Forum logs for 02 Aug 2015

Sunday, 24 November, Year 11 d.Tr. | Author: Mircea Popescu
* Now talking on #bitcoin-assets [11:04]
* Topic for #bitcoin-assets is: || || || [11:04]
* Topic for #bitcoin-assets set by kakobrekla!~kako@unaffiliated/kakobrekla at Wed Mar 5 16:58:12 2014 [11:04]
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-assbot- Welcome to #bitcoin-assets. To get voice (ie, to be able to speak), send me "!up" in a private message to get an OTP. You must have a sufficient WoT rating. If you do not have a WoT account or sufficient rating, try politely asking one of the voiced people for a temporary voice. [11:04]
mircea_popescu gernika wd. [11:05]
* #bitcoin-assets :Cannot send to channel [11:05]
* assbot gives voice to mircea_popescu [11:06]
mircea_popescu gernika wd. [11:06]
mircea_popescu << ok, but the broad point is still "technology makes it easier". sure. to what ? to whatever. sure. [11:13]
assbot Logged on 02-08-2015 01:30:55; asciilifeform: (which was, that www makes things very easy for the censor, much easier at any rate than rounding up 10,000 books to burn) [11:13]
mircea_popescu is it easier for censor to censor documents if documents are deliberately created in easy to censor ways ? sure. [11:14]
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mircea_popescu is it easier for anti-censor to create documents in formats not easy to censor ? sure. [11:14]
mircea_popescu etc. [11:14]
mircea_popescu << how is a 32 bit machine going to build for another platform if one doesn't deliberately put the "build for other platforms" code in there! [11:15]
assbot Logged on 02-08-2015 01:32:00; asciilifeform: multilib not relevant! [11:15]
mircea_popescu obviously c will compile for anything. but not by itself! [11:15]
mircea_popescu << on and off. [11:17]
assbot Logged on 02-08-2015 01:47:14; asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you still getting ^this on your nodes ? [11:17]
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ben_vulpes phf: << nifty! [11:23]
assbot ... ( ) [11:23]
mircea_popescu << exactly. the behaviour itself can not be reproduced over lans. [11:24]
assbot Logged on 02-08-2015 02:11:18; asciilifeform: it also ~never~ happens between directly-connected nodes on my lan, for example. [11:24]
mircea_popescu << how the fuck does this work, 1k per sqft omfg. [11:25]
assbot Logged on 02-08-2015 04:02:50; decimation: "Average price per square foot for Aspen CO was $909, an increase of 23% compared to the same period last year." [11:25]
mircea_popescu euro housing costs ~1-2 keuro per sqmp! that's a fucking degree of magnitude. [11:26]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40800 @ 0.00054026 = 22.0426 BTC [+] {3} [11:27]
ben_vulpes [11:28]
ben_vulpes ehuhueeuhe [11:28]
ben_vulpes gaze ye and weep [11:28]
mircea_popescu i have no idea why anyone would do this. [11:29]
mircea_popescu i point and laugh at the locals six digit price delusions for real estate in the dead centre of ba. [11:30]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20050 @ 0.00052554 = 10.5371 BTC [-] [11:33]
* SuchWow|2 is now known as SuchWow [11:33]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24900 @ 0.00054773 = 13.6385 BTC [+] {3} [11:34]
mircea_popescu kakobrekla i just looked at nowhere does it advertise hosting illegal content. i'm not giving them any money. [11:45]
kakobrekla hosting illegal content? [11:45]
mircea_popescu to qualify for any payments, a host must prominently advertise hosting illegal content. [11:45]
mircea_popescu yep. [11:45]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10150 @ 0.00055022 = 5.5847 BTC [+] [11:45]
mircea_popescu i will not give money to derps who follow usg. [11:45]
kakobrekla where does phoenixnap do that pls show [11:46]
mircea_popescu you understand how grandfathering works right ? [11:46]
mircea_popescu in any case : i will not pay any isp that fails to advertise ignoring "law". [11:47]
kakobrekla you are worried about dmca? [11:47]
kakobrekla i dont see phoenixnap doing it, so whatevs. [11:47]
mircea_popescu i am worried about living in a world which contains isps that follow "law" [11:47]
mircea_popescu and yes, it's a difficult principle to apply uniformly, and yes i don't universally managing atm. nevertheless, i'm not taking stuff back to the dumbass world. and yes i think it'd be just grand if everyone follows it wherever possible. [11:49]
kakobrekla < funny. [11:49]
assbot Logged on 08-05-2015 21:46:38; asciilifeform: i guess my red-hot doug lenat k001 w4r3z stays on kako's box, l0l [11:49]
mircea_popescu it's purely a pr thing. got to get people used to the idea that they MUST say they despise the usg. [11:50]
mircea_popescu to get paid. [11:50]
mircea_popescu none of this "people agree, rule of law, bla bla" nonsense any more. [11:51]
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kakobrekla this is all based on nothing. [11:51]
mircea_popescu people happen to agree alright, it's just the other way. [11:51]
kakobrekla dont worry, you can say its just too much css. [11:51]
mircea_popescu kakobrekla you're a nihilist. everything's ultimately based on nothing as fatr as you're concerned, if you're willing to take the time and look. [11:51]
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chetty it's purely a pr thing. got to get people used to the idea that they MUST say they despise the usg.// just the usg? lots of other places seem equally worthy of it [11:58]
mircea_popescu nah, generally speaking. [11:58]
mircea_popescu gotta get back to the good old 80s "if you follow the law you're unfuckable, an idiot and get lost" [11:58]
mircea_popescu it's after all how the soviets ended. [11:58]
mircea_popescu lulz of today : if one googles for bulletproof hosting stuff in the last month, the first 5 results are this dumbass trendmicro "report", and the rest references to it. like : "A new report from TrendLabs -- the research arm of security company Trend Micro -- uncovers the existence of what it calls 'Bulletproof Hosting Services' (BPHSs) which provide" [12:04]
mircea_popescu fancy that, trendmicro discovered the hole in the donut! [12:04]
asciilifeform obviously c will compile for anything. but not by itself! << my point was that i put a complete kit in there. that will build x86_64 on whatever you like, x86-32, cray, pdp11. [12:15]
mircea_popescu o i c [12:16]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: fortunately there is wildlife that lives on usg-free net, whose turds one can follow to find the forest. i speak, of course, of crapware artists and sp4mz0rz [12:19]
mircea_popescu of course. [12:20]
mircea_popescu but forget the discreet bs. [12:20]
mircea_popescu mainstream all the things. [12:20]
asciilifeform 100% mainstream in ru [12:20]
mircea_popescu myeah. [12:20]
mircea_popescu 100% mainstream anywhere outside of "my mother had me with a retard" land. [12:21]
asciilifeform in other nyooz, incitatus still synced (along with the other two) [12:26]
asciilifeform from a closer look, it appears to have been running into swap earlier [12:26]
asciilifeform what is really needed is moar s00p3rn0d3 l1f3styl3!!! nodez [12:27]
asciilifeform like dulap [12:27]
asciilifeform though, strangely enough, the best-performing (e.g., fewest 'black hole' issues) node in my fleet thus far has been 'zoolag', which is sitting under my desk, on residential fiber [12:28]
asciilifeform 50 connections, presently (dulap - 40; incitatus - 32) [12:29]
mircea_popescu how long it's been on is the largest factor for that metric. [12:31]
asciilifeform not only [12:31]
asciilifeform but the 'black hole' effect, also. [12:31]
asciilifeform << check out the philippinos [12:31]
assbot How important are individual full nodes, and how much does it benefit the network per individual? : Bitcoin ... ( ) [12:31]
asciilifeform apparently - still in business [12:32]
mircea_popescu doh. [12:32]
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asciilifeform ben_vulpes, mod6, mircea_popescu, et al: << interestingly, these appear to be dead code. what were they meant for ? [12:44]
assbot Satoshi ... ( ) [12:44]
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asciilifeform trinque's gcov paint these a very deep red (0 runs) [12:45]
asciilifeform and indeed, i see no graph path to them [12:45]
asciilifeform speaking of which, anyone ever get solrodar's graph into a readable form ? [12:45]
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ben_vulpes asciilifeform: mircea_popescu did iirc, via gimp [12:49]
ben_vulpes but i never did. [12:49]
mircea_popescu yea. [12:49]
asciilifeform if it was what i saw, that wasn't readable ! [12:50]
asciilifeform fucking ball of yarn [12:50]
mircea_popescu ... [12:50]
mircea_popescu how would i decide that if. [12:50]
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asciilifeform well i just gave an example. can you tell from that picture whether it is theoretically possible for the 'subscription' routines to be called? [12:51]
ben_vulpes readable, renderable... [12:51]
trinque asciilifeform: that thing's a bit jacked [12:51]
trinque split the results between the build dirs and the ourlibs dir [12:51]
* asciilifeform used grep to answer the question, unambiguous 'no' [12:51]
trinque I'm going to give that thing a few more shoves today and see if I can get it all in one tree [12:51]
asciilifeform trinque: gcov is useful but doesn't prove code to be alive or dead, can only suggest [12:52]
asciilifeform (wallet, for instance, would look entirely 'dead' on a gcov run where such was not used) [12:52]
ben_vulpes i don't see any usage of anysubscribed at least, asciilifeform [12:52]
trinque yep, makes sense [12:52]
asciilifeform the place i'm trying to go with this is: dead code ought not be in The Book, except - in the one and only case where it pre-dates gavin et al, it could be shoved into an appendix [12:53]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform let's keep it simple. have you loaded the svg in gimp and examined the picture painted. [12:53]
asciilifeform link to latest version of this? [12:54]
mircea_popescu i don't have one. lesee [12:54]
mircea_popescu !s from:mircea gimp [12:54]
assbot 8 results for 'from:mircea gimp' : [12:54]
asciilifeform ? [12:55]
assbot Index of /bitcoin/callgraph/ ... ( ) [12:55]
mircea_popescu [12:55]
assbot Call graph ... ( ) [12:55]
asciilifeform yeah that was what i saw [12:56]
asciilifeform incidentally, it is worthless if flattened into a bitmap [12:57]
asciilifeform gotta be viewed in a graphical www browser, so you can search [12:57]
trinque [12:57]
assbot ... ( ) [12:58]
asciilifeform and, after you do this, aside from the nightmare of intersecting lines and bubbles light-years away from their ~only~ antecedent, etc, [12:58]
trinque would be nice to grab a node and shake [12:58]
asciilifeform you will see things like: 'CNode :: PushVersion' is connected! to whom?? to 'CNode :: CNode'. [12:59]
trinque << also looks neat [12:59]
assbot cola.js: Constraint-based Layout in the Browser ... ( ) [12:59]
