it sounds like the board designers and chip designers worked in same building, with fab!	[18:12]
asciilifeform	and consider also that, of all the toy computers, the one with the singularly worst design in every conceivable way, won.	[18:12]
decimation	because cheap.	[18:12]
asciilifeform	no, WAS NOT CHEAP	[18:12]
asciilifeform	either.	[18:12]
asciilifeform	but bezzle-annointed, yes	[18:13]
decimation	cheaper than s/360	[18:13]
asciilifeform	so it did not matter that it was a stinking pile of shit	[18:13]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52911 @ 0.0005037 = 26.6513 BTC [-] {3}	[18:13]
asciilifeform	wasn't competing with s/360	[18:13]
asciilifeform	but with typewriter.	[18:13]
asciilifeform	and secretary (who did the job 10x better, but...)	[18:13]
decimation	true. people who wanted 'adult' computers in the 80's, had	[18:14]
decimation	or at least could get access to one	[18:14]
asciilifeform	http://www.oldcomputers.net/ibm5150.html << prices	[18:14]
assbot	IBM 5150 Personal Computer ... ( http://bit.ly/1hdODl5 )	[18:14]
asciilifeform	add a zero or so for modern usd.	[18:14]
decimation	yeah my dad paid about $1500 in 1989 dollars for x86 pc... 'epson apex'	[18:15]
asciilifeform	the thing was, in every respect, a 'soviet' production in the stereotypical western sense of the word	[18:15]
asciilifeform	it was made by folks who did not have any reason whatsoever to give a fuck re: quality or cost.	[18:15]
asciilifeform	who ~knew~ that they were winners as soon as they popped out of the womb	[18:15]
asciilifeform	and 'winners', naturally, win	[18:15]
asciilifeform	the ibm pc, recall, was that abomination where they didn't even bother to use dram chips that passed qa	[18:16]
asciilifeform	instead, 'deadbugging' several duds over one another	[18:16]
asciilifeform	to get a close approximation of one working unit	[18:16]
decimation	and yet still cost $3k 1981 dollars!	[18:17]
decimation	about $8k 2015 dollars	[18:17]
mod6	All: I've put some steps together for installing ubuntu 10.04 & debian 6.0.10	[18:20]
mod6	I've tested installing the iso's indicated on a VM and went through my own steps 2x (once for each OS)	[18:20]
mod6	if someone with some spare time can validate my findings that would be great -- these are just the first two of a number of these that need to be discovered/defined	[18:21]
mod6	http://dpaste.com/1TMGCVA.txt	[18:21]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1hdPty7 )	[18:21]
decimation	https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/IBM_System_36091.sj.jpg < ascii, entire machine state visible for inspection	[18:21]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1hdPtyj )	[18:21]
asciilifeform	as on 'univac'	[18:22]
asciilifeform	and no, not whole state	[18:22]
asciilifeform	just the regs	[18:22]
decimation	well, yeah no storage	[18:22]
shinohai	mod6: I'll do a confirm this week.	[18:23]
mod6	shinohai: thanks!!	[18:23]
mod6	much appreciated	[18:23]
shinohai	nw	[18:23]
shinohai	I haven't got to build that latest yet though, still fails on boost every time.	[18:24]
asciilifeform	mod6: have you had a chance to build 'rotor' ?	[18:26]
mod6	no, not since i couldn't get it to build before. i'll try it again this coming week for sure.	[18:26]
asciilifeform	mod6: note that the toolchain and deps build only ever needs to be done once, per machine	[18:27]
asciilifeform	after that, it is precisely the same as working with 'stator'	[18:27]
decimation	http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/07/26/the_identity_crisis_of_the_modern_zoo/ < amusing: "“If you asked somebody in our profession 10 years ago, ‘Is the gorilla happy?’, they would get really upset and say, ‘Why would you ask such an anthropomorphic question?’ ” said Kagan, 57. “But these sort of things now are legitimately a part of scientific study and assessment.”"	[18:28]
assbot	The identity crisis of the modern zoo - The Boston Globe ... ( http://bit.ly/1OJ7sXQ )	[18:28]
mod6	asciilifeform: ok, thanks. so noted.	[18:28]
mod6	i.e. I dont have to rebuild the buildroot & "universe" every time I want to add a patch, just rebuild 'stator'.	[18:29]
decimation	you only really need to rebuild bitcoind if that's what you patched	[18:29]
asciilifeform	aha	[18:29]
decimation	just make sure you are using the correct paths	[18:29]
mod6	yeah, i was trying to say this: <+decimation> you only really need to rebuild bitcoind if that's what you patched	[18:29]
decimation	one nice thing about 'rotor' system: only one choice of build environment	[18:30]
