Forum logs for 30 Jun 2016

Monday, 16 March, Year 12 d.Tr. | Author:
asciilifeform: << it leaks [00:01]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 03:40 mircea_popescu: is it actually efficient re memory usage ? anyone know specifically ? [00:01]
asciilifeform: most folks dun notice , given as it exits [00:01]
BingoBoingo: ticker --market all --currency rmb [00:10]
gribble: BTCChina BTCRMB last: 4244.28, vol: 37972.96650000 | Volume-weighted last average: 4244.28 [00:10]
phf: "A 10-year-old Girl Applied to the Paris Summer Innovation Fellowship (" [00:20]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform myeah, im finding. [00:21]
asciilifeform: did she tear up old alarm clock using ruby on rails and get medal from obummer yet ? [00:21]
phf: “The streets of Paris are sad. I want to build a robot that will make them happy again. I’ve already starting learning how to code on Thymio robots, but I have trouble making it work. I want to join the program so the mentors can help me.” [00:22]
mircea_popescu: god [00:23]
phf: "Welcome aboard our spaceship, Eva. We’re very much looking forward to meeting you in person. [00:23]
phf: All the best from Paris, [00:23]
phf: Kat Borlongan [00:23]
phf: Founding Partner, Five by Five" [00:23]
phf: "A School Where the Students Hire Their Teachers (" [00:24]
asciilifeform: bhhhrrrlf [00:25]
phf: "Urbit Is Building a 'Virtual Galaxy' for Bitcoin Nodes (" [00:26]
phf: "Are You an Awesome Product Designer? LeadGenius (YC S11) Is Hiring (" [00:26]
phf: i have a bunch of sites blocked on my router, google's and facebook's ip ranges, reddit, hackernews, but sometimes i load them up in hidemyass to see how things are on the other side of the world [00:28]
asciilifeform: snoretronic [00:30]
pete_dushenski: more like lulztronic [00:31]
pete_dushenski: this, actually, is a useful heuristic : alf sees snore --> pete sees lulz [00:32]
asciilifeform: snulz. [00:32]
* asciilifeform bbl [00:32]
phf: yeah, it's pretty funny for couple of minutes [00:33]
pete_dushenski: like most stand-up since 2000 [00:35]
phf: a conversation about racism on "urwid crowdsale" thread is also quite piquant [00:40]
phf: "As a not-completely-cynical participant in a democratic society and a half-assed amateur philosopher, I’m about as turned off by Yarvin as I could be." [00:41]
phf: etc. [00:41]
mircea_popescu: aww. [00:41]
phf: "We built voice modulation to mask gender in technical interviews. Here’s what happened. Posted by user Aline Lerner" [00:44]
* pete_dushenski feels himself becoming ryan gosling's character in 'the believer' [00:45]
phf: i'll spoil it for you, ""Contrary to what we expected, masking gender had no effect on interview performance" [00:47]
* pete_dushenski to self-loathing slumber [00:51]
mircea_popescu: lol! [01:04]
trinque: IRC's rate-limiting is a bummer. [01:16]
trinque: I was going to add commands to dump inward and outward reputation for a given nick, but neh [01:16]
trinque: would take minutes for some of us [01:16]
trinque: I put the blame on us ending up with the idiotic web, REST APIs, and etc squarely on IRC having been designed by monkeys [01:17]
trinque: command line > * [01:17]
trinque: help us alfie-wan kenobi you're our only hope [01:18]
mircea_popescu: trinque could just put it in wotpaste no ? [01:19]
trinque: yeah that's what I'm going to do instead [01:19]
phf: you kind of need to write a graph walker, and since you're doing it in sql, i don't even know how to make it not suck [01:19]
trinque: for gettrust I just join the same table twice [01:20]
trinque: can actually do it recursively using pgsql magic if I needed [01:20]
trinque: say you wanted Ln [01:20]
phf: i don't want to know! it's much nicer when the whole thing's in memory :> [01:21]
trinque: lol, I didn't say this was pretty sausage [01:21]
phf: i have a backlog of making bot pull from backup logger in case of disconnect, which is the last bit before auto-reconnecting-bot [01:22]
phf: and then i want to make search case-insensitive, which turned out to be iffy with boyermoore [01:22]
phf: and THEN i'm going to do wot [01:22]
phf: so if anyone wants to swoop in and implement it [01:23]
trinque: two new commands that dump sexp data: [02:17]
trinque: $ratings trinque [02:17]
deedbot: [02:17]
trinque: $reputation trinque [02:17]
deedbot: [02:17]
mircea_popescu: nb! [02:29]
trinque: phf: how do I get prin1 (or something more sensible) to barf an sexp with a euro symbol in it? [02:29]
trinque: it's bitching about that. after which I will have a $wot command that pastes the whole thing [02:29]
trinque: ah derp it's the paste uploader barfing. [02:37]
trinque: ben_vulpes: ey is there a max size of a paste? [02:41]
ben_vulpes: huh excellent q [02:42]
trinque: $reputation trinque [02:42]
deedbot: [02:42]
trinque: that works [02:42]
trinque: $wot [02:42]
deedbot: [02:42]
trinque: boom [02:43]
ben_vulpes: oblige with a skosh more detail? [02:44]
trinque: both use the same "throw this here paste at mr ben_vulpes" function [02:44]
trinque: just $wot is massive [02:44]
ben_vulpes: ah [02:44]
ben_vulpes: paste's logging is...primitive. [02:45]
ben_vulpes: intrigued to see what the response looks like. [02:45]
trinque: k lemme copy teh data down to dev box [02:46]
trinque: thing's like 2.5mb btw [02:47]
trinque: ben_vulpes: 413 Request Entity Too Large [02:50]
trinque: prolly a knob on your nginx or w/e [02:50]
trinque: then perhaps also whatever thinger is running your proggy [02:50]
trinque: yeh that came from nginx [02:51]
trinque: client_max_body_size 4M [02:52]
trinque: that will be enough for a bit [02:52]
ben_vulpes: ty trinque will diddle [03:19]
jurov: [06:39]
jurov: Mr. Wu and the other mining pool operators in China have often seemed somewhat surprised, and even unhappy, that their investments have given them decision-making power within the Bitcoin network. “Miners are the hardware guys. [06:40]
jurov: Why are you asking us about software?” is the line that Mr. Ng said he often hears from miners. [06:40]
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: << hopefully not one of those expensive pets. [08:03]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 03:32 asciilifeform: pet has 0 income [08:03]
shinohai: later tell BingoBoingo Preeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet [08:25]
gribble: The operation succeeded. [08:25]
BingoBoingo: ty shinohai [08:50]
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron hey listen, your latest posts inspired me, an' now i have a project for you. [08:51]
mircea_popescu: i want you to research the legal status of a registered church in the us, as well as the practicalities of registering one. this is a serious project, and i expect 100s of hours spent reading up on it. gpgram me about it. [08:51]
shinohai: ty BingoBoingo send donations for the designated shitting street to 1preetzHWEUfmGuW5ast5hMTJNYU1bmGo [08:51]
BingoBoingo: lol is that an actual address you have key 4? [08:51]
shinohai: lol yeah I actually was going to put it up on bitfunder but naturally got rejected. [08:52]
shinohai: I am seriously researching buying some cheap field in India for this purpose [08:53]
mircea_popescu: shinohai which purpose is this ? [08:54]
shinohai: For the purpose of getting a designated shitting street named after Preeeeeet. [08:54]
mircea_popescu: lmao [08:55]
deedbot: [Qntra] Preet Indicts Hondurans In Honduras - [08:56]
thestringpuller: bitfunder is still a thing? [08:57]
BingoBoingo: Is authentic? [09:00]
asciilifeform: 'Additionally, information is not available to the general public who may not be aware that they are on such a list, but whose bank accounts and business transactions may be cancelled without warning or recourse. Banks are not required by law to provide consumers with a reason for account closures, and World-Check has a binding secrecy clause for users of the service.' [09:01]
mircea_popescu: heh [09:02]
shinohai: BingoBoingo: s/handing/handed/g ? [09:02]
BingoBoingo: ty fxd [09:03]
asciilifeform: not, afaik, actually leaked. [09:04]
asciilifeform: just dangled by some 'responsible' fuckhead. [09:04]
shinohai: In other news, r/btc is celebrating this morning imagining that angry miners will soon adopt Classic and usher in the fork. [09:04]
shinohai: <<< archived [09:05]
thestringpuller: funny how it's just some random white d00d on 8btc [09:05]
shinohai: kek [09:06]
asciilifeform: << this ~just might~ be one of those 'bmore real estate' animals, where, e.g., scientology gets away with it and laughs all the way to the bank, but 'peyote church' - doesn't [09:07]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 12:51 mircea_popescu: i want you to research the legal status of a registered church in the us, as well as the practicalities of registering one. this is a serious project, and i expect 100s of hours spent reading up on it. gpgram me about it. [09:07]
asciilifeform: as evidence - obummer recently had the tax-exemption of a number of quite standard christian churches revoked, on account of their opposition to obummerism. beyond a little bit of bad press, nothing happened. [09:08]
asciilifeform: << very cheap pet. but i sometimes get it pet treat [09:09]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 12:03 thestringpuller: asciilifeform: << hopefully not one of those expensive pets. [09:09]
asciilifeform: << neato. do we have 'rated' command, so the thing can be in the l0gz ? [09:10]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 06:42 trinque: $reputation trinque [09:10]
shinohai: $rated trinque [09:11]
deedbot: shinohai rated trinque 2 at 2016/05/16 07:03:40 << [09:11]
asciilifeform: ah ok [09:11]
shinohai: trinque must have moved deedbot to new home, seems a bit more responsive of late. [09:12]
asciilifeform: << 'we just wanted!111111' [09:12]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 10:40 jurov: Why are you asking us about software?” is the line that Mr. Ng said he often hears from miners. [09:12]
asciilifeform: (^ folks who 'just want' are quite vulnerable to 'helpers' who will 'help us to do what we just want..' in return for 'small favour') [09:12]
mircea_popescu: shinohai soon, jam! [09:14]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if that's true, we're exactly the gang for it. match made in heaven. [09:14]
mircea_popescu: $up reydev [09:14]
deedbot: reydev voiced for 30 minutes. [09:14]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: which true [09:18]
mircea_popescu: your comments re church. [09:18]
asciilifeform: ah [09:18]
asciilifeform: my observation was that mircea_popescu can indeed put 'pope' on his business card, right now!1111 - but to be ~untaxed~ pope in usgschwitz, you gotta be in favour with the current clitler [09:19]
reydev: hey this seems to be kind of the continuation of the #bitcoin-assets chan right? [09:19]
mircea_popescu: something like that. [09:19]
reydev: kudos if one of you guys was really behind the ether thing [09:20]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform let's see about that. either it's not the case, in which case we now have a us church, or it is the case, in which case we have yet another harpoon in the whale's back. [09:20]
reydev: strong [09:20]
reydev: guess ill be lurking some more [09:21]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: worth a shot. will be good for a boatload of lulz in either case [09:21]
shinohai: Church of Subgenius is registered church, why not trilema? [09:22]
mircea_popescu: aha. besides, he's just the man to do it. [09:22]
reydev: by the way is the republic planning to ever have a standing army ^_^ [09:22]
mircea_popescu: shinohai kinda why i put this in the open, so people can come up with a good name maybe. [09:22]
mircea_popescu: reydev not unless it looks like the mage girls in your favourite mmorpg. [09:22]
reydev: seems like a missing piece to the puzzle tho... [09:23]
reydev: anyhow, ive nothing useful to add for now, ill do some catching up in the logs etc... [09:23]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the basic usgology of this, [09:24]
mircea_popescu: << armor ftw. [09:24]
asciilifeform: there is also a bookcase-sized case law, i will leave it for danielpbarron [09:25]
mircea_popescu: aha. [09:25]
