Forum logs for 26 Jan 2019

Monday, 16 March, Year 12 d.Tr. | Author:
* asciilifeform sold. [00:00]
asciilifeform: re 'orange man', apparently caved today [00:02]
asciilifeform: re the shitdown. [00:03]
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Mentioned earlier [00:03]
BingoBoingo: I read less of a cave, more let them choke on cake [00:03]
mircea_popescu: how's that work ? [00:04]
asciilifeform: << aa [00:04]
a111: Logged on 2019-01-25 19:47 BingoBoingo: In other news, it looks like Trump agrees with OMB on the furlough thing per Agreeing to turn the government back on for 3 weeks and then declaring emergency [00:04]
BingoBoingo: Trump gives Pantsuit voters paychecks through 2-15-2019, after that they deliver his wall or he declares and emergency and heads roll to be impaled on artistically designed steel border slats [00:05]
BingoBoingo: I read Trump seeing that blame in this dispute is still not sufficiently laid upon Nancy's failure to engage Trump. For that reason Trump is teasing Nancy with 3 weeks to engage or hang herself. [00:09]
asciilifeform: i dunget why not tease with another +3wks of hunger [00:09]
BingoBoingo: Too many weeks of hunger they die. Gotta toss some carbs occasionally to sustain the suffering. [00:10]
asciilifeform: lol what die. i dunget the whiners, either, what sorta office inmate wouldn't kill for month of vacation ( even unpaid ) [00:12]
BingoBoingo: 3 weeks of food means he can run to November 2020 selling how reasonable he was [00:12]
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> lol what die. i dunget the whiners, either, what sorta office inmate wouldn't kill for month of vacation ( even unpaid ) << Maduro's Venezuela has some pretty sweet beaches now forbidden to according to intel. [00:13]
BingoBoingo: Culturally Vzla is Batista's Cuba with a culinary norm higher than ham sandwiches [00:18]
mircea_popescu: i guess i can see it. [00:20]
* BingoBoingo has read many "trump surrendered" gut reaction pieces which all neglected time value. What are 3 weeks out of 104 weeks. [00:24]
BingoBoingo: For all the years Castros have held Cuba, Cuba like the rest of the island caribeans lacks an answer to the Areps [00:30]
BingoBoingo: *Arepa [00:30]
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo reading through this crap i see what you mean not exactly exultant pantsuit on the receiving end of trump's mercy. seems rather most of the low level bureaucracy will vote trump next, notwithstanding it owes so much to a lengthy clintonism. [00:46]
mircea_popescu: in bernie bernbaum's tems, "what have you done for me lately", and ESPECIALLY "how likely do you look to be able to do much". [00:47]
BingoBoingo: Right, the only exultant mouths are Buzzfat reporters getting laid off, to be included in a weekend roundup of Pantsuit trips and falls [00:48]
BingoBoingo: Maduro thrives on low level bureacracy. I doubt anyone is taking Nancy seriously after she proposed the same sum Trump wanted, but for robodogs. [00:50]
BingoBoingo: We live in times when la calle Libertad crosses Obligado y Trabajo but las calles Julio Caesar and Marco Bruto never touch [01:04]
diana_coman: -> didn't rummage as too late yest but woke up this morning with this: when a= n-1 step 2.2 aka y=a^r mod n becomes y= (n-1)^r mod n using for instance binomial expansion you have (n-1)^r = n^r + rC1*n^(r-1)*(-1)+rC2*n^(r-2)*(-1)^2+....+rC(r-1)*n*(-1)^(r-1)+(-1)^r since the whole thing was "mod n", of all those terms you are in fact left with only the last one, aka y = (-1)^r mod n r is odd so [03:58]
a111: Logged on 2019-01-25 19:49 asciilifeform: diana_coman: plox to post if you turn it up. [03:58]
diana_coman: that's (-1) mod n so y= n-1 and then there's nothing to do at step 2.3 [03:58]
feedbot: << The Tar Pit -- Feedbot manual [06:17]
asciilifeform: diana_coman: this dun make sense to me [10:41]
asciilifeform: << for folx following the thread, context [10:42]
diana_coman: asciilifeform, specific? [10:42]
asciilifeform: diana_coman: 'nothing to do' is because it's a legit witness! algo returns 'prime'. ( and in non-constanttime incarnations, this is the ideal, shortcut case in fact ) [10:42]
asciilifeform: i.e. case where a^r mod n = 1 or n - 1 . [10:44]
diana_coman: it is a leggit witness, yes do you mean that it's not counted as it should be? [10:45]
asciilifeform: it makes sense to exclude a=0 and a=1, they give no useful information. but a = n - 1 gives. [10:45]
diana_coman: what information does it give? [10:45]
asciilifeform: diana_coman: correct. in implementations where a is forced to <= n - 2, n - 1 is excluded [10:45]
