Forum logs for 03 Jul 2016

Monday, 16 March, Year 12 d.Tr. | Author:
* ben_vulpes will be attempting something like that next move in all likelihood [01:13]
BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: Are you in the camp of fixing putting in essentials and being cool with not doing everything at once, or are you in camp alf who want to turn ghetto dirigible into yet another suburan cookie cutter thing. [01:24]
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo: my style of remodeling is to install the range and hood and for baby doll to apply finish and molding as nursing cooking laundry and meal planning afford time [01:44]
BingoBoingo: aha [01:44]
ben_vulpes: upper body work for those with upper body strength, finishing work for those who want things pretty. [01:44]
mircea_popescu: sounds like what made america great. [01:53]
BingoBoingo: No leaks in the plumbing, no arcs in the wiring, and you're good [01:56]
ben_vulpes: p. low bar [02:00]
BingoBoingo: High bar for camping tho [02:15]
deedbot: [Trilema] Why is that ? - http://trilema.com/2016/why-is-that/ [03:26]
mats: mircea_popescu: I was thinking of this http://trilema.com/forum-logs-for-05-jun-2016#2103841 [09:53]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-05 13:40 asciilifeform: 'civilization' yields bug-men and cn has 5000 yrs of practice, while white man is a n00b. [09:53]
mats: mircea_popescu: bare metal as in, a server intended for a single tenant, in contrast to 'cloud' [09:56]
trinque: mats: seems moar like you'd pay per request of whatever is offered through the UCI [10:32]
trinque: I'm thinking of it like "pay for access to API" [10:32]
trinque: whether that's me advocating what I want or describing what's been said [10:33]
* trinque shrugs [10:33]
mircea_popescu: mats myeah. the european notion of china is still very much a sort of "empire of cockroach". absurd yet perennial. [10:57]
mircea_popescu: mats no, the unobvious part in all that is, i suppose for lack of vocal underlining, the owner. in the uci model, any individual piece of hardware has one owner, who makes it available through the uci, sets the prices, etc and some tenants. [10:58]
mircea_popescu: trinque no, it's pretty close, a sort of universal api for computers. [10:59]
asciilifeform: re china, lulzy : http://lithub.com/modern-china-is-so-crazy-it-needs-a-new-literary-genre [11:00]
asciilifeform: 'Early in 2015, a department head at the National Development and Reform Commission was investigated for corruption. In his apartment they found more cash than they could count by hand. They got currency-counting machines so they could zip right through the counting, but they burned out four of the machines before they got a final tally, which was more than 200 million Renminbi, which is about 31 million US dollars.' [11:00]
asciilifeform: 'Second example. Guo Boxiong is a retired general in the People’s Liberation Army. When Guo was investigated for corruption, they found so much cash in his home that they couldn’t even try to count it with a currency-counting machine. They had to weigh it by the ton. They needed a truck to haul it all away.' [11:00]
mats: should've bought some buttcoins [11:01]
asciilifeform: reminds me of mavrody's 'mmm' chumpatron [11:01]
asciilifeform: where they ran out of where to put the dough [11:01]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-03#1495543 << insisting on working kitchen, so that i can eat food, and working climate machinery, so my five figs of b00kz dun rot, is 'suburban cookie cutter'? lolk. [11:08]
a111: Logged on 2016-07-03 05:24 BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: Are you in the camp of fixing putting in essentials and being cool with not doing everything at once, or are you in camp alf who want to turn ghetto dirigible into yet another suburan cookie cutter thing. [11:08]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-03#1495502 << continuing re the motorcycles, after reading some moar lafond, i realized why i've never seen them elsewhere: they aren't street-legal in usa - no tags, no lights [11:11]
a111: Logged on 2016-07-03 02:31 asciilifeform: whole thing is maybe as tall as a chair's seat ! [11:11]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-03#1495542 << ben_vulpes could literally buy entire street in bmore for what he is almost certainly paying in the white man's land [11:12]
a111: Logged on 2016-07-03 05:13 ben_vulpes will be attempting something like that next move in all likelihood [11:12]
phf: you get complete climate control with a combination of dehumidifier, window ac unit and an air purifier, which you can scale as needed. extra ac in bedroom, extra dehumidifier in bathroom, etc. [11:13]
phf: i suspect it's a dodgy proposition in the death area, because someone will definitely try and steal AC out of your window [11:14]
asciilifeform: this also. [11:14]
phf: (that's why you sometimes see cages shaped to window and ac) [11:14]
asciilifeform: but also that if you add it all up, it begins to resemble the cost of 'actual' house. [11:14]
asciilifeform: which makes the entire project wholly uninteresting. [11:14]
phf: well, i've added it all up, and it doesn't ever [11:14]
asciilifeform: for reference, 'actual house' in bmore is about 100k. [11:15]
asciilifeform: (of same type as the pictured one, but in working condition) [11:15]
phf: yes, and necessary parts for kitchen/climate control will run you 2-3k [11:15]
asciilifeform: LABOUR [11:15]
asciilifeform: not parts. [11:15]
mircea_popescu: in other news, http://trilema.com/2016/why-is-that/#comment-117906 << i just produced a proper definition of slave empire! formal and all! [11:16]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: link in the comment is broken [11:19]
mircea_popescu: fixing. [11:19]
mircea_popescu: thar [11:20]
asciilifeform: nope [11:20]
asciilifeform: still not clickable [11:20]
mircea_popescu: grh [11:22]
phf: asciilifeform: oh you're not thinking of installing those things yourself? [11:22]
mircea_popescu: did you reload the page or something ? i can click it. [11:22]
asciilifeform: reloaded. same. [11:22]
mircea_popescu: what the shit. [11:22]
phf: mircea_popescu: "<a hrerf=..." [11:23]
asciilifeform: phf: it is possible to install wiring yourself, yes. but the house will not be sellable unless you are licensed electrician. [11:23]
asciilifeform: this may or may not also apply to plumbing in that city. [11:23]
phf: i thought goal was zero rent, rather then resale value? [11:24]
mircea_popescu: https://archive.is/cXrc0 << somehow clickable there. [11:24]
mircea_popescu: ahahaha what. [11:24]
asciilifeform: phf: the goal is to not also have an albatross. [11:24]
mircea_popescu: phf no ? [11:24]
asciilifeform: quite aside from all other goals. [11:24]
* phf gives up [11:25]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: not clickable. [11:25]
phf: mircea_popescu: A _HRERF_ [11:25]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu must be using a 'postel's law' - 'attempt to transform barf into html' browser. [11:25]
asciilifeform: i'm about to ~hrerf~ [11:25]
asciilifeform: srsly [11:25]
mircea_popescu: hm [11:27]
mircea_popescu: o wait, i was fixing another one :D [11:27]
mircea_popescu: sorry guise. [11:27]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-03#1495562 << and the literary genre in question is "the us is so assburgerdly fucktarded it is its own, if marginal, genre fiction." [11:30]
a111: Logged on 2016-07-03 15:00 asciilifeform: re china, lulzy : http://lithub.com/modern-china-is-so-crazy-it-needs-a-new-literary-genre [11:30]
mircea_popescu: meanwhile rest of world continues, disinterestedly. [11:30]
mircea_popescu: get a load of these schmucks. step 1 : pretend inept, boring shit like "star trek" and "the assvengers" is fiction. step 2 : pretend even more inept, boring shit like "star trek 8" and "assvengers 7.3" is ALL THE POSSIBLE FICTION. step 3. pretend like the ~everyone who never gave a shit about the little island of crazy "needs a new something or the other". [11:31]
mircea_popescu: i suppose mormon smith imagined europe needs "a new kind of mormon bible". you know, the one they've had for about 2k years. [11:32]
mircea_popescu: seen Framedragger_ [11:38]
gribble: I have not seen Framedragger_. [11:38]
mircea_popescu: seen Framedragger [11:38]
gribble: Framedragger was last seen in #trilema 4 days, 19 hours, 49 minutes, and 24 seconds ago: <Framedragger> http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-28#1492083 << out of loop soo, many awesome bitcoin nodes actually run on the same host? kinda hilarious / sad [11:38]
mircea_popescu: trinque can has $seen ? [11:40]
mircea_popescu: or hm, prolly should properly ask of phf, actually. [11:41]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-03#1495567 << regarding this from a purely engineering perspective, what better proof that government fucked up with the printer, than when there's more dough THAN WHERE TO PUT IT [12:01]
a111: Logged on 2016-07-03 15:01 asciilifeform: where they ran out of where to put the dough [12:01]
mircea_popescu: now you know where Guo Boxiong's truckful comes from. it's a dropplet of the rain falling on all things from the comrade xi's fountain. [12:02]
asciilifeform: eh, the american variant (where sc4mz0rz stow imaginary printolade in faux 'havens', where their accounts get promptly zeroed out upon discovery) is scarcely an improvement [12:02]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-03#1495574 << omg window ac units suck wtf. [12:03]
a111: Logged on 2016-07-03 15:13 phf: you get complete climate control with a combination of dehumidifier, window ac unit and an air purifier, which you can scale as needed. extra ac in bedroom, extra dehumidifier in bathroom, etc. [12:03]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it is an improvement for the trees! [12:03]
asciilifeform: window ac sucks mightily. but perhaps 1% of houses in bmore have modern central air. [12:03]
mircea_popescu: there's a space between "window ac" and "central air". you can get a proper split unit installed. [12:03]
asciilifeform: incidentally an ac buildout needs a licensed freonist in usa to be street-legal. [12:04]
asciilifeform: what's a split unit ? [12:04]
mircea_popescu: just thinking about "window ac", wtf is this "feel good" nonsense. it clearly doesn't solve the problem, it just what, gives you the impression of a cool breeze ? [12:04]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform a split unit is this thing where the compressor and hot phase sit outside, for instance on roof, and cold head inside. [12:04]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: window ac is actual ac. just clunky. my first flat was inhabitable solely on account of one single window ac. [12:04]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that ~is~ called central air, where i live. [12:05]
mircea_popescu: unlike central air, you move freon gas around rather than air. so no huge tubage. [12:05]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, central air is when you have a huge tube and the conditioning happens entirely outside. [12:05]
asciilifeform: it NEVER happens 'entirely outside' ! wtf [12:05]
asciilifeform: only compressor ever lives outdoors. [12:05]
mircea_popescu: usually done for warehouses (originally, a thing from positive pressure clean rooms) [12:05]
mircea_popescu: but also done for condos here and there. [12:06]
asciilifeform: at any rate, ~any~ freon plumbing --> $$$$ [12:06]
mircea_popescu: sure. [12:06]
asciilifeform: hence window boxes, where the hot end hangs out and cold end blows in. [12:06]
asciilifeform: ruinously inefficient on account of their proximity. [12:06]
mircea_popescu: yep. and on account of wtf, window, srsly ? [12:06]
asciilifeform: yes window. the only usable opening. [12:07]
asciilifeform: and installable in 5 minutes. [12:07]
mircea_popescu: speaking of which, i dunno that i loathe anything us as much as THE MOTHERFUCKING WINDOWS. [12:07]
mircea_popescu: they have these tiny shits, more insult than window. and then IT ONLY OPENS HALFWAY. [12:07]