reydev: oh yeah, was a new WoT formed for this channel? [09:27]
mircea_popescu: deedbot oversees the wot. [09:27]
reydev: does this mean the stuff carried over from assets [09:28]
mircea_popescu: yeah [09:28]
reydev: k [09:28]
shinohai: Did you read these lulz asciilifeform ? [09:35]
mircea_popescu: "the $(cause du jour) needs $(aspie 14% group sponsoring the article)" [09:36]
asciilifeform: shinohai: nope and it dun want to display here [09:36]
asciilifeform: 'subscribe or sign in' [09:36]
danielpbarron: mircea_popescu, you want me to gpgram you now or after? [09:36]
asciilifeform: shinohai: loads [09:37]
shinohai: wsj has weak paywall. Google headline, then click result for paywall free experience. [09:37]
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron at any point. [09:37]
danielpbarron: kk [09:38]
shinohai: $up reydev [09:48]
deedbot: reydev voiced for 30 minutes. [09:48]
mod6: Mornin' [10:04]
* shinohai waves at mod6 [10:05]
reydev: so, where are the web of trust ratings stored by the way... as in, who controls the database [10:06]
thestringpuller: reydev: trinque does [10:06]
reydev: ok, so one has to trust trinque in a sense [10:07]
reydev: to trust the web [10:07]
mircea_popescu: aaand in other "vigourous copulation with children may result in ophisthotonus through splanchnic nerve cascade" news, [10:08]
mircea_popescu: reydev yeah. one can also verify, for instance via [10:09]
mircea_popescu: $s "$rate" [10:09]
a111: 75 results for "\"$rate\"",$rate%22 [10:09]
thestringpuller: wind 9 [10:10]
thestringpuller: fuck you irssi [10:10]
reydev: im kind of interested in the implementation details, is it something he slapped together himself or is it an open source thing by any chance [10:13]
thestringpuller: well you technically don't have to trust trinque. for the people you've rated, you can just ask them directly when you do gettrust about the rating in question. so if trinque did manipulate the ratings in someway, people using the web of trust correctly would eventually uncover "the errors" [10:16]
mircea_popescu: reydev he did in fact slap it together himself more generally "open source" in the general, github-y, "copy/paste me but don't ever read me!" sense is not much of a republican value. which isn't to say that you can't get at the code, but it is to say you can't expect to just find it online. if you got questions, ask teh lord in question. [10:16]
mircea_popescu: code is now personal! [10:16]
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: "copy/paste me but don't ever read me!" << *sigh* In fact this just happened today. Developer tells me, "Hey copy this snipped into the codebase from github". I respond with, "Have you read the code?" They tell me, "Nope. But it works!" So guess who is stuck reading the code... [10:27]
mircea_popescu: yeah well. the whole "open source/free software" delusion has gone long enough time to take it behind the bikeshed and put a bullet in its brain. leaving aside the entirely misguided communist nonsense of stallman, which is already discussed int he logs, look at what open source did for ethereum, since he mentioned it. [10:28]
mircea_popescu: NOBODY fucking read it. not even the two idiots writing it. then AFTER i publish on trilema, suddenly it's sexy, they get jealous of all the exposure and find various other holes. [10:29]
thestringpuller: Ironically, it'll be some Mt.Gox scandal arising from that when you find out one of the developers was behind the heist. [10:29]
mircea_popescu: not one bothering to mention that hey, i got inspired by mp, and look, the prediction he made was in fact correct : there WERE more holes. which circumstance clears any possible objection to the whole process being jealousy driven. [10:30]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: don't forget the inevitable next stage, where they develop the delusion of having found ~all~ of the possible ones [10:30]
mircea_popescu: well, this isn't going to go anywhere, open source is a method to bolt shut doors of stables after horses left. [10:30]
mircea_popescu: take openssh, EXACT same process. [10:30]
mircea_popescu: the value of open source is actually negative, it's a wealth destruction mechanism. [10:30]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform obviously. because you know, "ethereum hole" is no longer google-trending. so therefore they must have. [10:31]
mircea_popescu: basically they've poured 100k a head in "college education" so that thousands of them together can replicate the brain of an amphibian. [10:31]
asciilifeform: i still say that source availability is a red herring here [10:31]
mircea_popescu: as long as light shines on it, it moves around. [10:31]
thestringpuller: the value of open source is actually negative << it didn't start off that way... the early 90's were an okay time... [10:31]
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller in this sense the first inch of any stake is pleasurable. [10:31]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the error of os is that it predicates upon "anyone". [10:32]
asciilifeform: publication of a gnarly ball of cpp makes very little difference. [10:32]
mircea_popescu: what happens when you put "anyone" in your soup is you get a soup only "anyone" would ever eat, after the fashion he eats it. [10:32]
asciilifeform: it is ~impossible to ~actually understand~ it. [10:32]
asciilifeform: esp. if you include the 10,001km of library entrails. [10:32]
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: perhaps. but i think its as simple as "adding idiots to something good ruins it". usenet was similar... [10:33]
thestringpuller: AOL thought it was a good idea to open flood gates. voila usenet ruined over night. [10:33]
phf: thestringpuller: that's called stackoverflow development, and it's ~the~ way development is done now [10:36]
asciilifeform: all of this being said, if anyone expects me to run something on local box without publishing plausibly-readable source i can build it from, he is smoking dope. [10:36]
asciilifeform: it is ~minimal~ bar. [10:36]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i think on the lowest level complexity actually has a positive perceived value. "check out all the complex shit i <<handle>>". much like kids in the same age bracket / cultural space in africa laud themselves with their voodoo accomplishments. [10:36]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: [10:37]
a111: Logged on 2015-12-21 05:15 asciilifeform: << 'programmers get off on complexity the way weight lifters get off on weight' [10:37]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform 1) nobody of the "background and experience in management experience spawns many years" derps running ethereum built from source, or COULD build from source. i've seen enough of those lolz in eulora to have a pretty close idea 2. nobody's asking you to run trinque's shit on your box, so there's a difference here. but 1 and 2 aside, absofuckinglutely wtf. this isn't about tivoization of code. [10:37]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform exactly so. [10:38]
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: well planeshift was pretty much written by people smoking dope while playing runescape... [10:38]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: well yes, wasn't speaking of trinque's item, or similar remotely-operated gadgets [10:38]
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller eulora build process is actually quite painless, and has ~nothing in common with trying to build planeshift, other than some dependencies. [10:39]
asciilifeform: but distinguishing 'if you want me to run this on my iron, let's have the source' from 'open sores movement' [10:39]
phf: thestringpuller: and requires extensive training to undo, for example i make sure all my devs have copies of the documentation for relevant code on their machines, and direct their attention to it whenever i can. you'd be surprised™ how many people don't even know where the docs for their framework etc. are [10:39]
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: the original gutting process was probably painful. [10:39]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in any case, while the value of "bright young fellow wants to learn boyer-moore through checking out phf's code" is there i'm not about to push you to publish phuctor code for some vague fetishist love of foss. which i don't have. [10:40]
mircea_popescu: basically, these concerns previously glued together in o'reilly brand duct tape just came apart, and will have to be re-negotiated socially. [10:40]
asciilifeform: i posted all the interesting parts anyway [10:40]
mircea_popescu: discussing teh principle of the thing moar than the cases i exemplify with. [10:41]
asciilifeform: well yes. [10:41]
thestringpuller: phf: ah. stackoverflow development. That's a good phrase. devs tend to be lazy, so when something breaks and stackoverflow has a solution they put they put a bandaid over wounds that require stitches and eventually someone sane has to sit down and deturdify the mess. [10:41]
thestringpuller: "code review" sometimes help, but people will usually bypass code reviews to get something shipped more quickly. [10:42]
thestringpuller: it's just part of working with sewage I guess. :( [10:42]
phf: well, linus gave us a pretty good solution. sit on pull requests, and abuse people when they submit shit [10:45]
asciilifeform: phf: this works until accepting non-shit begins to resemble the process of extracting uranium from sea water [10:46]
phf: to some extent it's aligned with v model, the only thing that matters is the text of patch, you read it, and decide on whether you want to sign it or not [10:47]
phf: asciilifeform: it's always extracting uranium from sea water :D except through beatings you hopefully make a slightly smarter sea water that start bringing greater traces of uranium [10:47]
phf: obviously can't do this in a company with HR, wreckers, etc. [10:48]
asciilifeform: the beatings are really analogous to the fine adjustment knob on, e.g., microscope [10:49]
mircea_popescu: phf it's aligned alright. which is how linus now has a "psychopatic sexual behaviours", as per [10:49]
asciilifeform: no amount of beating will conjure into existence a sane cpu, for instance. [10:49]
phf: one dev told me he gets sweaty palms when submitting a pull request, and i'm like "good. gooood" [10:49]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform sufficient beating will conjure anything. experientia docent. [10:49]
phf: at least i no longer think that i should just send him to the farm [10:50]
asciilifeform: so this is how we learn that mircea_popescu had a horse. but then went to beat it into ferrari, still working [10:50]
phf: and the attitude went from "docs??" to "ha ha i guess reading documentation pays off ha ha" to "let me check the docs" [10:51]
mircea_popescu: heh. [10:51]
asciilifeform: << how to extract the usg master key in shitdroid [10:55]
asciilifeform: (less of a practical interest and more of a 'this never happened!111' item.) [10:55]
trinque: << the "to whom" here is the missing and essential item. [10:56]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 14:31 asciilifeform: i still say that source availability is a red herring here [10:56]
asciilifeform: trinque: i was speaking of the missing 'freedom' from stallman's 'freedoms list' - '... to UNDERSTAND' [10:57]
asciilifeform: e.g., openssl source is 'available' to all, but understood by no one [10:57]
mircea_popescu: i don't see value in this. what, there's a universal right to understand ? [10:57]
asciilifeform: because the entire conceptual framework is defective. [10:58]
mircea_popescu: your cat now has the right to understand differential calculus. proceed. [10:58]
trinque: asciilifeform: yes [10:58]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: not cat, or random luser, but ~somebody somewhere~ [10:58]
trinque: "free to understand" for everyone is a ticket straight to cancerous chimeric hell [10:58]
mircea_popescu: what's this, meta-communism ? "not these people are equal, but some ideal people somewhere else" ? [10:58]
trinque: $gettrust reydev [10:59]
