Forum logs for 06 Sep 2016

Monday, 16 March, Year 12 d.Tr. | Author:

mircea_popescu:	http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160906/from:44/to:44#44 << we're on it, redundancy is the only solution and it's being implemented. dun sweat it.	[00:01]
mircea_popescu:	phf ^	[00:01]
hanbot:	>24 hrs of rain in BsAs = auto power outages. where's the unesco world stupidity heritage designation already.	[00:11]
mircea_popescu:	lol you were out ?	[00:12]
hanbot:	yeah. i cooked by candlelight.	[00:13]
mircea_popescu:	CHAR(111,108,111,108,111,115,104,101,114) = ololsher ?	[00:13]
mircea_popescu:	hanbot there are worse fates!	[00:17]
mircea_popescu:	http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160906/from:62/to:62#62 << the same thing is in principle true of cryptography generally (funny how it just keeps coming back to this again and again) : "no matter how long you make your key, it can be factored by adding more computers". this is true but it's up to you to make it irrelevant. the reason whenever someone does manage to ddos trilema / qntra / etc i tend to just wait is because time	[00:20]
mircea_popescu:	is working in my favour, and that is because their stack offers sufficient leverage so that the costs mount for attacker sufficiently faster than for me.	[00:20]
mircea_popescu:	this is what "works" means in this context and this is what lisp stack will have to satisfy to be not-toy.	[00:20]
trinque:	aha, certainly can't use because it's an amulet of past golden age.	[00:23]
mircea_popescu:	can, but at home.	[00:24]
mircea_popescu:	anyway, not to discourage research or anything.	[00:26]
danielpbarron:	http://i.imgur.com/X9EIOqQ.jpg << in adding more news	[00:29]
trinque:	ye gods, danielpbarron's couch has a rat king	[00:30]
danielpbarron:	not mine	[00:31]
mircea_popescu:	ahahaah these people are so cute, "We are not racist and we are not Front National [the far-right party of Marine Le Pen]. We understand there is a humanitarian question here, that there are people living in misery, but we are living with incivility and a growing feeling of insecurity, Jean-Pierre Clipet, of the FDSEA farmers union, said."	[00:34]
mircea_popescu:	THEY JUST WANT TO!	[00:34]
BingoBoingo:	trinque: You ought to know danielpbarron's leather couches have a buckskin finish	[00:35]
pete_dushenski:	mircea_popescu: they're savvy enough to know how alt-left media will frame them. "oh you don't want to date shaniqua because you don't like her as a person ? racist!"	[00:41]
mircea_popescu:	they're however not savvy enough to realise that the fact that nobody wants them means exactly this - that nobody wants them.	[00:42]
mircea_popescu:	somehow they bought into the whole sacred life thing.	[00:42]
mircea_popescu:	"the government" should intervene to make sure that calais looks like what group A would, rather than what group B would ? da fuck is this ?	[00:43]
mircea_popescu:	"oh, because group A failed to repress groub B because they thought they had a deal with the government".	[00:43]
mircea_popescu:	don't fucking make deals with the government.	[00:43]
pete_dushenski:	to the extent that they're 'playing by the rules of the prison', it's sop at this point	[00:43]
pete_dushenski:	obv, no one told them that their gov was indeed cancelled	[00:43]
pete_dushenski:	and any 'social contracts' flowing therefrom, or perceived to be flowing therefrom	[00:44]
mircea_popescu:	how is their government cancelled ? it's working exactly as they intended it to work.	[00:44]
mircea_popescu:	"no favoritism" they wanted and "equality" they wanted, and "down with corruption and old boys networks", they wanted.	[00:44]
mircea_popescu:	well what, this only applies to other people ? turns out according to government, migrants have more right to calais than whoever kulaks are complaining.	[00:45]
mircea_popescu:	for the very simple reason - the migrants need the government more and ask it for less. no brainer.	[00:45]
mircea_popescu:	think of it as town-sized eminent domain, if you will. govt improving the land occupation.	[00:45]
pete_dushenski:	'their' government being the part that was cancelled. they created frankenstein, now he lives independently from the good doctor.	[00:46]
mircea_popescu:	heh. i have nfi how they imagined "decolonialism" will work out as anything other than "bitch, you're the african now".	[00:46]
mircea_popescu:	oh wait, wait, because if they say there's no social hierarchy there... won't be any. right, i forgot.	[00:47]
pete_dushenski:	just like in times of giza snow pyramids!	[00:47]
* pete_dushenski	recently just learned of sikh practices around 'equality', specifically with regards to naming (all girls are surnamed 'kaur', all boys 'singh' until married). no moar caste sistam u guise!	[00:49]
pete_dushenski:	the revolutions just keep revolving don't they.	[00:49]
ben_vulpes:	http://theloadstar.co.uk/crisis-calais-hauliers-fear-new-road-blockade-will-bring-attacks-truckers/ << related	[00:49]
ben_vulpes:	http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3404695/Demolition-Jungle-finally-begins-Bulldozers-tear-Calais-notorious-tent-city-despite-protests-migrants.html << the bulldozing nominally began in january	[00:50]
mircea_popescu:	iirc the sikh thing is a few centuries old.	[00:51]
pete_dushenski:	yup. like 10 centuries old.	[00:53]
mircea_popescu:	anyway. there's a reason india amounted to ~nothing throughout its lengthy history.	[00:53]
pete_dushenski:	sorry, 10th ~guru~, Guru Gobind Singh, started the sikh naming convention in 17th century	[00:55]
BingoBoingo:	Oh Phyllis Schlafly is dead.	[01:00]
BingoBoingo:	$up fiddlerwoaroof	[01:05]
pete_dushenski:	http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/whitewater/stories/wwtr940527.htm << oldie but goodie on hillary's deep knowledge of the cattle biz, particularly their, ahem, future. couldn't find it in the logs otherwise, worth correcting.	[02:30]
* pete_dushenski	returns to watching doped up and remarkably virile looking chinamen beat up on scrawny, malnourished, and probably 'cleaner' nodicks in 2012 olympics men's doubles badminton finals. gotta love the drive of the children of parents who knew famine.	[02:47]
Framedragger:	hey wb phf!	[04:54]
Framedragger:	i'm sure you're right, no bot would have survived. wonder if you could use sth like fastnetmon (if it can eat your logs or if you can format them accordingly?) to analyse the DoS / sql attack further..	[04:54]
Framedragger:	fwiw i stand by http://trilema.com/forum-logs-for-30-aug-2016#2158276 - just have multiple things - and maybe in the future some system for autosyncing logs between places?..	[04:55]
a111:	Logged on 2016-08-30 11:25 Framedragger: mircea_popescu: and i'll implement these things even if phf's bot becomes more reliable or w/e, because, decentralization!1	[04:55]
Framedragger:	how was burning man, then?	[04:55]
thestringpuller:	diana_coman: welcome shinohai to the mess of planeshift legacy code << I thought Chetty had gutted 90% of it.	[10:05]
thestringpuller:	the only thing left was the CS gfx stuff which is harder to gut	[10:06]
jurov:	lol thestringpuller	[10:10]
shinohai:	oh hai jurov, thx for your help I thought I borked something up again xD	[10:11]
diana_coman:	thestringpuller, the swamp is deep	[10:14]
jurov:	shinohai.. well it's me who is borkt. if you remember me year ago complaining of allergy...this time it's even worse	[10:16]
shinohai:	O.o Allegra!	[10:16]
BingoBoingo:	Nah, Cetirizine!	[10:33]
jurov:	oh that stopped working. then desloratadine too	[10:34]
BingoBoingo:	desloratadine always sucked	[10:36]
BingoBoingo:	You could try Atarax	[10:36]
BingoBoingo:	Sorry, Hydroxyzine!	[10:37]
deedbot:	http://qntra.net/2016/09/hussein-bahamas-cancels-duterte-meeting-at-asean-over-hurt-feelings/ << Qntra - Hussein Bahamas Cancels Duterte Meeting At ASEAN Over Hurt Feelings	[10:44]
Framedragger:	[testing more encoding madness for logs, plz ignore: Вопрос]	[11:03]
Framedragger:	http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/221218755BB59C166BD88435267638C04F757D5630064CA207D228B4A7520F57 << phuctored through a known factor with e being prime - pretty neat	[11:18]
Framedragger:	(is deedbot no longer relaying new phuctorings?)	[11:19]
deedbot:	http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/221218755BB59C166BD88435267638C04F757D5630064CA207D228B4A7520F57 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 165547811878389518608960162514440716527114124066258436669228493533987960317264094824576978438356666816304376509581147804207100789679550973366456163215055170915965745483899503094713195377098763883197788184283604067059487100451243802376158134871006515406296465375549052004071197012049372768297343983234273917627 divides RS	[11:19]
trinque:	Framedragger: calm down	[11:20]
Framedragger:	my english is not sophisticated enough to mediate a genuine point of curiosity without any implied frustration whatsoever	[11:21]
asciilifeform:	Nepal, Bagmati, Kathmandu << lel	[11:21]
asciilifeform:	since when did they even have a net pipe.	[11:21]
mircea_popescu:	since china.	[11:22]
asciilifeform:	mega-discount chinese pipe, apparently. box is not currently up.	[11:24]
mircea_popescu:	http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160906/from:145/to:145#145 <<< which reminds me, all the white knight butthurt at the slow, crushing discovery that an allegedly-black-certainly-male candidate is significantly more acceptable to the geenral public than an allegedly-female-certainly-white one.	[11:24]
mircea_popescu:	"oh but they have all these shesidents in yurp!!!11" "you're not yurp."	[11:24]
mircea_popescu:	the presiglassial ceiling!	[11:26]
deedbot:	http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/D02C7EB6E3B29FB9D1CD6BC815A0F28C162095115E62CAC36D79AD5D587D0910 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 165547811878389518608960162514440716527114124066258436669228493533987960317264094824576978438356666816304376509581147804207100789679550973366456163215055170915965745483899503094713195377098763883197788184283604067059487100451243802376158134871006515406296465375549052004071197012049372768297343983234273917627 divides RS	[11:27]
deedbot:	http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/221218755BB59C166BD88435267638C04F757D5630064CA207D228B4A7520F57 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 165547811878389518608960162514440716527114124066258436669228493533987960317264094824576978438356666816304376509581147804207100789679550973366456163215055170915965745483899503094713195377098763883197788184283604067059487100451243802376158134871006515406296465375549052004071197012049372768297343983234273917627 divides RS	[11:27]
asciilifeform:	the shared factor, 78.188.162.184 << Turkey, Osmaniye, Osmaniye.	[11:28]
Framedragger:	three shared factors between nepal and turkey	[11:30]
mircea_popescu:	BingoBoingo http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/t1neb/?raw=true << longshot, dunno if acceptabru.	[11:31]
Framedragger:	(i meant, one shared factor between three places)	[11:31]
asciilifeform:	https://www.worldlink.com.np << lulzy.	[11:32]
Framedragger:	(ah no, the kathmandu one is repeated twice)	[11:33]
mircea_popescu:	raju patel!	[11:33]
mircea_popescu:	ok this is pretty lulzy	[11:33]
PeterL:	http://reason.com/blog/2016/09/06/cash-means-freedom-which-is-why-so-new -- Not really news, just a good summary of the current situation	[11:35]
mircea_popescu:	and in other repeated twice news, http://67.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lox3somQ5C1ql4hl8o1_500.gif	[11:35]
mircea_popescu:	PeterL sure though i think the bureaucrats are flattering themselves. let them try to "eliminate cash" i say.	[11:36]
thestringpuller:	PeterL: well airports and trainstations are cash chokepoints right now	[11:39]
mircea_popescu:	http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160906/from:150/to:150#150 << if you go to all the trouble of building multiple freestanding items, why then vulnerabilize them so. the idea is to take the bikeshed out, not import it forever.	[11:39]