asciilifeform: there are perhaps 3 or 4 separate circles of hell in usa re windows. [12:07]
mircea_popescu: bitch, i grew up in a land where the window is an entire wall and it opens out all the way [12:07]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: photo ? [12:08]
mircea_popescu: uh. [12:09]
mircea_popescu: i dunno, stuff like http://www.ferestrepvc.md/ro/blog/preturi-modele-la-ferestre-si-usi-termopan-pvc-metaloplast-in-rep-moldova-chisinau ? [12:11]
mircea_popescu: obviously not the historical window in question. [12:11]
asciilifeform: ah hm [12:11]
mircea_popescu: for one thing, they were wood rather than plastic frame then [12:11]
asciilifeform: in usa this also exists, typically doubles as the back door of a house. [12:11]
asciilifeform: favourite place for burglar. [12:12]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform usually this is done for the 2 rooms (of 4) that have "a balcony" [12:12]
asciilifeform: aha, same here. [12:12]
mircea_popescu: it's a 20sqft slab whose main purpose is to allow the master bedroom to have proper windows. [12:12]
asciilifeform: quite typical in posh flats in usa. [12:12]
asciilifeform: quite impractical in ground-level dwelling. [12:13]
mircea_popescu: as opposed to http://www.crl-arch.com/Images/systems/us_alum/hurricane_resistant/iw8000/iw8000_hurricane_window_1.png inept bullshit. [12:13]
asciilifeform: ^ these are sop pretty much everywhere there is a window. [12:13]
mircea_popescu: yes, and it makes me want to put the drink down and leave. [12:13]
mircea_popescu: we'll fuck in the park. [12:13]
asciilifeform: the glass is double-layered and there is typically inert gas inside. [12:13]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform same for the ones i linked. of course. [12:14]
mircea_popescu: "termopan" [12:14]
asciilifeform: but yes, miniscule windows are mark of poverty, now just as in 16th c. [12:14]
asciilifeform: older american dwellings have titanic windows. [12:15]
mircea_popescu: ttp://calculator.fereastracora.ro/calcul-pret-termopan [12:15]
mircea_popescu: such poverty. [12:15]
* mircea_popescu just did the calc, ~800 bucks for 3.55 x 2.0 meter window, 24mm float glass x2 with argon filling. [12:17]
asciilifeform: no, no [12:17]
asciilifeform: the thermal cost. [12:17]
asciilifeform: amortized over the life of the house. [12:17]
mircea_popescu: lower than concrete wall. [12:18]
asciilifeform: american house has no concrete wall [12:18]
mircea_popescu: this window insulates better than anything full brick or below. [12:18]
asciilifeform: it has hollow wooden thing with fiberglass. [12:18]
* mircea_popescu shurgs so run a miner. [12:18]
asciilifeform: how does that help in the summertime ? [12:18]
asciilifeform: recall, shit-climate, cold winter, swamp summer [12:18]
asciilifeform: 'white man was not meant to live here' [12:19]
mircea_popescu: for srs [12:19]
asciilifeform: ergo tiny portholes instead of windows. and the other joys. [12:19]
mircea_popescu: such, such were the joys. [12:20]
mircea_popescu: incidentally asciilifeform anyone bothered to run the "fire hazard cost" "amortized over lifetime of house" for the shitty wood-glass napalm mix ? [12:23]
mircea_popescu: or for that matter the disadvantage of porthole + neon light "for energy efficiency" ? [12:23]
asciilifeform: what do you think. [12:23]
mircea_popescu: since we're doing externalities, let's do the whole shebang, not like i'm a fucking redskin and the oh-so-clever ustard is going to get to count MY externalities and just mine. [12:23]
asciilifeform: incidentally the bmore house had massive skylights. [12:23]
mircea_popescu: so let's hear it, brick and termopan window vs vinyl siding and shit on a stick. [12:23]
asciilifeform: it was astonishing, no mains current, and ~whole place was lit!1 [12:23]
asciilifeform: i was floored. [12:24]
mircea_popescu: will end up costing 100x more before i even get my sleeves pulled up. [12:24]
asciilifeform: i brought a miner's head lamp with me, and scarcely had to use it, except in the cellar. [12:24]
asciilifeform: nobody counts fire hazard costs. [12:25]
mircea_popescu: "nobody". the usg doesn't. i do. [12:25]
asciilifeform: poor schmuck burns down, another will come in his place. [12:25]
mircea_popescu: meanwhile, the usg counts "corruption" against me. i don't. [12:25]
mircea_popescu: it's a war, after all. i count their "innocent victims" even as they count mine. [12:25]
asciilifeform: i was speaking from the pov of the gosplan folk who designed this crapolade [12:25]
asciilifeform: the cardboard houses and all. [12:26]
asciilifeform: and one of the appealing things re the bmore structures was that they were from a previous age [12:26]
asciilifeform: and actually made of things like brick and lath-n-plaster [12:26]
mircea_popescu: yep. kinda what's driving the entire resettling of the injuns. [12:26]
asciilifeform: built in 1920s at the latest. [12:26]
mircea_popescu: people want the houses of the grandfathers back, can't built them anymore. [12:26]
mircea_popescu: apparently, they want them back so bad, it's even worth destroying the police over it. [12:27]
mircea_popescu: (yes, the deep reason amored truck is "needed" is exactly this : moving the injuns around will require some caterpillaring.) [12:28]
asciilifeform: i saw 0 tanks in black bmore. [12:28]
asciilifeform: they are used to keep it out of the white cardboard. [12:28]
mircea_popescu: to slowly resettle it out of historic east coast districts. [12:28]
mircea_popescu: which they infested in the 60s/70s. [12:28]
asciilifeform: i dun see it. [12:29]
asciilifeform: nobody's squeezing those folk out. [12:29]
asciilifeform: though, interestingly, i did see a freshly-built block of cardboard condos right in the middle of the red zone. empty. [12:29]
asciilifeform: just like the ones near where i live. [12:29]
asciilifeform: they are built by the thousands as a straight scam of the banks on themselves. [12:30]
mircea_popescu: aha [12:30]
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-03#1495657 << i have that one, it's available here, but premium feature. the kind of stuff you see on those "rich people in new york apartments" photos [12:40]
a111: Logged on 2016-07-03 16:07 mircea_popescu: bitch, i grew up in a land where the window is an entire wall and it opens out all the way [12:40]
phf: but have that at the expense of builtin "carpet" in bedroom [12:41]
phf: it seems like they can't quite get it right here [12:41]
* ben_vulpes had that while attending uni. 8th floor, poured concrete building, enough ac to make nipples pop, gas fireplace but *electric range* [12:46]
ben_vulpes: they cannot get it right here. [12:46]
asciilifeform: fireplace?! [12:46]
ben_vulpes: (swimming pool! parking garage! 1100/mo for ~750 ft2 and 2 br and 1.5 bath!) [12:46]
* asciilifeform at a loss for words [12:47]
ben_vulpes: 'fireplace' [12:47]
ben_vulpes: $newbox has one too [12:47]
ben_vulpes: but also -- electric range. [12:47]
* ben_vulpes wtfs [12:47]
mircea_popescu: phf builtin carpet is a misery anyway. [12:48]
mircea_popescu: parquet, area carpets, women with carpet beaters a few times a year. [12:48]
ben_vulpes: never vacuum the kilim [12:49]
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes electric range ? wtf is a range ? [12:50]
asciilifeform: american 'carpet' is a horror [12:50]
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: 'stove' [12:50]
asciilifeform: the main perk of my current dwelling was its absence. [12:50]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform irani imports, "persian carpets" in romania. the shit that was common middle class in my parents' house and is now untold luxury omfg. [12:50]
mircea_popescu: did we live through ww3 and nobody noticed ? [12:50]
* ben_vulpes has several of these [12:50]
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes if memory serves, they cost ~2-3k a pop, which is to say about the same as a hundred vinyls or so. [12:51]
ben_vulpes: i get the ~40 yo ones, only ~1k [12:51]
mircea_popescu: ~month's pay [12:51]
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes in dollars it'd have been maybe 30 lol. [12:51]
ben_vulpes: wat [12:51]
mircea_popescu: oya [12:51]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: re persian carpets, recall that we also had sturgeon caviar. [12:52]
mircea_popescu: aha. [12:52]
* mircea_popescu didn't6 like it. [12:52]
asciilifeform: and that in usa it is roughly same, by mass, as eating pentium-iv's. [12:52]
mircea_popescu: aha [12:52]
* asciilifeform like it [12:52]
mircea_popescu: well, kids taste [12:53]
mircea_popescu: i also hated eucalyptus [12:53]
asciilifeform: my point was that much of what was ordinary or even commonplace then, is scarce and precious now [12:54]
asciilifeform: as result of the march to ant-civilization. [12:54]
asciilifeform: from mircea_popescu's felt top hat to the bmore brick house. [12:55]
mircea_popescu: aha. [12:55]
phf: black caviar at local ru store is like $100 for couple of grams [12:55]
asciilifeform: aha. [12:55]
asciilifeform: from sturgeon caviar to cars made of actual iron [12:55]
asciilifeform: phf: i found it interesting that EVERY ru store in dc area stocks it [12:55]
asciilifeform: folks buy to celebrate something, remember old civilized times [12:55]
mircea_popescu: well, i imagine half their patrons are riggers. [12:56]
mircea_popescu: you know, like wiggers but russian [12:56]
phf: also i looked at the apartment in philadelphia that had wall window for the street side room, 14'' ceilings, hardwood floor everywhere. was built end of 19th century. and of course the rent goes exponential. instead of $1000 that was sop for the size, it was something like $2500 [12:56]
mircea_popescu: phf but for the floors, this is actually what the smart "fixers" do. [12:57]
mircea_popescu: high end stuff such as oak (we didn't count oak parquet as anything. we did peach, and cherry, and nut tree for the up end) costs to put in 1/5 of what it gets priced in as. [12:57]
mircea_popescu: so they'd blow up a ceiling in the entryway to make the house "look" tall, and so on. [12:58]
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> what's a split unit ? << motel wall unit. Pretty good actually for previously unconditioned spaces. [13:02]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-03#1495572 << which reminds me of this girl i knew back in romania, whose grandfather had bought her uncle an entire street as a 18yo present. [13:02]
a111: Logged on 2016-07-03 15:12 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-03#1495542 << ben_vulpes could literally buy entire street in bmore for what he is almost certainly paying in the white man's land [13:02]
mircea_popescu: things... didn't go well for them. [13:02]
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo aha. [13:03]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: didn't go well how [13:03]
phf: makes sense, though i suspect particular house was untouched, or touched up anyway. reminded me of some of the golden youth moscow apartments, thick beams of hardwood floor, tiny rooms with high ceilings, certain way the place smells [13:03]
asciilifeform: the smell! some of the bmore houses have it [13:04]
asciilifeform: it was quite astonishing. [13:04]
asciilifeform: prolly comes from civilization-era construction material. [13:04]
asciilifeform: shit-age houses, just like shit-age b00kz, have 0 smell, or unpleasant faint petro smell. [13:05]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well, jews from bukovina. first pass, the nazis. 2nd pass, the russians [13:06]
mircea_popescu: then communism... [13:06]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i suspect you detect turpentine. [13:06]
mircea_popescu: (~distilled pine resin) [13:07]
asciilifeform: where? in the new houses ? [13:08]
BingoBoingo: A<mircea_popescu> BingoBoingo aha. << Actually I was thinking mini-split. But yes "central air" in US residential use almost always means a split system. [13:09]
mircea_popescu: in the old. [13:09]
mircea_popescu: neh ? [13:09]
