Forum logs for 22 Aug 2017

Monday, 16 March, Year 12 d.Tr. | Author:

BingoBoingo:	Dedicated to our new friend The_Moon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1fzJ_AYajA	[01:02]
mircea_popescu:	!!up brlbg	[01:43]
deedbot:	brlbg voiced for 30 minutes.	[01:43]
brlbg:	trilema under ddos?	[01:43]
mircea_popescu:	http://trilema.com/forum-logs-for-21-aug-2017#2326659 << afaik the only benefit educational, and it will follow from cutting apart a live woman and re-sealing her. not out of cutting apart an deviantart drawing.	[01:43]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-21 11:33 spyked: also, is there any worth in trying to "physicalize" the virtual lisp machine stuff? genera runs on that from what I read.	[01:43]
mircea_popescu:	however talented teh artist.	[01:43]
mircea_popescu:	brlbg seems a little slow.	[01:44]
brlbg:	i get a 'complete' time out	[01:46]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-21#1701414 << empire is not organised towards "protecting of the proles" or any other statement with the proles as a subject. the proles (understood deductively, as "all people", just as they understand govenment deductively, see prev discussion), as well as the environment generally are the objects, not the subjects of imperial discourse.	[01:47]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-21 11:41 spyked: !~later tell mircea_popescu re http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-20#1701196 <-- yah, but does protecting the "proles" from own stupidity even make any sense as a statement? sorta relates to idea on Trilema on whether the empire wanted to arrive to this point (can't find it right now). enfranchisement of the stupid directly lead to that.	[01:47]
mircea_popescu:	empire is organised towards "functioning economy" ie production of goods, or "functioning culture" ie production of truths. all the subjects in imperial statements are ideals of this kind.	[01:47]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-21#1701432 << ah you two know each other ?	[01:49]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-21 12:00 spyked: !!rate valentinbuza 3 fierce hacker, cracker with research mindset	[01:49]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-21#1701443 << you know my dear asciilifeform , so did unix.	[01:49]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-21 12:04 asciilifeform: whereas physical 'ivory' happily did multi year uptime	[01:49]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-21#1701444 << you can work towards the fuck you please. like say the http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=balanced+ternary or the http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=serial+computer or so on.	[01:51]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-21 12:05 spyked: ok, so to sum up 1. get ice40 fpga 2. run fpga lisp machine (cadr?) work from that towards symbolics/ivory, or the other way around starting from symbolics.	[01:51]
mircea_popescu:	hmm, that last ref is unexpectedly useless. anyway, item discussed in logs recently (and historically), http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-30#1677546 etc	[01:52]
a111:	Logged on 2017-06-30 16:51 asciilifeform: so adder, multer, etc, etc all exist simply as devices that hang from 1 set of wires.	[01:52]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-21#1701453 << why ?	[01:57]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-21 12:12 spyked: asciilifeform, what do you think of minimal baremetal implementation of Lisp (RISC assembly only) on something like a MIPS core? I might be thinking this in too abstract terms, it's definitely not that easy. but I'm trying to find a middle way between working FPGA Lisp machine and Lisp on unix.	[01:57]
mircea_popescu:	heh trilema gateway blew up. should be back within hours. thanks for reporting gl.	[01:59]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-21#1701494 << i always suspected the item will crumble under examination, but then again i'm just a hater.	[02:03]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-21 14:49 phf: now i didn't find out about race conditions myself, that data point came from dks, they discovered race conditions as part of the emulator rewrite, but they have the benefit of having access to the necessary low level bits	[02:03]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-21#1701493 << he has a point, incidentally. the notion of ~approximating~ numeric machine is about as batshit insane as the notion of concave airplane or open-ended circulatory system.	[02:04]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-21 14:49 asciilifeform: phf: iron floatingpoint Must Die.	[02:04]
mircea_popescu:	wtf is wrong with using an int machine like sane people and doing approximations in software, also like sane people ? "oh but it's non intuitive" "to idiots" "well yes"	[02:04]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-21#1701518 << the implicit point does not prevail with me because i personally ran a revolution from the very comfortable setting of my burgeois setting. you can and in fact the better revolutions go exactly like that.	[02:08]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-21 15:05 phf: to some extent something like that was done in a transition from 36xx to ivory	[02:08]
mircea_popescu:	there's no particular requirement that the person building an ironclad factory does not own the sailship drydock in town. on the fucking contrary the sign of the drydock owner ~being an idiot~ is their not building an ironclad factory right down the shoreline.	[02:09]
mircea_popescu:	your parents being rich and your friendly relations with all the elite of the town and generally your comfortable situation is a fucking baseline, not a high water mark, wtf is this, peaking in highschool like african women ?	[02:10]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-21#1701525 << i have no idea why but this is overpowerly funny.	[02:12]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-21 15:06 phf: pff, russian tech. spec is produced by kiril after sit in room with 2 fpga (such luxury, whole two!) and bread for three months	[02:12]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-21#1701530 << recall the original "fpga" miners, serials shaved items "while supplies lasted" ?	[02:12]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-21 15:16 asciilifeform begins to suspect that these folx simply got a hold of american raw dies and make a killing mounting them in sov-era specced ceramic cases with gold pins, and calling it 'new production'	[02:12]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-21#1701538 << no, the raw die theory is on the mopney.	[02:14]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-21 15:21 asciilifeform: now it is ~possible~ that the spec is disinfo, and in basement of kgb there is a rewritten alteratronic chain. but imho unlikely.	[02:14]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-21#1701546 << when ceausescu died there was a very brief revival "we shall roar" orc thing because ~most of us ops in eastern europe got killed / the rest fled. so there was a bit of pushback, all the way to killing dudes way in chicago. it didn't last, principally because sometime mid 90s the decision was taken (by the russkis) the way forward is economical not operational. so ss went the cia w	[02:17]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-21 15:26 asciilifeform: imho it is strange that the contract on him had to wait until ceaucescu dead	[02:17]
mircea_popescu:	ay, trynna make money for da rent.	[02:17]
mircea_popescu:	easy to condemn this as "a mistake retrospectively", especially if one has nfi what sort of demands an operational approach places on the labour pool.	[02:17]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-21#1701554 << incidentally, has anyone tried to talk to the lattice folk ?	[02:19]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-21 21:18 asciilifeform: !~later tell spyked http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-21#1701446 >> on second thought, you probably could put this chore off, olimex sells a ice40-8k (largest available) with 512k of sram glued on. and this is theoretically enough to prototype . the more pressing matter is ethernet. ( afaik nobody sells an ice40 + ethernetmagnetics . and just as with ddr dram, answer is 'lattice wants you to use their larger fpgas, with THEIR toolchain'	[02:19]
mircea_popescu:	it is ~possible~ they actually don't know what they want / don't want anything specific.	[02:19]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-21#1701573 << heh. welcome home.	[02:20]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-21 21:30 spyked hates xilinx with passion. if only because of the bloated software	[02:20]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-21#1701590 <<< bwahahaha. fucking retards, final phase idiocy.	[02:21]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-21 21:52 asciilifeform: 'USS John S. McCain' didjaknow.	[02:21]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-21#1701598 << 46.166.160.36, 91.218.246.31 also.	[02:23]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-21 22:22 hanbot: say, where's the current list of trb nodes? http://thebitcoin.foundation/trusted-nodes.html << accurate?	[02:23]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-21#1701605 << yeah very much, at least a basic starter list of public nodes. mod6 ?	[02:23]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-21 22:26 hanbot: yeah, ty. i wonder if it wouldn't be wise to update that list monthly as part of reporting etc.	[02:23]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-21#1701617 << or even "but you keep asking me for it!"	[02:25]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-21 22:36 asciilifeform: all of the pattern 'have you seen this tx?' 'no...' 'but i sent it to your node and got an ack'	[02:25]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-21#1701627 << problem is poverty of mind, not of system. "i don't want to look at large hex strings, they intimidatre me". same exact shit-for-brains that gave us pgp "fingerprints".	[02:26]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-21 22:47 ben_vulpes: i struggle to imagine the poverty of system that behavior was intended to be useful on	[02:26]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1701658 << ooobviously. "imperial charity must be defined as opposite of mp definition, we'll omit referncing trilema notwithstanding it is our source"	[02:29]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 01:34 pete_dushenski: "ultimately, the only way that philanthropy is really going to be able to shed its aura of noxious elitism is if the rich give up the reins of control, and allow the poor to make many, many more allocative decisions." << i lolled	[02:29]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1701665 << yeh nice. about a block a minute or so.	[02:29]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 01:42 pete_dushenski: in other nodes, my latest 0-fullheight trb sync experiment was completed in a hair under two weeks. nb i say!	[02:29]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1701674 << this is actually in the logs. in short, badly written "p2p"	[02:30]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 01:43 pete_dushenski: though i'll be damned if i can gather why it is that -connect'ing to 2+ nodes jams up every few hours whereas just 1 node sync beautifully with no issues for days on end.	[02:30]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1701715 << as per ancient alf techs, can just dump the privs later on makes it ok neh :D	[02:39]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 02:14 asciilifeform: disclosing privs to empty addrs proves ownership to whoever finds them.	[02:39]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1701724 \|<< eh relax. i do it all the time.	[02:40]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 02:22 asciilifeform: imho this hypothetical exercise falls under the banner of Do. Not. Share. Privkeyz. With. Anyone. It. Never. Ends. Well.	[02:40]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1701735 << very much this. raid arrays are cheap and easy these days, monodisc systems are a little weird for this reason.	[02:42]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 02:48 asciilifeform: it may prove more economical to run spinning disks with slice raid, vs ssd.	[02:42]