thestringpuller:	best way to move cash is to put it in lock box, and ship it with a tracking number to wherever you're gonna show up	[11:40]
PeterL:	so I was thinking about hawala/wotcoin, would it be reasonable to make some sort of client that eats RSA messages in a sort of [date amount unit RSAkeyIssuer FromRSAkey ToRSAKey] set protocol? each Issuer would have a DB with balances they see, and using WoT could connect multiple issuers?	[11:40]
BingoBoingo:	mircea_popescu: Imma have to think on that submission	[11:40]
mircea_popescu:	no prob.	[11:40]
thestringpuller:	PeterL: I've already tried in practice. The failpoint is reconciliation.	[11:40]
mircea_popescu:	PeterL you mean like bitcoin ?	[11:40]
PeterL:	use bitcoin to reconcile?	[11:41]
asciilifeform:	PeterL: we had a thread...	[11:41]
asciilifeform:	$s wotcoin	[11:41]
a111:	7 results for "wotcoin", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=wotcoin	[11:41]
mircea_popescu:	...	[11:41]
thestringpuller:	PeterL: then how are you going to reconcile cash?	[11:41]
PeterL:	well, like bitcoin but without the blockchain bloat	[11:41]
mircea_popescu:	ahbahaha	[11:41]
mircea_popescu:	oh, you thin kthat's just there because grues hate you / were bored one day ?	[11:41]
PeterL:	reconcile cash by sending bitcoin between people	[11:41]
mircea_popescu:	you can already do this in, eg, eulora.	[11:42]
thestringpuller:	PeterL: what do you mean?!?!? Cash doesn't magicall transport itself.	[11:42]
asciilifeform:	PeterL: we had a 'what if gossipd also had a multidimensional hawala thing' thread	[11:42]
asciilifeform:	it turned out that no one has the 100kg of lsd necessary to properly digest the idea.	[11:42]
asciilifeform:	(and that it is a 'solution in search of problem')	[11:42]
mircea_popescu:	http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160906/from:161/to:161#161 << try moving to a cold, desolate place. almost always fixes this.	[11:43]
mircea_popescu:	decade or two later you can even try returning.	[11:43]
PeterL:	I was thinking it could be used to facilitate micropayments, things too small to deserve blockchain space	[11:43]
mircea_popescu:	and... eulora...already... lol	[11:43]
mircea_popescu:	you can pay one satoshi instantly and without blockchain bloat. today. go, do.	[11:44]
PeterL:	well, yes, eulora could be one of the nodes in such a network	[11:44]
thestringpuller:	yes lets put on our VR headset to send my bff 5 bucks for a beer :D	[11:44]
mircea_popescu:	PeterL and this doesn't suggest to you the solution in search of problem angle ?	[11:44]
PeterL:	I was just trying to think of a way to standardize between multiple nodes	[11:44]
mircea_popescu:	you jus' wanna turn nodes into networks ?	[11:44]
Framedragger:	asciilifeform: multidimensional in what way? simply that it'd have many parameters or that there'd be many cliques / 'issuers' / whateva?	[11:44]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: 'i want to send penny without bank' 'use my bank'	[11:44]
asciilifeform:	Framedragger: 0 global state.	[11:44]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform "i want to send penny wtihout bank" "bitcoin" "oh, without blockchaion, maybe little bank" "use little bank" "no, all these things have the disadvantage that they don't include my 3yo self in a central manner sufficiently"	[11:45]
mircea_popescu:	apparently this is a phase.	[11:45]
Framedragger:	asciilifeform: aha ok.	[11:45]
asciilifeform:	Framedragger: for some reason i cannot turn up the thread. but idea was something like a crackpot generalization of the idea of altcoins, i.e. every node can issue obligatory notes, if you will, in whatever qty, and their worth rests wholly on wot graph relations of that node, and strictly to his peers	[11:46]
Framedragger:	ahhh.	[11:46]
asciilifeform:	Framedragger: iirc nothing further came from this line of thought, to date, it is only interesting as gedankenexperiment.	[11:46]
Framedragger:	i recall someone attempting an implementation / spec of this 'everyone has their own currency' thing. just with wot being less central to it, perhaps	[11:47]
Framedragger:	which still makes it interesting :) but yeah ok	[11:47]
mircea_popescu:	it was common scammer fare cca 2013.	[11:47]
asciilifeform:	without wot it devolves into a not very funny joke	[11:47]
asciilifeform:	a la 'ripple' etc.	[11:47]
mircea_popescu:	right after solidcoin pos stuff.	[11:47]
Framedragger:	agree.	[11:47]
asciilifeform:	with wot, it is, at best, a mechanized version of how banking worked pre-1700s or so.	[11:48]
mircea_popescu:	"mechanized" is stupidified, generally. careful with mecanizing stuff for the sake of feeling like you just came out of a us college.	[11:49]
asciilifeform:	the reason i occasionally return to the idea in my notebook is that it is the only solution i know of thus far to the idiocy of mining.	[11:49]
mircea_popescu:	it's the feeling of "i've just been indescribably stupid."	[11:49]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform even with it mining won't go away.	[11:49]
mircea_popescu:	in fact, mining is included in the gossipd implementation of privacy re-read the example given there to phf.	[11:49]
asciilifeform:	link?	[11:50]
mircea_popescu:	that "i heard from X and Y" is exactly mining.	[11:50]
mircea_popescu:	lemme dig it up then.	[11:50]
asciilifeform:	i am speaking of 'mining' in the bitcoin sense, where a stranger can connect and shoot your difficulty to pluto and leave, etc.	[11:55]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-05-16#1467087 << and around	[11:55]
a111:	Logged on 2016-05-16 14:04 mircea_popescu: similarily, the ACTUAL order of message, and the presence or absence of "j/k" messages in there can a) never be established beyond reasonable doubt and b) can only be usefully guessed by people. which is to say, well connected, intelligent nodes.	[11:55]
asciilifeform:	( as per http://trilema.com/2014/the-woes-of-altcoin-or-why-there-is-no-such-thing-as-cryptocurrencies )	[11:56]
mircea_popescu:	yeah, as contemplated in gossipd there is no difficulty. but mining, still exists.	[11:56]
mircea_popescu:	ie, what makes my knowledge secure and the third party's knowledge dubious is... the people who i know to mine it \for me.	[11:56]
asciilifeform:	in that sense BingoBoingo pulling weeds in his corn field is 'mining'	[11:56]
mircea_popescu:	no no. the sense is correct.	[11:56]
asciilifeform:	gossip model does not rely on 'arms race' with hardware and mains current.	[11:57]
mircea_popescu:	true.	[11:57]
mircea_popescu:	at least on appearances. but now model what someone trying to sybil would be doing.	[11:58]
mircea_popescu:	the armsrace is still there subtlier.	[11:58]
asciilifeform:	he'd be pulling own cock.	[11:58]
asciilifeform:	and, at best, ninjashogunning.	[11:58]
mircea_popescu:	no, he's be using the algo that beat sedol to create as many accounts as his electricity can power, and fuzz everyone out.	[11:58]
asciilifeform:	(how else would there be any connection between the sybils and actual people?)	[11:58]
mircea_popescu:	you understand HOW music changed from music to idiocy, yes ?	[11:59]
asciilifeform:	what 'accounts'.	[11:59]
asciilifeform:	why would you or i wot to any of him.	[11:59]
mircea_popescu:	how do you currently distinguish between two names ?	[11:59]
asciilifeform:	i get an rsa-signed 'hi, i'ma fella named mircea' etc.	[11:59]
asciilifeform:	same as everybody.	[11:59]
mircea_popescu:	and how do you distinguish between indiancandy and covertress ?	[12:00]
asciilifeform:	same way i distinguish between the birds in my oak tree.	[12:00]
mircea_popescu:	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-17#1523269 << re-read this, and think about it. if i want to attack you, i make literally a trillion names then i sort them in binary tries like that then i send them to chatter at you.	[12:00]
a111:	Logged on 2016-08-17 17:02 mircea_popescu: Framedragger the reason there's a lot of credence in phf's perhaps harsh criticism is http://trilema.com/2014/how-to-make-money-on-the-internet-while-pretending-you-know-what-youre-talking-about-and-accumulating-a-legion-of-mindless-followers-for-fun-and-profit/	[12:00]
asciilifeform:	(for the most part, i don't. except that one time there was this odd parrot-like... etc)	[12:00]
mircea_popescu:	your brain will pick patterns, and now i managed to get a few inside through fuzzing.	[12:00]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: we already did this exercise. in 1990s. it was called spam.	[12:01]
asciilifeform:	and resulted in folks quitting email.	[12:01]
mircea_popescu:	no, we did not.	[12:01]
asciilifeform:	if there were 10,001 covertresses, i would read ~none~ of them	[12:01]
asciilifeform:	and make it stick.	[12:01]
mircea_popescu:	spam was always point-driven. it's easy to fight the man who wants to steal.	[12:01]
mircea_popescu:	yes. but how do you distinguish the one that isn't, from the one that merely appears not to be, from the other 9999 ?	[12:01]
mircea_popescu:	seriously read that 2nd link.	[12:02]
asciilifeform:	i won't. as knuth does not.	[12:02]
mircea_popescu:	so then your gossipd just died ?	[12:02]
asciilifeform:	quite alive. all of my peerings with actual people still work.	[12:02]
mircea_popescu:	"actual people" you knew from before.	[12:02]
mircea_popescu:	you gotta constantly get new girlfriends.	[12:03]
mircea_popescu:	the moment you stop this, you're too old for life.	[12:03]
asciilifeform:	spam raises the bar to 'i want to be a man', yes. but cannot raise it infinitely high.	[12:03]
mircea_popescu:	well if you won't read and address the points there we'll have to stop here, i'm not restating it.	[12:03]
asciilifeform:	i did read.	[12:04]
mircea_popescu:	then address the points.	[12:04]
asciilifeform:	$s razi	[12:04]
a111:	3 results for "razi", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=razi	[12:04]
asciilifeform:	http://btcbase.org/log/2014-10-16#876727 << where i address the point.	[12:05]
a111:	Logged on 2014-10-16 00:01 asciilifeform: consider ancient scholars like the persian Razi.	[12:05]
mircea_popescu:	the thing you do not wish to say, because you do not wish it to be turned to dust under scrutiny, is that razi is either dead, or else depends on sub-razis-1 through n	[12:05]
mircea_popescu:	who, perhaps, in turn.	[12:05]
asciilifeform:	no, let's do it	[12:05]
mircea_popescu:	the weakness of this scheme is exactly as described : fuzzing and the binary tree propagates a few through it all the way to you.	[12:05]
asciilifeform:	to get through 10,000,001 enemy meat puppets, the would-be proselyte will have to fight his way through jungle, desert, etc.	[12:06]
mircea_popescu:	nobody gives a shit about him.	[12:06]
mircea_popescu:	the discussion is carried from your pov. you observe an endless field of worms. what next ?	[12:06]
asciilifeform:	quite certainly not. but if he is found worthy by all concentric N circles of L_n wot arount razi, then he is worth testing.	[12:07]
Framedragger:	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-06#1534898 << i guess that would then be a truly single point of failure, in terms of historical reliability, hm. not an easy problem	[12:07]
a111:	Logged on 2016-09-06 15:39 mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160906/from:150/to:150#150 << if you go to all the trouble of building multiple freestanding items, why then vulnerabilize them so. the idea is to take the bikeshed out, not import it forever.	[12:07]
mircea_popescu:	Framedragger people want, sensibly, to reduce the things they worry about. however, they often get confused in between things they could not worry about but have to, and things they can't not worry about but don't have to.	[12:08]
mircea_popescu:	this difference is central, and obviously not only elided in school - deliberately buried in school.	[12:08]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: ~entire point of wotronics is to eliminate 'field of worms as far as the eye can see in all directions' as a thing of this world.	[12:08]
mircea_popescu:	there's a reason you feed your horse with your own hand, even if you don't have to.	[12:08]