BingoBoingo: Anyways cutting a hole in brick to install mini-split in book room is nbd, just use a sawzall [13:10]
phf: tmsr's own S.GCON [13:10]
mircea_popescu: http://environmentalairsystems.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/100_0571.jpg << central air. here depicted, cheapskate marginal unit with flexible tubage. proper units have rigid tubes, do air purifying etc at intake point, force air through tubes. [13:11]
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo even easier in autoclaved cellular concrete, w/e they call it in anglolands [13:11]
BingoBoingo: AHA! [13:11]
mircea_popescu: can use tootpick [13:11]
asciilifeform: lel for a second i thought mircea_popescu dug up the photo of asciilifeform's attic posted last year !! [13:14]
asciilifeform: it looks almost exactly like this. [13:14]
mircea_popescu: lol na [13:14]
asciilifeform: $s from:asciilifeform attic [13:14]
a111: 8 results for "from:asciilifeform attic", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=from%3Aasciilifeform%20attic [13:14]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-03#1495583 << i would like to see your calculation, because actual experience contradicts it something sad. [13:18]
a111: Logged on 2016-07-03 15:15 phf: yes, and necessary parts for kitchen/climate control will run you 2-3k [13:18]
mircea_popescu: just proper fridge (1k at the very least) proper stove (about 500, fittings et all) dishwasher (another 500) touches your 2k. this includes no cabinets or other furniture, no retiling the walls, no holy shit expenses such as redoing the floor, fixing holes in walls or adding a section of roof etc. [13:18]
asciilifeform: nor rubbish removal [13:19]
mircea_popescu: and this is with free female labour to paint walls and scrub surfaces clean, and with paint, solvent and detergent included in the figures for the items (which alsoinclude transport etc) [13:19]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i have slaves. [13:19]
asciilifeform: not all of which can be done with own hands and simple equipment [13:19]
asciilifeform: do mircea_popescu's slaves have a duct cleaning machine handy ? [13:19]
mircea_popescu: last time i took over a place, ~50 girl-hours went into scrubbing surfaces. [13:19]
asciilifeform: it is typically a trailer-sized blower/vacuum [13:20]
asciilifeform: to remove rubbish from forced-air ducts [13:20]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform as i said, "no holy shit expenses" [13:20]
asciilifeform: scrubbing surfaces is something one can do, if pressed, personally. [13:20]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform cheapo scheme above, cheaper to replace the ducts. [13:20]
asciilifeform: l0l!!! [13:20]
asciilifeform: replace !? [13:20]
asciilifeform: tear up remaining walls, floors ? [13:20]
asciilifeform: havefun [13:20]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if pressed enough, can do with own face! [13:20]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform hey, depends. sometime "tear the whole shit down" is cheaper than fix. besides, if i'm going to pour concrete in my kitchen, i'd much rather pour the whole floor plane. [13:21]
asciilifeform: cheaper to dynamite the carcass and build new, than to replace plastered-in ducts. [13:21]
mircea_popescu: paster is fiddy bux the ton, neh ? [13:21]
asciilifeform: whole gedankenexperiment was predicated on 'fix carcass' [13:21]
mircea_popescu: myeah. [13:21]
asciilifeform: vs 'build house' [13:21]
ben_vulpes: 'reanimate zombie' [13:22]
asciilifeform: the real estate agent, an old woman, send me long list of similar properties i could look at. [13:22]
mircea_popescu: anyway, "<mircea_popescu> asciilifeform cheapo scheme above, cheaper to replace the ducts." denotes that in the "central air" image i linked, the ducts exist in the attic as free standing tin foil. they're connected to a grate in the roof of rooms. [13:22]
asciilifeform: but i dunno if worth the bother. [13:22]
mircea_popescu: for THAT arrangement, new ducts will run you 3-400 bucks and you're done. [13:22]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: they are such in the place i live now. [13:22]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: but not the bmore house's. [13:23]
mircea_popescu: myeah. [13:23]
phf: mircea_popescu: my calculations assume that you're not trying to move into up to standards place upfront. mircea_popescu: i'm thinking how much it takes to put it in a survival mode. fridge, stove and window AC, then you spend the next year working over the place on weekends. i had a few friends who did it that way, ended up with high resale value places when the area inevitably gentrified 10 years later [13:26]
phf: of course you have to actually be poor to do it that way [13:27]
asciilifeform: and yer time has to be worth ~0 [13:29]
asciilifeform: for it to even begin to resemble making financial sense. [13:29]
asciilifeform: (either that or you have to ~like~ shoveling shit) [13:29]
phf: some people like to go about that way as an avocation [13:29]
asciilifeform: i suppose, the same folks who build ships in bottles [13:29]
phf: my time is expensive, but it's non linear. i can't be hacking 24/7, or parsing information, sometimes i need to build things out of wood to let brain reset [13:30]
* asciilifeform likewise [13:30]
asciilifeform: which is why i contemplated the bmore thing [13:30]
asciilifeform: i like the idea of slowly building 'dirigible' [13:31]
mircea_popescu: phf so your survival mode includes what, food spoliage ? eating frozen dinners ? [13:33]
phf: no no fridge, stove and window AC as absolute minimum [13:34]
mircea_popescu: aha [13:34]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform like it or not, the time of about 1/4 of us female population IS worth 0. [13:35]
mircea_popescu: it's either "paiont and scrub this property" or else "go to school" / "look for a job" / ruin perfectly good food "cooking" and be bitchy about it. [13:35]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you familiar with the house structure as a cultural item in the middle east ? [13:41]
asciilifeform: hm? [13:41]
asciilifeform: probably not ? [13:41]
mircea_popescu: see, to you, or in general to white people of the tribe that invented houses, a house is a thing, a definite item. [13:41]
mircea_popescu: but to this dubious race of the east, a house is not a definite item. instead, it is a tower. [13:41]
asciilifeform: lemme guess, it is more of jet fighter to them [13:42]
mircea_popescu: the land surface of this tower reflects the importance of the clan inhabiting it. [13:42]
asciilifeform: ~nothing without crew [13:42]
mircea_popescu: the height reflects the family fertility. [13:42]
mircea_popescu: so, they do not have rooves, per se. just an unfinished floor, which has a foot or two of pillar reinforced concrete, with the rebar exposed. [13:42]
asciilifeform: ah yeah those [13:43]
mircea_popescu: should any of the girls manage to get knocked up, the family is drafted to pour more concrete, make another "roof" ie floor, and fill brick in between [13:43]
asciilifeform: worx great in latitude without snow. [13:43]
asciilifeform: or much rain. [13:43]
mircea_popescu: yup. ie, middle east. [13:43]
mircea_popescu: the thing being, that you walk around the item and know the social rank of the inhabitants, and then look up and see the sluttery of the X chromosome baked in. [13:43]
mircea_popescu: for the anthropologist, god damned fascinating, they're like a family-sized snail building its conch. [13:44]
asciilifeform: makes sense. [13:46]
mircea_popescu: the question to you is, are you building a dirigible in the white man sense or in the sand nigger sense ? [13:46]
asciilifeform: the former. [13:46]
asciilifeform: i have 0 use for the latter. [13:46]
mircea_popescu: not altogether clear this can be done http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-03#1495856 [13:47]
a111: Logged on 2016-07-03 17:31 asciilifeform: i like the idea of slowly building 'dirigible' [13:47]
asciilifeform: well that was my tentative conclusion. [13:48]
asciilifeform: possibly it can be done, but ~not~ on shoestring budget. [13:48]
mircea_popescu: well, not on shoestring meat, in any case. [13:48]
mircea_popescu: there's ONE thing the middle eastern guy has that white man can't replicate, and that is, a stable, and here i kid you not, a stable, of dozen+ pliable obedient females WITH offspring. [13:48]
asciilifeform: meatrobots. [13:48]
asciilifeform: aha [13:48]
mircea_popescu: the reason white man doesn't build the middle eastern tower may be whatever you wish it to be. [13:49]
mircea_popescu: but from HIS perspective, it's that you can't afford the tools. [13:49]
asciilifeform: crashed pilot on pacific island, eating caterpillars, also lacks meat robots. [13:49]
mircea_popescu: i guesd [13:50]
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's position is considerably closer to that, than to the egyptian paterfamilias. [13:50]
mircea_popescu: note that you're drowning in cunt, meanwhile. [13:50]
mircea_popescu: so no, not island. [13:50]
asciilifeform: 'water water everywhere, and still the boards did shrink' [13:50]
mircea_popescu: cairo, for the record, is a city ~the size of california. [13:50]
mircea_popescu: no joke. and yes, built and run like this. [13:51]
asciilifeform: army of meat robots may as well be cern's particle accelerator as far as i'm concerned. [13:56]
asciilifeform: not available, not gonna be available, not worth considering [13:56]
asciilifeform: not even certain that i would know how to operate it if it ~were~. etc. [13:56]
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> whole gedankenexperiment was predicated on 'fix carcass' << White gase camp stove is $50 to $350. There, kitchen. [13:58]
asciilifeform: maybe BingoBoingo's kitchen. not mine. [13:58]
asciilifeform: mine bakes cakes, etc. [13:58]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there's exactly two ways to construct value into this world. one's to take the 1/4 * 350mn / 2 = 40 or so million currently useless refuse and turn them into women. even if you only manage a small %, it's still something. aka, uranium water filtering. [13:59]
mircea_popescu: the other's, in the words of that pawnbroker ( http://trilema.com/2015/the-pawnbroker/ ) jew, [13:59]
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> and yer time has to be worth ~0 << NO, it just has to be worth less than (tradeperson wage)/(2 or 3) [13:59]
mircea_popescu: "You people? Oh, let's see. Yeah. I see. I see, you... you want to learn the secret of our success, is that right? Alright I'll teach you. First of all you start off with a period of several thousand years, during which you have nothing to sustain you but a great bearded legend. Oh my friend you have no land to call your own, to grow food on or to hunt. You have nothing. You're never in one place long enough to have a geograp [14:00]
mircea_popescu: hy or an army or a land myth. All you have is a little brain. A little brain and a great bearded legend to sustain you and convince you that you are special, even in poverty. But this little brain, that's the real key you see. With this little brain you go out and you buy a piece of cloth and you cut that cloth in two and you go and sell it for a penny more than you paid for it. Then you run right out and buy another piece of [14:00]
mircea_popescu: cloth, cut it into three pieces and sell it for three pennies profit. But, my friend, during that time you must never succumb to buying an extra piece of bread for the table or a toy for a child, no. You must immediately run out and get yourself a still larger piece cloth and so you repeat this process over and over and suddenly you discover something. You have no longer any desire, any temptation to dig into the Earth to gr [14:00]
mircea_popescu: ow food or to gaze at a limitless land and call it your own, no, no. You just go on and on and on repeating this process over the centuries over and over and suddenly you make a grand discovery. You have a mercantile heritage! You are a merchant. You are known as a usurer, a man with secret resources, a witch, a pawnbroker, a sheenie, a makie and a kike! " [14:00]