mircea_popescu:	nothing forbids raiding ssds either.	[02:43]
BingoBoingo:	Nothing forbids putting SSDs near a RAIP either	[02:47]
BingoBoingo:	A RAIP being a Revolutionary/Raping Array of Independent Penises	[02:50]
BingoBoingo:	And Qntra stats shows a resurgence of interest in http://qntra.net/2014/11/buterins-waterfall-a-likbez/ this month	[02:51]
ben_vulpes:	http://logs.bvulpes.com/trilema?d=2017-8-19#186295 << yup, sorry for the delay	[03:16]
mircea_popescu:	hey, some sluts worth waiting for!	[03:19]
ben_vulpes:	and how	[03:22]
ben_vulpes:	unrelatedly, quest to eradicate commute from my life appears to be drawing to a close!	[03:23]
ben_vulpes:	comes complete with ~5% tax cut	[03:24]
ben_vulpes:	wired for cat5 even	[03:24]
deedbot:	http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/A922DD117C7DBCEA3AFB8DF5085F0A18C37B6C58FA2BA5D6B2A4D56DF0370AED << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1721...8023 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '58.10.74.183 (ssh-rsa key from 58.10.74.183 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt> ' (cm-58-10-74-183.revip7.asianet.co.th. TH 10)	[03:27]
deedbot:	http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/A922DD117C7DBCEA3AFB8DF5085F0A18C37B6C58FA2BA5D6B2A4D56DF0370AED << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1732...7083 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '58.10.74.183 (ssh-rsa key from 58.10.74.183 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt> ' (cm-58-10-74-183.revip7.asianet.co.th. TH 10)	[03:27]
mircea_popescu:	i suppose "i never commuted" should go on my list of "shit i missed out" huh.	[03:37]
ben_vulpes:	it is a very ordinary hell	[03:44]
mircea_popescu:	http://thetarpit.org/posts/y03/05a-july-theses.html << not bad lulz, huh.	[04:28]
mircea_popescu:	and then /me runs into http://thetarpit.org/posts/y03/05b-https-war-declaration.html and it's like... dawg's been reading trilema has he.	[04:29]
spyked:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1701761 <-- well, but. "won't somebody think of the children!" this goes on and on. it never happens in fact (as the avg gyppo in the slums of bucharest -- or "banlieue", n'est-ce pas? -- can certify), but it happens in speech. hence attempt to regulation that only increases coefficient of friction in sane economic activity.	[05:42]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 05:47 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-21#1701414 << empire is not organised towards "protecting of the proles" or any other statement with the proles as a subject. the proles (understood deductively, as "all people", just as they understand govenment deductively, see prev discussion), as well as the environment generally are the objects, not the subjects of imperial discourse.	[05:42]
spyked:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1701764 <-- yes! valentinbuza was student at "computer security" class. very good return-oriented programmer (among others)	[05:44]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 05:49 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-21#1701432 << ah you two know each other ?	[05:44]
spyked:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1701768 <-- foodforthought. thanks!	[05:45]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 05:51 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-21#1701444 << you can work towards the fuck you please. like say the http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=balanced+ternary or the http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=serial+computer or so on.	[05:45]
spyked:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1701835 <-- was mostly an exercise in translating from communist "wooden tongue" to english newspeak. a lot of similarities there.	[05:49]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 08:28 mircea_popescu: http://thetarpit.org/posts/y03/05a-july-theses.html << not bad lulz, huh.	[05:49]
spyked:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1701836 <-- also, starting point for discussions with certain meatwot people who keep insisting that https "just works", and "why don't you propose an alternative", despite their having tried the alternative in ~1st university year.	[05:57]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 08:29 mircea_popescu: and then /me runs into http://thetarpit.org/posts/y03/05b-https-war-declaration.html and it's like... dawg's been reading trilema has he.	[05:57]
valentinbuza:	spyked, people who are serious about transport security (data in transit) shy away from TLS and they craft their own stripped down version using Noise Protocol Framework (http://noiseprotocol.org/index.html)	[06:17]
shinohai:	http://archive.is/0TOaA "The US Navy orders "Operational pause" as it teaches sailors to actually navigate waters and use GPS, whilst all llitoral combat ships are refitted with pykrete	[06:36]
spyked:	valentinbuza, "Noise is a framework for crypto protocols based on Diffie-Hellman key agreement. Noise can describe protocols that consist of a single message as well as interactive protocols." in what's a tradition here, http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=dh I'll let the more knowledgeable ppl hammer it.	[07:55]
asciilifeform:	dh in the logz is... 'dieharder'	[07:58]
asciilifeform:	as for diffie hellman, it is nsatronic , and this is fairly well known at this point ( whether because timing side channel, primes-which-ain't, and other sabotage of concrete implementations- or more fundamentally broken - is unknown )	[08:01]
asciilifeform:	the other lul in the 'noise protocol' is the use of symmetric ciphers	[08:02]
asciilifeform:	!#s symmetric	[08:02]
a111:	118 results for "symmetric", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=symmetric	[08:02]
asciilifeform:	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-05-31#1474280 << metathread re subj	[08:04]
a111:	Logged on 2016-05-31 19:51 asciilifeform: not a single symmetric cipher other than otp has ever been proven to be worth a sparrow's fart.	[08:04]
asciilifeform:	spyked, valentinbuza ^	[08:05]
asciilifeform:	the 'noise protocol' link is hilarious -- even features the classic leper's bell of nsa committee , the null-cipher	[08:07]
asciilifeform:	'0. No confidentiality. This payload is sent in cleartext.'	[08:07]
asciilifeform:	( implementation becomes an underhanded-C-contest in concealing the fact of ~any~ box running the idiocy reverting to nullcipher on demand )	[08:08]
asciilifeform:	pretty typical usg production	[08:12]
asciilifeform:	massive pile of moving parts, aes, various post-conversion bernsteinisms, null ciphers, 'this is faster on 32-bit cpu so we're using it', let's-give-enemy-raw-bytes-from-prng, and other jokes.	[08:14]
asciilifeform:	on top of all this... betcha the canonical ref implementation is in overflowlang.	[08:16]
asciilifeform:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1701794 << lattice dun make the boards	[08:23]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 06:19 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-21#1701554 << incidentally, has anyone tried to talk to the lattice folk ?	[08:23]
asciilifeform:	but lattice per se is EXACTLY like xilinx, same profit model, closed arch, license 'ip cores'. their larger flagship fpga is exactly like xilinx 'spartan', full of proprietary peripherals, and that's the one that tends to get packaged into devboards with nic etc	[08:25]
asciilifeform:	primarily because just a basic nic controller itself would take up a whole ice40 ( ice is their low-end, barebones cpld series, and was reverses without any cooperation - through kicking and screaming of, even - lattice co )	[08:26]
asciilifeform:	*reversed	[08:27]
asciilifeform:	tldr : a serious sanecomp board would feature a , say, 16 x 16 ~grid~ of ice40-8k.	[08:28]
asciilifeform:	and would cost a btc or so.	[08:28]
asciilifeform:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1701819 << ~actual~ - i.e. ~hardware~ raid -- ain't cheap, even the controller, and mobo with actual slots, for it to sit down in, each cost more than all of zoolag !	[08:31]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 06:42 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1701735 << very much this. raid arrays are cheap and easy these days, monodisc systems are a little weird for this reason.	[08:31]
asciilifeform:	i use it in workstations. but the cost is imho misplaced in a trb node, which are supposed to be a redundancy layer p2pfully in themselves !	[08:33]
asciilifeform:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1701821 << i do this in my flagship wurkstationx -- but it is expensive, 'trim' dun work properly through hardware raid, they burn even faster than in singles.	[08:38]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 06:43 mircea_popescu: nothing forbids raiding ssds either.	[08:38]
asciilifeform:	pro tip : stagger them in age, by 3-4 months, the first time you build a hardware raid5 from ssds	[08:39]
asciilifeform:	say you have 4 holes. use 3 mechanicals + 1 ssd, then few months in, replace a mechanical, then again, year later, whole thing is ssd that will not ever simultaneously burn , in theory.	[08:40]
* asciilifeform	uses this method, worx	[08:40]
asciilifeform:	if you don't do this -- you are very likely to have all N die at once, on same day.	[08:41]
asciilifeform:	trilema still down, btw	[08:51]
deedbot:	http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/FA95E086BED135A67EA6B95E0071AA22CF55152588AB8E540E61F11E802BEE6E << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1723...3427 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '191.32.60.22 (ssh-rsa key from 191.32.60.22 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt> ' (191.32.60.22.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br. BR)	[10:14]
deedbot:	http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/FA95E086BED135A67EA6B95E0071AA22CF55152588AB8E540E61F11E802BEE6E << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1545...8109 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '191.32.60.22 (ssh-rsa key from 191.32.60.22 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt> ' (191.32.60.22.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br. BR)	[10:14]
