Forum logs for 20 Mar 2017

Monday, 16 March, Year 12 d.Tr. | Author:
ben_vulpes: "would you rather buy a car repair shop or a subway?" [00:00]
mircea_popescu: buy a subway holy shit. why the fuck would you buy an item the dorks expect to be provided "as a publicgood". fuck them. [00:00]
mircea_popescu: let them provide it. [00:01]
ben_vulpes: well yeah, nobody wants to deal with schmucks who're going to gripe about the shitbuck it's going to take to fix their sole mode of transportation [00:01]
mircea_popescu: quite. [00:02]
ben_vulpes: more specifically, "assuming one wants a car shop for purely emotional and recreational reasons, how to determine what to pay for it?" "calculate hardware liquidation price, discount four years of cashflow declining by 10-30% a year to today, and offer a dime over that" [00:02]
mircea_popescu: moreover fuck the "it's going to take". you want me to own an item i can't price to market ? hurr. [00:02]
trinque: ben_vulpes: isn't trimet some kind of quasi-governmental tick sucking on not one, but two states? [00:02]
trinque: the only "own a subway" is that [00:02]
ben_vulpes: trinque: triggered [00:02]
mircea_popescu: pretty much, yes. [00:03]
ben_vulpes: trinque: subway trash food vendor [00:03]
mircea_popescu: that's the game in "owning" public infrastructure : you pretend to be the owner, offer the bureaucrats all the convenient excuses you can while sucking all the tax money possible. it's like lockheed martin without the wings [00:03]
ben_vulpes: which go for 5-7x what a car shop goes for, fwiw [00:03]
mircea_popescu: o wait, lockheed martin thing doesn't actually fly either [00:04]
mircea_popescu: it's ~= lockheed martin, on examination. [00:04]
trinque: lol [00:04]
ben_vulpes: the best game in town is actually to sell "software services" to the "public utilities" [00:04]
mircea_popescu: but yes, it's one step above trying to make money out of "guaranteed A essay" depository websites. [00:04]
mircea_popescu: except the essay is not for schoolboy consumption but for bureauctat consumption. he gives it to his boss / superviser / inquiry committee and walks [00:05]
ben_vulpes: except for how it's a miserable shitshow of liars and frauds and also you have to sell shit they won't actually benefit from to bureaucrats [00:05]
mircea_popescu: yeah, that's the problem with "sweet" setups of the religious persuasion : no real barrier to entry, it's all blowing smoke. so you sooner or later find yourself eyeball deep in the shitswamp and wonder how the "sweet" thing ended up fulla flies. [00:06]
* ben_vulpes has a tool in place, the annual maintenance and extension budget for which was dwarfed by the amount of money spent closing the sale on its replacement. which is going on lord only knows how late, nth rewrite, over budget, no surprises in sight [00:06]
mircea_popescu: there's a lot of dumb shit young men do because their parents are woodland creatures / barn animals, buyt this is by far the most common, "building a career" on government crap. [00:07]
mircea_popescu: seems a great idea until you're 40 and 10-15-20 years in. [00:07]
ben_vulpes: << tripped over the "won't connect to localhost" horseshit iirc, which you've fixed [00:22]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-16 17:25 asciilifeform: iirc ben_vulpes set up a similar experiment ( lan miner ) a month or so ago, but i dun recall what came of it [00:22]
ben_vulpes: and with this bit of how the other half lives, i bid ye adieu: [00:22]
BingoBoingo: <doppler> I've seen that you ask it quite often << Are you sure it was him you saw asking? [00:27]
shinohai: I had to fill in during your absence BingoBoingo [00:29]
shinohai: But certainly moar log reading is in order. [00:29]
trinque: I'll be impressed when the "I'm just a dude" trope goes away. [00:30]
trinque: if so, what's with the demure intro [00:30]
shinohai: "Oh wow, we've never had just any dudes here" [00:44]
BingoBoingo: From the great justice files [00:45]
trinque: We admitted we were powerless to give a shit about the IRS [00:49]
trinque: it checks out [00:49]
BingoBoingo: !~step9 [00:50]
jhvh1: 9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. [00:50]
BingoBoingo: ^ Nothing about amends to non-people which would be injurious to actual people [00:51]
deedbot: << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1135...5527 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <> ' (Unknown MX CHH) [09:26]
deedbot: << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1107...9569 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <> ' (Unknown MX CHH) [09:26]
deedbot: << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1107...9569 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <> ' (Unknown MX CHH) [09:26]
deedbot: << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1155...2443 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <> ' (Unknown MX CHH) [09:26]
shinohai: !~ticker --market all [11:29]
jhvh1: shinohai: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 1046.62, vol: 9715.90190285 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 1058.0, vol: 10542.53481 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 1046.4, vol: 31965.72322665 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 1036.93467, vol: 4979.26190000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 1021.79, vol: 3648.79513829 | Volume-weighted last average: 1046.19464506 [11:29]
asciilifeform: in other lulz, from the dept. of 'let's make a sham version of EVERYTHING discussed in #trilema', [11:35]
mircea_popescu: lel [11:37]
phf: jeez, i like how they are not even trying. a bootstrap template one pager and a link to "bitcointalk thread" [11:46]
mircea_popescu: hey, it works for the "domain name real estate" "investors" !! [11:47]
asciilifeform: << linked from somewhere in this lul [12:02]
* shinohai remembers the lukejr lulz [12:06]
BingoBoingo: Which lulz, there are many with said rat [12:49]
deedbot: << Qntra - Armed Guard At German Grocer Kills Man In Saint Louis [12:56]
asciilifeform: << trbi, with the fixed-length-everythings, needs ~no fancy indexer at all. it's for a hypothetical sane-trb. [12:58]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-20 00:42 mod6: So I'll be getting into the thick of that very soon. Lot to do to get trb-i going. [12:58]
asciilifeform: << even reiser is almost certainly waste of time, general-purpose fs is very sharply the opposite of what we want, they are all optimized for mutability (can delete/rename/resize/etc) and fast reads at the expense of slow entity creation, as well as carrying out silent rebalances/defrags/etc. [13:00]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-20 00:58 mircea_popescu: also, we are not at wall : we saw ext4 did not see ext2 did not see reiserfs. [13:00]
mircea_popescu: you might well be right. i still wanna see them. there is no possibility to waste time by looking around. [13:01]
asciilifeform: hey general-purpose fs are still useful for... general-purpose life. nobody cancelled'em [13:01]
BingoBoingo: [13:01]
asciilifeform: i'd enjoy reading honest benchmarks for 1st time in lfie [13:01]
asciilifeform: *life [13:01]
mircea_popescu: aha. [13:02]
asciilifeform: << how's that meant to work ? classical fat32 has no such animal as a symlink, for instance. [13:02]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-20 01:00 mircea_popescu: we ~might~ even wish to see fat32/ [13:02]
asciilifeform: << the magical powerz of low expectations!111 [13:03]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-20 01:03 mircea_popescu: i don't recall being as pissed off with fat32 at any point throughout the 90s as i've regularly been hence. [13:03]
asciilifeform: asciilifeform, however, remembers 'defragging.' and lost clusters. and various 'pleasures.' [13:04]
asciilifeform: << Framedragger did anybody ever in fact reverse-engineer microshit's 'exfat' ? [13:04]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-20 01:02 Framedragger: mircea_popescu: oof, max fat32 size is 4gb, with a maximum of (to the tune of) hundreds of millions of files (less than 1bn) there's also exFAT of course, etc., but eugh [13:04]
asciilifeform: last i recall, nobody had. [13:04]
mircea_popescu: not afaik [13:04]
asciilifeform: << i actually like tapes, and wish that they were readily available today in useful sizes [13:04]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-20 01:04 Framedragger: sure. my internal alfatron says "may as well test for tape backup storage system viability" though surely it's inefficient to test *all* things in a domain that one is not optimistic to begin with. but i see your rationale of course [13:04]
asciilifeform: (4GB 4mm tape is not today price-competitive, much less time-is-money-competitive, with dvd-r) [13:05]
asciilifeform: and so my tape decks, once princely , gather dust. [13:05]
Framedragger: asciilifeform: iirc there are reverse-engineered implementations, yes, but whether they're any good is another q [13:07]
asciilifeform: Framedragger: better q imho would be - whether there is anything to be learned from these. [13:07]
Framedragger: ftr, e.g. [13:07]
Framedragger: yeah sure (and probably notrly) [13:08]
asciilifeform: ( i don't recall, in my entire working life, cribbing a useful, solid piece of technical knowhow from microshit. ) [13:08]
mircea_popescu: directx. [13:08]
Framedragger: ( e.g.) [13:08]
phf: a4 sized qr codes and sheet scanners [13:08]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: directx is simply a fruit of collusion with the gpu vendors, i see nothing innovative about it [13:09]
mircea_popescu: and the original dos. [13:09]
asciilifeform: the original dos was not created by microshit. [13:09]
mircea_popescu: you didn't say "innovative" [13:09]
mircea_popescu: you said the fucking opposite. [13:09]
asciilifeform: 'useful, solid' [13:09]
mircea_popescu: knowhow. yes. directx. [13:09]
Framedragger: asciilifeform: you didn't feel any appreciation while reverse engineering rootkits targetting NT kernel? :) just curious [13:10]
Framedragger: i mean, towards NT kernel. boy i should recline now [13:10]
asciilifeform: Framedragger: 99+% of the malware samples i have ever laid hands on, were complete snoar [13:10]
asciilifeform: build in microshit vs, even. (this includes usg's, as was well laid out for exhibit in the latest dump) [13:11]
asciilifeform: *built in microshit [13:11]
Framedragger: yeahok. [13:12]
asciilifeform: << i know a d00d who paid with own money to renovate... flat he was living in. five figs (usd) even. [13:15]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-20 03:34 ben_vulpes: asks the guy who developed a recreational habit of fixing other people's toilets in the most retarded corner of south america... [13:15]
asciilifeform: it made a perverse sense, 'yes someone else will get to eat it, eventually, but moving to a flat that already has all of this, will cost MORE , and forever' [13:16]
mircea_popescu: i dun see the problem, i do this with some regularity. get the landlord to eat > then your actual residual post amortisation you're golden. [13:17]
asciilifeform: landlord ate none of the cost, this is sop for peon housing [13:17]
asciilifeform: (peon is lucky to even get permission to repaint a wall) [13:18]
mircea_popescu: hahaha gtfo. [13:18]
mircea_popescu: wtf permission, what is this bs. [13:18]
mircea_popescu: o, wait, you have "corporation" landlords over there donntcha. [13:18]
asciilifeform: some people do [13:18]
asciilifeform: in the case in question, it was a human one [13:19]
asciilifeform: (90yo who owns a few dozen properties of various descriptions) [13:19]
mircea_popescu: so then, negotiate a deal, what. [13:19]
asciilifeform: i wasn't at their negotiation table, have nfi how it went. [13:19]
asciilifeform: (but can guess. peons have ~0 negotiating leverage.) [13:20]
mircea_popescu: i've yet to meet someone who lets as a living, even if part time, who wouldn't kill for a good tenant. [13:20]
