Forum logs for 10 Jun 2016

Monday, 16 March, Year 12 d.Tr. | Author:
mod6: %r foobar 1 [00:07]
mod6: %r foobar 2 [00:07]
mod6: BingoBoingo hey, turns out that I won't have time to finish this tonight, and probably not until tomorrow night at very earliest. [00:13]
BingoBoingo: k [00:14]
mod6: should I just send you what I've got? [00:14]
BingoBoingo: mod6: on trilema and the drinking record [00:14]
BingoBoingo: Submit it when it is finished [00:14]
BingoBoingo: No sooner [00:14]
mod6: this kidna thing isn't forme. [00:15]
BingoBoingo: Well you've got to try everything at least once in life [00:25]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform sure, just gotta start peeling at a corner. [00:43]
mircea_popescu: mod6 aww, you didn't choke on the submit part did you ? just gpg --encrypt --armor -r bingo and put the text into dpaste or [00:44]
BingoBoingo: ^ [00:48]
davout: <<< it does, however when i look at it seems to me #7 should be an antecedent of 3,4,5,6 but not the other way around [04:18]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-09 23:04 mircea_popescu: does this make sense to anyone outside of yours truly ? asciilifeform ? davout ? jurov ? phf ? trinque ? [04:18]
davout: in other words i don't get how a worker could be made if the interface it should honor isn't defined beforehand [04:19]
shinohai: later tell BingoBoingo [07:18]
gribble: The operation succeeded. [07:18]
deedbot: [Recent Phuctorings.] Phuctored: 3 divides RSA Moduli belonging to 'James Bottomley <> James Bottomley <> James Bottomley <> James Bottomley <> ' - [07:34]
deedbot: [Recent Phuctorings.] Phuctored: 3 divides RSA Moduli belonging to 'FAKE: key generation test ' - [07:34]
deedbot: [Recent Phuctorings.] Phuctored: 3 divides RSA Moduli belonging to 'Kampfkunstzentrum Reutlingen <> ' - [07:34]
deedbot: [Recent Phuctorings.] Phuctored: 3 divides RSA Moduli belonging to 'James Bottomley <> James Bottomley <> James Bottomley <> James Bottomley <> James Bottomley <> ' - [07:34]
jurov: mod6: BingoBoingo: btcalpha is mike-c's thing [08:25]
mircea_popescu: davout why ? [09:45]
mircea_popescu: of course the interface is how the worker's written not the other way around. [09:45]
asciilifeform: <> << l0lllz. such is bitrot, we all knew, high-energy photons are attracted by the toe fungus of kernel devs physics nobel at 11. [09:46]
asciilifeform: in other lulz: [09:47]
asciilifeform: 'Around 800 backbone fiber connections in the continental US (95+% of the backbone) have been tapped for data collection. Some of the telcos are aware of this, but are silently cooperating by not implementing point-to-point bulk traffic encryption. There is an extensive ghost network that connects these nodes, enabling traffic analysis and tracing in near-real time. As of recently, the passive taps are being converted to active filte [09:48]
asciilifeform: ring nodes, enabling traffic disruption and injection. This means that all the talk about legal instruments, NSLs etc. is immaterial, and that Tor traffic is practically vulnerable.' [09:48]
mircea_popescu: in other non-news, [09:50]
asciilifeform: << apparently it's a... karateka. [09:50]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 11:34 deedbot: [Recent Phuctorings.] Phuctored: 3 divides RSA Moduli belonging to 'Kampfkunstzentrum Reutlingen <> ' - [09:50]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform suddenly the value of point to point encrypted traffic at the box level becomes apparent ? [09:51]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: apparent eons ago [09:51]
mircea_popescu: the empire is cheap, because the empire is poor. [09:51]
asciilifeform: empire is made of cocksucking satrapies who wouldn't point-encrypt if martians gave them the gear for free. [09:52]
mircea_popescu: well, the martians are. [09:52]
asciilifeform: lel who's the leathery old chick [09:56]
mircea_popescu: "big star" of the tv school. [09:57]
a111: Logged on 2016-05-25 20:46 mircea_popescu: the system's been around for decades i fucked a bunch in my day. recently they tried to close the thing down, arrested gals by the pail, but... from what i hear it didn't take. [09:57]
asciilifeform: and incidentally, 'the passive taps are being converted to active filtering nodes' >>> <<< etc. [09:58]
a111: Logged on 2015-12-17 23:25 ascii_field: meanwhile, 'socket no message in first 60 seconds, 0 1' between two boxes which i control [09:58]
mircea_popescu: in the same vein note the "Per info e serate:Katia Rimmaudo +39 366 3542452 email:" part. [09:58]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform aha. [09:58]
asciilifeform: << see also. [09:59]
a111: Logged on 2016-05-17 14:54 asciilifeform: the 'let's talk plaintext to randos' thing was great while it lasted. [09:59]
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> mod6 aww, you didn't choke on the submit part did you ? just gpg --encrypt --armor -r bingo and put the text into dpaste or << ah, no. my writing isn't good. so lol, it's difficult for me. [10:19]
mod6: the gpg part isn't a prob or whatever. [10:20]
mircea_popescu: a [10:20]
mod6: speaking of which, i think I'm going to need to rework this whole antecedent thing. while building it, it seemed to make sense to me, but now, looking at it through a different set of eyes, it seems unintuitive at best, out right backwards at worst. [10:21]
mod6: so im gonna dig into that a bit today, and see what needs to change if anything -- the structure shouldn't change too much, just a lot of labeling to make it more .... intuitive. [10:22]
deedbot: [Trilema] Come see babies having sex - [10:32]
asciilifeform: in other lulz, [10:37]
asciilifeform: ^ a new, bolder microshit infects binaries at build time [10:38]
Framedragger: alf is like a good decent-link-filter-and-repost bot #b-a -> #trilema [10:39]
mircea_popescu: lol [10:39]
mircea_popescu: hey, apparently it works. [10:39]
asciilifeform: Framedragger: somebody gotta do the salvage work. [10:40]
Framedragger: can't complain. *muh links get st0len* [10:40]
Framedragger: it's just logging timestamps to windows event logger it seems. but still bold and shitty [10:41]
mircea_popescu: turns out this "telemetry" is an utter misnomer, "etw" is just a stack trace a la windows ? [10:41]
asciilifeform: anything in the binary you didn't put there == infection. [10:41]
mircea_popescu: but the thing itself is... a stack trace. right ? [10:41]
asciilifeform: like the 'unique id' crapolade microshit stuff into everything from vs exe to word docs. [10:41]
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: etw seems to be a more generic framework than that, but can't be bothered to look too deeply. something like that anyway [10:42]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it calls an undocumented api thing that can do whatever the fuck microshit wants it to do on next update. [10:42]
mircea_popescu: "users should add notelemetry.obj to their linker command line" lol k. [10:42]
Framedragger: i don't think it's a complete stack trace. it's just timestamps? [10:42]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform admitting for a moment windows can actually do things. [10:42]
mircea_popescu: Framedragger carroll dude is blathering about how it works if "customer also supplies symbol info" [10:43]
mircea_popescu: so yeah i guess half of one. [10:43]
mircea_popescu: since when are timestamps the way to approach this btw ? [10:43]
Framedragger: ah, right, i see why you'd think that. yeah so something of the kind, partially. ugh M$ [10:43]
asciilifeform: the way it works, [10:43]
asciilifeform: is that it is a placeholder. [10:43]
asciilifeform: say next year it will write not only timestamp but exe hash to log. [10:44]
mircea_popescu: Framedragger right ? kinda how they do shit. [10:44]
Framedragger: welll, NT kernel is a piece of engineering, whatever your feelings for M$ [10:44]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no because itwillbeoff.jpg [10:44]
asciilifeform: year after that, it uploads this log on daily basis (along with the keystroke logs we already know to exist starting in win8) to microshit. etc. [10:44]
Framedragger: but yeah of course fuck them, can't argue with that [10:44]
asciilifeform: and ahahaha itwillbeoff.jpg yeahlol. [10:44]
mircea_popescu: you're like from the 90s or something! [10:44]
mircea_popescu: there's been 25 years of "pubic opinion" and "internet community" PROGRESS since then! [10:45]
asciilifeform: quite. [10:45]
Framedragger: muh idol is bill gatez he the great hack3r [10:45]
Framedragger: true, true [10:45]
mircea_popescu: what rock have you been living under! teh jwz chorus won all the wars, what. [10:45]
Framedragger: i do remember investigating how a few of them ring 0 windows rootkits work, thereby sort of delving into NT internals... it's a world unto itself. and it's full of objects!!! ah, childhood :D [10:46]
Framedragger: iirc they have their own solution for pipes, which does work [10:46]
mircea_popescu: in other lulz, [10:47]
mircea_popescu: " [10:47]
mircea_popescu: <mirceayyy> I'm Lilly. I am a very liberal SJW activist who is also into very kinky sex. I am on here to finally to what I know in my heart is right and fair and find an African American person whom wants to own a white slave. I am very obedient, can cook, clean, and do whatever else would be required of me." [10:47]
Framedragger: but there's also this [one sec] [10:47]
Framedragger: ^ wow, fetishisation of social something much [10:47]
Framedragger: THIS -- example of internal windows APIs... it's full of dragons. spoiler alert: vomit [10:48]
asciilifeform: Framedragger: i have much of this rubbish in hardcopy here. [10:49]
asciilifeform: for years. [10:49]
Framedragger: (it's a long post but a nice read for one of them rainy days) [10:49]
mircea_popescu: who knows, maybe black dudes looking for a derpy slavegirl in audience. [10:49]
asciilifeform: seen thestringpuller [10:49]
gribble: thestringpuller was last seen in #trilema 10 weeks, 1 day, 21 hours, 20 minutes, and 0 seconds ago: <thestringpuller> phf: turning the logs into [10:49]
Framedragger: asciilifeform: undocumented windows NT features or sth like that? there was a book... [10:49]
asciilifeform: Framedragger: more than one [10:49]
mod6: boy. i think that the logic might be correct in there -- but boy oh boy is "ANTECEDENT(s)" a bad label. [10:50]
Framedragger: asciilifeform: i'm sure you've had good fun with them :) [10:50]
mod6: should read "ANTECEDENT OF" if anything [10:50]
mod6: does anyone agree with that assessment? [10:50]
asciilifeform: Framedragger: not so much fun, but some profit. [10:50]
Framedragger: fair enough [10:51]
* Framedragger remembers writing a shitty "back-connect" backdoor, coupling it with keylogger and a shitty "Hacker Defender" (sic) rootkit which hides the former two, and installing the bundle onto school PCs running the latest AV... [10:52]
mod6: eh, maybe not. [10:52]
mircea_popescu: mod6 i've been thinking about it since yest. [10:54]
mod6: so... all of these obnoxious mental gymnastics are because i didn't want to use the term "blocker" [10:54]
mod6: which it really should read [10:54]
mod6: i.e. [10:54]
mod6: %p UCI 2 [10:54]
