Forum logs for 02 Nov 2016

Monday, 16 March, Year 12 d.Tr. | Author:
BingoBoingo: !~tslb [01:06]
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Time since last block: 49 minutes and 39 seconds [01:06]
mircea_popescu: << one important point is that the checking of common fs (ext2, ext4, w/e) wrt to feasibility of the symlink scheme proposed couold be started right now. [06:34]
a111: Logged on 2016-11-02 01:55 mod6: ok, well, at least i've got some breadcrumbs back to that great convo lastnight. [06:34]
mircea_popescu: prolly the linchpin of the entire thing, if we can actually use off the shelf fs we can almost even proceed. [06:34]
mircea_popescu: << still has to be separate from that because of the risks involved in fucking up the wallet. nobody cares you leak your tx index say, that's public. [06:37]
a111: Logged on 2016-11-02 03:16 ben_vulpes: << merely that wallet might reasonably be muntzed out of bitcoind proper into block-muncher-and-tx-indexer. topologically very similar to "reindex" and friends, but could eschew "wallet" idiocies involving change addresses and sensible address reuse. [06:37]
mircea_popescu: also, what do you mean "whom" ? address ? you'll have duplicate indexes. [06:38]
deedbot: << Trilema - Qntra (S.QNTR) October 2016 Statement [07:30]
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo the Alert system having long been long purged << extra words!!! [07:32]
mircea_popescu: jurov shares added. [07:32]
shinohai: Buena dias mircea_popescu o/ [07:33]
mircea_popescu: hola! [07:33]
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: ty snipped [08:24]
BingoBoingo: In other news Qntra has been sitting at 2100 comments for some time now. There's a Qntest going on, so pls to correct. [08:55]
BingoBoingo: brb [08:55]
mircea_popescu: and in other loving homes & gardens, [09:01]
asciilifeform: in other lulz, , 'As she coughs, staggers, convulses, lies, pilfers, sells favors and lapses into intermittent confusion, she still has the courage to tell America that she loathes half of it. That´s candor.' [09:18]
asciilifeform: and lol, apparently guest piece by... fred reed [09:21]
mircea_popescu: i dunno why they find it remarkable, it's the end game for middle class womanhood since well before the french revolution. [09:22]
* asciilifeform had nfi he were still around. was a favourite of uncle al. [09:22]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform weirdly enough, the uk press moved to a "trump will win" stance, from sky to telegraph etc. [09:23]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: american, also, they traditionally do this in the last days leading up to election to help nail a designated loser with 'turnout encouragement' [09:24]
mircea_popescu: << even the most rabid socialists. the tinge of schadenfreude, delicious as it may be, is still the only distinguishing decoration between "tory" and labour. [09:24]
asciilifeform: why the british are involved, i have nfi. [09:25]
asciilifeform: (possibly because they haven't own brains, are simply an anal wart on usa now.) [09:25]
phf: << i got prototype for that. there's only one method called from entire wallet codebase that injects the prepped up transaction into the general pool. i replaced it (or rather, right now it's augmented) with a shiva foreign call that takes a list of bytes, deserailizes it into transaction, and does the injection [09:25]
a111: Logged on 2016-11-02 03:16 ben_vulpes: << merely that wallet might reasonably be muntzed out of bitcoind proper into block-muncher-and-tx-indexer. topologically very similar to "reindex" and friends, but could eschew "wallet" idiocies involving change addresses and sensible address reuse. [09:25]
asciilifeform: phf: consider posting this [09:26]
mircea_popescu: yeh [09:26]
phf: yeah, it needs some more work. i think that wallet needs to be augmented do operations via shiva, but then instead of injecting it should do a call out into shiva of a byte list of transaction. once i get there, i'll do a post [09:27]
mircea_popescu: alternatively, wallet could run as entirely separate process, and relay its txn by connecting to a node as if it were a node. except it asks for no txn. [09:32]
phf: afaik wallet relies on some knowledge of blockchain, so airgapped solution will be a combination of blockchain eater and an augmented wallet. so you have two parallel nodes red and black. black sits on the wire and receives transaction, spitting blocks. you batch carry blocks to red, red eats them, you do your wallet operations, pick up serialized byte lists, carry them back to black, inject. etc [09:32]
mircea_popescu: phf in principle wallet has all the knowledge of blockchain it cares about. [09:32]