asciilifeform: it's more or less the definition of peonage. [13:20]
asciilifeform: typically 'good tenant' is one who pays on time, and asks for repairs ~never. [13:20]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform peons don't enter into it. the sort of captives in the consolidated shit of their own head who ask for a "solid, useful knowhow item" and then IMMEDIATELY retort "it isn't innovative" when such is presented, however... those doods have problems. [13:21]
mircea_popescu: depends. irl good tenant is one who doesn't damage the property more than what he pays in rent. [13:21]
mircea_popescu: surprisingly rare a class, for some reason. [13:22]
asciilifeform: this is so. [13:22]
trinque: meatwot folks that own an apartment building have told horrific stories [13:22]
trinque: human shit on the walls in more than a few cases [13:22]
mircea_popescu: erryone has a few. [13:22]
asciilifeform: but also, as i learned experimentally, one that doesn't create 'work' for the owner. for instance, i went to a great many folx who were letting out houses, and they wouldn't hear of 'install dishwasher', even when offered 100% of the (not especially frightening) cost of this mod. [13:23]
mircea_popescu: well yeah, it's all in there in de "damage property", a very general understanding of "shit that makes my economic position worse" [13:24]
asciilifeform: they dun want to do 'work'. 'this hovel was good enough for the others, it oughta be good enough for you, if you won't take it there are 25 others who will' [13:24]
mircea_popescu: lol where the fuck are these 25 others ? [13:24]
mircea_popescu: i dunno there exista a place inthis world with 90% occupation. maybe beijing. [13:24]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: sometimes they showed up almost immediately ! as in, next day i call and 'oops sorry it was already snapped' [13:25]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: HOUSES have ~100% occupation, where i live. [13:25]
mircea_popescu: thishappens sometimes even in 10% occupied real estate cases. [13:25]
asciilifeform: (flats - not.) [13:25]
mircea_popescu: ugh. weren't we discussing rents ? wtf already. [13:25]
asciilifeform: rental houses. [13:25]
asciilifeform: understand, i shop in a market where the availability is ~0. [13:25]
mircea_popescu: um. [13:25]
mircea_popescu: i think the only place where you can properly speaking rent a house is ~europe [13:26]
asciilifeform: the flats folx have the other problem: typically the landlord is a corp and operates 'by 3ring binder' [13:26]
asciilifeform: (and quite certainly won't do mods, even if entire cost is covered) [13:26]
mircea_popescu: which cycles us right back to the earlier mmmkay. [13:26]
* mircea_popescu is out of this. [13:26]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu leases entire city blocks and probably operates in somewhat different planet. [13:27]
asciilifeform: << as i understand 'innovative' is a barf trigger word for mircea_popescu , but i don't know of a more appropriate word. if q is re 'what useful things did you lift from microshit', and someone suggests 'fat16', i can only answer 'it was not innovation, did not originate from the loins of microshit.' [13:28]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-20 17:21 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform peons don't enter into it. the sort of captives in the consolidated shit of their own head who ask for a "solid, useful knowhow item" and then IMMEDIATELY retort "it isn't innovative" when such is presented, however... those doods have problems. [13:28]
mircea_popescu: a house technially is a city block. though they're generally called lots because not usually right in city. but anyway. [13:28]
mircea_popescu: who cares where it came from ? you did lift from them eh. [13:29]
mircea_popescu: or what, who else had the item. [13:29]
asciilifeform: pcdos, for instance. [13:29]
mircea_popescu: pdos had directx? [13:29]
asciilifeform: fat16 ! [13:29]
mircea_popescu: sigh. [13:29]
asciilifeform: directx is not even A TECHNOLOGY, it's a proprietary microshit api [13:29]
asciilifeform: how would one go about lifting it ? [13:30]
mircea_popescu: look, turn it how you will. you got a serious hole in your brain. dun wanna fix it, fine, but that dun mean you don't have it. you do. [13:30]
asciilifeform: what useful piece can i cut out, and use outside of microshitistan ? [13:30]
mircea_popescu: not a matter of "oh, mp has allergies" not a matter of "check me out, i invented rhetorics and also i'm so smooth ima strawman all over! fat16!11" not a matter of anything else, there's no way out of it. [13:31]
asciilifeform: i'd genuinely like to know what mircea_popescu takes issue with in this thread [13:32]
mircea_popescu: 1. you asked for an item by stated criteria, were provided the item, pretended the item fails a criterion that is actually the opposite of your stated criteria 2. when confronted with your ridiculous misbehaviour, you attempted to replace the item with a different item and show you can defeat the different item. [13:34]
mircea_popescu: there's more, but a coupla suffice. [13:34]
asciilifeform: i stand by the statement: nothing which is original in microshitistan, is any good and any which is good in microshitistan, is not the least bit original. [13:34]
mircea_popescu: i suppose we can add 3, "once 1 and 2 are on the table, take refuge in contradictory schemes". there is no such thing as original technology. for something to be a technology it must be unoriginal. original shit is called literature. [13:34]
asciilifeform: if mircea_popescu wants to inhabit a mental universe where 'there is no such thing as original technology' and xerox parc circa 1970s is exactly same thing as microshit today -- i can't possibly stop him. [13:35]
mircea_popescu: bitcoin is morerover a fine example in this vein. it's pretty fucking original. [13:36]
phf: "How come he doesn't know it? Because he's got flies in his eyes. How can he see he's got flies in his eyes if he's got flies in his eyes?" [13:36]
mircea_popescu: and it's original throughout. check out those novel data structures~! [13:36]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform give an example of this original technology and i'll just say "no pcdos" at it. [13:37]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: introducing the nonsensical 'original throughout' device ( nobody else, incl asciilifeform , had ) does not help mircea_popescu's argument [13:37]
mircea_popescu: interestinf approach, but twas merely an example, not an argument as such. [13:38]
mircea_popescu: i'm not saying "x is y because bitcoin" i'm saying "x is y and btw, check out bitcoin lulz." [13:38]
trinque: gotta be able to admit one's political bias plainly, or it warps like so. "microshit is evil therefore I will ignore their output" is not the same as "factually they never once built a thing" [13:38]
mircea_popescu: he has a point in that they leveraged horizonals in the market to get data. [13:39]
mircea_popescu: but they did fucking get it, and used it, and for a decade they owned gfx. [13:39]
mircea_popescu: course opengl also owned it the next decade, and did even less with it. [13:39]
asciilifeform: trinque: funnily enough, i spend a good chunk of my waking hours 'not ignoring' microshit's output, i earn bread by juggling microshitiana (dealing with, from various directions, malware) [13:39]
trinque: yeah so you hate it even more then [13:40]
trinque: lol [13:40]
trinque: "I have to stare into this thing's asshole 8 hours a day" [13:40]
mircea_popescu: other part of the problem is that it's too large a corp. their kernel ppl and their directx people were pretty much as related as samsung and apple. [13:40]
deedbot: << Qntra - Relics Of American "Great Again" Found In Mexico [13:40]
asciilifeform: trinque: understand, i would much ~like~ to find something stimulating, inside that arse [13:40]
mircea_popescu: o shait, invasion time BingoBoingo ? [13:40]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the problem is they never got lucky with that hole. [13:40]
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Maybe. Serious intl incident material! [13:40]
* mircea_popescu would like to see a us-mexico war v3 ? v4 ? [13:41]
mircea_popescu: good to periodically fight the same neighbour, keeps the spirit stimulated. [13:41]
mircea_popescu: teh russians know. [13:41]
trinque: not much airpower there, but probably amply more "asymmetric warfare" inclination [13:41]
mircea_popescu: trinque the mexican "deep state" has been living in this situation where beheaded chief of police weekly. [13:42]
mircea_popescu: they're a lot tougher than the us counterparts by now. [13:42]
trinque: aha, meanwhile americans wilt when a building comes down [13:42]
* BingoBoingo thinks v3, but unsure. Would be v4 if Zimmermann telegram, but if Zimmermann telegram would have moved Mexico to act, American might instead be looking towards The Great Already [13:43]
mircea_popescu: im sure they'll send the late night circuit comedians. what could anyone do to that. [13:43]
mircea_popescu: the charge of the sarah silverman brigade. [13:43]
asciilifeform: mexican-war-with-usa makes approx as much sense as pirate war against spanish crown [13:44]
mircea_popescu: hey, ~same as afghanistan but closer. save on fuel, be green. [13:45]
mircea_popescu: planet will thankya. [13:45]
BingoBoingo: !~bash3 [13:45]
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Error: "bash3" is not a valid command. [13:45]
asciilifeform: (what'd make the pirates turn into a navy ? and whattodo after victory, and there are no moar galleons to take gold off?) [13:45]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you can swear allegiance to the flag of the united nationx of mexico just as well. can even save the original two words of the whole signage [13:45]
trinque: ah I could see the same thing as turkey and EU with mexico down the road [13:45]
mircea_popescu: trinque mexico's no turkey though. [13:46]
trinque: they get flooded with venezuelans or w/e [13:46]
trinque: threaten to send 'em over [13:46]
mircea_popescu: ah totally. [13:46]
mircea_popescu: anyway. typically pirate war against the crown wants you know, the fortress of martinique. and gibraltar. [13:49]
asciilifeform: aha! [13:49]
mircea_popescu: kinda ~same as "fight for freedom" of strategically placed nothings. [13:49]
mircea_popescu: taiwan, what have you [13:49]
asciilifeform: i can entirely see mexicans taking a specific-something. [13:49]
mircea_popescu: yeah, gate to texas, gate to cali, that sorta thing. hook the white girl's knees spread nice and wide, what. [13:49]
asciilifeform: << these are surprisingly great 'cpu for the dollar', because ~severely~ underpriced , even for a junk market item : they're ~entirely worthless to mactards who would 'use as printed on the box', because last 7 or so crapple os versions will refuse to run on it. but potentially very valuable for, e.g., bsd user. [13:52]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-20 03:45 ben_vulpes: no, specifically the macintosh ppc g5's [13:52]
trinque: they run openbsd great [13:52]
mircea_popescu: ah that's a pretty great point huh. [13:52]
mircea_popescu: nice alternative to the linux-on-amd freezeout [13:52]
asciilifeform: and unlike, e.g., most sun boxes, they have normal 'earthling' pci, and reasonably obtainable sdram. [13:53]
trinque: people are selling the minis like they're worth their weight in trash [13:53]
asciilifeform: trinque: there was a g5 'mini' ?! [13:53]
trinque: no, g4 [13:53]
asciilifeform: aah [13:53]
trinque: but 10 of them in a stack beats "containers" [13:53]
asciilifeform: g4 was not impressive imho, no 64bitness. [13:54]
asciilifeform: you're stuck with 4GB. [13:54]
asciilifeform: i threw out my g4s. [13:54]
trinque: I've found uses for them, but also have several of the g5 towers and the imac g5 [13:54]
mircea_popescu: can be a router or w/e [13:55]
