Forum logs for 16 Mar 2017

Monday, 16 March, Year 12 d.Tr. | Author:
pete_dushenski: in geert wilders news, his pvv (freedom) party is looking like it'll grab the second most seats in the 150-seat dutch parliament with... 19. crazy fractured system. italy / israel level. then again, these figures are "according to exit polls" which are worth as much as hillary "looking past the election". should be a lively night if all the dutch nate silvers get similarly thumped. [00:18]
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all [01:03]
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 1245.64, vol: 4927.83216688 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 1234.884, vol: 7233.92993 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 1237.3, vol: 20023.39124335 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 1150.295892, vol: 2884.93650000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 1235.001, vol: 3420.12491942 | Volume-weighted last average: 1231.18823237 [01:03]
BingoBoingo: Butt Trust In The Market [01:03]
davout: <<< pl0x to kindly point out [04:40]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-15 16:12 asciilifeform: also if you have a consistent empty 4GB of memory, you can apply my cache patch (not yet an official vpatch, but it is a 1liner, ups bdb's cache to max) [04:40]
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski yeah, bothared people that one. [07:27]
mircea_popescu: <--> [07:30]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-16 03:55 pete_dushenski: speaking of verbotten ajakalates, d-tx jessica farrar has just proposed a draft law that would see "emissions outside of a woman's vagina, or created outside of a health or medical facility" to carry a $100 fine [07:30]
deedbot: << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 34085713 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <> ' ( US) [07:38]
mircea_popescu: lolwut [07:38]
asciilifeform: in other noose : >> march 14: 'Amazon has removed three books that deny the Holocaust ... Robert Rozett, a senior official at Yad Vashem, Israel’s official memorial to Holocaust victims, wrote to Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos last month calling for immediate action specifically regarding the three books. Rozett calls the move a “positive first step” which shows Amazon listens to Jewish groups that protest Amaz [09:50]
asciilifeform: on’s sale of these offensive materials.' [09:50]
asciilifeform: 'World Jewish Congress CEO Robert Singer thanked Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos for his action on Thursday . “We are also gratified to note Amazon removed numerous other Holocaust-denying items from its website. ...' [09:51]
asciilifeform: in yet-other but not wholly unrelated noose, >> mr.t's revised immigration order canceled by judge in... hawaii. [09:54]
asciilifeform: on -- get this -- 'separation of church and state' grounds. [09:55]
asciilifeform: didjaknow. [09:55]
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo et al ^ qntra ? [09:55]
mircea_popescu: hardly. [10:15]
asciilifeform: hardly which ? [10:16]
mircea_popescu: the idle posturing of anon femstate hardly worth the mention. [10:17]
asciilifeform: mr.t did put himself in the buggery pose when he proclaimed intent to 'comply with judicial orders' or how was it. [10:19]
asciilifeform: so far no uppity judges on meathooks, afaik. [10:19]
mircea_popescu: eh, so called judge, so called state, interest wanes eventually. [10:20]
mircea_popescu: but yes, obnoxious indian on meathook. you missed last week ? [10:20]
asciilifeform: afaik every potus fires the previous one's prosecutors [10:21]
asciilifeform: and for some reason this one took ~2 mo. to flush [10:21]
mircea_popescu: the correct move is chaser piece about the situation of an unemployable 40something ex-da who can't find work now rather than indulging reboot of idle posturing [10:21]
mircea_popescu: we're not interested in pushing the "oh, here's a replacement cockroach". rather, insistent footage of cockroach corpses./ [10:21]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i am by now convinced that once so-called judge corpses start floating on the east river your retort will be "so what, everyone dies eventuallyt and everything ends up in a river eventually". which is fine and great for you, but makes for HORRIBLE qntra. because it's so indescribably fucking stupid, and because it's so indescribably fucking stupid in the exact manner that produced usg. [10:23]
mircea_popescu: in any case, the republican narrative is "bitcoin classic failed", not "let's talk about the latest reboot of the idiot franchise". an' thats what qntra does. [10:24]
asciilifeform: all i got is the view from inside the anthill. where mr.t's buttons are in fact not connected to anything, because apparently even the lowliest judicial bureaucrat can 'suspend' all of his decrees for whatever fictional 'reasons'. [10:24]
mircea_popescu: mno. [10:24]
mircea_popescu: all you got is the view FROM INSIDE YOUR HEAD. because if i push you re anthill it'll immediately become obvious the last time you picked up a girl i nthe street was never, and similarily for any other quanta of interaction. [10:25]
mircea_popescu: evidently portion of that head has serious issues. [10:25]
asciilifeform: i dun recall ever claiming to pick up anything whatsoever in the street.. [10:26]
asciilifeform: ( aside from coins on sidewalk ) [10:26]
mircea_popescu: so how are you participating in the anthill ? gimme something. you... go on the subway and talk to people ? use cabs, talk to the drivers ? work in an office ? take the sluts to the campus and have them make out with random girls ? what, exactly, is the light illuminating this anthill ? [10:27]
asciilifeform: cabs. and at one point worked in dire shitholes of various descriptions. but what point is there describing any of it, mircea_popescu will still insist that 'none of it describes the Actual anthill, you gotta have a private intel agency of 10,001 cutthroat sluts to know Reality!11' [10:29]
mircea_popescu: understand how consequences work : you can't at the same time "oh, nobody even told be item from my field of interest" and "oh i see from anthill". either you do or you don't, and broadly speaking i guess you don't. [10:29]
mircea_popescu: hey, it stands to reason that poll of 10 is not as good as poll of 10k neh ? [10:30]
asciilifeform: if mircea_popescu had said 'you won't learn the mechanics of su collapse by reading pravda or decrees of politburo' i would grudgingly agree [10:30]
mircea_popescu: happens to als obe true [10:31]
mircea_popescu: now, if one ~already understood~ the mechanics, then one could have a lot of fun, and in the process also produce a lot of interesting commentary by reviewing ther pravda. [10:31]
mircea_popescu: but before, when one's trying to make predictions ? [10:31]
mircea_popescu: tell you waht : each one of the loser intellectual class, the people whose daughters ended up powering the first wave of fat-based cuntindustrialization (where you hydrolize people to get economy going, you know) were ALL avid readers of the pravda [10:32]
mircea_popescu: and in the same exact manner, "cynical" and "woke" "independent minds". [10:32]
mircea_popescu: this independent mind trick dun work so well in vacuums, most people aren't nearly imaginative enough to pull it off. [10:32]
asciilifeform: i won't argue ' asciilifeform knows Moar Fact from reading völkischer beobachter than mircea_popescu from spy network ', that'd be riotously stupid [10:33]
asciilifeform: but mircea_popescu is stingy re the concretes, and asciilifeform likes concretes. [10:33]
mircea_popescu: also not the main thrust here. [10:33]
mircea_popescu: again : the loser intellectual class of the 1990s su, those people who would have had the means if only they had the sense, those people who were in fact smarter, and in fact more cultivated, and in all relevant aspects save one more capable than the aparatchicks who stole the show [10:33]
mircea_popescu: all have this in common : they read and commented the pravda. [10:33]
mircea_popescu: bitterly, but distantly. ironically, if you will. self-awaredly "skeptical". this methodology does not work. it anti-works. [10:34]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: there was a name for this, 'kitchen intellectuals' [10:36]
mircea_popescu: yes, well... [10:38]
mircea_popescu: it dun work. why would i have qntra do it again ? i know it doesn't work. [10:38]
mircea_popescu: fucking female state doesn't get to set the agenda for the discussion. [10:39]
asciilifeform: this was actually what was in my head when qntra first appeared, 'why do this' [10:39]
asciilifeform: asciilifeform for instance went for years reading ~no noose at all. [10:39]
asciilifeform: 'female state' will go away when physically disassembled, not by effort of folx talking, for and against. [10:41]
mircea_popescu: has nothing to do whatsoever with "talking for or against". [10:41]
asciilifeform: has to do with the observation re kitchen intellectuals [10:41]