phf: in principle yes [09:33]
mircea_popescu: i'm not altogether sure such a drastic separation can be implemented - but it seems theoretically possible [09:33]
mircea_popescu: maybe worth pursuing. [09:33]
asciilifeform: it really depends on what you expect out of 'wallet' [09:33]
mircea_popescu: IF the wallet is correctly implemented (as discussed, text files etc), then fixing any problem is trivial for the operator. [09:33]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform EXACT same as the derps doing nuke security explained they expect in yest linked article. "that the authorised people can launch easily and no one else can period." [09:34]
phf: but i think asciilifeform also had an imperative of keeping trb canonical sourth of all btc knowledge, so that wallet stays in (so that you can read and know what wallet even is), but you solve the separation by starting the daemon with different flags indicating intended usecase [09:34]
mircea_popescu: bitcoin wallet is very literally superset of nuclear briefcase. [09:34]
asciilifeform: that goes without saying. but does it really need to also be a miniature node ? or can wallet simply do the one essential thing, sign payloads with privkeys [09:34]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and not relay them at all ? [09:34]
mircea_popescu: phf yes but it seems it was at least tacitly agreed a package of tools is acceptable rather than monolith. [09:35]
asciilifeform: spits out signed string, which you then drop in the hopper of an operating node. [09:35]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform also acceptable. but in neither these designs does wallet have access to blockchain. [09:35]
mircea_popescu: it's just somehow assumed it does but there's no reason for it to. [09:35]
asciilifeform: in the picture phf drew, it does [09:35]
mircea_popescu: well yes, hence this discussion. [09:36]
asciilifeform: imho private keys don't belong anywhere near a node. [09:36]
mircea_popescu: im of the same sentiment. [09:36]
mircea_popescu: they do not belong on an internet-connected machine, to be clear. [09:36]
mircea_popescu: MAYBE something like "only open port is X and only process connects to it is Y and ALL Y does is push data out so and so" may work. [09:37]
mircea_popescu: but that's as far as that goes. [09:37]
asciilifeform: given nic dma and other wonders, i would not even sign under this. [09:37]
phf: well you have a concept of an airgapped node already. it's the one where you rely on a whole different networked node to build a blockchain for you, and inject blocks into your airgapped node for you. there's hell of attack vector here though [09:37]
asciilifeform: serial diode - yes. [09:37]
mircea_popescu: phf myeah. [09:37]
asciilifeform: phf: it isn't clear that the signing box needs to see raw blocks. [09:38]
mircea_popescu: ^ [09:38]
asciilifeform: it only needs to see the payloads for signing. [09:38]
mircea_popescu: or any blocks in general. only you can spend, therefore only your updates are interesting to it. [09:38]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i don't think the wallet should do only signing. it should also do coinbase selection. [09:38]
asciilifeform: this is where it gets painful [09:39]
phf: that seems tricky, as far as my work is concerned, definitely version 3 [09:39]
mircea_popescu: myeah. [09:39]
asciilifeform: because there exists this animal, that isn't even properly part of bitcoin, called the unmined tx [09:39]
mircea_popescu: BUT! coinbase selection is the MOST IMPORTANT part of bitcoin privacy [09:39]
mircea_popescu: and unsurprisingly, the one that got 0est of prb effort. [09:39]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform explain ? [09:40]
asciilifeform: well, see the doublespend threads [09:40]
mircea_popescu: you mean the malleation stuff ? [09:40]
asciilifeform: trb wallet is every bit as broken as prb wallet in this respect [09:40]
asciilifeform: for instance. [09:40]
mircea_popescu: that finally got irretrievably broken as i reported here a while back. [09:41]
mircea_popescu: now high-s are doublespent automatically by transactions that oficially "do not exist", [09:41]
mircea_popescu: notwithstanding that they are reported as doublespends. [09:41]
mircea_popescu: pretty eggregious nonsense, vaguely surprised nobody gave a shit about it then, but w/e. [09:41]
mircea_popescu: unless there's 17 btc to dream about and blood in the water from decapitated project nobody actually gives a shit about the network. [09:41]
asciilifeform: i still don't fully grasp ~why~ the malleatron fires ONLY when the maker of original tx tries to doublespend own coin by making new one [09:44]