mod6	right.	[18:30]
mod6	i like the allure of this.	[18:30]
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asciilifeform	the main allure, for me, was 1) drepper goes to the furnace where he belongs; no glibc 2) can switch cpu arch by turning a knob	[18:31]
mod6	gotcha.	[18:31]
shinohai	https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3fg0jw/could_a_cartel_of_pool_operators_collude_to/ctoh97g	[18:33]
assbot	luke-jr comments on Could a cartel of pool operators collude to 51%-attack the blockchain and/or change the protocol? ... ( http://bit.ly/1OJ7QFR )	[18:33]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9800 @ 0.00052762 = 5.1707 BTC [+]	[18:42]
asciilifeform	'It is mid-boggling that a protocol that "handles assets worth billions of dollars" is defined only by a bloated C++ implementation -- maintaned by one company, that of course will not be responsible for any losses...'	[18:54]
asciilifeform	lulzy	[18:54]
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*	assbot gives voice to williamdunne	[18:58]
williamdunne	jurov: What would you like on the Eurola website? Starting out with clisp so I'll see if I can get that done as my hello world project	[18:59]
*	assbot gives voice to danielpbarron	[18:59]
jurov	marketplace with orders managed from irc	[19:00]
williamdunne	Wanna do a brief or summin?	[19:02]
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asciilifeform	trinque, ben_vulpes, anyone else with 'clang' -- here's an idea, use the graph-walker solrodar used to determine the subset of openssl (see old thread re: same)	[19:02]
trinque	asciilifeform: maybe discernable with better lcov output too?	[19:03]
asciilifeform	trinque: see earlier thread today re: coverage	[19:04]
trinque	the lcov stuff would probably be more helpful with a battery of tests run upon it such as mod6 has discussed	[19:04]
asciilifeform	just because a line did not execute in ten billion hours does not mean that it could not	[19:04]
asciilifeform	have to prove that it is unreachable.	[19:04]
asciilifeform	before it can be cut.	[19:04]
trinque	yeah, true, this would call for static analysis to know it can be cut	[19:04]
asciilifeform	which is what i was talking about.	[19:04]
jurov	doesn't openssl use function pointers?	[19:06]
asciilifeform	does it ?	[19:07]
trinque	odeary me	[19:07]
*	trinque bbl	[19:07]
jurov	just asking, i wouldn't put it past them	[19:07]
williamdunne	jurov: I'm not sure how long I'll be around for, but if you drop me a doc outlining what you want I'll have a look at it tomorrow	[19:10]
asciilifeform	jurov: this kind of thing is at the root of a very old disagreement i have with mircea_popescu	[19:10]
asciilifeform	jurov: his position, if you recall, is that we are more or less stuck with the turds forever.	[19:10]
asciilifeform	because no one will ever fully nail down the function of the existing orchestra	[19:11]
asciilifeform	in such a way as to guarantee 100% compatibility	[19:11]
jurov	i remember	[19:11]
asciilifeform	my position is that this is reasonable, but what is unreasonable is to ever have more respect for a program than its author did.	[19:11]
jurov	williamdunne: eventually.	[19:12]
asciilifeform	and that if you are using a pile of shit which fits in no one's head, don't be surprised when the inevitable happens	[19:13]
asciilifeform	and that there is not a magical elixir that absolves you of the need to 'fit in head'	[19:13]
asciilifeform	all works of man are either 'fits in head' or 'pile of shit', no exceptions	[19:13]
asciilifeform	(note that i did not specify ~which~ head)	[19:14]
asciilifeform	but there has to be... ~a~ head.	[19:14]
asciilifeform	related...	[19:24]
asciilifeform	'Overriding and updating old information is something I have to work really hard at. The end result of the way I think and the way the standard is defined is that I immediately saw these massively complex ways to do things that "nobody" understood. Take HyTime and what it calls "architectual forms" -- I vividly remember a long walk around a quiet Tallahassee one summer night with the creator of this concept, when I questione	[19:24]
asciilifeform	d some of the designs and how it would be implemented, and he was quiet for the longest time before he said that I was probably the first person to have understood what he was _really_ trying to accomplish. That would have been _such_ a great thing if it had been, say, rocket science, but it was not. It was a man-made complexity so great that it had required _months_ of brain-wracking to really get my intuition working. Tha	[19:24]