tb0t: Project: UCI, ID: 2, Type: F, Subject: #trilema standard bot, Antecedents: , Notes: Should be capable of maintaining connection to channel interfacing with deedbot interfacing with Lordship/voiced users. [10:54]
mircea_popescu: but not exactly see, because for instance in uti oops i mean uci thing : 4 doesn't block 7 if 3 is present say. [10:54]
mod6: err [10:55]
mod6: %p UCI 8 [10:55]
tb0t: Project: UCI, ID: 8, Type: F, Subject: Create UCI supervisor, Antecedents: 2,7, Notes: Interacts with UCI worker through interface interacts with peers through #trilema standard bot. Maintains list of prices for exposed abilities and Bitcoin address for payments list of trusted peers for accepting orders and verifying Bitcoin payments administrative policies as appropriate. Directs worker to execute accepted commands, [10:55]
mod6: 2 & 7 are blockers to the completion of 8 [10:55]
mircea_popescu: yes, but look at 7 [10:55]
mircea_popescu: %p UCI 7 [10:55]
tb0t: Project: UCI, ID: 7, Type: I, Subject: Research and design UCI/worker interface., Antecedents: 3,4,5,6, Notes: UCI element should expose significant portions of native ability (at a very minimum networking math processing - CPU and VidCard storage - RAM and HDD) through an unified, lightweight interface. Feature load less important than simplicity. [10:55]
mircea_popescu: arguably ANY ONE of 3, 4, 5, 6 is sufficient. [10:55]
mircea_popescu: so calling them antecedents is actually correct : they're the earlier pieces. [10:56]
mod6: ok! so you're looking at it the same way i was then -- and I thought this yesterday. [10:56]
mod6: which is why I think your graph for UCI is correct. [10:56]
mircea_popescu: my only thing was with the arrows, because currently they go against the flow of entropy. [10:56]
mod6: just not sure if anyone else will see it that way. but i guess that doesn't quite matter either. [10:56]
mircea_popescu: of course, they go with the logic flow, i suppose. [10:56]
mod6: yeah, i see how that, especially in this case as opposed to V does warp the mind a bit. [10:58]
mod6: because goal with this is not just to flow in to one direction, the goal is to recurse and solve from the leaves to root. [10:59]
mod6: hmm. ok. i gotta run here for a bit. will think on it a bit more. thanks! [10:59]
mircea_popescu: basically. i mean, that's the point right ? for people to pick up tickets and push through [11:00]
mod6: yeah. [11:00]
deedbot: [» Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski] It’s never too soon for an Uninterruptible Power Supply. - [11:16]
asciilifeform: l0l he found a floor-standing one [11:22]
asciilifeform: (my rack-mount thing also, in fact, stands on floor. in one of those '90s-era 'full tower pedestals' with the ratcheting clamp) [11:22]
deedbot: [Qntra] WOTless Bitcoin n00b Scammed For Millions Of Fiat Tokens - [11:24]
Framedragger: lol just had a meeting with boss: he wants to create a general valuation (as in IP valuation) framework for cryptocurrencies [11:32]
Framedragger: just explained what public ledger is [11:33]
Framedragger: gonna be interesting [11:33]
trinque: what [11:35]
trinque: Framedragger: aside from the market cap of the thing? [11:35]
trinque: sounds like he read an article on blockchain teckmology [11:36]
Framedragger: yes, aside from that [11:37]
Framedragger: one of potential clients: scotcoin (as in chief operators - haven't looked yet if that even makes sense) [11:37]
Framedragger: yeah it's probably bull interesting to think in terms of IP though, whether there's a valuation methodology possible [11:38]
Framedragger: i detest these glossy landing page designs. then again, maybe a stability point has been reached on the web, in the sense of content-less websites now employing a content-less form [11:45]
Framedragger: > look for EBITDA [11:47]
Framedragger: > find emoji javascript and jquery scroll animation [11:47]
davout: <<< seems intuitive enough to me [11:53]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 14:21 mod6: speaking of which, i think I'm going to need to rework this whole antecedent thing. while building it, it seemed to make sense to me, but now, looking at it through a different set of eyes, it seems unintuitive at best, out right backwards at worst. [11:53]
davout: <<< because the alternative is accepting arbitrary executables [11:55]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 13:45 mircea_popescu: davout why ? [11:55]
trinque: asciilifeform: maybe you can find the thread for Framedragger regarding whether certain things (bitcoin, V) can have "valuation" [12:03]
trinque: I've been searching, haven't found [12:03]
asciilifeform: trinque: i have nfi what is meant [12:04]
asciilifeform: $s pay for sunlight [12:04]
a111: 3 results for "pay for sunlight", [12:04]
asciilifeform: ^ this ? [12:04]
trinque: yeah that one [12:05]
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in heathendom, [12:08]
asciilifeform: ^ how the fuck does this even make sense as written ? [12:08]
asciilifeform: let's start with 'If a bitcoin block strictly larger than 1000000 bytes (1 MB) gets mined on the main chain and subsequently receives more than 100 confirmations before December 31st 2016 at midnight GMT included, this bet resolves as "Yes".' [12:08]
asciilifeform: how does a gavinblock - definitionally - sit on 'main chain' ? [12:09]
asciilifeform: even in principle. [12:09]
asciilifeform: can someone tell me ? [12:09]
asciilifeform: 'Should a block strictly larger than 1Mb get mined, betting will close immediately and all bets received after the event (where "received" means "bet transaction gets one confirmation on the bitcoin network") will be refunded, minus BitBet's fee.' << aaaaand there went mircea_popescu's 'anti-chiseling' thing. gone, just like that. [12:09]
mircea_popescu: Framedragger ahahahaha oookay. [12:15]
mircea_popescu: ftr : not only it's impossible to have an "ip valuation of bitcoin", but moreover the bitcoin valuation of ip returns 0. [12:16]
mircea_popescu: << this makes no sense. who starts building from the interface ? [12:19]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 15:55 davout: <<< because the alternative is accepting arbitrary executables [12:19]
mircea_popescu: << i'll pass, let whoever's getting paid for this handle it. [12:21]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 16:09 asciilifeform: can someone tell me ? [12:21]
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: yeah i mean.. yeah. it's almost as if: if bitcoin valuation of ip returns > 0, then bitcoin failed in terms of one of its design principles, or something [12:21]
Framedragger: i dunno. gonna be interesting. will update if any good comes out of it (or bad..) [12:22]
mircea_popescu: alternatively you could explain to your boss that a) he's not terribly informed, and if he's interested in this sort of thing b) really should make gpg id and show up here with his q's. [12:24]
mircea_popescu: which [12:24]
mircea_popescu: will also have the great benefit of c) clip his wings a shade. [12:24]
ben_vulpes: "intellectual property"? [12:27]
mircea_popescu: i presume. [12:27]
ben_vulpes: yeah, that's not terrifically well thought-out. [12:28]
ben_vulpes: "what is the value of owning source code for a token system that everyone else must have a copy of in order to play?" [12:28]
ben_vulpes: p much just the value of the tokens neh [12:28]
ben_vulpes: i doubt a binary-only 'bitcoinalike' would fly even were it wot-o-genic [12:29]
mircea_popescu: reading the specs of that ds1500b-rm opti-ups thing... output voltage regulation +/- 2% ?! srsly, that noisy ? [12:29]
ben_vulpes: heh american "engineering rounding error" [12:30]
mircea_popescu: but if it cycles from -4 to +4 V it's noisier than grid power. [12:30]
ben_vulpes: no idea [12:31]
ben_vulpes: 'power supply' to me means i dial a voltage and it holds it to a hundredth of a volt. [12:32]
ben_vulpes: (within operating envelope) [12:32]
mircea_popescu: neway, i was thinking more of something a la [12:33]
mircea_popescu: (electronics not pictured) [12:33]
mircea_popescu: (doesn't have to come with the trailer, of course. you'll need a battery rack about the same size and a serious converter, ie, 100kW as opposed to 1050kW) [12:34]
ben_vulpes: the ups is just supposed to be a bridge to the gennie. [12:35]
ben_vulpes: either you can depend on the mains or you can't. and they're not getting better in NA. [12:36]
mircea_popescu: yeah but you want the bridge to be wide enough. 1kw is not practically useful - inductive charge for an average ac unit for instance easily beats 5kw [12:37]
davout: <<< how could one build a basic calculator proggy without at least the rough interface specification of: "arithmetic expression goes in, scalar result comes out"? [12:37]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 16:19 mircea_popescu: << this makes no sense. who starts building from the interface ? [12:37]
ben_vulpes: either provision for your "megawatt standard lifestyle" or...scramble around unplugging things to extend the tiny window before your node goes offline completely. [12:37]
ben_vulpes: what is really at issue here is one's connectivity to the bitcoin network. so yes, power. also, shortwave. [12:37]
mircea_popescu: davout because he's not supposed to do emulation on the worker. if your kernel runs javascript, you expose reals. if your kernel runs balanced ternary, you exposed balanced ternary. [12:37]
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes note that there's a lot of space between 100kw and 1mw. [12:38]
davout: mircea_popescu: so basically no sandboxing? [12:38]
mircea_popescu: davout not at worker level. you do that at administrative level. [12:39]
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: well megawatt lifestyle in survival mode [12:39]
davout: aha, so in other words tmsr is making its own docker [12:39]
ben_vulpes: davout: triggered [12:40]
mircea_popescu: << ftr, very reasonable 12kw units available. 4k what's that, half a weekend trip. [12:40]
davout: or own aws [12:40]
mircea_popescu: davout own docker/aws/tor/silk road/nsa/cloudflare/dns/you name it. [12:40]
davout: ben_vulpes: who/what triggered who/what? [12:40]
ben_vulpes: > tmsr is making its own docker [12:40]
ben_vulpes: triggered me [12:40]
mircea_popescu: he's affecting that he can't hear docker, so we don't realise he sleeps with a stuffed bear with a penis that reads docker [12:41]
davout: ben_vulpes: one could also say tmsr is reinventing microservices [12:41]
davout: :D [12:41]
ben_vulpes: so triggered [12:41]
mircea_popescu: loller. [12:41]
davout: as we say: "je comprends vite mais il faut parfois m'expliquer longtemps" [12:41]
mircea_popescu: lol. [12:41]
mircea_popescu: (re above link : a buried gpl tank and a gpl/lp/ng generator possibly much better solution than gasoline powered. unless you actually intend to build a gasoline tank, which is a permit nightmare usually.) [12:42]
ben_vulpes: 88 ft^3/hr? [12:44]
mircea_popescu: gillette also makes up to iirc 1mw units. but really, from both a redundancy and efficiency pov it's better to buy multiple smaller ones. [12:45]
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes hm ? [12:45]