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 0 by 0 connections. [10:59]
mircea_popescu: there's no freedom to understand anymore than there's a freedom to decide who fucks you. [10:59]
trinque: ^ what determines whether I provide source [10:59]
mircea_popescu: and yes, understanding === being fucked the process is called "education" because "fucking" is too harsh apparently. [10:59]
asciilifeform: there is nothing educative about complexity cancer and the c machine. [11:01]
mircea_popescu: hm. [11:01]
asciilifeform: it is a pesilence, and has less redeeming value than the aids virus. [11:01]
asciilifeform: *pestilence [11:01]
mircea_popescu: i thought god taught through pestilences. [11:01]
asciilifeform: sure did. the students fell asleep in class tho. [11:02]
mircea_popescu: anyway. i'll concur with you saying that it's one lousy fuck, how about that. [11:02]
asciilifeform: lousy fuck with rode cone studded with razor wire. [11:02]
asciilifeform: *road cone [11:02]
mircea_popescu: consensus building! [11:02]
asciilifeform: mine's still in. [11:02]
mircea_popescu: ahahaha o god. [11:02]
mircea_popescu: now i have rum all over my desk wtf. why's that so funny [11:02]
phf: wouldn't this sort of statements of philosophical position (i don't know a better term) still be effective among the aristoi? there's that idea that u.s. constitution was written for the privileged classes, and that you had to a) be able to write b) own a pen c) own a piece of paper to participate in voting process. or would gpl still be a bad idea if was restricted to in-wot? [11:23]
asciilifeform: phf: i find myself agreeing with naggum - gpl was a weapon against microshit, and makes very little sense in any other context [11:24]
mircea_popescu: << never before seen footage of & ethereum development, vetting, auditing and marketing process. [11:24]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: l0l!!11 [11:24]
mircea_popescu: phf i don't see a problem with gpl per se, but i'm not going to enforce it myself. [11:24]
phf: asciilifeform: erm, yeah, i didn't mean gpl, i meant stallman's code freedoms [11:25]
phf: "four essential freedoms" [11:26]
mircea_popescu: phf i'm game for a full analysis of them if you care to state any. the problem broadly is that they're nonsense as-found. [11:26]
trinque: phf: my point above is that, if you asked me for sauce I'd provide it for reasons entirely other than philosophy [11:26]
trinque: it'd benefit me because you might improve the thing [11:26]
mircea_popescu: 1. "this is the difference between" 2. "the fnargl is larger than a butter" 3. "any elements larger than the elements smaller than themselves are smaller than the larger elements of some other set." [11:27]
mircea_popescu: etc in this vein. [11:27]
mircea_popescu: the cheapest forinstance : it's not even proper to speak of "code" rather than text until and unless you've introduced a specific difference. which is a harder problem than it appears. "obviously" is not an answer. [11:29]
phf: - The freedom to run the program as you wish, for any purpose (freedom 0). [11:30]
phf: - The freedom to study how the program works, and change it so it does your computing as you wish (freedom 1). Access to the source code is a precondition for this. [11:30]
phf: - The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor (freedom 2). [11:30]
phf: - The freedom to distribute copies of your modified versions to others (freedom 3). By doing this you can give the whole community a chance to benefit from your changes. Access to the source code is a precondition for this. [11:30]
phf: (for teh record) [11:31]
trinque: there are so many false political assumptions embedded in them it's hard to pick a starting place [11:32]
mircea_popescu: take 0 : "agent has agency". i'm not willing to reduce that to this, not just because but in general, as a matter of sovereignity. if your ethereum works in this way, there's no "criminal thief" blabla. [11:33]
a111: Logged on 2015-01-30 05:51 mircea_popescu: which is why i am not ever giving it up. the freedom to threaten is not merely my fundamental, unassailable sovereign property, but moreover essential for the construction of effectual instruments to squash the socialists and their golums. [11:33]
asciilifeform: there was an entire mircea_popescu piece on subj [11:33]
asciilifeform: does anyone have the link ? [11:33]
mircea_popescu: which one ? [11:33]
asciilifeform: << found it. [11:33]
mircea_popescu: ah [11:34]
mircea_popescu: yeah, that's more of a practical philosophy thing, but i see what you mean. [11:34]
asciilifeform: and for some reason i thought that the above was also the one where mircea_popescu had the bit re 'usg tries to claim the ability to delegate the right to use software, as the church claimed the right to delegate use of woman' [11:34]
asciilifeform: but it isn't [11:35]
phf: well, i'm trying to see if this could use this as a glue to tie V and stan's laws of sane computing [11:35]
phf: i'm not so much interested in "freedom" aspect of it, but as a way to construct a coherent position on tmsr computing [11:35]
mircea_popescu: phf i don't think stallman, for all his posturing, was muich in the philosophy department. seriously, ima have a special right to use code ? tell you what - have the inalienable freedom to use weapons, in any manner i deem fit, such as against the us president, and to use the penis, and plates of pasta, and napkin scribblings and anything else. [11:36]
asciilifeform: the only 'stallman law' that remains after you strip away ALL of the usgological 'rights' claptral is no 1 [11:36]
asciilifeform: availability of source [11:36]
asciilifeform: which falls right back into the 'sane computing' list. [11:36]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform except i don't see anyone has an implicit freedom allowing him to review other people's notes. [11:36]
asciilifeform: and let's once and for all distinguish 'source for phuctor' from 'source for grep' [11:36]
mircea_popescu: heck, nsa is what, an open sourcing program run on public funds ? [11:36]
mircea_popescu: phf can you point to a spot where it's incoherent ? [11:37]
trinque: neither software nor more generally communication operates on a flat topology stallman's trying to cram communication into that flatland [11:38]
trinque: like every communist [11:38]
mircea_popescu: trinque hence the text comment above [11:38]
phf: trinque: that's not very interesting, you can rework gpl into wot graph quite trivially [11:38]
asciilifeform: trinque: fact remains, if you think i'm gonna run a binary, ANYONE's binary, for whatever reason, yer smoking dope. [11:38]
asciilifeform: i run other folks' binaries solely for purpose of reversing and exploitation. [11:39]
phf: as a spec to how a node within a wot graph is going to operate by default in relation to text [11:39]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform would you accept data from certified source ? [11:39]
asciilifeform: and specifically to maximally fuck the author. [11:39]
trinque: phf: it's not WoT-tronic if I'm making decisions based on WoT and also this overarching religion about software [11:39]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if said data is obfuscated against me, i regard it as an attack. [11:39]
mircea_popescu: besides the point. it's a random byte field you didn't make, and can't verify. [11:40]
mircea_popescu: unless you go out and do the measurements yourself. by hand ? [11:40]
asciilifeform: quite often i ~will~ do the measurements. by hand. [11:40]
mircea_popescu: sure, i run coherence checks on all data, such as recent trilema article is testament. [11:40]
asciilifeform: have found quite a few interesting bits this way. [11:40]
asciilifeform: 'trust but verify' [11:40]
mircea_popescu: but point remains, binary is more insidious than readily observed. you can't reduce text to "code" nor can you reduce binary to "elf". [11:41]
asciilifeform: which is why i see deliberate obfuscation as an admission of guilt [11:41]
mircea_popescu: you load crapolade websites all the time and pdf meets your attack criteria. [11:41]
trinque: agreeing to a specific set of behavior within a category *forever* is slavery. [11:41]
asciilifeform: it is about ~intent~ [11:41]
mircea_popescu: there is no intent. [11:41]
asciilifeform: rather than mechanical identity. [11:41]
trinque: suitable for some, but I'm not going to sign it. [11:41]
asciilifeform: there sure as fuck is inferrable intent. [11:41]
mircea_popescu: you mean constructive intent. hardly an intentional category. [11:41]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu will run a bitcoin client with 0 published source ? in anger ? [11:42]
asciilifeform: if not, why not ? [11:42]
mircea_popescu: (yes, we use constructive intent all the time, such as for instance in discussions of usg - the sort of thing where they end up responsible both ways.) [11:42]
phf: trinque: nah, not ~entire~ wot and not forever. but let's say i give you code under wotgpl, it means that the code has certain propagation properties within wot, and i don't have to negrate you if you abide by a certain set of pre-discussed rules [11:42]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i supppse maybe as a black box item, i dunno. [11:43]
asciilifeform: what's a 'black box item' ? [11:43]
mircea_popescu: i dunno, meteorite fell from sky, seems to work a certain way, gotta look what it does now. [11:43]
asciilifeform: the way i see it, withholding source for a safety-critical mechanism like bitcoin client is a hostile act - unambiguously poisonous offering. [11:44]
* mircea_popescu has spent more time than he cares to admit with crazy incomprehensible and perhaps fragmentary item. "what is it ?" "fuck me" [11:44]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i dealt with them for a living. [11:44]
mircea_popescu: "it's a religious artifact!" [11:44]
trinque: phf: I see software being "shared" in such a personal way that you should expect me to ask you directly whether I can give to my L1, whether I can post sauce on www, so on [11:45]
trinque: and then people can check the logs maybe we signed a contract, maybe we just talked about it [11:45]
mircea_popescu: ftr that was the original, and working, shareware paradigm. [11:45]
asciilifeform: trinque: keep in mind that keeping secrets has a cost [11:45]
mircea_popescu: pre billy goates and his whiny self, people shared tapes. [11:45]
asciilifeform: trinque: and that it is not a reasonable thing to ask others to do without a good reason [11:45]
trinque: but I don't want to sign onto a talmudic interpretation of WoT-o-tronics, either generally or in this instance [11:45]
phf: trinque: see even your assumptions are different from asciilifeform's [11:46]
mircea_popescu: keeping secrets definitely has costs. [11:46]
mircea_popescu: it's why nsa fails so badly. all their budget goes to filling the barn, ~none to guarding the barn. [11:46]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: opposite, really [11:47]
mircea_popescu: (also why police state is a self-limiting failure mode) [11:47]
trinque: these are broad socialist orgs [11:47]
trinque: I gave ben_vulpes an OS image a while back, asked that he use it internally only [11:47]
trinque: and I have 0% doubt that he will do that [11:47]
trinque: WoT works just fine [11:48]
mircea_popescu: trinque what if say his gf splits, steals his hdds, now it's online (because she accidentally publishes it through running open webserver os). now you negrate him ? [11:49]
mircea_popescu: what specific measures should he take in his relations with his gf, other than the current precautions so wife doesn't find out, to satisfy your needs ? [11:49]
trinque: it's a personal matter which would be evaluated in the context of our friendship [11:49]
trinque: and not generally with the jewish grandmothers [11:49]
asciilifeform: this is what means 'has a cost' [11:49]
mircea_popescu: thart may be, but economics is economics, so what should he do ? [11:49]
asciilifeform: it isn't simply about 'he's my chum, i will lend him my pistol, and i trust that he will only shoot coke cans' [11:50]