deedbot:	http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/B929C2CA50C9AC4FECF9C063980D211F1FABDFF7E5FBC47809099014E5E92038 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1689...8337 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '93.90.186.163 (ssh-rsa key from 93.90.186.163 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt> ' (ve1097242242.providerbox.net. DE)	[10:14]
deedbot:	http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/B929C2CA50C9AC4FECF9C063980D211F1FABDFF7E5FBC47809099014E5E92038 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1673...7539 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '93.90.186.163 (ssh-rsa key from 93.90.186.163 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt> ' (ve1097242242.providerbox.net. DE)	[10:14]
mod6:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1701801 << thanks will add these to the list @ http://thebitcoin.foundation/trusted-nodes.html	[10:19]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 06:23 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-21#1701598 << 46.166.160.36, 91.218.246.31 also.	[10:19]
mod6:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1701801 << Sounds like there should be a link to the trusted-nodes page in the HOWTO maybe. Also, a once per-month round-up of me asking for Node-Updates, if there are any.	[10:20]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 06:23 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-21#1701598 << 46.166.160.36, 91.218.246.31 also.	[10:20]
mod6:	I don't think these belong permanently in the SoBA each month. It would be probably a good idea for individuals who own these nodes to sign their Node IP and send that to the btc-dev mailing list. However, I seem to recall some resistance to that.	[10:22]
asciilifeform:	mod6: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-21#1701611	[10:23]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-21 22:31 asciilifeform: i don't much like the phrase 'trusted nodes', when you connect to trb node, you get plaintext tcp, and 0 guarantees re who or what you're actually talking to.	[10:23]
mod6:	I'm open to suggestions for re-name.	[10:23]
asciilifeform:	i dun care so much re the name, but elaborating re the resistance.	[10:24]
mod6:	Alright.	[10:24]
asciilifeform:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1701786 << asic miners. the original 'asics' were actual shaved fpga. the next gen -- were 'hardcopy fpga', the cheapest fab available, where you just get to define metallization layer and naught else	[10:31]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 06:12 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-21#1701530 << recall the original "fpga" miners, serials shaved items "while supplies lasted" ?	[10:31]
asciilifeform:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1701775 << the original bolix emulator was handwritten in asm for dec alpha ( which is why dks sells (sold?) alphas, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=186 ) . the x86-64 port never ~quite~ worked, it was a hasty c rewrite.	[10:32]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 06:03 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-21#1701494 << i always suspected the item will crumble under examination, but then again i'm just a hater.	[10:32]
asciilifeform:	asciilifeform spent ~years~ sawing both apart in ida. until learned that the whisperers have the source, recently even on shithub.	[10:34]
asciilifeform:	when saw that the ~original~ src was a pile of shithacks, lost interest in anything but the electron microscopy path ( like it or not, 1uM process folks were ~forced~ to make compact description )	[10:35]
asciilifeform:	1980s chips were jewels not because of any magic, but because the option of bloat was simply unavailable to hardware designers then.	[10:35]
asciilifeform:	you get 300k transistors and that's that, use'em well.	[10:36]
asciilifeform:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1701766 << context was, emulated bolix crashes, original iron -- never ( short of physical failure )	[10:37]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 05:49 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-21#1701443 << you know my dear asciilifeform , so did unix.	[10:37]
asciilifeform:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1701790 << would be interesting to read moar re this	[10:37]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 06:17 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-21#1701546 << when ceausescu died there was a very brief revival "we shall roar" orc thing because ~most of us ops in eastern europe got killed / the rest fled. so there was a bit of pushback, all the way to killing dudes way in chicago. it didn't last, principally because sometime mid 90s the decision was taken (by the russkis) the way forward is economical not operational. so ss went the cia w	[10:37]
* asciilifeform	finally eaten l0gz	[10:38]
valentinbuza:	https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/mozilla.governance/81gMQeMEL0w << Firefox discussing to anonymously collect browsing data. What browsers are you using?	[11:11]
asciilifeform:	valentinbuza: 'lynx' is, i think, quite popular among the folx here	[11:11]
asciilifeform:	'tests how we can collect additional data in a privacy preserving way' << lol!	[11:14]
valentinbuza:	gave up chrome long time ago for firefox (with noscript + self destructing cookies). now I should start looking for alternatives.	[11:15]
asciilifeform:	all of the graphical wwwtrons are, afaik, ~same.	[11:16]
asciilifeform:	( firefox is the one that has the added 'feature' of eating GBs of ram for no reason )	[11:16]
valentinbuza:	"to improve their experience." leads to "Which top sites are users visiting?" :))	[11:18]
spyked:	yeah. no reason is in fact "web apps" running arbitrary code efficiently on client machines.	[11:21]
asciilifeform:	valentinbuza: didja read today's log ? answr'd re 'noise' etc.	[11:23]
asciilifeform:	valentinbuza: logs live at http://btcbase.org/log , http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/today , http://logs.bvulpes.com/trilema ( 3 separate d00dz, separate boxes )	[11:25]
asciilifeform:	valentinbuza: also recommend to read the mircea_popescu's intro, in the chan greetingline	[11:26]
valentinbuza:	linked noise as a partial response to spyked http://thetarpit.org/posts/y03/05b-https-war-declaration.html. Noise null cipher is an different context than TLS null cipher.	[11:29]
asciilifeform:	how does it matter what context ?	[11:29]
asciilifeform:	nullcipher has no business being an option. period.	[11:29]
asciilifeform:	it exists so that enemy can coax your proggy into switching to it.	[11:30]
valentinbuza:	noise is a framework for creating protocols. you have the option to create NOISE_NULL_CIPHER_TOTAL_BS protocol which is totally different from NOISE_ANOTHER_SANE_CHOICE	[11:31]
asciilifeform:	this does not explain why this is a standardized feature.	[11:31]
asciilifeform:	and why the massive pile of moving parts is necessary.	[11:32]
valentinbuza:	it is different from TLS, where whatever version you are using it has null cipher. The question should be: does someone deployed NOISE_NULL_CIPHER_TOTAL_BS? then you can blame them	[11:32]
asciilifeform:	WHY IS IT IN THE STANDARD	[11:32]
valentinbuza:	don't know. ask Trevor Perrin, maybe he thought of creating all the possible recipes	[11:34]
asciilifeform:	and why is diffie hellman in the standard.	[11:34]
asciilifeform:	diffie hellman is thoroughly ( and likely irreparably ) porous to nsa.	[11:34]
valentinbuza:	also "massive pile of moving parts" << not even close to TLS. as for your other questions i can't really answer.	[11:36]
asciilifeform:	tls is not the standard of comparison.	[11:36]
asciilifeform:	it is a crock of shit.	[11:36]
asciilifeform:	and entirely useless.	[11:37]
asciilifeform:	valentinbuza: behold, for instance, http://shop.nosuchlabs.com << a www store that does not and never will use tls/ssl	[11:38]
asciilifeform:	nobody here uses tls .	[11:38]
trinque:	!#s pki	[11:38]
a111:	84 results for "pki", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=pki	[11:38]
valentinbuza:	agree on the TLS part. As I told before, Noise was a partial response for spyked blog post (TLS sucks, PKI sucks). Noise is just a somewhat better choice for the TLS sucks part	[11:40]
asciilifeform:	mno. it is exactly the same thing, under slightly variant sauce.	[11:40]
valentinbuza:	as you can see on the spec, it is not concerned with PKI or your authentication methods, it's up to you	[11:40]
asciilifeform:	uses same idiot diffiehell, same idiot symmetric ciphers, same morass of moving parts.	[11:40]
valentinbuza:	Ctrl + F : RSA. 1 false positive	[11:42]
spyked:	valentinbuza, my issue is that "framework" approach (as used in today's terminology) is utterly anti-engineering. one can (on the condition that they know what they're doing! and there really is no alternative to that) write own software from first principles without requiring 3rd party. or, use 3rd party only to strip of shit and output sane object (e.g. http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=trb ), which is distinct from "framework".	[11:43]
asciilifeform:	spyked: trb is very long way from 'sane object' but otherwise yes.	[11:43]
asciilifeform:	incidentally all existing systems that do pubkey crypto in real time ( incl. 'noise' ) are trivially breakable by the enemy, because no constant-time numeric stack currently exists publicly.	[11:45]
valentinbuza:	probably the word framework is misunderstood. Let's say you want NOISE_CURVE25519_ETC it does not provide you with curve25519 implementation, you have to create you own. It's just a schematic for protocol patterns, not a framework a la "django"	[11:46]
asciilifeform:	then it is not definitive and ergo entirely useless even at own stated purpose.	[11:46]
asciilifeform:	a 'standard' that consists of 'go and implement whatever you like' is not a standard in any meaningful sense.	[11:47]
asciilifeform:	( and in particular if 'whatever you like' includes diffie hellman and nullcipher )	[11:47]
valentinbuza:	i don't find the word 'standard' in the description or in the spec. it's not a standard and should not be seen as one	[11:48]
asciilifeform:	then what the hell is it ?	[11:48]
valentinbuza:	it's an attempt to make some things better than TLS (or other data in transit protocol) as opposed to other ways of creating software such as "we use TLS because it's standard, we have no clue what to do and just use what everybody is using" and sell it as military grade	[11:52]
asciilifeform:	it is in no way whatsoever better.	[11:53]
asciilifeform:	exactly same set of idiocies, repackaged in 'modern' flavour.	[11:53]
asciilifeform:	valentinbuza: lemme guess, you are the victim of a recent university 'education' ? got quite bit of unlearning to do.	[11:54]
valentinbuza:	probably. but i think that your argument is invalid because you say that "in TLS ingredients suck and recipe sucks" and "in Noise ingredients suck therefore the recipe also sucks"	[11:57]
asciilifeform:	a recipe that explicitly features liquishit -- suxx	[11:57]
asciilifeform:	this is not a debateable point.	[11:57]
spyked:	re schematic for protocol patterns, why not use e.g. petri nets for the model (assuming that works) then just implement from that? why add extra software? ehm. it seems like they're trying to automate some work, but that automation trades off actual understanding, i.e. by introducing (IMHO useless) levels of abstraction.	[11:58]