Framedragger:	hm, true.	[12:08]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform no, that's the whole delusion of wot, in the minds of aspiring shamans such as yourself.	[12:09]
mircea_popescu:	the reality of the wot is that it provides the tools to make, perhaps, attacks unfeasibly costly. PERHAPS.	[12:09]
mircea_popescu:	and this "making attacks costly" is exactly mining, any way you turn it.	[12:11]
asciilifeform:	incidentally what the hell is wrong with 'i won't answer message from $newkey unless an $oldkey vouched for him' ?	[12:12]
mircea_popescu:	that the problem recurses to oldkey now.	[12:12]
asciilifeform:	it recurses to meatspace.	[12:12]
mircea_popescu:	ie, "you just want to and someone else gotta do the work now"	[12:12]
asciilifeform:	which does not have such a thing as 0-cost sybilmaking.	[12:12]
mircea_popescu:	"meatspace" is what idiots say.	[12:12]
mircea_popescu:	really, you want your source of power to be chats in coffee shops ?	[12:12]
asciilifeform:	fact is, enemy has not yet devised a means of making faux people at 0cost.	[12:13]
mircea_popescu:	fuck that. i been there, done that, it's enough to run a smallish trown and no more.	[12:13]
asciilifeform:	and mircea_popescu's gurl zoo is made of what.	[12:13]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform yes, but with the go algo it's come pretty damned close.	[12:13]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform it'd surprise you to find that less than half my harem finds itself in my presence at any given time.	[12:13]
mircea_popescu:	new girls can go for years without meeting most of the others forget all.	[12:14]
asciilifeform:	i dun see how the go machine relates.	[12:14]
asciilifeform:	it works on a narrow and well-defined toy problem.	[12:14]
asciilifeform:	there is no risk of a mechanical mircea_popescutron.	[12:14]
mircea_popescu:	prior to the sedol debacle, there was a simple "let's play go" solution to human vs machine	[12:14]
mircea_popescu:	now there isn't really.	[12:14]
* trinque	did wonder about the magic which kept many women in close quarters with each other without killing each other	[12:15]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: now there is a 'complicated' 'let's talk for five minutes'.	[12:15]
asciilifeform:	incidentally, less time than it takes to tell man from muppet by playing go (how many folks even play above 1995 computer level ? does mircea_popescu ? )	[12:16]
mircea_popescu:	the issue of "muppet" is complicated.	[12:16]
mircea_popescu:	and of course, the discussion is carried in terms of go but isn't ABOUT go. it's about "human only tasks"	[12:17]
mircea_popescu:	trinque my shit is uniquely confusing. i call them slaves, because it is the proper term. yet they have more personal freedom and general, intellectual and otherwise independence than any "liberated" hear-her-roar-in-english-only.	[12:19]
* mircea_popescu	isn't in the business of driving people nuts.	[12:20]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: i don't grasp the need for a global 'humanity filter.' working wotronics implies that folks will assortively peer by degree of muppetry, and this imho suffices.	[12:21]
asciilifeform:	let the covertresses live with own kind. and the knuthes - own. etc	[12:21]
mircea_popescu:	anyway, yes asciilifeform has a point in that penis makes for a fine way to make friends. the thing is that as i near 40, i'd dearly love some alternative method. this thing won't last forever.	[12:21]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform there is no "kind" you racist lout you.	[12:22]
asciilifeform:	lel	[12:22]
mircea_popescu:	what kind ? womankind? pshhh	[12:22]
asciilifeform:	womans!111	[12:22]
mircea_popescu:	anyway. the "suffices" thing is all a matter of who's attacking you and why. keeping each other's balances in excel spreadsheets also "Suffices".	[12:22]
mircea_popescu:	but the whole fucking point of technology is to broadly open new cunts.	[12:23]
mircea_popescu:	and to revisit <asciilifeform> fact is, enemy has not yet devised a means of making faux people at 0cost. : please watch the news sometime.	[12:24]
asciilifeform:	these aren't people.	[12:24]
mircea_popescu:	the talking heads are 0cost faux people and most of their subject matter, from hussein bahamas down.	[12:24]
asciilifeform:	and don't fool actual people for so much as 5 seconds.	[12:24]
mircea_popescu:	heh.	[12:24]
mircea_popescu:	do you ever count how much of this "i want this not that therefore the facts are so and so" you do in an average day ?	[12:25]
asciilifeform:	how is this even in principle possible ?	[12:25]
mircea_popescu:	you just did it!	[12:25]
asciilifeform:	the counting, i mean.	[12:25]
mircea_popescu:	"i want my theory to work therefore network anchors aren't people, evidently"	[12:26]
asciilifeform:	'esteemed sir, the defective transistors were packaged separately for your convenience.'	[12:26]
mircea_popescu:	oh. well, the same way everything else is done, you match against the structure and increment a counter.	[12:26]
mircea_popescu:	not so.	[12:26]
mircea_popescu:	the beauty of language is that it allows this sort of analysis.	[12:26]
thestringpuller:	This is how I imagine MP and ALF when talking in channel. Makes work less boring: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/02/Statler_and_Waldorf.jpg	[12:26]
mircea_popescu:	and by language we don't mean dogshit from china/india/the pacific islands and whatnot.	[12:26]
asciilifeform:	thestringpuller: l0l	[12:27]
asciilifeform:	i will observe that, e.g., new york times front page, has 1,001 new faux-people every morning. whereas here we get 0. and so in principle the problem is tractable.	[12:29]
mircea_popescu:	no question, it surely is tractable.	[12:29]
asciilifeform:	and not simply a matter of 'no one tried hard enough to piss in our particular soup'	[12:29]
mircea_popescu:	the discussion errupted when you wanted to take the engine out of the tractor.	[12:29]
asciilifeform:	where's that	[12:30]
mircea_popescu:	http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160906/from:244/to:244#244	[12:30]
asciilifeform:	nothing that happens here is analogous to btc mining.	[12:30]
asciilifeform:	there is no 'stranger can connect and blow difficulty'.	[12:31]
mircea_popescu:	quite identical, yes. except for the superficial parts you hate.	[12:31]
mircea_popescu:	lol! review the history. the bar in 2016 is "make a bot" the bar in 2014 was "get a gpg key".	[12:31]
mircea_popescu:	are you aware the bar for people getting into eulora now, whom you despise for their inferiority, is EXACTLY EQUAL to the bar of this thing right here, years ago ?	[12:31]
mircea_popescu:	and actually ABOVE the bar for its allegible predecessor, bitcoin-otc ?	[12:32]
mircea_popescu:	runaway difficulty baby.	[12:32]
asciilifeform:	lel, and i dun even yet have a bot!11111	[12:32]
mircea_popescu:	right.	[12:32]
trinque:	well, I took CL so you'll have to in ada.	[12:33]
* asciilifeform	pictures assemblage of bots carrying on here, long after we all went down in atomic dirigible crashes	[12:33]
trinque:	lol	[12:33]
mircea_popescu:	oya	[12:33]
mircea_popescu:	the testament of european-ity, as embodied by the greeks and later (1500s!) finally inherited by the italians is simply this :	[12:33]
mircea_popescu:	that women will survive after their man has died.	[12:34]
mircea_popescu:	shall i quote the greek ?	[12:34]
asciilifeform:	the goats, sheep, other critters, also survive, eh ?	[12:34]
mircea_popescu:	generally they get eaten.	[12:35]
mircea_popescu:	war ~= famine.	[12:35]
mircea_popescu:	anyway. let it be noted that gorgo is supposed to marry a GOOD man, not just any man. and the definition of goodness is at the very least shared by leonidas, if not outright sourced from him.	[12:37]
asciilifeform:	there is ~unbroken strand of this, almost through ww2.	[12:39]
Framedragger:	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-06#1535099 << (probably on some superficial level) this reminded me of a film i recently watched at airport: "elena" (2011, zvyagintsev). it's a pretty good film (nothing extraordinary), i think, and i recommend it. i don't have a particular intuition but i suspect that elena's relationship to her husband may pique mircea_popescu's interest, and he'd have words about elena	[13:57]
a111:	Logged on 2016-09-06 16:37 mircea_popescu: anyway. let it be noted that gorgo is supposed to marry a GOOD man, not just any man. and the definition of goodness is at the very least shared by leonidas, if not outright sourced from him.	[13:57]
Framedragger:	(decent cinematography and good acting)	[13:57]
mircea_popescu:	i recently watched fracture, which has all the might of a. hopkins and all around decent acting + good screenplay. except, of course, produced by the same people who keep pushing the same old stakhanovist retardation, as in eg http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160906/from:35/to:35#35	[14:10]
mircea_popescu:	it's a good yarn, especially for the people nostalgic for the soviet 70s.	[14:10]
* asciilifeform	adds to list.	[14:10]
mircea_popescu:	minus the ages, it's almost exact copy.	[14:11]
* Framedragger	to list, too	[14:11]
mircea_popescu:	and it even includes the "strong" female by scriptorial diktat, who otherwise behaves exactly like a little etsy bitch.	[14:11]
asciilifeform:	what's an etsybitch ?	[14:12]
mircea_popescu:	iirc those annoyed me the most back in the 70s.	[14:12]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform you know what the "independent business" ideas of the useless twentysomething middle class chick all revolve around selling handmade junk on social media sites ?	[14:12]
asciilifeform:	these, yes	[14:13]
asciilifeform:	but what in sov planet was analogous to these ?	[14:13]
mircea_popescu:	similar to how all the "online marketeering" derps run businesses consisting of selling "informational products" to themselves ?	[14:13]
mircea_popescu:	the female lead in the respective films.	[14:13]
mircea_popescu:	there is no genuine strong woman in soviet cinematography, except for the occasional bit part playing "nazis".	[14:14]
mircea_popescu:	in no small part because strength was rather nazi to the derps but nevertheless.	[14:14]
asciilifeform:	(in ~unrelated noose, asciilifeform went looking to buy a box of proximity switches, for cnc box. they are sorta like thumb-sized metal detectors with 1 bit of output. and ALL OF the extant offers come with 'this is chinese turd, randomly fails.' and consider, these exist SOLELY to keep large, expensive iron from colliding with itself...)	[14:16]
Framedragger:	...but maybe instead of reliability they offer you push notifications to your Android CNC App (tm), and share buttons to social networks?..	[14:18]
asciilifeform:	^ this isn't wholly accurate. they also exist to give a repeatable zero to the mechanism. (otherwise mechanical switch would suffice.)	[14:18]
asciilifeform:	Framedragger: nah, that's if americans made'em	[14:18]
Framedragger:	heh, yeah. (though, plenty of chinese IoT crap out there, too)	[14:19]
* trinque	imagines the thing runs wince then	[14:19]
asciilifeform:	Framedragger: at one of my recent salt mine gigs, there was an after-hours club thing where folks would bring in and find (trivial) vulns in those.	[14:20]
asciilifeform:	trinque: nah, it's an analogue part.	[14:20]
trinque:	asciilifeform: ftr yesterday my point was not lets rally around llvm you'll notice I've been using nothing but sbcl lately.	[14:20]
asciilifeform:	trinque: neato	[14:21]
Framedragger:	asciilifeform: ahh nice. (and now i recall you mentioning this before - some log memory in mind FINALLY ha)	[14:21]
asciilifeform:	trinque: any interesting finds ?	[14:21]
trinque:	not at the stage of reading enough of the compiler to claim mastery	[14:22]
asciilifeform:	http://www.aliexpress.com/item-img/M18-DC-2-wire-proximity-switch-NPN-NO-metal-sensor-proximity-switch/1561429874.html << earlier subj.	[14:22]
asciilifeform:	trinque: the compiler thing deserves its own thread.	[14:25]