asciilifeform	t was the first time I had really serious doubts about the wisdom of SGML's structuring process, because the massive complexity of it all is _completely_ pointless and a result of spreading the semantics so thin that you had to keep mental track of an enormous number of relationships to end up with an idea of what something should do or mean. It does not have to be that way. It was _profoundly_ disappointing to discover that	[19:24]
asciilifeform	at the end of this long process of grasping something that looked intellectually challenging lie only a complexity that resulted from _rejecting_ simplicity of design at a few crucial points. Hell, it still took me years to figure out what alternatives they _should_ have picked up, and by then it was too late.'	[19:25]
asciilifeform	( http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3207878053204561@naggum.net.html )	[19:25]
assbot	Re: XML and lisp - Naggum cll archive ... ( http://bit.ly/1MEOrah )	[19:25]
asciilifeform	'...But it is the same problem we find in C++. The question to be asked of massive complexity like that is not "what wonderful things did you find out that made this necessary", but "whatever did you _miss_ that made this so horribly complex"? You can sometimes see people who are really, really dumb go about some simple tasks in a way that tells you that they have arrived at their ways of performing it through an incredibly	[19:27]
asciilifeform	painful process that they are loathe to reopen or examine at all no matter how hard it is to get it right for them.'	[19:27]
punkman	asciilifeform: all works of man are either 'fits in head' or 'pile of shit', no exceptions << don't some things require more than a single head?	[19:33]
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asciilifeform	no	[19:33]
asciilifeform	if something ~requires~ >1 head, it consists of separable things.	[19:34]
asciilifeform	i happen to believe that we have not yet devised the means for truly separating - conceptually - computer programs	[19:35]
asciilifeform	this is why, to return to earlier thread, pdp11 programmed by a single mind who writes every single instruction that the machine will ever execute, can be a jewel that is maintained for generations,	[19:35]
asciilifeform	while pdp11 with unix - loses linefeeds	[19:35]
asciilifeform	and evolves into what we have now	[19:35]
asciilifeform	and is a bottomless pit of 'nobody could have foreseen's	[19:36]
asciilifeform	observe the 'CRITICAL_SECTION' turds in bitcoind	[19:37]
asciilifeform	are those the work of a fella who truly, deeply understood what the machine is doing?	[19:38]
asciilifeform	who had a machine for which this claim could be made, even in principle ?	[19:38]
asciilifeform	or are they something else.	[19:38]
punkman	clearly not understood considering the number of results in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/search?q=deadlock&type=Issues	[19:42]
assbot	Search Results · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1MEREH5 )	[19:42]
asciilifeform	it is a result of the kind of cargocultism driven by justified and maniacal fear that leads, e.g., c programmers to pepper their code with redundant parenthesis	[19:43]
asciilifeform	(leading to a lifelong phobia of that key on the keyboard)	[19:44]
asciilifeform	my point, incidentally, was not that satoshi was a tard (though it may be)	[19:49]
asciilifeform	but that winblowz makes the kind of certainty needed to avoid the 'grasping for the handrails' described earlier, impossible	[19:49]
asciilifeform	and unix - marginally less so	[19:49]
punkman	Ada on bare metal then?	[19:50]
asciilifeform	for example.	[19:50]
asciilifeform	but also must be very particular, ~which~ metal	[19:52]
asciilifeform	read the src to linux's bootloader some time	[19:52]
asciilifeform	can you tell me which lines are actually necessary ?	[19:52]
asciilifeform	betcha you can't	[19:52]
asciilifeform	even if you took 'operating systems' at uni	[19:52]
asciilifeform	for instance, the 'a20 gate' is almost certainly not actually implemented in your chipset	[19:53]
asciilifeform	yet it is in EVERY MOTHERFUCKING BOOTLOADER on the planet	[19:53]
asciilifeform	even microshit's	[19:53]
asciilifeform	because wat if you have a 386, aha.	[19:53]
asciilifeform	much of this crud is quite like satoshi's 'critical sections'	[19:53]
asciilifeform	included because author has no fucking idea what is going on	[19:53]