mircea_popescu: so in general, i expect the notion of "code secrecy" to be as nonsensical today as when stallman was a wee tyke getting started on other people's emacs. [11:51]
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, there's a difference between secrecy AS A STATE and code sharing AS A PROCESS. [11:52]
trinque: as is generally *enforcing* moral behavior [11:52]
mircea_popescu: wasn't my intention to discuss the former, really. [11:52]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i can't find the one with "buy computing" like old dudes/church wanted to "buy women". darn. [11:53]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: [11:54]
asciilifeform: ^ it [11:54]
mircea_popescu: yes! ty! [11:54]
mircea_popescu: the book sez : "A parallel with human sexuality is not unwarranted here. At a past time when the ownership of female humans was the principal method to control capital formation and the political process, the same sort of dead hand fictions proposed that they in fact control the usage of women, that anyone owning a woman does so only as a sublicense from their sovereign ownership of all women, and may proceed only in furthera [11:55]
mircea_popescu: nce of the regulation they emitted as to how women may be used and may not be used and so on and so forth. Specifically excluded from all this - the woman in question. Particularly "criminal" at the time - using a woman in the manner she herself wishes to be used. [11:55]
mircea_popescu: Times have changed, women are now worthless, but computers aren't, and these same dead hand fictions propose anew : that they own all computers, that if you own a computer it's only a sublease from them, subject to furthering their regulations and so on and so forth. Specifically excluded from all this - what the code actually says and does. Particularly "criminal" - using a computer in the manner it itself allows to be used." [11:55]
asciilifeform: aha, it. [11:55]
mircea_popescu: goes so neatly with "the dao". [11:56]
mircea_popescu: the gall of these shitheads. how DARE THEY use fucking words other than "fdsjkhgwreifgiwiotghfegbvhwerg" to denote their vomit. [11:56]
asciilifeform: see also [11:56]
a111: Logged on 2014-10-21 01:30 asciilifeform: 'As progressively dumber programmers build progressively more complex systems we will see more of this kind of attempt to paper over coding mistakes with lawyers, sanctions, policies, and laws. Hollywood and the RIAA are usually the most successful at getting the government to do their bidding. Thus I predict that one day Disney will have a Web site where you can buy access to any of their movies. Because [11:56]
mircea_popescu: anyway, back to phf 's thing : i frankly dun think rms/frf/etc are relevant here, not anymore than aunt molly's mole is relevant in a discussion of dermatology. [11:59]
mircea_popescu: yes, indisputably a mole happens on the skin yes indisputably aunt molly's mole did in fact occur. nevertheless, irrelevant anecdote of no further import. [11:59]
asciilifeform: i disagree - they are excellent examples - along with, e.g., mr mold - of failed autoappendectomies [12:00]
asciilifeform: rms is tragicomic precisely ~because~ he won't let go of fundamentally usgistic thinking [12:00]
mircea_popescu: sure, may have all sorts of other relevancies but not dispositive or even indicative re the theory of everything, or computing for that matter. [12:00]
asciilifeform: perhaps better analogy here is the astronomical epicycle. [12:01]
mircea_popescu: (when pursuing evidence, there's two kinds : indicative and dispositive. the latter is the sort that ends the inquiry the former is the sort that points to the way towards the latter.) [12:01]
asciilifeform: 'kinetics proposes, thermodynamics disposes' (tm) (r) (uncle al) [12:01]
mircea_popescu: like that. [12:02]
mircea_popescu: << this is true. the thief who is terribly terribly sorry he got caught and not even a bit aware he was stealing. [12:03]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 16:00 asciilifeform: rms is tragicomic precisely ~because~ he won't let go of fundamentally usgistic thinking [12:03]
mircea_popescu: basically, the american indian mentality. [12:03]
asciilifeform: sorta like the indian in mircea_popescu' skyscraper essay [12:04]
mircea_popescu: which one is that ? [12:04]
mircea_popescu: jesus i'm having a bad memory day. [12:04]
asciilifeform: [12:04]
mircea_popescu: oh right right. [12:04]
* asciilifeform has a good chunk of mircea_popescu's material loaded into head [12:05]
phf: hmm hmm [12:05]
mircea_popescu: and in other news, a rather accurate reproduction of historical copulation in hominids. [12:05]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so do i! but it dun always fire. [12:05]
mircea_popescu: phf for the record, a large part of the problem (seen in say) is the very unreflexive manner of these derps writing. [12:11]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 15:32 trinque: there are so many false political assumptions embedded in them it's hard to pick a starting place [12:11]
mircea_popescu: it's like a cow mewing or like a kitten braying, you can readily see going through their productions that they... felt, something, there. [12:11]
mircea_popescu: but they didn't then bother to go back, and check the terms, and check the relations, and cross-examine their production. [12:11]
mircea_popescu: they write like their disciples code, which is to say, breathless, first pass, never read. [12:12]
mircea_popescu: "did you as much as re-read this shit ?" "ain't nobody got time for that ??" [12:12]
mircea_popescu: and in the rare cases when they re-read, they re-read like they re-stroke the penis. to recognize, not to understand. [12:12]
mircea_popescu: this, needless to say, i hope, ISN'T HOW YOU FUCKING WRITE. code or anything else. [12:13]
asciilifeform: << lel 'corexit' [12:23]
asciilifeform: konseeeeensoooos!1111 [12:24]
thestringpuller: oh man rumors of nukes launching. [12:24]
shinohai: "The above is unverified." meaning "Just a buncha r/btc derps spreading gossip" [12:25]
mircea_popescu: heh. [12:25]
mircea_popescu: lol, complete with "price jumps on rumours" bullshit ? [12:27]
mircea_popescu: check that out, it's golden : "It is not clear how developers will now react. To not give the ecosystem choice opens Bitcoin Core developers to criticism of centralized power where developers decide even political matters of increased capacity, increasing the risk of legal liability and threatening an open war with miners which, having the full support of almost all prominent bitcoin businesses, are likely to come out much st [12:27]
mircea_popescu: ronger." [12:27]
mircea_popescu: ie, "miner cartel got beaten to shit, withdrew temporarily, wants to have control over bitcoin! IT WAS PROMISED!!!!". [12:28]
asciilifeform: choice!1111 [12:28]
asciilifeform: 'i didn't shoot him in the head to kill, just gave his brains CHOICE OF WHERE TO GO!111' [12:28]
mircea_popescu: everything is twisted around. "ecosystem" ? ie, what, five derps with 200 socks each ? that's the ecosystem ? [12:28]
mircea_popescu: "it's not clear how bitcoin will react ?" fuck you. a) there's nothing to react to b) it's fucking clear how people react to nothing. [12:28]
mircea_popescu: so much wanna-be ism, so militant, so organised. [12:29]
mircea_popescu: so hopeless. [12:29]
mircea_popescu: anyway. summer of forks proceeding without much gas, one confused byzantine general moving chaotically around the field. [12:30]
mircea_popescu: mebbe next year. [12:30]
asciilifeform: i thought it was supposed to coincide with the halfocalypse [12:31]
mircea_popescu: all sorts of things were supposed. [12:31]
asciilifeform: would be the logical time, anyway [12:31]
asciilifeform: in other nyooz, zoolag has been blackholed for almost a day. [12:33]
asciilifeform: (this is not an all-time record but is noteworthy) [12:34]
asciilifeform: interesting method tho [12:34]
asciilifeform: flooded with TBs of nonstandard tx. [12:34]
ben_vulpes: gf walking with wot material is just as catastrophic as usg walking with wot material. 'walked' being only detail of note. [12:39]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: 'what three know, the pig knows' [12:40]
mod6: i fucking hate java btw [12:40]
mod6: just putting that out there [12:41]
ben_vulpes: but why mod6 [12:41]
ben_vulpes: it's halfway between cpp and lisp! [12:41]
ben_vulpes: it even has 'lambdas' now! [12:41]
mod6: lol [12:41]
ben_vulpes: you should give swift a try [12:41]
mircea_popescu: you know, i'm mildly surprised webcam companies haven't built the arcade scroller irl yet. you could have this special obstacle course built, have the camhos try and complete it, people could pay to watch, bet on whether they manage or not... [12:42]
ben_vulpes: hysterical hodgepodge of a language. [12:42]
mircea_popescu: think pussy of persia. [12:42]
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: that was a /lot/ of setup. [12:42]
mircea_popescu: yes, that's my point :D [12:42]
ben_vulpes: miserable puns are made better with excessive setup. 'better' in the sense that your audience suffers more. [12:43]
mircea_popescu: the point was not the pun! [12:43]
phf: ninja warrior with tits sort of thing [12:43]
ben_vulpes: right [12:43]
ben_vulpes: starvation wages when [12:43]
mircea_popescu: well... anyone know debbie do anything, arguably christina applegate's best character ? [12:44]
mircea_popescu: from some very shitty "romantic comedy" [12:44]
mircea_popescu: $google "these bitches are disrespectin' an' that ain't right!" [12:44]
deedbot: No results. [12:44]
mircea_popescu: pfff. [12:44]
mircea_popescu: [12:44]
ben_vulpes: "i heard that if people bop you on your head, gold coins come out of your butt" ok i died [12:45]
ben_vulpes: in other OTHER OTHER news, i upgraded this laptop to 10.11 and now the second mini hdmi port doesn't work [12:45]
ben_vulpes: what [12:45]
ben_vulpes: the [12:45]
ben_vulpes: shit [12:45]
mircea_popescu: 10.11 whats ? [12:45]
ben_vulpes: macos arcane versioning [12:46]
thestringpuller: << oh god. this is my life. maybe I should ask asciilifeform how long until I succumb to radiation poisoning [12:46]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 16:12 mircea_popescu: "did you as much as re-read this shit ?" "ain't nobody got time for that ??" [12:46]
phf: ben_vulpes: you knew what you were doing and you suffered the consequences [12:46]
ben_vulpes: phf: oh yes [12:46]
ben_vulpes: harder and more of it please [12:46]
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in argentina, [12:49]
ben_vulpes: most expensive x11 terminal i ever seen. [12:49]
* ben_vulpes grumbles [12:49]
ben_vulpes: assburgers lol [12:49]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: l0l what happened to 'dun post it on usgur!111' [12:50]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i specifically disclaim any relation to the crap. either part of it. [12:51]
mircea_popescu: "argentina has a night life", "romantic comedies", whatever the fuck, all of it belongs on imgur. [12:51]
mircea_popescu: im just sad i don't have a 9gag account. [12:51]
shinohai: "A William P. Tatem Elementary School teacher called police on June 16 after a third-grader said a fellow student made a racist comment about brownies" Good to know we are safe. [12:53]
asciilifeform: << now install openbsd so BOTH ports can die!111 [13:11]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 16:45 ben_vulpes: in other OTHER OTHER news, i upgraded this laptop to 10.11 and now the second mini hdmi port doesn't work [13:11]
trinque: yes, but at least he'll have a new hoverboard with fans that never spin down [13:15]
asciilifeform: and eventually - anchor! [13:17]
mircea_popescu: for his battleship! [13:19]
asciilifeform: bottleship. [13:19]
asciilifeform: to briefly pick up yesterday's thread, [13:24]
asciilifeform: if anyone wondered why fountain (e.g., luby's) algo is not widely used, answer is... mega-unsurprise... patent trollage [13:24]
mircea_popescu: heh. [13:26]
asciilifeform: (luby himself opened up a troll shop, it seems) [13:26]
asciilifeform: so gossipd is posed to be the first live-fire open air rape of this usg directorate. [13:27]
asciilifeform: *poised [13:27]