ben_vulpes: estimating 500 gal tank capacity [12:45]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu would be quite surprised what the % accuracy on sine coming out of mechanical genset is. [12:47]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform just about 2%. [12:47]
asciilifeform: if no load. [12:47]
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes well... they run ~50% efficiency, so you can get consumption from power rating pretty much. so you should expect about 1galon/hour drawn for every ~16kW of installed power. roughly speaking. [12:48]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu has a petrol engine that does 50%!?? [12:48]
ben_vulpes: oh that's an interesting approach [12:48]
asciilifeform: because that would be a historic moment [12:48]
ben_vulpes: i was just looking at fuel consumption as an upper bound [12:48]
asciilifeform: (20-30 is typical) [12:49]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform eh it's not the 70s anymore! [12:49]
asciilifeform: actually it is. [12:49]
mircea_popescu: hater. [12:49]
asciilifeform: lel [12:49]
asciilifeform: anyway petrol generator is 'sexy', vrooom, vroom, but actual practice is that brown-outs, spikes, <30sec blackouts, are the real itch re computer user. [12:50]
asciilifeform: and for that petrol is quite irrelevant, you want doubleconverting ups with ample spare capacity and fresh battery. [12:51]
mircea_popescu: eh, you want the whole thing. converter battery and generator. [12:51]
mircea_popescu: no point in solving half-problems, especially when the shit's not even expensive. [12:51]
asciilifeform: thing is, even cheap generator, that has to be connected with extension cord and rolls on wheels out of garage, suffices if you have good doubleconverting ups [12:52]
asciilifeform: it makes the quality of the ~input~ ac irrelevant. [12:52]
asciilifeform: and gives you time to revv up the motor. [12:52]
asciilifeform: so long as we're speaking of a house, rather than datacentre or factory [12:52]
mircea_popescu: but to resolve your doubts asciilifeform : .7kW * 14 hrs = just about 10kw to the gallon. which is ok considering the tiny size. [12:52]
mircea_popescu: sane sized ones get better mileage. [12:52]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you recall at no point "just a gas generator" was contemplated. that + battery bank + electronics = win. [12:53]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the pictured gensets are what most folks have where i live. [12:53]
mircea_popescu: aha. [12:53]
asciilifeform: motorcycle engine. [12:53]
mircea_popescu: anyway, off top of head 400 kw generator eats ~28.5 gal/hr full load and ~15 half load 250 kw eats 18 and about 10. it degrades from there. [12:54]
asciilifeform: popular generator for folks with money, in usa, is stationary thing that runs of city gas when available and switches to diesel if not. [12:55]
mircea_popescu: these, it should be pointed out, are not THAT expensive. which is the important item here. [12:55]
mircea_popescu: if you're about to drop 1mn on a piece of property, the notion that you wouldn't drop a few tens of k's on actually having power for it is outright idiotic. [12:56]
asciilifeform: the installation is about half of the cost. [12:56]
asciilifeform: need Official electricians to sign off, etc. [12:56]
asciilifeform: and most large commercial buildings have these, although, strangely, not connected to the tenants' wiring ! - only lights and lifts. [12:56]
asciilifeform: mandated by some obscure law. [12:56]
asciilifeform: (where i live, anyway) [12:56]
mircea_popescu: yawell. [12:57]
asciilifeform: the most comical situation was of course in usgland. i was working at an army base, and there were the most titanically impressive generators i've ever seen, each easily the size of a train car, diesel cisterns two stories high, etc. BUT we still lost power in the lab. because somehow it wasn't connected to it. [12:58]
asciilifeform: and ~nothing else was. [12:58]
mircea_popescu: lmao. [12:58]
mircea_popescu: by the time you're talking traincar sized gensets, you're prolly better off building a small nuclear plant anyway. [12:59]
mircea_popescu: strangely enough, small nuclear plants are actually a lot safer than the large ones also. [12:59]
asciilifeform: many years ago, i was working in uni. of md., in the same building as one of the 'root dns' boxes. we had no fewer than 4 stationary diesels, of various makes. they worked. [12:59]
asciilifeform: and tested weekly. [13:00]
asciilifeform: loud. [13:00]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'pebble reactor' [13:00]
asciilifeform: iirc it is now all the rage in jp. [13:00]
asciilifeform: can get office bldg. sized unit. [13:00]
mircea_popescu: myeah. [13:00]
asciilifeform: keep in the cellar. [13:00]
asciilifeform: i have nfi if these were actually sold or only eternally threatened to market. [13:00]
mircea_popescu: usually the traincar-boxed gensets are 1500-2000-2500 kw sorta deals. [13:01]
shinohai: <<< bwhahaha Gawker filers for Bankruptcy [13:05]
mircea_popescu: lol now that defo should be on qntra. [13:05]
mircea_popescu: preferably with a picture of a young man pissing on a grave. [13:05]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform zee germanz had a small unit built at some point. then they tore it down because usg lobby for fucking them over ended up paying ~half a dollar per kW produced in "dismantling" costs. [13:06]
ben_vulpes: ahaha so thiel pulled it off? [13:06]
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes this is an ancient story. [13:06]
mircea_popescu: $google julich arbeitsgemeinschaft versuchsreaktor [13:07]
ben_vulpes: the bankrupting part is new to me [13:07]
deedbot: << AVR (Jülich) – Wikipedia | << AVR reactor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | << bei der AVR GmbH! [13:07]
mircea_popescu: oh oh oh. [13:07]
mircea_popescu: my bad :p [13:07]
ben_vulpes: yes the vendetta is old [13:07]
ben_vulpes: but the kill -- fresh [13:07]
mircea_popescu: word. [13:07]
asciilifeform: not like the gawktrons will vanish. [13:08]
asciilifeform: they will be bought and operated. [13:08]
asciilifeform: a la reddit. [13:08]
ben_vulpes: by even dumber and poorer 'j-skool' grads [13:08]
ben_vulpes: and others with aspirations of relevance and no historical view [13:08]
mircea_popescu: well, yeah, but very progressive and looking for a black man to cook for. [13:09]
ben_vulpes: one in a fucking million, maybe. [13:09]
shinohai: paging BingoBoingo ... he has to write this one. [13:09]
mircea_popescu: good enough :D [13:09]
ben_vulpes: the rest have never had the autonomy over any scope to know how much better life is under a good master. [13:10]
ben_vulpes: show up and start in with the unfounded ideas. [13:10]
ben_vulpes: then "omg tensions were so high yesterday i don't want to come in" [13:10]
mircea_popescu: is this the voice of bitter experience ? [13:10]
ben_vulpes: "you better tell me you have the shits, because that excuse is completely unacceptable." [13:11]
mircea_popescu: ud the shits [13:11]
gribble: Error: We broke The Google! [13:11]
mircea_popescu: hm [13:11]
mircea_popescu: allow me to recommend perfectly definitive solution for the shits : [13:11]
mircea_popescu: $google eridiarom [13:11]
ben_vulpes: generic 'i dun wanna work' excuse. [13:11]
deedbot: << EFFICACY OF PHYTOTHERAPEUTICAL PRODUCTS (ERIDIAROM ... | << Eridiarom Tratament Eficient În prevenirea și Tratarea diareelor | [13:11]
mircea_popescu: all natural. the only diarrhea that survives it is death. [13:12]
ben_vulpes: bitter? [13:12]
mircea_popescu: nope. tastes like blueberries, vaguely. and non-constipating either. [13:12]
ben_vulpes: i hope i don't taste like blueberries, and further how would you know?! [13:13]
mircea_popescu: i thought you were asking IF THE CURE IS BITTER! [13:13]
ben_vulpes: :D [13:13]
mircea_popescu: this is like trolling. [13:14]
ben_vulpes: not my fault you can't remember what you said two minutes ago [13:14]
mircea_popescu: i can but the rule is that question is fit to the closest non-contradicting context. [13:14]
mircea_popescu: it is your job to review the timeflow and add sufficient context so that your question is not fitted to later items under discussion than what you mean! [13:15]
ben_vulpes: yeah cuz saliency dun bear or something [13:15]
mircea_popescu: it's not "best fit", it's "first non-contradicted". [13:15]
ben_vulpes: why would i give a shit about the bitterness of a cure for a made up ailment i ask you [13:15]
mircea_popescu: but see, the parser should never consider this question. because if it does, it narrows unduly the space of possible expression. [13:16]
mircea_popescu: and we'll end up reddit-communicating, ie, each his own. [13:16]
ben_vulpes: have a pineapple [13:18]
ben_vulpes: and a us college grad [13:18]
ben_vulpes: i can't be arsed to shuck either of their inedible exteriors. [13:19]
mircea_popescu: in other google lulz : wherein 4th result is "". now is some derpy texas eatery (which got scammed by the webtard community of a decade ago into "needing" a website), but the precise url google recommends actually does X-Powered-By: PHP/5.3.29 302 Location: [13:28]
mircea_popescu: supposedly all this pile of effort is getting paid through derps putting in their mobile # and then getting charged by telco of which gross the author makes ~40%. [13:31]
mircea_popescu: somehow i doubt it comes to anything, but whadda i know. [13:31]
mircea_popescu: << amusingly, same dir too. [13:37]
mircea_popescu: << and now we know what's being sold, also. child porn! google reports no less than 106k hits! [13:39]
mircea_popescu: (server, of course, from microsoft) [13:40]
mircea_popescu: moar lulz [13:42]
asciilifeform: << pestilential in ru [13:43]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 17:31 mircea_popescu: supposedly all this pile of effort is getting paid through derps putting in their mobile # and then getting charged by telco of which gross the author makes ~40%. [13:43]
mircea_popescu: in argentina, telcos just steal the prepaid credit. no need for all this. [13:43]
asciilifeform: prepaid ? [13:43]
mircea_popescu: well yeah. [13:44]
asciilifeform: as in 'call card' ? [13:44]
asciilifeform: wouldn't that put a small upper bound on the loot ? [13:44]
mircea_popescu: as in "i'm not making contracts with you get lost" [13:44]
mircea_popescu: it does yeah. [13:44]
mircea_popescu: argentines are like this. very very dumb. [13:44]
asciilifeform: prepaid mobiles exist in usa, extortionate cost. [13:45]
asciilifeform: (per-minute) [13:45]
mircea_popescu: yeah. ustards are like ~that~. just as dumb. [13:45]
asciilifeform: at one point they were 'anonymous' but then merchants were usgized into collecting names, addressed today they are largely used by lumpens who can't get normal phone (as it requires credit history) [13:46]
asciilifeform: *addresses [13:46]
mircea_popescu: here they work as indended, ie anonymously. [13:46]
asciilifeform: no chinese 'want sim card - show passport' yet ? [13:47]
mircea_popescu: nope. [13:47]
asciilifeform: neat. [13:47]
asciilifeform: << ben_vulpes this is a quote ? [13:50]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 17:10 ben_vulpes: then "omg tensions were so high yesterday i don't want to come in" [13:50]
asciilifeform: someone said this ? [13:50]