asciilifeform	and cut&paste, because 'people have come to expect'	[19:54]
asciilifeform	or 'nobody was ever fired for making bootloader six bytes larger'	[19:54]
asciilifeform	and this shit adds up	[19:55]
asciilifeform	the notion that it doesn't, that it doesn't matter whether bootloader is six bytes of liquid shit heavier,	[19:55]
asciilifeform	is the fundamental lie.	[19:55]
asciilifeform	all of it - matters.	[19:55]
asciilifeform	the fact that x86 cpu has idiot ibm-mandated instructions for doing binary-coded-decimal - MATTERS	[19:55]
asciilifeform	the fact that there is no standardized chipset, and that x86 is really a loose collection of mostly-incompatible shitboxes that somehow pretend to run the same soft - matters.	[19:56]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-04-2015#1086967 << see also.	[19:57]
assbot	Logged on 03-04-2015 19:07:33; mircea_popescu: look. whatever whatever may be built as or not, i have two basic expectations. one is, for fucking machinery to behave the same way from night to next evening. the other, albeit weaker, is that if i get a "minimal work" thing i actually have to do minimal work.	[19:57]
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*	assbot gives voice to kakobrekla	[20:03]
kakobrekla	The BIOS in many personal computers stores the date and time in BCD because the MC6818 real-time clock chip used in the original IBM PC AT motherboard provided the time encoded in BCD. < heh	[20:04]
kakobrekla	compatible with the pyramids or what was it	[20:05]
mircea_popescu	contemptible with the pyramids.	[20:07]
mircea_popescu	http://trilema.com/2014/the-complexity-of-life-a-triad/ < dragonfly article.	[20:15]
assbot	The complexity of life, a triad on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1LZbV9r )	[20:15]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-08-2015#1222602 << fucking monitor was like 1200, cca 1985-86	[20:17]
assbot	Logged on 02-08-2015 21:15:16; decimation: yeah my dad paid about $1500 in 1989 dollars for x86 pc... 'epson apex'	[20:17]
mircea_popescu	or 120k of the romanian lei of the time. 50 or so salaries.	[20:17]
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mircea_popescu	heh Luke-Jr fighting a loser's battle with his "bitcoin core" matters twu faith.	[20:21]
mircea_popescu	hey midnightmagic ask me things about things will you.	[20:23]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-08-2015#1222651 << total win.	[20:23]
assbot	Logged on 02-08-2015 22:00:29; jurov: marketplace with orders managed from irc	[20:23]
mircea_popescu	if jurov finally gets a proper chat system built in, and we have a chat bot that does auction lists etc...	[20:24]
mircea_popescu	eulora is suddenly more advanced than the state of new york.	[20:24]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-08-2015#1222669 << the problem is this : you have to verify old blocks. all of them, al lthe way to genesis. if you do not, for whatever reason, you are on an alt. and if you're going to make an alt, better make it properly and deliberately rather than the idiot woman "i had too much too drink so things happened" approach.	[20:26]
assbot	Logged on 02-08-2015 22:11:06; asciilifeform: jurov: his position, if you recall, is that we are more or less stuck with the turds forever.	[20:26]
mircea_popescu	but that aside, naggum's via alf point re complexity being usually and generally as a safe bet the result of someone missing the thinkboat certainly stands resplendent on its own feet.	[20:29]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-08-2015#1222718 << no, not "because what if you have a 386" but because a) does it work as is ? and b) do we know anyone who could cut it out and not introduce a bug ?	[20:31]
assbot	Logged on 02-08-2015 22:53:44; asciilifeform: because wat if you have a 386, aha.	[20:31]
mircea_popescu	same reason you have an appendix.	[20:31]
mircea_popescu	"hurts nothing and too hard to take out"	[20:31]
scoopbot_revived	The very very jealous with envy thing, part deux. http://trilema.com/2015/the-very-very-jealous-with-envy-thing-part-deux/	[20:32]
asciilifeform	yes, yes appendix.	[20:34]
asciilifeform	problem is, we're drowning in appendices	[20:34]
asciilifeform	and they all have appendicitis.	[20:34]
mircea_popescu	so it is.	[20:35]
mircea_popescu	every generation has this, an overpowering, indomitable reason why the previous one fails to matter.	[20:35]
mircea_popescu	for kids born in the 80s when talking to their parents it's "shut the fuck up, you fucked women in a single hole your entire life"	[20:36]