asciilifeform:	both tls and 'noise' are the products of exactly the same type of broken mind.	[11:58]
asciilifeform:	( generously 'helped' by nsa assets )	[11:59]
valentinbuza:	asciilifeform, two things can suck and one can suck less. But instead of throwing a lot of arguments, why not propose your ingredients and recipes?	[12:04]
valentinbuza:	i saw, OTP is one	[12:04]
spyked:	valentinbuza, to exemplify asciilifeform's point ^ I shall quote from the docs: "A Noise protocol begins with two parties exchanging handshake messages. During this handshake phase the parties exchange DH public keys and perform a sequence of DH operations" <-- this requires me to import a couple of concepts: handshake messages, DH public keys, there may be others along the line. now, given that my crypto brain-memory module is not	[12:04]
spyked:	loaded (because I don't use this day-to-day), I must consult these items in great detail. my guess here is that once I have spent all the time to learn, the "framework" becomes useless, because the mental framework is in place.	[12:04]
asciilifeform:	valentinbuza: i regard the entire concept of 'real time automated public key crypto' as a scam, and anyone claiming to offer such a thing, as a scammer, until constant time rsa routines are public.	[12:05]
spyked:	on the other hand, if I take these items for granted, joke's on me, which is exactly what "modern engineering" philosophy relies on.	[12:05]
asciilifeform:	spyked nails it.	[12:06]
asciilifeform:	the 'framework' is a null, a donut without a hole.	[12:06]
asciilifeform:	or rather, hole without donut.	[12:06]
asciilifeform:	the ~actual~ purpose of the attempted 'frameworks' is to drill into your skull and install the idea that nullcipher, diffiehellman, aes, are acceptable things to exist in this world, and can be pushed as 'cryptography'	[12:07]
asciilifeform:	whereas they serve the exact opposite purpose.	[12:07]
asciilifeform:	the second purpose of tls, 'noise', and every other 'protocol' published, is to install in your head the idea that it is acceptable for a cryptosystem to consist of 50kLines of c.	[12:08]
asciilifeform:	( or greater still )	[12:08]
asciilifeform:	and to not be readable+fullygraspable by one man in a few hours.	[12:09]
valentinbuza:	'time to learn, the "framework" becomes useless, because the mental framework is in place.' << my guess is not, but I don't think we have a conclusion on this with a sample of 2 points	[12:09]
asciilifeform:	valentinbuza: the 'frameworks' are the fruits of poison tree	[12:10]
asciilifeform:	valentinbuza: do you know what lustration is ?	[12:11]
spyked:	valentinbuza, maybe not, but then if you have everything loaded in head, the most you can do is rip the useless parts apart and leave only what fits into the problem at hand. which turns "framework" into "item that solves particular problem". it is essential to not leave anything else there.	[12:13]
shinohai:	This is why we have asciilifeform 's "fits in head" (tm) (r) (tmsr)	[12:14]
spyked:	think about it, the problem of e.g. C software is that unsanitized inputs let users do whatever they like with it, i.e. arbitrary computetion. which goes way beyond program specification.	[12:15]
spyked:	*computation	[12:15]
asciilifeform:	spyked: more fundamentally, it is ~impossible to write a nontrivial c proggy without pointer arithmetic, and it is ~impossible to meaningfully prove the correctness of a nontrivial program involving pointer arithmetic.	[12:17]
spyked:	also, http://wiki.c2.com/?GreenspunsTenthRuleOfProgramming somewhat relevant. the more your program claims to do, the more of a chance it's gonna be used for unintended purposes.	[12:18]
asciilifeform:	spyked: ~any~ unanticipated behaviour of your program, is proof that it did ~not~ fit in your (the author's!) head	[12:19]
spyked:	yes, and C is I think it's a good example to illustrate the larger issue. it's a snowball thing, in the sense that it's sometimes enough to have 1 hole to break everything. incidentally most recent popularized vulns (not necessarily in C) fit there.	[12:22]
spyked:	shellshock: "let's call this general-purpose function that executes programs in a shell".	[12:23]
asciilifeform:	1 hole is -- definitionally -- enough-to-break-everything	[12:23]
mod6:	hai	[12:33]
asciilifeform:	ohai mircea_popescu	[12:33]
mircea_popescu:	hola!	[12:33]
asciilifeform:	yer www is still dead	[12:33]
mircea_popescu:	i know i know.	[12:33]
mircea_popescu:	fiat isps.	[12:34]
asciilifeform:	colibri climbed into exhaust pipe ?	[12:34]
asciilifeform:	lolk	[12:34]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1701847 << in this case, they actually work on gossipd. you seen that ? sina/peterl made mockups.	[12:35]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 10:17 valentinbuza: spyked, people who are serious about transport security (data in transit) shy away from TLS and they craft their own stripped down version using Noise Protocol Framework (http://noiseprotocol.org/index.html)	[12:35]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1701848 << "the us navy" "inexplicably" forgets to correctly state "as mp has long pointed out on trilema, we are not actually either battle capable or operationally ready just like the rest of the usg."	[12:36]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 10:36 shinohai: http://archive.is/0TOaA "The US Navy orders "Operational pause" as it teaches sailors to actually navigate waters and use GPS, whilst all llitoral combat ships are refitted with pykrete	[12:36]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1701860 << heh.	[12:37]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 12:08 asciilifeform: ( implementation becomes an underhanded-C-contest in concealing the fact of ~any~ box running the idiocy reverting to nullcipher on demand )	[12:37]
shinohai:	And I thank thee, mircea_popescu , fpr reminding me that the US Navy + Pykrete = eterenal meme	[12:37]
asciilifeform:	shinohai: gotta nitpick, pykrete was (rejected by) british navy. ( back when there was a british navy )	[12:37]
mircea_popescu:	it's the sawdust that keeps on giving!	[12:37]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform and your point is ?	[12:37]
shinohai:	^	[12:38]
mircea_popescu:	wait, is it because india names its ships NSS Blabla sopmething we're supposed to believe "that's just what's done" ? rather than "oh look, orc HMS!!!" ?	[12:38]
asciilifeform:	it's like putting napoleon in a tricorn.	[12:38]
asciilifeform:	but yes.	[12:38]
mircea_popescu:	there is no substantial difference between us and british navy just like there's no substantial difference between us and nazy atomic program.	[12:39]
mircea_popescu:	the former is just where the later ran to.	[12:39]
asciilifeform:	well today there ain't any british at all, only 'airstrip one'	[12:39]
shinohai:	If I paint `TMSR` in gold lettering on my bathtub boats, am I now admiral of Navy?	[12:39]
mircea_popescu:	right.	[12:39]
asciilifeform:	shinohai: no, but if you paint it on bathtub!11	[12:40]
shinohai:	S.S.M.P	[12:40]
asciilifeform:	'... and if the tub had been stronger, my song would have been longer'	[12:41]
mircea_popescu:	lol	[12:41]
mircea_popescu:	we should get ice-cube trays with various TMSR ship names on the inside.	[12:41]
mircea_popescu:	have littoral combat icecubes at parties.	[12:41]
mircea_popescu:	"while ship lasts"	[12:41]
shinohai:	Raised lettering, so it is imprinted on ice as it solidifies	[12:42]
mircea_popescu:	exactly.	[12:42]
asciilifeform:	clitoral combat ship	[12:42]
shinohai:	kek	[12:42]
mircea_popescu:	no that's different.	[12:42]
mircea_popescu:	clitoral combat ship = wartenberg wheel	[12:43]
shinohai:	Our Navy is so much more vast and complicated	[12:43]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1701866 << nevermind still should talk to them.	[12:44]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 12:25 asciilifeform: but lattice per se is EXACTLY like xilinx, same profit model, closed arch, license 'ip cores'. their larger flagship fpga is exactly like xilinx 'spartan', full of proprietary peripherals, and that's the one that tends to get packaged into devboards with nic etc	[12:44]
* shinohai	is prod to assert that he knows a woman irl skilled in the handling of wartenberg wheel	[12:44]
shinohai:	*proud	[12:45]
mircea_popescu:	is she a neurosurgeon's nurse ?	[12:45]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: if you'd like to pen a 'can haz the pill against your $B 'intellektual property' racket for phreee? ' letter to lattice, go ahead. i did xilinx.	[12:45]
asciilifeform:	( the answer, quite unsurprisingly, never came )	[12:46]
mircea_popescu:	not a matter of that. a matter of, hey, we're actually significantly smarter than you, come hang out, who knows, maybe you gain something.	[12:46]
asciilifeform:	after that let's write to obummer and ask for the aes pill.	[12:46]
mircea_popescu:	that's the fucking position, wtf do i want FROM a bunch of fiat rottinculo.	[12:46]
asciilifeform:	dunno, unconditional capitulation?	[12:46]
asciilifeform:	what does one ever want from'em	[12:47]
mircea_popescu:	i don't specifically care. it's a simple "come see whether you are good enough to seep people into your company or lose all your brain power to our better model".	[12:47]
asciilifeform:	i suspect these and other derps know what the answer is. ergo still sitting in bunker, taking in the wagner an' cyanide.	[12:48]
mircea_popescu:	it's important to find out, after all most fiat unis/tech corps/whatever actually to this day harbor the managerial delusion that they can in fact compete with the republic on a flesh basis.	[12:48]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform in my experience they've no clue.	[12:48]
asciilifeform:	they dun have ~with what~ to have clue.	[12:48]
mircea_popescu:	right. that reverts to the null cipher.	[12:49]
asciilifeform:	amoeba dun have with what.	[12:49]
mircea_popescu:	!~ticker --market all	[12:49]
asciilifeform:	goxlag!111	[12:49]
mircea_popescu:	heh	[12:49]
jhvh1:	mircea_popescu: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 3960.0, vol: 20588.27113964 \| Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 3960.0, vol: 53677.78176461 \| BTCChina BTCUSD last: 4037.538399, vol: 22536.54470000 \| Kraken BTCUSD last: 3984.0, vol: 9236.13133613 \| Volume-weighted last average: 3978.56976943	[12:49]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1701877 << not such a good idea to mix different types.	[12:50]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 12:40 asciilifeform: say you have 4 holes. use 3 mechanicals + 1 ssd, then few months in, replace a mechanical, then again, year later, whole thing is ssd that will not ever simultaneously burn , in theory.	[12:50]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: what can i say, it worked great, for the year+	[12:50]
asciilifeform:	naturally runs at speed of slowest disk.	[12:50]
asciilifeform:	( in raid5 )	[12:51]
mircea_popescu:	but yes, the principle is correct : make raid out of same items, then a few months in change one. though it doesn't need to be changed. then use THAT in the next raid you build.	[12:51]
mircea_popescu:	so they're not all same age.	[12:51]
asciilifeform:	aha	[12:51]
mircea_popescu:	as age is a great predictor of ssd failure and the shits are perfectly capable of dying same week.	[12:51]
mircea_popescu:	(raid reconstruct is io intensive, could push over the edge the redundancy, dying disk)	[12:52]