mircea_popescu: this is not how it works ? [09:44]
asciilifeform: this happened to me, while using bbet to lose 5btc on go players. [09:44]
asciilifeform: and on one other uninteresting occasion prior [09:44]
mircea_popescu: that i think is unrelated. i was talkign about stuff. [09:46]
asciilifeform: the entire notion of 'marked as doublespend' is odd [09:48]
mircea_popescu: (originally reported back in sept, ) [09:48]
a111: Logged on 2016-09-11 16:28 asciilifeform: << fwiw, as far as i can tell, my boxes never saw these. [09:48]
mircea_popescu: it's a kludge. [09:49]
asciilifeform: it's a nonsense. miners can induce pretty much anyone to 'doublespend' by failing, for long enough, to mine a tx [09:49]
mircea_popescu: anyway, the point being, the miner cartel brink-of-war event didn't proceed, but "equipment" derived from it is now widely deployed, and as you can observe it can selectively disappear txn from the mempool. [09:50]
asciilifeform: there is nothing intrinsically illegitimate about a 'doublespend'. [09:50]
mircea_popescu: notwithstanding that those txn are valid in all respects. [09:50]
asciilifeform: as i understand, it works by making mircea_popescu 'taint' (yes) his coins with 'doublespendiness' [09:51]
mircea_popescu: i don't follow. [09:51]
asciilifeform: and then the tx using these inputs get dropped by derps. [09:51]
mircea_popescu: ah. yeah, possibly. [09:51]
mircea_popescu: this is quite likely how it works, though the taint is currently attached to the txn itself rather than the inputs. while supplies last, anyway. [09:52]
asciilifeform: and pretty much everyone who has attempted to fire a tx using trb prior to mod6's 'S' patch, now has a supply of such 'evil' coin with which to test this hypothesis, if he wants. [09:52]
mircea_popescu: aha. [09:52]
mircea_popescu: because you simply can't get the taint out of the stupid head. it's born with it, will die with it. [09:53]
mircea_popescu: "gotta have taint! its how the world works!" [09:53]
asciilifeform: the tale of procrustes had a point [09:53]
mircea_popescu: and in other news, flying sluts [09:53]
asciilifeform: stupid folk cannot resist the urge to actually try an' cut the world to fit in stupid head. [09:53]
mircea_popescu: thopugh i suspect the words urge and resist are misemployed. [09:54]
asciilifeform: 'the selectively disappear tx' is not afaik really it, this weapon cannot be aimed. [09:56]
mircea_popescu: anyway. the case that the current set of derps doing the mining will be allowed to continue remains dubious. [09:56]
asciilifeform: (or rather, it ~can~ be aimed, but very cumbersome, like 'bertha' cannon, they gotta not-mine your tx first, make you double up) [09:56]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform works about as well as everything else usg. [09:56]
asciilifeform: hard to see what could replace 'current set of derps' other than a quite identical set [09:57]
asciilifeform: mining is -ev. [09:57]
mircea_popescu: fucking your girlfriend is also -ev. [09:58]
asciilifeform: well yes, we had the '-ev rocket' thread not long ago. [09:59]
mircea_popescu: anyway. to not get entirely sidetracked : the exact sense in which wallet should be separated from rest of trb needs a lot more thinking. [09:59]
asciilifeform: there is a small and enumerable, without difficulty, number of possible places to make the cut. [10:00]
mircea_popescu: lets hear [10:00]
asciilifeform: well: [10:01]
asciilifeform: cut resulting in smallest walletron: wallet only stores privkeys and signs strings with'em. [10:01]
asciilifeform: all payload crafting happens elsewhere. [10:01]
mircea_popescu: that's one. [10:01]
* mircea_popescu is contemplating writing an article of these, with pros and cons etc. [10:02]
asciilifeform: next after this, would be phf's variant. wallet also knows how to swallow blocks and craft a tx for itself to sign. [10:02]
mircea_popescu: which block ? you mean any ? [10:02]
asciilifeform: blocks, sequentially, so as to maintain a picture of what is available to spend. [10:02]
mircea_popescu: so this is wallet+node combo. [10:03]
asciilifeform: (hence why i brought up the miner shenanigans, it is not possible, sadly, to operate a wallet entirely 'blind') [10:03]
mircea_popescu: the thing i proposed would fall in between, so this'd be three. [10:03]
mircea_popescu: was there a fourth ? [10:03]
asciilifeform: fourth is what we have now.. [10:04]
mircea_popescu: mkay, i guess ima go write. [10:04]
asciilifeform: also include the possible cut between mempool and 'blockpool' [10:04]
asciilifeform: which imho really ought to be made, those are quite separable concerns. [10:05]