asciilifeform	as for the deliberate alt, it is somewhat like the ancient discussion about whether one would rather be 'scanned in' and shot and ~then~ replaced by the robot running the sim, or to have a neuron at a time replaced with electric one	[20:36]
mircea_popescu	and it stands. no man can look you in the face past that, for he's a sort of a toy.	[20:36]
asciilifeform	same result, but many more takers for the latter than the former.	[20:36]
mircea_popescu	but it goes all the way to the fucking celts, you knoiw, "you never had iron tools. everything you say, and everything you think you mean or stand for is therefore invalid"	[20:37]
mircea_popescu	perhaps this is the next one.	[20:37]
asciilifeform	^ well no shit	[20:37]
mircea_popescu	"you can't code. fuck you."	[20:37]
asciilifeform	these words are uttered, yes, today. by childrenz who 'code' php...	[20:37]
mircea_popescu	it's not fucking magic, yo. utterance is not the glue that makes it stick.	[20:37]
asciilifeform	i see no glue, thus far. only the utterance.	[20:38]
mircea_popescu	we're discussing the future.	[20:38]
mircea_popescu	the reason you can not see the substance of the future should be apparent.	[20:38]
asciilifeform	'what did the future ever do for me' (tm) (r)	[20:38]
mircea_popescu	>D	[20:38]
mircea_popescu	off to eat bbl	[20:38]
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kakobrekla	It seems that evolution had not merely selected the best code for the task, it had also advocated those programs which took advantage of the electromagnetic quirks of that specific microchip environment. The five separate logic cells were clearly crucial to the chip’s operation, but they were interacting with the main circuitry through some unorthodox method < heh	[20:48]
kakobrekla	'Furthermore, the final program did not work reliably when it was loaded onto other FPGAs of the same type.' < fun	[20:49]
BingoBoingo	https://archive.is/iFfGs	[20:50]
assbot	losermcfail comments on A single political entity effectively has 57% control over Bitcoin's hashpower. What do we do about it? ... ( http://bit.ly/1N2UHGW )	[20:50]
hanbot	sounds like what asciilifeform was talking about.	[20:50]
punkman	https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3fk3p9/a_single_political_entity_effectively_has_57/ctpcsko lol	[21:06]
assbot	ergofobe comments on A single political entity effectively has 57% control over Bitcoin's hashpower. What do we do about it? ... ( http://bit.ly/1N2WsUx )	[21:06]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42196 @ 0.00054474 = 22.9858 BTC [+] {2}	[21:08]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31300 @ 0.00054499 = 17.0582 BTC [+] {3}	[21:32]
asciilifeform	https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3fk3p9/a_single_political_entity_effectively_has_57 << philippino up the thread, naturally	[21:38]
assbot	A single political entity effectively has 57% control over Bitcoin's hashpower. What do we do about it? : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1IF68Fd )	[21:38]
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mircea_popescu	kinda sad roi really.	[21:41]
mircea_popescu	but what do i know.	[21:41]
asciilifeform	which i	[21:42]
mircea_popescu	<	[21:42]
asciilifeform	ah	[21:42]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: re: earlier and recurrent mempool thread: consider this: http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.cpp#2776	[21:45]
assbot	Satoshi 0.5.3.1/src/main.cpp ... ( http://bit.ly/1E3RUbz )	[21:45]
asciilifeform	classical apparatus has a data structure, 'mapPriority', http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/ident?_i=mapPriority	[21:45]
assbot	Satoshi 0.5.3.1 identifier search: mapPriority ... ( http://bit.ly/1E3RTnX )	[21:45]
mircea_popescu	dPriority /= ::GetSerializeSize(tx, SER_NETWORK);	[21:45]
asciilifeform	sum(valuein * age) / txsize	[21:45]
mircea_popescu	right	[21:45]
mircea_popescu	course this is mining priority neh ?	[21:46]
asciilifeform	which is odd, does not correspond to the formula given	[21:46]
asciilifeform	or hm, divided, yes	[21:46]
asciilifeform	but anyway, it is used when conjuring up a block, aha	[21:46]
mircea_popescu	dPriority += (double)nValueIn * nConf; << seems it does	[21:46]
mircea_popescu	aha.	[21:46]
asciilifeform	can just as easily use when 1) evicting 2) sharing inventory	[21:46]
mircea_popescu	we don't give a shit about agwe	[21:47]
asciilifeform	yes!	[21:47]