mircea_popescu:	in other random news, avunculate marriage, while commended by teh jews, nevertheless is forbidden by the muslims. most of the world follows the latter rather than the former, except argentina, australia an' russia.	[14:32]
trinque:	heh, not just allowed but commended?	[14:37]
mircea_popescu:	yeah.	[14:37]
mircea_popescu:	many ancient societies had a serious welfare problem which is :	[14:37]
mircea_popescu:	if a) men are the structure and also b) men are not cowardly then necessarily you will end up with desperate female lines.	[14:38]
mircea_popescu:	wut do ?	[14:38]
mircea_popescu:	"marry them."	[14:38]
trinque:	makes sense.	[14:38]
mircea_popescu:	bible is rather explicit on the point that if your brother dies, you're stuck with the widow.	[14:39]
mircea_popescu:	this survives as late and far away as in ww2 anglo fictions, such as seen in cinema. dead guy wants his brother [in arms] to go to his gf and "tell her" things.	[14:40]
mircea_popescu:	it's not specifically said he should tell them with his penis, but anyway.	[14:40]
asciilifeform:	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-06#1535100 <<	[14:41]
a111:	Logged on 2016-09-06 16:39 asciilifeform: there is ~unbroken strand of this, almost through ww2.	[14:41]
shinohai:	!~bible Matt. 22:24	[14:41]
jhvh1:	shinohai: [KJV] Matthew 22:24 :: Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.	[14:41]
asciilifeform:	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-03-12#1431193 << see also.	[14:42]
a111:	Logged on 2016-03-12 13:10 mircea_popescu: this shit's becoming ever more arabic isn't it.	[14:42]
mircea_popescu:	heh.	[14:42]
mircea_popescu:	it's a good heuristic to follow who a man hates, for you're liable to find who he wants to crib without giving credit.	[14:42]
mircea_popescu:	the very same's true of "states", whatever that may mean.	[14:43]
mircea_popescu:	moreover, and more amusingly : notwithstanding pretenses of equality with russia, put forth on the very ridiculous basis of trying to compare bezzle-gdp of say italy with actual gdp of extractive economy the us is altogether not the equal of saudi arabia.	[14:44]
mircea_popescu:	the saudis have an actual culture. all the ustards have is a well lubricated hole.	[14:44]
trinque:	hm, underscores how damaged anglo/western notions of family are.	[14:46]
asciilifeform:	in other noose,	[15:21]
asciilifeform:	$ openssl s_client -showcerts -connect 74.45.228.160:443	[15:21]
asciilifeform:	CONNECTED(00000003)	[15:21]
asciilifeform:	depth=0 C = US, ST = California, L = Sunnyvale, O = Tropos Networks, OU = Manufacturing, CN = Tropos Router, emailAddress = support@tropos.com	[15:21]
asciilifeform:	[snipped crud]	[15:21]
asciilifeform:	^ quite a few of these ^	[15:21]
asciilifeform:	and,	[15:21]
asciilifeform:	$ openssl s_client -showcerts -connect 201.249.207.150:443	[15:21]
asciilifeform:	CONNECTED(00000003)	[15:21]
asciilifeform:	depth=0 name = AR157-Self-Signed-Certificate-210235384810E4001320	[15:22]
asciilifeform:	[snipsnip]	[15:22]
asciilifeform:	^ huawei ar157 ^	[15:22]
asciilifeform:	tropos: 'MetroMesh is a network architecture, based upon the Tropos System Architecture, for building Smart Cities. Smart Cities utilize MetroMesh to build metro-area wireless broadband networks for municipal applications utilizing open-standard radios and IP communications. A common physical infrastructure can be leveraged to support multiple municipal applications including Intelligent Transportation Systems (ITS), Advanced Meteri	[15:23]
asciilifeform:	ng Infrastructure (AMI), video surveillance and public safety access.'	[15:23]
trinque:	http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/23/world/asia/nsa-breached-chinese-servers-seen-as-spy-peril.html?hp&_r=0 << "But the plans went further: to exploit Huawei’s technology so that when the company sold equipment to other countries — including both allies and nations that avoid buying American products — the N.S.A. could roam through their computer and telephone networks to conduct surveillance and, if	[15:24]
trinque:	ordered by the president, offensive cyberoperations."	[15:24]
trinque:	http://seclists.org/fulldisclosure/2016/Sep/3 << in other networking hw manufacturer lulz	[15:29]
trinque:	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-02#1533632 << I stand corrected no fucktardation is too idiotic to have been committed over, and over, and..	[15:31]
a111:	Logged on 2016-09-02 18:21 trinque: asciilifeform: people generate their ssh privkey on the box to which they're connecting?	[15:31]
asciilifeform:	a bunch more have telnet open, and look like this:	[15:34]
asciilifeform:	+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++	[15:34]
asciilifeform:		[15:34]
asciilifeform:	A T E N C A O	[15:34]
asciilifeform:		[15:34]
asciilifeform:	* Permitido o uso somente para pessoas autorizadas *	[15:34]
asciilifeform:		[15:34]
asciilifeform:	A utilizacao indevida ou a operacao que exceda o nivel de autorizacao	[15:35]
asciilifeform:	permitido estara sujeita a monitoramento.	[15:35]
asciilifeform:	+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++	[15:35]
asciilifeform:	(apologies for log clutter, but this is hilarious)	[15:35]
asciilifeform:	they are examples of http://www.audiocodes.com .	[15:35]
asciilifeform:	a voip gateway.	[15:35]
asciilifeform:	e.g., http://ns1.suam.edu.br (why it is on www? who knows.)	[15:36]
shinohai:	^ kek	[15:37]
* Framedragger	's itch to redo http://internetcensus2012.bitbucket.org/ intesifies	[15:37]
Framedragger:	"try root:root / admin:admin"	[15:38]
asciilifeform:	2.116.209.1 is a huawei MA5600T series.	[15:41]
asciilifeform:	(how i know this is left as exercise for the reader.0	[15:41]
asciilifeform:	'SmartAX MA5600T is the global first all-in-one access platform which can provide DSL and optical integrated access. It can provide high density ADSL2+, VDSL2, POTS, ISDN, GPON, Ethernet fiber P2P and Cable access, triple-play service, and TDM/ATM/Ethernet leased line services for business customers. '	[15:41]
asciilifeform:	( http://www1.huawei.com/en/products/fixed-access/fttx/olt/ma5600t/index.htm )	[15:42]
asciilifeform:	elsewhere,	[15:44]
asciilifeform:	we find that 85.14.248.152 leads to http://85.14.248.152:8087/play/files .	[15:45]
asciilifeform:	that's the one with SSH-2.0-OpenSSH_6.0p1 Debian-4+deb7u3 .	[15:45]
asciilifeform:	the 'mikrotik' boxes all look like this one: http://78.188.162.184 .	[15:47]
asciilifeform:	http://187.72.155.221 << typical example of the 'audiocodes' item.	[15:52]
asciilifeform:	http://189.112.138.254 << ditto.	[15:53]
asciilifeform:	$s 189.203.181.7	[15:55]
a111:	1 result for "189.203.181.7", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=189.203.181.7	[15:55]
asciilifeform:	the mexican boxes. also huawei.	[15:55]
BingoBoingo:	$up felipelalli	[15:59]
asciilifeform:	201.101.37.44 appears to be connected to a https://www.insomniasec.com/downloads/advisories/ISVA-110427.1.htm (!)	[15:59]
asciilifeform:	^ 'scada'	[15:59]
asciilifeform:	^ in case anyone wasn't tuned in, these are all animals from the http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/phuctored zoo ^	[16:00]
asciilifeform:	http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/thrfv/?raw=true << current roster.	[16:06]
asciilifeform:	entries with no id string are ones who did not answer.	[16:06]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu et al ^	[16:06]
asciilifeform:	it stands to reason that the entire line of routers of each type listed here is poppable. and, conceivably, all of the products from the vendors mentioned.	[16:07]
asciilifeform:	see also http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-02#1533659 .	[16:07]
a111:	Logged on 2016-09-02 18:41 mircea_popescu: because if we discover that say "thisfunction is used on 64 bits of input of which the first 44 are known" then we run the other 20, add the resulting nextprime etc add those into the 8ball and it's goodnight.	[16:07]
asciilifeform:	74.45.* are tropos.	[16:11]
asciilifeform:	( SSH-2.0-OpenSSH_5.2 )	[16:12]
asciilifeform:	lel, tropos.com redirects to http://new.abb.com/network-management/communication-networks/wireless-networks	[16:13]
asciilifeform:	which has curios such as 'whitepaper: wireless for substation physical security.'	[16:14]
asciilifeform:	https://archive.is/hXAIp << subj.	[16:14]
asciilifeform:	https://archive.is/4Sf1B << fresh snap of subj.	[16:18]
asciilifeform:	'Our offering Oil & Gas Utilities Mining Industrial Control Systems'	[16:19]
asciilifeform:	gotta wonder how this find will be treated by the 'controllers of the vertical and the horizontal'	[16:19]
asciilifeform:	i'ma bet it'll be 'pretend never happened', vs. hannoboeckization.	[16:20]
asciilifeform:	oooh this is riiich,	[16:22]
asciilifeform:	'Around-the-clock monitoring of physical security at transmission and distribution substations can be a key factor in minimizing damage from a wide range of threats that are becoming more commonplace. It is well documented that unauthorized access to utility substations can result in hundreds of thousands of dollars in financial losses as well as cause power outages. Unauthorized access may cause such damage as a result of theft of m	[16:22]
asciilifeform:	aterials or equipment damage to substation equipment and can provide hackers with an opportunity to launch cyber-attacks from within substations. '	[16:22]
asciilifeform:	FROM WITHIN SUBSTATIONS	[16:22]
asciilifeform:	DIDJA KNOW	[16:22]
asciilifeform:	( http://new.abb.com/docs/librariesprovider92/default-document-library/substation-physical-securitya8dc59e6c1f463c09537ff0000433538.pdf )	[16:22]
asciilifeform:	'Gunshot detection, alert and location identification – when a substation is attacked by gunfire it can result in significant damage to equipment and risk the safety of workers on site. A gunshot detection system typically can identify the type of firearm as well as the exact location from which it was fired. If video cameras are configured as part of the gunshot detection system, they may offer a visual image of the individual tha	[16:23]
asciilifeform:	t fired the gun which can accelerate in apprehending and convicting individuals involved in the illicit activity.'	[16:23]
asciilifeform:	how about broken rng detection, imbeciles ?	[16:23]
asciilifeform:	http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/pl5j4/?raw=true << whole thing, largely for mircea_popescu	[16:24]
asciilifeform:	ABB Wireless	[16:24]
asciilifeform:	555 Del Rey Avenue	[16:24]
asciilifeform:	Sunnyvale, CA 94085	[16:24]
asciilifeform:	Phone: +1 408.331.6800	[16:24]
asciilifeform:	who wants to give'em a call??	[16:24]
ben_vulpes:	what, to speak to a secretary	[16:25]
asciilifeform:	if i knew to-what, i'd do it myself.	[16:28]
asciilifeform:	'Memphis, Tennessee is known for rock ‘n roll and slow-cooked barbeque, but those aren’t the only good things coming out of Bluff City. Soon, residents will enjoy the perks of a successful smart grid rollout, too. In an effort to modernize the grid and enhance internal operations and customer service, Memphis Light, Gas and Water is deploying 1 million smart meters within its 784 square mile service area. ABB has been selected to	[16:29]
asciilifeform:	provide wireless network products and services to support advanced metering infrastructure (AMI) communications. This two-way technology is the foundation of the smart grid. ...'	[16:29]
asciilifeform:	( http://troposblog.tropos.com )	[16:29]
asciilifeform:	'Our launch of the TropOS 6420, an outdoor broadband mesh router designed to enhance physical security applications in electric utility T&D substations, was a timely endeavor given recent high-profile vandalism and sabotage events. '	[16:30]
asciilifeform:	'Nothing says happy customer quite like repeat purchases. Recently, ABB Tropos Wireless Communication Systems installed a wireless mesh network at PotashCorp – White Springs’ 100,000-acre phosphate mine in White Springs, FL.'	[16:30]
asciilifeform:	etc.	[16:30]
asciilifeform:	apparently they have a considerable market share in public surveillance cams and the like.	[16:33]
asciilifeform:	'vertical and horizontal' are not controlled with magic, no.	[16:33]