mod6: <+davout> <<< seems intuitive enough to me << ah ok thanks davout [13:51]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 14:21 mod6: speaking of which, i think I'm going to need to rework this whole antecedent thing. while building it, it seemed to make sense to me, but now, looking at it through a different set of eyes, it seems unintuitive at best, out right backwards at worst. [13:51]
shinohai: <<< guess Ill have to print a retraction in Qntra [13:51]
asciilifeform: << moar lulz [13:53]
asciilifeform: 'When any U.S. telecommunications company wishes to install a physical fiber optic connection, and that connection cross into or out of the national borders of the United States, the company which terminates the fiber, in what is called a "landing" is required under federal law to obtain an "International Landing" license, and this is done via the Federal Communications Commission, and there is ALWAYS, repeat ALWAYS, an unclassified [13:53]
asciilifeform: version of the license and then a classified addendum to the agreement. The company who seek the license will be assigned a classified compartments code name that will be "Top Secret/ESI" with the ESI standing for "Extremely Sensitive Information" as disclosure could directly lead to economic devastation to the company, and their involvement must be kept secret.' [13:53]
shinohai: I wonder if that applies equally to qr codes [13:53]
asciilifeform: 'At Tuckerton, Lynn, and other sites, since just after 9/11/2001 if you place a call from Washington, DC to Boston, the call does not actually get sent over underground cables inside the United States, but rather the call gets injected into an international landing site, and routed to Great Britain, and then sent back to the same U.S. Landing location, essentially being a loopback in the UK. Because the loopback caused the signal to [13:58]
asciilifeform: be transmitted over a U.S. border, then legally the NSA/CIA/SCS will claim that it then falls into an international transmission and that they are justified in performing an intercept, even though it is a domestic call, but because it was shot out of the United States over an international loopback. Another wrinkle is because this loopback to the UK, the British government will also intercept it at the loopback point, so that the cal [13:58]
asciilifeform: l gets shared by two independent espionage entities.' [13:58]
asciilifeform: ^ old nyooz to connoisseurs, but lulzy. [13:58]
mircea_popescu: aha. [13:58]
asciilifeform: moar lulzily, where is the supposed 'economic devastation'. [13:59]
asciilifeform: now that even pigeons in the park know that 100% of telcos participate. [14:00]
mircea_popescu: the obvious pill being, of course, point to point encryption via uci on top of end to end encryption via gossipd. [14:00]
asciilifeform: the usg circus tricks weren't cheap, and were very clearly carried out with the assumption that no one would ever discover working crypto. [14:01]
asciilifeform: can't see any other model for this. [14:01]
mircea_popescu: you keep re-injecting this "usg has a head" thing. [14:02]
mircea_popescu: it's dogvomit, not a vole. it has no head. [14:02]
mircea_popescu: grew whicever way the dead tree was. [14:02]
asciilifeform: difficult to escape this conclusion. [14:03]
asciilifeform: incidentally... [14:07]
asciilifeform: calc 10**12 / ((9600 / 8) * 60 * 60 * 24) [14:07]
gribble: 9645.0617284 [14:07]
asciilifeform: CONTIGUOUS DAYS at 9600 baud, on 1TB disk of otp. [14:08]
asciilifeform: that's 26 motherfucking years. [14:08]
asciilifeform: of shell time. [14:08]
asciilifeform: 1TB can fit under the skin of little finger, no need to even open arse. [14:09]
asciilifeform: i can't be the only one who ever did this bit of arithmetic. [14:10]
asciilifeform: calc 10**12 / ((115200 / 8) * 60 * 60 * 24 * 365) [14:14]
gribble: 2.20206888776 [14:14]
asciilifeform: years of 115.2kBaud, plenty adequate to do ~whatever. [14:14]
asciilifeform: (play Doom over ipx!1111111) [14:14]
asciilifeform: video chat. etc. [14:14]
asciilifeform: 9600 is MOAR than what your telco gives you for voice chan. [14:15]
* shinohai is now nostalgic for warez [14:16]
asciilifeform: and can anyone suggest good reason why a p2p link between two permanent stations ought to be anything other than otp ? [14:16]
trinque: asciilifeform: not really. if you wanted to move more data, could exchange pubkeys over the otp link. [14:20]
* trinque imagines pad-courier as a nice gig for the wandering type [14:22]
asciilifeform: trinque: do you understand the point of otp ? [14:33]
asciilifeform: the point is to NOT USE ANYTHING ELSE [14:34]
asciilifeform: any ~even potentially breakable~ algo. [14:34]
asciilifeform: at all. [14:34]
asciilifeform: y'know, otp, where a bit of ciphertext conveys 0 BITS OF INFO re corresponding (or any other) bit of plaintext. [14:36]
trinque: yeah I do understand [14:37]
trinque: and I also move data bigger than 1tb in a given week [14:37]
asciilifeform: move with courier. [14:37]
asciilifeform: srsly 'taanstaafl.' (tm) (r) (heinlein) [14:38]
trinque: what does me moving a cramer shoup key over an otp link reveal about the otp link [14:39]
asciilifeform: << see mega-thread. [14:39]
a111: Logged on 2016-02-06 20:47 mircea_popescu: your bias-less rng shits out n/2 ones. they go against a message containing 3/4n ones. they will flip n/2 items in the message, 3/4 of which being 1s and 1/4 being 0s. you thus end up with 3/8 old ones + 1/8 ex-zeroes for a grand total of exactly 1/2 whoa. [14:39]
trinque: obviously using the cramer shoup link is higher risk than the otp one [14:39]
asciilifeform: trinque: the answer is: ~something~ [14:39]
asciilifeform: trivially provable. [14:39]
trinque: and perhaps I'm alright with that for certain things, not okay with that on others [14:39]
asciilifeform: and it isn't 'reveals re otp link' [14:39]
asciilifeform: it is that using ANY system other than otp moves some nonzero qty of info re plaintext with the ciphertext. [14:40]
asciilifeform: elementary proof (shannon) [14:40]
asciilifeform: essentially the Big Dirty Secret re crypto is that NO ONE HAS YET proven that non-otp cryptography ~actually exists~ [14:40]
asciilifeform: in the sense of a permanent thing that does what it says on the box [14:41]
asciilifeform: quite arguably the entire 20th century circus re symmetric crypto (and possible every other kind) has been an elaborate - possibly engineered - distraction from this fact. [14:41]
asciilifeform: consider the lengths that were gone to, in order to keep folks using rotors after vernam (otp) was a thing. [14:42]
trinque: it could be. if so it would seem to rule out bitcoin entirely in present form [14:42]
trinque: uptime 77 days, RX bytes:129700966372 (120.7 GiB) TX bytes:609770449367 (567.8 GiB) [14:43]
asciilifeform: trinque: bitcoin is arguable best - to date - cryptological canary. [14:43]
asciilifeform: *arguably [14:43]
asciilifeform: but canaries do not come with guarantees of timely death. [14:43]
asciilifeform: and yes, bitcoin (in the most general case) relies on there being such a thing as strong asymmetric crypto. [14:45]
asciilifeform: wot, incidentally, and contrary to popular belief - doesn't!! could, in principle, use lamport signatures. [14:45]
asciilifeform: which merely require strong hash, to exist. [14:46]
asciilifeform: (but are unwieldy.) [14:46]
asciilifeform: if not for this, you're stuck with in-person wotting and broken glass rods or other physical mechanisms of unforgeability. [14:47]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the problems with otp aren't exactly bandwidth like that. [14:47]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in the use case contemplated, there ARE no problems. [14:47]
asciilifeform: can just as easily keep 1TB on a single chip die secret as 4096 bits. [14:47]
asciilifeform: mechanism weighs the same, has same physical shape. [14:48]
asciilifeform: costs slightly more. [14:48]
asciilifeform: thread was re point to point link between people who know one another. [14:48]
mircea_popescu: even so. how do you communicate the pads ? [14:48]
asciilifeform: by letting the two units fuck. [14:49]
mircea_popescu: this definition of "know one another" is very deep. there isn't 1tb of "knowledge" in your average marital relationship. [14:49]
asciilifeform: 1 fuck per 26 years. [14:49]
asciilifeform: (9600 baud.) [14:49]
mircea_popescu: now, i can mentally construct a case for using this system with physically plugged units etc. you refer to it but don't actually discuss it. [14:51]
asciilifeform: calc 10**12 / ((1024*1024*100) * 60 * 60) [14:51]
gribble: 2.64909532335 [14:51]
mircea_popescu: should be obvious that, eg, this scheme doesn't work for a phone. what, i keep plugging extensions function of who's calling ? [14:51]
asciilifeform: fill time, in hours, using 100MB/s rng. [14:51]
asciilifeform: it works for POINT TO POINT phone. modem. whichever. [14:51]
asciilifeform: as in, hose with two ends. [14:51]
mircea_popescu: it'll be pretty expensive. [14:52]
asciilifeform: why? [14:52]
asciilifeform: a 1tb magnetic disk costs ~fiddybux. [14:52]
mircea_popescu: because network points that require servicing every 1tb of data throughput are about 10^8 less reliable than currently deployued items. [14:53]
mircea_popescu: which need servicing every 100 yottabytes or such. [14:53]
asciilifeform: didn't we just do a thread where mircea_popescu said 'piss on current-day 'reliable' ' ? [14:53]
asciilifeform: tapped == unreliable by definition. [14:53]
mircea_popescu: i was discussing capital goods reliability as an economic consideration. [14:54]
asciilifeform: and incidentally service doesn't have to mean interruption. [14:54]
asciilifeform: can fall over to new pad without old one being wholly exhausted. [14:54]
asciilifeform: like changing ups batteries. [14:54]
mircea_popescu: wasn't discussing ops reliability. but economic. "needs servicing" = costs btc. [14:55]
asciilifeform: yes, costs. [14:55]
mircea_popescu: hence "it will be expensive". [14:55]
asciilifeform: and it buys you the final solution to crypto headache. [14:55]
mircea_popescu: provided the rng is that good, which probably it is not etc. [14:55]
asciilifeform: whose 'probably.' [14:56]
asciilifeform: if thing is supplied by usg, whole thing 'probably' leaks 100% of bits to washington. [14:56]
asciilifeform: forget even rng. [14:56]
asciilifeform: if not supplied by rng - trivially works. [14:56]
asciilifeform: *by ug [14:56]
mircea_popescu: in general, a rng capable of delivering good quality data by the tb is not free. [14:56]
asciilifeform: to get the 2 hour fill, you will need at least 32 of mine. [14:57]
mircea_popescu: yeah, well... [14:57]
asciilifeform: (it is possible to use amp with higher slew rate and get moar bitz. but i deliberately used conservative design, with common parts) [14:58]
mircea_popescu: ironically, this level of assurance doesn't belong in the p2p part of the scheme, but exactly at the other end. [14:58]
asciilifeform: which? [14:58]
mircea_popescu: (uci) -> (gossipd) -> (user). [14:59]
mircea_popescu: at the USER end. if you want to otp the stuff you put through cs/rsa, by all means. [14:59]