mircea_popescu: mazel tov! [13:28]
* trinque applauds [13:28]
ben_vulpes: ehehehehe wd [13:28]
mircea_popescu: $google Contessa Serbelloni Mazzanti Vien dal Mare [13:28]
deedbot: << Contessa Serbelloni Mazzanti Vien dal Mare - Wikipedia | << Fantozzi, il varo della nave e la Contessa Serbelloni Mazzanti Vien ... | << Contessa Serbelloni Mazzanti Vien dal Mare [13:28]
mircea_popescu: 2nd link. [13:28]
mircea_popescu: actually, not shot with potato. [13:30]
trinque: ahahaha [13:31]
trinque: I'm going to have to watch this [13:32]
asciilifeform: l0l!! [13:32]
asciilifeform: in other interesting finds, [13:34]
asciilifeform: ^ actually well-written imho [13:34]
mircea_popescu: trinque "la furia homicida del purpurato" is certainly memorable :D [13:35]
asciilifeform: quite [13:35]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform his definition of metaheuristic is disappointing :D [13:36]
mircea_popescu: and in other weird, [13:42]
mircea_popescu: (she's being a mondina) [13:42]
asciilifeform: wat's this [13:42]
mircea_popescu: "Saluteremo il signor padrone per il male che ci ha fatto che ci ha sempre maltrattato fino all'ultimo momen' Saluteremo il signor padrone con la so' risera neta pochi soldi in la cassetta e i debit da pagar..." [13:43]
mircea_popescu: basically, every culture has a "women on sale" marketplace. the egyptians stick them in shops, if you got money to buy goods maybe you got money for an extra cowsy ? the italians of the pre-roosevelt era stuck them in this bizarre field job. [13:44]
mircea_popescu: women only, day farm labourers, doing ~nothing in the muds of rice paddies. [13:44]
mircea_popescu: << realist picture (the other one's idealist, in that it's silvia mangano. [13:45]
mircea_popescu: (famous italian actress) [13:45]
phf: oh she played in death in venice, and weirdly enough in Dune (as the reverend mother) [13:53]
asciilifeform: oh hey! yes [13:53]
mircea_popescu: she was hot in the late 40s / 50s, and competent thereafter. [13:53]
mircea_popescu: but smoking hot, at that. [13:54]
thestringpuller: jihan wu, bout to lose a lot of money. [14:10]
shinohai: later tell BingoBoingo [14:19]
gribble: The operation succeeded. [14:19]
shinohai: Also in the run moar SSL department: [14:20]
asciilifeform: $up yangwao [14:47]
deedbot: yangwao voiced for 30 minutes. [14:47]
yangwao: o/ [14:47]
asciilifeform: who might you be, yangwao ? [14:47]
yangwao: well. Holiday programmer who just found bad implementation in libsodium (a.k.a C implementation of NaCl) [14:49]
yangwao: nothing really special, just some daily memory leaks :D [14:49]
jurov: who made it? djb himself? [14:49]
asciilifeform: what's a holiday programmer ? [14:49]
yangwao: NaCl is ok (hope), I think, there just problems in libsodium, ehm this one [14:51]
yangwao: and I might found another in JOSE, in X25519.. but looks its still in rfc draft thing [14:51]
* yangwao [14:52]
asciilifeform: $up gabriel_laddel [14:54]
deedbot: gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes. [14:54]
asciilifeform: how goes the lispificated gentoo gabriel_laddel ? [14:55]
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: terrible atm - cannot generate a initial ram filesystem that works correctly :/ [14:55]
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: i suggest taking my buildroot configs as example [14:56]
asciilifeform: (they produce working initramfs, with bitcoin in it) [14:56]
gabriel_laddel: I looked into it previously, and it seemed that simply modifying the working initramfs I have now would be much faster - but no such luck yet. [14:59]
gabriel_laddel: I can unpack the thing, inspect & modify the tree, but when repacking it and writing it to the USB == kernel panic [14:59]
gabriel_laddel: Even unpacking and then repackaging it causes this - so must be that I have two versions of cpio installed or some nonsense.. [15:00]
asciilifeform: eventually gabriel_laddel will see the light. [15:00]
gabriel_laddel: the light being that the buildroot people already handled this for me? [15:00]
asciilifeform: which is: that the whole shebang must burn. [15:00]
asciilifeform: initramfs, cpio, the idiot kernel, the whole thing. [15:01]
asciilifeform: gcc. c. [15:01]
asciilifeform: all. of. it. [15:01]
gabriel_laddel: Oh yeah, I'm /very/ much on board with that. [15:01]
gabriel_laddel: Hence this whole project. [15:01]
asciilifeform: iirc gabriel_laddel's project was a kind of improved gentoo ? [15:02]
asciilifeform: (a potentially useful thing, but quite certainly not the demolition spoken of earlier) [15:02]
gabriel_laddel: gentoo with CLIM as the default graphics library, conkeror (emacs style browser) and a bunch of math goodies more or less [15:02]
mircea_popescu: << get in wot eh. [15:03]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 18:49 yangwao: well. Holiday programmer who just found bad implementation in libsodium (a.k.a C implementation of NaCl) [15:03]
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: what are you using for a framebuffer ? [15:03]
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: X [15:03]
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: consider a headless x, where you have to connect from outside the box [15:03]
asciilifeform: can ditch the gpu crapolade then [15:03]
asciilifeform: symbolics-style. [15:03]
asciilifeform: (they imho had very much the right idea re separation of churc^H^H^H^H^Hcpu and sta^H^H^Hconsole [15:04]
asciilifeform: ) [15:04]
asciilifeform: ideally it would be over a crossover Gb ethernet cable. [15:05]
phf: gabriel_laddel: have you looked at closure (the web browser), have you tried bringing it up to date, etc? [15:05]
gabriel_laddel: phf: I did - it requires more work than it is worth atm [15:06]
phf: gabriel_laddel: also have you looked at CLIM source code that i think allegro people have released [15:06]
mircea_popescu: altogether the attempt to make a "web browser" work seems educational (read : selffuckstick) than anything. we don't even want tcp to survive, let alone html, css or js. [15:06]
asciilifeform: phf: i dun recall anything franz released ever working properly with anything other than allegro [15:07]
gabriel_laddel: phf: glanced at it - why? [15:07]
phf: just curious if it's in a working state [15:07]
gabriel_laddel: nfi - it has a bunch of C, so I skipped it [15:07]
phf: i'm pretty sure that's the one with genera heritage, so as close to the mothership [15:07]
phf: they probably do x11 through ffi and other such things [15:08]
gabriel_laddel: I met the franz doods irl once. Cannot understand *why* they do what they do at all. [15:08]
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: iirc franz is 100% usg-powered now. [15:08]
asciilifeform: and has been for ~decade. [15:08]
phf: yeah, i'm surprised they weren't involved in, say, ITA [15:08]
asciilifeform: ita used clozure iirc [15:09]
phf: *was surprised when [15:09]
phf: ita used sbcl for their main product [15:09]
asciilifeform: ~nobody wants to pay the runtime royalties. [15:09]
phf: and clozure for their experimental product, which i'm not sure if that ended up getting delivered. that was like a separate ticketing system for some canadian airline [15:09]
asciilifeform: << re the acquisition of franz [15:10]
a111: Logged on 2015-12-01 19:10 ascii_field: but it is conceivable that xanalys was tired of paying for dev runtimes, which were expensive [15:10]
asciilifeform: phf: ah yes [15:10]
phf: i think nobody's ever tried making mcclim performant, and on top of that all this work was put into dodgy projects (like ttf and general prettification, not to mention that beach spent long time trying to make it render to html (!!!)) [15:12]
asciilifeform: instead of KILLING WITH FIRE the disgusting athena widgets [15:12]
phf: so i was curious if that allegro thing might be better in that respect, but i suspect it's one of those 20% rewrite, 80% patching projects [15:12]
* asciilifeform loathes few gui proggies more than clim [15:13]
phf: i'm pretty sure athena in mcclim is not even real athena, but rather a simulation, because that was gui state of the art when mcclim started [15:13]
asciilifeform: it isn't even about 'pretty' [15:13]
asciilifeform: it is about how if i am cooking in a kitchen, there should be NO human shit in the sink [15:13]
asciilifeform: not negotiable. [15:13]
gabriel_laddel: you have some sort of problem with geometry? [15:13]
gabriel_laddel: or? [15:13]
asciilifeform: it simply stinks. [15:14]
gabriel_laddel: it just hands you geometry + some basic ways of abstracting it - what could possibly stink? [15:14]
gabriel_laddel: presentations? [15:14]
gabriel_laddel: streams? [15:14]
asciilifeform: all of it. slow and dog-ugly. [15:14]
asciilifeform: and makes my hands literally hurt (ignored mouse wheel, etc) [15:15]
phf: that sounds like TK problem. like out of the box tk is dog ugly and unpleasant to use, but you can get a designer (an actual one, not like "designer") play with geometries, color and fonts to make it look quite good. i think athena would've benefited from somebody who's not an autist looking at it [15:17]
asciilifeform: phf: there are fundamental problems, of playing well with platform's foundational ui [15:18]
asciilifeform: for instance, on mac, anything that doesn't DIRECTLY use the native api WILL look like shit [15:18]
phf: that's is an unsolvable problem. [15:18]
asciilifeform: whereas on my battlestation, i use ratpoison and a wall of lcd, and anything that spawns windows will look like shit [15:18]
phf: there's literally not a single system that solved this problem satisfyingly [15:19]
asciilifeform: likewise certain www sites i can't even load normally because they turn to soup given my screen geometry (i use strictly tall vertical displays) [15:19]
phf: even gkt/qt that came pretty close look like uncanny valley on mac [15:19]
asciilifeform: phf: it is important to determine what subset of the problem is even worth solving. [15:20]
gabriel_laddel: ftr, if you have funtoo / gentoo questions, angry_vincent on #funtoo is quite well versed in the idioms. [15:21]
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: ask him how it is acceptable to break everybody's box every six months. [15:22]
phf: i think that clim would benefit from removing all decorations and rolling it back to genera style thin and thick lines to at the very least get the baseline speed in place [15:22]
asciilifeform: motherfuckers. [15:22]
asciilifeform: phf: i could live with this. [15:22]
asciilifeform: but - no mouse wheel, no go. [15:22]
phf: then you make sure that default fonts and geometries make sense [15:23]
phf: with a designer [15:23]
asciilifeform: the other thing is that we are unfortunately stuck with something like ttf, because displays DO vary in density [15:23]
phf: yeah, solve problems like mouse wheel, and general awareness of what's available in x11 [15:23]
asciilifeform: i have 3 different dpi in my array [15:23]
asciilifeform: by factor of FOUR [15:23]
phf: have 3 different fontsets, no way is ttf a solution [15:24]
asciilifeform: as soon as somebody supplies these - game. [15:24]
phf: not saying it's your responsibility, mcclim needs to solve that problem internally [15:24]
asciilifeform: (and if they dun have cyrillic, greek, etc. glyphs - no game.) [15:24]
phf: yeah, it's a hard problem unrelated to clim [15:25]
phf: like i'm not convinced that cyrillic, greek etc. should be implemented on cl's character level, as opposed to something like ccl's concept of Rune [15:26]
phf: "problem" is nobody's working on it [15:27]
asciilifeform: if they aren't on character level, what, i can't search, sort, etc. them ?? [15:27]
asciilifeform: fuck that. [15:27]
phf: why? [15:28]
asciilifeform: phf: serious folks are avoiding the serious problems because they CORRECTLY intuit that there is not a stable foundation on which to solve them. [15:28]
asciilifeform: i.e., that their blood will go to waste. [15:28]
phf: search and sort and the rest take :key [15:28]
phf: folks avoiding the serious problems because they are fat fucks with feelings, not because they correctly intuit :p [15:29]
asciilifeform: (what means 'wasted blood' ? see for what i mean here. ) [15:29]
asciilifeform: phf: ~serious~ folks [15:29]