trinque: aha [13:55]
trinque: mail, whatever [13:55]
trinque: doesn't need gigs of ram and 64bit [13:55]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: no GBe -- not , imho, any kind of router. [13:55]
mircea_popescu: ah there is that. [13:55]
asciilifeform: trinque: for 'microscopic task but needs own box', i prefer something more like pogo, which is fanless, solidstate, and zero-maintenance. vs ancient clunking monster , howling like vacuum cleaner and filled with dying mechanical hdds [13:57]
mircea_popescu: course depends what you have installed. plenty of places on mbit cable, no fiber, no plans to ever fiber. [13:57]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: even there, 0 reason for lan to be anything but GB [13:57]
mircea_popescu: but yes, fanless pogo has some major mojo [13:57]
trinque: so lan sits on gigabit switch [13:57]
trinque: but cable modem is not >100, not nearly [13:57]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well, 1 reason : you got a g4 lol [13:57]
trinque: also what's this "one router" [13:58]
mircea_popescu: trinque i got some 100 MBps pipes, but yeah, can't just pop a random 50 whatever from radio shack on me [13:58]
mircea_popescu: em* [13:58]
trinque: my modem's 300 but try getting a connection like that in the tx burbs [13:58]
trinque: moving downtown though, so maybe I can get something a little less barbaric [13:59]
asciilifeform: << eventually happens to everything. as per, even, the 'regression to mean' thread. [14:00]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-20 03:49 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes it occurs to me, btw, that the scam whereby people who were holding jobs shares were converted to cook shares is one of the cruelest things in nature. [14:00]
trinque: asciilifeform: pointedly they lack the "management engine" shit put in later CPUs [14:00]
trinque: or giant honking EFI [14:00]
asciilifeform: trinque: my 6502 also lacks 'management engine' [14:00]
trinque: oh, same thing eh? [14:00]
asciilifeform: but you can in fact get 64bit machines with 0 blobolade. [14:01]
asciilifeform: the very same alphas, for instance. [14:01]
trinque: or... g5 [14:01]
asciilifeform: the (classical, not the rebranded x86 idiocy) sgi ones, also [14:01]
asciilifeform: the g5. [14:01]
asciilifeform: the g4 however is approx as useful as old p3. [14:02]
asciilifeform: ( do you pick up p3 when someone throws out ? i -- no longer do ) [14:02]
trinque: runs (for example) a test server for deedbot just fine [14:02]
asciilifeform: i'm sure it does [14:02]
trinque: and burn minimal power [14:03]
trinque: yes, not going to phuctor on it [14:03]
asciilifeform: but not only do i actually pay per kWatt/hr here (in summer time : TWICE: again to remove the waste heat!) and have quite limited space, but there are only so many p3 you can hang off ups. [14:03]
trinque: but will perform various tasks of a household [14:03]
asciilifeform: and n+1st ups is several $k usd. [14:03]
trinque: holy shit I just said [14:04]
trinque: 32W [14:04]
trinque: idle [14:04]
asciilifeform: trinque: which box was this [14:04]
trinque: the mini g4 [14:04]
asciilifeform: aah [14:04]
trinque: they cron-inate and whatnot [14:04]
* asciilifeform puts on list of 'to not leave in dumpster, if seen in one' [14:04]
mircea_popescu: lol [14:05]
mircea_popescu: it's a wonder you don't drive a ford pickup [14:05]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'd own a dump truck with a crane -- if had where to keep it. [14:05]
mircea_popescu: well... move to texas. you can get crane garage there [14:05]
asciilifeform: one of these days i must go there. [14:06]
asciilifeform: ( it is, for instance, where the pet was born. ) [14:06]
trinque: neato [14:06]
trinque: I have a feeling you'd tolerate the people a bit moar than DC [14:06]
asciilifeform: probably. [14:06]
mircea_popescu: either that or get shot. [14:07]
asciilifeform: i can get shot for free here!111 [14:07]
mircea_popescu: not the same thing if white man does it. [14:08]
asciilifeform: tru, classier. perhaps i can be shot in a proper saloon, next to a spittoon. [14:09]
mircea_popescu: i first read "next to a stripper" [14:10]
mircea_popescu: then i noticed it didnt say stripper. [14:10]
mircea_popescu: why not! [14:10]
asciilifeform: also not a bad place! [14:10]
deedbot: << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1646...2357 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <> ' ( IT RM 62) [14:11]
deedbot: << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1728...7809 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <> ' ( IT RM 62) [14:11]
* mircea_popescu tries for a few minutes in vain to turn the strange habit of porn actors of spitting into gaping assholes into some kind of a spittoon joke, gives up [14:11]
mircea_popescu: i'm losing my edge! [14:11]
asciilifeform: !$ ssh [14:12]
scriba: ssh banner of as seen on 2016-06-13: SSH-2.0-OpenSSH_4.3p2 Debian-9 [14:12]
asciilifeform: quite unrelatedly, asciilifeform went through own and relatives' dwellings with geiger counter and turned up one of those 'barbaric' radium-dialed clocks (zinc sulphide long ago decayed, so no light, but mighty gamma.) [14:36]
asciilifeform: and this reminded me, did mircea_popescu ever write a piece re the 'radium girls' ? the ones that licked the brushes and rotted. they are brought up as darlings of the 'unions' era, 'wurker's rights', etc. but in actuality they not only licked the brushes but painted own lips, nails, jewelry, etc. [14:37]
mircea_popescu: i thnk i must've. [14:40]
asciilifeform: can haz link ? [14:40]
mircea_popescu: also the dork selling "Radium wateR" [14:40]
mircea_popescu: lessee [14:40]
Framedragger: don't forget radium "shines at night!" toothpaste [14:41]
mircea_popescu: << ro as it turns out. [14:42]
asciilifeform: neato, ty midnightmagic [14:42]
asciilifeform: rrr [14:42]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu [14:42]
* asciilifeform thinks the default behaviour of 'tab complete' in this irctron is quite ridiculous [14:43]
mircea_popescu: alphabetic order neh ? [14:44]
mircea_popescu: should it count your references ? [14:44]
asciilifeform: imho sanity would be to sort by lines-in-past-N-minute [14:44]
mircea_popescu: count references in scrollback ? [14:44]
asciilifeform: with exponential decay. [14:44]
asciilifeform: aha [14:44]
mircea_popescu: tbh, the intensive referential way we use irc is entirely... original [14:45]
mircea_popescu: never before in the history of this tech has a trilema existed [14:45]
asciilifeform: afaik. [14:45]
deedbot: << » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski - AAPL stock fraud cca. 2011 [15:22]
shinohai: White supremacists are getting darker these days: [15:51]
mircea_popescu: in other lulz, the state of casual gaming is completely fucked up. so other than utter throwaways, stuff that looks like someone's undegrad project, the ~entire market of ipad-likes (stuff that works in the browser, or else via a "light" client for windows/mac, or else as a ipad/android etc app) is wholly like this : [16:46]
mircea_popescu: 1. the company (say r2games, there's a few but identical entirely) hires out a bunch of cubical drones, has them churn out a "game" to 3-ring binder spec. you prolly know the shit, stamina-constellations-etc. [16:47]
mircea_popescu: there's major reuse, the "voices" of characters in "different" games often end up the same digital asset etc. [16:48]
mircea_popescu: 2. the "social media platform" (say, g2arcade, there's a bunch but identical entirely) make a whitelabel with the company, pushes the game on "its" users (the catch being that they try to get the user to use their "accounts" rather than the company's -- and there's a lot of utterly corporate-like entrenchment around this topic.) [16:49]
mircea_popescu: 3. the "payment platform" (all of these work on micropayments, obv) is a wrapper style thing (say, paymentwall, but there's at least 500 entirely identical items vying for a pie $lice with absolutely no distinction whatsoever) processes cards and also links to a pile of... i don'\t even know what these are. looks a lot like the silver age of porn really, early 2000s, where the various paysites kept trying to push each other. [16:51]
mircea_popescu: so gtarcade -> r2games -> paymentwall -> paypal/qiwiwallet/unipin wallet/webmoney/indomog/cherry credits/mycard/mol (money online -- fucking george constanza lives i swear) and so on and so forth. [16:52]
mircea_popescu: this is the "digital economy". [16:52]
mircea_popescu: it's literally like watching flies fuck. [16:52]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: was 'casual came' at any point -- in its ~commercial~ ( vs tetrises, alexey pajitnov ) phase of life -- ever anything other than this ? [16:53]
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo: "the jerseys" "was located" [16:53]
mircea_popescu: yes. at some glorious point in the 90s it was ~same as a bar. you went with your friends to a dedicated bit of real estate. [16:54]
mircea_popescu: !~google "book of the gord" [16:54]
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: Acts of Gord : Love the Gord , Fear the Gord: <> Acts of Gord - The Book of Annoyances: <> Acts of Gord - The Book of Apocalypse: <> [16:54]
mircea_popescu: ^ rather typical exponent. [16:54]
BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: ty fxd [16:56]
asciilifeform: dunno that it makes sense to deal with coin arcades and 'konsoomer'-portable gamez, as same animal [16:56]
mircea_popescu: and why not ? [16:56]
asciilifeform: arcades were a social activity, only partially about the game itself. [16:56]
mircea_popescu: the missing link is the attempted "ipad-powered restaurant" by that idiot from consumer computing, that we discussed here. [16:56]
mircea_popescu: these are EXACTLY the same thing the arcade and the ipad exist because ameritards exist because oil was a thing and pittsburg was a thinbg before that etc. [16:57]
mircea_popescu: it's like disco but for the 90s. [16:57]
mircea_popescu: no longer looking to get laid, but still the same herbivore beasts. [16:57]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no but see ... this crap is also .. .only partially about the game itself. they... got accounts!1 [16:58]
mircea_popescu: \wouldn't you like to link your facebook profile ? for security ? and etc ? [16:58]
* trinque hears the gushing of printed money into the abyss [16:59]
asciilifeform: i actually have ~0 idea what specifically supports the 'mainstream' commercial existence of the ipad. (as in the old ebay thread with mircea_popescu , it turns out that asciilifeform's uses for various items are often quite nonstandard ) [16:59]
trinque: mine serves to play a ported Riven at the moment, otherwise sits at bottom of a drawer [16:59]
trinque: might be the only actual gaming use for such a thing, the point and click adventure games [17:00]
trinque: originally released in 1997 btw [17:00]
asciilifeform: i haven't met a likable touchpad game, yet [17:00]
asciilifeform: in just about every case 'i wish i had a mouse, why is my cursor finger-sized' [17:00]
trinque: well, those descended-from-hypercard games are basically tap all over the place, touch works fine [17:00]
mircea_popescu: ^ [17:01]
asciilifeform: yeah but they were generally made for mouse. [17:01]
asciilifeform: i tried once to play various 'scummvm' classics on a patched ipad, it was blergh [17:01]
mircea_popescu: there's browser versions for most if not all of them [17:01]
asciilifeform: 'i want to click on the pirate, not the beer mug' [17:01]
mircea_popescu: anyway, if you're curious, visit the offerings of the mentioned. "league of angels" "battle for kingdom" "throne of throne" "legend of story" they've a few hundred of such field-appropriate thesaurus permutations. [17:02]
mircea_popescu: none of them have clickable blocks smaller than about a child's fist anyway. [17:03]
trinque: the malinvestment called zynga caused it, more or less [17:03]