asciilifeform:	not merely predictor -- it gets finite writes in each block, after that -- it's a rom	[12:52]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform yeah, which aspect makes them slightly better than spinsters, which actually become unreadable.	[12:52]
asciilifeform:	cheap ( 'sandisk' and a few others ) actually become unreadable, the controller decides to shit itself when it can't find writable blocks	[12:53]
asciilifeform:	now try this idea on for size : picture a 'btcfs' that knows how to use a dead ssd	[12:53]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1701887 << actually ima put the link in topic. standby.	[12:53]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 14:20 mod6: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1701801 << Sounds like there should be a link to the trusted-nodes page in the HOWTO maybe. Also, a once per-month round-up of me asking for Node-Updates, if there are any.	[12:53]
asciilifeform:	( old blox ain't ever gonna change )	[12:53]
mircea_popescu:	not a bad idea at all was going to come up when we were finally making the tmsr hdd controllers. but even early dun hurt anything.	[12:54]
mircea_popescu:	hmm, not putting it in topic, putting it in http://trilema.com/2016/how-to-participate-in-the-affairs-of-the-most-serene-republic/ once i get that thing online again.	[12:54]
asciilifeform:	( if making own 'disks' -- use otp roms for blockchain. as discussed in old thread. now if only somebody still made otp roms !! )	[12:55]
asciilifeform:	point remains, it is the Wrong Thing to use flippable registers to store bits that ain't EVER supposed to flip.	[12:55]
mircea_popescu:	sure.	[12:56]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1701900 << ehehe ain't that the truth.	[12:56]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 14:35 asciilifeform: when saw that the ~original~ src was a pile of shithacks, lost interest in anything but the electron microscopy path ( like it or not, 1uM process folks were ~forced~ to make compact description )	[12:56]
mircea_popescu:	switch over my shoulder grinning and bobbing her head. "yeah, what men need to perform is constriction."	[12:57]
mircea_popescu:	she's a slavegirl here otherwise luvs torturing bois in her free time.	[12:57]
asciilifeform:	outpatient, presumably?	[12:57]
mircea_popescu:	nobody's chained to the place!	[12:57]
mircea_popescu:	well, the noobies, but briefly.	[12:57]
mircea_popescu:	the point is not without merit, though. ~all the competent, at artisan level, males, the dudes working leather and metal and wood and whatnot ~competently~ are virtually all 50 yo doods with very much a slave mentality.	[12:59]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1701905 << the skinning of the cat costs in excess of the pelt. suffice it to say that there's a reason all 80s "Spy films" are about how "there's a list of EVERY AGENT and the soviets MIGHT get it" bla bla dramas.	[13:01]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 14:37 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1701790 << would be interesting to read moar re this	[13:01]
asciilifeform:	sorta the main diff b/w 'terrorist' cells org, and usg-style org, neh. the latter in fact has a 'crown jewels list-of-every' somewhere in it.	[13:01]
mircea_popescu:	amusingly enough, the fear of one generation became the reality of the next. funny how it never worked that way re nuke but did work that way re craft.	[13:02]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform the actual reason, i am persuaded, is that the formerly VERY competitive, fragmented talent finally pooled starting mid 1989 and ending six months later.	[13:03]
mircea_popescu:	it was a case of "the inept management died, and the bright kids republiced in their absence". blasted through everything.	[13:03]
asciilifeform:	as in late '90s ru	[13:03]
mircea_popescu:	but romania ended up with a competent secret service mostly through infiltrating kgb, not through competition with the deeply inept burgeoises.	[13:03]
mircea_popescu:	it was decent and no more back when the principal target was the german kingdom. same exact evolution in tito's aglutination, actually.	[13:04]
* asciilifeform	recalls the siguranța agent in ye olde #ba	[13:04]
mircea_popescu:	that was more the internal protection thing.	[13:05]
mircea_popescu:	sorta homeland security item	[13:05]
mircea_popescu:	!#s moruzov	[13:06]
a111:	1 result for "moruzov", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=moruzov	[13:06]
mircea_popescu:	hm.	[13:06]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform would prolly enjoy guy's bio	[13:07]
mircea_popescu:	zaporoj dood.	[13:07]
asciilifeform:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1702083 << this is entirely true : carpenter is not free to ~negotiate with the task~, only with the wood. now for engineer, you also need a built-in ~master~ in yer head, aka ' царь в голове '. but at no point does unconstrained amoeba brain become a craftsman or engineer.	[13:07]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 16:59 mircea_popescu: the point is not without merit, though. ~all the competent, at artisan level, males, the dudes working leather and metal and wood and whatnot ~competently~ are virtually all 50 yo doods with very much a slave mentality.	[13:07]
asciilifeform:	or soldier, or general, or anything else.	[13:07]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: 'the romanian canaris' lol	[13:08]
mircea_popescu:	quite.	[13:08]
mircea_popescu:	dude was fascinating though. completely inept linguistically, entirely uncultivated (no highschool degree). undeterred.	[13:09]
mircea_popescu:	he'd go consult with mp with a list of questions, and MEMORIZE the fucking answers.	[13:09]
mircea_popescu:	one of the rare cases where sheer discipline carried the day.	[13:09]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1701911 << lynx / links etc. seriously.	[13:15]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 15:15 valentinbuza: gave up chrome long time ago for firefox (with noscript + self destructing cookies). now I should start looking for alternatives.	[13:15]
mircea_popescu:	it may seem offputting at first, "where's my rounded corners" reaction. then if you stick with it for a few weeks you might discover the IMMENSE productivity gains of text-only.	[13:16]
mircea_popescu:	1. because every fucking half second a page takes to load has an immense cost, in that you SWITCH. very much a case of http://archive.is/wkeMJ#selection-209.572-209.641	[13:18]
mod6:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1702072 << ok awesome! will do a regular round-up to make sure it stays up-to-date.	[13:19]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 16:54 mircea_popescu: hmm, not putting it in topic, putting it in http://trilema.com/2016/how-to-participate-in-the-affairs-of-the-most-serene-republic/ once i get that thing online again.	[13:19]
mircea_popescu:	2. eye trying to orient in the "user friendly" graphical bloat is an incomprehensibly huge wastage of bioresources.	[13:19]
mircea_popescu:	and finally of course there's the important 3. pages that fail to work through this process are very rarely worth reading, you basically gain an entry filter more valuable than readily intuited.	[13:20]
mircea_popescu:	all these together add up to triple digit productivity gains.	[13:20]
mircea_popescu:	man who uses computer to do work never fails to discover this. the only thing is that most children start their intellectual life using computers for entertainment (which is entirely natural) and the transition happens naturally only if child is exposed to environment that permits manhood.	[13:21]
mircea_popescu:	otherwise, stays child / vaguely transitions into cvasi-girl over time.	[13:22]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1701913 <<< it's not just that. firefox rendering engine has been forever broken, since version 5 or so. i dunno what version they're at by now, 60 or 160 or w/e, but they never actyually got the manpower together to fix the problem. which problem is -- not memory stable!!! most gfx pages will eat up firefox memory at linear rate over time. which means that the browser will always crash, no m	[13:24]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 15:16 asciilifeform: ( firefox is the one that has the added 'feature' of eating GBs of ram for no reason )	[13:24]
mircea_popescu:	atter what, eventually.	[13:24]
mircea_popescu:	can't keep pages open.	[13:25]
asciilifeform:	aha	[13:25]
asciilifeform:	i can't fathom how anybody uses it	[13:25]
asciilifeform:	must be for the 'i'ma boot up my aol station, check aol, and switch off 10 min later' people.	[13:25]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1701914 << lolz, "how about we put an alexa toolbar into the very browser ?!?!?! got knows we meanwhile managed to import all the other spamshits from the 90s!". https://verkoren.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/and-the-award-for-most-spam-toolbars-installed-in-your-ie-browser-goes-to.jpg	[13:26]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 15:18 valentinbuza: "to improve their experience." leads to "Which top sites are users visiting?" :))	[13:26]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: unfortunately the 'mega productivity boost' dun work for maths. asciilifeform goes through many kg of laser print paper each mo.	[13:26]
mircea_popescu:	that's because math is not principally i/o	[13:27]
asciilifeform:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-17#1699732 << unfortunately sometimes -- is.	[13:27]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-17 20:30 asciilifeform: but in very other olds, apparently in an obscure article in '09 bernstein shows how to eliminate one of the middle-term additions of karatsuba .	[13:27]
asciilifeform:	!!up r0nin-	[13:37]
deedbot:	r0nin- voiced for 30 minutes.	[13:37]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1701918 << actually, either of you two could make a logotron. it's a fine learning exercise. make it in lisp make it in v use whatever you're trying to learn.	[13:37]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 15:26 asciilifeform: valentinbuza: also recommend to read the mircea_popescu's intro, in the chan greetingline	[13:37]
r0nin-:	howdy mircea	[13:37]
mircea_popescu:	kinda the purpose of this.	[13:37]
mircea_popescu:	r0nin- don't tell me you got fresh reading recommendations ?	[13:38]
r0nin-:	ive got tailoring recommendations this time	[13:38]
mircea_popescu:	o.O	[13:38]
mod6:	:D	[13:38]
r0nin-:	whats a decent suit go for there anyway in argentina?	[13:39]
mircea_popescu:	the one i picked up when ben_vulpes was visiting set me back 10k.	[13:39]
r0nin-:	pesos or dollars	[13:39]
mircea_popescu:	pesos. bout 600 bux.	[13:40]
r0nin-:	full bespoke	[13:40]
mircea_popescu:	yes. main street shop, down by	[13:40]
mircea_popescu:	hm dude how quicly one forgets. wtf was it, cabildo cartago lessee	[13:40]
r0nin-:	how they doing that? fabric is like $100 a meter	[13:40]
mircea_popescu:	i paid for the fabric when i ordered it.	[13:41]
r0nin-:	so 600 + fabric	[13:41]
mircea_popescu:	r0nin- cordoba, if memory serves 800 or so.	[13:41]
r0nin-:	pretty cheap	[13:42]
mircea_popescu:	r0nin- not terrible. old jew, knows his trade. anyway fabric varies wildly, this was a light linen thing. they'll make it out of anything, including bring-your-own	[13:42]
r0nin-:	well its a very good price compared to europe	[13:42]