asciilifeform this conveys ~zero~ useful information. in particular, the fact that 'CNode :: PushVersion' is a deadcode island is no longer visually apparent. [12:59]
trinque << in particular [12:59]
assbot Incremental exploration of a large graph ... ( ) [12:59]
asciilifeform the above observation is not a criticism of solrodar's work, but of the catastrophically inadequate existing tooling [13:00]
mircea_popescu mkay. well.... [13:02]
trinque so... what about those JS things [13:02]
asciilifeform trinque: the 'springy' thing is quite like the molecular strain sims i've used [13:02]
asciilifeform except there is no reason to make it a clicking and dragging game [13:03]
trinque yeah, best to just have some layout algo make it readable [13:03]
asciilifeform can give the 'atoms' electrostatic-style charge, so they repel, and the bonds - 'strain', so they contract [13:03]
trinque clicking collapsed nodes to expand might be helpful [13:03]
asciilifeform then simulated-anneal. [13:03]
trinque yeah [13:03]
asciilifeform at any rate, i originally wanted this as a wall poster [13:04]
asciilifeform so it would have to be very clean to justify losing search [13:04]
trinque [13:04]
assbot Grid Layout ... ( ) [13:04]
trinque that helps my eyes a bit [13:04]
ben_vulpes ;;later tell phf << do forgive my ignorance, but what am i missing about converting the "command" into a string? (Adlai, asciilifeform, your eyes'd be appreciated too) [13:04]
gribble The operation succeeded. [13:04]
assbot ... ( ) [13:04]
trinque would need a legend or bigger boxes [13:04]
asciilifeform ew [13:04]
asciilifeform 'help the mouse find the cheese' [13:05]
asciilifeform no thx [13:05]
trinque lol [13:05]
asciilifeform the most critical thing re: the graph is probably to make it reflect ~only function calls~ rather than class membership [13:06]
asciilifeform the latter is ~entirely irrelevant~ to a call graph! [13:06]
punkman [13:07]
assbot Someone has broadcast a transaction with 20,000 inputs! : Bitcoin ... ( ) [13:07]
asciilifeform why the fuck are 0-valued outputs spendable !? [13:10]
asciilifeform (or even valid in a block) [13:11]
asciilifeform << interesting [13:12]
punkman plenty of pages like that [13:13]
punkman [13:14]
assbot pankkake / pushtx — Bitbucket ... ( ) [13:14]
asciilifeform punkman: the linked page is connected to a live pool. and demands password (presumably subscriptions are sold?) [13:14]
asciilifeform reminiscent of what mircea_popescu suggested, but with moar duct tape and chicken wire [13:14]
asciilifeform << this is seriously, deeply 'un-lispy' code. it explicitly reads fields!!! what you oughta do is define the 'message' structure in the most minimal way you can think of, and then write a routine that snarfs any structure defined that way, whatever it may be. [13:16]
assbot Logged on 02-08-2015 16:01:52; ben_vulpes: ;;later tell phf << do forgive my ignorance, but what am i missing about converting the "command" into a string? (Adlai, asciilifeform, your eyes'd be appreciated too) [13:16]
ben_vulpes well how'd i know without putting myself up for the cane [13:17]
asciilifeform then you will have a jewel in your toolbox that you can use 20 years from now [13:17]
asciilifeform as it is, you have... perl. [13:17]
asciilifeform << most famous example [13:18]
assbot CLiki: Binary-types ... ( ) [13:18]
ben_vulpes this has come up before, and i had forgotten. [13:18]
asciilifeform << mirror [13:18]
assbot frodef/binary-types · GitHub ... ( ) [13:18]
asciilifeform and yes, it seems like 50x more work, at first glance [13:18]
asciilifeform because... it is. [13:19]
asciilifeform but the whole point of a computer is that you do the 50, so you don't have to do the 50,000 over next 20 years. [13:19]
asciilifeform re: binary-types, see esp. the mirror link, for example [13:20]
asciilifeform it has definition of 'elf' (unix executable) format parser [13:20]
ben_vulpes am reading, yes [13:20]
trinque hm yeah, that's much cooler; it's a lot like you'd describe a grammar for a parser generator [13:22]
trinque well fuck, it is that [13:22]
trinque lol [13:22]
* trinque finds coffee [13:22]
ben_vulpes (but ascii - i /can/ mutate in place, therefore i /must/!) [13:24]
asciilifeform wai wat [13:24]
ben_vulpes just a joke [13:25]
ben_vulpes "we can, therefore we must" [13:25]
asciilifeform << obligatory [13:25]
assbot Re: two questions about strings - Naggum cll archive ... ( ) [13:25]
asciilifeform (mainly last paragraph) [13:26]
asciilifeform ;;isup [13:26]
gribble is down [13:26]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu ^ [13:27]
mircea_popescu aha. [13:27]
mircea_popescu shoulda read it yesterday, what is this. [13:27]
mircea_popescu you read when you feel like ?!?!?! [13:27]
asciilifeform prolly more of the usual [13:28]
punkman every ;;isup feeds the troll [13:28]
asciilifeform the troll lives on sunshine [13:29]
asciilifeform and big fat duffels of benjie from usg [13:29]
mircea_popescu lol [13:29]
mircea_popescu srsly, there;s nothing new there as opposed to yest. [13:29]
trinque "Common Lisp is a big-city language. Spit out the hayseed, pronounce "shit" with one syllable and "shotgun" with two." << wahahaha [13:29]
asciilifeform except that i linked to mircea_popescu's pgp key in a post [13:30]
asciilifeform and clicked (by mistake) just now, noticed that no one can see it. [13:30]
trinque people who don't like "mean" people have no appreciation for comedy [13:30]
mircea_popescu aha. [13:30]
mircea_popescu well, it exists as a signed thing in the hands of the conference participants. [13:30]
asciilifeform aha. [13:30]
punkman how do you pronounce shotgun with more/less syllables than two? [13:31]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i wrote a short post last night, linking to an of the phuctored list, and exhorting the folks whose names appear therein to write [13:31]
asciilifeform (doubt it will have any effect. perhaps ought to consider spamming them?) [13:31]
mircea_popescu fuck em, why would you care/bother ? [13:31]
scoopbot_revived Doing "God's Work" [13:31]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: would like to find what they have in common ? [13:32]
mircea_popescu you're coming from tyhis weird place where we're all possessed of functioning brains here on this great internet and stuff. wtf. [13:32]
asciilifeform what, ~nobody on the list~ has brain ? [13:32]
asciilifeform not one ? [13:32]
mircea_popescu they have in common being either dumb per se or else i nthe crosshairs of the manacling-with-dumb cannon. [13:32]
mircea_popescu neither class wants to talk to you about it, for different reasons. [13:33]
asciilifeform i suppose now that their names have been 'googleable' for months, and still no reaction - this conclusion is nearly inescapable [13:33]
mircea_popescu something like that. [13:33]
punkman asciilifeform: did you email all of the already? I remember some mention of emails [13:33]
mircea_popescu you got one schmuck exercising his right to be idiotic is the sumall. [13:33]
asciilifeform punkman: nope. and it would almost certainly vanish in their spam filter, also. [13:33]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: yeah i recall. was it anvin? iirc [13:34]
mircea_popescu some anon. [13:34]
asciilifeform ah that one [13:34]
mircea_popescu because hey, that's the way to do things. [13:34]
asciilifeform that one didn't even sign his name! [13:34]
mircea_popescu i'll take it a notch further : none of them had anything to sign. ever. [13:34]
mircea_popescu this includes the pgp mailing list. [13:34]
asciilifeform 'go to the place - where? no one knows, and bring me back that - which? no one knows' (tm) [13:35]
mircea_popescu crazy as it may sound. [13:35]
asciilifeform wai wut [13:35]
asciilifeform as in, nothing ever changed from their signature being on it or not ? [13:35]
mircea_popescu not.a.single.entry.on.your.list.ever.hand.any.legitimate.use.for.encryption. [13:35]
asciilifeform well no shit. [13:35]
mircea_popescu the impersonated ones, i mean. [13:36]
mircea_popescu they just have no business here. [13:36]
asciilifeform idk, the 'update signing key' people [13:36]
asciilifeform had at least in their own planet, a use [13:36]
mircea_popescu it's a case of, 12 yo girly playing a game she doesn't understand with toys that aren't really toys. except online and with boys. [13:36]
asciilifeform and some of the maths students may have had something or other to say to someone or other [13:36]
mircea_popescu heh. [13:36]
asciilifeform and the folks releasing code (anvin? a few others?) did sign it [13:37]
mircea_popescu i bet you, dollars to donuts, that they signed it for "wouldn';t it be cool if" reasons. an d the thing doesn't actually work / is not full lengthj /.trivially defeated on some op sec hole or other. [13:37]
asciilifeform what i mean to say is, the folks selected for this special delicacy treat, were selected presumably for reasons ? [13:37]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: iirc linus checks sigs [13:38]
asciilifeform (of anvin et all) [13:38]
* mircea_popescu suddenly realised, sometimes last night, that the deep reason nothing works is simply that - all of it was made on a lark. [13:38]
mircea_popescu not for serious. [13:38]
asciilifeform but how often? between him and the gods. i wouldn't know [13:38]
mircea_popescu orly ? i thought he just dumps code someone emailed him intop the kernel. [13:38]
asciilifeform l0l [13:39]
mircea_popescu for srs. [13:39]
asciilifeform (if he did, by all rights 2015 ought to have happened in 2005, or 1995... ?) [13:39]
mircea_popescu i vaguely recall some incident where precisely this happened. [13:40]
mircea_popescu i suppose i should stfu if i can't link it. [13:40]
* asciilifeform also recalls [13:40]
asciilifeform but it may have involved freebsd [13:40]
mircea_popescu anyway : there's this entire pretend culture, and it goes very deep. dunno how to properly illustrate it in its meta splendor. [13:40]
mircea_popescu but i'm nothing oif not persistent, so lemme try. [13:40]
asciilifeform << rumour [13:40]
assbot FBI 'planted backdoor' in OpenBSD • The Register ... ( ) [13:40]
asciilifeform and the 'pretend culture' at least in as far as it concerns public key crypto, was a very deliberate plank of the 'cypherpunk' folks - 'let's use crypto for every piece of shit, to defeat traffic analysis' [13:41]
mircea_popescu case A : kid sees girl in bar. waits for moment when no-one's looking around 3am, kloinks her in the head with bottle, drags her dark alley outside, shreds her clothes and her virginity. [13:41]
mircea_popescu case B : kid sees girl in bar, works up his courage until 3am, eventually approaches her and explains that he's into kinky stuff. which works out, because she always dreamed about being raped, so they meet in dark alley and have some great sex. [13:42]
mircea_popescu and i posit that the entire fucking thing, "from the ground up", is B. all of it. [13:42]
mircea_popescu "hey, woiuldn't it be cool if you could like... encrypt shit ?" "why ?" "so you cxould be like... a secre agent!" [13:43]