asciilifeform: not speaking of the vermin here. [15:29]
asciilifeform: but folks ~capable~ of solving serious problemz. [15:29]
phf: show me these serious folks [15:29]
phf: erm, gotta go [15:30]
* phf brb [15:30]
asciilifeform: let's put it this way - recall my attempt at 'repairing gentoo' ? [15:32]
asciilifeform: or naggum's - of emacs ? [15:32]
asciilifeform: to suggest that a thinking man spend his life this way, is quite like 'why dontcha close the embrasure of this pillbox with your body' [15:32]
asciilifeform: there is 0 point to cleaning a barrel that is being shat into faster than anyone could possibly hope to clean it. [15:34]
asciilifeform: if anything, it is an act of evil, forestalls the inevitable field of rubble and gives false hope [15:34]
asciilifeform: ( see also, ) [15:34]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-29 15:48 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform empty and full of rubble does wonders to keep hopes down (and hope, expectation of future, TRULY is the mind eater for usians. be hopeless, you win.) and officious intermeddlers at a distance sufficient to breed actual people with some frequency. [15:34]
mircea_popescu: << sadly this is like "army boot size that make sense" [15:42]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 19:23 phf: then you make sure that default fonts and geometries make sense [15:42]
mircea_popescu: << nah, really, look at tmsr and it's absurd levels of fully deficit spending. re [15:44]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-29 19:44 phf: the fact that you run shell scripts on your data basically disqualifies you from participating in management. you're supposed to leverage, that shell script is $500k initial investment ruby on rails project [15:44]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 19:29 phf: folks avoiding the serious problems because they are fat fucks with feelings, not because they correctly intuit :p [15:44]
mircea_popescu: fact is, when as much as a vague hint of the flavour of the possibility of a stable base is presented, people go nuts working hands to bone to build it up [15:44]
mircea_popescu: i think he has it. no basis. [15:44]
mircea_popescu: the knowledge that your work shall be forever useful is not even in the same ballpark with the knowledge you can now buy six more lattes. [15:45]
asciilifeform: << except that not! consider the quoted bit in [15:59]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 19:42 mircea_popescu: << sadly this is like "army boot size that make sense" [15:59]
asciilifeform: the 'army boot' quandry comes from having to standardize the glyph as a bitmap. [15:59]
asciilifeform: but in actuality a sane definition of a glyph is: program, which takes a point in a region of 2d plane and tells you if said point is darkened by said glyph. [16:00]
asciilifeform: and there are not so many of these, and necessary language is a quite limited subset of henderson's lisp [16:01]
asciilifeform: the beauty is that affine transforms , you get for free. [16:02]
asciilifeform: forever. [16:02]
asciilifeform: $s henderson [16:02]
a111: 5 results for "henderson", [16:02]
asciilifeform: (NOT, before anyone asks, turing-complete, for fuxsake) [16:03]
asciilifeform: just 'is this point black,' eats x, y. [16:04]
asciilifeform: (and X,Y bounding box.) [16:04]
asciilifeform: ~in general~ whenever you find yourself solving 'army boot' problems, know that you are operating with broken abstractions. [16:05]
trinque: neat, sounds similar approach to a shader [16:05]
asciilifeform: in all cases the correct solution is liquid boot that the soldiers dip feet in. whenever technologically plausible! [16:06]
asciilifeform: trinque: but with NO special categories. ALL graphical objects on the machine must obey said formulation. [16:07]
asciilifeform: you thereby get composability. [16:07]
asciilifeform: sanely. [16:07]
asciilifeform: sorta what mircea_popescu was getting at, i suspect, when he mentioned svg. [16:08]
asciilifeform: (svg is a braindamaged monkey implementation of some of the above principles.) [16:08]
asciilifeform: the only, afaik, currently extant one [16:08]
asciilifeform: 'postscript' was a much earlier attempt. [16:09]
asciilifeform: it is important to realize the full implications. [16:11]
asciilifeform: per the above scheme, 'glyph' is no longer a 'special' animal. 'mona lisa' can be a glyph, and so can a mandelbrot zoom generated for one particular occasion. [16:12]
asciilifeform: it is simply reduced to what it really is - simply a viewport blit. [16:12]
asciilifeform: instead of some systemwide magic. [16:13]
* asciilifeform bbl [16:13]
asciilifeform: i will give another example! [16:25]
asciilifeform: the SANE way to transport audio is ALSO as a compactified lisp proggy, which takes time T and returns a rational multiplicand for the maximum DAC voltage to be present at that time ! [16:25]
asciilifeform: (for stereo, quadrangular, etc. recordings - you simply need 2+ of these!) [16:25]
asciilifeform: so, e.g., a sinusoid, will be a very short one [16:26]
asciilifeform: a hitler speech - longer [16:26]
asciilifeform: .. consisting of a multitude of Ts and Vs - or fewer, if you include a decompressor of one kind or another [16:26]
asciilifeform: (the correct way to include the decompressor is via v linkage. that is to say, a signed hash thereof, i.e. an index into a wotronic cryptographic global namespace.) [16:27]
trinque: << for teh log readers. [16:27]
asciilifeform: linked earlier [16:27]
trinque: ah right [16:28]
asciilifeform: the beauty is that you can impose hard limits on the evaluating environments for these 'programs', them being non-turingcomplete, and thus you can make mechanical hard pronouncements re their properties. [16:29]
asciilifeform: e.g., that 'will calculate arithmetical answer in C or fewer cycles, and no side effects' [16:29]
asciilifeform: at any rate, all of this is old hat to folks who read my www. [16:30]
asciilifeform: but, granted, it is VERY difficult to digest for folks still viewing the ~possible~ through the shit-glasses of the ~extant~. [16:31]
asciilifeform: e.g., 'fuck you i ain't running no PROGRAMS embedded in no stinkin' music file' [16:31]
* asciilifeform bbl. [16:32]
mircea_popescu: << kinda slow neh ? but yes, i'm in agreement that glyps have no business being involved in programming, it's a display matter not more. [18:30]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 20:04 asciilifeform: just 'is this point black,' eats x, y. [18:30]
mircea_popescu: the problem may also start where keyboards have to have shit printed on them through a legacy process. [18:30]
mircea_popescu: << yes. [18:30]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 20:08 asciilifeform: (svg is a braindamaged monkey implementation of some of the above principles.) [18:30]
mircea_popescu: quite exactly. [18:30]
mircea_popescu: << aha word. [18:31]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 20:29 asciilifeform: the beauty is that you can impose hard limits on the evaluating environments for these 'programs', them being non-turingcomplete, and thus you can make mechanical hard pronouncements re their properties. [18:31]
mircea_popescu: <<->> :D [18:32]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 15:38 asciilifeform: trinque: fact remains, if you think i'm gonna run a binary, ANYONE's binary, for whatever reason, yer smoking dope. [18:32]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 20:31 asciilifeform: e.g., 'fuck you i ain't running no PROGRAMS embedded in no stinkin' music file' [18:32]
phf: funny how a lot of these ideas have been explored, grokked and then promptly not accepted [19:30]
phf: for example NeWS was gui system that did exactly what asciilifeform described, using what they called display postscript [19:31]
phf: [19:32]
phf: or common lisp music which is a subset of common lisp to describe a wavelength generation/transformation/composition (i'm pretty sure it was used to do first computer FM synthesis) [19:33]
phf: (actually news and display postscript are not the same technology, but same idea) [19:34]
phf: [19:35]
phf: << i think of these projects in the same terms i think of "knowledge" in general. same way as there's no abstract scientific knowledge that's somehow "accessible" to "society", there isn't universal good value to naggum's emacs, but there would've been value in naggum's ~to me~ as a kind of abstract node in what i'm hoping is a graph of sane people. same way as "scientific knowledge" is only a kind of comm [19:40]
phf: unication happening across long periods of time and space among certain kind of individuals [19:40]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 19:32 asciilifeform: or naggum's - of emacs ? [19:40]
phf: for example naggum specced out "LOCAL-TIME" concept in his "long painful history of time" paper, and it's an excellent solution. per your argument it's true that the actual communal implementation of local-time is a piece of shit. (if you've never read it, it's really horrible) [19:42]
adlai: CLM (DLed from ) does not compile due to package definitions in wrong files... the joys of bitrot [19:42]
adlai: phf: have you had problems with local-time's functioning? [19:43]
phf: adlai: yes [19:43]
* adlai has treated it as a black box of Just Fucking Works... what went wrong for you? [19:44]
phf: well, there was a bunch of things, so i'm just going to hand waive it, but one major issue is that it doesn't actually have a date, time, datetime separation [19:44]
phf: so 2016-01-01 will do very very wrong things depending on specific timezone combinations [19:44]
adlai: yeah, the abstraction would better be called "timestamp" [19:45]
phf: correct, but if it's timestamp then reader ~must~ fail on missing times, timezones [19:46]
adlai: but then it wouldn't be unix enough! [19:46]
phf: :D [19:46]
adlai: the unixification of common lisp is glorious to behold, like galaxies colliding [19:47]
phf: i got exposed to library as part of my attempt to revive cl-ledger, that actually doesn't need time component at all. as an accounting tool it almost entirely deals with dates (except in its timetracking functionality) [19:47]
phf: and of course, every single assumption ledger makes breaks, when you twiddle you machine's system timezone [19:47]
phf: lugm-time makes it very explicit that this is a wrong behavior [19:48]
trinque: that's heinous. [19:48]
trinque: makes me feel better that so far I've stuck with int representations of time in my CL programs [19:49]
trinque: get-universal-time and whatever the other one is, decode? [19:49]
phf: decode-universal-time, get-decoded-time [19:50]
adlai: local-time:timestamp-to-unix and its vice-versa give you this. i guess my use of local-time has been primarily to display timestamps readably [19:50]
adlai: and parse [19:50]
adlai: the number of bitcoin exchanges that give human-readable timestamps in API calls (because all API calls are done by hand and read by eye, right!?) is too damn high [19:51]
phf: well, problems start manifesting when you start doing math on your times, and asking for things like 2 years and 1 hour later, etc. [19:52]
phf: 2 years from 2016-01-01 is totally different from 2016-01-01T00:00:00Z [19:52]
phf: amusingly where the underlying technology is super solid (because specced out by naggum) interface implementation is piece of shit, because written by kommmunitee [19:53]
phf: amusingly enough java, via joda-time, is one of the few solutions that get it right [19:54]
trinque: enterprise bureaucracy systems must have proper scheduling [19:56]
phf: asciilifeform: but to get back to my point, the fact that local-time as implemented by kommmuniti is shit doesn't have to affect ~me~. i know what the right way (or a better one) of doing things is, but if naggum didn't write his paper, i wouldn't. i thought that's kind of the WoT approach [19:59]
adlai: CLM is thoroughly bitrot _ [20:01]
phf: if naggum wrote his emacs, or at the very least started one, then i wouldn't be necessarily stuck without a text editor i could trust or work with (hemlock being a particularly bad implementation, and emacs corrupted beyond redemption, etc) [20:01]