asciilifeform: (this type of cut is a very necessary thing, imho, per 'specificity of diddling', nothing beats the ability to mix&match parts, run queries in parallel on redundant subsystems on heterogeneous iron, etc) [10:06]
mircea_popescu: yes, that's a settled thing and i see no need to drag it into this other discussion and muddy it up. [10:06]
asciilifeform: aite. [10:06]
asciilifeform: tangentially relatedly, did prb ever get around to ordering mempool tx by fee ? [10:26]
asciilifeform: because if not, we have here a ready hammer for flattening current crop of miners [10:27]
asciilifeform: (give the new miners access to profitable, fee-ordered tx pool, the old ones get 0) [10:28]
mircea_popescu: nope. [10:28]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform got loglink towhere we discussed wallet and how it should be a fucking text file ? [10:32]
phf: sexps, sexps everywhere [10:34]
mircea_popescu: phf aha. point being it was to be human readable. [10:35]
mircea_popescu: for some reason i can't find it though i clearly recall ranting on it. [10:35]
mircea_popescu: frustrating. [10:40]
thestringpuller: as of current you have to dump block on TRB in order to manually grep for a tx-hash to use as an Input to construct a raw transaction [10:45]
* asciilifeform tried, failed, to turn up the thread. [10:50]
mircea_popescu: oh it was anarticle! damn! [10:53]
mircea_popescu: [10:53]
asciilifeform: yes! [10:53]
asciilifeform: it. [10:53]
mircea_popescu: that was a horrible 15 minutes though. i was about to break the kbd [10:54]
thestringpuller: i'm i really the only one with that article saved :P [10:59]
thestringpuller: its in T-Bot for christ-sake [10:59]
thestringpuller: phf: you don't have to inject blocks into your signing node. you don't even need a node to sign iirc? just raw transaction. [11:00]
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: see thread. you still gotta craft the tx somewhere. [11:08]
asciilifeform: based on some picture of the blockchain. [11:08]
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: explain how you need blockchain to sign tx? [11:09]
asciilifeform: you don't! [11:09]
thestringpuller: :D [11:09]
asciilifeform: you can sign tx with a z80. [11:09]
asciilifeform: but where do you get the tx to sign. [11:09]
phf: thestringpuller: you need blockchain to ~craft~ tx though [11:09]
phf: you know, inputs [11:10]
thestringpuller: yes. so I dont see why can't craft the tx first then move it physically to signing device [11:10]
phf: you could, but ~i~ don't like that solution because then you're signing blind. [11:10]
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: at least 2 people here already do some variant of this. [11:10]
asciilifeform: but it leaves open the question of where and how to craft the tx. [11:11]
mircea_popescu: < [11:11]
asciilifeform: and as phf points out, it leaves you open to attack where the craftmachine is pwned and gives you a wallet-emptier to happily carry to the bunker and sign.. [11:11]
phf: you could probably have one black two red machines, wire node, tx crafting node, and a signing machine [11:11]
shinohai: ^ [11:11]
mircea_popescu: funny, this is all in there :D [11:11]
* asciilifeform reads [11:12]
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: unless tx you craft is gargantuan, I don't see how you couldn't do a partial audit of the non-signed tx that is spit out. in this context it would be best to check against multiple known TRB nodes the tx hashes are valid [11:17]
mircea_popescu: you could even regexp it. [11:17]
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: how do you propose to 'check against multiple trb nodes' on an airgapped signing box ? [11:18]
thestringpuller: 1) why would you not check raw unsigned tx before even contemplating signing the thing if you suspect comprimisation? [11:20]
mircea_popescu: ... [11:20]
thestringpuller: what pieces are there to check other than the inputs and the usigned outputs? [11:21]
mircea_popescu: check against what. [11:21]
thestringpuller: << against whether or not the output is to "wallet emptying address". you'd know if output pubkey is differ than one you put in? [11:22]
a111: Logged on 2016-11-02 15:11 asciilifeform: and as phf points out, it leaves you open to attack where the craftmachine is pwned and gives you a wallet-emptier to happily carry to the bunker and sign.. [11:22]
thestringpuller: or am I misunderstanding the attack? [11:22]
mircea_popescu: you might be misunderstanding computers. if you sign a tx on the basis of "it's what my node told me to sign", then the node's in charge not you. [11:23]
thestringpuller: i guess i still don't grok [11:24]