mircea_popescu then they went about roleplaying their super-secret-agent kink for a while [13:43]
mircea_popescu and then forgot about it. [13:43]
mircea_popescu guitar hero for a different generation. [13:44]
trinque sounds like the problem with letting most people define themselves on their own [13:44]
mircea_popescu possibly the last time anyone did anything for serious with computers was in tyhe 80s. [13:45]
trinque you're going to get fake representations out of most, if it cuts it with the people looking at them [13:45]
mircea_popescu since then, everyone's just been trying to salvage utility out of the kids' roleplaying [13:45]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: industry exists [13:45]
trinque I was fumbling for that idea the other day re: internal representations of identity [13:45]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform does it. [13:45]
asciilifeform i know, this sound like 'martians live among us' [13:45]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: recall that pdp emulator fella ? [13:45]
asciilifeform somebody's buying that. [13:45]
asciilifeform folks with beards as long as my arm. [13:46]
mircea_popescu aha. exactly. [13:46]
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mircea_popescu those are hobbists not industrialists. [13:46]
asciilifeform on whom the remnants of 'the west' stand, like on elephants on turtles. [13:46]
asciilifeform not hobbyists. those use 'open source' emu [13:46]
asciilifeform this one is intended for industrial plant [13:46]
asciilifeform which still runs, yes, on pdp [13:46]
mircea_popescu as someone's hobby. [13:47]
asciilifeform (as do a great many american .mil systems, of the kind which still work) [13:47]
mircea_popescu the "industry", such as it is, is fucking google, holding hackathons [13:47]
asciilifeform no. [13:47]
mircea_popescu trying to feed themselves out of used condoms left behind in dark alleys [13:47]
asciilifeform the industry, in actuality, is grey beards maintaining code written in 1973, which keeps the water mains pressurized and the lights on. [13:47]
asciilifeform and the condom injection molds going [13:48]
asciilifeform etc [13:48]
mircea_popescu aha. what's your definition of "industry" ? [13:48]
asciilifeform easy: the ox [13:48]
asciilifeform not the flies on his horns. [13:48]
mircea_popescu because i suspect you go by ops whereas i go by financials./ [13:48]
mircea_popescu yea. okay. [13:48]
asciilifeform if you go by financials, then the 'industry' is the u.s. fed. [13:48]
mircea_popescu pretty much. [13:48]
asciilifeform which prints the payola [13:48]
* assbot gives voice to shinohai [13:48]
asciilifeform and then gives it out to demented bums [13:49]
mircea_popescu alrighty then. that was my sad storyt for today. [13:49]
shinohai [13:49]
assbot BBspot - Paris Hilton Releases Tinkerbell Linux ... ( ) [13:49]
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mircea_popescu do not expect a girl with a collar is actually a slave - she probably thought it looks good for her facebook ; do not expect someone with a pgp key is a lord - they probably were just trying to impress someone. [13:49]
asciilifeform Slutware Linux << win [13:49]
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asciilifeform iirc the 'cypherpunk' folks thought of themselves as anonymous soldiers trying to pave the way for 'lords' to use key without insta-flagging [13:50]
shinohai LOL @ slutware [13:51]
shinohai I should push a slackware release [13:51]
trinque is that poor guy still maintaining it? [13:51]
kakobrekla heh, re pdp, apparently [13:53]
assbot Nuke plants to rely on PDP-11 code UNTIL 2050! • The Register ... ( ) [13:53]
kakobrekla i guess end of world is 2051 [13:54]
trinque jurov: how hard is it to dump maildir mail files from mailman? [13:54]
trinque I wrote a python script last night that turds together maildir mail from the txt dumps, but it's a hack at best [13:55]
trinque at least there are sigs; I don't really care about having identical mail headers to the originals [13:55]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6580 @ 0.00055022 = 3.6204 BTC [+] [14:01]
asciilifeform i will add, btw, that yes, i know that 'code from 1973' is not 'maintained' in the modern idiot bottomless-barrel-of-bug sense [14:02]
asciilifeform instead, it is, e.g., transplanted to a 486 using the emulator mentioned earlier, handwritten by a fella with prolly a metre-long beard [14:03]
asciilifeform because if it were not - the water stops coming out of the tap [14:03]
asciilifeform kakobrekla: it was officially proclaimed, at one point, that the sole remaining american land-based nuke delivery vehicle, 'minuteman', is 100% vax-powered [14:04]
asciilifeform (in the rocket, a miniaturized variant; on land - the real thing) [14:05]
asciilifeform 'PDP-11 assembler coders are hard to find' << what a pile of shit [14:06]
* asciilifeform raises hand [14:06]
asciilifeform but no, the unspoken qualification is the two-metre-long beard [14:06]
asciilifeform and yes, i can understand why. [14:06]
asciilifeform the thing that ~must~ be understood is that the ancient iron is maintained entirely, wholly, as a shield against microshitification [14:07]
asciilifeform when a pc runs reactor - yes, that is the end. [14:08]
asciilifeform yes, let's have winblowz, poettering, drepper, chinese capacitors, in reactor room. [14:08]
asciilifeform it'll be grand. [14:08]
jurov yes they do [14:09]
asciilifeform just let me know the day before, so i can catch the last plane out. [14:09]
kakobrekla out to where ?! [14:09]
jurov in these parts most reactors reportedly run on win2k [14:09]
asciilifeform 'away from here' [14:09]
kakobrekla no such place. [14:09]
asciilifeform << obligatory [14:09]
assbot The Kafka Project | English | My Destination (transl. Alex Flores) ... ( ) [14:09]
kakobrekla everywhere i go, im here. [14:10]
jurov trinque it's easy, if you're subscribed you can publish it yourself [14:12]
jurov i will, too. eventually. [14:12]
trinque jurov: I missed a bunch of messages due to that tls thing, so I'm trying to grab all those [14:18]
jurov this one is from july 3 [14:24]
assbot ... ( ) [14:24]
trinque cool! thanks! [14:25]
trinque that actually covers everything I needed, I think [14:25]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform i guess that's a point yea. [14:29]
mircea_popescu in these parts most reactors reportedly run on win2k << why not me while at it. [14:38]
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jurov me is not properly certified [14:42]
jurov can't even imagine what noise would austrians do if a reactor nearby would be allowed to run on something homebrew [14:44]
jurov everything had to be modernized by siemens & co.. [14:45]
kakobrekla >I cooked up a multi-user general ledger system based on this hardware in '79. My client was a rural Iowa accountant who (what a prophet!) was afraid of hacks, so he insisted it NOT be compatible with anything else on the planet. So, though NorthStar DOS was way ahead of it's time, I had to ditch it. I burned my own boot EPROMs, wrote the whole thing using Ashley's assembler. You just can't do that anymore. [14:45]
kakobrekla hehe [14:46]
kakobrekla same problem in 79 [14:46]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5960 @ 0.00052554 = 3.1322 BTC [-] {2} [14:57]
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mircea_popescu in other news, [15:22]
assbot ... ( ) [15:22]
shinohai LOL [15:26]
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shinohai LOL BingoBoingo haz to update his article: [15:53]
assbot Cecil the lion's brother Jericho is alive - ... ( ) [15:53]
punkman "Reportedly, Koko enjoys seeing human nipples and will request her female caregivers to show them to her on occasion. This has resulted in sexual harassment lawsuits by caregivers who have felt pressured by Patterson to show their nipples to Koko against their will. Attorney Jody Weiner, who previously represented KoKo in licensing agreements, writes that he should have recognized warning signs of a sex scandal. " [15:56]
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BingoBoingo shinohai: Nope. Jericho it turns out is not actually Cecil's brother. CNN is just listening to any crank who calls in. [15:59]
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shinohai I had hoped you could churn out another story based on that xD [15:59]
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assbot [HAVELOCK] [BTR] 2949 @ 0.001135 = 3.3471 BTC [+] [16:15]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11565 @ 0.00052268 = 6.0448 BTC [-] [16:18]
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mod6 interestingly, incitatus synced and stayed synced today << ahh ok, thanks for the heads up [16:26]
shinohai I m syncing the dark side's wallet, keeps crashing with CDB: Error -30974, can't open database [16:28]
mircea_popescu !up eric [16:58]
-assbot- You voiced eric for 30 minutes. [16:59]
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mircea_popescu !up livegnik [16:59]
-assbot- You voiced livegnik for 30 minutes. [16:59]
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mircea_popescu !up roasbeef [16:59]
-assbot- You voiced roasbeef for 30 minutes. [16:59]
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mircea_popescu asciilifeform> can give the 'atoms' electrostatic-style charge, so they repel, and the bonds - 'strain', so they contract << this is actually a pretty great idea. and then run iterations over the thing until stable. [17:01]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform> so it would have to be very clean to justify losing search << technically speaking, needing "search" is a symptom that you've not yet learned it. [17:02]
mircea_popescu ie, fit it in head. [17:02]
decimation 17:42 <+jurov> everything had to be modernized by siemens & co.. < jurov, but why does 'modernize' mean 'run on winblows 2k?' [17:03]
decimation where's the german alternative to microsoft? [17:03]
jurov ask siemens [17:04]
mircea_popescu siemens is "german" in the sense tsipras is "greek" and so on. absolutely nothing to do. [17:05]
decimation agilent - runs spectrum analyzers on winblows. rohde & schwarz - same [17:05]
decimation it's not like they sell enough of them for 'people to come to expect' [17:06]
asciilifeform << no shit. and if i'd learned it, wouldn't need the diagram. [17:07]
assbot Logged on 02-08-2015 19:59:28; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> so it would have to be very clean to justify losing search << technically speaking, needing "search" is a symptom that you've not yet learned it. [17:07]
mircea_popescu anyway, re punkman's reddit link - the tards miss the fruit and focus on the pit of that thing, as usual. [17:07]
mircea_popescu (or even valid in a block) << they are not valid. they are spendable for reasons that have to do with what the protocol says, ie, unintentionally. [17:09]
asciilifeform well sure [17:09]
