Forum logs for 06 Jul 2018

Monday, 16 March, Year 12 d.Tr. | Author:
deedbot: << Trilema - MiniGame (S.MG), June 2018 Statement [04:14]
deedbot: << ave1 - GNAT Zero Foot Print - Take 2 - No C [07:13]
diana_coman: that looks good ave1 [08:34]
ave1: thx diana_coman, It's now very minimal, mostly so that it can be understood as is. I'm working on adding all the code in so that at least ffa can build. [09:25]
diana_coman: what was exactly you couldn't build with gprbuild and needed the makefile for? [09:26]
ave1: the startup.S file, it needs to end up as a separate object file and not part of libgnat.a [09:29]
ave1: at least that's my understanding so far (crt1.o etc are also not part of libc.a). But maybe it is fine to put in, I haven't tried it yet. [09:31]
diana_coman: hmm, but you can in any case just write a .gpr that builds the object files for precisely the files you want, no/ [09:36]
diana_coman: or there's something I don't quite follow there [09:36]
diana_coman: anyway, this might be premature it's more that I'm surprised gprbuild couldn't quite do what you needed [09:38]
ave1: it maybe possible to creat a stand-alone object file as target but I haven't found that option yet (so far I worked with libraries and executables). [09:42]
ave1: Also, I just checked, it is fine to put the start.o in the libgnat.a so next step may well be that the makefile can be removed again. [09:43]
diana_coman: cool [09:45]
asciilifeform: ave1: pretty neat. 1 nitpick, however: generally you don't want memcpy and memmove to be in anything but asm -- otherwise whole proggy is abominably slow ( ada proggy spends quite a bit of time clearing buffers and passing fairly large chunks of data by value ) [09:50]
ave1: asciilifeform, yes that was my first reaction too. It does does something with word copying though and also individual files can be build without any of the extra gnat checks. So maybe the ada versions can be stand-ins so long as a native asm based version has not been written. [09:52]
asciilifeform: ave1: also keep in mind that you can't get away with not having the last-resort exception handler -- preconds and asserts demand it [09:53]
ave1: the last_change_handler is in there [09:53]
asciilifeform: hm [09:53]
asciilifeform: i'll read the whole thing and get back . [09:53]
ave1: the examples have two binaries, one simple hw the other triggers a constaint error [09:54]
asciilifeform: nifty [09:54]
ave1: now there was something with asserts, but I'll have to dig this up again and do a few experiments [09:59]
asciilifeform: ave1: seems like the holy grail, the bare iron gnat, is not far. [10:01]
asciilifeform: ( init the x64 page table, jump, serial port for i/o ) [10:02]
ave1: another holy grail, I thought the arm version was it! [10:04]
asciilifeform: !#s bare metal [10:05]
a111: 49 results for "bare metal", [10:05]
asciilifeform: ave1: ultimate brass ring is where we can dispense with os (in the usual sense) [10:06]
ave1: I have to practice my joke lines [10:06]
asciilifeform: lol [10:06]
ave1: btw, at this point would bare metal arm make more sense than x86? (at least some arm processors seem to be free of blobs and backdoor). [10:09]
asciilifeform: ave1: x86, arm, mips, at the very least. [10:09]
asciilifeform: asciilifeform in particular would like a gnat for mips, given as the latter actually fits in an ice40 [10:10]
asciilifeform: i took a shot at building one back in 2016, but ran into a buncha gnarl, which ave1 at this point seems to have mostly resolved [10:11]
ave1: yes, did you ever hear anything back from the russian mips producers? [10:11]
asciilifeform: nope [10:12]
asciilifeform: not 1 answered. [10:12]
ave1: It seems that the American one (Cavium?) is also unobtainable [10:12]