asciilifeform: or 'resistance through culture' in mircea_popesculandia [10:41]
asciilifeform: the folx who had 0 to do with disassembling su [10:41]
mircea_popescu: the ~only point of "organised female resistance" is that it de facto constitutes a lulzcow herd. they can be milked for lulz. that is the only utility, from obama to the last famished "evangelist" out there. [10:42]
mircea_popescu: and no, no physical dissassembly required. the moment the ~only response "worried woman" encounters in household is one thin layer of mockery backed by an endless layer of physical punishment, the su not only goes away but actually becomes impossible. [10:42]
mircea_popescu: which is how that transition worked, and how all other transitions worked. [10:43]
mircea_popescu: the path from empire to republic traverses the river of worry, and the bridge is made of qntra and qntra-likes. [10:43]
asciilifeform: this is not unlike to say that 'if the only response tumour cell encounters in the organism is an army of killer tcells, there can be no cancer.' well yes. [10:43]
mircea_popescu: which don't discuss "worry, for or against". they discuss "worry, lulz" and other things. [10:43]
mircea_popescu: yes. [10:43]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: not related, but gotta ask before mircea_popescu goes back to sleep, (believe or not) i just today noticed that duplicate coinbases actually existed. [10:48]
asciilifeform: and are cemented into the 'grandfather's pistol' [10:48]
asciilifeform: and that replacement of 'spent' tx is even permitted still. [10:48]
mircea_popescu: when's the oldest you found ? [10:49]
asciilifeform: november 2010 [10:49]
mircea_popescu: they in principle became impossible at some point once people figured out this hole. [10:49]
asciilifeform: this is not an original discovery, there's a magic case for it in trb [10:50]
mircea_popescu: yes. [10:50]
asciilifeform: but it only applies the rule after certain timestamp of block [10:50]
mircea_popescu: dating from about mid 2010 if memory serves. [10:50]
asciilifeform: and the 'unless those are already completely spent' thing substantially complicates, if not prevents, a sane indexing scheme [10:51]
mircea_popescu: prototype. [10:51]
asciilifeform: so if you make a 'tx that has same hash as ANY known tx to date which != this tx' you have broken the pistol, forked from the old semantics. [10:52]
asciilifeform: * is invalid [10:52]
asciilifeform: if you reject incoming tx (in a block , in particular) that overwrites old 'spent' one, you have broken the pistol. [10:53]
asciilifeform: << the routine in question. [10:54]
asciilifeform: the 'unless spent' is riotously idiotic, it means that a txid does NOT, even today, guarantee to uniquely identify a tx. [10:56]
asciilifeform: (making the id entirely worthless, and dragging in the worst of both worlds, you now ALSO have to remember the position. why not ONLY store the position ?!) [10:56]
mircea_popescu: yup [10:58]
mircea_popescu: this is at the core of the argument in favour of a trb-i implementation. [10:58]
mircea_popescu: and what is meant when people such as me say bitcoin's a pos and what it was meant when i told the power ranger tards to fix it or get killed years ago [10:58]
asciilifeform: it doesn't look to be fixable. [10:59]
asciilifeform: and i don't mean trb [10:59]
asciilifeform: i mean, the algos. [10:59]
mircea_popescu: hm ? [11:00]
asciilifeform: the way i read ln. 968, miners TODAY are apparently more than welcome to create a duplicate coinbase, so long as it is a dupe of a ~spent~ coinbase. [11:00]
asciilifeform: (968 - 985) [11:00]
mircea_popescu: there's no way to avoid collisions. [11:00]
asciilifeform: there's 1 way -- if you send in an anything that collides with a previous ANYTHING, you are told to fuck off. [11:01]
mircea_popescu: other than the hope "they won't be many" (recall the naive oh, if we need we just add more digits after decimal ? hurr. you fucking don't.) [11:01]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that means there's a cap on total txn bitcoin will ever process [11:01]
mircea_popescu: and it's the fuck lower than 32bits. [11:01]
asciilifeform: sha256 gives you... 256 neh [11:01]
asciilifeform: where do you get 'lower than 32' [11:01]
mircea_popescu: well you'rte going to start getting collisions way before you used up every possible txid [11:02]
asciilifeform: there are not 256bits of seconds left of sun , even. [11:02]
mircea_popescu: still not a very pretty scheme. [11:03]
asciilifeform: will become a detectable problem somewhere around 128b's worth. also quite likely long past expiration date of planet3. [11:03]
asciilifeform: but let's for sake of argument suppose that : sooner. it is STILL moronic to STORE COLLIDING KEYS IN DB omfg [11:04]
asciilifeform: it isn't ever a solution, to anything ! [11:04]
asciilifeform: keys motherfucking unique, ruat caelum. [11:05]
mircea_popescu: im not arguing THAT lel. [11:05]
* mircea_popescu points out wholly disinterestedly at this point that the eponymous mpfhf allows for variable length output, and could be made to do say log (blockheight) bits! [11:05]
asciilifeform: it, and keccak, and probably other schemes [11:06]
asciilifeform: the neat thing being, that on Collision Day, you can retro-stretch all of the previous hashes [11:06]
mircea_popescu: now, i do propose that it is actually better to have undefined-sized indexen than to have colliding txn or "limited to x bits" txn count. [11:06]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform quite. [11:07]
asciilifeform: there is no such thing as an O(1) undefined-size index. [11:07]
asciilifeform: and it is NOT acceptable to have non-O(1) indexing. [11:07]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it'd be defined for periods. [11:07]
mircea_popescu: it's 64 bits until year 13500 and 128 bits from there on until year 1mn etc [11:07]
mircea_popescu: you know, just like unixtime works. [11:07]
asciilifeform: these, work [11:07]
mircea_popescu: yeah. [11:08]
asciilifeform: 'see 8th bit for whether you have ONE MOAR BYTE of crud coming your way' does not. [11:08]
mircea_popescu: im not arguing THAT lel. [11:08]
asciilifeform: right. [11:08]
asciilifeform: but possibly now mircea_popescu sees what asciilifeform meant by 'trbi is much EASIER problem than working-trb' [11:08]
mircea_popescu: oh, i saw. [11:09]
asciilifeform: also it is not clear to me that trb ever... worked, in the customary sense of the word. what, for instance, happens if you actually carry out the -- entirely legal per all known btctrons -- replacement of a ~spent~ coinbase tx ? [11:10]
asciilifeform: now you have mutilated the history. entirely legally. [11:10]
mircea_popescu: o btw asciilifeform [11:12]
mircea_popescu: i suppose that was a hook intended for some kind of anonimization thatnever made it in. [11:13]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: got it ! [11:23]
asciilifeform: sooo per my reckoning, you can have sane-trb-indexer, but now every tx gotta have a field for 'was replaced?' -- and if bit is set, indexer goes and looks at the collision table, the previous lookup now 'didn't count' [11:28]
mircea_popescu: aha. [11:28]
mircea_popescu: in other news, camembert, lomo horneado + boiled corn on the cobb, primo breakfast a++ would breakfast again [11:33]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: also it is not clear to me that reorgs actually handle this case [11:58]
asciilifeform: a reorg will remove the overwritten tx entirely [11:59]
mircea_popescu: if it's not in the new chain you mean ? [11:59]
asciilifeform: aha [11:59]
mod6: hm. [12:01]
mircea_popescu: well yes. [12:01]
mircea_popescu: do you mean, "it removes transaction entirely but it doesn't nor could correcty undo the damage to the ball of yarn" ? [12:02]
asciilifeform: aha [12:02]
mircea_popescu: quite. [12:02]
asciilifeform: it removes it from ~index~ [12:02]
asciilifeform: now the proceeds of the old, spent coinbase, can no longer be spent [12:02]
asciilifeform: because their parent coinbase is no longer in tx index [12:02]
asciilifeform: they appear now to have dropped from mars. [12:02]
mircea_popescu: wait, how would a later tx make it in. [12:03]
asciilifeform: which later tx [12:03]
mircea_popescu: the one whose parent coinbase you discuss. [12:04]
asciilifeform: let's work example. say, for sake of argument, block 500,000 has coinbase B 500,001 - coinbase C, C!=B 500,002. [12:04]
mircea_popescu: aite [12:05]
asciilifeform: 500,001 contains a tx T1, that spent B. [12:05]
asciilifeform: now 500,002 can have coinbase B again. [12:06]
asciilifeform: now picture that this 3-block sequence gets orphaned. [12:06]
mircea_popescu: go on [12:07]
asciilifeform: actually no [12:07]
asciilifeform: let's picture that 500,001 and 500,002 end up orphaned, strictly. [12:07]
mircea_popescu: so restate. and also spare me specifications that c ain't b, obviously it isn't, if it were you'd call it b. [12:08]
asciilifeform: aite, let's from beginning: [12:08]