Framedragger: ben_vulpes: IP is not just source code but shit like brand etc, and goodwill behind it. i'm not defending the foundation of IP, just sayin [15:00]
asciilifeform: it MUST go 'inside' the 'user' end, because otherwise enemy can cause you to waste pad. [15:00]
asciilifeform: by sending rubbish. [15:00]
mircea_popescu: Framedragger "goodwill" is not properly part of ip, no [15:00]
asciilifeform: (with pubkey barrier, he cannot) [15:00]
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: "intangible assets" [15:01]
mircea_popescu: not all intangibles are ip. [15:01]
Framedragger: god i should stop regurgitating my firm's propaganda [15:01]
Framedragger: true, of course [15:01]
Framedragger: we consider them to be ip, then try to put onto balance sheet, then inflate another co's value [15:01]
trinque: the good old "feelings" line item [15:02]
mircea_popescu: there's this pile of special pleading/peculiar interest "views" on reality. such as the marketeer derping about how "everyone else - contributes to costs marketing dept contributes to revenue". [15:02]
mircea_popescu: the "all intangibles are ip" is a similar clump of crap, sprouted by dickless failed lawyers who want to live the rest of their life in the "ip dept", [15:02]
Framedragger: ip dept rings a bell [15:03]
mircea_popescu: and get yachts quite as long as the "sec compliance" dickless failed lawyers or w/e/ [15:03]
asciilifeform: what's 'dickless' or 'failed' about a 40ft yacht full of benjies ? [15:04]
mircea_popescu: also of some (psychiatric) interest, the nonsensical attempt to equate "meaning" altogether, as the concept, with the shoddy, untenable implementation by usg & friends. "ip" is not the superset of noesis ffs. [15:04]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the failure and dicklessness attach to the derp not to the item. [15:05]
asciilifeform: my q is, if 'dickless failure' gets yacht, what does dickful success get ? aircraft carrier ? [15:05]
mircea_popescu: this q is broken. [15:06]
Framedragger: what's funny is the kind of schemes that these views make possible. e.g. you go to bank and bank says your co is worth shit. then you discover that you have "goodwill" etc. so you create another co. and license the use of the main co's TM etc. use to that other co. then you go to bank and show these invoices etc. voila, inflated value [15:06]
mircea_popescu: Framedragger kinda how "civilised world" works, financially. [15:06]
asciilifeform: $up gabriel_laddel [15:06]
deedbot: gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes. [15:06]
Framedragger: yeah. [15:07]
mircea_popescu: hence "apple could buy russia - if only it wanted to!" "oh yeah, what about russia ?" "oh, putin just doesn't understand how the world works" "oh yeah ? and whos going to show him ? you ?" "democracy! humanrights!" "fuck your mother." [15:07]
mircea_popescu: but whatever, let kink high have its jollies. [15:08]
Framedragger: the whole fucking UK is built on this back-and-forth financial-wannabe masturbation. in that sense, "fuck your mother" (which includes such material manifestations as russian winter as you try to move troops in it) sounds much more sober, lively and worthwhile, heh. /incoherent-ranting [15:10]
trinque: asciilifeform │ what's 'dickless' or 'failed' about a 40ft yacht full of benjies ? << the world belonging to someone else [15:10]
mircea_popescu: (ftr, 40ft yachts ~1-200k. less than "a house") [15:13]
mircea_popescu: 70ft items are about 1.2-1.3mn, and closer to comfortable. [15:15]
mircea_popescu: fuckbed + coupla off duty girl beds + basic comforts like that. cooking remains a problem, obviously. but hey, at least you got the generator with you. [15:18]
asciilifeform: << off duty?! who will work the sails ? [15:22]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 19:18 mircea_popescu: fuckbed + coupla off duty girl beds + basic comforts like that. cooking remains a problem, obviously. but hey, at least you got the generator with you. [15:22]
asciilifeform: 70ft is respectable schooner, no? [15:22]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform "yacht". they all have engines. [15:44]
asciilifeform: lame! [15:44]
mircea_popescu: heh. [15:44]
mircea_popescu: ftr, ocean faring with sails is a) not particularly practical in groups under ~100, nor with per-capita footage over ~1 meter or so nor can these really be women. [16:01]
asciilifeform: tell it to orlov. [16:02]
asciilifeform: or the vikings. [16:03]
mircea_popescu: orlov, iirc, is mostly notable for begging for engine replacement ? [16:07]
mircea_popescu: or wait, im confusing him with rms again aren't i. [16:07]
mircea_popescu: darn. [16:07]
asciilifeform: later tell ben_vulpes did 'ruby on rails' for mac os ever ACTUALLY WORK?? << seems like not ? [16:07]
gribble: The operation succeeded. [16:07]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: orlov. he cheats with diesel motor when in port. [16:07]
mircea_popescu: also, vikings satisfied the rules. 100+ men in a 50 meter boat. [16:07]
asciilifeform: as most sail people appear to. [16:07]
mircea_popescu: or that's what they TELL YOU [16:07]
mircea_popescu: "oh, just you know... in port. and... at night. or when tired. or you know, when have to actually get somewhere." [16:08]
asciilifeform: lel [16:08]
asciilifeform: quite possible [16:08]
mircea_popescu: myeah. i'm sure floating randomly is not sailing. [16:08]
* asciilifeform did not sail with him, cannot testify how much he cheats [16:08]
asciilifeform: my understanding is that various things have been roboticized on current boats - steering, possibly even sail trim/raise/lower. [16:10]
mircea_popescu: well it was already all winched in the 70s/80s [16:10]
asciilifeform: now driven by servos, driven by gps/glonas/etc [16:11]
asciilifeform: so possibly needs 98 fewer vikings.. [16:11]
mircea_popescu: if you're gonna do that might as well engine neh ? but anyway! [16:13]
mircea_popescu: " mpapis commented Dec 22, 2014 @behrangsa its limitation of remembering compilation flags by ruby, when the binary rubies are compiled by me or on travis they require to be given paths to statically linked libraries (*.a objects) - this path is then remembered by ruby and added to every gem compilation, as you can see this is not an error as only warning is issued, if you feel this requires fixing open a bug for MRI asking [16:13]
mircea_popescu: ..." [16:13]
mircea_popescu: these dudes are serious aren't they. [16:13]
asciilifeform: ^ summary: mega-famous www library, 'ruby on rails', supposedly luser-friendly, etc. DOES NOT ACTUALLY BUILD on recent mac os [16:13]
asciilifeform: by all appearances. [16:13]
mircea_popescu: "only warning is issued". [16:14]
mircea_popescu: "behrangsa commented Dec 22, 2014 @mpapis, I didn't know that. If this is something common to gems with native extensions, etc. and how MRI works and it is harmless, then I have no complaints. " [16:14]
asciilifeform: bold lie. [16:14]
mircea_popescu: "mpapis commented Dec 22, 2014 it is standard and harmless thing, but ruby could allow filtering out this flags, this could be done as part of the filtration process that already happens in preprocessing in miniruby - but I do not think it would be considered as a ticket without pull request / patch to address this problem." [16:14]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu has read more of the crapola than anyone ought to be expected to for free. [16:14]
asciilifeform: i am wearing 3 gas masks. [16:15]
mircea_popescu: it's pretty entertaining. [16:15]
asciilifeform: in a sense. [16:15]
mircea_popescu: they've taken cubical drone wisdom to what's left of open source. [16:15]
mircea_popescu: which historically has existed specifically so as not to meet them. [16:15]
asciilifeform: i can't even wholly figure out what happened there. [16:15]
asciilifeform: despite trying all day. [16:15]
mircea_popescu: but anyway, very illustrative. derp's problem is not WHAT THE THING IS. [16:16]
mircea_popescu: his concern is circumscribed much more narrowly - what's the paperwork say ? "not an error!" [16:17]
mircea_popescu: bugmen thinking @ work. [16:17]
asciilifeform: eh all vermin say, 'that shit i just shat, it isn't shit, see, my arse emits only flowers and sunshine' [16:18]
asciilifeform: '@zenspider Mocking me? Honestly?!? And the "it works on my machine" response? I really appreciate the work people put into sharing their software with others, but you need to learn to treat people with respect who are trying to help improve your product. I need this for a new system I have inheirited. The first thing I am going to do is get rid of the dependency on your project.' [16:22]
mircea_popescu: heh [16:22]
asciilifeform: 'I'm going to close and lock this conversation, because I don't see any meaningful progress on reproducing the issue in the last month or so, and because of the unproductive conversations and noise. [16:23]
asciilifeform: ' [16:23]
asciilifeform: oct. 28, 2015. [16:24]
asciilifeform: thing STILL croaks. [16:24]
mircea_popescu: awww [16:24]
mircea_popescu: wtf are you dfoing with ruby anyway. [16:24]
asciilifeform: it was the other end of a cpp thing i was doing for money. tried to reconstruct its natural habitat, to test... [16:25]
mircea_popescu: lack of empathy srsly wtf is wrong with these people. [16:26]
mircea_popescu: it's like they've ~all imported a bunch of known-broken, proven-dysfunctional mental tools and by god will fucking use those! EMPATHY! [16:26]
asciilifeform: the more interesting question: this, recall, is mega-popular luser-friendly thing. running on #1 most beloved wwwtronicist's platform. [16:26]
asciilifeform: IT HASN'T WORKED SINCE ... at least oct '15 ? [16:26]
mircea_popescu: ~nobody uses it. [16:27]
asciilifeform: what do all of the ben_vulpeses do ? pass a vm around? [16:27]
asciilifeform: they all set it up back when it built ? which ? [16:27]
asciilifeform: linked report is circa dec. 2014 ! [16:28]
davout: lulzy [16:30]
davout: works on davout's machine! [16:31]
trinque: asciilifeform: docker that's exactly what they do [16:31]
asciilifeform: davout: spiffy. perhaps you can rent it out to folks. [16:31]
asciilifeform: trinque: do what ? [16:31]
trinque: pass VM around [16:32]
asciilifeform: why not mail whole machine around. [16:32]
asciilifeform: same degree of idiocy. [16:32]
ben_vulpes: > reconstruct its natural habitat [16:32]
ben_vulpes: ho ho ho ho ho [16:32]
mircea_popescu: more empathy alf! [16:32]
asciilifeform: i predict that before long, folks will do this. [16:33]
asciilifeform: just main motherfucking server. [16:33]
asciilifeform: *mail [16:33]
asciilifeform: in a crate. [16:33]
asciilifeform: back and forth. [16:33]
mircea_popescu: you mean, back like in the 60s ? [16:33]
asciilifeform: aha. [16:33]
mircea_popescu: progress! community! [16:33]
asciilifeform: except they were more advanced, mailed only tape [16:33]
mircea_popescu: nah, you wanted to run x on y, gotta mail a y. [16:33]
asciilifeform: well, 'y' was likely to take a full rail car [16:34]
asciilifeform: so best not be poor. [16:34]
ben_vulpes: nokogiri [16:34]
ben_vulpes: always so much fun [16:34]
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: shipping vms around is already sop with these shitheads [16:35]
davout: ben_vulpes: osx doesn't really help either... [16:35]