asciilifeform: the ice40 breakthrough however means that we can be own mips producer. [10:12]
asciilifeform: it won't be world's fastest, but will work. [10:12]
asciilifeform: ( and possibly can roll in not only mips, but e.g. a custom instruction for bounds checking ) [10:13]
ave1: I could see if I can port gnat to qemu-mips [10:14]
asciilifeform: << example. schoolbook mips [10:15]
ave1: Any MIPS verilog / vhdl code you can point too? [10:15]
asciilifeform: see above. [10:15]
ave1: Answered before asked [10:15]
ave1: thx! now if anyone can be bother to design a board with multiple ice40 [10:17]
asciilifeform: 1 will suffice. [10:17]
asciilifeform: the simplest (text i/o only) mips emul asciilifeform likes, is 'gxemul' , should suffice to test. [10:17]
asciilifeform: no particular need for qemu. [10:17]
ave1: thx, I will look into it [10:18]
ave1: I see, I'll have to learn verilog, I did not know you could implement a processor with so little code [10:19]
asciilifeform: ave1: FUCKGOATS src makes as good an intro to verilogism as any imho [10:19]
asciilifeform: ( illustrates a (write-only) serial uart, for instance ) [10:20]
asciilifeform: and state machine, etc [10:20]
asciilifeform: approx same level of complexity as that little mips. [10:23]
asciilifeform: it eats 71 of the 72 logic cells in the old xilinx cpld. [10:24]
asciilifeform: ( ice40 is about a dozen times larger ) [10:24]
asciilifeform: ice40, unlike the xilinx cplds, also includes 32kB of onboard sram. so possibly can have small cache, or extra registers, or some other useful item. [10:26]
* asciilifeform brb,tea [10:27]
ave1: I was reading through the fg design (doing experiments with circuit simulators to see how the RNG might work etc). I'll just continue with the next step. [10:32]
asciilifeform: ave1: iirc you also have an actual FG, can experiment with that. [11:20]
asciilifeform: ave1: feel free to ask q if you end up puzzled in re particulars. [11:21]
asciilifeform: ( the src is pedantically, painfully commented, but whoknows ) [11:21]
asciilifeform: ave1: simulator won't give you much useful to work with re analogue rng, considering that it relies on amplification of physical (johnson) noise [11:25]
asciilifeform: in other noose, herr asahara hangs. [11:50]
asciilifeform: ( took'em... 23 yrs ) [11:51]
trinque: asciilifeform: cuntoo tarball uploadin, poast shortly [12:31]
asciilifeform: oh neat [12:31]
asciilifeform: !!up Bigtexasbingo [12:32]
deedbot: Bigtexasbingo voiced for 30 minutes. [12:32]
Bigtexasbingo: Is it just me or did that French team not look very French [12:33]
Bigtexasbingo: Fuckkng golden state warriors of Africa [12:33]
Bigtexasbingo: Nigger all stars versus a country trying to be a nation [12:34]
Bigtexasbingo: Trampa!!! [12:34]
Bigtexasbingo: L [12:35]
Bigtexasbingo: Fraud ball [12:35]
mircea_popescu: hey, colonial empires. england's all injuns and france's all africans for a coupla centuries now. [12:35]
mircea_popescu: sadly for the us, they're all latinos. and it shows. [12:35]
mircea_popescu: << /me following this quite excitedly. [12:38]
a111: Logged on 2018-07-06 13:43 ave1: Also, I just checked, it is fine to put the start.o in the libgnat.a so next step may well be that the makefile can be removed again. [12:38]
mircea_popescu: i like his approach, ftr. tempered ingenuity, wiggle things one at a time towards the greater goal. [12:39]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it's a finger's length of asm away from iron gnat. [12:39]
mircea_popescu: just about [12:39]
mircea_popescu: and not even a long finger, he just doesn't comfortably asm is all. [12:40]
asciilifeform: funnily enuff asciilifeform posted the necessary asm a while back, but grrr can't find in log yet [12:40]
mircea_popescu: maybe we should asm the log, simplify array access :D [12:40]