asciilifeform: block 500,000 has coinbase B 500,001 - coinbase C, 500,002 : B again. now 500,001 and 500,002 end up orphaned. the reorg fires. [12:09]
asciilifeform: B is removed from the tx index. [12:09]
asciilifeform: now coinbase of 500,000 is missing from the index, and is unspendable. [12:09]
mircea_popescu: this is however not how it works in practice [12:09]
asciilifeform: what did i miss [12:09]
mircea_popescu: i suspect there's some crutch code somewhere. [12:09]
asciilifeform: i read the code, again and again, and it would seem like 968-984 is the whole of the crutch. and in classic nsa style, the comment misdirects the reader to think that the 'bug' was 'fixed'. [12:10]
asciilifeform: whereas it was not, but merely papered over. [12:10]
mircea_popescu: does it regenerate the index on reorg firing ? [12:11]
asciilifeform: well, lessee : : [12:11]
asciilifeform: they get queued for removal [12:15]
asciilifeform: eventually we end up here : [12:15]
asciilifeform: which it where it gets interesting, because the 'can fail' doesn't seem to exist in the code: [12:16]
asciilifeform: [12:17]
asciilifeform: ^ do you see a check for previous existence here, mircea_popescu ? because i don't... [12:17]
asciilifeform: ( called from ) [12:17]
mircea_popescu: not right off. [12:18]
asciilifeform: even the comment on ln 756-7 is nonsensical, 'This is only possible if this transaction was completely spent, so erasing it would be a no-op anway.' in what universe is erasing the ancestor of a valid tx a 'no-op' ? [12:20]
asciilifeform: i suppose in the one where nobody revalidates the chain, ever ? [12:20]
mircea_popescu: gavin wasn't very high on chain validation hurr. [12:21]
asciilifeform: it gets worse: [12:28]
asciilifeform: say i walk in with a tx that spends the output of d5d27987d2a3dfc724e359870c6644b40e497bdc0589a033220fe15429d88599 [12:29]
asciilifeform: now which one did i spend !!! [12:29]
asciilifeform: [12:29]
asciilifeform: or [12:29]
asciilifeform: [12:29]
asciilifeform: ? [12:29]
asciilifeform: they're both unspent ! [12:29]
asciilifeform: what's the actual balance of 16va6NxJrMGe5d2LP6wUzuVnzBBoKQZKom anyway [12:30]
asciilifeform: is there even a consistent way to calculate it ? [12:30]
asciilifeform: the heathens think it to be 50 btc : [12:31]
asciilifeform: ( on what basis ? ) [12:31]
asciilifeform: ( or, say, and ) [12:34]
asciilifeform: did we have this thread before ? ( doesn't seem to turn up ) [12:35]
asciilifeform: !#s 91812 [12:36]
a111: 1 result for "91812", [12:36]
asciilifeform: !#s 91842 [12:36]
a111: 1 result for "91842", [12:36]
asciilifeform: !#s 91722 [12:36]
a111: 1 result for "91722", [12:36]
asciilifeform: !#s 91880 [12:36]
a111: 1 result for "91880", [12:36]
asciilifeform: ^ apparently not. [12:36]
asciilifeform: unless it was in ye olde otc or whatever folx inhabited in the olden dayz. [12:36]
asciilifeform: another tickle : what'll happen if someone were to mine a block that 1) has a coinbase equal to one of these magical coinbases + 2 ) spends same ? [12:48]
asciilifeform: as i understand, it will validate, in trb. [12:48]
asciilifeform: .. or, hm, maybe not [12:49]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: revisiting the boojum: block 500,000 has coinbase B. it was spent, many cities are built on the outputs, time passes, world forgets. yeas later, dr. evil mines a block ~600,000~ , now again having B. ( he does not need to know any keys for this, can just copy the tx. ) then he sets his minetron to start again from 599,999. succeeds in orphaning block 600,000 . reorg fires. B now gets removed from the index db ! and a [13:09]
asciilifeform: ll of its descendants ! [13:09]
asciilifeform: world burns in nuclear forkocalypse. [13:09]
mircea_popescu: he'd be doing this by himself as block 60 (really, why all the 0s ? you need them for something ?) which doublespends block 50 won't be accepted by eg me. [13:10]
asciilifeform: the 0s represent 'future' [13:10]
asciilifeform: vs 'current' or past. but regardless [13:10]
mircea_popescu: yes yes [13:10]
asciilifeform: it doesn't doublespend 50* [13:11]
asciilifeform: 50* was spent, and per trb rules, garbagecollected from the index [13:11]
asciilifeform: it's a brand-new, legit coinbase, with same hash. entirely permitted. [13:11]
asciilifeform: then when it gets orphaned, it also nukes the original. [13:11]
mircea_popescu: from the index. [13:12]
asciilifeform: correct [13:12]
mircea_popescu: and then he wants to re-introduce original. but he can't. because doublespent. [13:12]
asciilifeform: there are no doublespends involved, just a massive bomb [13:12]
asciilifeform: trb as it exists , permits a new tx having same hash as old, so long as old one was spent. [13:13]
asciilifeform: so nobody needs to introduce a double-spend for this horror to work. [13:13]
asciilifeform: the result is an arbitrarily long chain of beheaded tx [13:13]
asciilifeform: because their parent coinbase gets zapped from the index illegitimately [13:14]
mircea_popescu: mkay. [13:14]
asciilifeform: now for the practical consequence. what this means, as far as i can tell, is that there can exist -- may already exist -- chains of tx in trb, that cannot be walked back to a coinbase. [13:17]
mircea_popescu: let's see the practical consequence where you simmer the fuck down and stop oversignalling by a factor of fifty trillion ONCE!!! in your life! one ounce work ten bushels sky is falling good god. [13:18]
mircea_popescu: so. coinbase C1 part of tx T1 is included in block 1. [13:18]
mircea_popescu: later on the output of T1 is spent by T2 in block 2 [13:18]
asciilifeform: ignoring the maturity rule, but sure [13:19]
mircea_popescu: even later on, coinbase C2 with same hash as C1 is introduced in block 3. [13:19]
mircea_popescu: then, block 3 is orphaned. this wipes any mention of C1/C2's hash from index. [13:19]
asciilifeform: aha [13:19]
mircea_popescu: should dr evil attempt to re-mine C1 as part of T3 in block 4, this will fail, because T1 still exists in blockchain [13:19]
mircea_popescu: index or no index. [13:19]
asciilifeform: t1 exists, but is now 'martian', parentless [13:20]
mircea_popescu: the ~exact~ ~specific~ ~pinpoint-for-me-in-lxr-or-bust~ mechanism of this is not specified. [13:20]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it's an absence, not a presence, of code, how do i point to an absence ? [13:20]
mircea_popescu: well, you can either try to replicate this, if you wish, irl, or else show a case in blockchain where it happened, after 2011, or else simmer down and keep digging. [13:22]
mircea_popescu: you got a good point, but it's just part of the story as-is. [13:22]
mircea_popescu: not that i'm proposing the insanity is sane. [13:22]
asciilifeform: probably will have to replicate it on a toy planet. [13:22]
asciilifeform: (solipsist miner.) [13:22]
mircea_popescu: you're welcome to do it any of the three ways, but rly nao. [13:22]
asciilifeform: is likely the easiest demo. [13:22]
asciilifeform: ( would have to fudge the difficulty on the toy planet, or alternatively remove the time parameter from , but otherwise doable ) [13:24]
mircea_popescu: altogether not a bad idea to make a set of test chains as per the tsting discussion last week. this can surely be both part of it and the incentive to do it. [13:25]
asciilifeform: iirc ben_vulpes set up a similar experiment ( lan miner ) a month or so ago, but i dun recall what came of it [13:25]
mircea_popescu: in other news, [13:26]
asciilifeform: the imho most tickling part re the hypothesis, is that the symptom would not necessarily leave any permanent sign in the mainchain blockchain [13:26]
asciilifeform: it would instead manifest as one or more chains of tx that a trb node -- a particular one, that saw the particular magic orphan -- mysteriously does not want to spend the outputs of. [13:27]
asciilifeform: (will not accept a block where they are spent) [13:27]
asciilifeform: this could, potentially, account for some wedges observed in the wild. in theory. [13:27]
mircea_popescu: yes, but it was never verified in practice. [13:29]
asciilifeform: not afaik. [13:29]
asciilifeform: very much Open Problem [13:30]
mircea_popescu: now, the cost to mine a same-hash tx that is also meaningful other than garbage is not trivial. [13:30]
asciilifeform: you forgo the mannafromheaven from mining the block, aha [13:30]
asciilifeform: but it isn't hard to do otherwise, just recycle old coinbase [13:31]
asciilifeform: (take the tx verbatim) [13:31]
mircea_popescu: that will not wash because doublespent. [13:31]
asciilifeform: nope. you take one that's been spent. [13:31]
asciilifeform: coinbases all have input 0 [13:31]
mircea_popescu: one that's been spent has been spent. ergo is a doublespend. [13:31]
asciilifeform: and are exempt thereby from 'doublespent because input was spent' rule [13:31]
asciilifeform: 0 is never spent omfg [13:31]
mircea_popescu: i'm sorry, you're trying to recreate a coinbase as in, miner subsidy ? [13:32]
asciilifeform: aha, the first tx in a block [13:32]
asciilifeform: the one that has input 0 [13:32]
asciilifeform: and its script -- ignored. [13:32]