ben_vulpes: docker adoption is largely driven by people who can't get it to work on their workstations [16:35]
mircea_popescu: ^ ahaha . [16:35]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: specifically that turd?! [16:35]
ben_vulpes: the whole railsvironment [16:35]
ben_vulpes: and burgeoningly the go environment as well [16:35]
ben_vulpes: because wtf managing source and packages is hard or what was it [16:36]
asciilifeform: lulzy [16:36]
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: have you tried to run down "best practices" wrt installing ruby and rails on a macintosh? [16:36]
mircea_popescu: in other dubious news, this country is fucking incomprehensible. so i made mayo out of the greatest fucking eggs. clearly corn fed, happy chickens. same shop, tomatoes... the mealiest most retardedly disgusting ship-grown tomatoes. wtf! it's like they only shave half their face. [16:36]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: yes. [16:36]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: it dies as described in the link. [16:36]
ben_vulpes: is it not gloriously retarded. [16:36]
ben_vulpes: what, all of the ruby install? [16:37]
ben_vulpes: i'm talking chruby rbenv and friends [16:37]
ben_vulpes: and the shims shitshow [16:37]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: 'macports' installs ruby per se. it is the rails thing that melts down. [16:37]
davout: ben_vulpes: i never understood the appeal of these turds... [16:37]
ben_vulpes: davout plays rails without rbenv? [16:38]
davout: ben_vulpes: been working with rails since '07, never, ever used that shit [16:38]
ben_vulpes: probably because you figured out how it worked before those became the hot new 'right' way to do things [16:39]
ben_vulpes: "oh just" hose your box in a million interesting ways [16:39]
davout: either install ruby package or build ruby from source, at least that's how *i* do it [16:39]
ben_vulpes: and how do you shuffle between ruby projects with wildly different dependencies? [16:40]
davout: i usually beat those into submission so they work with the ruby i use [16:41]
davout: i probably have much less experience than you juggling between X turds from Y different clients [16:41]
davout: though [16:41]
ben_vulpes: it's pretty classic response from experienced ruby folks [16:41]
ben_vulpes: "oh well i usually just work on one thing for 9-18 months at a stretch, jump to a new job and then wipe the entire install after a week of tearing my hair out" [16:42]
ben_vulpes: meanwhile i need to boot rails app X running ruby version Y with subtly different deps from rails app Z running ruby version Q in about five minutes. [16:42]
asciilifeform: the more interesting question: how many of these folks understand that their 'job' would not EVEN EXIST if it weren't for this lunacy. [16:43]
davout: more like "oh, ruby 1.9 doesn't support this new 2.0 syntax, let's just sed it into sanity" [16:43]
ben_vulpes: "sanity" roflffufozlzozfl [16:43]
davout: ben_vulpes: i guess that sucks... [16:43]
ben_vulpes: yeah it's fucking miserable. [16:43]
ben_vulpes: the publically available toolchain is ~worthless. [16:43]
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: "as it always is, pleb!" [16:44]
ben_vulpes: and you raise the issue with railsfolk of standing and the response is almost always "yow. that sucks. have you tried docker?" [16:44]
davout: kek [16:44]
ben_vulpes: no, but do you know what i'm going to do? buy a fucking laptop engrave your company's name on it charge you for it install your shit on it and keep it. [16:45]
asciilifeform: here's to hoping that docker undergoes the same death as described earlier. [16:45]
asciilifeform: (why should ~it~ continue to build!) [16:45]
ben_vulpes: oh it routinely fails to be useful to old installs [16:46]
ben_vulpes: i went to upgrade a docker installation and they pulled this gorgeous trick where they actually deny access to repos based on docker client version [16:46]
ben_vulpes: bitch are you /serious/ [16:46]
ben_vulpes: i wanted that old ubuntu for a motherfucking reason [16:46]
davout: "not best practice!!1" [16:47]
ben_vulpes: *tearing noises as /me excises more sillicon valley horseshit from client stacks, fixes all problems that had previously been papered over with docker, and deploys to fresh ubuntu 14.04* [16:47]
ben_vulpes: i actually had to walk django-compressor backwards through its released versions, something like 3 whole major releases just to get it to work with the django 1.3.5 that this site needed [16:49]
davout: in other news romania's soccer just got surprise butseks'd [16:49]
davout: *soccer team [16:50]
ben_vulpes: each single breaking change was the result of an entirely wankatronic 'upgrade' to the compressor lib to take more dependencies on more stupid django internals [16:50]
davout: i found a lot of peace and pleasure in learning, and coding a bit, in straight c [16:52]
davout: so. damn. straightforward. [16:54]
asciilifeform: aha, c existed before there 'had to be' employment for 50 million idiots. [16:55]
asciilifeform: it is a mistake to suppose that the cancers, e.g., rails soup, happen by accident. [16:56]
ben_vulpes: dude there is no head to the hydra [16:56]
asciilifeform: no need for a head. [16:56]
asciilifeform: entirely p2p thing. [16:56]
asciilifeform: let's work example, [16:56]
asciilifeform: mr schmuck, the django or whatever dev, introduces breakage, additional dependencies. [16:57]
asciilifeform: what is the reaction downstream ? [16:57]
asciilifeform: grumbling, installing 'updates' etc. [16:57]
asciilifeform: upstream? 'hoorah! our shit is Moar Relevant nao' [16:57]
ben_vulpes: how can the game dynamics produce any other result? [16:58]
asciilifeform: different reward matrix --> different result. [17:00]
asciilifeform: in this case, 'work creation' is rewarded. [17:00]
asciilifeform: as per . [17:00]
davout: i definitely agree that this applies to rails the phramework, but i am and will openly remain a rubyrast [17:01]
davout: the language [17:01]
* davout reading [17:01]
asciilifeform: my realization is that this kind of thing is EXACTLY same as fiatolade [17:05]
asciilifeform: 'jobs' come 'out of nowhere' [17:06]
davout: asciilifeform: i don't see much of a link between "dependency mess" and "lack of automation" [17:06]
davout: ah, missed the "in this case, 'work creation' is rewarded." line [17:06]
davout: now i see [17:07]
asciilifeform: davout: see thread. if the mess did not exist, ben_vulpes et al would have to earn bread some other way [17:07]
davout: but that's kind of the same thing as saying "work creation is rewarded" when more modern airplanes require more maintenance [17:08]
asciilifeform: exactly same [17:08]
ben_vulpes: rails webshites have 10x the complexity for 1.1x the 'features' [17:09]
davout: you could fix the cessna i fly with a toothpick and some wire, doesn't mean that the existence of the A380 is justified by the creation of labor for the cattle [17:09]
asciilifeform: well point of a380 is supposed to be moving folks across ocean cheaply [17:10]
davout: ben_vulpes: as much as rails is in many ways retarded i tend to think that if this were true, folks would write websites in straight c [17:10]
davout: asciilifeform: yeah that's the point [17:11]
davout: not "creating more labour to keep the cows busy" [17:11]
asciilifeform: davout: my observation was that there is ~0 incentive to make wwwtronic systems lighter/more consistent/more apprehendable/less broken. [17:12]
asciilifeform: and quite a bit of incentive in opposite direction. [17:12]
davout: your point is basically that the fireman could have a tendency to pyromania? [17:14]
asciilifeform: davout: not simply this, but that these particular firemen do very little ASIDE FROM setting fires. [17:15]
asciilifeform: have, in fact, invented a means of 'putting out' fire that simply moves it, 10x amplified, to another spot. [17:15]
asciilifeform: rather like al schwartz's roach repellent which merely moves them to the neighbouring flat. [17:15]
davout: well, i think that this is a result of people being stupid and lazy, not really much more [17:16]
asciilifeform: davout: stupid and lazy come from misaligned incentives. [17:16]
asciilifeform: when stupidity, laziness, lead to starvation - they evaporate rapidly. [17:16]
davout: i blame 16gb of ram being seen as a small-sized server as the main cause of lazyness [17:17]
asciilifeform: the lack of incentive thing is elementary [17:19]
asciilifeform: for instance, what would happen if ben_vulpes were to fix the crud on a permanent, published basis ? rather than case-by-case [17:19]
asciilifeform: his firm would fold. [17:19]
asciilifeform: (nor, i suspect, could he do this even if he wanted to - would have to also fix 1,001 turdware libs that the sufferers use, each of which will never be fixed because some 3-man shop somewhere also needs to eat... etc) [17:20]
asciilifeform: << gotta understand, the number of people alive qualified to do this safely is probably < 100. [17:26]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 21:10 davout: ben_vulpes: as much as rails is in many ways retarded i tend to think that if this were true, folks would write websites in straight c [17:26]
asciilifeform: similar to reactor operators. [17:26]
asciilifeform: how many 'i wanna web site!111' folks are ready to pay for a year of 'there are 100 of me' time. [17:29]
asciilifeform: this is elementarily a debasement situation [17:30]
asciilifeform: 'we haven't enough bread, let's serve up 90%/10% sawdust/flour' [17:30]
davout: probably just as many people that are willing to pay $maxint to be able to shit in golden toilet [17:31]
asciilifeform: davout: fewer. [17:31]
asciilifeform: golden toilet is 'status object', can be displayed. [17:31]
davout: the point is that wtf do i need golden toilet for, i shit just as fine on a regular one! [17:31]
asciilifeform: aha, in software world they re-defined 'just fine' to include turdolade that won't even build, regular crashes, infections, whole shebang. [17:32]
asciilifeform: as per [17:32]
davout: if what i want is sell dildos online, and $framework runs on 15$/month box, wtf do i need a website that could run on a ti-89 for x10000 the price? [17:33]
asciilifeform: for absolutely nothing, esp. if you can offload the cost of your turd being pwned weekly, needing 16GB of ram, crashing daily, etc. on OTHER PEOPLE [17:33]
asciilifeform: like factory owner offloads pollution into the river. [17:34]
asciilifeform: imagine if programmers actually had to answer for their pollutants. [17:34]
asciilifeform: like chemists do. [17:34]
asciilifeform: currently these folx are living in a golden age of 'i'll take a shit as big as i like and somebody ~else~ will clean up' [17:35]
davout: i can see your parallel with the fiat world through the mere existence of the "technical debt" expression [17:35]
asciilifeform: aha. [17:35]
asciilifeform: the magic here is that this debt, like the other debt, is NEVER paid. [17:35]
asciilifeform: only gathers interest. [17:35]
davout: i'm not sure i agree with the generalization [17:36]
asciilifeform: think about ben_vulpes's docker [17:36]
asciilifeform: and all of the idiocies papered over by the use thereof [17:37]