asciilifeform:	they are controlled with 'industry partnerships', like this one.	[16:33]
mircea_popescu:	aaaand in other news, hanbot makes some kickass encilladas.	[16:36]
mircea_popescu:	you'd think she's from like california or something.	[16:36]
asciilifeform:	lel	[16:36]
asciilifeform:	(iirc hanbot actually ~did~ come from california)	[16:36]
mircea_popescu:	yawell!	[16:37]
mircea_popescu:	omg what happened here lol	[16:37]
asciilifeform:	just an ordinary public-rape-with-reciprocating-saw of some 'vertical and horizontal' derps.	[16:39]
mircea_popescu:	http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160906/from:464/to:464#464 << basically, the republic's mesh already exists, it's called "smart cities" and is used to run the surveillance and etc of the lizard empire.	[16:58]
asciilifeform:	this was known previously.	[16:59]
asciilifeform:	what was not (publicly) known is that they had own version of soviet toy crypto 'gost'.	[16:59]
mircea_popescu:	aha	[17:01]
mircea_popescu:	somebody should wipe some harddrives / deface some corporate sites so there's something here to qntra	[17:01]
mircea_popescu:	as it is, meh.	[17:02]
mircea_popescu:	(feel free to drop a pgpgram when done, of course, i "won't be able to prove it's mine" etc.)	[17:02]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: these aren't 'corporate sites'	[17:04]
asciilifeform:	these are transformer farms, water pumps, security cams, etc.	[17:04]
mircea_popescu:	eh, i'm sure there's something somewhere.	[17:04]
asciilifeform:	'something, somewhere' yes.	[17:05]
asciilifeform:	but i was speaking specifically re tropos.	[17:05]
asciilifeform:	these are 'heavy industry' items, a la the siemens product starring in stuxnet.	[17:05]
mircea_popescu:	but can they accelerate in apprehending!	[17:07]
mircea_popescu:	http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160906/from:536/to:536#536 << eh fuck 'em, let them read the log like everyone else.	[17:07]
asciilifeform:	btw, the 5 tropos boxen poppes so far appear to all be in athens, ohio.	[17:08]
asciilifeform:	fwiw.	[17:08]
asciilifeform:	*popped	[17:08]
mircea_popescu:	maybe that's where the cosmic rays are.	[17:08]
asciilifeform:	prolly where the most tropos per /16 block on planet3...	[17:09]
asciilifeform:	(their test plant ?)	[17:09]
asciilifeform:	'birthday' effect, recall.	[17:10]
mircea_popescu:	aha.	[17:10]
asciilifeform:	tropos is part of the 'vertical and horizontal' thing, in the sense where it is one of two dozen or so 'partners' for making sure that usg knows daily output, in millilitres, of oil well in venezuela, or that if texas breaks away from the ussa, it will not have working sewage pumps, etc.	[17:16]
mircea_popescu:	in other lulz : when nixon and rockefeller were negotiating the treaty of fifth avenue, nixon's / gop's "platform committee" was in a hotel in chicago. they were on the phone for four hours but midway, as midnight came by, THE HOTEL OPERATOR PULLED THE PLUG AND WENT HOME.	[17:16]
asciilifeform:	it is not part of the 'monkey' net that includes 'corporate sites' etc.	[17:16]
mircea_popescu:	the guy was not shot. this is supposedly a country.	[17:16]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform these two items are not distinct.	[17:17]
mircea_popescu:	also in the news, cancer has no organs.	[17:17]
asciilifeform:	in that sense, not, aha.	[17:17]
mircea_popescu:	(in case anyone is curious where this nonsense starts, see eg point 2 of the "basic, specific positions" : "2. The vital need of our foreign policy is new political creativityleading and inspiring the formation, in all great regions of the free world, of confederations, large enough and strong enough to meet modern problems and challenges. We should promptly lead toward the formation of such confederations in the North Atl	[17:19]
mircea_popescu:	antic community and in the Western Hemisphere."	[17:19]
asciilifeform:	'There must be no price ceiling on America's security.'	[17:26]
asciilifeform:	many lulz.	[17:26]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: https://ics-cert.us-cert.gov/advisories/ICSA-12-297-01 << ahahahahahahahaha	[17:41]
asciilifeform:	'This advisory provides mitigation details for a vulnerability that impacts Tropos Wireless Mesh Routers. An independent research group composed of Nadia Heninger (University of California at San Diego), Zakir Durumeric (University of Michigan), Eric Wustrow (University of Michigan), and J. Alex Halderman (University of Michigan) identified an insufficient entropy vulnerabilitya in SSH key generation in Tropos Networks’s wireless n	[17:42]
asciilifeform:	etwork router product line. By impersonating the device, an attacker can obtain the credentials of administrative users and perform a Man-in-the-Middle (MitM) attack. Tropos has validated the vulnerability and produced an embedded operating software update that mitigates the reported vulnerability. According to Tropos, products are deployed across several sectors including the transportation, energy, water, emergency services, and cr	[17:42]
asciilifeform:	itical manufacturing concentrated in the United States. This vulnerability can be exploited remotely.'	[17:42]
asciilifeform:	aka CVE-2012-4898 .	[17:43]
asciilifeform:	old noose >	[17:43]
asciilifeform:	?	[17:43]
asciilifeform:	i'd like to see the stuxnet-style non-fixing fix they pushed out.	[17:46]
asciilifeform:	anybody got a tropos whatever ?	[17:47]
asciilifeform:	incidentally the cited piece, 'minding your p's and q's', henninger et al ( https://factorable.net/weakkeys12.conference.pdf ) makes 0 mention of tropos.	[17:49]
asciilifeform:	so must've been 'seekrit evidence' or wat.	[17:49]
asciilifeform:	http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/wdrgs/?raw=true << mircea_popescuization of above.	[17:52]
mircea_popescu:	sooo... it was fixed ?	[17:56]
asciilifeform:	'fixed'	[17:56]
mircea_popescu:	such a charade by now.	[17:56]
mircea_popescu:	oh "anyone can detect 0cost people". really ? who detected nadia chick doesn't actually exist irl ?	[17:57]
asciilifeform:	any reason to suppose the chick doesn't exist ?	[17:57]
mircea_popescu:	any reason TO SUPPOSE SHE DOES ?	[17:58]
asciilifeform:	https://www.cis.upenn.edu/~nadiah << hey phf, consider dropping by there and see..?	[17:58]
mircea_popescu:	"oh coincidentally, this name that keeps being dredged up by usg assets as supposed primary source which never EVER checks out"	[17:58]
mircea_popescu:	such existence.	[17:58]
asciilifeform:	eh, i met a buncha these poor sods in the flesh	[17:58]
asciilifeform:	boneh, for instance.	[17:58]
mircea_popescu:	this is what, the... 5th ? case where "she reported" things she never reported ?	[17:59]
asciilifeform:	(or, alternatively, whoever plays their role!11111)	[17:59]
asciilifeform:	anybody got a printed, cdrom, or otherwise offline archive of 'CVE' they're willing to swear by ..?	[18:04]
asciilifeform:	this is an open call, for l0gz readers.	[18:05]
asciilifeform:	mats? boolcrap ?	[18:05]
asciilifeform:	i will add that i have not succeeded in turning up any public record of what the vuln actually ~was~	[18:06]
asciilifeform:	beyond the statement given by usg.	[18:06]
asciilifeform:	which was the 1 paragraph appearing earlier.	[18:06]
* asciilifeform	is lelling over getting usg 'red team 3111111113333337 s333k00000r1t1 job!1111' spam in mailboxes that have been idle for eons	[18:11]
Framedragger:	on the basis of http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-05#1534300 , could someone from l1 please rate scriba? it should then self-voice with deedbot if it detects no voice	[18:24]
a111:	Logged on 2016-09-05 14:52 deedbot: Framedragger rated scriba 3 << An instance of a bot I wrote and manage. I trust it with log history, but if it becomes sentient and starts asking for money, do beware.	[18:24]
Framedragger:	mircea_popescu et al ^	[18:25]
trinque:	!!rate scriba 1 Framedraggerbot	[18:25]
deedbot:	Get your OTP: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/r/6riwl/?raw=true	[18:25]
trinque:	!!v 9BB4FF83E23F40AC43098DAF7360600C8099645A25F7CA13771988D9FCA12A56	[18:26]
deedbot:	trinque rated scriba 1 << Framedraggerbot	[18:26]
Framedragger:	much thanks trinque	[18:26]
trinque:	cheers	[18:26]
Framedragger:	multiple lines - will output up to 5 because spamming is bad: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160830/from:629/to:650#629 asdfasdfasdf	[18:26]
Framedragger:	good start, good start.	[18:27]
Framedragger:	multiple lines - will output up to 5 because spamming is bad: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160830/from:629/to:650#629 asdfasdfasdf	[18:28]
scriba:	Logged on 2016-08-30: [1/5] [23:40:33] <Framedragger> echo 'Вопрос' \| iconv -t cp1251 \| iconv -f koi8-r	[18:28]
scriba:	[2/5] [23:40:41] <Framedragger> "koi8-r" ?	[18:28]
scriba:	[3/5] [23:41:07] <Framedragger> aha, "issue", encoded in some grotesque way	[18:28]
scriba:	[4/5] [23:41:26] <mircea_popescu> yeah	[18:28]
scriba:	[5/5] [23:42:13] <Framedragger> КПРФ -> йопт HAHAHA	[18:28]
Framedragger:	process managed by upstart, will restart if needed etc. let's see if it pisses people off :p	[18:29]
Framedragger:	http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/2018/01/01/#1	[18:29]
trinque:	the numbering at the front is probably unnecessary.	[18:29]
trinque:	but otherwise very nice	[18:30]
Framedragger:	it won't do the numbering if it's just a single line, like http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160906/from:1/to:1#1	[18:30]
scriba:	Logged on 2016-09-06: [00:00:01] <asciilifeform> again who the fuck needs a rustbucket that costs a dollar per metre to move??!	[18:30]
Framedragger:	but maybe you're right	[18:30]
* trinque	can count to five :D	[18:31]
Framedragger:	hmm.. yeah :D	[18:31]
Framedragger:	right, off to watch film, will monitor things.	[18:31]
asciilifeform:	very nifty	[18:58]
mircea_popescu:	$rate scriba 1 Framedragger 's bot	[19:00]
mircea_popescu:	!!rate scriba 1 Framedragger 's bot	[19:00]
deedbot:	Get your OTP: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/r/qd3e5/?raw=true	[19:00]
mircea_popescu:	!!v 724D09772202F2F5E15334DB6031186C230D767D5272FEB4EFFFCBFC6F55D4CD	[19:01]
deedbot:	mircea_popescu rated scriba 1 << Framedragger 's bot	[19:01]
mircea_popescu:	win.	[19:02]
mircea_popescu:	http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/2016/01/01/#1	[19:02]
mircea_popescu:	http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160906/from:474/to:474#474	[19:03]
scriba:	Logged on 2016-09-06: [19:34:58] <asciilifeform> A T E N C A O	[19:03]
mircea_popescu:	i suspect this might become a meme.	[19:03]
asciilifeform:	lel	[19:12]
mod6:	so yesterdays discussion got me thinking about a lisp machine (lisp-cpu) with verilog on a fpga	[19:21]
mod6:	there are some projects out there seems like, in this vein.	[19:22]
mod6:	alf, you ever attempt anything like this?	[19:22]
mod6:	or is that what you were kinda talking about here, but ran ut of time: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-22#1455140	[19:23]
a111:	Logged on 2016-04-22 01:47 asciilifeform: i actually spent the first ~6 mo. after i bought the lisp machine, trying to rig up, with fpga, a mechanism to read the fucking disk	[19:23]
trinque:	^ was an endeavor to bolt modern disk to the thing iirc	[19:24]
mod6:	yeah, im not super clear on the whole thing.	[19:25]
mod6:	so forget that maybe.. just wondering if anyone has tried this before?	[19:25]
mircea_popescu:	if someone made a fpga-based clone of the symbolics machine that'd prolly get a bunch of people to wet their pants.	[19:26]
asciilifeform:	mod6: i have entire www dedicated to it.	[19:27]
asciilifeform:	all forms of it.	[19:27]
asciilifeform:	and we had at least half a dozen threads, e.g.,	[19:27]
asciilifeform:	$s sdram	[19:27]
a111:	26 results for "sdram", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=sdram	[19:27]
asciilifeform:	$s xilinx	[19:27]
a111:	96 results for "xilinx", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=xilinx	[19:27]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform it doesn't HAVE to use sdram though does it.	[19:27]