asciilifeform: whole thread was about these. [13:33]
mircea_popescu: okay. so basically you want a miner to mine twice to the same address. right ? [13:33]
asciilifeform: correct [13:33]
asciilifeform: as in the 2 linked examples on mimisbrunnr [13:33]
mircea_popescu: and this will ALWAYS resut in coinbase in this sense with same hash. [13:33]
asciilifeform: correct [13:33]
mircea_popescu: and also has happened >10k times to date. [13:33]
asciilifeform: see the links, it will become very clear [13:33]
mircea_popescu: now. a block with these gets reorged. ALSO happened 100s of times to date. [13:33]
mircea_popescu: so ? [13:33]
asciilifeform: so you end up with a parentless tx in the index. [13:34]
mircea_popescu: good for you. [13:34]
mircea_popescu: except no, you don't, not irl. [13:34]
asciilifeform: show me why not ? [13:34]
mircea_popescu: you're a fine gent, standing on a pile of "because so and so, the sky is falling." "well... i don't see it fallen" "show me why not!" [13:34]
asciilifeform: it doesn't fall, as such [13:35]
asciilifeform: you just have a 'i can't believe it's not bitcoin' rather than bitcoin. [13:35]
asciilifeform: can't show provenance for all unspents. [13:35]
mircea_popescu: so of these tens of thousands of same-hash coinbases, which were hundreds if not thousands of times reorged, which is the parentless coinbase ? [13:35]
davout: <<< C2 == C1 here? [13:35]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-16 17:19 mircea_popescu: even later on, coinbase C2 with same hash as C1 is introduced in block 3. [13:35]
asciilifeform: ^ this is a question that can be answered exactly , using a patched trb [13:35]
asciilifeform: it is going on the conveyor mircea_popescu . [13:35]
mircea_popescu: aite. [13:36]
asciilifeform: btw this thread is unpleasantly reminiscent of , e.g., asciilifeform's conversations with his elderly parents , re thebezzle. 'look outside, sky not fallen, not moved a centimetre, you idiot' [13:37]
asciilifeform: what's a bezzle if not a sky held up by invisible column of farts and nobody-would-think-of-plane-as-rocket. [13:38]
mircea_popescu: let's not get ahead of ourselves. [13:38]
davout: mircea_popescu: seems coinbase needs same address but also same extraNonce to compute to same hash, you probably overestimate the actual txid collision count [13:39]
mircea_popescu: davout possibly. [13:39]
mircea_popescu: unlike elderly parents, was giving benefit of teh theory. [13:39]
asciilifeform: << this is pretty great, prb turns 91842/91880 into a special case ! [13:46]
asciilifeform: but 0 mention of any other pairs [13:46]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform actually look up that bip30 thing, it's related. [13:47]
asciilifeform: they cut out the time parameter, and replaced with this [13:47]
asciilifeform: so a prb user can be fucked during sync, so long as the fuckblock fed to him isn't numbered 91842 or 91880 ... [13:47]
mircea_popescu: it's actually how the whole "not match earlier nonspent txn" got added. the author is the death row inmate peter wuille. [13:48]
mircea_popescu: [13:48]
asciilifeform: << found it earlier, prior to thread, but the lulzy bit is that their 'solution' is not a solution [13:48]
asciilifeform: 'Fully-spent transactions are allowed to be duplicated in order not to hinder pruning at some point in the future. Not allowing any transaction to be duplicated would require evidence to be kept for each transaction ever made.' [13:49]
asciilifeform: ^ PRUNING [13:49]
asciilifeform: motherfuckers. [13:49]
asciilifeform: prune their ears, nose, arms, legs, cocks. [13:50]
asciilifeform: ling-chi. [13:50]
mircea_popescu: yeswell. [13:50]
asciilifeform: it's a textbook mircea_popescuan tv-raft. 'can't fix the problem, That Would Be Wrong, have a raft made of your tv to float on [13:51]
asciilifeform: astonishing how much retardation flows from this one little turd, the use of hashes (rather than positions) as tx pointers. [13:53]
asciilifeform: if you had to write, e.g., (91722,1,1) instead of (e3bf3d07d4b0375638d5f1db5255fe07ba2c4cb067cd81b84ee974b6585fb468, 1) to spend an output -- none of this would be a thing. [13:55]
davout: no more spending before confirmed then [13:58]
asciilifeform: davout: FUCK spendingbeforeconfirmed. [13:58]
asciilifeform: it is retarded and makes for 'orphanages' and O(N^2) verifications. [13:58]
asciilifeform: trb, i will note, already will not relay any attempt to spend anything not already in a block. [13:58]
davout: just saying, chill [13:59]
asciilifeform: unfortunately , per grandfather's pistol , a tx ~in~ a block can spend the output of another, in same block so verification of block tx is O(N^2) but the N is the count of tx in the block. [13:59]
davout: i'm not sure i grokked your 'casks' scheme, but if i understood what i did correctly positions would somehow be pre-allocated for transactions, making this possible again, right? [14:00]
asciilifeform: davout: it doesn't even require the cask scheme [14:00]
asciilifeform: you can do it with a system otherwise identical to traditional bitcoin [14:01]
asciilifeform: with the difference being, that you can ONLY refer to a position in an existing block, and never to a tx hash. [14:01]
asciilifeform: (which would only be calculated for the merkle root, and for no other purpose) [14:01]
davout: don't see how, as far as i know you can't craft a tx without providing the tx of its parents [14:01]
asciilifeform: ^ likewise it is unclear to me why to even have a merkle tree, and not hash the tx one after another. but that's a separate thread. [14:01]
asciilifeform: davout: right ! want to make a tx ? know the indices of the outputs you're using. [14:02]
asciilifeform: and yes that means they have to live in a block, that you're reasonably sure won't be orphaned. [14:02]
asciilifeform: tough cookies. [14:02]
trinque: seems like blocks because they're otherwise makework to have block reward in while empty [14:03]
davout: i don't particularly care, just wondering about "you can do it with a system otherwise identical to traditional bitcoin" [14:03]
asciilifeform: davout: you can ! [14:03]
asciilifeform: simply by not catering to the patently idiotic expectation of being able to spend the output of a tx that hasn't been mined yet. [14:03]
davout: you can't have this in bitcoin is all i'm saying [14:06]
asciilifeform: davout: definitionally not, bitcoin has marvels such as being able to annihilate a coinbase from tx index using a (local! nobody but your node has to see it) reorg. [14:07]
davout: as mentioned a few lines earlier in the log [14:07]
asciilifeform: because it was built by somebody who was dropped as a baby, and uses tx id as if it were guaranteed unique, then turns around and 'oops, they aren't, but it doesn't matter Because Reasons' [14:08]
davout: the lulzy part is actually this: [14:08]
davout: "let's not name bitcoin" [14:08]
asciilifeform: lol!! [14:09]
asciilifeform: where'd you dig this up, davout ? [14:09]
asciilifeform: 'midas money' srsly ? [14:09]
davout: i just click on random shit [14:10]
davout: see [14:10]
asciilifeform: looks like it describes exactly the scenario in this thread. and wuille sat down with his handler and asked, 'how do we 'solve' this but without actually solving it? hmm' [14:10]
asciilifeform: oh hah it was right there wasn't it. [14:11]
asciilifeform: lol [14:11]
asciilifeform: davout's eagle eye. [14:11]
davout: "Duplicate coinbases already exist in the Midas Money block chain." <<< fucking priceless [14:18]
asciilifeform: davout: as i understand, the attack described in 7th paragraph, with the transplanted tree, would still work today. [14:21]
asciilifeform: and wuille's thing does 0 against it. [14:22]
asciilifeform: in fact, studiously avoids doing anything. [14:22]
davout: it's very unclear to me [14:23]
davout: say there is a coinbase A in block 10 [14:23]
davout: same coinbase gets included in block 20 [14:23]
davout: block 20 gets reorg'd [14:23]
asciilifeform: if you can re-introduce an old coinbase -- which you can , if it has been spent, per trb rules -- you (or anyone else) can afterwards reintroduce any and all tx that had that coinbase as an input [14:23]
davout: coinbase A is now unspendable [14:23]
davout: wouldn't it consider the reintroduction as "already spent" ? [14:24]
asciilifeform: davout: correct, but only tells half of the story. it is unspendable in the sense that whoever mined the original A, is left to be sad. but A can be reintroduced now. and with it, all of the tx that used it as an input. [14:24]
asciilifeform: davout: it would not, because A is not 'marked spent', it does not exist in the index at all after the reorg. [14:25]
davout: there are two cases here [14:25]
asciilifeform: so it merely needs to get mined again. [14:25]
davout: hang on [14:25]
davout: in case where A was ~never~ spent, after a block containing its reintroduction gets reorg'd, it can't ~ever~ be spent [14:26]
davout: as i understand it, since it's removed from the index [14:26]
asciilifeform: davout: correct. and recall, reorg is a local, rather than global, phenomenon [14:26]