asciilifeform: diana_coman: it's a witness for some numbers. like erry other witness-for-some-numbers. [10:45]
asciilifeform: so why to exclude it ? [10:46]
diana_coman: hm it always says "prime" though by definition so I'm not sure *what* information is missed when you exclude it [10:47]
* asciilifeform goes to chalkboard , brb [10:48]
asciilifeform: diana_coman: it does ~not~ 'always return prime'. only returns prime if (n - 1)^r mod n is 1 or n - 1. [10:52]
asciilifeform: diana_coman: you can trivially see that it correctly judges e.g. 12 to be composite. [10:52]
asciilifeform: it's a perfectly 'kosher' witness for a very large chunk of the number line. [10:53]
diana_coman: asciilifeform, ? mind working me through that? I might be thick here [10:56]
diana_coman: alternatively: do you see a whole in my previous maffs? [10:56]
diana_coman: a hole, lol [10:57]
asciilifeform: diana_coman: bin(12) == 1100 . then r = 2. then, (n - 1)^r mod n == 11^2 mod 12 == 1. 12 is pronounced composite. [10:58]
diana_coman: o.o "such that r is odd" [10:58]
diana_coman: 2 is odd? [10:58]
asciilifeform: hm [10:59]
diana_coman: -> specifically, here [10:59]
a111: Logged on 2019-01-26 08:58 diana_coman: -> didn't rummage as too late yest but woke up this morning with this: when a= n-1 step 2.2 aka y=a^r mod n becomes y= (n-1)^r mod n using for instance binomial expansion you have (n-1)^r = n^r + rC1*n^(r-1)*(-1)+rC2*n^(r-2)*(-1)^2+....+rC(r-1)*n*(-1)^(r-1)+(-1)^r since the whole thing was "mod n", of all those terms you are in fact left with only the last one, aka y = (-1)^r mod n r is odd so [10:59]
diana_coman: that is my proof that always y= n-1 for a= n-1 [10:59]
diana_coman: unless I have a mistake in there [10:59]
* asciilifeform goes to walk the thing again [10:59]
* asciilifeform still waking up, will have tea and ~then~ come back to item [11:01]
diana_coman: no hurry if I have a mistake in there I certainly want to know [11:01]
* diana_coman will bbl [11:01]
asciilifeform: diana_coman: r = 3 indeed. (n - 1)^r mod n == 11^3 mod 12 == 11 == n - 1. [11:03]
asciilifeform: to redo the earlier munged example: bin(12) == 1100. s = 2. r = 3. (n - 1)^r mod n == (12 - 1)^3 mod 12 == 11^3 mod 12 == 11, i.e. n - 1. witness. [11:05]
diana_coman: ugh asciilifeform honestly, please walk through my working [11:06]
asciilifeform: ok, i'ma go an' set the kettle, bbl. [11:07]
diana_coman: enjoy! [11:07]
asciilifeform: while it boils : btw log readers can ignore the earlier arithm, it is entirely off ( asciilifeform computed r * 2^s = n instead of r * 2^s = n - 1 ... ) [11:11]
asciilifeform: i ought not to do these before breakfast. [11:11]
* asciilifeform bbl [11:12]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's only a witness for EVEN composites tho ? [11:49]
asciilifeform: guten morgen mircea_popescu [12:03]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: asciilifeform elementarily made rubbish on the chalkboard, redoing whole thing nao. [12:04]
asciilifeform: ( in re this subthread, example proggy posted 2d ago was afaik correct ) [12:05]
asciilifeform: diana_coman: yours is correct. [12:17]
shinohai: xpost for trb-ists: [12:18]
asciilifeform: diana_coman: no hole. [12:19]
asciilifeform: diana_coman et al : i'ma rewrite my proofism from beginning, to see if i committed any other atrocity. [12:27]
* asciilifeform already ended up having to do this 1ce, for barrettism [12:30]
asciilifeform: shinohai: i dun have any nitpicks , other than to note that the canonical gnat is ave1's [12:32]
asciilifeform: rather than adacorpse's [12:32]
shinohai: Is next on agendas, to try ave1's. [12:33]
shinohai: ( Currently, ave1 's website gives me "Your PHP installation appears to be missing the MySQL extension which is required by WordPress.") [12:34]
asciilifeform: hm it does indeed [12:35]
asciilifeform: ave1: ^ ? [12:35]
asciilifeform: shinohai: 1 other thing -- screenshits of shell are pretty hard to read (on e.g. asciilifeform's display), i recommend to use same textblock as you use elsewhere ( e.g. where 'list of dependencies' ) rather than screenshit [12:39]
shinohai: nb ... One thing lacking on blog is still proper css codeblock. [12:40]
asciilifeform: imho it really aint important that the shell colours etc be preserved [12:41]
asciilifeform: can use same styling as you did for the curls etc [12:41]
shinohai: (The color is leftover from vanilla install anyways, I usually strip this from .bashrc for daily use) [12:42]
asciilifeform: shinohai: it's same problem as with not only cannot be cut&paste'd or searched, but on folx having very diff display from orig author's, inevitably loox like soup [12:43]