jurov decimation: perhaps you missed how my info how gigawatts of steam turbines are simulated and projected ... in excel [17:10]
jurov (i mean, when they are installed, hopefully not when they are built. but not sure on that, either) [17:11]
mircea_popescu or my info as to how the entire fucking house of cards came down chiefly bewcause some idiots were doing copula calculations [17:11]
mircea_popescu also in excel [17:11]
mircea_popescu (gauss copula, look into that sometime. if you want "pseudoscience that burned the world", global warming's nothing, witch hunts are nothing, this thing ruioned trillions) [17:11]
asciilifeform jurov: the thing is, nothing is built from the ground up (except for the circus mentioned earlier just now by mircea_popescu) with 'excel'. the infrastructure is running on fumes [17:11]
asciilifeform and i'd bet good money that there is, somewhere deep inside that win2k reactor, a real computer [17:12]
asciilifeform largely autonomous from the shitputer [17:12]
asciilifeform (which in turn is mostly a display of gui dials and gauges) [17:12]
jurov like in iran? [17:12]
asciilifeform jurov is almost certainly thinking of the refinery [17:13]
asciilifeform where yes, winblowz [17:13]
asciilifeform this is because the poor saps were stuck buying new [17:13]
asciilifeform can't get the pdp new. [17:13]
asciilifeform buy new, get 'siemens', run moar winblowz. [17:13]
jurov how is half of europe gonna get a whiff of pdp? [17:14]
asciilifeform << aha, international komy000nity!!! [17:14]
assbot Logged on 02-08-2015 20:02:14; mircea_popescu: siemens is "german" in the sense tsipras is "greek" and so on. absolutely nothing to do. [17:14]
asciilifeform jurov: ask the folks with the intact sov reactors [17:14]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform your idea of nuke plants is more akin to a UP's big boy control hatch. this is not how they work, whole shit's run in java these days. for that matter - remember the recent airbus which had all 4 engines stop because counter smash issues ? [17:14]
scoopbot_revived Line betting on BitBet, July 2015 [17:14]
jurov ^ [17:15]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: 1) nothing realtime-reactive runs in java 2) the counter overflows after what was it, 8 months of continuous engine time ???? [17:15]
mircea_popescu i tell you. there are no professionals left. all children posing for the mirror. [17:15]
mircea_popescu a world of play-pretend like they're adults and doing things [17:15]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform if i recall, maxint / 100 it was. [17:15]
jurov and i strongly suspect the computers of yore aren't what alf imagines, either. have them eat a text with arbitrary linelengths and see [17:15]
mircea_popescu ;;calc 8 *30 * 24 * 3600 * 100 [17:16]
gribble 2073600000 [17:16]
mircea_popescu seems about right [17:16]
decimation [17:16]
assbot Logged on 03-05-2015 03:39:28; decimation: asciilifeform: I have a friend who is an old graybeard EE, been working on actual circuitry since the 80's [17:16]
assbot Logged on 03-05-2015 03:40:09; decimation: he said recently a sea change has come with kids coming out of school; they want to specify massive cpu, memory for very simple micro-controllers so they can run java [17:16]
asciilifeform jurov: go feed it the text [17:16]
deedbot- accepted: 1 [17:16]
mircea_popescu jurov or with locales :D [17:16]
asciilifeform but jurov isn't wrong, per se, there probably ~is~ a reactor somewhere handled by four java boxes trying to cover for each other's garbagecollector pauses [17:16]
mircea_popescu a nuclear reactor is a kind of flywheel [17:17]
mircea_popescu you got plenty of time. [17:17]
asciilifeform and you can tell from a distance when a sector of civilization has been consumed by the cancer [17:17]
chetty feed the computer anything, with front panel switches [17:17]
asciilifeform !s flashlight crash [17:17]
assbot 4 results for 'flashlight crash' : [17:17]
jurov all out email and else woes are due to text originally defined as "interspersed by cr in shorter intervals than any buffer wherever gets() is used" [17:17]
jurov all else is binary by definition [17:17]
asciilifeform jurov: don't confuse the retardation of unix&descendants for 'the real computer' [17:18]
mircea_popescu i suspect this is actually the correct definition of "text" for computing. [17:18]
decimation you guys realise we are gonna have to respecify email too right? [17:18]
asciilifeform 'the real computer' was and is programmed in asm ab initio - yes, from entirely empty space; for every task. [17:18]
mircea_popescu decimation how about respecifying email as null. [17:18]
jurov asciilifeform: and your pdp example is? [17:18]
asciilifeform ab initio. [17:18]
decimation mircea_popescu: sounds good to me. file transfer a .txt [17:18]
asciilifeform respecifying email as null << win [17:19]
mircea_popescu imagine if every so often i had to click here to see if there's new lines [17:19]
mircea_popescu then click on the lines indioviduallky [17:19]
mircea_popescu FUCKING HELL WHO DID THIS [17:19]
decimation actually you could argue that 'email' as a concept is 'let's pretend we are working at the post office' [17:19]
mircea_popescu ^ [17:19]
decimation not 'let's build a system for reliably transmitting information' [17:19]
mircea_popescu it makes as much sense as drawing horses on a car. [17:19]
mircea_popescu it had its importance selling technology to the retards. [17:20]
mircea_popescu but other than that, it's as useful as "wysiwyg" or "point and click" or "just works!" [17:20]
mircea_popescu nonsensical gimmicks of the ilk of "stop fucking your sister or else santa won't bringf you presents" and "eat your veggies so you can overpower your sister and stick it in her" [17:20]
asciilifeform l0l [17:21]
decimation much of it stems from "need to hustle to make money, use what's on the shelf and make it fit" [17:21]
decimation I was watching a 'banking' show on the BBC the other day. it featured a young afghan who managed to make it from goat-fuck-stan to the uk welfare state [17:22]
decimation he complained that in afghanistan, everything is free - but people are poor and live in mud huts. they envy the english for their warm houses &etc. but now he works 12 hour days to try to make rent, pay bills - and never has time to enjoy his warm house [17:23]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: see also the idiocy of 'skeumorphism' [17:23]
decimation because nothing is free [17:24]
asciilifeform decimation: this and precisely this, is why i laugh at people who discuss compensation in terms of money [17:24]
decimation yeah, it would be interesting for someone to interview people exactly like this: grew up orc, came to 'first world' [17:24]
asciilifeform ~i don't give a fuck~ what you're paid, how much of it do you get to ~keep~, and how much time do you get to sit in the warm house and drink tea and not think of work [17:25]
decimation later in the episode he managed to somehow get an offer from the uk govt - he could buy his flat for 20k pounds [17:25]
asciilifeform very few orcs have the brains to even consider this formula [17:25]
decimation but the minimum loan from the bank is 25k [17:25]
decimation he was like 'what am I gonna do with an extra 9k and I have to pay interest!" [17:26]
decimation the rest of the show featured idiots with 25k credit card balances trying 'refinance' [17:27]
asciilifeform l0l [17:27]
asciilifeform must have been filmed a while ago, these figures would probably have an extra trailing zero today [17:27]
asciilifeform at least where i live. [17:27]
decimation < can watch here if you manage to obtain uk ip [17:27]
assbot BBC iPlayer - The Bank: A Matter of Life and Debt - 3. Lending ... ( ) [17:27]
asciilifeform back to the earlier observation, the attachment orcs have to the myth of 'the west' is a truly religious affair [17:28]
decimation yeah you could tell the guy was disappointed with his situation [17:28]
asciilifeform not even being planted nose-first into the genuine pile of shit, has any curative effect [17:28]
asciilifeform he will probably try to make his way 'moar west' [17:29]
decimation < for example here [17:29]
assbot Illegal Immigrants Exploit Channel Tunnel Closure - Breitbart ... ( ) [17:29]
asciilifeform to, say, canada, or usa. [17:29]
* assbot removes voice from eric [17:29]
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asciilifeform where he can work 14 hour days for a flat with six of his kind [17:29]
asciilifeform (or get into the jail, where, approximately, same) [17:29]
decimation somehow people from Eritrea are convinced that if they only make it to the uk they can supports their entire families! [17:30]
decimation not realizing the complete chumpatron they are entering [17:30]
asciilifeform << see also [17:30]
assbot Logged on 28-07-2015 04:36:46; asciilifeform: 'hot', in this case, being the world of the coolie, and 'cold' being the world he aspires to enter (or at least send his children to, oxbridge and harvaprinceyaleton) [17:30]
decimation usa was kinda like this in the 1800's [17:31]
jurov yet no one goes back to afganistan [17:31]
decimation east coast cities swelled with immigrants trying to get some monies [17:31]
decimation but at least at that time they could buy a cheap farm in kansas [17:32]
decimation jurov: good point [17:32]
asciilifeform jurov: warm house is addictive. or whole 'west' circus would voluntarily rebuild afganistan at home [17:32]
mircea_popescu decimation> yeah, it would be interesting for someone to interview people exactly like this: grew up orc, came to 'first world' << ie, half of romania under 50yo. [17:32]
asciilifeform (they are anyway, but slowly) [17:32]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16425 @ 0.00052268 = 8.585 BTC [-] [17:32]
mircea_popescu prolly 1/4 of russia or so, cause they're orc-er. [17:32]
mircea_popescu and re the myth of the west, there was that trilema article linked from a recent one, "florida and other places". [17:33]
mircea_popescu tis a sad thing. [17:33]
asciilifeform jurov: it is the very meaning of the word 'addiction' as commonly used. (no one speaks of being 'addicted' to air, sunlight, etc) [17:33]
mircea_popescu jurov actually plenty of people do go back to afghanistan. [17:34]
asciilifeform if you want things that are ultimately doing you in in double time, and aren't even particularly fun - that is it [17:34]
mircea_popescu heck, 50% of the 1st generation immigrants return home with the loot, marry and live there. [17:34]
mircea_popescu the retards - stay. [17:34]
mircea_popescu the rest just loot and leave. [17:34]
asciilifeform when there is what to loot.. [17:34]
mircea_popescu which is ~why~ the libertard open border stuff doesn't work. [17:34]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform for as long as china takes the coupons... [17:34]
asciilifeform (in more recent times, the 'loot' is in the form of bait, handed out monthly at welfare office) [17:34]
decimation it stands a prayer of working if someone gets nothing for 'just showing up' [17:35]