davout: but it's not clear to me how exactly this works when the first introduction of A was spent [14:26]
asciilifeform: my nodes, for instance, reorged in different places than mircea_popescu's [14:26]
davout: aha, right [14:26]
davout: forkatronic this is. [14:27]
asciilifeform: davout: per current trb rules (which , see earlier, is different from prb's ! even) A gotta be spent before it can reappear. [14:27]
davout: i didn't see this "has to be spent before reappear" [14:28]
asciilifeform: davout: [14:28]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-16 14:54 asciilifeform: << the routine in question. [14:28]
asciilifeform: davout: carefully read this routine and follow the calls all the way down, or this thread will make ~0 sense [14:29]
davout: aha, so this: is not actually possibru [14:30]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-16 18:26 davout: in case where A was ~never~ spent, after a block containing its reintroduction gets reorg'd, it can't ~ever~ be spent [14:30]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> davout: FUCK spendingbeforeconfirmed. << yeah pretty bad idea in retrospect. [14:30]
ben_vulpes: enTIREly unrelated, does anyone know how to get gpg to decrypt a message that is also signed, but to produce the signature in addition to saying that the signature is good? [14:41]
mircea_popescu: haha. [14:42]
mircea_popescu: there's reasons we don't like the sign-and-encrypt bs. [14:42]
* ben_vulpes sighs [14:43]
asciilifeform: natively gpg doesn't even ~carry~ the notion of 'for this set, Message, Signature, Pubkey, say if well-formed' [14:43]
asciilifeform: you can hack it into existence vtron-style [14:43]
asciilifeform: (nuke the keychain idiocy) [14:43]
mircea_popescu: you can extract packets but basically end up re=implementing gpg. [14:44]
ben_vulpes: coooool [14:45]
Framedragger: ben_vulpes: you want whole signature contents in cleartext? ya may be difficult with stock gpg. otherwise there's `--list-packets` [14:48]
ben_vulpes: Framedragger: dude how does --list-packets help at all [14:51]
mircea_popescu: lol [14:51]
ben_vulpes: i guess i can --verbose and get the mpi values? [14:52]
ben_vulpes: greeeaaaaat [14:52]
Framedragger: wasn't sure what you were trying to do, sorry - you want to first decrypt a message, *then* check signature - but check how beyond 'signature is good'? [14:52]
ben_vulpes: no i want to see the fucking signature [14:52]
ben_vulpes: checking could possibly be a thing after [14:52]
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes for bonus points, check if it checks beyond "short fp matches" [14:53]
ben_vulpes: fuck, buddy [14:54]
ben_vulpes: would really like that stateless verificator [14:54]
mircea_popescu: aha. [14:54]
davout: ben_vulpes: only a terrorist would want to see the signature [14:54]
danielpbarron: txt | clearsign | encrypt # but why?? [14:55]
ben_vulpes: danielpbarron: come again? [14:57]
mircea_popescu: he's just piling on you an' your sadness. [14:57]
ben_vulpes: i didn't understand his shovelful, is all [14:57]
trinque: he proposes stuffing the sausage in a sock [14:58]
ben_vulpes: in other modern obfuscutronix: [14:58]
mircea_popescu: that's not even a bad idea. [14:59]
mircea_popescu: #eulora ftw. [14:59]
danielpbarron: secret message in keys on the ground [15:00]
Framedragger: ben_vulpes: sorry for being obtuse, but if by 'show signature' you mean print signature in ascii-armored way, why can't you `echo 'foo' | gpg --clearsign > a.txt`, then `cat a.txt | gpg --encrypt --recipient recipient-username > b.bin`, then `gpg --decrypt b.bin`? (this assumes gpg is interactive and will ask for password, so best to break it into multiple commands) [15:01]
mircea_popescu: lel [15:01]
Framedragger: but i'm prob missing somthin [15:01]
mircea_popescu: Framedragger he just got a pile of encrypted-and-signed crap. how does he get message and signature now. [15:01]
danielpbarron: i really like the implied sig of the encrypt part of received message back to sender. that way neither party can hold signed material against the other in public [15:01]
mircea_popescu: a sort of ad-hoc !!v-ing i guess. works. [15:02]
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: ah ok, i guess the issue is that the sig is part of binary blob, need to convert it, etc, hrmh [15:04]
mircea_popescu: <mircea_popescu> you can extract packets but basically end up re=implementing gpg. [15:04]
ben_vulpes: Framedragger: what mircea_popescu said: [15:05]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-16 18:41 ben_vulpes: enTIREly unrelated, does anyone know how to get gpg to decrypt a message that is also signed, but to produce the signature in addition to saying that the signature is good? [15:05]
davout: in other GPG-related lulz, when I decided to give the kraken idiots a chance, i ticked the "Encrypt mail sent to me with GPG" and gave my key [15:05]
davout: and so I received my first deposit notification or whatever, which was indeed encrypted. [15:05]
* ben_vulpes on tenterhooks for punchline [15:07]
davout: it did not occur to these monkeys that somehow it might also make sense to ~not~ include a subject line reading "O HAI YOU HAZ X DEPOSIT KTHXBYE" [15:07]
ben_vulpes: bwahaha [15:07]
mircea_popescu: ahaha [15:11]
mircea_popescu: alf would like this story. [15:11]
ben_vulpes: danielpbarron: yeah, but falls apart if i want to hold onto a signed thing. [15:14]
ben_vulpes: don't get me wrong, responding in context is entirely adequate most of the time [15:15]
asciilifeform: << vintage lulzfest re 'bip30' [16:09]
mod6: <+davout> it did not occur to these monkeys that somehow it might also make sense to ~not~ include a subject line reading "O HAI YOU HAZ X DEPOSIT KTHXBYE" << lol, huuurrrr [16:10]
asciilifeform: 'The list of all used transactions isn't readily available, and once pruning shows up, it might not even exist at all. So, it only makes sense to compare the new coinbase to the list of transaction hashes that are unspent at the time ... ' << holy fuck the 1) idiocy 2) nobody challenged it, afaik [16:12]
asciilifeform: pruning for fucks sake. [16:12]
asciilifeform: srsly ? [16:12]
davout: as a naive question, what exactly is the problem with pruning? [16:13]
mircea_popescu: mpoe-pr didn't have "dev" talk on her list and who else read that shithole lol. [16:13]
davout: i see not being able to serve historical data to peers as the major one from where i stand [16:13]
mircea_popescu: davout in principle nothing in practice if you can't justify whence the coins came then what do you have [16:13]
asciilifeform: davout, mircea_popescu : a 'pruned' bitcoin ~= usd. [16:14]
mircea_popescu: "these coins were mined not printed, plox believe" ? [16:14]
asciilifeform: if you cannot show a coinbase origin for EVERY coin that ever existed, you have printolade. [16:14]
davout: your copy of the blockchain being personal i don't see any other problem than peer-service, if, and only if, you've validated it as validly producing the UTXO set you consider valid [16:14]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not in principle. see for instance [16:14]
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 16:56 mircea_popescu: but the correct trb-i might just as well end up this situation where block reward is 1mn bitcoin, and it dies within 1mn blocks. so all mining does is produce ~ a lease ~ on a chunk of bitcoin. and the value of old bitcoin is monotonically decreasing over their lifetime. [16:14]
mircea_popescu: davout nonsense. [16:15]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: demurraging coin fails the berlin wall test. [16:15]
asciilifeform: nobody in his right mind would use it , having any kind of choice. [16:15]
mircea_popescu: i'm not proposing the solution is acceptable. i am showing you that your OVERSTRONG STATEMENT is nonsense. [16:15]
mircea_popescu: the defense to something stupid isn't picking something else that's stupid to be yelled at top of lungs. [16:16]
asciilifeform: the solution whereby tx id is unique for all eternity, is not stupid. it is the Right Thing. [16:16]
mircea_popescu: that's entirely unrelated here. [16:16]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: even in your demurraging scheme , you would not thereby be able to safely recycle tx id. [16:18]
mircea_popescu: as to the direct question, a pruned chain may make sense, if someone came up with a way to do it sanely. this seems impossible on bitcoin-as-it-is, and perhaps unlikely in the general. [16:18]
asciilifeform: there is nor cannot be such a thing where a fortranesque '1 := 2' produces a consistent state. [16:18]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'd say that the idea is impossible in the general case. [16:18]
mircea_popescu: why ? [16:18]
asciilifeform: 'where did this money come from, how much exists in total' 'dunno, in the Great Pruning of 2050 the scrolls of the ancients were lost' [16:19]
davout: mircea_popescu: how is it nonsense if i have personnally verified the chain? [16:19]