mircea_popescu	i specifically chose to ignore this.	[21:47]
asciilifeform	whole point of this conversation is that i wanted to say this	[21:47]
mircea_popescu	a ok	[21:47]
mircea_popescu	looky : there are parts where we may... ever so slightly... deviate.	[21:47]
mircea_popescu	take what you can.	[21:47]
asciilifeform	well, and one other thing - what does payware node feed non-payers ?	[21:47]
asciilifeform	anything?	[21:47]
asciilifeform	random ordering?	[21:47]
mircea_popescu	i have been thinking about it.	[21:48]
asciilifeform	same	[21:48]
mircea_popescu	it's not a trivial question	[21:48]
asciilifeform	was in a hammock for some hours earlier, thinking about only this.	[21:48]
mircea_popescu	nothing may be it.	[21:48]
mircea_popescu	has some historical support anyway	[21:49]
asciilifeform	if nothing, how to ramp up?	[21:49]
mircea_popescu	myeah.	[21:49]
asciilifeform	(right now this would have the effect of essentially unplugging my node)	[21:49]
mircea_popescu	of course it could fed the discarded txn	[21:49]
asciilifeform	whereas if you feed the hobos when paying folks aren't bidding, you get essentially same situation as fees	[21:50]
asciilifeform	where hobos 'come to expect'	[21:50]
asciilifeform	and the overall friction of their presence is a permanent irritant	[21:50]
asciilifeform	if we feed the hobos the pigshit end of the priority queue, they simply have an incentive to run away to any other node	[21:50]
mircea_popescu	to make sure : your notion of "paying" includes "peers that relay txn that are worthy of going in our pool", correct ?	[21:50]
asciilifeform	which feeds unsorted	[21:50]
mircea_popescu	so what's wrong with this incentive ?	[21:51]
asciilifeform	leaving this conundrum aside	[21:51]
asciilifeform	because it remains unspecified how to implement any notion of 'peers that bring good tx'	[21:51]
asciilifeform	because peers have no identity	[21:51]
mircea_popescu	ip.	[21:51]
asciilifeform	ip is ephemeral	[21:51]
asciilifeform	and comms are unauthenticated.	[21:51]
mircea_popescu	ip!	[21:51]
mircea_popescu	the "signed" option can be in v2.0	[21:52]
asciilifeform	the buggerz already have infrastructure set up for diddling bitcoin net, all they gotta do now is drop in shit tx	[21:52]
mircea_popescu	have a special, encrypted protocol. fix the "magic hole" issue too	[21:52]
asciilifeform	that's sorta what i was doing in the hammock	[21:52]
mircea_popescu	too soon, srsly.	[21:52]
asciilifeform	in my head!	[21:52]
mircea_popescu	alright.	[21:52]
asciilifeform	the problem i ~would~ like to solve near-term is 'node demands infinite ram'	[21:53]
asciilifeform	this has to die.	[21:53]
asciilifeform	how - is secondary	[21:53]
mircea_popescu	the most important point of military strategy is that a weak position which the enemy doesn't invest is not really weak in any sense. this is the meaning of napoleon's "never interrupt"	[21:53]
asciilifeform	converse of this is that weak position enemy ~does~ invest in, means death.	[21:53]
mircea_popescu	nah.	[21:54]
mircea_popescu	you doin't actually want to kill.	[21:54]
asciilifeform	'what you don't know about will not only hurt you, but eat you for lunch and ask for seconds' (tm) (r)	[21:54]
mircea_popescu	ever read any balzac incidentally ?	[21:54]
asciilifeform	nope	[21:54]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28150 @ 0.000545 = 15.3418 BTC [+] {2}	[21:54]
asciilifeform	though iirc there is one in my queue	[21:54]
mircea_popescu	he's worth a read, man had a knack for comprehendingsocial science.	[21:55]
asciilifeform	on account of some earlier mircea_popescuism	[21:55]
mircea_popescu	anyway, he has a story about doesn't matter what, in which the setting is that two groups have licenses to print newspapers in some small town	[21:55]
mircea_popescu	one of them dominates, but takes care the other one (some widow, buncha incompetent losers) doesn't outright go out of business	[21:55]
mircea_popescu	for the obvious reason.	[21:55]
asciilifeform	microshit&apple, 1990s	[21:55]
asciilifeform	aha	[21:55]
mircea_popescu	the casual, obvious manner in which he treats this otherwise subtle point really stuck with me. 1800s! man got it.	[21:56]
mircea_popescu	he also has an excellent depiction of the exact mechanics of inheritance in eugenie grandet	[21:57]
mircea_popescu	it's quite simple : if you're old but somehow "owner", you will get so fucking raped you'll deplore the protections of that "ownership".	[21:57]
asciilifeform	the gas/car dichotomy, aha	[21:57]