a111: Logged on 2019-01-25 20:04 asciilifeform so far even avoided bitmapped maffs, in the vein of e.g. [12:43]
asciilifeform: bitmaps are a 'necessary evil' if yer displaying spread chix, or mandelbrots, or -isms, etc but for text you really wanna have text. [12:44]
shinohai: I rather enjoyed that post, btw. The soldering on that board is just beautiful. [12:47]
asciilifeform: shinohai: they were pretty ordinary '80s wave-solder [12:47]
asciilifeform: ( and even with the apparently-inescapable '80s pcb layout mistakes -- there's a few blue 'bodge wire' in there ) [12:48]
asciilifeform: shinohai: << wave soldering illustration. [12:50]
shinohai: Everyone knows this is the true way to solder: [12:52]
asciilifeform: lol [12:52]
asciilifeform: shinohai: see also ( 'rectothermal cryptoanalyzer' ) . [12:55]
shinohai: ibid: <<< kek [12:56]
asciilifeform: shinohai: << see alsox2. [12:57]
mircea_popescu: anyone have a ready link to asciilifeform 's celebrated "in order for me to do anything else i'd have to have three trillion dollars in gold brick first" ? [12:57]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: prolly there's >1 !111 got specific thrd in mind ? [12:58]
mircea_popescu: first will work. [12:58]
mircea_popescu: believe it or not you figure by way of illustration in latest trilema opus. [12:58]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ? [12:58]
a111: Logged on 2017-02-19 03:54 asciilifeform: (iirc we had a thread where i described how corporate ameritards, if given a problem like phuctor, would happily soak up a few $mil and megawatt of iron) [12:58]
feedbot: << Qntra -- Weekend Roundup: Trump Gives Nancy 3 Weeks, Neocon War Boner Building [12:58]
mircea_popescu: no, no. you personally, "to move" or w/e it was. [12:58]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: mountain of gold brick sounds like a lethal overdose, lol [12:59]
mircea_popescu: fifteen galons to the ton, not so bad. [13:00]
asciilifeform: i dun mean 'bust open guts trying to move it', but 'when somebody gets wind that you have it' [13:01]
asciilifeform: see also captain kidd. [13:02]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you might be thinking of old flamefest ( possibly with diana_coman & mircea_popescu ) where asciilifeform was asked 'why dontcha quit yer dayjob' and asciilifeform answered 'would consider it, if , like the 2 of you, had enuff coin to permanently leave slave market , with x% engineering margin' or sumthing of the kind [13:06]
asciilifeform: speaking of which, [13:07]
asciilifeform: !#seen Mocky [13:07]
a111: 2019-01-23 <Mocky> being chucked into the air? [13:07]
mircea_popescu: that's exactly what i'm thinking of. [13:07]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: can't seem to dredge it up in O(1). feel free to cite the summary tho, if writing a piece to laff at asciilifeform , who is big boy and wont cry [13:08]
mircea_popescu: ah, not in the slightest. [13:09]
asciilifeform: and hey, asciilifeform is not even the worst horse in that gluefactory, the 1000 btc or whatever it was i calculated then, is still coupla orders of magnitude smaller than that d00d we had who 'couldn't do' until he had orbiting station with solar sail or what was it ( kanzure ? ) [13:11]
mircea_popescu: yeah, but you we care about. [13:12]
asciilifeform: lolk [13:12]
* asciilifeform read the magick pike fish tale as a kid, and therefore knows where to stop!111 [13:13]
asciilifeform: ( e.g. don't ask the golden fish to 'explain turbulence!' ) [13:14]
asciilifeform: speaking of 'where to stop', diana_coman i still dunhave a Troo proof that after r - 1 shots, the squaring loop really does always cycle so unless i find one, i'ma have to put in a mux there. [13:16]
asciilifeform: re fishes -- ru folklore notably contains ~2~ wish-granting fish stories : 1, the internationally familiar one, where old fishwife keeps ramping up the wishitude until she overflows the register and gets fucked and ~other~, where young lad knows how to use the fish, and gets half of kingdom , via process [13:21]
a111: Logged on 2018-08-14 20:45 asciilifeform: btw the orig folktale included mega-line 'and many did the stove crush as it went' [13:21]
asciilifeform: << illustrated. [13:21]
a111: Logged on 2018-08-14 20:45 asciilifeform: << '80s ver [13:21]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: dun fughet to link to prikoke, also, asciilifeform still wont cry, promise. [13:28]
mircea_popescu: lmao. you know, many have tried, none have yet succeeded in guessing as much as a title, as much as a sentence, afore i publish my brew. [13:38]