asciilifeform: 'extruded product' [17:03]
asciilifeform: quite like american 'food', 'films'... [17:03]
mircea_popescu: trinque not an expert other than by need but i suspect zynga is a different strand. these are the azn "fantasy" offerings, wanna-be d2 and h3, by the looks of them. [17:04]
mircea_popescu: and they do try to be all respectable, there's always a "arrow to the knee" reference and so. entirely chinese type of idiocy. [17:04]
mircea_popescu: whereas the zynga stuff is more in the vein of eve and such things, clearly made by and for project managers. [17:04]
trinque: the "social media 'gaming'" thing though, was large part them. many of their games bolted directly to facebook, i.e. inside the thing [17:05]
ben_vulpes: the moo3 rewrite for touchscreen isn't a...bad...rewrite... [17:05]
asciilifeform: << obligatory. [17:05]
ben_vulpes: touchscreens are just woefully inadequate devices for complexity mgmt. [17:05]
mircea_popescu: trinque yeah. there's one actually ingenious strand, that somewhat straddles the zynga-likes and the r2-likes : the eggers, you know those ? [17:06]
trinque: then it was race to the bottom in terms of easiest yes, extruded product, to bolt to facebook [17:06]
trinque: I do not [17:06]
mircea_popescu: the fundamental mechanic being that you have animals which you gotta mate and then raise the eggs and you can get varying stuff out of the eggs and etc. [17:06]
shinohai: No surprise the cattle wish to play Farmville [17:06]
trinque: oh yeah, gets women to go "oh cute" for 5min [17:07]
mircea_popescu: see, the zinga/eve/fb games are all timers, basically. clicjk here to start a timer is the whole proposition. [17:07]
ben_vulpes: i'm in the habit of installing gb/gba emulators on my friends ipnohes [17:07]
trinque: controls are butts [17:07]
ben_vulpes: apple borks the thing remotely within a month [17:07]
ben_vulpes: every time [17:07]
mircea_popescu: whereas the r2 games are "stamina" games. ie, basic dungeon costs 6 and "elite dungeon" (whatever) costs 12 and you have 100 or 200 and get 12 a minute. [17:07]
ben_vulpes: nevertheless, the response is "holy fuck, i haven't had this much fun playing games on my phone...ever!" [17:07]
trinque: I played through wizards and warriors on ipnoje [17:07]
ben_vulpes: "yeah, and now how pissed are you at apple?" [17:07]
mircea_popescu: what is gb ? [17:07]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: at one point (the last time asciilifeform gave half a shit, 2010 or so) it was considered ~impossible to get an emulator of whatever kind, past the censors [17:07]
Framedragger: correlate gameplay to 'personality traits' => political 'lifestyles' (bernays and all modern 'voter-shaping' organizations) => sell data => $? [17:08]
trinque: mircea_popescu: gameboy [17:08]
mircea_popescu: oh oh. [17:08]
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: well you don't go through the censors obvs [17:08]
* mircea_popescu never got into that. [17:08]
ben_vulpes: "i'm going to put a fun thing on your phone. apple will break it within the month, because they're assholes." [17:08]
mircea_popescu: Framedragger i suppose that's what they tell "investor" suckers to get them to pay out. [17:08]
ben_vulpes: it's an educational project, asciilifeform . [17:08]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: how would crapple break a properly jailbroken box ? [17:08]
asciilifeform: in every case it is the luser who breaks (by 'ooh i'ma UPDATE!111') [17:08]
mircea_popescu: truth be told ~most of this crap is paid for by consumer-"investors" rather than by their kids spending $2 to "recharge" [17:08]
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: users don't get a choice any more, not really [17:08]
ben_vulpes: also these devices are not properly jailbroken [17:09]
trinque: there's an emulator snuck through apple approval processes every now and then [17:09]
mircea_popescu: it's not even very clear they wish to play. plenty are quite happy watching other dudes play and stream it live. [17:09]
ben_vulpes: "here's a taste of life as curated by the competent, aren't you mad at the fake lifestyle you've been fed?" [17:09]
phf: you can install scummvm on an ipad without jailbreaking [17:09]
mircea_popescu: which incidentally reminds me of how poor kids "played" in the 90s too. [17:09]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: aaah 'soft' jailbreak, was it, 'till next reboot' [17:09]
ben_vulpes: not eve, just 'sideload' [17:09]
ben_vulpes: not even* [17:09]
asciilifeform: phf: that must be new/recent [17:09]
phf: it was always the case. you deploye whatever custom app through standard xcode/blah infrastructure. you can't do it as a casual of course [17:10]
asciilifeform: phf: ah those. [17:10]
asciilifeform: iirc (again when i last had a crapple dev acct) there was a limit, was it, 100 (?) boxes of 'sideload' per acct. [17:11]
asciilifeform: so was never a mass thing. [17:11]
asciilifeform: and the signature would be good for a few wks at most. [17:11]
ben_vulpes: you can self-sign trivially these days. [17:11]
ben_vulpes: what does it take to actually xcode these days? 100us/yr still? [17:12]
asciilifeform: 0idea [17:12]
asciilifeform: i thought ben_vulpes was the iphonist [17:12]
ben_vulpes: 'iphonist' === 'click the ok and fix issue button' [17:13]
asciilifeform: back in ye olden days, it was 100. [17:13]
mircea_popescu: i think it's 50 now [17:13]
phf: relatedly, aquaria is a neat action adventure for ipad. i think that's the only ipad game i actually enjoyed, though it's not particularly creative. swim around enjoy pretty art [17:13]
* mircea_popescu despises "games" without mechanics. [17:14]
ben_vulpes: upstack, trinque asciilifeform y'figure the g5's will only take a bsd? i've got a pile of links for 'linux on g5', but have yet to start sucking the spittoon down. would rather know if actually impossible up front. [17:17]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: iirc trinque is the go-to man re g5. [17:17]
asciilifeform: and possibly BingoBoingo . [17:17]
asciilifeform: i don't even presently have 1. [17:17]
ben_vulpes: no reason one couldn't compile a kernel for it, right? [17:18]
asciilifeform: could! [17:18]
* ben_vulpes halfway looking forward to the next gentoo quest [17:18]
asciilifeform: << the world of 'neuro-typical' folx who have 'no theorems to prove', and nothing with which to legitimately to busy themselves, is ugly indeed. these people oughta be occupied with raising ~actual~ chickens etc. [17:18]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-20 21:06 mircea_popescu: the fundamental mechanic being that you have animals which you gotta mate and then raise the eggs and you can get varying stuff out of the eggs and etc. [17:18]
ben_vulpes: breeding chickens is a thing with which to legitimately busy oneself. [17:19]
phf: both trinque and bingoboingo are bsd people, so that's probably why. i ran linux on g3-g5 2000-2010 [17:19]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: well yes! [17:19]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: thread was re 'simulated chicken farmings' [17:19]
ben_vulpes: oh oh [17:19]
ben_vulpes: well more likely they have not the land with which. [17:19]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: imho it is a waste, these folx could quite enjoy life as ~actual~ chicken handlers [17:19]
ben_vulpes: even plants likely beyond those folks. [17:19]
asciilifeform: aha [17:20]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this one is a particular gem, conceptually, in the vein of that romanian "s-o-ntilnit prostu' cu hotu'" (ie, "the thief and the idiot met", shorthand for a certain sort of narrow horizon happiness). ie, "oh, this egg takes EIGHT hours to hatch! that one 24!! it's so much better!!11 [17:20]
mircea_popescu: how to sell pe [17:20]
mircea_popescu: ople on the notion of hanging around waiting for timers. [17:20]
trinque: ben_vulpes: putting a gentoo on one would not be a waste of time [17:20]
mircea_popescu: very VERY anthropologically interesting. [17:20]
asciilifeform: trinque: consider publishing a recipe [17:20]
trinque: I haven't one, is why [17:20]
asciilifeform: aah [17:20]
trinque: my gentoos are x86-64 [17:20]
trinque: not that it should be terribly difficult once you figure out launching whichever bootloader from openfirmware, iirc yaboot [17:21]
asciilifeform: trinque: all of the iron is documented/driverized by nao ? [17:21]
asciilifeform: ( asciilifeform has nfi ) [17:21]
ben_vulpes: kinda the working theory, we'll see how it holds up in battle. [17:21]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform anyway, they COULD NOT enjoy life as chicken handlers, because they'd do dumb shit. there's a reason situation with 1k droolers with chicken coop 20 chickens each turned into 1 chicken farm, 20k chickens, designed by 1, ran by 10, and 989 droolers on ipads waiting for the counter to count down. [17:21]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i thought the reason was petro->chickenfeed conversion and economics of scale. [17:22]
mircea_popescu: i do not believe so. [17:22]
mircea_popescu: the reason is the failure of the workforce to keep up with the complexity of scientifico-technical world. [17:22]
mircea_popescu: note that in any industry, it is LABOR that is the killer cost, not MATERIALS. [17:23]
mircea_popescu: this imo disposes of the dispute. [17:23]
asciilifeform: i am still thinking about the 'radium girls' mircea_popescu . for some reason most 'left'-flavoured historians don't mention the fact that they were paid 2-3x the market rate for 'generic unskilled gurl' [17:23]
asciilifeform: and did quite easy work. what, not 1 of them wondered 'why' ? [17:23]
mircea_popescu: "where can i find a guy who is safe to work in a datacenter ?" "where 1% of the 1% gather", doublespoken as "for 100k a year". [17:23]
asciilifeform: the radium girl was exactly mircea_popescu's 'twerker': 'value extracted from marginal' [17:24]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform they all wondered and they all had an answer. guess the answerr ? [17:24]
asciilifeform: 'because oooh hey i need to paint my lips again' [17:24]
mircea_popescu: nah. "i'm totally worth it because i'm just that good because i'm special because i'm too dumb to realise how trite i am." [17:24]
asciilifeform: aaaah. [17:24]
trinque: she found the one trick they don't wnat you to know [17:24]
mircea_popescu: look at all the "bitcoin ceos". i ask them this... and they think... i insulted them. [17:25]
mircea_popescu: trinque found it, licked it. [17:25]
mircea_popescu: chucka sleeps warm in the taiga tonight. [17:25]
mircea_popescu: and tomorrow -- it's jawtime! [17:25]
asciilifeform: btw i recently heard that the 'last radium gurl' died in 2014. apparently there are folx who are unkillable even by it. [17:25]
mircea_popescu: radiation is noxious not toxic. it culls the herd, doesn't end it. [17:26]
asciilifeform: she could've been valuable experimental subject for the radioprotectant pharama folx (never heard of'em ? subj went out of style, at least publicly, in 1970s afaik) [17:26]
asciilifeform: *pharma [17:26]
mircea_popescu: in fact, there's quite nothing in chemistry like radiation. all poisons eventually kill everyone as you increase the dosage. even water. radiation however... [17:26]
asciilifeform: dunno that the 'hormesis' hypothesis ever panned out [17:27]
asciilifeform: in either direction [17:27]
mircea_popescu: sure it did. most therapy is based on toxic agents. [17:27]
mircea_popescu: paracetamol extends your life plenty. [17:27]
asciilifeform: no, specifically 'radiation hormesis' [17:27]
mircea_popescu: oh that, definitely not. [17:27]
mircea_popescu: in some cancers, but even then dubious as all hell. [17:27]
asciilifeform: as in 'creatures evolved with a detectable background, they NEED it' or, in weaker form, 'it does 0 to them' [17:28]