phf: and even if the kommuniti picked it up and fucked it up we could've still had a "tmsr version -- last naggum release" baseline or whatever [20:02]
mod6: [20:03]
trinque: mod6: nice work on tb0t [20:04]
mod6: hey, thanks trinque o7 [20:05]
mod6: Got the next number of days off here. Gonna try to hit the ground running here in July. [20:08]
mod6: :] [20:09]
* trinque does not want to eventually say "if asciilifeform had built his computer" [20:10]
trinque: phf: isn't the reason he didn't that he was that car without fuel? [20:11]
trinque: my reaction to GPL earlier has to do with that. we're all lamenting the wreckage, and wasn't it precisely that too many morons got involved in the craft? [20:12]
trinque: how is a naggum supposed to do anything if software is free [20:13]
trinque: or if alf's computer is free [20:13]
trinque: I could see myself sharing technology with someone if I see that it benefits me in some way, or at large if it has some strategic benefit to me, and not otherwise in service to a philosophical code [20:14]
trinque: I don't lament that there isn't some opensource naggum editor out there I lament that I can't spend 20k or w/e and buy an actual computer [20:15]
phf: you can lament over both, and work towards both goals [20:18]
phf: not that you have time of course :) [20:19]
asciilifeform: << because gotta unify WHOLE BOX , instead of 'waaaaa it clashes with me Unix Way!111' [20:19]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 23:30 phf: funny how a lot of these ideas have been explored, grokked and then promptly not accepted [20:19]
phf: asciilifeform: i'm not going to be a proxy gabriel! [20:20]
trinque: phf: there's bad economic technology at the root of the rotten tree of computing, is my meandering rant [20:20]
asciilifeform: trinque: unlike cpu etc, i have nfi what solution to your bit would even look like. [20:20]
trinque: me either. still a problem. [20:21]
asciilifeform: wholly martian problem. [20:21]
trinque: army's gotta eat [20:21]
asciilifeform: and since mircea_popescu is sleeping, i will have to barf in his place: [20:21]
asciilifeform: 'only the WEAK eat!' [20:22]
trinque: l0l [20:22]
trinque: could very well be that computing is for the nephews of 2100s Lords. [20:22]
asciilifeform: 'True Übermenschen with Will, live off the energy of the hatred of their contemptible worm enemies!!!!' [20:22]
phf: that sounds more lafond than mp ) [20:23]
asciilifeform: i bet mircea_popescu at least makes coffee from hatred of enemies!11 [20:23]
mircea_popescu: sooo... du has no sorting ? who the fuck! [20:24]
phf: oh shit, mp's back, act busy [20:24]
asciilifeform: du | sort ... [20:25]
mircea_popescu: lol [20:25]
mircea_popescu: yeah, why the fuck not, type pipes every time, cus it's so fucking hard to have a switch. [20:25]
asciilifeform: yoooooniks waaay! [20:25]
mircea_popescu: you know what, du has no reason to even list things other than by size [20:25]
asciilifeform: switches are heathen [20:26]
asciilifeform: pipe. [20:26]
mircea_popescu: i already put the u switch in the fucking name [20:26]
asciilifeform: lel [20:26]
mircea_popescu: next grep is going to need a switch to actually search [20:26]
mircea_popescu: it just thought maybe you want things piped through! [20:26]
mircea_popescu: fuycking windowstards. du -du -du -du. [20:26]
mircea_popescu: and then | du for good measure. because what it could possibly be needed for [20:27]
asciilifeform: du takes input?! [20:27]
phf: blood and tears of windows users [20:28]
asciilifeform: my car runs on that [20:29]
asciilifeform: nearly enough. [20:29]
mircea_popescu: in other news, backup process silently fails because move file > 4gb [20:29]
phf: so plan9 actually got rid of find. you're supposed to use `du|grep` for that [20:29]
mircea_popescu: BECAUSE WHY THE FUCK NOT [20:29]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: dun tell me you were backing up onto fat32 [20:30]
mircea_popescu: nope. [20:30]
mircea_popescu: tb disks all around, plenty of space. [20:30]
asciilifeform: then wtf [20:30]
asciilifeform: ext2 ? [20:30]
mircea_popescu: but someone somewhere decided to go all [20:30]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-21 15:23 mircea_popescu: if the item in question is uploaded via ssh-mysql directly, phpmyadmin (common mysql interface) dies when trying to say "edit" the column, and wordpress itself fails to pipe the content to apache. [20:30]
asciilifeform: from what to what did mircea_popescu move the filez [20:31]
mircea_popescu: one box to another. [20:31]
* trinque mistrusts anything other than rsync for this [20:31]
asciilifeform: yeah but which fs [20:31]
mircea_popescu: they're both the same ext dood. no fs involved. [20:31]
trinque: tried baculas and duplicities and all other manner of bullshit [20:31]
mircea_popescu: trinque just a pile of .sh [20:31]
trinque: ah, what a pain. [20:32]
mircea_popescu: aaanywya. [20:32]
mircea_popescu: << unremarkably, technology has short halflife among monkey tribe. [20:34]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 23:33 phf: or common lisp music which is a subset of common lisp to describe a wavelength generation/transformation/composition (i'm pretty sure it was used to do first computer FM synthesis) [20:34]
mircea_popescu: you know what else was "explored, groked and then... '''not accepted'''" ? linen. [20:35]
mircea_popescu: felt for top hats. [20:35]
mircea_popescu: shoes for women that actually work. you know, to walk in. [20:35]
mircea_popescu: using your hands to cook. [20:35]
mircea_popescu: food made out of organic matter. [20:35]
adlai: amazingly enough software has a halflife even when at rest. CLM doesn't compile today. [20:36]
adlai: (and the bugs are literal bitrot. random # appears in between ', because it feels like it) [20:36]
mircea_popescu: but yes, you're entirely correct in that there's no such thing as "scientific knowledge", in the sense of a sort of secret football team in the sky that plays and wins for the average derp, once each day and twice on sunday. [20:36]
asciilifeform: adlai: could be just your copy ? [20:37]
adlai: try it. it's in walk.lisp. [20:37]
asciilifeform: last i tried, decade or so ago, it built... [20:37]
* adlai ~just~ downloaded it fresh from www [20:37]
asciilifeform: gotta dredge up the thing [20:37]
asciilifeform: perhaps i have the last clean copy.. [20:38]
phf: adlai: clm is not "compile all files without thinking" system [20:38]
mircea_popescu: the things people do once off drugs. [20:38]
asciilifeform: i bet there are stinking allegroisms in there [20:39]
adlai: then why does the .asd have one file, "all.lisp" [20:39]
phf: there aren't allegroisms in there [20:39]
phf: you don't load asd [20:39]
phf: all.lisp does some very specific things [20:39]
phf: and it will fail earlier then it has to touch walk.lisp (i'm pretty sure) [20:39]
adlai: mircea_popescu: amazingly, the last doctor i saw told me that i have two choices: take the meds, or don't... but tell people you're off them [20:39]
mircea_popescu: how come ? [20:40]
adlai: because he thinks i should never touch any drug ever. i didn't ask about coffee or glucose but myeah. [20:40]
* adlai exaggerates slightly, but this doc is not a pill pusher, which is why i sought him out - confirmation bias ftw! [20:41]
phf: adlai: i think that bit is just typo, the '# switch, since that's essentially dead code for all practical purposes [20:41]
mircea_popescu: << yeah, doesn't affect you until you open a dentist's clinic and the customers "are confused". [20:42]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 23:59 phf: asciilifeform: but to get back to my point, the fact that local-time as implemented by kommmuniti is shit doesn't have to affect ~me~. i know what the right way (or a better one) of doing things is, but if naggum didn't write his paper, i wouldn't. i thought that's kind of the WoT approach [20:42]
mircea_popescu: << this is becoming quite the thing huh. [20:43]
a111: Logged on 2016-07-01 00:02 phf: and even if the kommuniti picked it up and fucked it up we could've still had a "tmsr version -- last naggum release" baseline or whatever [20:43]
mircea_popescu: << honestly, gpl, like everything else, started from the wrong premise. an expectation that "all people" WILL wreck your life, and everything you touch. all things, be they science, be they politics, be they family, love, art, whatever the fuck they be - are exactly that, a conversation between A SPECIAL KIND of people over whatever time and space expanses. nothing is open to the "com [20:44]
a111: Logged on 2016-07-01 00:12 trinque: my reaction to GPL earlier has to do with that. we're all lamenting the wreckage, and wasn't it precisely that too many morons got involved in the craft? [20:44]
mircea_popescu: mon man". not one thing. [20:44]
mircea_popescu: the moment the bs with "everyone" and "anyone" and so on starts, the game's lost, all that's to be still established is the exact manner in which the fuck-up will manifest. but the fuck-up is already baked in at that early point. [20:45]
mircea_popescu: of course, as the legendary fool who's shown the moon and looks at the finger, people will then debate "what did it", in terms of, you know, if only we flavoured communism shit with THIS vanilla bean! [20:46]
trinque: $s remove trust [20:46]
a111: 14 results for "remove trust", [20:46]
mircea_popescu: << the concept of "free" as used here is unsound. there is such a thing as technological cost. linux is free, it can bash, derps whine about "firefox automation tools". hurr. [20:47]
a111: Logged on 2016-07-01 00:15 trinque: I don't lament that there isn't some opensource naggum editor out there I lament that I can't spend 20k or w/e and buy an actual computer [20:47]
mircea_popescu: the correct model i think is sex. sex is free, to the asker it goes for a song. but it depends which asker and what song. [20:47]
asciilifeform: 'linux is free if yer time has 0 value!11' (tm) (r) [20:48]
mircea_popescu: but in other lulz, my first computer cost, in ppp, about 200k in today's usd. [20:48]
asciilifeform: the pdp . [20:49]
asciilifeform: . [20:49]
mircea_popescu: no, a 286 with a 14 inch display. [20:49]
asciilifeform: ah [20:49]
mircea_popescu: salaries at the time 2-4k or so rol/mo rol to usd ~100 machine cost like 1800 or so if memory serves. [20:49]
asciilifeform: my 'искра', 8086 made for tank, ~same [20:50]
asciilifeform: lulzily, iirc a smbx 36xx was about 100k american usd in late '80s [20:51]
mircea_popescu: the only difference between actual people and the us scumbags is that someone apparently told the latter they have a say. [20:52]
mircea_popescu: so then they gotta opine on things and matters. [20:52]
asciilifeform: about ~= twin engined airplane, or basic ferrari [20:52]
mircea_popescu: << while that true, not applicable here. you should see what a standard office drone does with a large csv in his excel. 8 hour work day so as to avoid 20 minutes' worth of awk, and that includes the time reading docs. [20:54]
a111: Logged on 2016-07-01 00:48 asciilifeform: 'linux is free if yer time has 0 value!11' (tm) (r) [20:54]
asciilifeform: incidentally, i should like to learn what became of, e.g., racal norsk's lispm. or the french one, whose name escapes me [20:54]
asciilifeform: the euro folk were poor, and their lispms yet costlier and fewer in number than in usa [20:55]
asciilifeform: to the point that ~0 afaik remain... [20:55]
phf: or got alan kay'd (guy owns connection machine) [20:56]
asciilifeform: a fellow i know bought one [20:57]
asciilifeform: it sat in his cellar for a decade [20:57]
adlai: reading SoTRB, lemme get this straight: it's impossible to download openssl without... openssl? [20:57]
asciilifeform: (he never found a lispm to drive it with) [20:57]
phf: does he still have it? [20:57]
asciilifeform: phf: nope, iirc his wife threw it [20:58]
phf: don't tell me things like that [20:58]
asciilifeform: lel [20:58]
phf: fwiw she threw out a rembrandt, since it could be sold for 10-20-30k? [20:58]
asciilifeform: complicated [20:59]
asciilifeform: recall my attempt at selling ordinary 3620? [20:59]
asciilifeform: picture the cost of moving a cm [20:59]