mircea_popescu no, it does not. [17:35]
decimation but that implies nobody gets paid just to exist [17:35]
mircea_popescu because the people you want don't want you, and the people you want you nobody wants. [17:35]
decimation yeah, there's some raw human truth there [17:35]
mircea_popescu myeah. [17:35]
decimation < finland is going through this now [17:36]
assbot Thousands rally in Finland against lawmaker's anti-immigration remark [17:36]
mircea_popescu there hasn't yet in the history of mankind been a wealth marriage that was happy. and "free immigraton" is notexceptional just because large. [17:36]
asciilifeform decimation: they envy sweden its great mosques [17:36]
decimation some politicians suggesting that maybe it's not good to import africa wholesale in one generation isn't such a great idea [17:36]
trinque against racism lol [17:36]
decimation of course they are hateful racists for suggesting it [17:36]
mircea_popescu finnish chicks want the cock, what. [17:37]
mircea_popescu i can see it. [17:37]
mircea_popescu what';d you have them to, wait on rpietilla ? [17:37]
asciilifeform l0l! [17:37]
jurov is there any successful example of resisting immigration? [17:37]
asciilifeform Ze Supernoud Lifestyle [17:37]
asciilifeform jurov: japan. [17:37]
asciilifeform resists, to the bitter end. [17:38]
asciilifeform like real men. [17:38]
decimation ^ true [17:38]
decimation except they are not reproducing [17:38]
asciilifeform wake me up when they reach 1900 level and still drop [17:38]
mircea_popescu there's no resisting immigration. vienna fell. byzantium fell. [17:38]
trinque that's the economic side's fault [17:38]
asciilifeform what do we need the extra people post-1900 for anyway [17:38]
decimation where's that rammstein 'amerika' song [17:38]
asciilifeform ^ [17:38]
asciilifeform [17:39]
assbot Logged on 29-07-2015 02:37:56; shinohai: [17:39]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: 'there is no resisting ants and flies, giraffe fell, elephant fell' [17:39]
mircea_popescu quite so. [17:39]
asciilifeform but not from flies. [17:39]
mircea_popescu of course not. [17:40]
mircea_popescu the idea that immigration is the problem is braindamage of the level of thinking the maggots made the corpse. [17:40]
mircea_popescu somehow the immigrants weren't the problem back when azns were washing gold miner's shirts for a penny [17:40]
mircea_popescu and the irish fought the blacks for who's gonna polish knob tonight [17:40]
asciilifeform the only shred of logic in there is that the maggots sometimes do feast on living flesh [17:40]
mircea_popescu never. [17:40]
mircea_popescu in fact, fly maggots used to clean wounds. [17:41]
mircea_popescu they like live flesh about as much as you like birdshit. [17:41]
asciilifeform yes. and removed when they start to eat the living flesh [17:41]
mircea_popescu "the humans sometimes feast on the bird shit". i guess ? [17:41]
asciilifeform (they will, from lack of what else, eventually) [17:41]
decimation [17:41]
assbot Dirt Poor Haitians Eat Mud Cookies To Survive ... ( ) [17:41]
asciilifeform decimation: i suppose they haven't any accordions to boil [17:42]
mircea_popescu is this more jenkem journalism from the jenkem journals ? [17:42]
decimation lol yeah where's jenkem [17:42]
mircea_popescu huffpo huffed it. [17:42]
mircea_popescu hence huffpopo. [17:42]
decimation no look it's in real media too [17:42]
assbot Haitians trick empty bellies with dirt cookies - The Boston Globe ... ( ) [17:42]
asciilifeform actually, iirc washpost huffed it [17:42]
asciilifeform in the '90s [17:42]
asciilifeform 'dirt cookie' was a favourite in chinese cultural revolution [17:42]
asciilifeform (there is ~some~ nutritious matter in the earth) [17:43]
mircea_popescu and vitamins! [17:43]
mircea_popescu thing is - there's more nutritious matter in shit. [17:44]
mircea_popescu especially if a rich dude shat it. [17:44]
mircea_popescu (for the obvious reason - what do you think earth is after all. microorganism digested shit) [17:44]
decimation re:immigrants -> it seems to me that there is a difference between "we have empty land that someone could show up and till" and "one more derp could survive on the scraps here" [17:44]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: usually in china they put it through a pig first. but yes. [17:44]
mircea_popescu decimation the difference is whether you run pinkerton or welfare. [17:45]
decimation [17:45]
assbot Night-Soil Men, the Human Waste Collectors of Georgian London ... ( ) [17:45]
asciilifeform ^ was big business esp. in the brief time when piss was boiled for nitrate [17:45]
mircea_popescu most of classical london consisted of a majority of "recyclers". [17:45]
mircea_popescu and a minority of tradesmen, moving goods on an abstract mercator map [17:46]
asciilifeform world's biggest unsurprise. of what is there most in a city? shit [17:46]
mircea_popescu well, these days it's "shitheads" [17:46]
decimation now we are too rich to care, apparently, just dig up more fossilized shit [17:46]
asciilifeform obligatory >> [17:46]
assbot Logged on 09-03-2014 01:03:00; asciilifeform: 'Industry is the only true source of wealth, and there was no industry in Rome. By day the Ostia road was crowded with carts and muleteers, carrying to the great city the silks and spices of the East, the marble of Asia Minor, the timber of the Atlas, the grain of Africa and Egypt; and the carts brought nothing out but loads of dung. That was their return cargo. London turns dirt into [17:46]
mircea_popescu BingoBoingo "as was the case with this one." << link missing ? [17:50]
mircea_popescu "the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia authorized a search warrant" << for the record, this is not how it works. a judge authorises it, and im nary too enchanted by this tendency of individuals to hide behind imaginary shields. [17:51]
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decimation asciilifeform: was thinking about that 'pcb card' problem. what if you terminated each trace into its own tank circuit, and then 'probed' the circuit with a vna? [17:55]
decimation each tank would resonate at a particular frequency, or not, if trace is not blown. could terminate into bnc [17:56]
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mircea_popescu if you're going to do this why not measure inductance/harmonics/etc. [17:56]
mircea_popescu end up with a weird sort of ADC [17:57]
decimation yeah that's what I'm suggesting (complex impedance - part of which is inductance) [17:57]
decimation if one is clever, one could make the tank circuit out of pure pcb trace, making it cheaper. 'crosstalk' could be a problem though [17:58]
jurov inb4 "multilevel ROM" by placing resistors [17:59]
mircea_popescu ya lol [17:59]
decimation yeah but placing/removing components is a pain and expensive [18:00]
mircea_popescu what would be really great would be if your thing could somehow be made out of glass [18:00]
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mircea_popescu you buy 6x6 inch panbes of glass and crash them [18:00]
mircea_popescu thatr's your secret key [18:00]
decimation heh [18:00]
decimation the breakage geometry you mean? [18:01]
mircea_popescu you plug the thing in whatever. [18:01]
mircea_popescu and measure its remaining connections [18:01]
decimation ah I see what you mean. [18:01]
mircea_popescu much better than a pcb, if can be had. [18:01]
asciilifeform decimation: crosstalk and rf [18:02]
mircea_popescu so you know... some people generate their keys at the firing range. some people have a designated bat. some people make a new key after each domestic argument/divorce [18:02]
decimation asciilifeform: sure, but those could be managed [18:02]
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asciilifeform decimation: look into why analogue computer went away. [18:02]
decimation I get it, but I just wanna store some values, not compute derivatives [18:03]
asciilifeform the 'crushed glass secret key' was picked up by academitards as 'physically unclonable function' [18:03]
asciilifeform but it doesn't do any good unless there are 2 of'em (at minimum) [18:03]
asciilifeform (goes without saying that it is only good for symmetric crypto) [18:03]
asciilifeform break a glass rod. [18:04]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform just an exotic way to rng, is in the end what he was trying to build [18:04]
mircea_popescu "take a pcb and scratch it" [18:04]
asciilifeform then sure [18:04]
mircea_popescu necessarily goes to "crush glass pane" [18:04]
asciilifeform just don't be surprised when it stops working when it is wet/cold/hot in the room [18:04]
asciilifeform or if different room [18:04]
mircea_popescu yawell. [18:04]
asciilifeform (see mircea_popescu's old 'dragonfly' article based on my conf-II chat) [18:04]
asciilifeform very often, folks forget just how much analogue strange there is in the world, that is kept (mostly) out of their digital computer [18:05]
decimation actually that gives me another idea: [18:05]
assbot What are Lichtenberg Figures, and how are they Made? ... ( ) [18:05]
decimation could make a lichtenberg figure key and use a camera to distill down into bits [18:06]
asciilifeform decimation: what is the point of it [18:07]
asciilifeform once 'distilled to bits', that'd be your key [18:07]
decimation asciilifeform: yeah I was thinking about generating key in a seperate machine and then 'hand-carving' the pcb to store key [18:07]
asciilifeform the reason why 'physical function' is that it ought to be precisely a ~function~ [18:07]
asciilifeform that can be used as a one-time pad [18:07]
asciilifeform so can 'ask' the glass a 64-bit integer, and get another [18:07]
decimation I'm thinking about ways to manage key material that involve physical devices that can be inspected [18:08]
asciilifeform and your partner behind enemy lines asks same, and gets same answer. [18:08]
asciilifeform decimation: if that's all you want, get a 'sinclair' [18:08]
BingoBoingo BingoBoingo "as was the case with this one." << link missing ? << That's a cazalla [18:08]
decimation asciilifeform: well, also I want to be reliable [18:09]
decimation sinclair uses floppies? [18:09]
asciilifeform can use sd card, with a little soldering [18:09]
asciilifeform incidentally, [18:09]
* asciilifeform has been greatly enjoying [18:09]
assbot The ZX Spectrum ULA: How to design a microcomputer ... ( ) [18:09]
asciilifeform it is a priceless tour of 1980s chip design, among other things [18:09]
decimation oh I thought they used 6502 like everyone else [18:10]
asciilifeform z80 [18:10]
decimation ah [18:10]
asciilifeform the other giant of the '80s [18:10]
asciilifeform anyway, the book is about the i/o chip [18:10]
asciilifeform not the cpu [18:10]
asciilifeform man does not live by cpu alone ! [18:11]
decimation yeah the 'secret sauce' of the commadore was the video chip [18:11]
asciilifeform it was not an era of elusive 'sauces' [18:11]
asciilifeform but overall good design [18:11]
decimation yes. [18:11]
asciilifeform that doesn't reduce to 'xxxx chip' [18:11]