mircea_popescu: the only question before you, mr alf-form, is : are you a jew ? [14:00]
asciilifeform: supposedly. [14:01]
mircea_popescu: well in that case. [14:01]
phf: :) [14:01]
mircea_popescu: film's definitely a must watch, in any case. [14:02]
mircea_popescu: $s makie maker [14:03]
a111: 1 results for "makie maker", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=makie%20maker [14:03]
mircea_popescu: o i mean, [14:03]
mircea_popescu: $google makie maker [14:03]
deedbot: https://mymakie.com/makie/design/ << Makie Maker | Makies | https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/makies-fablab-design-create/id806174619?mt=8 << Makies FabLab: Design, Create & Style Doll Fashion Maker on the ... | https://mymakie.com/ << Makies - Create Your Own Doll! (US) [14:03]
mircea_popescu: apaprently, makie's fine! [14:04]
asciilifeform: dafuq [14:04]
mircea_popescu: it didn't luck out to be picked by the "identity politics" circus, so it's not an insult at all! fancy its luck. [14:04]
mircea_popescu: meanwhile, sand nigger is "intrinsically" insulting, dontchaknow. [14:05]
asciilifeform: anyway, asciilifeform is not a jew in the sense contemplated in the quote. this requires 'heritage' to stand on the shoulders off - uncles who will invest in your schemes, etc. -- but instead is more of crashed flyer. [14:05]
mircea_popescu: welllll then... [14:05]
asciilifeform: working with own hands. [14:05]
asciilifeform: (and 1 set of pet) [14:05]
mircea_popescu: so what, you're moses ? [14:05]
asciilifeform: whatchatalkingabout, moses had mega-meat-army [14:05]
mircea_popescu: only after. [14:05]
asciilifeform: before - it was army-in-being. [14:06]
mircea_popescu: seems to be the dream here - if i carve the right words into immutable functional space, mega meat army pops. [14:06]
asciilifeform: much more modestly. [14:06]
mircea_popescu: there are things upon which modesty is impossible. [14:06]
asciilifeform: testing hypothesis 'it is possible to build box to keep the rain out, with own hands and minimal expenditure' [14:06]
mircea_popescu: "modestly, m'lady, i just want my spunk coming out your nose, s'all." [14:07]
asciilifeform: y'know, the thing ~100% of our ancestors managed to do. [14:07]
mircea_popescu: no such wonder. [14:07]
mircea_popescu: no fucking ancestors built house for themselves. [14:07]
asciilifeform: plenty of folks did [14:07]
mircea_popescu: the ones like you, without uncle, fought hyena for cave. about as likely to "construct" cave as hyena. [14:07]
mircea_popescu: the ones like the jew, lived in house invested by uncle, see above re cairo. [14:07]
asciilifeform: at any rate, caterpillars are not find cuisine but that's what i'm gonna eat on this here island. [14:09]
asciilifeform: because what else. [14:09]
mircea_popescu: well, i'm nor one to ineptly suggest stuff. "Hey, you building house ? look into geodesic dome / $random crap!" because that's what i last read in Nature and i fancy myself a cultivated fellow. [14:10]
mircea_popescu: instead, i'm merely exploring the known, as found in this here endless library. [14:11]
mircea_popescu: perhaps it's useful, though i have no idea how it would be. [14:11]
mircea_popescu: that's your job. [14:11]
asciilifeform: hey i enjoyed experimental test for a change [14:11]
asciilifeform: vs armchair. [14:11]
mircea_popescu: you know what the next step is, right ? [14:12]
asciilifeform: hm? [14:12]
mircea_popescu: "bitch, get your ass to baltimore and don't come back until you've picked up a local." [14:12]
asciilifeform: ick [14:12]
mircea_popescu: this is why slavery doesn't work as an educational ploy without the whip. [14:13]
asciilifeform: why not send to fuck monkey in the zoo, also [14:13]
asciilifeform: and bear in the woods. [14:13]
asciilifeform: mega-project. [14:13]
mircea_popescu: it's not yours to question why. [14:14]
mircea_popescu: and importantly, pick up makes no specification re fuck. [14:14]
asciilifeform: wtf do i need the local fauna for. [14:14]
asciilifeform: srsly [14:14]
mircea_popescu: local fauna lives there, amirite ? [14:15]
asciilifeform: if you can call 'food depot' etc. living. [14:15]
mircea_popescu: do they or don't they ? [14:15]
asciilifeform: apparently [14:15]
mircea_popescu: and you wish to do the same. on your own terms, sure, but the point is - the same. [14:15]
mircea_popescu: gee whiz, what the fuck sense could it make to interact with the very subject of your interest! [14:15]
asciilifeform: when i go sailing i will be sure to also ask her to pick up some fish so we can learn from them how. [14:15]
mircea_popescu: aha. do so. [14:16]
mircea_popescu: da vinci also. [14:16]
asciilifeform: and learn to breathe water. [14:16]
asciilifeform: from them. [14:16]
asciilifeform: (notice i said 'go sailing' not 'build boat') [14:16]
asciilifeform: incidentally i factored in cost of NOT going to 'food depot' etc. and it is quite high. [14:16]
deedbot: [Qntra] US Plagued By Tainted Flour - http://qntra.net/2016/07/us-plagued-by-tainted-flour/ [14:17]
asciilifeform: ^ quite pertinent !! [14:17]
mircea_popescu: yeah you'll need cellar etc. [14:18]
mircea_popescu: but - on the upside, teach girl to cure meats etc, loads of fun uber valuable skills. [14:18]
asciilifeform: potentially. [14:18]
asciilifeform: cellar was not very large tho. [14:18]
mircea_popescu: in principle a household should be capable to intake 500 lbs of freshly slaugthered pig and craft it into food supplies worth ~1 1/4 mn delicious calories [14:19]
asciilifeform: whole experiment went precisely like my 'what would it take to launch a satellite' thing. [14:19]
asciilifeform: ... conclusion being, ~other~ folks, with serious economic weight behind them, can and do indeed launch sats. [14:19]
asciilifeform: poorfags - not. [14:19]
mircea_popescu: what capital figure did you come up with as ther threshold ? [14:20]
asciilifeform: i could say a number but it will be misleading, for same reason as the private jet thread [14:20]
mircea_popescu: hm ? [14:20]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-21#1486041 << it [14:20]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-21 00:38 mircea_popescu: it's a "have a hundred slaves" machine. [14:20]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-21#1486039 [14:21]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-21 00:38 mircea_popescu: in the sense a luxury car is "100k" or a cellphone "1500". yeah, right, read the maintenance contracts. [14:21]
mircea_popescu: well, let's have it, worry about that after. [14:21]
asciilifeform: again, the number is potentially $maxint, depending on how much of civilization you gotta rebuild in order to even play [14:21]
asciilifeform: because it isn't available 'retail' [14:21]
mircea_popescu: your experiment will have to be re-done. [14:21]
asciilifeform: as per http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-29#1492732 [14:22]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-29 15:39 mircea_popescu: no warehouse, no bauxite. [14:22]
asciilifeform: so for instance, upon first look it appears that 20-30mil u.s. will get you a simple 'bent pipe' launched into orbit, but then you notice that you gotta be in 3 different wots that asciilifeform isn't in. [14:23]
asciilifeform: and so forth. [14:23]
asciilifeform: and the cost of ~getting~ in, even if physically possible, is not calculable in any straight manner. [14:23]
asciilifeform: (what is the cost of becoming a circus acrobat?) [14:24]
mircea_popescu: i'd say high six figures in actual, liquid capital, should be sufficient. that's ~1k btc atm. [14:24]
asciilifeform: high six figures + being mircea_popescu [14:24]
asciilifeform: probably would work [14:24]
asciilifeform: high six figures and being a rube ? [14:24]
asciilifeform: just makes a dead rube [14:24]
mircea_popescu: work that asshole! [14:24]
asciilifeform: just makes for sore arsehole, neh ? [14:24]
mircea_popescu: but yes, granted, the spot's not for everyone. [14:24]
asciilifeform: see, that was my contention, that the thing HAS NO COST [14:25]
asciilifeform: not in the sense those 88 cent cans of tuna have a cost. [14:25]
asciilifeform: you have to 'be someone' [14:25]
mircea_popescu: right. [14:25]
shinohai: http://archive.is/MdA2J <<< Obama dreams of being nubbins` when he leaves office. [14:26]
mircea_popescu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otCpCn0l4Wo [14:27]
asciilifeform: note, quite a few folk have 1k btc, but no - afaik - launches. [14:27]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform complex. pretty thin middle class in btc. people > 10k or <100 , broadly. [14:27]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform bear in mind, however, that ~ANY woman can be trained to, eg, http://66.media.tumblr.com/9e19e1efb34b4219d13570f08d85a19f/tumblr_nv091t4hkt1uwpmxro1_400.gif [14:28]
* asciilifeform has no pertinent recent data and will take mircea_popescu's word fo rit [14:28]
mircea_popescu: it's deeply unclear to me the acrobat, rather than the stripped that comfortably dps, is at issue here. [14:29]
mircea_popescu: stripper* [14:29]
asciilifeform: and any house can be rebuilt [14:30]
mircea_popescu: in other words, i don't believe manhood to be much of an innate talent. there'\s good arguments for the position. [14:30]
asciilifeform: question is the labour. [14:30]
asciilifeform: not everybody is a born animal trainer. [14:30]
mircea_popescu: howevert yuou state it, manhood can't be much of a talent. [14:33]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu likes to roll all manners of particular mircea_popescuinities into concept of 'manhood' [14:33]
asciilifeform: so, e.g., if you dun like taming scorpions, you ain't man [14:34]
asciilifeform: etc [14:34]
mircea_popescu: yes. who's to call me on it ? [14:34]
asciilifeform: the alert reader!111 [14:34]
mircea_popescu: the alert man-reader or just merely reader ? [14:34]
asciilifeform: the alert martian-reader, hell. [14:34]
mircea_popescu: mno. no such wonder. [14:34]
asciilifeform: this isn't a sin peculiar to mircea_popescu either. [14:34]
mircea_popescu: so far we're working on whether it's, strictly speaking, a sin [14:35]
asciilifeform: only in the sense that a furniture store run by a giant is 'sinful' [14:36]
asciilifeform: selling chairs that ordinary man could put entire living room on [14:36]
* mircea_popescu also defines the grammar of languages, eg. romanian. and then "alert reader" calls him on it, and mp says fuck you, language is codified by the languagemaker, the poet and the genius generally. which is me, not you. now fix those cookbooks and laundry lists you call "grammar books" [14:36]
asciilifeform: next phase is of course full-bore tolkien [14:37]
asciilifeform: where existing langs aren't even enough for the truly 1333333333337 [14:37]
mircea_popescu: or late days gauss, of course. [14:37]
asciilifeform: aha. [14:37]
* asciilifeform understands this quite well. [14:37]
asciilifeform: the arses, however, expand very slowly, to fit the chairs. [14:38]
asciilifeform: a good chunk of gauss hasn't even been typeset yet (!) [14:38]
mircea_popescu: aha [14:42]
asciilifeform: in other adventures, i made the mistake of trying to set up a 2nd bl0g, for rubbish [14:44]
asciilifeform: and realized that if i were starting first one today, would prolly have just given up. [14:44]
mircea_popescu: heh [14:44]
asciilifeform: there is NO public software worth considering. [14:44]
asciilifeform: it is all liquishit. [14:44]
asciilifeform: and normally you can even tell from 5 seconds! of looking at author's page. [14:44]
asciilifeform: without even READING [14:44]
asciilifeform: just watching the js turds flicker. [14:45]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes, trinque, BingoBoingo, et al ^^ anyone have a counter-example handy ? [14:46]
mircea_popescu: you can just use my wp neh ? [14:46]
asciilifeform: i fucking hate wp [14:46]
mircea_popescu: sure. but it ~works. [14:47]
mircea_popescu: no shit. [14:47]