mircea_popescu:	but yes, tailoring tourism fits well with argentina. land, go straight to tailor, have measures taken, go to exedra or w/e pick up a coupla hookers, come back a week later pick up your half dozen suits and jump into plane.	[13:43]
mircea_popescu:	4-5k for the tickets + 4-5k for the hotel + 4-5k for the whores + 4.5k for the suits = 20k and you've a bunch of stories to tell.	[13:43]
r0nin-:	Rome 3k euro for anyone that knows what they are doing	[13:43]
mircea_popescu:	i know plenty of people spending a lot more for a week's vacation and getting a whole lot less.	[13:44]
r0nin-:	linen is a 1 wear though before it needs a press from the wrinkles	[13:45]
mircea_popescu:	oh, yeah, that suit's dead by now. but it served well in the heat.	[13:45]
mod6:	I should have gotten a few.	[13:46]
asciilifeform:	northkr could make a tourist killing, offer tailored vinylon suits	[13:46]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform shocking how many buyers tolerate the synthetics these days.	[13:47]
r0nin-:	lol	[13:47]
mod6:	Damn heat + humidity up here is starting to get annoying everyday.	[13:47]
asciilifeform:	vinylon is the good synthetic	[13:47]
asciilifeform:	dun burn, dun melt, dirt won't stick	[13:47]
r0nin-:	whats vinylon	[13:47]
mircea_popescu:	anyway, rome is not really on the map for the sartorial gentleman. and the only thing that puts italy on the map is marcha, go pick a few pairs of shoes.	[13:47]
r0nin-:	Rome is on the map becuase of caraceni	[13:47]
asciilifeform:	r0nin-: 1930s japanese patent.	[13:48]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: iirc gorbachev got his in rome	[13:48]
asciilifeform:	( suits )	[13:48]
mircea_popescu:	r0nin- i guess. anyone's entitled to his own favoritas.	[13:48]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform yes, in the 70s. it ain't the 70s anymore.	[13:48]
mircea_popescu:	tell you what though : in the 70s everyone was getting his hjookers in italy, from visconti to the swiss.	[13:48]
r0nin-:	italian tailors are all dieing off	[13:48]
mircea_popescu:	back then the italians knew hunger.	[13:48]
r0nin-:	new gen doesnt want to apprentice	[13:49]
mircea_popescu:	or to anything, really. they'll reddit, that's about it.	[13:49]
mircea_popescu:	and why should they! human rights! living wage! no rape!	[13:49]
r0nin-:	www.tommyegiuliocaraceni.com/	[13:49]
r0nin-:	rome is worth it for them alone	[13:49]
mircea_popescu:	nobody goes "oh fuck, unemployment among < 25 yos is 50% ? hahaha! pick up all kids, beat them for a week solid, then see."	[13:50]
mircea_popescu:	tell them, too. it's either unemploymenty under 2% or beatings for a week straight each month.	[13:50]
mircea_popescu:	wtf is this "We'll solve the problems for them". no, bitch. we think the unemployment among X group is too high, that group gets beaten until it fixes it!	[13:50]
ben_vulpes:	wasn't that the premise of 'austerity'?	[13:51]
ben_vulpes:	greek thing, i guess.	[13:51]
r0nin-:	austerity was to remove all $ from economy to protect bondholders	[13:51]
r0nin-:	drive wages to as close to zero as possible	[13:52]
mircea_popescu:	ben_vulpes ayup, exactly./	[13:52]
mircea_popescu:	r0nin- ayup. and it is the correct move if you'ere not willing to actually beat the fuckers.	[13:52]
mircea_popescu:	but i very much recommend actual, physical, public-pillory beatings.	[13:52]
r0nin-:	government created trillions in new fiat to bail out financial sector and then they told everyone they have to accept 90% wage reductions	[13:53]
r0nin-:	mircea: why should everyone be impoverished so a few misers can stare at their shitty bonds?	[13:54]
mircea_popescu:	because everyone fucked up.	[13:54]
r0nin-:	how	[13:54]
mircea_popescu:	i don't care how. this isn't explainy hour. the cooperation of the fucker-upper is neither sought nor required.	[13:54]
mircea_popescu:	let them fucking figure out how. i just give out the signal if.	[13:55]
r0nin-:	the fucker upper was the bondholder	[13:55]
mircea_popescu:	the signal how is their fucking problem.	[13:55]
mircea_popescu:	r0nin- absolutely not. money didn't fail.	[13:55]
mircea_popescu:	labour failed.	[13:55]
r0nin-:	yes compound interest once again overwhelmhed the economies ability to keep up	[13:55]
mircea_popescu:	capital failing situation is eg, enemy bombardment. then capital fails, then you protect labour.	[13:55]
shinohai:	Oh mircea_popescu , you forgot to tell me that (x) altcoin was going TO TEH MOON	[13:56]
r0nin-:	no economic engine in history can keep up with compounding interest	[13:56]
mircea_popescu:	i did ?!	[13:56]
mircea_popescu:	r0nin- veneta kept up for a millenium. no SOCIALIST system in history can keep up with its socialism, which is why roman empire and usian empire both crapped.	[13:56]
mircea_popescu:	and all empires in between.	[13:56]
r0nin-:	roman empire collapsed becuase of usury	[13:56]
mircea_popescu:	but commercial republic is undefeatable.	[13:56]
r0nin-:	soldiers lost all their farms due to compounding	[13:57]
mircea_popescu:	r0nin- roman empire collapsed because of welfare.	[13:57]
mircea_popescu:	mno.	[13:57]
r0nin-:	more and more wealth concentrated into latifundas	[13:57]
mircea_popescu:	that was a defensive, not an agressive play.	[13:57]
r0nin-:	youve got it the opposite, overtime compounding outstrips the economies ability to generate surplus	[13:57]
mircea_popescu:	wealth concentrated in latifundias to protect itself from the inept mismanagement of soldiers who had become welfare cases over a century since marian's obamacare.	[13:57]
mircea_popescu:	no, i've got the facts and you've got teh mantras.	[13:58]
r0nin-:	the soldiers werent around they were out battling	[13:58]
mircea_popescu:	lol right.	[13:58]
r0nin-:	their farms got posted as collateral for high interest rates	[13:58]
mircea_popescu:	nonsense. after 20-25 years of battling, soldier got money and land.	[13:58]
mircea_popescu:	early soldier cultivated it and built a civilisation. late soldier attempted to live above his means to justify socially his internal ineptitude.	[13:58]
r0nin-:	how do you live beyond your means? all consumption is a result of present production	[13:59]
mircea_popescu:	much exactly like the history of the us, except stretched over 3x the time.	[13:59]
mircea_popescu:	by eating the capital.	[13:59]
mircea_popescu:	!#s burn sofa	[13:59]
a111:	3 results for "burn sofa", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=burn%20sofa	[13:59]
r0nin-:	what happened was all the $ went into so few hands you had deflation everywhere	[13:59]
r0nin-:	becuase a rich miser is hoarding	[13:59]
mircea_popescu:	psssh.	[13:59]
r0nin-:	deflation kills off consumption so you get a situation where theres literally no market to sell your produce in	[14:00]
mircea_popescu:	understand something : a new chicken is born on a farm. this chicken grows into either capital good or else consumption. THE SAME chicken.	[14:00]
r0nin-:	while interest payments keep growing	[14:00]
r0nin-:	yes	[14:00]
mircea_popescu:	they started eating their chickens. living above means.	[14:00]
mircea_popescu:	that's what it is.	[14:00]
r0nin-:	interest continues no matter the productive capacity of the farm	[14:00]
mircea_popescu:	and the undersranding of this being what it is, is universal. flaubert has piece explaining how dr bovary sucked at farming because he ate his farm.	[14:01]
mircea_popescu:	that's 1800s. throughout, everywhere, including the self-same romans understand this.	[14:01]
r0nin-:	they didnt eat their farms	[14:01]
r0nin-:	they lost them all	[14:01]
r0nin-:	became serfs	[14:01]
mircea_popescu:	which is why they had the office of the censor, and which is why it was illegal for the womenz to wear expensive textiles, and so on.	[14:01]
mircea_popescu:	no, they ate their farms. exactly as how 1600s frenchmen ate their farms, became "french republic" because too poor to continue kingdom.	[14:01]
r0nin-:	if you have 100% private debt to gdp, and 3% interest, even if you economy expands at 3% all the gains go to interest	[14:01]
r0nin-:	thats what europe and US is at now	[14:02]
mircea_popescu:	living above means -> economic failure -> ra ra socialism -> guillotine. that's how the engine works.	[14:02]
r0nin-:	thats wrong	[14:02]
mircea_popescu:	then guillotine brings in a new normal in terms of social proofs, which allows the cycle to start over.	[14:02]
r0nin-:	all output was taken by rentiers	[14:02]
mircea_popescu:	in a dozen or so cycles, france goes from main country in the world to footnote in geographical area.	[14:02]
r0nin-:	what farm can expand at 10% every year?	[14:02]
trinque:	god if only the rentiers would give back our precious appstore wealth	[14:02]
mircea_popescu:	happened to rome, happened to paris, happened to london.	[14:02]
r0nin-:	every single one of those examples is riddled with usury	[14:03]
* mircea_popescu	shrugs.	[14:03]
r0nin-:	its basic mathematics here	[14:03]
r0nin-:	rome had interest rates from 7-20%, made it impossible for farms to keep increasing output	[14:03]
mircea_popescu:	your usury thing is not unlike linking organized crime with belt buckles. because belt buckles present at all shootings! and made of tin-copper alloy!	[14:03]
mircea_popescu:	alien nonsense.	[14:03]
asciilifeform:	r0nin-: 'rome had..' how ? martians landed , imposed ?	[14:04]
mircea_popescu:	r0nin- farm doesn't HAVE to increase output. if the sconto rate is too high, i will simply sell an extra egg and invest.	[14:04]
mircea_popescu:	and keep doing this until the economy is too flush with savings to keep the rates high.	[14:04]
r0nin-:	no your egg sale goes to interest payments	[14:04]
mircea_popescu:	i do not owe anyone anything.	[14:04]
mircea_popescu:	im a man not a fucktard.	[14:04]
mircea_popescu:	and if the rates are high, i increase savings and push the rates down.	[14:05]
asciilifeform:	betcha r0nin- thinks usa has a 'mortgage crisis', not a fucktard crisis, even	[14:05]
r0nin-:	no you dont lol	[14:05]
mircea_popescu:	hurr.	[14:05]
r0nin-:	interest rates are not a function of savings	[14:05]
mircea_popescu:	because why, because i gotta spend money i don't have on suits i can't afford to impress r0nin- ?	[14:05]
r0nin-:	how many times does that myth have to be told	[14:05]
mircea_popescu:	i don't need to impress him.	[14:05]
asciilifeform:	r0nin-: if you don't borrow, your interest rate is 0	[14:05]
mircea_popescu:	again, because man, and because don't owe anyone anything.	[14:05]
asciilifeform:	r0nin-: in rome today, or in rome 100ad	[14:05]
r0nin-:	theres no such thing as an economy without credit	[14:06]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform no but in the country where "everyone agreed" not to save, then savings depressing rate is a myth. much like in class where "the class community" has agreed not to do any homework, the punishment for missing homework is a myth.	[14:06]
mircea_popescu:	they agree among themselves, and they matter!	[14:06]
r0nin-:	you are confusing nominal financial savings with real savings	[14:07]
mircea_popescu:	hurr.	[14:07]
r0nin-:	a productive farm is a real saving	[14:07]
mircea_popescu:	you pay interest on nominal debt not on real debt.	[14:07]
r0nin-:	financial savings are abstract	[14:07]
r0nin-:	yes	[14:07]
mircea_popescu:	whole fucking principle of interest is based on nominalism.	[14:07]
r0nin-:	rome was a usury economy	[14:07]
mircea_popescu:	and IT EXISTS so as to bring the names in coupling with reality.	[14:07]
r0nin-:	interest is not a natural occuring element	[14:07]