asciilifeform: these will pile up, up. [17:37]
asciilifeform: certainly nobody is shoveling the shit in any other direction but - higher. [17:39]
asciilifeform: and higher. [17:39]
asciilifeform: in exactly what way does this process differ from fiatocalypse ? [17:39]
davout: while i don't care much for docker specifically, i don't think it's a good approach to blame people's stupidity and lazyness on *tools*. sure it makes it easier to be retarded. and if your point is that it makes every sane's person job harder, why not, i can agree with that [17:40]
asciilifeform: tools are not dropped by martians, but are made in response to incentives. [17:41]
asciilifeform: << classic orlol on subj [17:42]
davout: "have larger club, kill more enemies, rape moar of their daughters", pretty clear to me. "intentionnally shit in my own soup, so i can remain employed as a maker of fresh soup, as a general thing" is something i have a bit more trouble seeing though [17:43]
asciilifeform: 'Suppose you have a company that sets out to make a widget. Let's call it Company A. Its founders are all engineers, of an uncompromising sort, and the widget they design and manufacture is of tremendous longevity, durability and overall quality.... When consumers refuse to pay so much more than they feel they have to, Company A's widget fails in the marketplace, and the company is liquidated.' [17:43]
* davout reading [17:43]
asciilifeform: davout: it never looks like you're shitting in own soup, from the inside. [17:44]
asciilifeform: looks like 'bigger club' [17:44]
asciilifeform: << turns out, we had a thread! [17:51]
a111: Logged on 2014-07-16 19:04 mircea_popescu: "Suppose you have a company that sets out to make a widget. Let's call it Company A. Its founders are all engineers, of an uncompromising sort, and the widget they design and manufacture is of tremendous longevity, durability and overall quality." << hey check out orlov. [17:51]
davout: "while testing, kitting-out and packing would be performed by religious groups (in conservative states) and groups of people with alternative sexual orientations (in liberal ones)" <<< win [17:55]
davout: asciilifeform: interesting read indeed [17:57]
asciilifeform: 'company D' does not exist. no sane investor knowingly funds a 'company A' no sane engineer knowingly works for a 'company B' nobody sane at all is interested in involving himself in a 'company C'/ [17:58]
asciilifeform: . [17:59]
asciilifeform: which rounds out the list. [17:59]
Framedragger: framedr [18:44]
Framedragger: whoops ignore, window focus damn you [18:45]
trinque: $up Arathnim [19:07]
deedbot: Arathnim voiced for 30 minutes. [19:07]
trinque: Arathnim: hello, saw you in #lisp talking to gabriel_laddel [19:07]
Arathnim: trinque: Thanks. [19:09]
shinohai: [20:05]
BingoBoingo: << Give it a few hours [20:06]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 17:09 shinohai: paging BingoBoingo ... he has to write this one. [20:06]
shinohai: I have a draft of a Wendy's CC hack coverup going on. [20:07]
asciilifeform: later tell Arathnim [20:11]
gribble: The operation succeeded. [20:11]
BingoBoingo: << Microscopic cost per month if infrequently used [20:15]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 17:45 asciilifeform: prepaid mobiles exist in usa, extortionate cost. [20:15]
asciilifeform: << 0 cost if never used! just like yours and my dirigibles... [21:12]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-11 00:15 BingoBoingo: << Microscopic cost per month if infrequently used [21:12]
mircea_popescu: this channel is insufficiently dead omfg. [21:15]
mircea_popescu: << so basically this is shannonizing programmer. [21:17]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 20:43 davout: more like "oh, ruby 1.9 doesn't support this new 2.0 syntax, let's just sed it into sanity" [21:17]
mircea_popescu: << ahaha ok this is pretty lulzy. [21:18]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 20:46 ben_vulpes: i went to upgrade a docker installation and they pulled this gorgeous trick where they actually deny access to repos based on docker client version [21:18]
mircea_popescu: << well done, catching up :) [21:22]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 21:05 asciilifeform: my realization is that this kind of thing is EXACTLY same as fiatolade [21:22]
shinohai: later tell BingoBoingo [21:22]
gribble: The operation succeeded. [21:22]
mircea_popescu: << no, this is the problem. a bunch of idiots would have to earn bread different way and ben_vulpes would be allowed to do something less idiotic with his time. that's the problem whenever derps get the reins - they drive the ship ashore and someone's stuck fishing it back out. [21:23]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 21:07 asciilifeform: davout: see thread. if the mess did not exist, ben_vulpes et al would have to earn bread some other way [21:23]
mircea_popescu: the problem with this being that it ambiguously mixes two categories. one from outside can't distinguish between the pigs that drove the ship into mud and the poor souls trying to push it back out. they're all ~ equally covered in the same shit. [21:24]
mircea_popescu: and this is systematically the problem of the fucking state. by inventing "god's marriage" it fucks up the natural social hierarchy where some get all and most get none. and by inventing "bureaucracy" idem. keep reducing "inequality" which is to say - those who deserve to starve and those who deserve to puke - all get the same three peas those who deserve to bathe and those who deserve to burn - all in the lukewarm pit. [21:25]
mircea_popescu: a "brilliant fucking idea" for everyone except everyone that matters. hence democracy. [21:25]
mircea_popescu: << i never considered ruby/django/bullshit for trilema. neither did ANYONE who ever made a tmsr website, unless i'm missremembering. it's just not useful - if it were, i guess we'd be using it. [21:27]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 21:10 davout: ben_vulpes: as much as rails is in many ways retarded i tend to think that if this were true, folks would write websites in straight c [21:27]
* asciilifeform was unable - in spite of considerable effort - to run 'hello world' example in 'rails'. [21:29]
mircea_popescu: heh. [21:29]
* asciilifeform called upon a full-time master of subj, on retainer, who was unable to usefully comment. [21:29]
asciilifeform: thing is cursed by ze godz. [21:29]
mircea_popescu: ahahaha [21:30]
mircea_popescu: << word. [21:32]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 21:14 davout: your point is basically that the fireman could have a tendency to pyromania? [21:32]
mircea_popescu: << also word. [21:32]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 21:15 asciilifeform: have, in fact, invented a means of 'putting out' fire that simply moves it, 10x amplified, to another spot. [21:32]
mircea_popescu: that's exactly how it fucking works. "fixed" by moving, but accentuated. "win-win". [21:32]
mircea_popescu: medicine works a lot like this, in principle but with smaller parameters. law works precisely the same way. [21:33]
mircea_popescu: << you're young yet. [21:34]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 21:31 davout: the point is that wtf do i need golden toilet for, i shit just as fine on a regular one! [21:34]
mircea_popescu: << well, various webscum will derp about how "website doesn't look correct". will lose you all the business of $5 bucks, they fuck themselves manually. [21:38]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 21:33 davout: if what i want is sell dildos online, and $framework runs on 15$/month box, wtf do i need a website that could run on a ti-89 for x10000 the price? [21:38]
mircea_popescu: << amusingly, iirc that shoe is actually mentioned in this very log, and ~nowhere else on the "entire" www. [21:41]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-11 00:05 shinohai: [21:41]
shinohai: I remembered it being mentioned somewhere but have yet to find the ref [21:42]
mircea_popescu: might have been in the older-than-btcbase logs. [21:42]
pete_dushenski: << ac isn't 'mission critical'. if it goes down for 15 minutes or even 5 hours, you might be a little sweaty and grumpy, but your hard drives aren't so flexible, especially if they get caught mid-write with their pants down (but ianae) [22:16]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 16:37 mircea_popescu: yeah but you want the bridge to be wide enough. 1kw is not practically useful - inductive charge for an average ac unit for instance easily beats 5kw [22:16]
pete_dushenski: << i lolled [22:16]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 16:40 ben_vulpes: davout: triggered [22:16]
pete_dushenski: << now ~that's~ the business. will defo be looking into these at next place (2017 sometime) [22:17]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 16:40 mircea_popescu: << ftr, very reasonable 12kw units available. 4k what's that, half a weekend trip. [22:17]
pete_dushenski: << hulked. (or was it thieled?) [22:17]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 17:05 shinohai: <<< bwhahaha Gawker filers for Bankruptcy [22:17]
pete_dushenski: aha ben had it [22:18]
pete_dushenski: << seems like a lot of busywork to circumvent own rule, which i suppose only goes to show that is the controlling point. head would never do this to self, ergo no head. [22:19]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 18:02 mircea_popescu: it's dogvomit, not a vole. it has no head. [22:19]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 17:58 asciilifeform: be transmitted over a U.S. border, then legally the NSA/CIA/SCS will claim that it then falls into an international transmission and that they are justified in performing an intercept, even though it is a domestic call, but because it was shot out of the United States over an international loopback. Another wrinkle is because this loopback to the UK, the British government will also intercept it at the loopba [22:19]
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: 1 set of rules for public/low-cleared grunts, another - for eloi. elementary. [22:20]
pete_dushenski: this is meta-nsa argument [22:21]
asciilifeform: meta-nsa ~exists~. even has own www site... see l0gz. [22:21]
pete_dushenski: ie. 'rsa pill really exists, just you wait until they drop bomb' [22:21]
pete_dushenski: $google trilema meta-nsa [22:22]
deedbot: << NSA stores metadata of millions of web users for up to a year, secret ... | << No Such lAbs (S.NSA), April 2016 Statement on Trilema - A blog by ... | << Phew, NSA Is Just Collecting Metadata. (You Should Still Worry ... [22:22]
asciilifeform: pissing on law is a pretty elementary superpower. [22:22]
pete_dushenski: well that search was useless [22:22]
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: but then why use superpower so inefficiently ? it's like 'i have x-ray vision, but only when i look at this angled mirror at you' [22:23]
pete_dushenski: why not just look directly at specimen ? [22:23]
mod6: pete_dushenski: Gordie Howe died :/ [22:24]
asciilifeform: because you want to maintain the pretense of 'rule of law' ? [22:24]
pete_dushenski: mod6: eh no way [22:24]