asciilifeform: would really like to dispense with the db crapolade. [14:47]
asciilifeform: i dun need multiple concurrent editors or whatever other rubbish. [14:47]
asciilifeform: strictly files on disk plox. [14:47]
phf: asciilifeform: https://github.com/kingcons/coleslaw ? [14:50]
asciilifeform: 'git for storage' ?!! [14:50]
asciilifeform: tr0l0l0l [14:50]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform then just write straight html, what. [14:51]
mircea_popescu: you can do it, all i use are like 5-6 tags. [14:51]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: too much sweat per rubbish photo. [14:51]
* mircea_popescu confesses to being tempted by such a scheme many times past, because that way the headers would be historically accurate. [14:51]
asciilifeform: it is probably what i'll end up doing, but it crosses over the worth-doing threshhold to wrong side. [14:51]
mircea_popescu: you can tell a shit language (html) by the fact that as it matures it goes back where it started from : infancy. [14:52]
mircea_popescu: write markup by hand wtf barbarism is this [14:52]
asciilifeform: aha. [14:52]
mircea_popescu: on the upside you can prolly have emacs macro to properly handle image linkage if you have a fixed scheme [14:52]
mircea_popescu: for names i mean. [14:52]
asciilifeform: probably but this is again the bmore house [14:52]
asciilifeform: suddenly what seems like 'trivial' work, balloons into a lifetime of crud. [14:53]
mircea_popescu: aha. [14:53]
trinque: I tend to use static site generators [14:53]
mircea_popescu: i ftr am very happy with my frozen wp cube [14:53]
mircea_popescu: from this pov. [14:53]
phf: trinque: i suggested one, ascii couldn't get past first line [14:53]
trinque: so write one alf [14:53]
trinque: they're an afternoon tops [14:53]
asciilifeform: mno. [14:53]
asciilifeform: not if you want it to actually work. [14:54]
trinque: wtf is this "actually" [14:54]
asciilifeform: (e.g., spit rss for trinque's bot) [14:54]
mircea_popescu: alf admits he is shitty codewright ? [14:54]
asciilifeform: i dun even DO wwwtronics!11111 [14:54]
asciilifeform: ferfuxsake [14:54]
mats: psh [14:55]
* trinque hated on the wiki recently maybe I'll write a CL html generator sometime soon [14:55]
trinque: I'll want one for bot doings soon anyway [14:55]
trinque: the idea of a "web framework" generating pages each request is insane, even on high-churn sites [14:57]
trinque: they do this, then "caching" gets involved [14:57]
trinque: cache on disk! in a file! [14:57]
asciilifeform: what i want is to generate them ONCE, when EDITED. [14:57]
asciilifeform: then serve up static. [14:57]
trinque: right!!! [14:57]
trinque: exactly that. [14:57]
phf: trinque: coleslaw is a static site generator written in cl [14:57]
mircea_popescu: trinque it's not as bad as it seems theoretically, on the grounds of apache being utter shit. [14:57]
asciilifeform: but 0 public examples. [14:57]
asciilifeform: 0. [14:57]
phf: ffs [14:57]
asciilifeform: phf: git. so no go. [14:57]
asciilifeform: i want NO DEPS [14:57]
trinque: V ? [14:58]
asciilifeform: srsly what is so hard to understand. [14:58]
phf: asciilifeform: git is an optional deployment option [14:58]
mircea_popescu: lol. srsly. [14:58]
asciilifeform: and editor via wwwbrowser. [14:58]
trinque: my emacs is not in wwwbrowser! [14:58]
mircea_popescu: in entirely unrelated news : so yesterday because pears were exceptional, http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-03#1495366 [14:59]
a111: Logged on 2016-07-03 01:32 mircea_popescu bought a coupla dozen, chopped them off, stuck in jars with clove, muskatnuss, a little alspice and about 3 bottles of cognac [14:59]
asciilifeform: a rubbish blog gotta be augmentable from devices other than battlestation [14:59]
mircea_popescu: today, tried the contents. pears delicious, the liquoir a bit strong. brewed fresh pot of coffee, added it in. OMFG best coffee ever. [14:59]
mircea_popescu: mpailey's! [14:59]
asciilifeform: sounds like mircea_popescu takes in more ethanol than water nao [14:59]
phf: wwwbrowser disqualifies coleslaw [14:59]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform bout the usual quart a week. [15:00]
asciilifeform: ah then normal adult man l0l [15:00]
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> strictly files on disk plox. << werc? [15:01]
mircea_popescu: anyway, to the topic : the lot of you've got to be insane to opine on the matter without actually trying the set-up i declare to be happy with, which also carries the endless millions of trilemawords, longer than any codeball ever written. [15:01]
mircea_popescu: but hey, that's just me. [15:01]
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: ? [15:01]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform how much is normal per your book ? [15:01]
asciilifeform: about quart, lel [15:01]
mircea_popescu: aokthen! [15:01]
mircea_popescu: we're white, what. that's what it's for. [15:01]
asciilifeform: prettymuch. [15:01]
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: By the cat-v plan9 people [15:02]
phf: BingoBoingo: that one's missing browser integration [15:02]
BingoBoingo: lol [15:02]
mircea_popescu: wait, so no www, no non-www ? [15:02]
mircea_popescu: and no emacs ? [15:02]
mircea_popescu: what is this, "do what i dream" ? [15:03]
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-03#1496119 [15:03]
a111: Logged on 2016-07-03 18:58 asciilifeform: and editor via wwwbrowser. [15:03]
mircea_popescu: ah [15:03]
asciilifeform: AND it needs plan9!!!! [15:03]
phf: i'm not even sure why i'm participating in this conversation, y'all just ranting over each other :> [15:03]
* phf goes to setup wordpress [15:03]
asciilifeform: i just downloaded, states quite clearly, that it runs strictly on plan9. [15:03]
mircea_popescu: phf gimme a sec ima package what i run. [15:03]
mircea_popescu: it's slightly modified. [15:04]
asciilifeform: oodles of shell crapolade in there. [15:04]
mircea_popescu: mostly for spamhandling purposes. [15:04]
phf: kk [15:07]
phf: by the way, what's wrong with current %seen? [15:07]
phf: %seen phf [15:07]
mircea_popescu: %seen naked sluts [15:07]
mircea_popescu: i dunno... you tell me ? [15:07]
phf: seen phf [15:08]
gribble: phf was last seen in #trilema 35 seconds ago: <phf> %seen phf [15:08]
mircea_popescu: heh [15:08]
phf: though could probably use same nick matches as that's used in from:, so that $seen ascii will return last of many ascii_field, ascii_orc, ascii_butugychag ... [15:11]
mircea_popescu: mhm [15:12]
asciilifeform: i looked at 'flatpress', and barfed, it is 1000s of lines [15:13]
asciilifeform: WHY [15:13]
asciilifeform: THE FUCK [15:13]
asciilifeform: does a motherfucking blog engine need to weigh 1000s of lines of ???. [15:13]
phf: presumably needed to "actually work" [15:14]
asciilifeform: retardation. [15:14]
asciilifeform: compare mass of, e.g., 'v' vs 'git'. [15:14]
asciilifeform: does v not actually-work ? [15:15]
phf: i dunno, nobody's actually using it [15:15]
* asciilifeform uses. [15:15]
asciilifeform: i will note that, e.g., 'Doom', was under 50,000 lines ! [15:19]
asciilifeform: in other nyooz, phuctor has crunched all of sks circa may 2016. [15:20]
phf: so do i, but we don't send patches to each other. v needs a distribute team to put it through paces, but every time we do, we et lively philosophical conversations as to how it supposed to actually be used [15:21]
phf: *we end up with [15:22]
asciilifeform: phf: iirc it ended with mircea_popescu's pithy observation that perhaps folks should not even expect to be able to use other peoples' patches directly, but rather each maintain own tree [15:22]
asciilifeform: and hand-pollinate [15:22]
mircea_popescu: not quite. [15:23]
asciilifeform: this, however, is considerably more painful than it has to be, because wwwtronics is liquid shit [15:23]
mircea_popescu: the statement was that PEOPLE SHOULDN'\ EXPECT TO REUSE other people's patches in contexts not intended by those other people but instead hand pollinate. [15:23]
asciilifeform: for some reason you can't presently go 'gimme asciilifeform's latest patches' [15:24]
mircea_popescu: this says nothing re common trunk it's a discussion of #import idiocy. [15:24]
mircea_popescu: it's strictly a "yes, shit and myelin both go into body, but there's a membrane between them". [15:24]
asciilifeform: thread concerned merging. [15:26]
asciilifeform: ended with 'merging is for lamerz' [15:26]
asciilifeform: 'Real Man merges by reading, then burning the telegram, and rewriting' [15:26]
asciilifeform: i did not come up with any serious objection. but it may yet be the case that this is a chair for giants. [15:27]
asciilifeform: as phf seems to suggest. [15:27]
asciilifeform: four-handed sword. [15:27]
mircea_popescu: it's just that i see a lot more compartments, separate, than is customary in "the profession"/"the biz". [15:27]
mircea_popescu: there's an inviolate margin between ideal-code and deployed-code for instance. which this crude notion of "merging" aims to breach. [15:28]
asciilifeform: how's that [15:28]
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> AND it needs plan9!!!! << It needs plan9 UTILITIES, available on any nixen [15:30]
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: realize, yer still talking about a WHOLE OS USERLAND [15:33]
asciilifeform: you don't get to not count it in the weight of the proggy. [15:33]
phf: only acceptable solution is 200 lines of ADA, that you can run on dos (equivalently baremetal) and needs www interface [15:34]
asciilifeform: wouldn't go this far, but ought to use the pieces already in the rubble [15:35]
asciilifeform: e.g., python, or whatever [15:35]
asciilifeform: 'phuctor', say, is 600 ln of py and 200 of c. [15:36]
asciilifeform: and probably could be considerably smaller. [15:36]
mircea_popescu: phf http://trilema.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/wp-mptargz.gpg << it's all there run a grep over the files for "fill your own" to see what you need to add you'll also need a theme (goes in /wp-content ) and obviously a mysql db. [15:37]
mircea_popescu: let me know if you have trouble standing it up, i'll debug for free! [15:37]
asciilifeform: ty mircea_popescu, this might come in handy [15:37]
mircea_popescu: if anyone else wants it sure - jus' say. [15:37]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's to his key. you want also ? [15:37]
asciilifeform: ah yes [15:37]
asciilifeform: plox. [15:37]
mircea_popescu: kk. anyone else ? save me an upload and speak nao ? [15:38]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform http://trilema.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/wp-mp-alftargz.gpg [15:39]
asciilifeform: ty mircea_popescu [15:39]
mircea_popescu: also - if anyone feels like undertaking maintenance for this, on like a V tree and everything, i wouldn't be at all against. [15:40]
mircea_popescu: for one thing - splendid entry level project to learn v without having to know wtf project 9 level arcana is. for the other - still some crud that could do with taking out etc. [15:41]
asciilifeform: it's got binaries [15:41]
mircea_popescu: fine apprentice job altogether. [15:41]
asciilifeform: so not v-able. [15:41]
asciilifeform: at least not in the whole. [15:41]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform a) which and b) why would binary be un-v-able i dun get it ? [15:41]
mircea_popescu: i could keep blockchain a [15:41]
asciilifeform: bitmaps. [15:42]
mircea_popescu: s a v item [15:42]
asciilifeform: gnudiff doesn't generate patches for bins. [15:42]
asciilifeform: so none of the extant vtrons are able to eat them. [15:42]
mircea_popescu: so ? translate them to chars like phf did for lisp. [15:42]
asciilifeform: yeah but this is not done in any extant vtron. [15:42]
asciilifeform: and it would result in gargantuan patches. [15:42]
mircea_popescu: as i said - still some crud that could do with taking out etc. [15:42]
mircea_popescu: nothing HARD tho. [15:42]
asciilifeform: i don't consider a project v-able unless it is 100% ascii text. [15:43]