mircea_popescu: it'd necessarily be a scheme with expiring coins, seems to me. [16:19]
asciilifeform: davout: what does 'verify' mean if you can't trace the coins from birth to current day ? [16:19]
mircea_popescu: davout because who the fuck are you and why do i have to take your word and if your house burns down what do you do. [16:19]
davout: i contend that verifying "once" is not that different from "verifying at will" [16:20]
mircea_popescu: why are you married ? [16:20]
trinque: if the whole net is trimming how am I with a new node going to verify once [16:20]
mircea_popescu: you verified her once amirite ? [16:20]
davout: mircea_popescu: nobody's asking you to trust someone on his word, to each his own chain copy [16:20]
trinque: gotten where? [16:21]
asciilifeform: ^ [16:21]
mircea_popescu: if you can't verify at will, you can't verify. [16:21]
davout: doesn't really matter where you get it from, as long as it verifies, you're not asking your connected peers for a wot identity, yet you take their data and verify it independently [16:24]
mircea_popescu: ... [16:24]
asciilifeform: davout: if you aren't storing the historical data, you are not a peer. you are a pseudonode. [16:24]
asciilifeform: that mooches off the network, while there still are actual nodes. [16:24]
davout: trinque: "if the whole net is trimming" <<< that seems like a valid objection to me [16:24]
* trinque erases his pending restatement of ^ [16:24]
trinque: lol [16:25]
mircea_popescu: i'm not even sure what the thought process is here, beyond "i don't want to store books because momstate makes libraries and oh, where did anything but cosmo go ?!" [16:25]
davout: asciilifeform: yeah, sure you're not serving peers the historical data, that's the single thing that seems very wrong with pruning, at least to me [16:25]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the thought process is that every clever kid wants to 'и рыбку съесть, и на хуй сесть' (tm) [16:25]
mircea_popescu: what data is there OTHER than "the historical data" ? [16:26]
mircea_popescu: this delusion of contextless existence, "i am me" hurr. [16:26]
asciilifeform: davout : mircea_popescu has it. your hypothetical 'pruned' utxo set is one bitflip away from ???. [16:26]
davout: google translate doesn't exactly help: "et le poisson à manger, et assis sur la bite" [16:26]
trinque: surely that wasn't 'every clever kid wants a fish to eat and a cock to sit upon' ? [16:27]
davout: asciilifeform: yes [16:27]
trinque: lol [16:27]
asciilifeform: trinque, no, 'to eat the fish AND to sit down on the cock' [16:27]
asciilifeform: i dunno of an engl. equivalent [16:27]
davout: "eat your cake, have it too"? [16:27]
asciilifeform: means wanting two individually-feasible but contradictory items [16:27]
asciilifeform: davout: i suppose that works [16:28]
trinque: aha [16:28]
asciilifeform: and 'i want to not have printolade exist' and 'i want not to have to buy new hdd every year' is such a pair. [16:28]
asciilifeform: there is no way to compress infinite string into finite space. [16:29]
mircea_popescu: no but consider. we currently have the situation where lucentio of pisa comes to padua, and inquires, "who owns these houses ?" and gets answer "x, y, z, k" and then inquires "oh yeah ? how do i know that ?" and gets answer, "because they bought from endless list tracing back to the dude that built them". [16:29]
mircea_popescu: and this situation you wish to replace with "because we say so, and if you don't like it ask another one of us". [16:29]
mircea_popescu: to which the only sane lucentio answer is "fu, i own them, and if you don't like it ask me." [16:30]
mircea_popescu: which is EXACTLY how it works : blockchain replacement now costs the whole weight of 400k blocks. [16:30]
mircea_popescu: blockchain replacement in a "pruned" scheme costs... whatever your pruning interval is. [16:30]
mircea_popescu: wtf. [16:30]
asciilifeform: proponents of 'pruning' want to replace 'the weight of 400k blocks' with a promisetronic 'checkpoint list'. which, i imagine the game plan is, to eventually include deviations from the usual proof of work, per gavin's unabashed declaration where 'WE say what the blocks were' [16:31]
asciilifeform: and ethertard-style proscriptions, etc. [16:31]
trinque: any "bitcoin on muh smart watchz" notions... things not capable of bitcoinating can connect to something that is, and ask [16:32]
trinque: over a private channel, even [16:32]
asciilifeform: it's precisely how all successful usgizations went -- slow, frogboiling replacement of a protocolic guarantee with a promisetronic one that is Just As Good (until it isn't, at which point you're long fucked) [16:34]
trinque: thing wants something like 50Gb per year couple of terabytes and you're good for a long time. [16:35]
davout: i'm merely looking for things i'd have missed apart from "being unable to serve peers historical data is a dealbreaker" [16:35]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i see no need for the subertfuge. if tomorrow thing is pruned to include "last 1k blocks" i'll just mine a 1k long chain in which everyone donates their coin to me, and bomb all the miners who refuse to mine on it. pie. [16:36]
trinque: whole thing doesn't even have to be SSD I routinely shuffle off chunks of bdb to platters [16:36]
davout: which is basically what everything that has been said regarding pruning boiled down to [16:36]
mircea_popescu: is clear enopugh [16:36]
trinque: davout: it goes the other way too [16:36]
trinque: say someone comes at you with blocks further back than your prune, and you are compelled to accept them by hash rate [16:37]
trinque: can't even say they ~ever~ were a part of bitcoin [16:37]
trinque: you have nothing to base it upon [16:37]
trinque: so you either ignore and maybe you're forked off to nowhere land, or you accept, and blindly [16:37]
davout: trinque: in that particular case what criterion would you refuse them upon if you had the full chain anyway? [16:38]
mircea_popescu: "txn don't match what i have" [16:39]
asciilifeform: davout: from where does this 'full chain' come from ? martians deliver it to your house ? [16:39]
asciilifeform: where was it in the meantime ? [16:39]
mircea_popescu: currently, blockchain is a ~whole~ story which has to check out. this can be verified. a partial story can never check out, and consequently can never be verified. [16:39]
trinque: davout: I'm saying spurious blocks claiming a very old parent block [16:39]
asciilifeform: davout: understand, anyone who runs a node that cannot or will not produce 'historical' record ~from genesis up to currentheight~ is an attacker. doing his own small bit to nail bitcoin . [16:40]
mircea_popescu: quite. [16:40]
asciilifeform: if you have enough of these, bitcoin per se becomes a very questionable proposition [16:40]
asciilifeform: and the concept of 'the' blockchain -- fades. [16:40]
asciilifeform: this was the subject of mircea_popescu's keccak article [16:41]
asciilifeform: which i thought was pretty clear [16:41]
trinque: number of nodes with full chain approaching number of nodes which can collude approaches Modern Banking (TM) [16:41]
asciilifeform: aha. [16:41]
asciilifeform: visaisation. [16:41]
mircea_popescu: bitcoin really doesn't have that many nodes active, nor has, for a while now. [16:42]
asciilifeform: once you learn how few nodes are actually nodes -- your bowels, will quiver. [16:43]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what'd the usg love more than for it to fade! to become "technologies"! to etc. [16:43]
asciilifeform: sorta the whole thrust of gavinism, neh [16:43]
asciilifeform: silently replace the protocol with promise. [16:44]
mircea_popescu: the "alternatives" narrative. a deep matter, going all the way to [16:44]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-10 14:50 Framedragger: i like my rc airplanes. "the will of history necessitates you to X" has a marx'ified hegelian vibe :p [16:44]
mircea_popescu: it's apparently the most deeply cherished delusion, of the young-man-and-his-biddle, that "alternatives!!1" [16:44]
mircea_popescu: there's no fucking alternatives. [16:44]
davout: asciilifeform: the "full chain" thing is simply in the context of asking a clarification to the question [16:44]
asciilifeform: davout: this is pretty fundamental material, imho, it is 'what separates us from the monkeys' (tm) [16:44]
mircea_popescu: davout you happy with teh responses ? [16:45]
mircea_popescu: young-man-and-his-binlde* i mean [16:45]
davout: mircea_popescu: not really because i'm not particularly interested in discussing pruning from a position where i'm somehow supposed to defend it [16:45]
mircea_popescu: but ? [16:45]
davout: trinque: basically your point, which seems absolutely valid, is that past a certain depth you simply can't do a reorg, right? [16:46]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it is, at that. [16:48]
davout: so yeah, i'm satisfied with the answers in the sense that i did not miss any particular argument against pruning [16:50]
mircea_popescu: sort-of like asking for particular arguments against cutting your own throat. [16:51]