mircea_popescu:	that's why socialists hate interest so much : because it is the prick that deflates the nominalist balloons into the reality shapes subiacent.	[14:08]
asciilifeform:	!!up r0nin-	[14:08]
deedbot:	r0nin- voiced for 30 minutes.	[14:08]
mircea_popescu:	forces the tethering of words to means.	[14:08]
r0nin-:	socialists dont hate interest	[14:08]
asciilifeform:	i wanna hear how 'natural' is to borrow from others for phree	[14:08]
mircea_popescu:	r0nin- not all of them speak of it all hate it like you do.	[14:08]
r0nin-:	socialism comes about as a reaction to deflation brought about by compounding	[14:08]
r0nin-:	its the pus that forms when the body politic is sick of capitalism	[14:08]
mircea_popescu:	mno. socialism comes about as the young failure discovers other kids can in fact morph into adults.	[14:09]
mircea_popescu:	it's simple statement of envy.	[14:09]
r0nin-:	as i said mircea its simple math.	[14:09]
r0nin-:	no economy can keep up with the power of compounding	[14:09]
mircea_popescu:	socialism is 100% a 12yo girl noticing the other girl has tits and she doesn't. that's where socialism is born, in the 7th grade class.	[14:09]
r0nin-:	government came in and created trillions of fiat to bail out bondholders	[14:09]
r0nin-:	and told the rest of the economy they have to massively shrink and somehow still pay	[14:09]
mircea_popescu:	summer ends, girls come back to school, some with tits. the ones without -- discover socialism. that first week in september.	[14:09]
r0nin-:	mircea: do you understand spending = income?	[14:10]
mircea_popescu:	mno.	[14:10]
r0nin-:	there is no savings without spending.	[14:10]
mircea_popescu:	hurr.	[14:10]
r0nin-:	if you reduce spending you reduce income	[14:10]
r0nin-:	contracting output and increasing debt ratios	[14:10]
mircea_popescu:	if you reduce spending you reduce REAL consumption and NOMINAL income	[14:11]
r0nin-:	yes	[14:11]
r0nin-:	meaning business shuts doors.	[14:11]
mircea_popescu:	that's the fucking problem. the bezzle rate = difference between real and nominal growth.	[14:11]
mircea_popescu:	reduction in spending slows down the growth of the bezzle.	[14:11]
r0nin-:	interest rates are a abstract they can be whatever	[14:11]
r0nin-:	the natural rate of interest in any economy is zero.	[14:11]
mircea_popescu:	not in any economy. only in the cemetery economy.	[14:11]
mircea_popescu:	when everyone's dead, inflation rate is zero.	[14:11]
r0nin-:	becuase as i said if you take 2 100 bills and put them in a shelf they dont produce children.	[14:12]
mircea_popescu:	the nominal money has nothing to do with this.	[14:12]
r0nin-:	inflation = compound interest.	[14:12]
r0nin-:	all economies with high inflation have high interest rates	[14:12]
mircea_popescu:	meh he's back into stupid mode.	[14:12]
mircea_popescu:	!!down r0nin-	[14:12]
mircea_popescu:	this place is for reading AND FOR CHANGING YOURSELF.	[14:12]
mircea_popescu:	this place dun change to accomodate you.	[14:12]
asciilifeform:	naggum's 'cdrom brains'	[14:13]
mircea_popescu:	wtf is with this nonsensical "now i will repeat debunked nonsense insistently!" mode.	[14:13]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1701923 << dja see the problem with this ?	[14:14]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 15:31 valentinbuza: noise is a framework for creating protocols. you have the option to create NOISE_NULL_CIPHER_TOTAL_BS protocol which is totally different from NOISE_ANOTHER_SANE_CHOICE	[14:14]
mircea_popescu:	consider fucking for a moment.	[14:14]
mircea_popescu:	some kids who couldn't get laid got together and created... a framework for... other people getting laid.	[14:14]
mircea_popescu:	this sound familiar ? and if familiar, does it still make sense ?	[14:14]
mircea_popescu:	(no, i don't just mean reddit pick-up artistry. anglican church same exact thing.)	[14:15]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1701928 << yes, yes, but ~why~ does he think in that manner ? and why isn't he here ? and how are these two failures of his related ?	[14:16]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 15:34 valentinbuza: don't know. ask Trevor Perrin, maybe he thought of creating all the possible recipes	[14:16]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1701941 << the dispute you ended up in is due to the fact that he recognizes a pattern you do not. whether you will come to recognize it in time or not is an open matter, and not required for the discussion. the point is, the way the empire resolves the problem of practical failure (tls is a piece of shit socialism is risible bullshit) is to take refuge in meta (here's a tls-framework! let'	[14:19]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 15:40 valentinbuza: as you can see on the spec, it is not concerned with PKI or your authentication methods, it's up to you	[14:19]
mircea_popescu:	s talk about empathy!).	[14:19]
mircea_popescu:	this ever-meta-regression is a prominent feature of broken ideal systems, a good model for which is of course adolescentine "irony".	[14:20]
mircea_popescu:	girl notices she dun have tits, is "ironic" about it that dun help, she's "ironic" about it not working, becomes janine garofalo. PROBLEM SOLVED! and if not solved, can always be ironic about being janine garofalo.	[14:21]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1701949 << very much a standard in the proper sense. standard should specify what must be specified, and NOT specifiy what needn't be specified. which is why all tmsr standards, or at least the ones i wrote, have this very prominent characteristic. "do it whichever way you do it". connects straight up with ye olde specificity of diddling.	[14:24]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 15:47 asciilifeform: a 'standard' that consists of 'go and implement whatever you like' is not a standard in any meaningful sense.	[14:24]
asciilifeform:	do IT whichever way you do IT	[14:25]
asciilifeform:	not 'do whatever'	[14:25]
mircea_popescu:	there is that.	[14:25]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1701957 << no, his objection actually is "tls ingredient sucks and recipe sucks whereas noise is not a recipe and it doesn't have ingredients". he is correclty rejecting what, contrary to elaborately crafted appearance, is a null cipher.	[14:28]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 15:57 valentinbuza: probably. but i think that your argument is invalid because you say that "in TLS ingredients suck and recipe sucks" and "in Noise ingredients suck therefore the recipe also sucks"	[14:28]
mircea_popescu:	i want to take the time here and delve upon the recursion for your benefit.	[14:28]
mircea_popescu:	the point re thompson's compiler is easily misunderstood, in the sense of being conceptualized too narrowly. that unwarranted narrowness then permits you to handwave his objection re null ciphers in the actual technical discussion but look how you fell for an obfuscated null cipher yourself right here!	[14:29]
mircea_popescu:	the items are DANGEROUS, specifically because they exploit a fundamental weakness of the human brain. they're like guns to dodos, unperceived, deadly.	[14:29]
mircea_popescu:	does this make sense to you ?	[14:29]
mircea_popescu:	now consider the by now famous http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-16#1583902 and understand that the negative case WILL get the brightest minds. not once or twice, it's perfecrtly capable of getting you again and again and this doesn'rt even speak to how smart you are. how inexperienced at best, in terms of "not yet wounded by practical experience enough to systematically reject the null case".	[14:33]
a111:	Logged on 2016-12-16 06:24 trinque: in other python 2 was already shit... all([]) -> True yet any([]) -> False	[14:33]
mircea_popescu:	and in other life and times, i have a table out on a balcony overlooking the valley where i oft have breakfast. a week or so ago it gained a little wolf spider, he hunts on it. he's there every morning, and if i sit down to eat he leaves to hide in a crevice somewhere while the disturbance lasts.	[14:41]
mircea_popescu:	fucking cute biodiversidad already.	[14:41]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1701966 << more importantly, and more subtly, it sells you on the notion that "dh is a prerequisite for handshakes", which happens to be false. for one thing, you can shake a friend's hand without the usg being involved. for another, gossipd does not use dh for handshake. in short, the usgtardian nonsense is always there to distract you while it implants simpler points deep into the reptile b	[14:52]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 16:04 spyked: loaded (because I don't use this day-to-day), I must consult these items in great detail. my guess here is that once I have spent all the time to learn, the "framework" becomes useless, because the mental framework is in place.	[14:52]
mircea_popescu:	rain. whole country runs as an advertising firm, "keep 'em talking about what color highschool uniforms should be, as long as they do they've already accepted they'll wear fucking pantsuits to school like retards".	[14:52]
mircea_popescu:	you should see the latina chicks btw. they're all in school-mandated, half-thigh pleated skirts and whatnot, different colors. it's a whole level of japan over here.	[14:53]
mircea_popescu:	pete_dushenski http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/eyMrD/?raw=true spyked http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/xLR1Q/?raw=true	[15:05]
shinohai:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1702369 <<< It's a Devil House!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_AR-VqQif8	[15:29]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 18:53 mircea_popescu: you should see the latina chicks btw. they're all in school-mandated, half-thigh pleated skirts and whatnot, different colors. it's a whole level of japan over here.	[15:29]
mircea_popescu:	lel.	[15:33]
mircea_popescu:	and in other lulz, speaking of catholic latinas etc : the dispute between "progressives" and "christian fundamentalists" never ceases to amaze me. here you have two pantsuit groups which both agree with the fundamental pantsuit "every sperm is sacred". their disagreement is re when "every sperm is sacred" starts : the jesus pantsuit thinks it's at age -9 months the progre pantsuit thinks it's at - something, not quite 9 mon	[15:35]
mircea_popescu:	ths. say -5 months, -6 months, something like that.	[15:35]
mircea_popescu:	which, amusingly, makes the jesus pantsuits ACTUALLY MORE PROGRESSIVE than the new yorker crowd.	[15:36]
mircea_popescu:	somehow the participants manage to insulate themselves from these obviously very toxic facts	[15:36]
BingoBoingo:	<r0nin-> theres no such thing as an economy without credit << There is no obligation to take on credit, or keep "revolving" credit accounts	[16:00]
mircea_popescu:	except of course wife wants house to lay eggs into because "all the other girls arew doing it"	[16:12]
BingoBoingo:	Then she can pick cotton, weave tent	[16:12]
mircea_popescu:	o noes! she'll just find different sucker then!	[16:13]
BingoBoingo:	Cool, 2x people to pick cotton nao	[16:13]
mircea_popescu:	trilema back live for whoever missed it.	[16:14]
mircea_popescu:	o and what a nice header day it is, too. or should i say moon.	[16:14]
BingoBoingo:	Eh, moon was so yesterday	[16:15]
spyked:	mircea_popescu, ACK. http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/lavNS/?raw=true (hope this works, haven't done in a while)	[16:38]