asciilifeform: mod6: who was that [22:24]
mod6: Yeah, he was 88. [22:24]
mod6: asciilifeform: legendary Canadian hockey player. [22:24]
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: but that begs the question : why is this loop-di-loop necessary to maintain the pretense ? [22:25]
pete_dushenski: and does it even maintain the pretense ? [22:25]
pete_dushenski: hartford walers star iirc [22:25]
pete_dushenski: back when that team was even a thing [22:25]
mod6: Red Wings [22:25]
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: considering that the whole ministry hasn't been closed down and personnel - jailed as members of a criminal org - i'd say the pretense is maintained. [22:26]
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski suppose you wanna fuck during those 5 hours! [22:26]
mod6: He did spend 1 year with the Whalers [22:26]
pete_dushenski: mod6: last year too. i think i mighta had that card, which is why it rang that memory's bell [22:27]
mircea_popescu: lol [22:27]
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: or go for a 10km walk for ice cream! [22:27]
mircea_popescu: kr [22:27]
mircea_popescu: or* call girl's bestie "hey you got power ? ok if we come over to fuck at your place ?" [22:28]
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: not exactly... [22:28]
pete_dushenski: inmates in asylum also maintain pretense of sanity ? [22:28]
pete_dushenski: because everyone else on the outside is pointing and laughing [22:29]
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: if i was at that life stage (yes, it's coming!) then i will have one garage for five cars and another of ~equal size~ for back-up power [22:30]
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: asylum with infinite funding and heavy weapons. [22:30]
pete_dushenski: weapons too heavy to lift and paper of such poor quality even the knock-off artists on the other side of the pacific don't want it [22:30]
pete_dushenski: nice story, but just a story [22:31]
asciilifeform: and them packetz diddle themselves aha lol. [22:31]
pete_dushenski: maybe i'm thick but how is packet diddling 'heavy weapons' ? [22:33]
pete_dushenski: unless i'm mistaken, this is within alf's modest ability, and he is not statal superpower [22:34]
asciilifeform: at every fiber landfall? [22:34]
pete_dushenski: any, not every [22:35]
asciilifeform: or any [22:36]
asciilifeform: i can't speak for pete_dushenski , but i don't have a diddler staff hut at even one... [22:36]
mircea_popescu: soon enough, once we complete the uti. [22:37]
mircea_popescu: am i the only one that's very amused by this joke ? guess so huh. [22:37]
mod6: lol [22:41]
mod6: thats 2x, gotta be careful or it'll stick :D [22:42]
mircea_popescu: lol [22:42]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you also don't have to dispense shitty cheese to a bunch of deeply retarded, profoundly useless, schmucks with pretensions. [22:53]
mircea_popescu: you're acting as if they're doing that, or any other thing, for fucking fun. it's not for fun. they're doing that, like everything else, for the same reason : they perceive they gotta do something dunno how to do anything useful or effectual and so this is what's left. [22:54]
mircea_popescu: the optionality of the state is just about zero. [22:55]
mircea_popescu: throughout. no exceptions. no meta-bullshit. from petraeus to the last grunt, zero, nada. nothing. [22:55]
* pete_dushenski has seen this utter dearth of optionality with own eyes, from inside. 'no fun' doesn't begin to describe it. [23:08]
pete_dushenski: the mere suggestion that the state can ~do~ things that private individuals can is misleading and farcical. [23:10]
pete_dushenski: 'golden toilet' is only a thing because state can't even make basic toilet. it doesn't ~want~ toilet made of precious metals, it just can't find its way to a more efficient solution. [23:10]
ben_vulpes: << what is a "website" [23:11]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-11 01:27 mircea_popescu: << i never considered ruby/django/bullshit for trilema. neither did ANYONE who ever made a tmsr website, unless i'm missremembering. it's just not useful - if it were, i guess we'd be using it. [23:11]
ben_vulpes: << /me squints and points at the funny frenchman [23:12]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 21:10 davout: ben_vulpes: as much as rails is in many ways retarded i tend to think that if this were true, folks would write websites in straight c [23:13]
ben_vulpes: i'm a peripherial acquaintance with another cult that occasionally writes, say, templating languages in c. for use from c. [23:14]
ben_vulpes: << another take on this: the only constraint on complexity is design and discipline. [23:17]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 21:12 asciilifeform: davout: my observation was that there is ~0 incentive to make wwwtronic systems lighter/more consistent/more apprehendable/less broken. [23:17]
ben_vulpes: complexity in software, that is [23:18]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: noshit.jpg [23:18]
ben_vulpes: man the 'not quite emacs' keybindings in weechat are killing me [23:18]
asciilifeform: my observation was that there is STRONG anti-incentive. [23:18]
ben_vulpes: yeah but more like diesel engine and less like mortgage origination [23:18]
ben_vulpes: americans think /healthcare/ is going to bury them in costs. they have no idea what the maintenance cost of the past 2 decades is going to be. what a burden poorly written software is on a business. [23:19]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: ~nobody sees it as 'maintenance costs', but as 'job program.' [23:20]
ben_vulpes: the windows shop approach is not at all bad from a resourcing perspective. 'software is complicated and sucks and we need a budget for maintaining ours. may as well just pick technologies we can staff for 60k/yr/butt and allocate integer butts.' [23:20]
asciilifeform: great until MOTHERFUCKER WON'T BUILD NO MATTER WHAT [23:20]
asciilifeform: because some dickless wonder 'patched' [23:20]
ben_vulpes: oh i am waiting for the great implosion of unwrangleable complexity [23:21]
asciilifeform: meanwhile, [23:21]
asciilifeform: 'All existing phones in the holding cells were replaced mid year. The previous telephones were equipped with a hand-set which created a number of issues. Our primary objective was to allow prisoners telephone access while minimizing risk to staff and prisoners. On many occasions prisoners would forcibly remove the cord and handset from the telephone housing. The newly installed telephones have no cord or handset which, in turn, mini [23:21]
asciilifeform: mizes security, injury risk and maintenance costs.' [23:21]
ben_vulpes: if it leaves me eating dust and my children picking pockets i will go to the street gladly having seen it [23:21]
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes like wotpaste. [23:24]
ben_vulpes: no actually. [23:25]
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes also, the problem with healthcare isn't the cost per se. it's that it distinguishes between people. they have a serious problem with any sort of "reality comes home" situation where difference between people may be forced from outside. [23:26]
mircea_popescu: cost is just a proxy for this. they don't perceive the same capacity from "it", mostly because htey're imbeciles and will perceive my cock when it's sliding in and no sooner. which is why they talk of that not this. [23:26]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: elaborate ? [23:27]
mircea_popescu: on which part ? [23:27]
asciilifeform: which difference between people [23:27]
ben_vulpes: that some can afford to live and some mustest die [23:27]
mircea_popescu: we both fuck the same sick girl. i don't care and you die of a brain abscess. [23:27]
asciilifeform: so? routine. [23:28]
asciilifeform: sorta how death worx [23:28]
mircea_popescu: this is like some people buying cars that take them places and some other people buying cars that take them to the morgue [23:28]
asciilifeform: aha. and this also is sop [23:28]
mircea_popescu: "the people" are up in arms about this. not permissibru. [23:28]
asciilifeform: recall, the car and nothing else caps the mtbf of usaschwitz inmate at something like 200 yrs [23:29]
ben_vulpes: point i was seeking to make is that as much as usians like to bitch about cost of health insurance and what it doesn't cover, they have no idea what pain is lurking in the near future [23:29]
mircea_popescu: what future. [23:29]
ben_vulpes: who knows how many knight capitals are waiting. [23:29]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: 'Colt Health and Life Insurance Co.' [23:29]
* asciilifeform subscriber [23:30]
* ben_vulpes not discussing asciilifeforms [23:30]
asciilifeform: afaik it takes everyone. [23:30]
asciilifeform: (unless you are an elephant, and may need larger calibre) [23:30]
ben_vulpes: now i need a sophistry gas mask [23:30]
mircea_popescu: alf's favourite approach is to discuss something vaguely related :D [23:31]
mircea_popescu: but in a lot of detail! makes up for distance through depth! [23:31]
ben_vulpes: anyways there's a whole infection to deploy between today and a world of impoverished fiatcorps. [23:32]
ben_vulpes: path there will be bumpy for folks. in the above and other ways. [23:32]
mircea_popescu: if history's any guide, fiatcorps could forever buy russia. at any rate the byzantines could buy asia. according to them at any rate. [23:32]
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in the great uszimbabwe, [23:37]
asciilifeform: 'A local apartment com-munity had become a problem with unsecured vacant units, garbage, graffiti, attractive nuisances, and blight. The owner also routinely rented condemned units that had no power (cord was run from other units). Neighboring owners complained of rodents coming from the unattended landscaping and units. Squatters were found in units by the police department. Owner was cited...' [23:37]
mircea_popescu: "attractive nuisances" ? ie, non-boring party ? [23:41]
asciilifeform: aha. [23:41]
mircea_popescu: derps. [23:41]
mircea_popescu: apparently, it's "anything that may attract a child", and outright a defense in tresspass! [23:42]
mircea_popescu: that country is fucking nuts. [23:42]
asciilifeform: recall the famous band-saw case. [23:42]
mircea_popescu: "unenclosed pools, machinery or stacks of building materials" that present "an irresistible lure" omfg what the everloving fuck. [23:43]
mircea_popescu: if your kid goes on my property YOU PAY ME! not the fucking other way around omfg! [23:43]
mircea_popescu: and this is all post 1990, too. fucking place went to shit with moscow in tandem. [23:45]
mircea_popescu: scandalous. [23:45]
asciilifeform: hey, they even had, e.g., [23:47]
asciilifeform: ^ the infamous skylight case [23:47]
mircea_popescu: << state agencies, of course, are immune by law. [23:58]
asciilifeform: not only, [23:58]
asciilifeform: but in - afaik - all of usa, folks who 'cause' the death of policeman by, say, running away and then he crashed his cruiser, are tried for murder. [23:59]
mircea_popescu: policeman is a shitstain best shot on sight. [23:59]
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