mircea_popescu: nobody needs it. then again, background radiation does ~0, give or take a few cancers [17:28]
asciilifeform: what even counts as 'background'. fun exercise is to take ordinary geiger and try in a room with -- then without -- people. [17:29]
asciilifeform: notice the difference. [17:29]
mircea_popescu: then - without adobe brick. [17:29]
asciilifeform: Sr-90 in bones. [17:29]
asciilifeform: (~everyone born after '45) [17:29]
mircea_popescu: yeah, this is a good point, huh. [17:30]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: cinderblock (usa) is a champ. followed by 'fancy' tiles (granite, various) [17:30]
mircea_popescu: "they don't make 'em like they used to" "well, they didn't use to have to use sr-90 / ca-40 mix!" [17:30]
asciilifeform: aha [17:30]
asciilifeform: recall the thread re the cathedral roofs ? [17:30]
asciilifeform: ( , possibly elsewhere ) [17:31]
a111: Logged on 2015-05-01 03:02 asciilifeform: re: how, famously, semiconductor folks used to buy up medieval lead roofs from cathedrals, etc. to get low-rad material [17:31]
mircea_popescu: cinderblock ie, "wouldn't you like to lvie in a hut made of concentrated furnace waste" ? [17:31]
asciilifeform: notably nobody ever gets asked 'wouldja like to...' [17:31]
asciilifeform: the waste -- WILL be used. to build. [17:32]
asciilifeform: and plebes -- will inhabit. [17:32]
asciilifeform: ( most americans live in cardboard dwellings. but they work, shop, idle about, in cinderblock walls. ) [17:33]
asciilifeform: ditto blocks of flats. [17:33]
asciilifeform: (typically outside wall -- pressed ash, complete with thorium, yes) [17:33]
trinque: I can't think of any better use for that. [17:34]
trinque: lol [17:34]
ben_vulpes: likelihood of earthquakes makes for robust buildings where i live [17:36]
trinque: thorium in the walls is right up there with mircea_popescu's [17:36]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-20 03:47 mircea_popescu: imagine if in a few years the actual fucking chunks of metal are the point of worship. "oh man, that's tech! who can make straight angles anymore!" [17:36]
trinque: ben_vulpes: ah nothing will stand up through the next big san andreas fault slip [17:37]
ben_vulpes: trinque: not usably, no [17:37]
asciilifeform: to maybe revisit upstack, some folx 'marginal' and have very little to offer economically other than 'morts', 'willing to clear mines', 'clean melted reactor' [17:37]
ben_vulpes: but won't kill quite so many folks this time. [17:37]
asciilifeform: and who is to even say who they are. programmer, growing sclerotic in his chair, does he die more slowly than the radium girl ? [17:38]
asciilifeform: or any less dead. [17:38]
trinque: but I don't think the person's reasoning involves their uselessness [17:41]
trinque: quite the contrary [17:41]
trinque: what loser did you ever meet who was solidly convinced of the truth? [17:41]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform on contemplation, the need-radiation organisms are probably bacteria. i imagine it figures heftily in the "endless adaptability of life on earth" for anything with short (subweek ?) cycles. from coprophyta to drosophila, most of the biomass. [18:13]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: tricky, conflates 'individual needs' with 'species needs' [18:14]
asciilifeform: quite elementarily 'species -- needs', otherwise ~0 mutation and ~0 adaptation to changing environs [18:14]
mircea_popescu: myeah. though if it's proper to speak of you as individual, why exactly not of 1 bn worth of bacterial cells together ? [18:14]
mircea_popescu: what, special because glued ? [18:14]
mircea_popescu: (this is just a play on the fundamental fact that THERE IS NO MEANING IN NATURE. there's no such thing as "people" or "individual" or "life" or "god" etc irl. all psychogenic noise, the happenstance branches of your own process of organizing the exterior, unrelated to the exterior.) [18:15]
asciilifeform: normally 'special' because 'specialized multi-cell organs', rather than simply 'glued' [18:15]
mircea_popescu: orly. [18:15]
asciilifeform: speaking strictly of the elementary diff b/w 'man and fungus' [18:16]
mircea_popescu: shorthand merely. [18:16]
asciilifeform: 0 to do with the psychiatric 'i'm speshul!' tho. [18:16]
mircea_popescu: well, very little to do, let's say [18:16]
mircea_popescu: naught besides the obvious "happens in a head". [18:16]
asciilifeform: but does relate to the radiation thing, deinococcus radiodurans laughs at dose that's thermonuke every other living thing, but it very much helps that one deinococcus radiodurans is readily 'fungible', will substitute for any other in the dish. [18:17]
asciilifeform: whereas if instead of dish you have a mouse, having such things as white cells, liver, other 'specialized parts', then considerably higher bar. [18:18]
mircea_popescu: not EXACTLY. just, substitute to your standards. [18:18]
asciilifeform: ( it is not even really correct to say 'one bacterium readily stands in for another', the dish does not live and die 'as group' ) [18:20]
mircea_popescu: myeah. [18:21]
mircea_popescu: nor, for that matter, do you. [18:21]
asciilifeform: aha -- interestingly, ~90% of a freshly dead mouse, or man, is 'alive' [18:21]
mircea_popescu: ~no cells present at your birth are still there, seems to not bother your sense of identity. [18:21]
asciilifeform: if it could walk away ! [18:21]
asciilifeform: some folx have finicky and easily bothered 'senses of identity'. not i [18:22]
mircea_popescu: so then you know, arbitrarily defined cell collection is arbitrarily defined cell collection. hoop. [18:22]
asciilifeform: (i'd quite happily walk into the mythical teleporter, for instance.) [18:23]
trinque: I dunno what changes there distinct from you falling asleep in one spot, being moved 5ft over, and waking up [18:24]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: again, not 'arbitrary' for purpose of subj , put a bullet ( or dose of gamma, or whatnot ) through bacterial culture, and it closes the hole in a few hrs, and who could say there ever was a hole. but try same hole through mouse, or man. [18:24]
mircea_popescu: depending on hole, ~same. [18:24]
trinque: man does the same at scale [18:25]
mircea_popescu: your girl got earrings yes ? [18:25]
trinque: blow up berlin, later, no hole [18:25]
mircea_popescu: also trinque's. gotta use large enough dishes. [18:25]
asciilifeform: trinque: uniquely bad example, ww1+2 put a very permanent, i suspect, hole through 'euro civilization' [18:25]
asciilifeform: that will not likely close, it'll be pushing up the flowers. [18:25]
mircea_popescu: just like the mongols did. [18:26]
asciilifeform: it'll close strictly in the 'hunchback will straighten in his grave' sense. [18:26]
mircea_popescu: europe is eternal, unlike africa, americas etc. a lot like china, actually. [18:26]
asciilifeform: well the geological europe aint going anywhere, no [18:26]
trinque: asciilifeform: same sloshing of equilibrium when you kill those bacteria, depending on which you got [18:27]
asciilifeform: 'отряд не заметил потери бойца' (tm) (r) [18:27]
asciilifeform: somehow i suspect that when mircea_popescu gets into an airplane, he would like to find that it has triply- or higher- redundant avionics system, rather than 'oh it is redundant because if this one goes down, there will be another plane, with some other bloke in it, some other day, dun worry.' [18:29]
mircea_popescu: lel [18:29]
mircea_popescu: yes, mp so likes. but this is special pleading. mp also likes women, bacteria dishes, boys in this order. [18:30]
asciilifeform: and yes, stalin famously uttered the sage wisdom, 'we ain't got any nonreplaceable people here' [18:30]
asciilifeform: (which sadly was not so, he turned out... nonreplaceable, himself.) [18:30]
mircea_popescu: nobody with a name is replaceable. this follows from the definitions. [18:30]
asciilifeform: (i wonder if stevejobs ever claimed 'we ain't got any nonreplaceables') [18:31]
mircea_popescu: "why did you put the label on the jar, mr rutherford ?" "to distinguish it from another jar." [18:31]
mircea_popescu: "does that mean the other jar couldn't then replace this one ?" "that's EXACTLY what it means!" [18:31]
asciilifeform: y'know, many folx name comps/autos/rifles/etc. [18:31]
asciilifeform: still fungibles. [18:32]
mircea_popescu: not according to the many folks. [18:32]
asciilifeform: 'one time we got lost in the woods, and i was afraid that i would have to eat Tippy. then we were rescued, and i put Tippy back into the fridge, next to the other sandwiches.' [18:32]
mircea_popescu: "i don't give a shit about rutherford's labels" dun reduce to "there were none" except in your own frame. [18:32]
asciilifeform: (i forget, where) [18:32]
mircea_popescu: lol [18:32]
mircea_popescu: sounds like bbs to me. [18:32]
asciilifeform: somewhere. i found it on a chalkboard, in uni. [18:33]
mircea_popescu: gosh golly, "pushing the envelope" was such a quaint affair in 1985. [18:33]
shinohai: !~later tell BingoBoingo [18:38]
jhvh1: shinohai: The operation succeeded. [18:38]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes et al : g5 is valuable , on top of other reasons, to test 'bigendian' behaviours of various proggies. [18:44]
asciilifeform: ( anyone here tried trb on bigendian ? i -- have not ) [18:45]
ben_vulpes: not yet [18:50]
* trinque tried, got segfault upon running the binary [18:51]
trinque: didn't yet turn up why [18:51]
* trinque bbl [18:53]
deedbot: << Qntra - Buttfunex Diversifying Bespoke "Butt Fun" Offerings While Walking Away From BTC [18:57]
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> 'extruded product' << You know, the most consistently high quality American products of the day appear to be made by "Rubbermaid Commercial Products" (not to be confused with Rubbermaid Consumer Products), best trashcans! [18:57]
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> and possibly BingoBoingo . << Interested in machines, but have not acquired herd of yet [18:58]
ben_vulpes: shinohai: i saw that and laughed uproariously [19:00]
ben_vulpes: WHERE ARE THE TRB TOKENS, EH? [19:00]
ben_vulpes: dipsharts [19:00]
shinohai: We can trade on forks that don't even exist yet! [19:00]
ben_vulpes: yeah well everyone is wising up to the fact that bcc/bcu are rotten to the cire [19:01]
ben_vulpes: core [19:01]
ben_vulpes: finally [19:01]
shinohai: Ba dumm tiss ( *rotten to the CORE*) [19:01]
ben_vulpes: unrelatedly, is there a "nodictionaries" for russian? [19:17]
ben_vulpes: !!up lulcoinz [19:21]
deedbot: lulcoinz voiced for 30 minutes. [19:21]
ben_vulpes: come ye with lultithes or lultidings? [19:22]
shinohai: In more "We desperately want to be like trilema" news: [19:22]
lulcoinz: so do you guys think there will actually be a hard fork anytime soon? [19:24]
lulcoinz: just praying nothing happens and BU along with segwit die [19:25]
ben_vulpes: lulcoinz: why pray? [19:25]
lulcoinz: well not really pray, "hope" would be more accurate [19:25]
lulcoinz: i'm not the religious type, i'm more agnostic [19:26]
ben_vulpes: (given how time, statists, and physics work, more phorks are nearly inevitable) [19:26]
ben_vulpes: same q though, why "hope"? [19:26]
lulcoinz: if there is a god, I don't think he gives a shit my (or anyone elses) prayers :) [19:26]
ben_vulpes: no but seriously, why even bother hoping? run a trb node, insulate yourself from the retardation. [19:27]
lulcoinz: my understanding is this group doesn't really support segwit or BU [19:27]
lulcoinz: what is a trb node (sorry for my ignorance) [19:28]
shinohai: lulcoinz: [19:28]
lulcoinz: trb specifically (I know what a btc node is) [19:28]
ben_vulpes: yeah ~right. segwit, aka "blockchains that don't validate" isn't a thing, and "bitcoin unlimited" wtf is that even [19:28]
ben_vulpes: trb is "the real bitcoin" [19:28]
ben_vulpes: the 0.5.3 codebase, dug out of the ground, polished and oiled into ~usability [19:28]