mircea_popescu: it's safe to say you probably missed some PARTICULAR arguments but it's probably safe to say you did get the fundamental argument, which is : you do, you die. [16:51]
davout: i think pruning would compare better to cutting everyone's throat "just a little" bit than "cutting one's own throat" [16:52]
mircea_popescu: you can't prune my chain. you can only prune yours. [16:52]
asciilifeform: ^ [16:52]
mircea_popescu: so... no. cutting own throat, all the way. [16:52]
mircea_popescu: that the absence of such miracle dieters will scarcely be felt is true but not sure if that's relevant to you. [16:53]
davout: if "cutting one's own throat" == "not being able to reverify" i'll agree [16:53]
asciilifeform: davout: the fundamental fallacy is the notion that bitcoin, absent the 'ladder' of transactions from a valid coinbase to your particular unspentolade, is still in whatever sense 'bitcoin' [16:54]
asciilifeform: rather than an old candy wrapper. [16:54]
mircea_popescu: cutting own throat = "not able to participate in bitcoin" [16:55]
asciilifeform: !!up DaoSancho [17:08]
deedbot: DaoSancho voiced for 30 minutes. [17:08]
ben_vulpes: heh k that's a pretty good nick [17:09]
mircea_popescu: what is it ? [17:10]
ben_vulpes: well at first i thought it was a good pun on don sancho using the portugese dao, and punning on teh dao attacker [17:17]
ben_vulpes: pete_dushenski: pm [17:25]
davout: in other aerobatic news [17:25]
davout: "he aircraft encountered wake turbulence sending the aircraft in uncontrolled roll turning the aircraft around at least 3 times (possibly even 5 times), both engines flamed out, the Ram Air Turbine could not deploy possibly as result of G-forces and structural stress, the aircraft lost about 10,000 feet until the crew was able to recover the aircraft exercising raw muscle force" [17:25]
ben_vulpes: > sends business jet in uncontrolled descent [17:25]
ben_vulpes: SWEET [17:25]
davout: tldr: don't fuck with A380s [17:25]
ben_vulpes: > the aircraft received damage beyond repair and was written off [17:27]
ben_vulpes: WHOA [17:27]
davout: i had to double check, thought it was some kind of hoax [17:27]
ben_vulpes: davout: what means "recover the aircraft exercising raw muscle force"? [17:27]
ben_vulpes: manual control surface actuation? [17:28]
davout: that's my understanding too [17:28]
ben_vulpes: so get the bird into some sort of regime where you can air-start the turbines? [17:28]
davout: something different this [17:29]
davout: first: don't die immediately by recovering the aircraft [17:29]
davout: second: try to not die later by getting at least an angine back on [17:29]
davout: *engine duh [17:29]
ben_vulpes: dag [17:30]
veen: with both engines out and no ram air turbine you have no hydraulic pressure with which to do shit [17:30]
veen: literally get two guys on the yoke and start reefin' on it [17:30]
davout: pretty much [17:31]
veen: if you've ever turned off the ignition in your truck while rolling and tried to steer or apply brakes you know the feel [17:31]
davout: or, you know, flown a cessna [17:32]
veen: forces required to move cessna surfaces around within design envelope speeds are not significant, mechanical advantage is sufficient [17:33]
veen: no hydro system on it [17:33]
davout: you still feel it, that's the point [17:33]
ben_vulpes: i imagine the actuation forces in a hyraulicized biz jet are...larger [17:34]
asciilifeform: at least thing ~had~ mechanical linkage. picture a 'by wire' machine. [17:34]
asciilifeform: ~= brick [17:34]
ben_vulpes: no mechanical backups in those? [17:34]
davout: asciilifeform: probably one of the x systems would have survived [17:34]
davout: ben_vulpes: i think some don't [17:34]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: nope. joystick in, e.g., f16, or airbus, is ~exactly same as toy joystick [17:34]
asciilifeform: 0 mechanical link to the surfaces. [17:35]
davout: imagine an A380 on mechanical force, what would the point be? [17:35]
veen: anyway lesson here is that heavy, slow, and high-drag config means shoving a metric fuck ton of air around, and said airmass remains energized for a long while [17:35]
asciilifeform: davout: you can lift a house with hand-cranked mechanical force, just takes time [17:35]
asciilifeform: rome was built with hand-cranked (foot-operated, really) cranes [17:36]
davout: veen: you're usually not slow and in high-drag configuration at FL350 [17:36]
asciilifeform: so entirely conceivable to have airbus with mechanical linkages still worth something minus hydraulic pump [17:36]
davout: i somehow just don't see it [17:36]
ben_vulpes: don't the megaplanes do the trick with the tiny flap that actuates the effecting flap? [17:37]
davout: i'll dig it, the question is interesting [17:37]
veen: aha [17:37]
veen: the man-handling happened at the helm of the challenger, much much smaller airframe [17:37]
davout: ben_vulpes: that rings a bell, not a mega-planes specialist, yet [17:37]
ben_vulpes: davout: aiui, nobody cranks the effecting surfaces around, but uses a small flap to do so. [17:38]
ben_vulpes: and then they hit mechanical stops, eg 0, 1, 2, 3 [17:38]
ben_vulpes: precisely so that losing power doesn't mean instadeath [17:38]
ben_vulpes: but i am not a big bird specialist [17:39]
ben_vulpes: no tv in my house [17:39]
davout: ben_vulpes: looks like the a380 doesn't have purely mechanical backups, which makes sense, only electric ones: [17:39]
davout: bear with my temporary incompetence, still working on air law [17:40]
ben_vulpes: interdasting [17:42]
mircea_popescu: basically this was a case of business jet yachting. [18:09]
mircea_popescu: conceivably the nobel prize committe could confer on them the auld mug. [18:10]
pete_dushenski: in other news, i'm happy to report that i've successfully run alf's wire patch. hooray!1 [18:18]
mircea_popescu: lmao, the libertards are nao in "plox don't expect evidence for that trump-russia thing" mutual grooming mode. [18:38]
mircea_popescu: meanwhile at the other end of "our democracy" female state, [18:41]
Framedragger: got an email, "Kraken opens Melon (MLN) trading" [18:48]
Framedragger: > Melon is a protocol for managing digital assets that is decentralized, modular, transparently auditable, and low cost [18:48]
Framedragger: > Melonport, the company behind Melon, had a very successful Initial Coin Offering (ICO), hitting its target of 227,000 ETH [18:48]
Framedragger: ok [18:48]
asciilifeform: 'initial coin offering' lol [18:49]
Framedragger: i was getting incredulous with the first sentence description but my worries were soothed after reading that they're built on ethereum and that they had an I C O [18:50]
asciilifeform: in other lulz, even though preet is out, preet-style lulzindictments of folx nowhere near usgistan, are still a thing : ( turdalicious fax scan, no plain text available yet afaik ) [18:52]
asciilifeform: << from horse's mouth, some plain text. [18:53]
asciilifeform: 'A grand jury in the Northern District of California has indicted four defendants, including two officers of the Russian Federal Security Service (FSB), for computer hacking, economic espionage and other criminal offenses in connection with a conspiracy, beginning in January 2014, to access Yahoo’s network and the contents of webmail accounts.' [18:53]
mircea_popescu: heh now THAT is going away only with the physical dismemberment of the beast. [18:53]
asciilifeform: preet 'жил жив и будет жить' !111 [18:54]
mircea_popescu: let's not exaggerate. [18:54]
asciilifeform: 'Belan had been publicly indicted in September 2012 and June 2013 and was named one of FBI’s Cyber Most Wanted criminals in November 2013. An Interpol Red Notice seeking his immediate detention has been lodged (including with Russia) since July 26, 2013. Belan was arrested in a European country on a request from the U.S. in June 2013, but he was able to escape to Russia before he could be extradited. Instead of acting on the U.S. g [18:55]
asciilifeform: overnment’s Red Notice and detaining Belan after his return, Dokuchaev and Sushchin subsequently used him to gain unauthorized access to Yahoo’s network.... ' << where is the indictment of the idiot woman ? [18:55]
asciilifeform: what'shername [18:55]
asciilifeform: the 'ceo'. [18:55]
mircea_popescu: yeah, i have nfi why teh putin isn't flooding the usg with red notices for usgtards. [18:55]
mircea_popescu: possibly that nobody gives a shit. [18:56]
pete_dushenski: belan was on cover of one of the sections of the local paper this morning. flexing his tatted muscles in mirror selfie. article referenced how '22yo dropped out of school but was seen on instagram flashing wads of 100s, driving fast cars, drinking grey goose(!), and posing with girls in tight dresses(!!)' [19:00]
mircea_popescu: uh [19:01]
mircea_popescu: wtf, flavoured vodka ? what is wrong with people. [19:02]
pete_dushenski: myeah. rcmp took credit too. independent authority!!!1 [19:02]
mircea_popescu: they really gotta hfcs all the things, don't they. it's not enough the difference between beer and fanta is the label. now gotta fuck up the liquors too don't they [19:02]