mircea_popescu: everything is 100% ascii text. notwithstanding the damage iconoclasts of your tribe try to do to alphabet., [15:43]
mircea_popescu: oops i mean, iconophiles. [15:43]
asciilifeform: convertible-to: yes [15:43]
asciilifeform: ~is~ : no. [15:43]
mircea_popescu: mno. [15:43]
asciilifeform: hex dump != source. [15:43]
mircea_popescu: us farmland is not "covertible" to cussack range. [15:44]
mircea_popescu: it IS cussack range temporarily converted to shitplain. [15:44]
asciilifeform: one of the few useful concepts we got from rms was 'source == form-preferable-for-modification' [15:45]
mircea_popescu: "preferable" doesn't mean anything. also bitmaps should be svg'd. [15:47]
asciilifeform: svg is liquishit [15:48]
mircea_popescu: PROPER svg'd. [15:48]
asciilifeform: dun exist. [15:48]
mircea_popescu: so make it. [15:48]
asciilifeform: there's 10,000 man-years of undone pyramid. [15:48]
mircea_popescu: sure. [15:48]
mircea_popescu: 110408 total says wc -l. holy shit 100k loc omfg wtf bbq. [15:51]
mircea_popescu: anyway. most of the shit should be cut out with irons, there's room for maybe 2k lines there in like 3 files once one's done shaving the hairball. [15:52]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: how come all yer php has winblowz line endings ? [15:56]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: also, what 'allow from' ought to be used in the .htaccess in your wp-includes/js dir ? [15:59]
asciilifeform: also phf mircea_popescu there are remaining trilemaisms in there [16:07]
asciilifeform: grep -i trilema [16:07]
asciilifeform: (easy to fix) [16:07]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform whatever ips you use to admin it. [16:09]
asciilifeform: ahok [16:10]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform possibly because original development by automattic was done on windoze ? nfi. [16:10]
asciilifeform: lel: '// special handle for idiots:' [16:11]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the thing is damned flexible. [16:12]
* asciilifeform about to test-fire mircea_popescu's thing [16:12]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform does it wurk ? [16:59]
asciilifeform: not yet [16:59]
asciilifeform: fighting with db [16:59]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: wordpress barfs MOUNTAINS of 'deprecated: xxxxxxxxxx' [17:24]
asciilifeform: php crapolade. [17:24]
mircea_popescu: yup. [17:25]
asciilifeform: it fills MOST OF THE SCREEN [17:25]
mircea_popescu: i've been ignoring it ever since accidentally got upgraded. [17:25]
asciilifeform: unusable unless can be disabled. [17:25]
asciilifeform: holy fuck, ho w??? [17:25]
mircea_popescu: well yes. [17:25]
mircea_popescu: there's a setting in php.ini, "shut the fuck up". [17:26]
* mircea_popescu is hazy on the details. [17:26]
mircea_popescu: iirc this was in log tho, one second. [17:26]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2015-12-22#1350358 [17:27]
a111: Logged on 2015-12-22 14:29 mircea_popescu replaces E_ALL & ~E_NOTICE & ~E_DEPRECATED & ~E_STRICT that apparently GETS IGNORED ANYWAY with E_ERROR and fu. [17:27]
mircea_popescu: here we go. [17:27]
mircea_popescu: you want error_reporting=E_ERROR [17:28]
asciilifeform: where? [17:28]
mircea_popescu: php.ini [17:28]
mircea_popescu: in other lulz, http://67.media.tumblr.com/37905f5f3ad030995ecd4893d1589546/tumblr_nrc05kjNv61uy0bt6o1_500.gif << linked mostly for the amusing circumstance where the penis resembles a lengthy stick with a ballsac-bow at middle, and it's unclear to which of the two it's actually attached. such social commentary. [17:32]
mircea_popescu: "is the man fucking himself on the stick portruding from the woman's butt ? or is he contraiwise, impelling an attached probiscus into her hole ?" [17:32]
asciilifeform: hah i thought it was in a piano [17:33]
asciilifeform: but it is toilet and sink. [17:33]
mircea_popescu: lol [17:34]
mircea_popescu: the sturgeon eater, concerts on piano. [17:34]
mircea_popescu: the beans eater, concerts on ... organ. [17:34]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the php thing worked, ty. [17:40]
asciilifeform: or hm, nope. [17:42]
asciilifeform: i still get barf. [17:42]
mircea_popescu: you restarted teh apache ? [17:42]
asciilifeform: aha [17:42]
mircea_popescu: quote some barf ? [17:43]
asciilifeform: Strict Standards: Declaration of Walker_Comment::end_el() should be compatible with Walker::end_el(&$output) in /home/public/wp-includes/comment-template.php on line 1282 [17:43]
asciilifeform: and a bunch moar. [17:43]
asciilifeform: INSTEAD OF SITE [17:43]
mircea_popescu: it's not set correctly somehow. [17:43]
asciilifeform: (in wp admin panel - in addition to, on top of screen.) [17:43]
mircea_popescu: is it reading some other config file or somesuch ? [17:43]
asciilifeform: nope. [17:43]
asciilifeform: definitely it. [17:43]
mircea_popescu: hm. [17:43]
asciilifeform: THIS is the kind of idiocy i was hoping to avoid. [17:44]
asciilifeform: the 2 hrs spent fighting with db, that is WASTED work, also [17:44]
asciilifeform: because i did it before, years ago, and remembered 0 [17:44]
mircea_popescu: make a call to phpinfo() grep for "display_errors". should e Off Off. [17:44]
mircea_popescu: eh it's not wasted, simmer down. we fix it okay ? [17:44]
asciilifeform: 'display_errors => STDOUT => STDOUT' [17:45]
mircea_popescu: also [17:45]
mircea_popescu: error_append_string no value no value [17:45]
mircea_popescu: error_log /dev/null /dev/null [17:45]
mircea_popescu: error_prepend_string no value no value [17:45]
mircea_popescu: well so fix it! [17:45]
asciilifeform: fixed [17:46]
asciilifeform: i still get the strict_standards bullshit [17:46]
mircea_popescu: o.o nfi. [17:46]
asciilifeform: not only that, [17:47]
asciilifeform: but the site NEVER DISPLAYS [17:47]
asciilifeform: the control panel - does. site - no. [17:47]
mircea_popescu: did you get a theme ? [17:47]
asciilifeform: nor any page thereof. [17:47]
asciilifeform: no? [17:47]
asciilifeform: i thought mircea_popescu's tarball was complete ? [17:47]
mircea_popescu: that's what i said @phf. you'll need a theme. [17:47]
asciilifeform: oh forfuckssake. [17:48]
phf: hehehe [17:48]
mircea_popescu: well wtf you're gonna make a blog with my face on it ?!@ [17:48]
asciilifeform: lel [17:48]
asciilifeform: if i find out how to vanish the idiot barf, i can think about theme [17:48]
mircea_popescu: gimem a minute here, this is a little odd. [17:48]
mircea_popescu: but i have spun up half the php army, so something better come of it. [17:49]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform apparently this is not possible, to be in a situation where the right php.ini contains a display_errors off switch and yet the page barfs warnings. [17:53]
asciilifeform: for fucks sake. [17:53]
mircea_popescu: what php version you got thar ? [17:53]
asciilifeform: 5.6.23 [17:54]
asciilifeform: soo apparently 'error_reporting = 0' works. [17:55]
mircea_popescu: aha. [17:56]
asciilifeform: but silences ALL msgs. [17:56]
asciilifeform: and apparently now i have to write a motherfucking theme ?! [17:56]
mircea_popescu: well, alternatively download one :D [17:56]
asciilifeform: 0 published good anything. [17:56]
asciilifeform: as usual. [17:56]
phf: ok, i got it going http://107.170.141.103 (i'll shuffle it elsewhere so don't bookmark it or nothing) [17:56]
mircea_popescu: $google wordpress themes [17:57]
deedbot: https://wordpress.org/themes/ << Featured — Free WordPress Themes | http://www.themecircle.net/ << • Wordpress Themes - Best WordPress Themes for 2016 | http://themeforest.net/category/wordpress << WordPress Themes from ThemeForest [17:57]
asciilifeform: GOOD [17:57]
asciilifeform: anythings. [17:57]
mircea_popescu: lol. [17:57]
asciilifeform: they all have half a meg of css etc. [17:57]
mircea_popescu: oh. [17:57]
asciilifeform: incl the crap on my 1st site [17:57]
mircea_popescu: you can prolly reuse THAT theme acvtuall. [17:57]
asciilifeform: it is horrid [17:57]
asciilifeform: i have to massage every single graphic to avoid spilling over [17:58]
mircea_popescu: well yes, but you're currently using it. [17:58]
mircea_popescu: uh. ouch. [17:58]
asciilifeform: yes, using, it, because never found any improved [17:58]
asciilifeform: nor have any idea how to perma-fix this idiocy [17:58]
mircea_popescu: oh btw, this auto-resizes images. i just upload whatever and it gives me 560xblabla fit for the page. [17:58]
asciilifeform: and what about when viewed on a 4000x6000 display ? [17:58]
asciilifeform: also 560px? [17:58]
mircea_popescu: hey, what can i tell you! [17:59]
asciilifeform: none of this shit WORKS [17:59]
mircea_popescu: phf it has a pretty powerful antispam mechanism. it spits on people who try to send pingbacks from other ips than the blog in question it quarantines people who try to add posts with links to anything other than your own blog and it auto-spams people it recognizes on the basis of the already marked as spam. [18:00]
mircea_popescu: which is why originally you'll get some spam quarantined, but after a while it goes away. i see ~1-2 pieces / week atm. [18:00]
mircea_popescu: but to get this benefit, mark spam as spam rather than delete it. [18:00]
mircea_popescu: that's about all. [18:00]
phf: kk [18:00]
phf: this is smooth [18:00]
* phf has never seen wordpress [18:00]
mircea_popescu: old wordpress was pretty cool. [18:00]
asciilifeform: holy SHIT a theme called 'simple skeleton' is 400+KB. [18:02]
asciilifeform: nor does wordpress.org's directory let you sort by weight. [18:02]
asciilifeform: mega-unsurprise. [18:03]
phf: asciilifeform: http://107.170.141.103/?p=7 [18:05]
asciilifeform: phf: i have that one, turns out, on old disk [18:07]
asciilifeform: but it lacks essentials, e.g., search box [18:07]
asciilifeform: this has been a VERY depressing exercise. [18:07]
asciilifeform: not even because bit rot [18:08]
asciilifeform: but because the LAST time i did this, i had ~0 standards and didn't give a fuck [18:08]
asciilifeform: about ~anything. [18:08]
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> but it lacks essentials, e.g., search box << not an essential, jsut do qntra style archive page [18:09]
phf: asciilifeform: it's a widget you need to enable in settings [18:10]
phf: witness http://107.170.141.103/?s=wp-content [18:10]
asciilifeform: where do the themes even go [18:14]
phf: toplevel [18:14]
asciilifeform: and with what chmod [18:14]
phf: wp-content goes into same folder as wp-content, wp-includes [18:14]
phf: same as your apache www-data [18:15]
asciilifeform: chmod [18:15]
asciilifeform: not chown [18:15]
phf: well, so far i have everything as rw r r, but i suspect to edit theme you'll need to either chown to apache's user, or chown to group and add rw rw r [18:16]
phf: pretty sure everything except wp-content/uploads can stay readonly [18:18]
asciilifeform: i don't even HAVE a wp-content [18:18]
phf: asciilifeform: i linked it for you [18:18]
phf: http://107.170.141.103/?p=7 [18:18]
phf: you gotta engage with my blarg brah [18:18]
phf: i'm looking for those massive impressions [18:19]
asciilifeform: lel ty [18:19]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform incidentally, you can make theme as css light as you wish. heck, make it pure html barf. or for that matter, plaintext. [18:20]
mircea_popescu: also, trilema doesn't have search box either. wtf search box. [18:21]
asciilifeform: 'strip away the marble until statue is left' [18:21]
asciilifeform: so easy!111 [18:21]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform incidentally, merely formulating those standards precisely would be useful. why not. [18:23]
mircea_popescu: you could put it in a blog post. [18:24]
mircea_popescu: seeing how you'll have to come up with something EACH DAY, soon enough the broken state of the world becomes a revelry. [18:24]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: how to set upload dir path ? [18:25]
asciilifeform: doesn't seem to exist in the config [18:25]
asciilifeform: i created the default, but all uploads silently fail [18:25]