mircea_popescu	pretty much every amateur thinker / world saver captive in english as his sole language would benefit immensely from reading balzac. whereas the clueful might really enjoy the elegant display he makes of things.	[21:58]
asciilifeform	momentarily back to http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-08-2015#1222828 : at this point i very much regard the notion of 'so-and-so is an ip, and at this moment he is Worthy, and now let's try to calculate when he isn't...' as deeply mistaken.	[22:01]
assbot	Logged on 03-08-2015 00:51:09; mircea_popescu: to make sure : your notion of "paying" includes "peers that relay txn that are worthy of going in our pool", correct ?	[22:01]
*	NewLiberty has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)	[22:01]
asciilifeform	it has to run like normal wot.	[22:01]
mircea_popescu	"has" . why has.	[22:01]
asciilifeform	because crypto	[22:01]
punkman	can just vpn?	[22:01]
asciilifeform	because the comms have to be private and authenticated. and these concepts have no meaning when dealing with unknowns.	[22:02]
scoopbot_revived	The 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9 Sunday event http://trilema.com/2015/the-1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-sunday-event/	[22:02]
mircea_popescu	can we carry this discussion in practical terms ?	[22:03]
mircea_popescu	someone is going to steal my ip ?	[22:03]
asciilifeform	not sure how to make it more intensely practical	[22:03]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: no, someone will mitm the link	[22:03]
asciilifeform	just as is happening to your box now, and mine	[22:03]
asciilifeform	just that now they are contenting themselves with nulling the payloads.	[22:03]
asciilifeform	do i have to describe here how mitm works? draw a picture ?	[22:04]
asciilifeform	unlike the rest of bitcoin, mempool ~is~ sensitive to mitm and other real-time issues	[22:05]
shinohai	with crayons perhaps?	[22:05]
asciilifeform	yes, satoshi was concerned only that blocks are agreed on and that the constituent tx are genuine, etc	[22:05]
asciilifeform	but we are speaking of nodes trading mempool sorted by minability value	[22:05]
asciilifeform	this is inherently time-sensitive and diddlable (if only in the pure withholding sense)	[22:05]
mircea_popescu	hm	[22:06]
asciilifeform	not to mention the fact that the payload itself has value!	[22:06]
mircea_popescu	i find no counters to summon.	[22:06]
*	alaricsp has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)	[22:07]
asciilifeform	as i understand now, we are converging on something quite like (what is known of) the chinese approach.	[22:07]
mircea_popescu	indeed	[22:07]
asciilifeform	where the peers actually drink beer (or what do they drink there?) together	[22:08]
mircea_popescu	this is illusory, my well placed flies on the wall tell me.	[22:08]
mircea_popescu	i nfact, they don't actually trust each other enough to share... ips	[22:08]
asciilifeform	unsurprising. but they share tx?	[22:08]
mircea_popescu	but yes, meta-chinese, whatever.	[22:08]
mircea_popescu	they maybe do.	[22:08]
mircea_popescu	oriental love.	[22:08]
asciilifeform	i suppose meta-china is where they mine with actual nodes	[22:08]
asciilifeform	instead of 'spv' or whatever thing named after herpes virus	[22:09]
mircea_popescu	aptly named.	[22:09]
mircea_popescu	fucking americans and their macdonalds.	[22:09]
mircea_popescu	"oh you know what we could do to make this meal shittier ? shit in it!"	[22:09]
mircea_popescu	no shit, sherlick.	[22:09]
asciilifeform	china: 'we already discovered it 5,000 yrs ago. here, have some fried rat turd dumpling'	[22:09]
*	btcdrak has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)	[22:10]
mircea_popescu	spv nodes. because sometime you will want to pretend you're wearing a greatcoat and only have a q-tip	[22:10]
mircea_popescu	and that sometime is right now and that someone is most everyone and this somehow matters now.	[22:11]
mircea_popescu	"because we haven't joined the sv circus to not deliver huge numbers devoid of any content or meaning!!1" as hearn aptly put it.	[22:11]
asciilifeform	the sheer monumental stupidity of this floored me, and i am still half-convinced that it is disinfo somehow	[22:11]
asciilifeform	what, no one in cn can score a sat dish ?	[22:12]
mircea_popescu	it's not anymore disinfo than the "civil rights movement"	[22:12]
asciilifeform	and a contract with, fuck, norway ?	[22:12]
mircea_popescu	you know, us faking its own death.	[22:12]