mircea_popescu:	works fine.	[16:52]
mircea_popescu:	mod6 done : http://trilema.com/2016/how-to-participate-in-the-affairs-of-the-most-serene-republic/#selection-115.56-119.1 though the header could prolly go to "The Real Bitcoin public node list" or something.	[17:30]
mircea_popescu:	ftr, only a coupla of those five actually work. i can connect to 46.166.165.30 regularly but can not connect to eg 108.31.170.49	[17:35]
mircea_popescu:	nor to 172.86.178.46	[17:36]
mod6:	mircea_popescu: hey! cool. thanks for adding that in there. lemme look those IPs up quick.	[17:38]
mod6:	Ok so this one is alf's zoolag: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-05#1694292	[17:39]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-05 22:43 mod6: <+asciilifeform> zoolag live as of now at ye olde 108.31.170.49 . << thanks for the update.	[17:39]
mod6:	And as far as I know, that one is re-syncing.	[17:40]
trinque:	mircea_popescu: can't connect to deedbot's node eh?	[17:40]
mod6:	Attention rest of the node operators: Can you vouch for your node being online? Ideally, it should have 95% or better uptime.	[17:40]
trinque:	"up 363 days"	[17:41]
mod6:	fwiw, I almost never connect to these myself.	[17:41]
mod6:	Occasionally when I'm trying to do a test or some such thing.	[17:41]
trinque:	looks like I've got 25 connections atm	[17:42]
mod6:	Basically, operators are responsible for keeping the nodes going.	[17:42]
mod6:	trinque: sounds good.	[17:42]
mircea_popescu:	ah the resyncing would do it yeah	[17:43]
mircea_popescu:	mod6 same here, may be too short sampling etc. will update tonight.	[17:43]
mircea_popescu:	trinque fwiw, a public node very rarely goes under 1-200 in my experience.	[17:43]
mod6:	Ok, sure. Let me know how it goes.	[17:43]
mircea_popescu:	you may be experiencing forced drops or something.	[17:44]
trinque:	hm	[17:44]
trinque:	I'm connected to it myself from elsewhere, but who knows what's going on.	[17:47]
mircea_popescu:	and speaking of nodes and things, https://coin.dance/nodes	[17:47]
mircea_popescu:	and apparently https://bitnodes.21.co/nodes/?q=therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99 is back too	[17:48]
mircea_popescu:	trinque are you one block behind btw ? i think that might make this setup not count you	[17:49]
ben_vulpes:	mine has 30 connections atm	[17:49]
trinque:	481639	[17:52]
trinque:	so yeah, looks like there's one ahead yet	[17:52]
mircea_popescu:	yeah ok. 640 came ~5 mins ago	[17:53]
mircea_popescu:	mod6 since these are public and publicly known, how about adding an irc name next to the ip ? so i know who to talk to.	[17:54]
asciilifeform:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1702394 << it is zoolag, it is resyncing, and ( i assume everybody knows ) it is ~impossible to usefully connect to a trb node that is syncing	[18:21]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 21:40 mod6: And as far as I know, that one is re-syncing.	[18:21]
asciilifeform:	( block verify is blocking )	[18:21]
asciilifeform:	at 272303 nao	[18:21]
asciilifeform:	( and counting )	[18:21]
asciilifeform:	prolly needs at least another wk before backinbusiness	[18:22]
asciilifeform:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1702389 << .30 is dulap/snsa	[18:23]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 21:35 mircea_popescu: ftr, only a coupla of those five actually work. i can connect to 46.166.165.30 regularly but can not connect to eg 108.31.170.49	[18:23]
asciilifeform:	49 zoolag	[18:23]
asciilifeform:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1702390 << for some reason i thought that one was mircea_popescu's	[18:23]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 21:36 mircea_popescu: nor to 172.86.178.46	[18:23]
mod6:	<+mircea_popescu> mod6 since these are public and publicly known, how about adding an irc name next to the ip ? so i know who to talk to. << sure, working on the updates now...	[18:58]
BingoBoingo:	!~bcstats	[19:03]
jhvh1:	BingoBoingo: Current Blocks: 481648 \| Current Difficulty: 9.23233068448E11 \| Next Difficulty At Block: 481823 \| Next Difficulty In: 175 blocks \| Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 22 hours, 52 minutes, and 15 seconds \| Next Difficulty Estimate: None \| Estimated Percent Change: None	[19:03]
mod6:	Ok all: trinque, ben_vulpes, asciilifeform, pete_dushenski, mircea_popescu : I have updated the trusted-nodes page, please take a look and verify that the information for your nodes is correct, thank you! http://thebitcoin.foundation/trusted-nodes.html	[19:28]
shinohai:	My node info is incorrect .... it is 0.0.0.0	[19:29]
mod6:	:D	[19:29]
shinohai:	^_________________^\	[19:29]
mod6:	Also all, I have updated the howto page to link the trusted-nodes page as well: http://thebitcoin.foundation/trb-howto.html	[19:31]
deedbot:	http://qntra.net/2017/08/austria-and-car-makers-conspire-to-cripple-600000-cars-already-sold/ << Qntra - Austria And Car Makers Conspire To Cripple 600,000 Cars Already Sold	[19:43]
BingoBoingo:	^ From the between Berlin and Moscow department of departments	[19:44]
BingoBoingo:	A discovery on Infiltration from the department of web backups that are not https://archive.is/xbdld	[19:47]
BingoBoingo:	And then this discussion on the not quite backed up web in the comments http://www.jameslafond.com/article.php?id=8738&pr=1	[19:55]
mod6:	<+mircea_popescu> and speaking of nodes and things, https://coin.dance/nodes << never saw this one before, pretty cool blurb there on trb.	[19:56]
BingoBoingo:	!~ticker	[20:01]
jhvh1:	BingoBoingo: Bitfinex BTCUSD ticker \| Best bid: 4082.0, Best ask: 4082.1, Bid-ask spread: 0.10000, Last trade: 4082.0, 24 hour volume: 61725.61235773, 24 hour low: 3599.0, 24 hour high: 4141.9, 24 hour vwap: None	[20:01]
BingoBoingo:	!~ticker --market all	[20:02]
jhvh1:	BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 4085.0, vol: 23523.06050423 \| Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 4080.1, vol: 61706.76853095 \| BTCChina BTCUSD last: 4150.116401, vol: 24366.52680000 \| Kraken BTCUSD last: 4113.9, vol: 10237.1837913 \| Volume-weighted last average: 4098.18622466	[20:02]
mircea_popescu:	mod6 looks much better nao yeah.	[21:21]
mircea_popescu:	and speaking of http://thebitcoin.foundation/trusted-nodes.html : are we making it bad form for l1 to not have a node up ? or waiting till next year ?	[21:39]
mod6:	well, I think we should certainly encourage all to run a node. but yeah, maybe give it some time. my node is close, but 20k blocks behind currently.	[21:44]
mod6:	"blocks" : 460662,	[21:44]
mircea_popescu:	aite.	[21:45]
mod6:	I guess I'd like to see all of L1 at least have a trb node at least sync'ing by years end. That's a good goal.	[21:46]
mircea_popescu:	yeah.	[21:51]
mircea_popescu:	i mean, a trb capable machine is somewhere in the 50-100 bux / month range, certainly an expense but not the end of the world.	[21:51]
mod6:	Yah. My node is like ~$60/mo.	[21:52]
mod6:	To all L1 who do not have a TRB node yet, please start this process now-ish, and let me know if you need a hand standing one up when ready.	[21:53]
mircea_popescu:	l1 & aspiring l1 hehe	[21:53]
mod6:	indeed ^	[21:56]
mircea_popescu:	and in other nodes, http://68.media.tumblr.com/fc2a8f443424459184707f9472b0e450/tumblr_nwn691yqQs1ujj1izo1_1280.jpg	[22:00]
whaack:	so..does the USD monthly fee estimates imply it doesn't matter if you posses the metal? and if it doesn't matter, what are the hosting suggestions/guidelines?	[22:02]
mircea_popescu:	lol @lafond "us military is called in to sort out what is left of america". here's the scoop : us military is <100k, most of which desk flyers, out of shape and combat-useless. ever since vietnam all the us army did was "consultancy", for locals willing to fight, where they could be found.	[22:03]
mircea_popescu:	us army trying to "sort out america" would last sixteen hours. provided they start early in the morning.	[22:03]
mircea_popescu:	whaack dun imply anything, you can surely put together older gear in your den or w/e.	[22:04]
mircea_popescu:	BingoBoingo wtf is his idea "us army vs us" is 1:100 odds ? it's 100:1 lol.	[22:04]
mircea_popescu:	anyway. amateur hour.	[22:28]
asciilifeform:	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1702441 << lol! 'convened in #bitcoin-assets'. 'emergent consensus'	[22:43]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 23:56 mod6: <+mircea_popescu> and speaking of nodes and things, https://coin.dance/nodes << never saw this one before, pretty cool blurb there on trb.	[22:43]
ben_vulpes:	http://archive.is/oxRxc << ...unions refuse "to accept responsibility for service disruptions that negatively affect the customers when we have no input on operational changes."	[22:43]
asciilifeform:	if that's 'pretty good', what does prettybad look like	[22:43]
ben_vulpes:	and totally aren't saboteurs either!	[22:43]
BingoBoingo:	mircea_popescu: No idea what the concretes are beyond the admission that poverty is the condition of having a dysfunctional WoT	[22:44]
ben_vulpes:	whaack: suggestion is 'diversify'	[22:45]
ben_vulpes:	and recommendation ssd although spinning rust not impossibru to get by with it ain't long for this world.	[22:46]
BingoBoingo:	<mircea_popescu> i mean, a trb capable machine is somewhere in the 50-100 bux / month range, certainly an expense but not the end of the world. << Negrodamus, i.e. 192.187.99.74 rents for less	[22:46]
BingoBoingo:	<whaack> so..does the USD monthly fee estimates imply it doesn't matter if you posses the metal? and if it doesn't matter, what are the hosting suggestions/guidelines? << A node is not a wallet, doesn't hurt to spread a few around.	[22:48]
asciilifeform:	if speaking of cheap nodez, zoolag costs ~0 ( aside from disks ) , i get fiber to the grounds regardless	[22:48]
asciilifeform:	( if yer here, you too have a net pipe ! )	[22:49]
ben_vulpes:	asciilifeform: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/VBlZA/?raw=true	[22:49]
* mircea_popescu	has been staring at this log snippet incomprehendingly.	[22:52]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform pretty bad what ?	[22:54]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1702441 >> http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-23#1702465	[22:55]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-22 23:56 mod6: <+mircea_popescu> and speaking of nodes and things, https://coin.dance/nodes << never saw this one before, pretty cool blurb there on trb.	[22:55]
a111:	Logged on 2017-08-23 02:43 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1702441 << lol! 'convened in #bitcoin-assets'. 'emergent consensus'	[22:55]
mircea_popescu:	just some random website. what of it ?	[22:55]
mircea_popescu:	ben_vulpes is the contention union position is unreasonable ?	[22:55]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: hilariously wrong description of trb	[22:56]
mircea_popescu:	yeah well, im sure it's crowdsourced or w/e.	[22:56]
asciilifeform:	!~later tell ben_vulpes http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/gOIbx/?raw=true	[23:02]
jhvh1:	asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.	[23:02]
pete_dushenski:	lol pretty sure i wrote that coin.dance blurb however many years back	[23:08]
ben_vulpes:	mircea_popescu: gems in the linked piece in re bulldozer on tracks	[23:15]
ben_vulpes:	mircea_popescu: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/xwwuJ/?raw=true	[23:20]

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