trinque:	all roads lead to make 50 billion dollars, then cry as alf says it's not enough	[19:27]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: it can use sram. which is what i've been playing with for past year or so.	[19:28]
mod6:	yeah, alright, i'll take a look.	[19:28]
mod6:	thanks alf	[19:28]
asciilifeform:	but go and convince anyone to use a box with 2MB.	[19:28]
mircea_popescu:	depends what for.	[19:28]
asciilifeform:	(sram costs like plutonium.)	[19:28]
mircea_popescu:	huh ?	[19:28]
asciilifeform:	and the real boojum is that it isn't even AVAILABLE in more than 8 or so MB per die.	[19:29]
asciilifeform:	for any price afaik.	[19:29]
mircea_popescu:	you can have 4mb for ~5 bux iirc	[19:29]
trinque:	asciilifeform: looks like you've been doing marketing for a non-existent networking gear company all day	[19:29]
trinque:	great marketing	[19:29]
mircea_popescu:	lol	[19:29]
mircea_popescu:	Alliance Memory AS6C8008-55ZIN SRAM Memory, 8Mbit, 2.7 → 5.5 V, 55ns 44-Pin TSOP << available from ~$5 for orders over 2k.	[19:30]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: 8Mbit == 1MB.	[19:30]
mircea_popescu:	so you know, for five grand you got a gb.	[19:30]
asciilifeform:	and i actually have a board with that part on.	[19:31]
asciilifeform:	but understand, speed of light is finite	[19:31]
asciilifeform:	and signal here does not travel in vacuum, either.	[19:31]
trinque:	there's really no arguing for going up the stairs is there	[19:31]
mircea_popescu:	sure. but the idea here is to build an upgraded symbolics machine not to build a competitor for current intel offerings.	[19:31]
trinque:	vs up the wall	[19:31]
asciilifeform:	the five grand does not buy 'same as your pc', it buys something quite rather more like what is in my bolix 3620.	[19:31]
mircea_popescu:	dude. no fucking body wants "same as your pc".	[19:32]
mircea_popescu:	i already got my pc.	[19:32]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu is willing to live with 500nsec seeks ?	[19:32]
asciilifeform:	https://archive.is/sI1dK << subj.	[19:32]
mircea_popescu:	depends what it's doing!	[19:32]
mircea_popescu:	http://66.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lofmkgdT9Z1qkmr3do1_500.gif << example of 500msec seeks.	[19:33]
asciilifeform:	lel	[19:33]
asciilifeform:	sdram was not, unfortunately, the only device in the shitlist either.	[19:33]
mircea_popescu:	yes ? nature lives with half second seeks for some data transfer applications.	[19:33]
asciilifeform:	i was able to make 10baseT ethernet meet timing spec without using xilinxisms	[19:33]
asciilifeform:	but not 100.	[19:33]
asciilifeform:	ditto pata, but not sata.	[19:34]
asciilifeform:	usb1 but not usb2/3.	[19:34]
mircea_popescu:	i dunno who authorized this approach of "try to symbolics-clone ibm at" but it wasn't me.	[19:34]
asciilifeform:	well do you want a box with no i/o at all, or wat.	[19:34]
mircea_popescu:	!~search splitting	[19:34]
jhvh1:	mircea_popescu: There were no matching configuration variables.	[19:34]
asciilifeform:	'lisp doesn't need i/o' -- asciilifeform's brother	[19:35]
trinque:	none of that is "no"	[19:35]
mircea_popescu:	there is a clear market in high assurance hardware to do things such as signing, encrypting and bitcoin payments where time is not a concern.	[19:35]
asciilifeform:	trinque: it does add up to '0 chance of running bitcoin' tho.	[19:36]
mircea_popescu:	not so.	[19:36]
asciilifeform:	it has hard time spec.	[19:36]
mircea_popescu:	life lesson here for you alf : you start, anything, by doing what it does well. NOT by trying and failing to do what other things do well.	[19:36]
mircea_popescu:	nevermind the $random-arbitrary-application.	[19:36]
mircea_popescu:	i dunno why the fuck this error is so common, but it dominates anglosphere. "white knight" = dude who is trying not to be a good dude, but to be the best chick he could possibly be.	[19:37]
mircea_popescu:	why the fuck ? no chick wants a gf esp not a shitty emulation in male hardware.	[19:37]
mircea_popescu:	and yet...	[19:37]
deedbot:	http://www.contravex.com/2016/09/06/the-revolutions-just-keep-revolving-dont-they/ << » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski - The revolutions just keep revolving don’t they.	[19:38]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: i must point out that there is NO application where 'time does not matter'. for instance,	[19:38]
mircea_popescu:	yes, there is. i just gave you a few.	[19:39]
asciilifeform:	i have not succeeded in coming up with a 6502 rsatron that manages to generate a key before the battery (of any reasonable size) and the owner's patience give way.	[19:39]
mircea_popescu:	i literally do not care if preparing the signed copies of warrants for s.mg takes a minute or a month.	[19:39]
asciilifeform:	because the thing didn't have a multiplier.	[19:39]
mircea_popescu:	if i know they take a month i just start a month early.	[19:39]
asciilifeform:	you'd like the thing to be the size of a breadbox ?	[19:39]
mircea_popescu:	we're not discussing 6052 here. stop moving things around.	[19:40]
asciilifeform:	it was example.	[19:40]
mircea_popescu:	it was either horrible example made by dysfunctional brain or else deliberate attemt to spoke conversation wheel.	[19:40]
mircea_popescu:	we're discussing here, modern clone of symbolics machine, or a similar item.	[19:40]
asciilifeform:	example of an actual dead end that i had to explore the hard way.	[19:40]
mircea_popescu:	yes, but a z80 clone chip is no sort of fpga forcrying out loud.	[19:41]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: it would be a terrible application for it, for 'high assurance' you want the MINIMUM TRANSISTOR COUNT	[19:41]
asciilifeform:	this is hard concept ?	[19:41]
mircea_popescu:	i gotta prototype sometime.	[19:41]
asciilifeform:	prototype - yes.	[19:41]
mircea_popescu:	well wtf are we discussing.	[19:41]
asciilifeform:	the field?	[19:41]
mircea_popescu:	so - yes, there'd be applications where time isn't the criterion.	[19:41]
asciilifeform:	they are solely of 'harem' (vs 'forum') type.	[19:42]
* asciilifeform	brb, meat	[19:42]
mircea_popescu:	as in examples given ?	[19:43]
mircea_popescu:	i dunno.	[19:43]
BingoBoingo:	!~bcstats	[20:01]
jhvh1:	BingoBoingo: Current Blocks: 428610 \| Current Difficulty: 2.2075590833037228E11 \| Next Difficulty At Block: 429407 \| Next Difficulty In: 797 blocks \| Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 17 hours, 36 minutes, and 41 seconds \| Next Difficulty Estimate: None \| Estimated Percent Change: None	[20:01]
shinohai:	!~ticker --market all	[20:01]
jhvh1:	shinohai: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 608.93, vol: 4038.84594708 \| BTC-E BTCUSD last: 608.253, vol: 4853.26157 \| Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 615.2, vol: 3078.1683089 \| BTCChina BTCUSD last: 612.746414, vol: 146496.84330000 \| Kraken BTCUSD last: 613.318, vol: 486.39297549 \| Volume-weighted last average: 612.561510532	[20:01]
shinohai:	Notice jhvh1 doesn't require a "more"	[20:02]
BingoBoingo:	nice	[20:02]
BingoBoingo:	!~ty	[20:02]
jhvh1:	You are very welcome Daddy	[20:02]
mircea_popescu:	you know this "you are very welcome daddy" think keeps reminding me of this ... i don't recall, maybe a succession of sms captions ? where a clearly competent streetwalker (of the sort that lives on street most days, checks into motel now and again) was assuring some random dude that she doesn't mind his friend beating her up.	[20:06]
trinque:	shinohai: nice!	[20:06]
mircea_popescu:	ex post facto.	[20:06]
shinohai:	trinque: thx I just always found it annoying griible required a more when it all fits in 2 lines fine.	[20:07]
trinque:	shinohai: yes but otherwise it wouldn't have had room for the more	[20:10]
mircea_popescu:	lol	[20:10]
Framedragger:	[restarting]	[20:11]
BingoBoingo:	mircea_popescu: Well even with bots the patriarchy must be established	[20:12]
mircea_popescu:	do you recall this thing ?	[20:18]
BingoBoingo:	I am trying too	[20:18]
BingoBoingo:	brb sobriety time!	[20:19]
mircea_popescu:	lol	[20:19]
* shinohai	considers adding the Big Book to the scriptorium for BingoBoingo	[20:20]
BingoBoingo:	You don't need to add the whole thing. Just the steps and the traditions.	[20:21]
mircea_popescu:	just in case anyone's weird tank was running low, http://diaryofahollywoodstreetking.com/claudia-jordan-admits-to-abortion/	[20:31]
asciilifeform:	Framedragger: bot dead ?	[20:34]
asciilifeform:	or hm, nm.	[20:34]
shinohai:	!~step1	[20:35]
jhvh1:	1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.	[20:35]
shinohai:	bwahahahha	[20:35]
asciilifeform:	l0l!	[20:35]
asciilifeform:	https://archive.is/jsoCp << in other lulz	[20:38]
asciilifeform:	'The Data Protection Commissioner is convinced, her supervision authority also extends „to SUSLAG and its staff members“. Therefore, she wanted to inspect this core area of BND-NSA collaboration. But the BND also blocked these attempts. The Commissioner and her staff are not allowed to enter the building and not even allowed to know how many people work there...'	[20:40]
asciilifeform:	'While the Data Protection Commissioner was examining the BND in Bad Aibling, the secret service ramped up its equipment for 300 million Euros. And while the Commissioner waited for an answer to her report from the Chancellery, the government drafted a reform bill for the BND that not only legalizes the organization’s actions, but even increases its powers. This legislative package is scheduled to be adopted this year and will pres	[20:40]
asciilifeform:	umably come into effect at the beginning of next year.'	[20:40]
mircea_popescu:	heh	[20:43]
asciilifeform:	http://btcbase.org/log/2014-08-16#798881 << see also.	[20:44]
a111:	Logged on 2014-08-16 21:39 asciilifeform: 'mr carter, you aren't cleared for this, and if you ask again there will be problems.'	[20:44]
mircea_popescu:	a government can never be solvent a government can never operate legally.	[20:44]
asciilifeform:	noshit.jpg	[20:52]
* asciilifeform	rereading vintage golden lulzies, http://trilema.com/2014/a-complete-theory-of-economics/#comment-107389	[20:54]
asciilifeform:	'These aren't people assembled for an actual reason, as a result of merits. These are people whose merits are supposed to be predicated on the mere fact of having been assembled. Not quite the same thing.'	[20:54]
asciilifeform:	from somewhere therein, moar gold,	[21:03]
asciilifeform:	' Anyone who doesn’t know what he knows or who doesn’t behave/speak in the conventional way these developers speak is merely a troll, not worthy to partake in a discussion among the priests. And in his view Henson is simply too big to fail, too big to be held accountable for his actions, in this or any case, because he is part of the crypto establishment. We see these same patterns in politics and banking for example – it’s e	[21:04]
asciilifeform:	litism, simply put. The 1%. ... It’s much like politics – one wants to throw out the lot of them and start from scratch with real people. I know for a fact I don’t want either of these people working on security-related code in MY OS. Get lost, permanently!'	[21:04]
asciilifeform:	( https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2014/04/08/julian-assange-debian-is-owned-by-the-nsa )	[21:04]
* asciilifeform	somehow missed.	[21:04]
asciilifeform:	same fella still shouts into the wilderness, e.g., https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2015/06/13/openwashing-and-other-deceptions-in-linux/ ,	[21:05]
asciilifeform:	'Remember Heartbleed? Don’t let that example escape your attention. OpenSSL is open, yet it is so large and poorly designed that it’s a dark mystery. Heartbleed was easily shown to be a deliberate hack, and was even deliberately coded to hide itself from tools that would otherwise have shown the leak. And it was sitting there in ‘open’ sight. Instead of using small, well-reviewed crypto libraries, corporate Linux developers c	[21:05]