*	asciilifeform was - until recently - labouring under the notion that cn was quite alive	[22:13]
mircea_popescu	thin live layer at the top, exactly like the froth of 90s moscow.	[22:13]
mircea_popescu	peat underneath.	[22:14]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19706 @ 0.000545 = 10.7398 BTC [+]	[22:14]
*	alaricsp (~alaric@love.warhead.org.uk) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[22:14]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22944 @ 0.00055531 = 12.741 BTC [+] {3}	[22:15]
mircea_popescu	lol wikipedia thinks george sand was a "feminist" writer	[22:18]
mircea_popescu	lawd have mercy.	[22:18]
mircea_popescu	http://trilema.com/2015/the-1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-sunday-event/#selection-193.21-193.36 << got the sexpr ? hm ? HM ?	[22:33]
assbot	The 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9 Sunday event on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1HjLEwj )	[22:33]
punkman	!up alaricsp	[22:34]
*	assbot gives voice to alaricsp	[22:34]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6350 @ 0.00055744 = 3.5397 BTC [+] {3}	[22:40]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14163 @ 0.00055771 = 7.8988 BTC [+]	[22:58]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6306 @ 0.00054474 = 3.4351 BTC [-]	[23:03]
asciilifeform	ben_vulpes, mod6, trinque: http://www.skynet.ie/~caolan/Packages/callcatcher.html	[23:04]
assbot	callcatcher: collect functions/methods defined and subtract called/referenced ... ( http://bit.ly/1K0b0Bi )	[23:04]
*	assbot removes voice from alaricsp	[23:05]
*	TheRealJohnGalt has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)	[23:06]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-08-2015#1222917 << wasn't aware that it was anything but the weevils eating carcass of dead dragon, top to bottom	[23:07]
assbot	Logged on 03-08-2015 01:14:02; mircea_popescu: thin live layer at the top, exactly like the froth of 90s moscow.	[23:07]
asciilifeform	what layer.	[23:07]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20100 @ 0.00053881 = 10.8301 BTC [-] {3}	[23:10]
*	WolfGoethe has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)	[23:11]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20350 @ 0.00053792 = 10.9467 BTC [-] {3}	[23:16]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28050 @ 0.00053682 = 15.0578 BTC [-] {3}	[23:19]
decimation	01:12 <+asciilifeform> the sheer monumental stupidity of this floored me, and i am still half-convinced that it is disinfo somehow < at some point we are gonna run our own mining corp too :(	[23:25]
asciilifeform	decimation: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=01-08-2015#1220100 << see also	[23:29]
assbot	Logged on 01-08-2015 00:37:07; mircea_popescu: suppose we're in the park. "throw the crumbs over there" "but the birds won't see them" "doesn't matter, we're the only things that matter here" "but we don't cluck"	[23:29]
decimation	heh	[23:31]
*	shovel_boss_ (~shovel_bo@unaffiliated/shovel-boss/x-4881665) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[23:31]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34735 @ 0.00052119 = 18.1035 BTC [-]	[23:32]
decimation	asciilifeform: related: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=25-06-2015#1175695 http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=25-06-2015#1175696 http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=25-06-2015#1175697	[23:41]
assbot	Logged on 25-06-2015 04:45:12; decimation: asciilifeform: why would ulbricht keep detailed records of his incriminating evidence on his laptop?	[23:41]
assbot	Logged on 25-06-2015 04:45:22; asciilifeform: decimation: because retardation?	[23:41]
assbot	Logged on 25-06-2015 04:45:26; decimation: exactly.	[23:41]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25300 @ 0.00050914 = 12.8812 BTC [-] {5}	[23:49]
decimation	the longer I live, the more dubious I am of the initial assumption that 'enemy plays hand to his maximum advantage'	[23:51]
*	shovel_boss_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)	[23:51]
*	tripleslash (~triplesla@unaffiliated/imsaguy) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[23:51]
decimation	granted, sometimes you gotta think that way for strategic reasons, but it often misleads	[23:52]
*	Cory (~Cory@unaffiliated/cory) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[23:55]
*	hanbot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)	[23:56]

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