phf: yeah, you're refusing to sell it, is what it is :> [20:59]
asciilifeform: it is still for sale, lol [21:00]
phf: list it on ebay, say "buyer figures out shipping options", it'll got for 4-5k [21:00]
asciilifeform: but i ain't stuffing it in a box with the usual moneyback [21:00]
phf: yeah, nobody will expect you to [21:00]
asciilifeform: because death is ~100% [21:00]
asciilifeform: unless hand-carried, in which case it is maybe 30% [21:01]
phf: you know that people who do these kind of things understand the issue :) [21:01]
asciilifeform: yeah and they charge 5k [21:01]
mircea_popescu: gotta love these boxes doing 7MB/s tho. for srs. 3gb in 7 minutes ? sign me up [21:01]
phf: asciilifeform: your buyer will pay it, is my point [21:01]
mircea_popescu: adlai yeah. [21:02]
asciilifeform: and when it arrives dead? [21:02]
mircea_popescu: nuts. [21:02]
phf: asciilifeform: buyer will be very sad, recap it, test it, etc. [21:02]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you know there is such a thing in business as "FOB" [21:02]
phf: for example i bought an xl1201, it's been sitting at a friend's place in seattle for 8 months now, because it's waiting for me to go there in person and pick it up myself [21:02]
asciilifeform: most likely crt will pop [21:02]
asciilifeform: it used a custom tube by 'clinton', not replaceable [21:03]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ? [21:03]
mircea_popescu: "free on board". come pick it up if you don't we throw it in the water. [21:03]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that wouldn't net any real money [21:04]
mircea_popescu: how do you know what things would or wouldn't! [21:04]
asciilifeform: my only remaining interest in the thing is to net top dollarz [21:04]
phf: asciilifeform: if you're serious about selling it, i can make it happen. only reason i've not been pursuing this line, is because you're preemptively sabotaging the whole thing [21:05]
mircea_popescu: yes, but you're mixing things. (the item) is not = (the item) + (transport service for the item). you can't want "the item" to net you top dollars through sometyhing that's not the item. [21:05]
mircea_popescu: you wanna make money in logistics, get busy. [21:05]
mircea_popescu: you wanna make money selling item, sell item. [21:05]
asciilifeform: thing is still in my because i have 0 interest in working for min wage. [21:06]
asciilifeform: (which month of work to sell a few k$ box, is) [21:06]
adlai: btw, the way to get something sold is to pay a salesman commission. [21:06]
asciilifeform: *my kitchen [21:06]
mircea_popescu: there is such a thing as economic inefficiencies, yeah. [21:06]
mircea_popescu: adlai apparently they ran out of jews in washington. [21:07]
asciilifeform: adlai: i dun keep one on retainer, sadly [21:07]
adlai: last i checked, tmsr has an ex-salesman? or at least a blogger who blogs a lot about how to sell [21:07]
adlai: throwimabone! [21:07]
mircea_popescu: it'd be better to recruit a local than to make someone leave warm sunny canada! [21:07]
asciilifeform: aint got none in my meatwot. [21:07]
mircea_popescu: and as a general fucking principle : make girlfriends, yo, don't figure out how to all be buttbudies. [21:08]
asciilifeform: and aint trusting strangers. [21:08]
adlai: i don't think you sell a lispm door-to-door [21:08]
mircea_popescu: a republic in every town! [21:08]
phf: asciilifeform: last time we talked about i basically got an impression that you don't want to sell it, which has been reconfirmed by this conversation, which is unfortunate since there are people who would actually put it to good use. [21:08]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform trust, what trust. trade with 'em, fuck 'em , and so following. [21:08]
adlai: how about you sell me a call on it [21:08]
asciilifeform: the box is on track to star in asciilifeform's peine forte et dure. [21:08]
mircea_popescu: nobody's saying to eatr with them, pray with them, etc. [21:08]
adlai: ie, you keep it, not for sale, and i pay rent [21:09]
adlai: phf outbids me and that's how markets are born [21:09]
mircea_popescu: o.O [21:09]
phf: adlai: i don't actually need it, i have an xl1201, which i bought after i realized asciilifeform is not going to sell his one. but i know at least 3 people that will pay recent ebay prices for it [21:10]
asciilifeform: anyway it can only be sold via wot, because buyer has to take my word that the thing isn't ~currently~ the pile of scrap it will almost certainly turn into when it moves. [21:10]
mircea_popescu: the buyer also has to shave her snatch and milk > 1 cup per teat. [21:10]
phf: ^ [21:10]
mircea_popescu: and if any redheads show signs of getting pregnant for this purpose, it'll be no gingers. [21:11]
mircea_popescu: (which is understandable - you need a soul to lisp) [21:11]
* adlai reminds that his plan fell through to to problems on his own end [21:11]
asciilifeform: basically the exercise isn't worth my time for what i am likely to expend in time and what can realistically sell for. [21:11]
adlai: specifically, people liking to pay usg taxes [21:11]
asciilifeform: if thing were worth 20k, then perhaps [21:11]
adlai: inb4 "those are not 'people'" [21:11]
mircea_popescu: phf you laugh at him all you want, but his mental process is sensible, or at least common. if you think about it, why exactly is it that most wives aren't being turned out as we speak ? [21:11]
mircea_popescu: EXACTLY this, illusory or real. [21:12]
phf: i'm not even laughing, i'm mostly pissed [21:12]
* asciilifeform has a ~very~ acute perception of the value of his time [21:12]
asciilifeform: result of long stretch in butugychag [21:12]
adlai: would you be willing to show a non-technical (but intelligent) visitor that it works? [21:13]
asciilifeform: yes. [21:13]
asciilifeform: if in wot [21:13]
phf: his objections are bogus, even the time/money thing, and they go through the usual asciilifeform escalations. thing can be taken of his hands within a week, for $5k or so, with no effort on his part, besides "take it to the front porch when a man gets there" [21:13]
* adlai has relatives close to alf [21:13]
asciilifeform: adlai: machine can be in silver spring, md, working, on a week's notice. [21:14]
* adlai said maryland!? [21:14]
asciilifeform: aha. [21:14]
adlai: they don't have to visit your house, but i never said maryland [21:15]
asciilifeform: office. [21:15]
adlai: aha. [21:15]
mircea_popescu: phf yeah, but then he wouldn't have it anymore. [21:15]
* adlai will get back on this issue, unless phf's meatwot beats his meatwot to the meatpunch [21:15]
asciilifeform: takin' bids.. [21:16]
asciilifeform: i have both old and new-type kbd. [21:16]
asciilifeform: old console, strictly, and 1 triax cable. [21:16]
asciilifeform: also buncha dud boards for various xl machines [21:17]
asciilifeform: and an empty tape drive chassis. [21:17]
phf: mircea_popescu: that's what i figured [21:17]
mats: Microsoft's 'Office 365' choked today [21:17]
asciilifeform: mats: how's that [21:18]
mats: work was not fun, i think virtually everyone with 365 was unable to send or receive external mail [21:18]
mircea_popescu: lmao [21:18]
mats: fucking cloud services [21:18]
mats: [21:20]
asciilifeform: run moar microshit!111 [21:20]
asciilifeform: btw if i had phf 's xl, i wouldn't sell [21:21]
asciilifeform: xl is spiffy [21:21]
asciilifeform: takes scsi disks [21:22]
asciilifeform: and doesn't need console [21:22]
asciilifeform: (can x11 into it) [21:22]
asciilifeform: ~indestructible. [21:22]
mircea_popescu: if you DID have it, you wouldn't sell the 3620. because great. [21:23]
asciilifeform: i had 3620 because poorfag [21:23]
asciilifeform: << for anyone trying to follow thread [21:25]
asciilifeform: ^ thing is about the size of pc fulltower, but weighs ~40kg, and console - similar [21:27]
asciilifeform: pulls ~= same wattage as a large vacuum cleaner, and sounds also very much like one when operating. [21:28]
asciilifeform: , << console. [21:31]
phf: my first attempted motorcycle purchase went exactly like this. i show up, and the bike's fucking spiffy, a honda cafe racer conversion. i saw it on craigslist, research all the things, etc. etc. the conversation went something like "check out this thing that i did to this bike – ooh yeah it's cool, so i want to pick it up – yeah i replaced the pipe from this one to this other one - yeah i saw the original this is much better, so i want to pick [21:33]
phf: it up - oh and the seat is leather - very classy so i want to pick it up - anyway, maybe you should think about it - nah i want to pick it up - well give it a day or something - ... ok i'll pick it up tomorrow" haven't heard anything from the guy. [21:33]
asciilifeform: lel! [21:33]
asciilifeform: was it an 'ural' ?? [21:33]
asciilifeform: oh honda [21:34]
asciilifeform: anyway no riced pipes in this one. [21:34]
BingoBoingo: * adlai exaggerates slightly, but this doc is not a pill pusher, which is why i sought him out - confirmation bias ftw! << Or he wants a baseline adlai without lsd... [22:04]
mircea_popescu: phf imagine if brothels worked like that. [22:04]
mircea_popescu: and in other nerws, [22:07]
mircea_popescu: "alpha cuck" [22:08]
BingoBoingo: deedbot: [23:00]
BingoBoingo: ^ trinque [23:02]
BingoBoingo: how to deed nao? [23:05]
deedbot: [Qntra] Qntra (S.QNTR) June 2016 Report - [23:06]
deedbot: [Qntra] Symantec Snake Oil Goes Rancid - [23:08]
mircea_popescu: deedbot [23:09]
mircea_popescu: hm. [23:09]
BingoBoingo: Was that still the missing other deedbot- job? [23:10]
mircea_popescu: "to 6 Honduran policeman on Wednesday" << policemen [23:10]
mircea_popescu: trinque hey seriously, no way to deed ? since whenever ? [23:10]
mircea_popescu: " not one of the every other countries that likes cocaine too" << "not one of the other countries where they like cocaine too" [23:11]
BingoBoingo: fxd [23:12]
asciilifeform: in other 'news', this year's underhanded c contest is a lul: [23:13]
asciilifeform: 'This year's challenge (detailed below) is a real-world problem in nuclear verification, sponsored by and designed in partnership with the Nuclear Threat Initiative (, a nonprofit, nonpartisan organization working to reduce the threat of ...' [23:14]
mircea_popescu: did they decide to make it about being nice to fat women instead ? [23:14]
asciilifeform: nah that's next year's!111 [23:14]
mircea_popescu: "nonprofit, nonpartisan" sounds like it's a clinton-for-president thing [23:14]
BingoBoingo: Oh, mircea_popescu speaks 'Murican nao? [23:15]
mircea_popescu: hm ? [23:15]
asciilifeform: these are standard americanisms used by registered chur^H^H^H^Hnonprofits [23:15]
BingoBoingo: The whole decoding Clintonese [23:15]
mircea_popescu: mkay. [23:16]
BingoBoingo: Clintonese is a New York dialect that Pretends to be a hillbilly Arkansas tongue until it can use its husand like the first stage of a rocket for its own political career [23:17]
asciilifeform: incidentally, re - i suggest 'church of integrity' - loosely from hanbot's 'shall be delivered' [23:22]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 13:22 mircea_popescu: shinohai kinda why i put this in the open, so people can come up with a good name maybe. [23:22]
trinque: it's $deed [23:22]
trinque: the thing does more than one command now [23:22]
mircea_popescu: church of x is a little dubious neh ? [23:22]
trinque: BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu ^ [23:22]
asciilifeform: ratin' folx - sacrament. [23:22]
trinque: $deed [23:22]
deedbot: hands you a broomstick. [23:22]
mircea_popescu: trinque ah ah cool. [23:22]
BingoBoingo: $deed [23:22]
deedbot: hands you a broomstick. [23:22]
trinque: aw crap [23:22]
trinque: lol [23:22]
mircea_popescu: kik [23:22]
mircea_popescu: $help [23:22]
deedbot: [23:22]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: can always skip the 'church of' prefix. [23:23]
mircea_popescu: ^ not in there! [23:23]
trinque: I'll make sure that one goes through, and $deed will work in a few min [23:23]
mircea_popescu: $feed [23:23]
trinque: yeah will update help too [23:23]
trinque: there aren't any feed commands I just put them in the db [23:23]
mircea_popescu: kik [23:23]
Category: Logs
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