asciilifeform:	hoose to use corporate-maintained tools like OpenSSL, which are deeply compromised. Do you think the people responsible for HeartBleed were held accountable, and fundamental changes were made? Guess again. It’s simply ignored by most of Linux. (You’ll notice real UNIXes like OpenBSD did not ignore it and have begun serious changes. Yet even there, it took such a serious, obvious exploit for them to see the engineering problem.)'	[21:05]
asciilifeform:	'Really, I think it’s too late for mainstream “Linux”. It’s gone. It’s done. Geeks of the world were easily fooled by a shiny new toy and a corporate propaganda campaign to match, without considering the engineering implications. You can still use a real (systemd-free) version of Linux, or move toward the BSDs, but if you stay with the easy-to-use, polished distros, you’re no longer really using Linux. You’re just fooli	[21:06]
asciilifeform:	ng yourself, and they’re fooling you. Nor will systemd be the end of it – it’s just the beginning, the setup for future changes.'	[21:06]
asciilifeform:	later tell mircea_popescu http://wiki.tulpa.info/Official/FAQ << a (supposed) reader mailed this in. parody? or...	[21:28]
asciilifeform:	$up alice_	[21:35]
asciilifeform:	!!up alice_	[21:35]
deedbot:	alice_ voiced for 30 minutes.	[21:35]
asciilifeform:	there you are.	[21:35]
asciilifeform:	... hello ?	[21:36]
alice_:	hi! today i'm reading {The Timeless Way of Building}. i'm curious if you've read anything by Christopher Alexander	[21:37]
asciilifeform:	can't say that i have.	[21:38]
asciilifeform:	maybe danielpbarron ?	[21:38]
alice_:	mm. it's a mix of theoretical and applied architecture. generalizes nicely to all of design.	[21:39]
asciilifeform:	'Christopher Alexander is Emeritus Professor of Architecture at the University of California, Berkeley, best known for his seminal works on architecture including A Pattern Language, Notes on the Synthesis of Form, and The Nature of Order, Volumes I-IV. He is the father of the Pattern Language movement in computer science, and A Pattern Language was perhaps the first complete book ever written in hypertext fashion.'	[21:39]
alice_:	that's the one	[21:39]
asciilifeform:	i see 'design patterns' as language bug.	[21:40]
asciilifeform:	http://www.loper-os.org/?p=401 << as described here.	[21:40]
* shinohai	wonders if this is the alice_ he is always reading about in gpg manuals.	[21:41]
alice_:	if i had a dollar every time somebody made that joke	[21:42]
asciilifeform:	http://library.uniteddiversity.coop/Ecological_Building/A_Pattern_Language.pdf << 1333337 w4r3z. but my impression is - claptrap.	[21:43]
shinohai:	Glad I could do my part to make it economically viable for you.	[21:44]
asciilifeform:	i'ma read the thing anyway, because i am an 'entomologist'.	[21:44]
asciilifeform:	but cannot make guarantee of result.	[21:45]
alice_:	i read http://www.loper-os.org/?p=401. it doesn't mention design patterns. i'm p sure i can guess correctly the bad thing it's complaining about, but i didn't get a model for how design patterns are a language bug	[21:46]
asciilifeform:	http://www.rainmagazine.com/archive/2014/gatemaker << reads like ted nelson.	[21:47]
asciilifeform:	which is not a bad thing.	[21:47]
asciilifeform:	alice_: if i see a pattern, i write a macro and it vanishes.	[21:47]
asciilifeform:	which is why we have macro.	[21:47]
alice_:	{A Pattern Language} is a book about the specific pattern language he built for architecture http://library.uniteddiversity.coop/Ecological_Building/The_Timeless_Way_of_Building_Complete.pdf is the theory book	[21:47]
alice_:	right, macro is an excellent way to use patterns in code (and is itself a pattern)	[21:48]
asciilifeform:	macro ~removes~ pattern. as in increasing the entropy (per, say, kolmogorov, or even chaitin's criterion) of the program.	[21:49]
asciilifeform:	quite like what, elsewhere, a well-written compressor does.	[21:50]
alice_:	list[:-1] vs (drop-last list)	[21:50]
asciilifeform:	!!up boolcrap	[21:51]
deedbot:	boolcrap voiced for 30 minutes.	[21:51]
boolcrap:	yo	[21:51]
boolcrap:	stan you got cycles?	[21:51]
asciilifeform:	hola señor boolcrap	[21:51]
asciilifeform:	eh?	[21:51]
boolcrap:	sieg heil stan joseph joseph goebbels	[21:52]
boolcrap:	sorry forgot his spelling	[21:52]
boolcrap:	had to google, then pasted pad.	[21:52]
asciilifeform:	Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein boolcrap .	[21:52]
boolcrap:	^bad	[21:52]
boolcrap:	lol	[21:52]
asciilifeform:	alice_: ick nonhomoiconic syntax.	[21:52]
boolcrap:	you getting alot of work done alf?	[21:53]
asciilifeform:	megatonnes.	[21:53]
boolcrap:	nice	[21:53]
asciilifeform:	and you ?	[21:53]
boolcrap:	i finally got official access to the place i am a contractor for	[21:53]
alice_:	afaict christopher alexander is using "pattern" to mean a basic component of language, not the thing which macros remove	[21:53]
boolcrap:	but I have learned from you well so	[21:53]
boolcrap:	i set the bar very low for myself	[21:54]
boolcrap:	im going to stan the crap out of these guys in your honor!	[21:54]
asciilifeform:	lel boolcrap , what have you even been doing all of this time.	[21:54]
boolcrap:	they have me doing odd jobs, doing prep work for a RE course they teaching at UM	[21:54]
boolcrap:	also ive been working not-bare-iron1.0	[21:55]
alice_:	i feel ick about nonhomoiconic and never-infix	[21:55]
asciilifeform:	what's so great about infix.	[21:55]
asciilifeform:	i could live the rest of my life without infix, quite happily.	[21:56]
alice_:	seems to be a lot more natural language for a lot of humans for a lot of things	[21:56]
alice_:	maybe not you :) but me.	[21:56]
alice_:	invertible compilers solve that problem tho pretty nicely	[21:56]
* asciilifeform	brb, meat	[21:57]
asciilifeform:	!!up alice_	[21:57]
deedbot:	alice_ voiced for 30 minutes.	[21:57]
asciilifeform:	!!up boolcrap	[21:57]
deedbot:	boolcrap voiced for 30 minutes.	[21:57]
asciilifeform:	entertain one another, dear guests.	[21:57]
asciilifeform:	i'ma meat for a spell.	[21:57]
alice_:	i haven't figured out how to scale them up to something as syntax-complicated as javascript but i've found 80/20s pretty useful for practical infixy needs	[21:58]
alice_:	transpilers	[21:58]
alice_:	i seriously tried lisp, i spent hundreds of hours coding in a variety of lisps, including clojure (ugh) and arc (lovely but it was for a production web server and it was completely unsuited to the purpose)	[21:59]
alice_:	i don't think as easy without shit like x/2 and list[:-1]	[22:00]
alice_:	dsls i'm proud of	[22:11]
alice_:	┌───────────── [ ──────────────┐ ┌───────────── ⇧[ ─────────────┐	[22:11]
alice_:	│ _ ¹ ² ³ ⁴ ⁵ ⁶ ⁷ ⁸ ⁹ ⁰ ⁻ ⁼ _ │ │ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ⁽ ⁾ _ ⁺ _ │	[22:11]
alice_:	│ _ X ʷ ᵉ ʳ ᵗ ʸ ᵘ ⁱ ᵒ ᵖ _ _ _ │ │ _ X ᵂ ᴱ ᴿ ᵀ X ᵁ ᴵ ᴼ ᴾ _ _ _ │	[22:11]
alice_:	│ _ ᵃ ˢ ᵈ ᶠ ᵍ ʰ ʲ ᵏ ˡ _ _ _ │ │ _ ᴬ ᴮ ᴰ X ᴳ ᴴ ᴶ ᴷ ᴸ _ _ _ │	[22:11]
alice_:	│ _ ᶻ ˣ ᶜ ᵛ ᵇ ⁿ ᵐ _ _ _ _ │ │ _ X X X ⱽ X ᴺ ᴹ _ _ _ _ │	[22:11]
alice_:	└──────────────────────────────┘ └──────────────────────────────┘	[22:11]
alice_:	a homoiconic format for binding keyboard keys	[22:12]
alice_:	sort of, i think i misuse homoiconic	[22:12]
trinque:	uh	[22:13]
trinque:	what do you think it means?	[22:13]
alice_:	the program structure is similar to its syntax. in this case, the code for shift is ⇧ and can be typed by ⏻⇧	[22:16]
alice_:	& the syntax is similar to a literal keyboard when possible	[22:16]
alice_:	that's {power key}⇧ if you haven't installed any exotic fonts. it's macbook-specific.	[22:17]
trinque:	mkay	[22:17]
trinque:	so, what brought you here?	[22:17]
alice_:	asciilifeform seems potentially entertaining	[22:18]
alice_:	/interesting	[22:18]
trinque:	can't argue with that.	[22:20]
mircea_popescu:	what the fuck is this then	[22:20]
boolcrap:	he is actually the most interesting man alive	[22:20]
trinque:	mircea_popescu: somebody got out her crayons	[22:21]
boolcrap:	at our old job we hired him just so he would come out to lunch with us	[22:21]
mircea_popescu:	is this gabriel laddel v2.0 or ?	[22:21]
trinque:	alice_: are you homeless by chance?	[22:23]
alice_:	no, why	[22:23]
mircea_popescu:	just a stray thought.	[22:24]
alice_:	what	[22:24]
alice_:	you give cute insults tho	[22:27]
alice_:	i am entertained :)	[22:27]
mircea_popescu:	http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160907/from:50/to:50#50 << this much is certainly true	[22:27]
scriba:	Logged on 2016-09-07: [01:06:18] <asciilifeform> 'Really, I think it’s too late for mainstream “Linux”. It’s gone. It’s done. Geeks of the world were easily fooled by a shiny new toy and a corporate propaganda campaign to match, without considering the engineering implications. You can still use a real (systemd-free) version of Linux, or move toward the BSDs, but if you stay with the	[22:27]
scriba:	easy-to-use, polished distros, you’re no longer really using Linux. You’re just fooli	[22:27]
mircea_popescu:	!!up alice_	[22:28]
deedbot:	alice_ voiced for 30 minutes.	[22:28]
mircea_popescu:	http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160907/from:102/to:102#102 << guy does what usians are known for, take random item from the scenery, write his name on it, strut around proudly.	[22:30]
scriba:	Logged on 2016-09-07: [01:53:54] <alice_> afaict christopher alexander is using "pattern" to mean a basic component of language, not the thing which macros remove	[22:30]
alice_:	so	[22:32]
mircea_popescu:	http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160907/from:111/to:111#111 << it's funny that THIS antipattern you recognize. yes, it's the macula of intellectual degeneracy and not coincidentally rapspeech is fulla infixen.	[22:33]
scriba:	Logged on 2016-09-07: [01:56:09] <asciilifeform> i could live the rest of my life without infix, quite happily.	[22:33]
alice_:	why are you so angry?	[22:35]
mircea_popescu:	i'm merely strict.	[22:35]
alice_:	mm, not my fetish. as long as you get off on it :)	[22:36]
mircea_popescu:	who are you again ?	[22:36]
alice_:	clarify	[22:37]
alice_:	what do you mean, who am i?	[22:40]
mircea_popescu:	that, literally. who are you.	[22:40]
alice_:	i'm alice. i haven't interacted with this channel before. but i don't imagine that's the answer you're hoping for	[22:41]
* mircea_popescu	is vaguely unsurprised that rando who spends his time vaguely considering "invertible compilers" for, obviously, javascript, has yet to actually produce a definition for itself.	[22:42]
alice_:	her	[22:42]
alice_:	i take it back, your insults are annoying	[22:42]
mircea_popescu:	what do you think an insult is ?	[22:44]
alice_:	your mom	[22:45]
mircea_popescu:	mmkay.	[22:45]
ben_vulpes:	in other news, the much-maligned littoral combat ships can't keep water out of their engine lube systems and so the surface force commander has ordered the entire 'fleet' stand down	[22:48]
mircea_popescu:	how many were they ? a dozen yet ?	[22:48]
ben_vulpes:	if even that	[22:49]
ben_vulpes:	one apparently destroyed an engine ("engineering casualty") and another hosed it's combining gears?!	[22:50]
mircea_popescu:	come to think of it, womenz also can't keep seawater out of their engine lube system, which is why surffucking is so strictly limited to teenagers.	[22:50]
mircea_popescu:	ben_vulpes i recall a month or so ago when this happened and they tried to blame it on the crew.	[22:50]
ben_vulpes:	thank goodness for perl	[22:50]
ben_vulpes:	ofc blame it on the crew, what is lockheed to deliver serviceable machines with complete manuals all of a sudden?	[22:51]
mircea_popescu:	but since it's invertible compiler day, http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/why-russia-china-should-fear-americas-littoral-combat-ships-17440	[22:51]
asciilifeform:	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-07#1535582 << what am i looking at here?	[22:51]
a111:	Logged on 2016-09-07 02:11 alice_: │ _ X ʷ ᵉ ʳ ᵗ ʸ ᵘ ⁱ ᵒ ᵖ _ _ _ │ │ _ X ᵂ ᴱ ᴿ ᵀ X ᵁ ᴵ ᴼ ᴾ _ _ _ │	[22:51]
alice_:	https://github.com/alice0meta/scratch/blob/master/dotfiles/.keyrc	[22:52]
ben_vulpes:	subject of manuals, a onetime airforce honcho straigh up vetoed the delivery of f22 manuals in xml (!), as pilots couldn't take the un-sensitive stuff home without also taking the sensitive stuff home as it was delivered	[22:52]