asciilifeform: ( all you gotta do is to bring up the x64 pagetable and the uart, and you're home ) [12:40]
asciilifeform: lol [12:41]
mircea_popescu: anyway, let him be, this part can be easily patched in later anyway. [12:41]
asciilifeform: verily [12:41]
mircea_popescu: did i ever tell you the story of ye olde 8086 friend had that could drop into asm-er from bios ? [12:45]
asciilifeform: the packard bell thing, with the int19 debugger ? [12:45]
mircea_popescu: this "iron-gnat", i'm not even sure it's clear what a cool system it could make. [12:45]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform possibly. [12:46]
mircea_popescu: thinking about this, it's fucking evident what difference the online made for the thinking mind. yes i was a child, but child or no child, it didn't occur to me that i must have a gns link to the item that i like. "this" and pointing was an acceptable manner of reference in the 90s, because why the hell wouldn't it be and what's a global namespace anyway. [12:47]
mircea_popescu: very much the exact opposite of discussion. [12:47]
mircea_popescu: !!up Bigtexasbingo [12:48]
deedbot: Bigtexasbingo voiced for 30 minutes. [12:48]
asciilifeform: see also , , elsewhere. [12:48]
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 18:06 asciilifeform: now switching from the depressive tack, to the crackpot track, i ~did~ get high speed uart going on one of those all-in-one amd64 boxes. [12:48]
a111: Logged on 2017-01-19 23:35 asciilifeform: theoretically you can, e.g., host www on just an uart. [12:48]
mircea_popescu: << you definitely do. [12:50]
a111: Logged on 2018-07-06 14:06 ave1: I have to practice my joke lines [12:50]
Bigtexasbingo: Trampa [12:50]
mircea_popescu: << really ? name one ? [12:50]
a111: Logged on 2018-07-06 14:09 ave1: btw, at this point would bare metal arm make more sense than x86? (at least some arm processors seem to be free of blobs and backdoor). [12:50]
Bigtexasbingo: Just the colo. Rock chips [12:51]
mircea_popescu: ya well. [12:52]
mircea_popescu: in other lulz, apparently "screensaver" on "graphical linux", all flavours, BREAKS OPEN PIPES. [12:52]
mircea_popescu: i don't understand how they propose anyone use those things. "here's a pile of very important features that you must turn off one by one in order to get the box bacl" [12:53]
mircea_popescu: who the fuck even ships a "screensaver", what is this, the future ?! [12:54]
a111: Logged on 2018-07-05 17:15 asciilifeform: in fact, this sorta happened, recall the early crt tv and its xray killzone [12:54]
Bigtexasbingo: Brb, trying to conseguir un nave [12:54]
mircea_popescu: see Bigtexasbingo , online piracy, gatweay drug to marine piracy. [12:54]
mircea_popescu: next you'll be having sex, and who knows what other unspeakable horrors banned in boston. [12:55]
mircea_popescu: Oh, thou demon Drink, thou fell destroyer thou curse of society, and its greatest annoyer. What hast thou done to society, let me think? I answer thou hast caused the most of ills, thou demon Drink. [12:56]
mircea_popescu: Thou causeth the mother to neglect her child, also the father to act as he were wild, so that he neglects his loving wife and family dear, by spending his earnings foolishly on whisky, rum and beer. [12:56]
mircea_popescu: And after spending his earnings foolishly he beats his wife -- the man that promised to protect her during life -- and so the man would if there was no drink in society, for seldom a man beats his wife in a state of sobriety. [12:56]
mircea_popescu: and so on. [12:56]
mircea_popescu: o wow that's his irc client ? i thought he literally meant "mother". [12:57]
mircea_popescu: << this. "not as fast, but at least useful" (tm) [12:58]