asciilifeform: lulcoinz: it's the bitcoin you used in 2011. ~21,000 lines, and shrinking. ( and no 'headers-first' pseudo-verification idiocy, no leveldb, no p2sh, no githubism, no dns, no glibc, various other 'noes'. large collection of exquisite noes.) [19:32]
shinohai: Just bitches and noes. [19:32]
asciilifeform: no memory leaks, either (there's fragging, and it needs ~4GB to run, but will stay within the 4GB , indefinitely. ) [19:33]
lulcoinz: sounds good to me [19:33]
lulcoinz: do you guys have good doc on getting into the wot etc [19:33]
ben_vulpes: lulcoinz: consider running a fully-validated node [19:33]
ben_vulpes: fully-validating [19:33]
ben_vulpes: lulcoinz: [19:34]
shinohai: See also: [19:34]
lulcoinz: awesome, thank you [19:34]
ben_vulpes: ohey trinque i know you're busy but you can link to transactions in mimisbrunnr now: [19:35]
asciilifeform: << wassat [19:35]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-20 23:17 ben_vulpes: unrelatedly, is there a "nodictionaries" for russian? [19:35]
shinohai: neato ben_vulpes [19:35]
ben_vulpes: shinohai: ty [19:36]
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: interlinear latin translations [19:36]
* shinohai goes to work fiddling with jhvh1 to add this functionality [19:36]
ben_vulpes: with user-adjustable derp knob [19:36]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: y'mean translit ? [19:36]
asciilifeform: [19:36]
asciilifeform: ^ www-based gizmo [19:37]
asciilifeform: also midnight commander does it by default [19:37]
asciilifeform: (if you view orc txt on a box set to ascii) [19:37]
asciilifeform: and possibly elsewhere [19:37]
ben_vulpes: whoa, midnight commander does *translation*? [19:37]
ben_vulpes: i thought that was like a file browser or some such [19:37]
asciilifeform: transliteration ben_vulpes [19:37]
ben_vulpes: aaaaa [19:37]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: it's much moar than 'file browser' [19:37]
asciilifeform: on most days i spend ~= time in it, as in emacs. [19:38]
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: no, not 'translit', translate [19:38]
asciilifeform: ( emacs -- and ~unfixably -- has few useful SINGLE-KEY commands ) [19:38]
ben_vulpes: oh come now, just switch over to evil-mode [19:38]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: ah i thought you wanted translit. [19:38]
ben_vulpes: nono, trans/late/ [19:38]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: when i say single-key -- i mean single motherfucking F-key. [19:39]
asciilifeform: not 2, not 3, not 4. [19:39]
asciilifeform: 1. [19:39]
ben_vulpes: i kind of don't care how to pronounce the shit, reading far more important to me now [19:39]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: google has the only vaguely-usable one afaik. [19:39]
ben_vulpes: once i have a grasp on sentences, grammar, i can probably get pronounciation with a few hours of teevee [19:39]
* shinohai also likes how mc lets you browse contents of tar.gz archives before unpacking .... [19:41]
asciilifeform: shinohai: knows how to ftp, sftp, diff directories, 1,001 other things, and extensible. [19:42]
asciilifeform: sorta like 'norton' was in ye olde msdos dayz. [19:42]
asciilifeform: but for adults. [19:42]
shinohai: It's far better than Norton commander was imho [19:42]
asciilifeform: noshit [19:42]
asciilifeform: extract for me, in ordinary shell, from a .rar inside a .tar.gz inside a .zip, JUST THE files that differ from a subdir inside a .zip in a certain .rar. and copy to a freshly stood up box with NOTHING but bash/sshd on it. [19:43]
asciilifeform: in midnight that's roughly 8 seconds' work. [19:43]
asciilifeform: and with 0 page-rufffling, rtfm, googlage. [19:43]
ben_vulpes: only because you've already read the fucking manual! [19:44]
asciilifeform: oh and then search for certain hex string in one of selfsame files. [19:44]
asciilifeform: 2 seconds. [19:44]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: the 'rtfm' consists of reading three or so lines, saying which f-key does which. [19:44]
ben_vulpes: > .rar inside a .tar.gz inside a .zip [19:44]
ben_vulpes: no [19:44]
ben_vulpes: i go yell at whoever sent me that garbage [19:44]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: 'who sent the garbage' is, in my case, a malware author. [19:45]
asciilifeform: go, yell. [19:45]
ben_vulpes: well if you muck about in the dumps of civilization a rad suit is probably a good idea [19:45]
asciilifeform: or, alternatively, a 20 y.o. archive from simtel. [19:45]
asciilifeform: or myself 15 yrs ago. [19:45]
asciilifeform: or. [19:45]
asciilifeform: this is just an example, of 1 among 1,001 tools in the toolbox. [19:46]
asciilifeform: (many of the ones on my box, are custom, sorta like folx are accustomed to doing in emacs) [19:46]
asciilifeform: anyway it isn't a 'replacement for emacs', and serious emacsists do sometimes spit, 'i can do this from TRAMP' etc. [19:47]
asciilifeform: good -- for them. [19:47]
phf: i misspelled something in btcbase search and was surprised when it didn't "search instead for ..." me. [20:12]
asciilifeform: lul [20:12]
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo afaik that's a chinese brand. [20:21]
mircea_popescu: !~later tell framedragger hey log ded ? [20:25]
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: The operation succeeded. [20:25]
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: his client disconnected earlier [20:25]
mircea_popescu: ah k [20:26]
ben_vulpes: there is always [20:26]
mircea_popescu: << actually "segwit" is supported, and fully implemented / working without bugs since what, 2015 ? look up [20:26]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-20 23:27 lulcoinz: my understanding is this group doesn't really support segwit or BU [20:26]
ben_vulpes: and also phf's actually-useful btcbase [20:26]
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes yeah i have like one per machine over here :D [20:27]
mircea_popescu: redundancy ftw, it's so luxurious. who the fuck else has shit like this, not even lizard captains. [20:27]
mircea_popescu: in the same vein : new dork (at least i've not seen him before) with apparent delusions of "management" at place i normally frequent. i tell him to bring me a dozen empanadas para llevar. he... didn't understand, at first, then on second pass told me to go to "the different counter", then got invited to go search for his mother's cunt, which rendered him apoplectic. /me went to other place down the street he also frequents, g [20:29]
mircea_popescu: ot his empanadas as well as open invite from waitress who's apparently been waiting for moths for the one time mp is not with cunt in tow. [20:29]
phf: << we had a thread where mp's said something like "i don't have rsi because i'm literate". [20:39]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-20 23:38 asciilifeform: ( emacs -- and ~unfixably -- has few useful SINGLE-KEY commands ) [20:39]
phf: i've been reflecting on the implications of that point with one of the effects that i stopped using emacs (a while ago). [20:39]
mircea_popescu: o.O [20:39]
asciilifeform: ooh hey phf retired from massaging bits, or wat [20:40]
asciilifeform: ( re: quit emacs ) [20:40]
* mircea_popescu subscribes to this thread, curios how it'll go. [20:40]
phf: well, i realized that environment micro optimizations are mostly a waste of time, and that something like emacs is one of the worst offenders. [20:44]
asciilifeform: ( unrelatedly, phf , the ivory2 appears to be back on auction ) [20:45]
asciilifeform: phf: this is not untrue, but i'll be damned if i EVER consider hitting a key 70times in a row, a legitimate part of life, ever. [20:46]
asciilifeform: ( see 'hungry arrow keys' thread etc ) [20:46]
asciilifeform: and i've no interest in not having SLIME [20:46]
asciilifeform: and yes emacs is a glue trap. [20:47]
mircea_popescu: there is this very specific failure mode whereby computerists who for naive reasons decide "they don't play computer games" end up game-ifying their daily life. it is way the fuck better to level up a warlock than to dick around "saving" typing and growing a crop of tomatoes on your balcony. [20:48]
phf: ^ [20:48]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the ancients did write 'moderation in all things', neh. [20:48]
mircea_popescu: they do. [20:48]
mircea_popescu: but rare indeed is the computerhead who will sit down and compare the time "improvement" takes to implement CORRECTLY, AND MAINTAIN vs the time it actually saves. [20:49]
asciilifeform: fwiw i turn a knob or two in .emacs , every other year or so. [20:49]
phf: this whole "literate" point is not so much about specific technology, as it is about rebalancing the tree from the root, so to speak, wherein it's sometimes ok to push the key 70 times [20:49]
asciilifeform: usually when i end up picking up entirely new system ( most recently -- ada ) [20:49]
mircea_popescu: i know some clits i don't mind pushing 707 times. [20:49]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: dunno about yours, on my kbd there is not a clit.. [20:50]
asciilifeform: repetitive mechanical work -- suxx. [20:50]
mircea_popescu: come along now an' let's play that strange game where errything's a key! [20:50]
asciilifeform: 'where is the anykey?!!1' [20:51]
mircea_popescu: i wish someone here made a garage band so i could write lyrics for them. [20:51]
asciilifeform: 'аникей' [20:51]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform pity nobody named his daughter that. [20:51]
mircea_popescu: "i'm annie" "from anna ?" "no, from аникей" [20:51]
asciilifeform: lol!! [20:52]
ben_vulpes: this is a subset of the "programmers are bad at cost/benefit evaluation" thread [20:52]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: they ~have~ to be [20:53]
mircea_popescu: more like, "whores are bad at finding non-slippery solutions." [20:53]
asciilifeform: think. [20:53]
mircea_popescu: carpenter is likely to make you wooden dam. [20:53]
ben_vulpes: for example, somehow dropbox let its engineers haul off and do an open-sores python reimplementation [20:53]
ben_vulpes: which they since abandoned [20:53]
ben_vulpes: because "go back to your fucking cubicle and file a purchase request for seven more servers" [20:53]
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes do you know what is the real because there ? [20:53]
ben_vulpes: no, please to illuminate [20:54]
mircea_popescu: it all relies on the almighthy IDF. investor dream fuel. dja know what that is ? [20:54]
mircea_popescu: it's exactly like nightmare fuel in media. a substance that makes people with money and no clue imagine happy thoughts. [20:54]
mircea_popescu: large companies without a point or purpose adrift in economic anomie essentialy become IDF packagers. [20:54]
asciilifeform: naggum called it, [20:55]
asciilifeform: 'imponade' [20:55]
mircea_popescu: and the hope is that who knows, maybe the dorks come back with some idf. in any case, up until they return, the thread can be deemed as idf as-is. [20:55]
mircea_popescu: "we have engineers doing things|! " "What ?" "we don't actually know." "here's some money then." [20:55]
ben_vulpes: ick [20:55]
mircea_popescu: ick but tru. [20:55]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform imponade, not bad. [20:56]
mircea_popescu: like the lemonade of the proverbial lemonade stand that's always used as example in theoretical economics. [20:56]
ben_vulpes: ick and squick [20:56]
* ben_vulpes off [20:56]
asciilifeform: [20:57]
asciilifeform: phf: i'm still curious re with what you replaced emacs. [20:59]
asciilifeform: really, closing parens and indenting by hand..? [20:59]
mircea_popescu: You may, and some do, complain that there is no super-compact expression of some particular problems, but what you completely miss is that the _penalty_ for thinking "outside of the box" or outside of the "intended" uses of the language is _also_ absent. [21:00]
mircea_popescu: excellently put. [21:00]