asciilifeform: (all failures will be silent, considering that i had to destroy the error printer) [18:26]
phf: asciilifeform: wp-admin/options-misc.php [18:26]
asciilifeform: i created the dir [18:26]
asciilifeform: NOTHING happens [18:26]
asciilifeform: it is writable. [18:26]
phf: well, you want to go to wp-admin/media-new.php, try and upload something, see if it lands in the dir? [18:27]
asciilifeform: it does not. [18:27]
mircea_popescu: phf can you upload an item ? [18:27]
phf: yeah, http://107.170.141.103/?p=7 has a media uploaded file [18:28]
phf: it's like none of you read my blog! [18:28]
mircea_popescu: (incidentally, this, at least on my setup, very quick and easy "host this file" basis) [18:28]
mircea_popescu: phf word. [18:28]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it needs structure, iirc it is something like /wp-content/uploads/2016/07/x [18:29]
mircea_popescu: so make that whole path and try again [18:29]
asciilifeform: it is supposed to mkdir'em [18:29]
mircea_popescu: it is yes. [18:29]
phf: fwiw i only created uploads, and it made the structure on its own, after i fixed permissions [18:29]
asciilifeform: what were your perms phf ? [18:29]
mircea_popescu: 777! [18:30]
mircea_popescu: luckiest perms there are. [18:30]
phf: drwxrwxr-x 3 root www-data 4.0K Jul 3 17:59 uploads/ [18:30]
mircea_popescu: close enough lol [18:30]
phf: oh yeah, pretty much [18:30]
asciilifeform: worx, ty [18:30]
mircea_popescu: phf hey, you gotta fix the antispam bit, which prolly has a fixed path in it or something ? currently not letting me comment. [18:31]
phf: kk [18:31]
mircea_popescu: ahhh i know what it is. [18:32]
mircea_popescu: one second ima give you the fix. theme needs some salt for comment form to work. [18:32]
mircea_popescu: phf http://trilema.com/2009/trilema-anti-spam/ << see the part going "si respectiv in comments.php a temei," aka "in the comments.php file in your theme" [18:33]
asciilifeform: soooo turns out none of the current wp themes work with this wp. [18:34]
asciilifeform: only phf's. [18:34]
asciilifeform: blank screen [18:34]
phf: of course, current version is something like 4.8, mp's version is 2.7, 2009 vintage [18:35]
mircea_popescu: aha. [18:35]
asciilifeform: and of course not debuggable [18:35]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is a blessing, of course. you want 2015 theme like you want karachi street whore. [18:36]
asciilifeform: i want the default theme like i want to hand-html. [18:36]
mircea_popescu: next time that guy comes in that was trying to fix qntra, i guess we get him to make you a special wp 2.7 theme to spec ? [18:37]
mircea_popescu: my treat. [18:37]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is quite unclear to me what part of the rewrite rule is necessary for the spamatron [18:37]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform which rewrite rule you mean ? [18:37]
asciilifeform: aha [18:37]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if you want to debug, you can just make a 2nd install. can share db, even, it has this table-prefix scheme baked in. that one you can restrict to yourself and use for hacking upon. [18:38]
asciilifeform: ugh [18:39]
mircea_popescu: phf you'll also need a favicon.ico that's not a T lol [18:39]
phf: and a picture of myself on a camel [18:39]
mircea_popescu: well, at least barking at a camel's feet. [18:40]
mircea_popescu: phf 2008 vintage i'm pretty certain. [18:40]
asciilifeform: my comment thing dun work, aha. [18:41]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform trhe idea is you want either both of the chunks linked or neither. currently you have only the top one (in wp-comments-post.php ) but not hte bottom one (in /wp-content/theme/comments.php ) [18:42]
asciilifeform: i dun get it, do i need the rewrites? and if so, which? what does 'RewriteCond %{HTTP_REFERER} .t-1813 [OR]' ~do~ ? [18:43]
mircea_popescu: uh lemme see wtf is this [18:43]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform where is this ?! [18:44]
asciilifeform: http://trilema.com/2009/trilema-anti-spam/#selection-57.1-57.41 [18:44]
mircea_popescu: ah, can safely ignore that part. [18:45]
asciilifeform: well i get a blank page when commenting. [18:45]
asciilifeform: and 0 comments. [18:45]
asciilifeform: literally a 0 byte page. [18:45]
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2009/trilema-anti-spam/#selection-81.0-109.41 < section of interest. [18:46]
asciilifeform: i don't even HAVE a comments.php [18:47]
mircea_popescu: it's in ~your theme~. do you have one ? no ? WELL THEN! [18:48]
asciilifeform: ah that [18:48]
phf: asciilifeform: wp-content/themes/default/comments.php [18:48]
asciilifeform: holy shit, i have to manually massage every theme?! [18:48]
asciilifeform: to make commenting even WORK [18:48]
mircea_popescu: you could alternatively take the thing out of wp-comments-post.php all it does is it prevents serious spam operations from working [18:49]
asciilifeform: and live with spam ? [18:49]
mircea_popescu: way these work is, they collect form data once with spider, come back and spam it for years afterwards. [18:49]
mircea_popescu: it won't likely degrade the scheme enough for you to notice. [18:49]
mircea_popescu: ie, this specific bit is a load control measure more than actually spam-killing per se. [18:50]
asciilifeform: so what should be taken out then ? [18:50]
asciilifeform: $suffix .......... null ? [18:50]
mircea_popescu: $suffix = substr(md5(date('Y-m-d')."salt.no,rly.salt."),0,6) to become $suffix = "" [18:50]
asciilifeform: i still get a 0 byte page when commenting. [18:51]
mircea_popescu: of course. as you've no theme. neh ? [18:51]
asciilifeform: i HAVE a theme [18:52]
asciilifeform: the default. [18:52]
asciilifeform: that i got from phf. [18:52]
mircea_popescu: ah. [18:52]
asciilifeform: well, one of his 2 [18:52]
asciilifeform: http://www.asciilifeform.com [18:52]
asciilifeform: (dns existed for eons, and there was an old and bitrotten thing there which is no moar) [18:52]
mircea_popescu: well, when this engages what it does is, "Looks like you tried to comment off a stale page. Reload the article, count to three and try again." [18:53]
asciilifeform: i get 0 anything [18:53]
asciilifeform: just empty. [18:53]
asciilifeform: no messages. [18:53]
phf: mircea_popescu: i think the anti-spam instructions are missing bit for comment_post_time [18:54]
mircea_popescu: tsk, i think you're right phf! [18:55]
mircea_popescu: get the two hashes to line up, ima make a comment on article with update. it has been 7 years huh. [18:55]
mircea_popescu: <input type="hidden" name="comment_post_time" value="<?php echo time(),"-",$_SERVER['REMOTE_ADDR'] ?>" /></p> [18:57]
asciilifeform: ?? [18:58]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform he crafitily discovered there's a missing bit. [18:58]
phf: ok comments work [18:58]
mircea_popescu: so they do! [18:59]
mircea_popescu: http://107.170.141.103/?p=7&cpage=1#comment-3 :D [18:59]
mircea_popescu: phf also paginated comments are fucking stupid, take that shit out [19:00]
asciilifeform: anybody gonna say where this piece goes ? [19:00]
phf: one sec [19:01]
shinohai: responsive [19:01]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in the theme, same file, comments.php. part of the comment form, grep for "comment_post_ID" and put it under [19:04]
asciilifeform: so i can't actually use virginal themes ?? [19:04]
mircea_popescu: it's flood killer / antibot measure, otherwise you can actually get destroyed by botnet relaying the same comment over and over 100times/s. [19:05]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not exactly, no. gotta fit them in trilema socket. [19:05]
asciilifeform: i found the barfatron: [19:07]
asciilifeform: wp-comments-post.php: ln 54 [19:07]
mircea_popescu: re "paginated comments" : http://trilema.com/2011/concurs-de-injurat-blogari-editia-a-ii-a/ ~700, loads just fine. [19:07]
mircea_popescu: i wanna see the blog that gets more. [19:07]
asciilifeform: SELECT comment_ID FROM tril_comments ..... [19:07]
asciilifeform: what to do with that thing [19:07]
phf: mircea_popescu: i think that's just some default setting [19:07]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform heh. should be SELECT comment_ID FROM $wpdb->comments [19:08]
mircea_popescu: oh no, i mean. should be : [19:11]
mircea_popescu: $myrows = $wpdb->get_var('SELECT comment_ID FROM '.$wpdb->prefix.'comments WHERE comment_author_IP = "'.$_SERVER["REMOTE_ADDR"].'" and comment_approved = "spam"') [19:11]
asciilifeform: is the thing ~supposed~ to send all comments to the mod queue ? [19:12]
asciilifeform: because mine does. [19:12]
asciilifeform: or hm, odd: [19:13]
asciilifeform: main page shows 0 comments [19:13]
asciilifeform: admin panel offers comment for moderation [19:13]
asciilifeform: but clicking on post reveals already approved comment [19:14]
asciilifeform: whole thing is broken [19:14]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform at first, yeah. [19:14]
mircea_popescu: wait, what ? [19:15]
asciilifeform: what i said [19:15]
asciilifeform: thing behaves inconsistently. [19:15]
mircea_popescu: i still can't send you a comment fwiw. [19:15]
asciilifeform: you cna [19:15]
asciilifeform: can [19:15]
asciilifeform: but it only displays if you click on the post [19:16]
mircea_popescu: ah look, it autapproved. [19:16]
mircea_popescu: now let's try some spam.\ [19:16]
asciilifeform: it doesn't actually work consistently [19:16]
asciilifeform: the admin panel offers me to mod comments [19:16]
asciilifeform: the overview root page shows 0 comments [19:17]
asciilifeform: clicking on post shows all attempted comments. [19:17]
asciilifeform: this thing is b0rk3d. [19:17]
mircea_popescu: nope, spam comment didn't make it through. [19:17]
mircea_popescu: dja see it ? [19:17]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: nope. [19:18]
mircea_popescu: cool then. [19:18]
asciilifeform: or huh i see it in spam queue. [19:18]
asciilifeform: where it belongs. [19:18]
mircea_popescu: should be in comments if you click on "Spam" aha. [19:18]
mircea_popescu: so there. [19:18]
phf: asciilifeform: i also made a patch, but sounds like you don't need it anymore http://107.170.141.103/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/wp-comments.diff [19:19]
mircea_popescu: nice job phf! [19:19]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: all comments other than spam show up in 'pending' in mine. [19:20]
asciilifeform: and show as summing to 0 in root page. [19:20]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there may be some issues with theme display for logged in admin. [19:20]
asciilifeform: nononon [19:20]
asciilifeform: NOT LOGGED IN [19:20]
mircea_popescu: then hm. i only see my test comment myslef [19:20]
asciilifeform: http://www.asciilifeform.com shows 0 comments. [19:21]
mircea_popescu: and also do me a favour and delete my spam comment now it doesn't let me comment anymoar :) [19:21]
asciilifeform: but if you click, they appear. [19:21]
asciilifeform: i'ma delete whole thhing prolly [19:21]
asciilifeform: it is ~useless [19:21]
mircea_popescu: click where ? [19:21]
asciilifeform: on the oly post [19:21]
asciilifeform: *only [19:21]
mircea_popescu: https://archive.is/2lD84 << they do not ? [19:22]
asciilifeform: dafuq [19:22]
mircea_popescu: i dunno man, your blog :D [19:22]
mircea_popescu: WORX ON MY SYSTEMZ [19:22]
asciilifeform: http://www.asciilifeform.com/?p=1&cpage=1#comment-3 << ? [19:22]
asciilifeform: what do you get [19:22]
mircea_popescu: my test comment. [19:23]
mircea_popescu: no other comments on page. [19:23]
asciilifeform: notice it even prints 'no comments' [19:23]
shinohai: later tell BingoBoingo Bundy ranch for sale http://listings.listhub.net/pages/MREANV/1116509 [19:23]
gribble: The operation succeeded. [19:23]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i dunno seems to me like a theme issue. this isn't phf's theme, actually, is it ? [19:24]
asciilifeform: it is one of the 2 themes in his tarball [19:25]
mircea_popescu: well, it is evidently the broken one. [19:25]