a111: Logged on 2018-07-06 14:13 asciilifeform: ( and possibly can roll in not only mips, but e.g. a custom instruction for bounds checking ) [12:58]
mircea_popescu: << there's all that discussion of fabric fabrication... [12:59]
a111: Logged on 2018-07-06 14:17 ave1: thx! now if anyone can be bother to design a board with multiple ice40 [12:59]
mircea_popescu: phf do you remember why ave1 's thing isn't in ? [13:06]
mircea_popescu: & now [13:06]
mircea_popescu: ave1 re btw, what became of dlopen ? [13:07]
asciilifeform: ok here goes, ftr : >> sha512==e292a6d4296bc3cc63d2bc78bb7def807f7c4e9f8e630b292afec00b08c1fc2f8eeff5d074560804828ee7aee8ab5e43e698436c203c990d994863882e51446a [13:07]
asciilifeform: i will put in the log, what this is, and how to eat it [13:07]
mircea_popescu: " The hello world example from the previous installment can be build and it's size inspected. It is now at 2.6k (down from 54k) on my computer" aaa yes [13:08]
mircea_popescu: ave1 "can be built*" [13:09]
asciilifeform: 'make emu' builds variant that runs in qemu and (if you have x86-64 qemu) boots it. 'make sage' ditto but boots on a cold sage ( see & elsewhere ) . 'make sage-warm' boots on a warm sage. [13:09]
asciilifeform: there is a x86-64 pagetable unit, and uart init. some of the routines are in c, but quite simple to translate. there is a heathen printf, can tear it out, or use for hexdumps etc. [13:09]
asciilifeform: 'make dis' shits out disasm of whole thing [13:09]
asciilifeform: 'make emu-dbg' boots in qemu in singlestep mode. [13:10]
asciilifeform: the demo mainproggy, rom.c, simply prints 'Halted.' to the uart and hangs forever. [13:10]
asciilifeform: to build , needs nasm + any gcc whatsoever ( gnat oughta work ) [13:11]
mircea_popescu: ^ worth a check btw. [13:11]
asciilifeform: worx in asciilifeform's old gnat. [13:11]
mircea_popescu: nice [13:12]
trinque: << no, it's a script that'll build the system from scratch, using a snapshot of external deps [13:12]
a111: Logged on 2018-07-05 18:02 asciilifeform: trinque: is your item packaged roughly similarly to my rockchip thing ? (i.e. a tarball that i can unpack onto an empty ext4 , and jump into ) ? [13:12]
asciilifeform: hmm seems like i forgot to include the sage gdb loaders, 1s [13:12]
mircea_popescu: a minimal os + custom built fs (doubling as bitcoin specific db possibly written as raid firmware at least in part) + proper net driver (i really don't need iptables ad-hoc scripting lang to do what evidently and universally bitcoin node has to do) + grandfather pistols bitcoin code => an actual definitive package. [13:13]
mircea_popescu: ie, we've managed to stockade it, at least. digestion can then proceed. [13:14]
asciilifeform: updated the taball, new sha512==6b131ba3529ae9856f0befa260c1a477b068197a9e3b24571308c528bc1373c2ca71f6065e1146dbe9329f115a2fe53469f0d7528a729f73194d75365e7f63f8 [13:14]
asciilifeform: now includes whole thing. [13:14]
asciilifeform: the interesting from 'iron gnat' etc pov, is the *.asm . [13:15]
asciilifeform: boot_qemu.asm is the minimal x86-64 init and stage1 loader. [13:15]
asciilifeform: rom.ld is the linker memorymap magic, also educational, produces a bootable kernel. [13:16]
asciilifeform: not counting the printf or the makefile, 495 lines. [13:16]
asciilifeform: *tarball [13:17]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: to bake a e.g. iron trbi, or the like, you'd need to init and talk to the sata card, this is not given in the example ( but not particularly difficult ) [13:18]
asciilifeform: would need nic also ( see the old nic thread ) [13:19]
ave1: mircea_popescu, dlopen part is from the gnu libc, the init code (even for the static code) in gnu libs depends on functions from the dlopen.o. I think that then causes the whole dlopen.o to be included. I never could get the definite mapping (ld allows you to create a map but it was not helpful) [13:19]