mircea_popescu: anyway, the difference between imponade and the idf is that the imponade relies on failure of those imponed upon to evaluate whereas the idf relies on the fundamental problem of the cost of evaluation -- sometimes it's huge. [21:02]
mircea_popescu: ie, it's one thing to tell yokel your apple's a mango, it's another thing to claim your apple cures sun eclypse. [21:03]
mircea_popescu: in practice though, this theoretical distinction carries little importance. [21:04]
shinohai: <<< Amen [21:04]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-21 00:49 mircea_popescu: i know some clits i don't mind pushing 707 times. [21:04]
mircea_popescu: (though it's a welcome exercise, in passing, to consider HOW would you rigurously prove an apple doesn't cure sun eclipse.) [21:04]
asciilifeform: if cost of evaluation were huge because the activity consisted of travel to uncharted asteroids -- that'd be one thing. [21:04]
mircea_popescu: well it claims to :) [21:05]
asciilifeform: but it consists of pumping liquishit from one vessel to another. [21:05]
mircea_popescu: hence all the "uncharted lands" references all the time. [21:05]
asciilifeform: ( the other, obligatory naggum re subj, , i.e. 'is your work expensive and uncertain because you drill 5km into ocean floor [21:07]
asciilifeform: . [21:07]
asciilifeform: ? [21:07]
asciilifeform: .. or because idiot?' [21:07]
mircea_popescu: the matrices one ? [21:07]
mircea_popescu: aha. [21:07]
* mircea_popescu regrets naggum. [21:07]
asciilifeform: what means 'regrets x' [21:08]
mircea_popescu: that i'd rather he had a sane woman to take him to the hospital. [21:08]
asciilifeform: or does that construct work in ro [21:09]
asciilifeform: aah ok. [21:09]
mircea_popescu: i thought it worked in english. [21:09]
asciilifeform: notafaik [21:09]
mircea_popescu: hm. [21:09]
asciilifeform: but i'm not an inglischman [21:09]
mircea_popescu: well ... it's been in the logs, so it works nao. [21:09]
mircea_popescu: it doesn't really work in romanian. i mean, a common honorific for the deceased is "regretatul" ie, the regretted. but that's about as far as that goes. [21:10]
mircea_popescu: i have nfi why regrets - noun wouldn't work in a language where regrets - verb in perfective aspect works out of the box and without glue. in romanian it needs glue to work, and you can say "hey, no glue for noun so you can't do that!" [21:12]
phf: asciilifeform: with nothing, that's the beauty of it. [21:15]
asciilifeform: aah so cocaineyacht. [21:15]
phf: btcbase still runs on slime, but it's a 30 line el file that lives in the repo itself. [21:15]
asciilifeform: congrats phf [21:15]
phf: i sometimes load it to do a macro transform on a particularly gnarly file [21:15]
phf: but otherwise i use whatever. it's sort of like, if you don't have a hammer, you don't go pounding nails when you have nothing btter to do [21:15]
asciilifeform: harmful habits are not the hammer's fault. [21:16]
asciilifeform: 'i picked nose, but cured now, cut off it and fingers' [21:17]
asciilifeform: phf: with what didja replace , e.g., 'who-calls' ? with grep ? [21:18]
asciilifeform: with telepathy? [21:18]
asciilifeform: enjoying typing out by hand 'least-negative-normalized-single-float' twenty times a day? [21:20]
phf: who-calls ~what~? ~when~? why am i even asking that question? we're discussing a tool outside of specific problem, which is precisely "harmful habits" manifestation [21:20]
asciilifeform: phf knows very well what is 'who-calls' [21:21]
asciilifeform: in fact discussing specific domain here, as example, commonlisp. [21:21]
phf: [21:22]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-21 01:15 phf: btcbase still runs on slime, but it's a 30 line el file that lives in the repo itself. [21:22]
asciilifeform: suppose you write a ~new~ proggy, phf [21:22]
asciilifeform: or reading old smbx clim crud, etc [21:22]
asciilifeform: really, wont miss 'who-calls' ? [21:22]
mircea_popescu: "but the hammer's so nice" "dude we're discussing a tool by itself" "don't you think it's nice ?" [21:24]
asciilifeform: no. [21:24]
asciilifeform: 'power saws are decadence, hand saw suffices to build anything in existence' 'how much sawing do you , personally, do?' 'stop discussing tool out of context!!1' [21:25]
mircea_popescu: let's put it this way : if your program is compelx enough you forgot who-calls and it is not actually addressed to a large enough problem space, maybe it's time to review why you're writing it. [21:25]
mircea_popescu: right back to the whole "but my balcony tomato plantation!11!" [21:26]
ben_vulpes: hey now, who-calls is extremely-useful for archaeological work [21:26]
mircea_popescu: yes, i understand that man drowning in complexishit may find various straws to help himself keep breather holes above level for a week longer. [21:27]
mircea_popescu: still, wouldn'\t it be kinda nice if he sat himself on chair instead of all that ? [21:27]
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes yes, but this means you're doing archeological work. why are you ? [21:27]
asciilifeform: bulldozer that amplifies my intelligence and makes such thing as, e.g., unravelling trb, possible, is not 'balcony tomato'. [21:27]
ben_vulpes: blender, $fiatoloa scam, etc? [21:27]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i don't imagine he's proposing you don't use whatever tool you want for whatever job. [21:27]
mircea_popescu: what he's proposing is that it's a tad ridiculous to keep, like every honest taxpaying, they took our jerbs murican, shiny toolkit in garage, that cost 5k to buy and used a total of 400 watts in its entire life [21:28]
mircea_popescu: doing a $.45 fix. [21:28]
phf: i'm not sure where to even start with alf's vitriol, but i've seen this conversations enough to not even try [21:28]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i have allergy to 'Simplicity! Is Best! Simple life, Simple toolz!!!' folx, who, on examination, are able to carry along in he delusion strictly because they do ~0 nontrivial work with own hands. [21:28]
mircea_popescu: mmm. [21:29]
mircea_popescu: allergy noted in the grand list of allergies. [21:29]
asciilifeform: ( there is nothing wrong with getting successful to cocaineyacht stage of life. but i like whenfolx are ~honest~ about it ) [21:29]
ben_vulpes: to play priest of heterodoxy for a moment, what is wrong with grep in place of `who-calls`, works for any-lang [21:29]
asciilifeform: and not pretend that 'rusty spoon is just as good as power saw '. [21:30]
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes that you gotta remember the corner cases. [21:30]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: ooda loop. [21:30]
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: perhaps it is sin of too-much-emacs, but this is not an interruption to my loop [21:30]
asciilifeform: moarpowerforyou [21:31]
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: expand on 'corner cases'? [21:31]
asciilifeform: for folx who spent entire life shitting into holes in earth -- that is also not unpleasant, and does not lengthen their oodaloop. [21:31]
phf: ben_vulpes: we're not actually discussing various relative merritts of various who calls, because we don't have any problem in mind. for trb clion's who-calls is above and beyond anything emacs provides, for genera's clim ~genera~ is way better at who calls, etc. [21:31]
asciilifeform: phf: genera in my mind is 'an emacs' [21:32]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform listen, suppose you run your car over a pothole. what do you do now ? [21:32]
asciilifeform: the adult emacs. [21:32]
mircea_popescu: because your answer is "nothing", ima say you're at cocaineyacht stage!!11 [21:32]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: explain [21:32]
mircea_popescu: well, shouldn't you have a barrel of asphalt in your car, fix the hole ? serious people go about with barrel of asphalt tied to car.\ [21:33]
asciilifeform: 'pothole' means what in mircea_popescu's mind's eye, cubic metre pit ? [21:33]
mircea_popescu: no, pothole, 15 cm deep. [21:33]
asciilifeform: if there were one of these per six metres of road, i'd consider a tracked vehicle. [21:33]
mircea_popescu: could you possibly also consider yopu know, just going to a different town ? [21:34]
asciilifeform: there isn't a different town. [21:34]
mircea_popescu: but there is a different vehicle. [21:34]
asciilifeform: aha. [21:34]
mircea_popescu: yet there also is the BEST IN CLASS asphalt barrel with car attacher! [21:34]
mircea_popescu: solutions come in a tree. [21:34]
mircea_popescu: and you're not married to any particular node. [21:35]
asciilifeform: i don't, note, take issue with folx who quit programming. i aspire to do it one day, myself. [21:35]
mircea_popescu: some people (known as you know, road workers) have very strong preferences re the asphalt barrelatron. [21:35]
mircea_popescu: this is fine. [21:35]
mircea_popescu: it is also not universally interesting. [21:35]
asciilifeform: but it is disingenuous to say 'i founda Zen Method of programming' [21:35]
mircea_popescu: it is also not safe to say "they're the only ones doing roadwork". etc. [21:35]
asciilifeform: which under the surface, consists of not actually writing nontrivial programs. [21:36]
phf: i didn't actually quit programming, omg. this is reminiscent of the whisperers thread, where a strawman, once chosen, because the only possible direction of conversation [21:36]
phf: *becomes [21:36]
mircea_popescu: he should work for the washpo huh. [21:36]
asciilifeform: well phf did say 'i replaced $tool-of-trade with Nothing' [21:38]
asciilifeform: what am i to guess , this means. [21:38]
mircea_popescu: i dunno. [21:38]
asciilifeform: 'i sold my hammer' 'i suppose you are not a carpenter no moar?' [21:39]
mircea_popescu: who says you gotta guess somthing ? [21:39]
mircea_popescu: you can be a carpenter without a hammer. [21:39]
asciilifeform: could. and so i asked him, because i'd like to see how carpenter goes along without hammer. maybe he found how to convince nails to go into wood by themselves.. [21:40]
mircea_popescu: or maybe hammers aren't as important as all that. [21:41]
asciilifeform: well sure, maybe 'carpenter' now means a fella who blows houses from plastic, in one shot. [21:41]
asciilifeform: how'd i know. hence -- asked. [21:41]
mircea_popescu: your asking has very little in common with asking and a lot in common with "i'll just make up some random shit within 0.1 s and challenge everyone to prove it wrong" [21:42]
ben_vulpes: nails are the worst metaphorkical pick. [21:42]
mircea_popescu: which... well, let's say it generally fails to capture the interest of females, or males older than about 16. [21:42]
asciilifeform: quite srsly, i'd like to know : phf now uses what? 'ed' ? does he still write programs for money ? in commonlisp? in selfsame 'ed' ? [21:45]
asciilifeform: i will take off my hat, if it is so. promise. [21:45]
ben_vulpes: who says phf works in cl? [21:46]
mircea_popescu: iirc, phf himself. [21:46]
asciilifeform: iirc. [21:46]
asciilifeform: i could bewrong. [21:46]
ben_vulpes: irdifferently. [21:46]
ben_vulpes: java and postgres sit in my banks. [21:47]
mircea_popescu: o.O [21:47]
ben_vulpes: and for these, why emacs? [21:47]
mircea_popescu: !#s from:phf java [21:47]
a111: 14 results for "from:phf java", [21:47]
mircea_popescu: !#s from:phf common lisp [21:47]
a111: 60 results for "from:phf common lisp", [21:47]
asciilifeform: he did mention a java editor [21:47]
ben_vulpes: yes, jetbrains [21:47]
asciilifeform: long ago, asciilifeform did some hard time in a java salt mine, liked editor 'idea' [21:48]
ben_vulpes: from which the other rec which i took derives, "appcode" [21:48]
phf: there's no point to answering that question, because it's irrelevant to my original point [21:48]
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes at no poin he says this, your banks need ecc! [21:48]