asciilifeform: whole thing apparetly needs 1,001 hand-coded exceptions from sop in order to work. [19:26]
asciilifeform: none of which i am equipped to actually understand. [19:26]
mircea_popescu: shut up gentoo boy! unlike that pos, this actually works for a decade once settled down. and the settling down is a few hours not a few weeks. [19:27]
mircea_popescu: arguably more useful, also. [19:27]
asciilifeform: my other thing also works [19:27]
asciilifeform: and similarly [19:27]
asciilifeform: and is precisely what i was trying to avoid [19:27]
asciilifeform: when making 2nd www. [19:27]
asciilifeform: if i wanted massive 7yo pile of hand-tuned shit, i would just copy old site [19:28]
mircea_popescu: yeah vhell! gl avoiding computing in this life. [19:28]
mircea_popescu: maybe our children. if we had any. [19:28]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: how does the comments ending in displayed AND at the same time in 'pending' have anything to do with my theme ? [19:32]
mircea_popescu: there's no "displayed" though. there's All | Pending (4) | Approved | Spam (15,875) [19:33]
asciilifeform: hm they only display from the ip of the poster dont they. [19:34]
asciilifeform: so that answers my q [19:35]
asciilifeform: all comments seem to get queued [19:35]
asciilifeform: why ? [19:35]
mircea_popescu: well no, the spam one didn't get queued. [19:36]
mircea_popescu: but yes, dubious comments get queued, so you can approve them or not. once you approve some, the dubiousness evaluator gets better. [19:36]
mircea_popescu: you rarely have to approve the same person twice. [19:37]
mircea_popescu: gotta appreciate, you just made this, so everyone's yet a stranger. [19:37]
mircea_popescu: anyway, fi on trilema just now, i had to approve that Anonimescus fellow first comment as he never was seen before. his subsequent ones, i didn't need to touch. [19:39]
mircea_popescu: you can prolly fiddle with the knobs to make this work more to your liking, but in my experience it's ~perfect. [19:40]
phf: mircea_popescu: what's the point of wp-includes/js/.htaccess? [19:41]
asciilifeform: this thing is catastrophically broken [19:42]
asciilifeform: the spam counter shows '1' [19:42]
asciilifeform: but it isn't clickable [19:42]
asciilifeform: and i cannot zero it [19:42]
mircea_popescu: phf prolly to limit access to javascript ? [19:46]
mircea_popescu: seems more like a passive "bury this shit" measure than anything else. who's to trust js. [19:47]
mircea_popescu: anyway, ill be off to partay, tty darlings laters. [19:47]
asciilifeform: this shit dun work. [19:47]
asciilifeform: phf: does yours also show a non-zeroable spam counter ? [19:50]
phf: let me try it out [19:50]
phf: i'm fixing some warnings [19:50]
phf: i'm hacking on PHP with VIM, i feel so deliciously white trash [19:51]
phf: asciilifeform: you mind commenting on http://107.170.141.103/2016/wp-content-for-a/ for me to try it out [19:55]
asciilifeform: posted [19:56]
asciilifeform: 'awaiting mod' [19:56]
phf: ok i see it [19:56]
phf: i marked it as spam [19:57]
phf: it is now in spam [19:57]
asciilifeform: now reload panel [19:57]
asciilifeform: and see if spam is clickable [19:57]
asciilifeform: mine isn't. [19:57]
asciilifeform: i have an eternal spam. [19:57]
phf: like spam link? [19:57]
phf: Spam (1) thing in that top bar? [19:57]
asciilifeform: aha that one [19:57]
asciilifeform: not clickable in my panel. [19:57]
asciilifeform: even though it is a 1. [19:57]
phf: it's clickable [19:57]
asciilifeform: oh huh [19:58]
asciilifeform: the 1 is clickable [19:58]
asciilifeform: the 'spam' is not [19:58]
asciilifeform: unlike in my actual blog [19:58]
asciilifeform: motherfuckers. [19:58]
phf: that is ~odd~ [19:58]
phf: in fact i could send it to spam, and then approve and it appears where it's supposed to be [19:59]
asciilifeform: well at least thing is ~usable now. [19:59]
asciilifeform: with pig-ugly theme. [19:59]
asciilifeform: lel the domain suddenly stopped resolving. [20:10]
asciilifeform: phf: are you able to load ? [20:11]
phf: yes [20:11]
phf: can still see front page [20:11]
asciilifeform: hm [20:11]
asciilifeform: worx [20:11]
asciilifeform: now [20:11]
phf: mircea_popescu: it seems like you have some totally custom avatar logic on trilema? do you have patches for that? [21:37]
mircea_popescu: phf there's two main points of the split between mp-wp and automattic-wp. one is that i shot the akismet idiocy in the head (mp-wp antispam system works way the fuck better, and doesn't you know, run arbitrary code from the automattic equivalent of disqus, shambling abominable horror of untold proportions). [22:07]
mircea_popescu: the other is that instead of calling gravatar, it just puts out avatar.png from commenter's webpage. [22:08]
mircea_popescu: because gravatar thing is utter bullshit also. but i'm not terribly convinced this scheme's so great either. [22:08]
asciilifeform: fwiw my old site uses the ancient evils. [22:08]
asciilifeform: mostly works. [22:08]
mircea_popescu: yawell. [22:08]
phf: so it's <?php echo $comment_author_url ?>/avatar.png or you go to top level domain? [22:09]
mircea_popescu: lemme look. [22:09]
mircea_popescu: phf o it parses the whole thing check this crazy out [22:10]
mircea_popescu: $url_parsed = parse_url($comment->comment_author_url) [22:11]
mircea_popescu: $url = "http://".$url_parsed["host"].$url_parsed["path"] [22:11]
mircea_popescu: if ($comment->user_id==1) echo "<img alt='",$comment->comment_author,"`s avatar' src='http://trilema.com/avatar.png' class='avatar avatar-32 photo' height='32' width='32' />" else if ($url_parsed["host"].$url_parsed["path"] > "") echo "<img alt='",$comment->comment_author,"`s avatar' src='",str_replace("//avatar.png","/avatar.png",$url."/avatar.png' class='avatar avatar-32 photo' height='32' width='32' />") else echo "<im [22:11]
mircea_popescu: g alt='",$comment->comment_author,"`s avatar' src='",$comment->comment_author_url,"http://trilema.com/default_avatar.png' class='avatar avatar-32 photo' height='32' width='32' />" [22:11]
mircea_popescu: at the rate we're going, #trilema is going to end up in google for php queries huh. [22:11]
deedbot: [Qntra] Public Transit Bugged For Audio In US - http://qntra.net/2016/07/public-transit-bugged-for-audio-in-us/ [22:12]
phf: we're going to start getting random people with nonexistent english comprehension going "kind sir or madam please help wordpress plugin" [22:12]
asciilifeform: http://qntra.net/2016/07/public-transit-bugged-for-audio-in-us/#comment-63010 [22:14]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-03#1496637 << exactly the sort of theme "cleverness" [22:17]
a111: Logged on 2016-07-03 23:58 asciilifeform: the 1 is clickable [22:17]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-04#1496656 << your old site also has captcha for comments which has prevented me from commenting there for these many years. [22:18]
a111: Logged on 2016-07-04 02:08 asciilifeform: fwiw my old site uses the ancient evils. [22:18]
phf: mircea_popescu: which file was the above lifted from? [22:18]
mircea_popescu: i have nfi how you imagine making a monkey out of the reader's acceptable or anything. [22:18]
mircea_popescu: phf same comments.php in my theme but in general wherever the theme outputs comments [22:19]
ben_vulpes: excellent scrollback [22:20]
ben_vulpes: toppest of kek [22:20]
mircea_popescu: lol [22:20]
phf: today on trilema we're regressing! [22:20]
ben_vulpes: 'mircea_popescu and friends wordpressinate with mixed results' [22:20]
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes "what started as a channel dedicated to lisp and assorted snobbery totally devolved into apache and php club" [22:21]
ben_vulpes: #trilema goes slummin [22:23]
BingoBoingo: http://qntra.net/2016/07/public-transit-bugged-for-audio-in-us/#comment-63011 [22:24]
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: have you considered an org mode -> html export? [22:24]
mircea_popescu: and in other boobs, http://66.media.tumblr.com/f6ffd92ab7b75d2e2b325e7482edc21d/tumblr_nrx0wpcYNT1txs21yo3_500.gif [22:27]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform o btw, got a gpgram for me ? [22:42]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aaaalmost. tomorrow when i wake. [23:19]
deedbot: [Qntra] Latest Fork Noise Arrives On Schedule - http://qntra.net/2016/07/latest-fork-noise-arrives-on-schedule/ [23:19]
BingoBoingo: ^ USG loves their 1980's branding tricks [23:20]
asciilifeform: blew most of today on these atrocities. [23:20]
mircea_popescu: works! [23:20]
mircea_popescu: lol nice bb [23:20]
oglafbot: http://oglaf.com/nearly/ [23:21]
BingoBoingo: ty [23:21]
mircea_popescu: too much failed in one paragraph tho. "their beloved if irrelevant" ? [23:22]
BingoBoingo: aha [23:23]
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i got a thing from the realtor with bigger, thicker house, in what looks like perfect condition, for ~half the price of the ruin. picture in what kind of kandahar it must be [23:25]
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: fxd to "stillborn" [23:25]
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Very cool! [23:25]
shinohai: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-04#1496689 <<< I liek BingoBoingo [23:30]
a111: Logged on 2016-07-04 03:19 deedbot: [Qntra] Latest Fork Noise Arrives On Schedule - http://qntra.net/2016/07/latest-fork-noise-arrives-on-schedule/ [23:30]
BingoBoingo: ty [23:31]
BingoBoingo: 100% upvoted! https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4r5ax7/another_attempt_to_socially_engineer_a_fork/ [23:41]
mircea_popescu: scam [23:47]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-04#1496670 << theme doesn't work in control panel [23:49]
a111: Logged on 2016-07-04 02:17 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-03#1496637 << exactly the sort of theme "cleverness" [23:49]
mircea_popescu: hm [23:49]
mircea_popescu: it must because my whole spam thing is clickable. [23:50]
asciilifeform: my 2.8.6 was also. [23:51]
asciilifeform: but the version mircea_popescu posted only has the digit clickable. [23:51]
asciilifeform: i have nfi. [23:51]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-04#1496672 << it suxx mightily [23:51]
a111: Logged on 2016-07-04 02:18 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-04#1496656 << your old site also has captcha for comments which has prevented me from commenting there for these many years. [23:51]
asciilifeform: but so does the whole shebang. [23:51]
asciilifeform: wordpress is loathesome. [23:51]
mircea_popescu: trilema is quite pleasant, on all scores. [23:52]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-04#1496685 << no. because it is 1 step away from hand-churned html. [23:52]
a111: Logged on 2016-07-04 02:24 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: have you considered an org mode -> html export? [23:52]
asciilifeform: it is not physically impossible to make decent thing where one can post via www browser. [23:52]
asciilifeform: but no one has done it. [23:52]
mircea_popescu: trilema! omaygerd. [23:54]
mircea_popescu: you're such a hater you know. [23:54]
asciilifeform: wc -l wp-mp/** [23:56]
asciilifeform: ... [23:56]
asciilifeform: 7028 total [23:56]
asciilifeform: that's... [23:57]
asciilifeform: 1/7th of a 'Doom' [23:57]
mircea_popescu: nobody spetn as much time playing doom as it'd take to read trilema. [23:57]
* asciilifeform might have. [23:57]
mircea_popescu: no way you read that whole thing ?! [23:59]
asciilifeform: definitely not all the ro, yet. [23:59]
asciilifeform: pretty sure i got all the engl [23:59]
mircea_popescu: i was thinking [23:59]
mircea_popescu: well yeah but the ro is 5 years and the engl 2. [23:59]
Category: Logs
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  1. 1
    The balls of schmaltz and the end. on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. (via Pingback)
    Tuesday, 11 August 2020

    [...] old Jew, sick and tired of the pointless intricacy of the alternative, traditional methods and even sicker [...]

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