decimation based on that 'bil herd' interview, it sounds like the board designers and chip designers worked in same building, with fab! [18:12]
asciilifeform and consider also that, of all the toy computers, the one with the singularly worst design in every conceivable way, won. [18:12]
decimation because cheap. [18:12]
asciilifeform no, WAS NOT CHEAP [18:12]
asciilifeform either. [18:12]
asciilifeform but bezzle-annointed, yes [18:13]
decimation cheaper than s/360 [18:13]
asciilifeform so it did not matter that it was a stinking pile of shit [18:13]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52911 @ 0.0005037 = 26.6513 BTC [-] {3} [18:13]
asciilifeform wasn't competing with s/360 [18:13]
asciilifeform but with typewriter. [18:13]
asciilifeform and secretary (who did the job 10x better, but...) [18:13]
decimation true. people who wanted 'adult' computers in the 80's, had [18:14]
decimation or at least could get access to one [18:14]
asciilifeform << prices [18:14]
assbot IBM 5150 Personal Computer ... ( ) [18:14]
asciilifeform add a zero or so for modern usd. [18:14]
decimation yeah my dad paid about $1500 in 1989 dollars for x86 pc... 'epson apex' [18:15]
asciilifeform the thing was, in every respect, a 'soviet' production in the stereotypical western sense of the word [18:15]
asciilifeform it was made by folks who did not have any reason whatsoever to give a fuck re: quality or cost. [18:15]
asciilifeform who ~knew~ that they were winners as soon as they popped out of the womb [18:15]
asciilifeform and 'winners', naturally, win [18:15]
asciilifeform the ibm pc, recall, was that abomination where they didn't even bother to use dram chips that passed qa [18:16]
asciilifeform instead, 'deadbugging' several duds over one another [18:16]
asciilifeform to get a close approximation of one working unit [18:16]
decimation and yet still cost $3k 1981 dollars! [18:17]
decimation about $8k 2015 dollars [18:17]
mod6 All: I've put some steps together for installing ubuntu 10.04 & debian 6.0.10 [18:20]
mod6 I've tested installing the iso's indicated on a VM and went through my own steps 2x (once for each OS) [18:20]
mod6 if someone with some spare time can validate my findings that would be great -- these are just the first two of a number of these that need to be discovered/defined [18:21]
mod6 [18:21]
assbot ... ( ) [18:21]
decimation < ascii, entire machine state visible for inspection [18:21]
assbot ... ( ) [18:21]
asciilifeform as on 'univac' [18:22]
asciilifeform and no, not whole state [18:22]
asciilifeform just the regs [18:22]
decimation well, yeah no storage [18:22]
shinohai mod6: I'll do a confirm this week. [18:23]
mod6 shinohai: thanks!! [18:23]
mod6 much appreciated [18:23]
shinohai nw [18:23]
shinohai I haven't got to build that latest yet though, still fails on boost every time. [18:24]
asciilifeform mod6: have you had a chance to build 'rotor' ? [18:26]
mod6 no, not since i couldn't get it to build before. i'll try it again this coming week for sure. [18:26]
asciilifeform mod6: note that the toolchain and deps build only ever needs to be done once, per machine [18:27]
asciilifeform after that, it is precisely the same as working with 'stator' [18:27]
decimation < amusing: "“If you asked somebody in our profession 10 years ago, ‘Is the gorilla happy?’, they would get really upset and say, ‘Why would you ask such an anthropomorphic question?’ ” said Kagan, 57. “But these sort of things now are legitimately a part of scientific study and assessment.”" [18:28]
assbot The identity crisis of the modern zoo - The Boston Globe ... ( ) [18:28]
mod6 asciilifeform: ok, thanks. so noted. [18:28]
mod6 i.e. I dont have to rebuild the buildroot & "universe" every time I want to add a patch, just rebuild 'stator'. [18:29]
decimation you only really need to rebuild bitcoind if that's what you patched [18:29]
asciilifeform aha [18:29]
decimation just make sure you are using the correct paths [18:29]
mod6 yeah, i was trying to say this: <+decimation> you only really need to rebuild bitcoind if that's what you patched [18:29]
decimation one nice thing about 'rotor' system: only one choice of build environment [18:30]
mod6 right. [18:30]
mod6 i like the allure of this. [18:30]
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asciilifeform the main allure, for me, was 1) drepper goes to the furnace where he belongs; no glibc 2) can switch cpu arch by turning a knob [18:31]
mod6 gotcha. [18:31]
shinohai [18:33]
assbot luke-jr comments on Could a cartel of pool operators collude to 51%-attack the blockchain and/or change the protocol? ... ( ) [18:33]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9800 @ 0.00052762 = 5.1707 BTC [+] [18:42]
asciilifeform 'It is mid-boggling that a protocol that "handles assets worth billions of dollars" is defined only by a bloated C++ implementation -- maintaned by one company, that of course will not be responsible for any losses...' [18:54]
asciilifeform lulzy [18:54]
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williamdunne jurov: What would you like on the Eurola website? Starting out with clisp so I'll see if I can get that done as my hello world project [18:59]
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jurov marketplace with orders managed from irc [19:00]
williamdunne Wanna do a brief or summin? [19:02]
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asciilifeform trinque, ben_vulpes, anyone else with 'clang' -- here's an idea, use the graph-walker solrodar used to determine the subset of openssl (see old thread re: same) [19:02]
trinque asciilifeform: maybe discernable with better lcov output too? [19:03]
asciilifeform trinque: see earlier thread today re: coverage [19:04]
trinque the lcov stuff would probably be more helpful with a battery of tests run upon it such as mod6 has discussed [19:04]
asciilifeform just because a line did not execute in ten billion hours does not mean that it could not [19:04]
asciilifeform have to prove that it is unreachable. [19:04]
asciilifeform before it can be cut. [19:04]
trinque yeah, true, this would call for static analysis to know it can be cut [19:04]
asciilifeform which is what i was talking about. [19:04]
jurov doesn't openssl use function pointers? [19:06]
asciilifeform does it ? [19:07]
trinque odeary me [19:07]
* trinque bbl [19:07]
jurov just asking, i wouldn't put it past them [19:07]
williamdunne jurov: I'm not sure how long I'll be around for, but if you drop me a doc outlining what you want I'll have a look at it tomorrow [19:10]
asciilifeform jurov: this kind of thing is at the root of a very old disagreement i have with mircea_popescu [19:10]
asciilifeform jurov: his position, if you recall, is that we are more or less stuck with the turds forever. [19:10]
asciilifeform because no one will ever fully nail down the function of the existing orchestra [19:11]
asciilifeform in such a way as to guarantee 100% compatibility [19:11]
jurov i remember [19:11]
asciilifeform my position is that this is reasonable, but what is unreasonable is to ever have more respect for a program than its author did. [19:11]
jurov williamdunne: eventually. [19:12]
asciilifeform and that if you are using a pile of shit which fits in no one's head, don't be surprised when the inevitable happens [19:13]
asciilifeform and that there is not a magical elixir that absolves you of the need to 'fit in head' [19:13]
asciilifeform all works of man are either 'fits in head' or 'pile of shit', no exceptions [19:13]
asciilifeform (note that i did not specify ~which~ head) [19:14]
asciilifeform but there has to be... ~a~ head. [19:14]
asciilifeform related... [19:24]
asciilifeform 'Overriding and updating old information is something I have to work really hard at. The end result of the way I think and the way the standard is defined is that I immediately saw these massively complex ways to do things that "nobody" understood. Take HyTime and what it calls "architectual forms" -- I vividly remember a long walk around a quiet Tallahassee one summer night with the creator of this concept, when I questione [19:24]
asciilifeform d some of the designs and how it would be implemented, and he was quiet for the longest time before he said that I was probably the first person to have understood what he was _really_ trying to accomplish. That would have been _such_ a great thing if it had been, say, rocket science, but it was not. It was a man-made complexity so great that it had required _months_ of brain-wracking to really get my intuition working. Tha [19:24]
asciilifeform t was the first time I had really serious doubts about the wisdom of SGML's structuring process, because the massive complexity of it all is _completely_ pointless and a result of spreading the semantics so thin that you had to keep mental track of an enormous number of relationships to end up with an idea of what something should do or mean. It does not have to be that way. It was _profoundly_ disappointing to discover that [19:24]
asciilifeform at the end of this long process of grasping something that looked intellectually challenging lie only a complexity that resulted from _rejecting_ simplicity of design at a few crucial points. Hell, it still took me years to figure out what alternatives they _should_ have picked up, and by then it was too late.' [19:25]
asciilifeform ( ) [19:25]
assbot Re: XML and lisp - Naggum cll archive ... ( ) [19:25]
asciilifeform '...But it is the same problem we find in C++. The question to be asked of massive complexity like that is not "what wonderful things did you find out that made this necessary", but "whatever did you _miss_ that made this so horribly complex"? You can sometimes see people who are really, really dumb go about some simple tasks in a way that tells you that they have arrived at their ways of performing it through an incredibly [19:27]
asciilifeform painful process that they are loathe to reopen or examine at all no matter how hard it is to get it right for them.' [19:27]
punkman asciilifeform: all works of man are either 'fits in head' or 'pile of shit', no exceptions << don't some things require more than a single head? [19:33]
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asciilifeform no [19:33]
asciilifeform if something ~requires~ >1 head, it consists of separable things. [19:34]
asciilifeform i happen to believe that we have not yet devised the means for truly separating - conceptually - computer programs [19:35]
asciilifeform this is why, to return to earlier thread, pdp11 programmed by a single mind who writes every single instruction that the machine will ever execute, can be a jewel that is maintained for generations, [19:35]
asciilifeform while pdp11 with unix - loses linefeeds [19:35]
asciilifeform and evolves into what we have now [19:35]
asciilifeform and is a bottomless pit of 'nobody could have foreseen's [19:36]
asciilifeform observe the 'CRITICAL_SECTION' turds in bitcoind [19:37]
asciilifeform are those the work of a fella who truly, deeply understood what the machine is doing? [19:38]