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: perhaps the interstitial spaces carry meaning for me [21:49]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: there are several systems for which emacs support is poor/laughable/nonexistent, actually [21:49]
ben_vulpes: but i leave this thread [21:49]
phf: but in structural carpentry by the way they don't use nails, drills and screws. (i have experience with that one, and last time i did a build i don't think we even had a hammer) [21:49]
ben_vulpes: now [21:49]
mircea_popescu: phf i suspect your ride having been identified as possibly gay, you're now to defend your manhood in ARMED COMBAT! [21:49]
asciilifeform: lul [21:49]
mircea_popescu: and yes, everyone but asciilifeform is aware hammer-carpentry is ~windows-computing but anyway. [21:50]
asciilifeform: the funny/sad bit is that i loathe emacs. [21:50]
mircea_popescu: "oh, that's what we had at home" "good for you." [21:50]
asciilifeform: it is a manacle. [21:50]
mircea_popescu: fucking TERRIBLE idea, "oh, let's shove a hard item through the panes, that'll show 'em!" [21:51]
asciilifeform: phf: really, no screws? [21:52]
mircea_popescu: "won't shit get randomly bent and displaced and you only get the residual friction anyway ?" "YEAH!!!" [21:52]
asciilifeform: how to attach the pieces? ultrasonic weld? [21:52]
mircea_popescu: screws != nails eh. [21:52]
phf: asciilifeform: ~screws~ not nails [21:52]
asciilifeform: ah hmm looks like i misread phf's 'nails, drills, and screws' [21:53]
phf: and screws are fastened using a drill, not hammer [21:53]
asciilifeform: i was intrigued, 'no screws! ze phyootoor' [21:53]
mircea_popescu: no screws ~= structural cuts and glue. [21:53]
mircea_popescu: all those trapezoid profiles. [21:53]
phf: you'd think ascii would know that one, traditional ru construction method [21:54]
asciilifeform: aha [21:54]
mircea_popescu: traditional everywhere people knew about wood. [21:54]
mircea_popescu: nails really are the idiot's solution to carpentry. [21:54]
asciilifeform: or even america 19th c, 'log cabin' [21:54]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu this is entirely tru [21:54]
trinque: phf already answered the IDE question in another thread [21:55]
trinque: [21:55]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-11 21:36 phf: that's another reason, why i don't for example, "hack my python with vim like a real hacker". give me the filthiest, most feature rich IDE, where i can just push spacebar to get half of my scaffolding, or whatever kids these days [21:55]
mircea_popescu: ftr also not used in crucifixions. [21:55]
asciilifeform: i found it trinque [21:55]
mircea_popescu: for all the "original cross nail" afficionados [21:55]
trinque: seems pretty reasonable java vogons are gonna make the "best" vogonator [21:55]
trinque: I dunno about the commercial lisp IDE situation but wouldn't surprise me if they're pretty ok [21:56]
asciilifeform: trinque: i still missed 'hungry backspace', zero-mouse mechanics, and not having to use ibm keystrokes . [21:56]
trinque: might have to do with which end of the pig you find most repellant [21:56]
asciilifeform: (when i used 'idea', 'mathematica' other very spiffy nonemacsen specialized to tasks ) [21:56]
asciilifeform: *and other [21:56]
trinque: I'm over here with emacs as window manager, shit you not. [21:57]
mircea_popescu: come to think labout it, the extensive keybindings was the part i enjoyed least about derive. [21:57]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: hah, so not only asciilifeform hated that ui ! [21:57]
mircea_popescu: ~everyone i knew using it for srs first composed a string for paper. [21:57]
mircea_popescu: i think i mentioned old dood doing actual mm paper acre sized work at some point. [21:58]
mircea_popescu: even. [21:58]
* trinque caps workflow improvements to a with-coffee endeavor, avoids [21:58]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-21 00:44 phf: well, i realized that environment micro optimizations are mostly a waste of time, and that something like emacs is one of the worst offenders. [21:58]
asciilifeform: ( interestingly, the physical, calculatorized pocket derive, had stellar ui, joy to use ) [21:58]
mircea_popescu: i never had that one i dont think [21:58]
phf: trinque: i've been there, i used exwm for a couple of months. there's no end to the rabbit hole when it's made out of bits, is my point [21:58]
trinque: oh sure [21:59]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: softwarehouse inc. was bought by ti, who 'calculatorized' it, there's an old thread [21:59]
trinque: I'm tempted to fiddle with midnight commander after asciilifeform's mention [21:59]
mircea_popescu: ah ah. myeah. [21:59]
trinque: midnight commander [21:59]
trinque: ah shit this isn't google [21:59]
mircea_popescu: trinque it was part of my survival kit for "gotta use a windows system" [21:59]
mircea_popescu: fortunately, this hasn't been a thing in a decade by now. [21:59]
mircea_popescu: totalcommander also good. [22:00]
asciilifeform: ^gui only iirc [22:00]
mircea_popescu: xtreegold best, but we digress. [22:00]
mircea_popescu: !#d xtg [22:00]
mircea_popescu: !#s xtg [22:01]
a111: 2 results for "xtg", [22:01]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: there were many decent clones of the dos nc : e.g., 'volkov commander' [22:01]
mircea_popescu: wow unmentioned ? [22:01]
mircea_popescu: well, let's say it did most of my work back in the day. [22:01]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it was described in a trilema [22:01]
mircea_popescu: ah ah [22:01]
asciilifeform: and yeah , an nc-like proggy can make life on a shell-less os almost tolerable. but (as i described in earlier thread) that is not the only use. [22:02]
mircea_popescu: shit was ~windows 3.1, except actually worked, was actually useful and took like 300kb. but otherwise - exactly identical. unsurprisingly, didn't take off. [22:02]
mircea_popescu: (even had mouse! in like 1990!) [22:03]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform dos wasn't altogether shell-less though. about par with ash or w/e they had at the time. [22:04]
asciilifeform: no grep, no sed -- not shell. [22:05]
asciilifeform: toy. [22:05]
mircea_popescu: no pipe, no shell. that much. pretty sure there was an awkatron as a command. [22:05]
asciilifeform: ( and yes, i wrote kilometres of .bat, like everybody else ) [22:05]
mircea_popescu: but you couldn't really go | which ... yeah. ruins it. [22:05]
asciilifeform: the humble | is 99% of what unix even has going for it. [22:06]
mircea_popescu: xtg had built in hex view! and shit. [22:06]
mircea_popescu: yep. exactly true. [22:06]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: nc also, hexview [22:07]
mircea_popescu: they made biosen with asm debuggers built in, back then, too! [22:07]
asciilifeform: i use mc's -- daily [22:07]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: on pc?! [22:07]
mircea_popescu: i used to use it daily when i used real mode computors for sure. [22:07]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform aha. 286 to boot. [22:07]
asciilifeform: who made ? [22:07]
mircea_popescu: i don't recall right off. [22:08]
mircea_popescu: but my jaw dropped when i was shown the wonder. [22:08]
* asciilifeform never had the pleasure of encountering x86 with rom debugger. [22:08]
phf: i briefly used emacs and clisp in dos. as poor man lisp machine as it gets [22:08]
* asciilifeform had 'xlisp' [22:08]
asciilifeform: it was neato [22:08]
* mircea_popescu goes on dig for wtf that was, turns up... pfaster-286 [22:10]
mircea_popescu: dja know this wtf ? advertised in oct 1985 pc mag [22:10]
mircea_popescu: < item [22:20]
* asciilifeform flips through linked thing, nostalgiates [22:35]
asciilifeform: pg. 35 also interesting [22:35]
mircea_popescu: yeah remember when these were actually worth reading ? [22:36]
asciilifeform: 'IBM PC Creator Dies. DALLAS--Philip D. "Don" Estridge, 47, IBM vice president of manufacturing and former head of the Entry Systems Division, which developed the IBM PC, was among the six IBM employees killed in the August 2 Delta Air Lines crash at the Dallas/Fort Worth airport...' [22:37]
asciilifeform: 1985. [22:37]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: yeah, as late as mid-90s even. [22:37]
mircea_popescu: yeah. [22:37]
phf: ru had computerra, which was quite decent in 98 or so, went downhill after [22:39]
mircea_popescu: romania had literal samizdat items. [22:39]
mircea_popescu: maybe a thousand different, most with <12 editions. [22:39]
mircea_popescu: two thirds on a4 paper. [22:39]
mircea_popescu: virtually all dot-matrixed [22:41]
mircea_popescu: basically people'd steal whatever govt office supplies, make a... well i guess a sort of blog, really. 90s. [22:42]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is interesting, in the american 'computing' mags of the time, to see the ads, how the pictured people are dressed, even [22:42]
asciilifeform: quite different planet from today. [22:42]
mircea_popescu: yeah. [22:43]
mircea_popescu: it wasn't ok top be black, then [22:43]
asciilifeform: in other types of leisure reading, 'scientific american' (i recently bought half a century's worth of'em, monster crate) also same types of people [22:43]
asciilifeform: not only 'not black' but they are dressed like 'stereotypical capitalist devil', sharp suit, tie, sitting in respectable-looking study, or in office with obvious subordinates, etc [22:44]
mircea_popescu: right. [22:45]
asciilifeform: they are creatures of the 'vhs america'. [22:45]
mircea_popescu: the non-inclusive, non-minority friendly us. america. [22:45]
asciilifeform: p.37: 'Market competitors wasted no time in knocking Microsoft's long awaited Windows environment... ...Microsoft, however, says that the criticisms ranged from unfair to incorrect. Says company spokesperson Marty Taucher "We changed the product significantly so it would support existing applications. Allegations that it does not, as (Quarterdeck president) Therese Myers says, and that you need to 'step aside' to support other progra [22:57]
asciilifeform: ms, are flat wrong." ' [22:57]
asciilifeform: lulzy. [22:57]
mircea_popescu: aha, back when the shitshow could still have been killed. [22:58]
asciilifeform: aha, if not for... a plane crash here , an idiot there. [22:58]
mircea_popescu: aha. [22:58]
mircea_popescu: and a universal if foolish unawareness of the republic. [22:58]
mircea_popescu: "why should some thigns be destroyed. live and let live!!11" [22:59]
mircea_popescu: idjits. [22:59]
asciilifeform: poor savages, thought that only single bodies could get cancers. [22:59]
mircea_popescu: you know, at the time the samovar wasn't yet a train [22:59]
mircea_popescu: "oh, big whoop, why oppress the niggers! not like i don't have my nice suit or my sane office" [23:00]
asciilifeform: funnily enough, it was very much a train, but was still called 'ibm' train. [23:00]
asciilifeform: ( if we're still speaking of microshitization ) [23:00]
asciilifeform: but -- yes. [23:00]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform observe that at the tme phoenix could make... cpu competitor board., [23:00]
mircea_popescu: and... did. [23:00]
asciilifeform: p.96 , moar lulz [23:03]
asciilifeform: 'Computer paranoia is inspired by an industry aggressive enough to liken internal competition to war and incompetent enough to ship faulty, dangerous products.' [23:04]
phf: mode ##lmi +b foo@bar [23:09]
phf: err [23:09]
BingoBoingo: There's two distinct very different things under the brand. American version's msot notable product is "Brute" trashcan [23:29]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-21 00:21 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo afaik that's a chinese brand. [23:29]
BingoBoingo: << Have seem before. Mostly from the Aged. [23:36]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-21 01:09 mircea_popescu: i thought it worked in english. [23:36]
BingoBoingo: *seen [23:56]
Category: Logs
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