asciilifeform:	alice_: apl, 'j', 'k' aficionado?	[22:53]
ben_vulpes:	and also, approximating his words "look with all the software problems they'd already delivered in the planes i wasn't about to impose more on the poor pilots during their studies. plus, opportunity to hose the suppliers."	[22:53]
asciilifeform:	'lucid' ?	[22:53]
alice_:	asciilifeform: never used any of those. a fan of some of their patterns. i'm a fan of a lot of patterns i've seen in a lot of different existing programming environments.	[22:54]
mircea_popescu:	ben_vulpes so they printed them ?	[22:54]
asciilifeform:	alice_: https://github.com/alice0meta/scratch/blob/master/regex_set.ζ << what, then, is this?	[22:55]
alice_:	e.g. ML is a sharp, crystalline beauty, mostly useless for my direct purpose but v inspiring, 'cuz it's got several neat patterns that i don't see in most popular environments	[22:55]
ben_vulpes:	typeset properly and segregated vault-reading from home-reading as the story goes	[22:55]
ben_vulpes:	same guy was running ops when they took the f22s over the international date line	[22:55]
ben_vulpes:	"hooo boy lemme tell you about the hundreds of millions of dollars wasted on that mission!"	[22:56]
ben_vulpes:	"..."	[22:56]
asciilifeform:	ben_vulpes: as opposed to well-spent on other missions?	[22:56]
ben_vulpes:	"at which point we had ready teams hot on airfields on 2 continents!"	[22:56]
ben_vulpes:	well, what, as	[22:56]
ben_vulpes:	^^ disregard	[22:57]
alice_:	asciilifeform: prints a regex character class which matches all of the code points in utf8 stdin	[22:57]
asciilifeform:	in what?	[22:57]
trinque:	more importantly, are you now, or have you ever been a brony	[22:57]
mircea_popescu:	80/20.	[22:57]
ben_vulpes:	mircea_popescu: nobody's claiming the dollars are ever well spent, or that fucking is done in some new way	[22:57]
alice_:	asciilifeform: ? like, if i paste the last several lines into it, i get \n -#'-:<>?LMX[\]-\_a-pr-zʳʷʸζᴱᴵᴼᴾ-ᵂᵉᵒᵖ-ᵘⁱ│	[22:58]
asciilifeform:	in ~what~ ??	[22:58]
alice_:	stdout	[22:58]
asciilifeform:	my bash doesn't have a lambda.	[22:58]
mircea_popescu:	this is going well.	[22:58]
ben_vulpes:	(but hey that particular porno is worth a watch, and that particular report of wastage entertaining)	[22:58]
asciilifeform:	dunno where you got yours, alice_ .	[22:58]
asciilifeform:	jupiter?	[22:58]
asciilifeform:	!!up alice_	[22:59]
deedbot:	alice_ voiced for 30 minutes.	[22:59]
alice_:	oh, are you asking what regex_set.ζ is written in? it's ζ, which is almost javascript	[22:59]
alice_:	http://pastebin.com/raw/twiJaniQ	[23:00]
alice_:	i can do Normal Startup Coding Style if i want to, i just hate it so i don't when i don't have to	[23:01]
alice_:	trinque: i don't like your face	[23:03]
asciilifeform:	!!up gabriel_laddel	[23:04]
deedbot:	gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes.	[23:04]
trinque:	!!down alice_	[23:04]
asciilifeform:	!!up alice_	[23:04]
deedbot:	alice_ voiced for 30 minutes.	[23:04]
asciilifeform:	trinque: let it live	[23:04]
* trinque	oinks a bit, allows	[23:04]
asciilifeform:	trinque: how we gonna know what it is if we don't plant it in agar.	[23:04]
mircea_popescu:	invertible agar ?	[23:05]
asciilifeform:	gabriel_laddel: meet alice_ .	[23:05]
asciilifeform:	who had the honour of being suspected of being gabriel_laddel-in-his-cups	[23:05]
asciilifeform:	eh.	[23:05]
mircea_popescu:	maybe he's offended.	[23:06]
asciilifeform:	did his modem run out of petrol or wut.	[23:06]
alice_:	usually i run modems on vegetable oil	[23:06]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: didntcha post a photo of an invertible toilet once?	[23:06]
asciilifeform:	i cannot help but think of it now.	[23:07]
mircea_popescu:	possibly ? what'd it invert to ?	[23:08]
asciilifeform:	there was a box for a head at the outlet.	[23:09]
mircea_popescu:	aw fuck.... this is vaguely familiar...	[23:09]
asciilifeform:	manned, so to speak, on both ends.	[23:09]
trinque:	there's a whole genre of japanese porn of this	[23:10]
asciilifeform:	alice_: where do you keep the lambda on your physical kbd ?	[23:11]
trinque:	http://www.nudepetgirls.com/wp-content/images/human-furniture-sdms591.jpg << check it out, all kinds of furniture	[23:11]
mircea_popescu:	girlfurniture surely is a large fetish thing.	[23:11]
* asciilifeform	sees odd leg count, EGGOGs	[23:11]
mircea_popescu:	YOU DON'T NEED ALL LEGS TO TABLE!	[23:12]
* asciilifeform	then notices mirror.	[23:12]
alice_:	l (chord of semicolon and L) , defined in https://github.com/alice0meta/scratch/blob/master/dotfiles/.keyrc#L10	[23:12]
mircea_popescu:	it's not mirror, it's just girl with black shoes has right leg behind white shoe's lef	[23:12]
asciilifeform:	or wait.	[23:12]
asciilifeform:	lel	[23:12]
asciilifeform:	alice_: chord?!	[23:12]
asciilifeform:	not even shift-meta etc, but chord!?	[23:13]
asciilifeform:	what if my right hand is tired.	[23:13]
asciilifeform:	what then.	[23:13]
alice_:	yes. if the keys are pressed within a small number of milliseconds.	[23:13]
alice_:	then you are a person whose right hand gets tired and you should not use this exact system	[23:13]
asciilifeform:	i know what is a chord.	[23:14]
BingoBoingo:	!~step5	[23:14]
jhvh1:	5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.	[23:14]
trinque:	lol	[23:14]
asciilifeform:	http://www.loper-os.org/?p=861 << proper chords are 1handed.	[23:14]
mircea_popescu:	^	[23:14]
alice_:	semicolon L is one handed	[23:14]
alice_:	all chords i use frequently are one handed	[23:15]
asciilifeform:	lambda yes	[23:15]
asciilifeform:	alpha no.	[23:15]
alice_:	i don't use α frequently	[23:16]
alice_:	i added sd as a chord for ι because i do use ι frequently	[23:16]
asciilifeform:	for what.	[23:17]
alice_:	it's my Standard pronoun, my It	[23:17]
alice_:	most programmers use x or value	[23:17]
alice_:	if they're smart enough to use a standard pronoun :P	[23:17]
asciilifeform:	what's wrong with 'it' ?	[23:17]
trinque:	or describing the damned value	[23:18]
asciilifeform:	as per grahm's original anaphorics system	[23:18]
alice_:	violates huffman coding	[23:18]
alice_:	huffman coding is important	[23:18]
asciilifeform:	how does it violate ?	[23:18]
alice_:	short variables for simple common things longer names for less common things	[23:18]
alice_:	more complex things	[23:18]
mircea_popescu:	god almighty, it's like a pregnant idiot delivered stupid all over the fucking logs already.	[23:18]
alice_:	a powerful pattern	[23:18]
mircea_popescu:	are you almost done asciilifeform ?	[23:18]
asciilifeform:	if i have to press 2 keys, it is 2 keys long.	[23:18]
alice_:	so use x	[23:19]
alice_:	i don't mind pressing s and d at the same time, myself	[23:19]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: i think this was sent to us as gift from ze godz per this morning's thread.	[23:19]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu wins that one.	[23:19]
mircea_popescu:	mk, ima go to bed. if anyone wants to talk to me send tells, i'm not gonna be reading this log.	[23:20]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu and alice_ hasn't told us about cultivating multiple personalities yet !!	[23:20]
alice_:	i haven't ever interacted with this channel before :(	[23:20]
asciilifeform:	but we know how to read...	[23:21]
trinque:	asciilifeform: they made more than one y'know	[23:21]
trinque:	mass produced even	[23:21]
asciilifeform:	trinque: eh wat?	[23:21]
trinque:	who are the other posited personalities	[23:21]
alice_:	tell me about the thing you're confusing me with, i am curious	[23:21]
asciilifeform:	https://archive.is/ApHv4 << ?	[23:24]
trinque:	olol	[23:24]
trinque:	well I already mentioned another	[23:25]
asciilifeform:	trinque: show ?	[23:25]
asciilifeform:	'i showed you mine, show me yours!'	[23:25]
alice_:	yes, that's me	[23:25]
alice_:	do you have questions about me or	[23:26]
asciilifeform:	alice_: describe, approximately, what is a you. (e.g., butcher, baker, oil prospector, bankrupt lisp programmer, etc) ?	[23:26]
trinque:	https://www.google.com/images?q=alice0meta << brony	[23:27]
asciilifeform:	trinque: i have nfi what this is.	[23:27]
alice_:	haha	[23:27]
trinque:	afaik you identify as a pony or some shit	[23:27]
trinque:	alice_: pls explain.	[23:28]
alice_:	that's cuz you're an asshole	[23:28]
alice_:	i don't actually	[23:28]
asciilifeform:	and whatever, maybe alice_ identifies as an old rusted kriegsmarine anchor in scapa flow, scotland.	[23:29]
alice_:	asciilifeform: i am a young transhumanist-hopeful type. i've supported myself with programming before currently i'm living off savings & spending time studying shit	[23:29]
BingoBoingo:	<alice_> e.g. ML is a sharp, crystalline beauty, mostly useless for my direct purpose but v inspiring, 'cuz it's got several neat patterns that i don't see in most popular environments << "v inspiring" is a term of art here	[23:29]
alice_:	i honestly can't tell if you're insulting me or complimenting me	[23:29]
asciilifeform:	alice_: what sort of programming ?	[23:30]
alice_:	outside view says insult	[23:30]
asciilifeform:	vs what sort of view	[23:30]
alice_:	mostly shitty website frontend & backend stuff	[23:30]
asciilifeform:	salt mine, eh.	[23:31]
alice_:	outside vs inside view from Kahneman	[23:31]
* asciilifeform	bbl, dinner is served.	[23:31]
BingoBoingo:	!~step9	[23:35]
jhvh1:	9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.	[23:35]
BingoBoingo:	^ alf	[23:35]
BingoBoingo:	!!up alice_	[23:36]
deedbot:	alice_ voiced for 30 minutes.	[23:36]
BingoBoingo:	!~step3	[23:41]
jhvh1:	3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.	[23:41]
BingoBoingo:	^ alice_ see above line	[23:41]
alice_:	what	[23:41]
BingoBoingo:	work the fucking step in your everyday life, with exactly the desperation of the dying	[23:42]
alice_:	um	[23:42]
alice_:	i don't do christianity	[23:42]
BingoBoingo:	Many tried to find an easier, softer way, but they could not.	[23:43]
BingoBoingo:	alice_: Not Xtianity, bolt it onto the belief system of your choice	[23:44]
alice_:	i'm looking for a harder, more powerful way	[23:45]
BingoBoingo:	Whether God as you understand him is Satan, Our Noodly host, or deedbot	[23:45]
BingoBoingo:	alice_: Then go to	[23:45]
BingoBoingo:	!~step4	[23:45]
jhvh1:	4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.	[23:45]
trinque:	nb	[23:45]
alice_:	p sure i did that	[23:45]
BingoBoingo:	k, then	[23:46]
BingoBoingo:	!~step5	[23:46]
jhvh1:	5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.	[23:46]
alice_:	am making progress on that. say 70% done.	[23:47]
BingoBoingo:	!~step6	[23:47]
jhvh1:	6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.	[23:47]
alice_:	god's an asshole, and it's complicated. i'm ready for anything i can understand as progress.	[23:49]
BingoBoingo:	alice_: Well no you aren't because there's lots of logs to read that you haven't. Go back to step2.	[23:50]
BingoBoingo:	!!down alice_	[23:50]
BingoBoingo:	!~ty shinohai	[23:51]
jhvh1:	You are very welcome Daddy	[23:51]
BingoBoingo:	!!up alice_	[23:53]
deedbot:	alice_ voiced for 30 minutes.	[23:53]
BingoBoingo:	!~step2	[23:54]
jhvh1:	2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.	[23:54]
alice_:	you are horrifying	[23:55]
alice_:	disgusting	[23:55]
BingoBoingo:	But I have an inner peace to match my outer peace. What do you have today?	[23:56]
alice_:	inner peace	[23:56]
asciilifeform:	i walk out for half hour and they pull the bloody wings off, lol.	[23:56]
alice_:	i actually only got it last saturday	[23:57]
alice_:	it's really nice	[23:57]
alice_:	asciilifeform: i am very confused by the social environment here :P	[23:58]
asciilifeform:	alice_: http://btcbase.org/log << enjoy.	[23:58]
asciilifeform:	http://log.mkj.lt/trilema << other mirror.	[23:58]
BingoBoingo:	!~tradition2	[23:59]
jhvh1:	BingoBoingo: Error: "tradition2" is not a valid command.	[23:59]
alice_:	i know that's the log	[23:59]
alice_:	$help	[23:59]
BingoBoingo:	!~later tell shinohai pls to add 12 traditions	[23:59]
jhvh1:	BingoBoingo: The operation succeeded.	[23:59]

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