mircea_popescu: "Dramatic label. Frenchness. Premium exclusivity." are you FUCKING KIDDING ME ?~!?!?! you can buy it at thew supermarket! wtf exclusivity! [19:03]
pete_dushenski: grey goose has normal unflavoured variants. in mega-bottles (>2l) isn't the only 'flavour' available afaik [19:03]
pete_dushenski: s/it's/isn't [19:03]
pete_dushenski: dunno why anyone would pose with grey goose that wasn't 10l either [19:04]
trinque: it's the shit in every vegas hotel's bullshit snack locker [19:04]
mircea_popescu: !~google reserva san juan [19:04]
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: Conac Reserva San Juan - Alimentos y Bebidas en Mercado Libre ...: <> Cognac Reserva San Juan - Alimentos y Bebidas en Mercado Libre ...: <> Reserva San Juan - Moniquirá | Proyecto Nuevo de Casas ...: (1 more message) [19:04]
mircea_popescu: !~google ron centenario anejo [19:04]
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: Ron Centenario Anejo Especial | Total Wine & More: <> Ron Centenario Anejo Especial | Rum Ratings: <> Ron Centenario Anejo Rum "7": ABC Fine Wine & Spirits: <> [19:04]
mircea_popescu: ok. THAT's exclusive. not because it's expensive but because you can't fucking get it. [19:04]
mircea_popescu: "There is nothing smoother then this rum. I recommend everyone to get this. I bought it in Costa Rica for $45. It goes great with come." << bwahahaha that site. teh sluts know. [19:05]
asciilifeform: << same reason why people don't bite mosquitoes back. [19:08]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-16 22:55 mircea_popescu: yeah, i have nfi why teh putin isn't flooding the usg with red notices for usgtards. [19:08]
mircea_popescu: i do. [19:09]
asciilifeform: lolwut, with teeth ? [19:09]
asciilifeform: ..with proboscis? [19:09]
mircea_popescu: on occasion. yes with teeth. i also pluck their legs and let them die. in general i torture a good half of all mosquitoes. [19:09]
* asciilifeform takes off hat [19:10]
asciilifeform: the mosquitoes here in mosquitolandia are large, but apparently not quite the size of mircea_popescu's ( though at c3 i saw a great many mosquitoes, but 0 bit ! some sort of incompatibility..? ) [19:11]
mircea_popescu: i never bought into that "gotta be the better guy" theor.y [19:11]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform maybe they just minded who you were with :D [19:11]
asciilifeform: dunno that it's about the 'better'. just that one has proboscis, the other does not [19:11]
mircea_popescu: i do ok. [19:15]
asciilifeform: i mean, who the hell cares if ru court indicts somebody. spain, germany, etc. won't extradite to ru. [19:16]
asciilifeform: ~nobody does. [19:16]
mircea_popescu: i said red alerts bs [19:16]
mircea_popescu: "interpol" [19:16]
asciilifeform: incidentally how come 'nobody' cares that interpol was a nazi org ? [19:17]
mircea_popescu: it washed. [19:17]
asciilifeform: built by no less a man than heidrich. [19:17]
mircea_popescu: hey, nobody cares "our democracy" was built by no less a man than mussolini. [19:18]
asciilifeform: evola sold on amazon? tel aviv shits dodecahedral bricks nazi kidnapping squad STILL AROUND, regenesisblocked -- snoar [19:19]
trinque: former had more to do with Bezos' own political signaling [19:21]
mircea_popescu: ^ [19:21]
trinque: nobody "made" him [19:21]
mircea_popescu: i very much doubt any english speaker read enough evola to distinguish him from, whatever, eco [19:21]
asciilifeform: the last book burner who ~read~ the books, likely, died some time in 1500s [19:22]
danielpbarron: russia, check. tits, check. classic catch phrase, check! >> "The raccoon has come to expect that treats await him between a woman's breasts," the zoo says in a lawsuit [19:25]
mircea_popescu: bwahaha [19:25]
asciilifeform: 'Снимая его рядом с обнажённой женщиной, ответчик нанёс вред популяции енотов. Теперь каждый, кто посмотрел данный ролик или фотографию, будет ассоциировать енотов непосредственно с эротикой. ' << l0l!! [19:26]
asciilifeform: didjaknow [19:26]
mircea_popescu: why the fuck are they quoting an english "life" article. [19:26]
asciilifeform: 'by filming the raccoon with a naked woman, the defendant inflicted harm on the population of raccoons. Now, every who sees this given film or photograph, will associate raccoons directly with erotica.' [19:27]
mircea_popescu: wtf, "violation of animal rights" ? what is this bullshit. [19:27]
asciilifeform: not just animal [19:27]
asciilifeform: but 'population of animal [19:27]
asciilifeform: ' [19:27]
mircea_popescu: "moral rights of raccoon" ? [19:27]
asciilifeform: of course this is a circus, neither a concrete raccoon nor all of them put together, have any official 'rights' in ru. [19:28]
mircea_popescu: "animals are not toys" hello, is this an orange zoo ? [19:28]
asciilifeform: but there is a set of 'fried chicken niggers' (tm)(r)(trilema) in ru, who want to change this, so that they can on it. [19:29]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-15 00:29 mircea_popescu: pretty fine example of exactly why warren was so vocal (item was strictly a barony created so elizabeth warren could be barron OF SOMETHING). this cfpb item spent 55mn on "renovations" of its hq, ie more than the gsa spent that year on everything the usg owns spent immensely on travel (which is not something they do). the chairman is supposed to not be removable by the president except "for cause" (meanwhile that got strick [19:29]
mircea_popescu: im sure. [19:29]
asciilifeform: recently it was proclaimed that these folx succeeded in forcing an animal 'census' in moscow. which turned up some 300 large cats. incl. tigers [19:29]
asciilifeform: in various apartments. [19:29]
mircea_popescu: lel. [19:30]
mircea_popescu: i knew a guy who kept a couple. [19:30]
mircea_popescu: ranch like house though. [19:30]
asciilifeform: popular, apparently, pet. [19:30]
mircea_popescu: yeah, popular, with a certain kind of guy. [19:30]
mircea_popescu: ~chuka, or if you prefer iroquis level of mental retardation. [19:30]
mircea_popescu: "totem animal make me strong! huukhaa!!1" [19:31]
asciilifeform: maybe just very advanced toxoplasmosis [19:31]
asciilifeform: or what was it. [19:31]
asciilifeform: 'when, WHEN can i be eaten!!' [19:31]
asciilifeform: there are folx who climb the fence in the zoo, in every country [19:32]
mircea_popescu: nah. contrary to popular imagination, domestic tigers aren't particularly ferocious. [19:32]
mircea_popescu: i suspect that may be the deep driver, guy knows the animal is harmless, much more so than wife, but visitors shit pants. [19:32]
mircea_popescu: think : the first time people found out there were 300 tigers in moscow was when they went to look for them. not when the 500 people were eaten, sort of thing. [19:32]
asciilifeform: indoor pets mostly. [19:33]
asciilifeform: not many american-style 'picket fence' houses there. [19:33]
asciilifeform: and iirc there were more leopards, lynxes, other 'desktop' cats, vs 'mainframe cat' [19:33]
mircea_popescu: yeah. it's a very strong version of i suppose westernarck. if it's seen you for a long time it's not likely to attack unprovoked. [19:33]
mircea_popescu: similarily to how chickens are perfectly safe with housecat that has history of playing with chickens etc. [19:34]
asciilifeform: iirc the typical 'eaten by tiger' candidate is not the owner, but a sometime visitor. [19:34]
mircea_popescu: yeah. some visitor with bad hygiene and brusque manner. [19:35]
mircea_popescu: the animal ~is~ powerful as all hell. so if it decides to get you you're in trouble. [19:36]
asciilifeform: the observation where 'the number of circus trainers among population of people eaten by tigers is ~0' applies to just about everything. [19:37]
ben_vulpes: people don't immediately make friends with the largest animal in the room? [20:39]
ben_vulpes: the mind boggles [20:39]
mircea_popescu: tiger's only a quarter ton or so. [21:36]
mircea_popescu: from what i hear smallest kitten in the room if that room'd be in the 50 contiguous fattes. [21:36]
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> on occasion. yes with teeth. i also pluck their legs and let them die. in general i torture a good half of all mosquitoes. << i like his enthusiasm. im usually content to simply smash them like @ c3. but, hey, i gotta try this. [22:32]
BingoBoingo: <pete_dushenski> belan was on cover of one of the sections of the local paper this morning. flexing his tatted muscles in mirror selfie. article referenced how '22yo dropped out of school but was seen on instagram flashing wads of 100s, driving fast cars, drinking grey goose(!), and posing with girls in tight dresses(!!)' << Apparently post partum psychotic beserker dominated local paper here today [22:46]
BingoBoingo: [23:01]
BingoBoingo: Anyways, that seems to be par for the State of the Female State [23:02]
asciilifeform: in other very olds : << for the Museum of Terrifyingly Bad Translations [23:06]
mircea_popescu: mod6 aha! [23:50]
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