asciilifeform: this is as it should be. [13:38]
feedbot: << Trilema -- The three watches [14:11]
diana_coman: sadly I don't have proof for it [14:27]
a111: Logged on 2019-01-26 18:16 asciilifeform: speaking of 'where to stop', diana_coman i still dunhave a Troo proof that after r - 1 shots, the squaring loop really does always cycle so unless i find one, i'ma have to put in a mux there. [14:27]
mircea_popescu: induction, neh ? if it cycles k times how's it to stop cycling. [14:28]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: to reformulate: need proof that the working reg will never equal 1 or n - 1 ~after~ r - 1 shots. [14:51]
asciilifeform: ( unless it did so during the 1st r - 1 . ) [14:51]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: [14:56]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if you were looking for a 'k vs r -strategy' illustration, this is prolly the worst possible 1. i'dve used , e.g., 'columbus send 3 $maxint boats but vikings did same with 9000 dragonheads costing ~epsilon ea.' or sumthing like it. [15:01]
asciilifeform: iirc we ~did~ have a thread where 'why didn't they make a chronometer that can be stuffed up arse, for constant temp' tho. [15:02]
mircea_popescu: answer't. [15:06]
asciilifeform: answr't^2. [15:09]
diana_coman: ahaha, I refrained from commenting because I thought "uhm, I have NO idea exactly HOW were those watches broken" but my first thought was that they were likely unpredictably broken i.e. each will show ~random hour rather than "time with x error" [15:09]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: to reformulate -- in order for redundancy to do anyffin (whether yer dealing with clocks, or RNGs, or any other instrument) the error gotta be ~uncorrelated~ b/w the units [15:13]
mircea_popescu: reformulate there if ye will ? [15:15]
asciilifeform: aite, 1s [15:15]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: done [15:21]
asciilifeform: << a++ vintage ref on subj, btw [15:26]
a111: Logged on 2017-02-17 04:27 phf: re "apprentice as watchmaker" i picked up first edition of The Marine Chronometer by Gould. i would call it "delightful" [15:26]
asciilifeform: ( and additionally apropos ) [15:27]
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 18:13 phf: i supper proper presentation of fg schematics in a v-tron is either in the style of the marine chronometer book i have next to me or not at all. "taking first the essentials, c is the escape wheel. the escapement consists of the bar E, carrying the two projections e, e' etc". everything else ought to be handled separately [15:27]
mircea_popescu: (fwiw, i got trilema comments on feedbot 's rss, so it notifies me if/when anyone says something) [15:29]
asciilifeform: answ^3. [15:30]
asciilifeform: aaah ok [15:30]
asciilifeform: i'ma not pollute the log then. [15:30]
mircea_popescu: diana_coman if you think about it, that's strictly impossible. they do indeed show delta time each tick, so it's dead reckoning. how the heck would they produce strictly random time. [15:40]
* asciilifeform brb,meat [16:01]
mircea_popescu: awww [17:10]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: last comment has jpg link, sits in modqueue [17:41]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: for thread-completeness - same jp folx (and others) also sell a temp-controlled 'oven' xtal, warrantied to 1 ppm. these draw lotsa current, comparatively, and cost 50x moar, so i did not use in FG ( where the accuracy of the oscillator is solely to put out the expected baud rate, and it dun do any good to make it substantially higher than the receiving machine's ) [17:49]
asciilifeform: i use'em ('txco' being the generic term for subj) in radio. [17:50]
asciilifeform: < subj. [17:50]
asciilifeform: incidentally, even txco has high enuff 'jitter' that fairly good rng can and has been built solely from'em. [17:52]
asciilifeform: ( the problem with doing so, is the 'aging' effect -- the amt of jitter tends to vary as time passes and the fact of it being a rather expensive means of collecting thermal noise, resistor worx very similarly and costs 1% of what xtal costs ) [17:54]
* asciilifeform bbl:maffs [18:09]
Mocky: << I finally got job offer yesterday [18:22]
a111: Logged on 2019-01-26 18:07 asciilifeform: !#seen Mocky [18:22]
Mocky: by the looks of it, will go approx 4 days without food money before first paycheck, so this was cut pretty close [18:24]
Mocky: which means mooching off family, not actual hunger btw [18:24]
mircea_popescu: well, what doesn't starve you edifies you or how did it igo. [19:16]
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