asciilifeform who had a machine for which this claim could be made, even in principle ? [19:38]
asciilifeform or are they something else. [19:38]
punkman clearly not understood considering the number of results in [19:42]
assbot Search Results · GitHub ... ( ) [19:42]
asciilifeform it is a result of the kind of cargocultism driven by justified and maniacal fear that leads, e.g., c programmers to pepper their code with redundant parenthesis [19:43]
asciilifeform (leading to a lifelong phobia of that key on the keyboard) [19:44]
asciilifeform my point, incidentally, was not that satoshi was a tard (though it may be) [19:49]
asciilifeform but that winblowz makes the kind of certainty needed to avoid the 'grasping for the handrails' described earlier, impossible [19:49]
asciilifeform and unix - marginally less so [19:49]
punkman Ada on bare metal then? [19:50]
asciilifeform for example. [19:50]
asciilifeform but also must be very particular, ~which~ metal [19:52]
asciilifeform read the src to linux's bootloader some time [19:52]
asciilifeform can you tell me which lines are actually necessary ? [19:52]
asciilifeform betcha you can't [19:52]
asciilifeform even if you took 'operating systems' at uni [19:52]
asciilifeform for instance, the 'a20 gate' is almost certainly not actually implemented in your chipset [19:53]
asciilifeform yet it is in EVERY MOTHERFUCKING BOOTLOADER on the planet [19:53]
asciilifeform even microshit's [19:53]
asciilifeform because wat if you have a 386, aha. [19:53]
asciilifeform much of this crud is quite like satoshi's 'critical sections' [19:53]
asciilifeform included because author has no fucking idea what is going on [19:53]
asciilifeform and cut&paste, because 'people have come to expect' [19:54]
asciilifeform or 'nobody was ever fired for making bootloader six bytes larger' [19:54]
asciilifeform and this shit adds up [19:55]
asciilifeform the notion that it doesn't, that it doesn't matter whether bootloader is six bytes of liquid shit heavier, [19:55]
asciilifeform is the fundamental lie. [19:55]
asciilifeform all of it - matters. [19:55]
asciilifeform the fact that x86 cpu has idiot ibm-mandated instructions for doing binary-coded-decimal - MATTERS [19:55]
asciilifeform the fact that there is no standardized chipset, and that x86 is really a loose collection of mostly-incompatible shitboxes that somehow pretend to run the same soft - matters. [19:56]
asciilifeform << see also. [19:57]
assbot Logged on 03-04-2015 19:07:33; mircea_popescu: look. whatever whatever may be built as or not, i have two basic expectations. one is, for fucking machinery to behave the same way from night to next evening. the other, albeit weaker, is that if i get a "minimal work" thing i actually have to do minimal work. [19:57]
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* assbot gives voice to kakobrekla [20:03]
kakobrekla The BIOS in many personal computers stores the date and time in BCD because the MC6818 real-time clock chip used in the original IBM PC AT motherboard provided the time encoded in BCD. < heh [20:04]
kakobrekla compatible with the pyramids or what was it [20:05]
mircea_popescu contemptible with the pyramids. [20:07]
mircea_popescu < dragonfly article. [20:15]
assbot The complexity of life, a triad on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( ) [20:15]
mircea_popescu << fucking monitor was like 1200, cca 1985-86 [20:17]
assbot Logged on 02-08-2015 21:15:16; decimation: yeah my dad paid about $1500 in 1989 dollars for x86 pc... 'epson apex' [20:17]
mircea_popescu or 120k of the romanian lei of the time. 50 or so salaries. [20:17]
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mircea_popescu heh Luke-Jr fighting a loser's battle with his "bitcoin core" matters twu faith. [20:21]
mircea_popescu hey midnightmagic ask me things about things will you. [20:23]
mircea_popescu << total win. [20:23]
assbot Logged on 02-08-2015 22:00:29; jurov: marketplace with orders managed from irc [20:23]
mircea_popescu if jurov finally gets a proper chat system built in, and we have a chat bot that does auction lists etc... [20:24]
mircea_popescu eulora is suddenly more advanced than the state of new york. [20:24]
mircea_popescu << the problem is this : you have to verify old blocks. all of them, al lthe way to genesis. if you do not, for whatever reason, you are on an alt. and if you're going to make an alt, better make it properly and deliberately rather than the idiot woman "i had too much too drink so things happened" approach. [20:26]
assbot Logged on 02-08-2015 22:11:06; asciilifeform: jurov: his position, if you recall, is that we are more or less stuck with the turds forever. [20:26]
mircea_popescu but that aside, naggum's via alf point re complexity being usually and generally as a safe bet the result of someone missing the thinkboat certainly stands resplendent on its own feet. [20:29]
mircea_popescu << no, not "because what if you have a 386" but because a) does it work as is ? and b) do we know anyone who could cut it out and not introduce a bug ? [20:31]
assbot Logged on 02-08-2015 22:53:44; asciilifeform: because wat if you have a 386, aha. [20:31]
mircea_popescu same reason you have an appendix. [20:31]
mircea_popescu "hurts nothing and too hard to take out" [20:31]
scoopbot_revived The very very jealous with envy thing, part deux. [20:32]
asciilifeform yes, yes appendix. [20:34]
asciilifeform problem is, we're drowning in appendices [20:34]
asciilifeform and they all have appendicitis. [20:34]
mircea_popescu so it is. [20:35]
mircea_popescu every generation has this, an overpowering, indomitable reason why the previous one fails to matter. [20:35]
mircea_popescu for kids born in the 80s when talking to their parents it's "shut the fuck up, you fucked women in a single hole your entire life" [20:36]
asciilifeform as for the deliberate alt, it is somewhat like the ancient discussion about whether one would rather be 'scanned in' and shot and ~then~ replaced by the robot running the sim, or to have a neuron at a time replaced with electric one [20:36]
mircea_popescu and it stands. no man can look you in the face past that, for he's a sort of a toy. [20:36]
asciilifeform same result, but many more takers for the latter than the former. [20:36]
mircea_popescu but it goes all the way to the fucking celts, you knoiw, "you never had iron tools. everything you say, and everything you think you mean or stand for is therefore invalid" [20:37]
mircea_popescu perhaps this is the next one. [20:37]
asciilifeform ^ well no shit [20:37]
mircea_popescu "you can't code. fuck you." [20:37]
asciilifeform these words are uttered, yes, today. by childrenz who 'code' php... [20:37]
mircea_popescu it's not fucking magic, yo. utterance is not the glue that makes it stick. [20:37]
asciilifeform i see no glue, thus far. only the utterance. [20:38]
mircea_popescu we're discussing the future. [20:38]
mircea_popescu the reason you can not see the substance of the future should be apparent. [20:38]
asciilifeform 'what did the future ever do for me' (tm) (r) [20:38]
mircea_popescu >D [20:38]
mircea_popescu off to eat bbl [20:38]
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kakobrekla It seems that evolution had not merely selected the best code for the task, it had also advocated those programs which took advantage of the electromagnetic quirks of that specific microchip environment. The five separate logic cells were clearly crucial to the chip’s operation, but they were interacting with the main circuitry through some unorthodox method < heh [20:48]
kakobrekla 'Furthermore, the final program did not work reliably when it was loaded onto other FPGAs of the same type.' < fun [20:49]
BingoBoingo [20:50]
assbot losermcfail comments on A single political entity effectively has 57% control over Bitcoin's hashpower. What do we do about it? ... ( ) [20:50]
hanbot sounds like what asciilifeform was talking about. [20:50]
punkman lol [21:06]
assbot ergofobe comments on A single political entity effectively has 57% control over Bitcoin's hashpower. What do we do about it? ... ( ) [21:06]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42196 @ 0.00054474 = 22.9858 BTC [+] {2} [21:08]
* CheckDavid has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) [21:29]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31300 @ 0.00054499 = 17.0582 BTC [+] {3} [21:32]
asciilifeform << philippino up the thread, naturally [21:38]
assbot A single political entity effectively has 57% control over Bitcoin's hashpower. What do we do about it? : Bitcoin ... ( ) [21:38]
* CheckDavid (uid14990@gateway/web/ has joined #bitcoin-assets [21:39]
mircea_popescu kinda sad roi really. [21:41]
mircea_popescu but what do i know. [21:41]
asciilifeform which i [21:42]
mircea_popescu < [21:42]
asciilifeform ah [21:42]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: re: earlier and recurrent mempool thread: consider this: [21:45]
assbot Satoshi ... ( ) [21:45]
asciilifeform classical apparatus has a data structure, 'mapPriority', [21:45]
assbot Satoshi identifier search: mapPriority ... ( ) [21:45]
mircea_popescu dPriority /= ::GetSerializeSize(tx, SER_NETWORK); [21:45]
asciilifeform sum(valuein * age) / txsize [21:45]
mircea_popescu right [21:45]
mircea_popescu course this is mining priority neh ? [21:46]
asciilifeform which is odd, does not correspond to the formula given [21:46]
asciilifeform or hm, divided, yes [21:46]
asciilifeform but anyway, it is used when conjuring up a block, aha [21:46]
mircea_popescu dPriority += (double)nValueIn * nConf; << seems it does [21:46]
mircea_popescu aha. [21:46]
asciilifeform can just as easily use when 1) evicting 2) sharing inventory [21:46]
mircea_popescu we don't give a shit about agwe [21:47]
asciilifeform yes! [21:47]
mircea_popescu i specifically chose to ignore this. [21:47]
asciilifeform whole point of this conversation is that i wanted to say this [21:47]
mircea_popescu a ok [21:47]
mircea_popescu looky : there are parts where we may... ever so slightly... deviate. [21:47]
mircea_popescu take what you can. [21:47]
asciilifeform well, and one other thing - what does payware node feed non-payers ? [21:47]
asciilifeform anything? [21:47]
asciilifeform random ordering? [21:47]
mircea_popescu i have been thinking about it. [21:48]
asciilifeform same [21:48]
mircea_popescu it's not a trivial question [21:48]
asciilifeform was in a hammock for some hours earlier, thinking about only this. [21:48]
mircea_popescu nothing may be it. [21:48]
mircea_popescu has some historical support anyway [21:49]
asciilifeform if nothing, how to ramp up? [21:49]
mircea_popescu myeah. [21:49]
asciilifeform (right now this would have the effect of essentially unplugging my node) [21:49]
mircea_popescu of course it could fed the discarded txn [21:49]
asciilifeform whereas if you feed the hobos when paying folks aren't bidding, you get essentially same situation as fees [21:50]
asciilifeform where hobos 'come to expect' [21:50]