asciilifeform: the given demo gives you uart and that's it. ( hypothetically could internet over uart, ye olde 'slip/ppp' ) [13:19]
ave1: I next tried to rip out the specific calls but these caused immediate segfaults [13:19]
deedbot: << trinque - Cuntoo Bootstrapper Preview [13:19]
ave1: Then I decided I could better spend my time on musl than trying to salvage anything from gnu libc [13:20]
asciilifeform: ave1: this is The Right Thing, let glibc go to the bottom of the sea where it belongs. [13:23]
trinque: anybody that wants to help verify the portage genesis.vpatch later oughta try building the musl gentoo in my post. [13:24]
trinque: maybe PeterL or danielpbarron want to give it a try too [13:24]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform right. [13:25]
asciilifeform: trinque: currently massaging ch11 of ffa series, right after this will test-fire your opus [13:25]
mircea_popescu: ave1 yes, just saying, mapping that out would be useful. [13:25]
mircea_popescu: because as it happens this is ready knob for "distinguish man from child". i can ask people, "but does your '''project''' dlopen" and well... [13:26]
trinque: asciilifeform: roger [13:26]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: whole thrust behind asciilifeform's initial colonization of musl was to be rid of dlopen() etc [13:27]
mircea_popescu: at this juncture i feel obligated to [13:27]
a111: Logged on 2018-03-23 04:14 douchebag: Okay, why do you guys liek arguing so much? Is this why you guys don't get anything done? [13:27]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you don't say! [13:27]
asciilifeform: heh [13:27]
asciilifeform: << to expand on this, with the linked mips example, already can haz e.g. 32bit cpu with no pipeline, no cache, etc ~but~ fits in ice40. [13:32]
a111: Logged on 2018-07-06 16:58 mircea_popescu: << this. "not as fast, but at least useful" (tm) [13:32]
asciilifeform: ice40 + a coupla MB of sram -- and you can (not very quickly, but) crypto. [13:33]
asciilifeform: should even be enuff gates left over to roll in FG logic. [13:35]
asciilifeform: !!up Bigtexasbingo [13:58]
deedbot: Bigtexasbingo voiced for 30 minutes. [13:58]
mircea_popescu: lmao. let's ban him ? [14:01]
mircea_popescu: meanwhile " In 2014 Dundee was recognised by the United Nations as the UK's first UNESCO City of Design for its diverse contributions to fields including medical research, comics and video games." [14:24]
mircea_popescu: just thought you folks would like to know. [14:24]
diana_coman: si pentru spiritul tovarasesc! [14:26]
mircea_popescu: lol [14:26]
mircea_popescu: au si ei caracal. [14:26]
asciilifeform: caracal?! the african wild cat ?? [14:45]
mircea_popescu: city in the dumb-but-cocky part of romania, famous principally for the "seven wonders of stupidty" [14:45]
asciilifeform: ahahaha [14:45]
mircea_popescu: including building in a large crane, that couldn't be extracred any longer [14:45]
asciilifeform: догоним и перегоним америку (tm)(r) [14:45]
mircea_popescu: (ro used the prefab construction process -- first, send mining equipment, flatten land then, put in rail then, roll out a rail crane, and roll prefab on cars up to it then move the derivation [14:46]
mircea_popescu: can make 1mn sqm of hruscheba per week with this [14:46]
asciilifeform: same method as used here. [14:46]
mircea_popescu: aha. [14:46]
asciilifeform: ( in usa hruscheba is build in ~week or 2, as they make from cardboard ) [14:46]
mircea_popescu: these were the original prefab, poured concrete. [14:47]
mircea_popescu: 20 tons per panel or somesuch. [14:47]
asciilifeform: well yes, as seen in literally erry place other than usa and perhaps jp ) [14:47]
asciilifeform: ( in montevideo asciilifeform saw perfectly on-spec hruschebas , panels & all ) [14:47]
mircea_popescu: aha. [14:47]
mircea_popescu: aanyways, shall bbl. [14:48]
asciilifeform: << curious what this was about. ... open ssh pipes ? i've yet to see this wonder. dollars to doughnuts it's a shituntu etc box with acpi sleep . [15:07]
a111: Logged on 2018-07-06 16:52 mircea_popescu: in other lulz, apparently "screensaver" on "graphical linux", all flavours, BREAKS OPEN PIPES. [15:07]
asciilifeform: winblowz style. can kill it either in bios setup or somewhere in the heathen configs. [15:08]
asciilifeform: ( or better yet, just say no to shituntu ) [15:09]
BingoBoingo: The abject sadness in this town [18:04]
BingoBoingo: Of all the people who could be sad, the Brasileros are saddest [18:07]
BingoBoingo: Who would have thought Brasileros could be sad about fraudball? [18:13]
BingoBoingo: Brb still shopping for at least a frigate [18:13]
phf: << there's no reason, i literally just returned from the walk where i remembered some outstanding things i need to do, that was one of them. [19:04]
a111: Logged on 2018-07-06 17:06 mircea_popescu: phf do you remember why ave1 's thing isn't in ? [19:04]
phf: i think there's also something from esthlos.. [19:04]
trinque: yep, dood has a vtron [19:05]
phf: ah yes, i thought there was something else. does his vtron use keccak by the way, or it's still a shasum -a 512 call out? [19:06]
trinque: as I recall just walks the strings present in that position in the vpatches [19:08]
trinque: can't say off the top of my head if it works with the keccak ones (oughta), but gotta run for now [19:09]
phf: ty, i'll take a look anyway [19:09]
trinque: shells out to patch, perhaps the intent there was to end up with an external patch util that understands vpatch hashes. esthlos, maybe shed light? [19:13]
trinque: bbl [19:13]
phf: considering the slow adoption of the keccak approach and also a large number of existing sha512 patches, i'm planning on doing a regrind where i merge the keccak and the sha branches together, so that vpatch/vdiff can produce both hashes on a switch, until further notice. [19:15]
phf: ave1: is missing [19:29]
phf: !Q later tell ave1 ^ [19:30]
lobbesbot: phf: The operation succeeded. [19:30]
phf: << unless you have particular preferences, i'm going to throw it into the same patchset as ircbot. it'll follow the grand ircbot tradition of a genesis that never the less relies on the adjacent patches [19:40]
a111: Logged on 2018-07-02 12:07 spyked: ^ phf, can you pl0x add this to the btcbase patch list? and ? [19:40]
phf: !!key ave1 [19:47]
deedbot: [19:47]
phf: !!key esthlos [19:47]
deedbot: [19:47]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes. [21:15]
mircea_popescu: phf define slow adoption!! [21:20]
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in truly obscure niche news nobody could possibly give a shit about, [22:36]
mircea_popescu: also, .ovh is a tld now. [22:36]
mircea_popescu: << this is possibly the shittiest "creative writing" 16yo paper i ever had to score [22:42]
mircea_popescu: "and i score it F, for get the Fuck off the premises, whore. education's not for everybody." [22:42]
asciilifeform: holyfuq what is this, scraped from bottom of spam trap ? [22:43]
mircea_popescu: hey, maybe BingoBoingo wants to talk to dylan for advertising strategic partnership. replace the uberlulzy block that serves me 3 instances of the same idiotic "Millonarios quieren prohibir este video - ¡Míralo!" [22:49]
mircea_popescu: anyway, retard's got a personal website, too. "Watch Limeade a comedic homage to Beyonce’s “Lemonade,”. Heartbreak turns into laughter in this comedy visual music album." [22:49]
deedbot: << lobbesblog - Sales Report: June 2018 [23:43]
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