asciilifeform and the overall friction of their presence is a permanent irritant [21:50]
asciilifeform if we feed the hobos the pigshit end of the priority queue, they simply have an incentive to run away to any other node [21:50]
mircea_popescu to make sure : your notion of "paying" includes "peers that relay txn that are worthy of going in our pool", correct ? [21:50]
asciilifeform which feeds unsorted [21:50]
mircea_popescu so what's wrong with this incentive ? [21:51]
asciilifeform leaving this conundrum aside [21:51]
asciilifeform because it remains unspecified how to implement any notion of 'peers that bring good tx' [21:51]
asciilifeform because peers have no identity [21:51]
mircea_popescu ip. [21:51]
asciilifeform ip is ephemeral [21:51]
asciilifeform and comms are unauthenticated. [21:51]
mircea_popescu ip! [21:51]
mircea_popescu the "signed" option can be in v2.0 [21:52]
asciilifeform the buggerz already have infrastructure set up for diddling bitcoin net, all they gotta do now is drop in shit tx [21:52]
mircea_popescu have a special, encrypted protocol. fix the "magic hole" issue too [21:52]
asciilifeform that's sorta what i was doing in the hammock [21:52]
mircea_popescu too soon, srsly. [21:52]
asciilifeform in my head! [21:52]
mircea_popescu alright. [21:52]
asciilifeform the problem i ~would~ like to solve near-term is 'node demands infinite ram' [21:53]
asciilifeform this has to die. [21:53]
asciilifeform how - is secondary [21:53]
mircea_popescu the most important point of military strategy is that a weak position which the enemy doesn't invest is not really weak in any sense. this is the meaning of napoleon's "never interrupt" [21:53]
asciilifeform converse of this is that weak position enemy ~does~ invest in, means death. [21:53]
mircea_popescu nah. [21:54]
mircea_popescu you doin't actually want to kill. [21:54]
asciilifeform 'what you don't know about will not only hurt you, but eat you for lunch and ask for seconds' (tm) (r) [21:54]
mircea_popescu ever read any balzac incidentally ? [21:54]
asciilifeform nope [21:54]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28150 @ 0.000545 = 15.3418 BTC [+] {2} [21:54]
asciilifeform though iirc there is one in my queue [21:54]
mircea_popescu he's worth a read, man had a knack for comprehendingsocial science. [21:55]
asciilifeform on account of some earlier mircea_popescuism [21:55]
mircea_popescu anyway, he has a story about doesn't matter what, in which the setting is that two groups have licenses to print newspapers in some small town [21:55]
mircea_popescu one of them dominates, but takes care the other one (some widow, buncha incompetent losers) doesn't outright go out of business [21:55]
mircea_popescu for the obvious reason. [21:55]
asciilifeform microshit&apple, 1990s [21:55]
asciilifeform aha [21:55]
mircea_popescu the casual, obvious manner in which he treats this otherwise subtle point really stuck with me. 1800s! man got it. [21:56]
mircea_popescu he also has an excellent depiction of the exact mechanics of inheritance in eugenie grandet [21:57]
mircea_popescu it's quite simple : if you're old but somehow "owner", you will get so fucking raped you'll deplore the protections of that "ownership". [21:57]
asciilifeform the gas/car dichotomy, aha [21:57]
mircea_popescu pretty much every amateur thinker / world saver captive in english as his sole language would benefit immensely from reading balzac. whereas the clueful might really enjoy the elegant display he makes of things. [21:58]
asciilifeform momentarily back to : at this point i very much regard the notion of 'so-and-so is an ip, and at this moment he is Worthy, and now let's try to calculate when he isn't...' as deeply mistaken. [22:01]
assbot Logged on 03-08-2015 00:51:09; mircea_popescu: to make sure : your notion of "paying" includes "peers that relay txn that are worthy of going in our pool", correct ? [22:01]
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asciilifeform it has to run like normal wot. [22:01]
mircea_popescu "has" . why has. [22:01]
asciilifeform because crypto [22:01]
punkman can just vpn? [22:01]
asciilifeform because the comms have to be private and authenticated. and these concepts have no meaning when dealing with unknowns. [22:02]
scoopbot_revived The 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9 Sunday event [22:02]
mircea_popescu can we carry this discussion in practical terms ? [22:03]
mircea_popescu someone is going to steal my ip ? [22:03]
asciilifeform not sure how to make it more intensely practical [22:03]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: no, someone will mitm the link [22:03]
asciilifeform just as is happening to your box now, and mine [22:03]
asciilifeform just that now they are contenting themselves with nulling the payloads. [22:03]
asciilifeform do i have to describe here how mitm works? draw a picture ? [22:04]
asciilifeform unlike the rest of bitcoin, mempool ~is~ sensitive to mitm and other real-time issues [22:05]
shinohai with crayons perhaps? [22:05]
asciilifeform yes, satoshi was concerned only that blocks are agreed on and that the constituent tx are genuine, etc [22:05]
asciilifeform but we are speaking of nodes trading mempool sorted by minability value [22:05]
asciilifeform this is inherently time-sensitive and diddlable (if only in the pure withholding sense) [22:05]
mircea_popescu hm [22:06]
asciilifeform not to mention the fact that the payload itself has value! [22:06]
mircea_popescu i find no counters to summon. [22:06]
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asciilifeform as i understand now, we are converging on something quite like (what is known of) the chinese approach. [22:07]
mircea_popescu indeed [22:07]
asciilifeform where the peers actually drink beer (or what do they drink there?) together [22:08]
mircea_popescu this is illusory, my well placed flies on the wall tell me. [22:08]
mircea_popescu i nfact, they don't actually trust each other enough to share... ips [22:08]
asciilifeform unsurprising. but they share tx? [22:08]
mircea_popescu but yes, meta-chinese, whatever. [22:08]
mircea_popescu they maybe do. [22:08]
mircea_popescu oriental love. [22:08]
asciilifeform i suppose meta-china is where they mine with actual nodes [22:08]
asciilifeform instead of 'spv' or whatever thing named after herpes virus [22:09]
mircea_popescu aptly named. [22:09]
mircea_popescu fucking americans and their macdonalds. [22:09]
mircea_popescu "oh you know what we could do to make this meal shittier ? shit in it!" [22:09]
mircea_popescu no shit, sherlick. [22:09]
asciilifeform china: 'we already discovered it 5,000 yrs ago. here, have some fried rat turd dumpling' [22:09]
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mircea_popescu spv nodes. because sometime you will want to pretend you're wearing a greatcoat and only have a q-tip [22:10]
mircea_popescu and that sometime is right now and that someone is most everyone and this somehow matters now. [22:11]
mircea_popescu "because we haven't joined the sv circus to not deliver huge numbers devoid of any content or meaning!!1" as hearn aptly put it. [22:11]
asciilifeform the sheer monumental stupidity of this floored me, and i am still half-convinced that it is disinfo somehow [22:11]
asciilifeform what, no one in cn can score a sat dish ? [22:12]
mircea_popescu it's not anymore disinfo than the "civil rights movement" [22:12]
asciilifeform and a contract with, fuck, norway ? [22:12]
mircea_popescu you know, us faking its own death. [22:12]
* asciilifeform was - until recently - labouring under the notion that cn was quite alive [22:13]
mircea_popescu thin live layer at the top, exactly like the froth of 90s moscow. [22:13]
mircea_popescu peat underneath. [22:14]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19706 @ 0.000545 = 10.7398 BTC [+] [22:14]
* alaricsp ( has joined #bitcoin-assets [22:14]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22944 @ 0.00055531 = 12.741 BTC [+] {3} [22:15]
mircea_popescu lol wikipedia thinks george sand was a "feminist" writer [22:18]
mircea_popescu lawd have mercy. [22:18]
mircea_popescu << got the sexpr ? hm ? HM ? [22:33]
assbot The 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9 Sunday event on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( ) [22:33]
punkman !up alaricsp [22:34]
* assbot gives voice to alaricsp [22:34]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6350 @ 0.00055744 = 3.5397 BTC [+] {3} [22:40]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14163 @ 0.00055771 = 7.8988 BTC [+] [22:58]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6306 @ 0.00054474 = 3.4351 BTC [-] [23:03]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes, mod6, trinque: [23:04]
assbot callcatcher: collect functions/methods defined and subtract called/referenced ... ( ) [23:04]
* assbot removes voice from alaricsp [23:05]
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asciilifeform << wasn't aware that it was anything but the weevils eating carcass of dead dragon, top to bottom [23:07]
assbot Logged on 03-08-2015 01:14:02; mircea_popescu: thin live layer at the top, exactly like the froth of 90s moscow. [23:07]
asciilifeform what layer. [23:07]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20100 @ 0.00053881 = 10.8301 BTC [-] {3} [23:10]
* WolfGoethe has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: [23:11]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20350 @ 0.00053792 = 10.9467 BTC [-] {3} [23:16]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28050 @ 0.00053682 = 15.0578 BTC [-] {3} [23:19]
decimation 01:12 <+asciilifeform> the sheer monumental stupidity of this floored me, and i am still half-convinced that it is disinfo somehow < at some point we are gonna run our own mining corp too :( [23:25]
asciilifeform decimation: << see also [23:29]
assbot Logged on 01-08-2015 00:37:07; mircea_popescu: suppose we're in the park. "throw the crumbs over there" "but the birds won't see them" "doesn't matter, we're the only things that matter here" "but we don't cluck" [23:29]
decimation heh [23:31]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34735 @ 0.00052119 = 18.1035 BTC [-] [23:32]
decimation asciilifeform: related: [23:41]
assbot Logged on 25-06-2015 04:45:12; decimation: asciilifeform: why would ulbricht keep detailed records of his incriminating evidence on his laptop? [23:41]
assbot Logged on 25-06-2015 04:45:22; asciilifeform: decimation: because retardation? [23:41]
assbot Logged on 25-06-2015 04:45:26; decimation: exactly. [23:41]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25300 @ 0.00050914 = 12.8812 BTC [-] {5} [23:49]
decimation the longer I live, the more dubious I am of the initial assumption that 'enemy plays hand to his maximum advantage' [23:51]
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decimation granted, sometimes you gotta think that way for strategic reasons, but it often misleads [23:52]
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Category: Logs
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