mircea_popescu: there's a very fundamental difference between bare life, which evolves in between orders of behaviour relayed by computers ("now it's time to wake up! now click here!") and humanity, which uses computers strictly to answer questions. [11:24]
mircea_popescu: and what you're proposing to do isn't having the computer answer a question but it's having the computer tell you what to do. [11:24]
thestringpuller: if my node is compromised and isn't [11:25]
thestringpuller: woudn't I get two different answers? [11:25]
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: with what would you be speaking to nosuchlabs box ? with wire in teeth ? [11:26]
thestringpuller: from other internet connected box (airgapped machine isn't even in picture yet cuz tx is not ready for signature) [11:27]
asciilifeform: let's take 'pessimal' case, where overflow or whatever is found such that all satoshi-derived nodes 'chain-react' and can be manipulated arbitrarily by the enemy. [11:27]
asciilifeform: i argue that a properly-designed wallet will not leak coins even then. [11:27]
asciilifeform: any coins. [11:28]
deedbot: << Trilema - How to cut the wallet ? [11:28]
mircea_popescu: this is a fundamental requirement yes. [11:28]
thestringpuller: then how would you construct reliable tx to begin without saving a record of all your UTXO's [11:29]
thestringpuller: in this case you can't trust the UTXO set of any node [11:29]
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller go read teh article so that next i look for it you can say you had it saved a minute after i found it eh! [11:30]
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: it's already bookmarked and saved. inb4deedbot [11:30]
mircea_popescu: yes but the idea is to also read them lol. [11:31]
thestringpuller: I have...i'll just write something up based on Ken Sheriff's stuff and then see if I can grok alf-ie [11:32]
asciilifeform: incidentally, a more general observation re 'serial diodes', is that, quite like '' and similar, they are a valuable detector of folks attempting to monkey with history. [11:32]
asciilifeform: if a node behind a diode, and an otherwise-identical one outside of the diode, diverge in any respect whatsoever... [11:32]
mircea_popescu: aha. [11:32]
mircea_popescu: useful item to have. [11:32]
asciilifeform: after slicing apart mempool-node from blockchain-node, building 'dioded node' becomes trivial exercise. [11:33]
asciilifeform: (it dun care via what to 'eatblock', can be rs232) [11:33]
asciilifeform: incidentally you can make this out of CURRENT trb simply by putting it on a box without a nic [11:33]
asciilifeform: and letting it 'eatblock' via shell script. [11:34]
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes [11:34]
asciilifeform: trb absolutely gives no fuck if it cannot find the network. [11:34]
thestringpuller: trb the bsd of bitcoin [11:34]
asciilifeform: (clock will, however, drift) [11:34]
asciilifeform: in other noose, j. mcafee opens a mining pool for usg. (probably in exchange for non-prosecution for pyramidal flimflammery and/or non-extradition to the orc shithole of his past decade) [11:37]
mircea_popescu: oh he's in the us now ? [11:37]
asciilifeform: he's been there for some years [11:37]
asciilifeform: at least 3. [11:38]
mircea_popescu: i'm very vaguely following the whole raft of wanna-be leading ladies & other zsa zsa gabors. i recall some pics with him and a model on a boat about on par with whatever bs comes out of that meathead who sold out to yahoo, then lost money on every single deal hence and imagines this makes him an entrepreneur [11:39]
mircea_popescu: a sort of redneck branson, wtf is his name [11:39]
asciilifeform: his principal value to his new owner is his 'tor cred' or whatever one might call it. [11:39]
asciilifeform: a reputation for '133337 d00d'ness among the types of folx who bite that particular variety of hook. [11:39]
mircea_popescu: lol right. the sort of idiot who imagines tor is a thing, aka 20something potheads. [11:39]
asciilifeform: aha. he is kept around as a tame priest specifically for use on them. [11:40]
asciilifeform: (the entire racket has 0 to do with defense of the crown in the traditional kgb sense, but rather with 'terrorist creation' , a la the proverbial death ray case.) [11:41]
mircea_popescu: ah mark cuban, there we go! [11:41]
asciilifeform: afaik mcafee long ago lost ~all of his money. hence operating in esr mode now. [11:41]
asciilifeform: the money - gone, the expensive tastes - remain. [11:41]
mircea_popescu: like all of them. there's really a long list of these government "entrepreneurs" in all socialisms [11:42]
mircea_popescu: if they spoke russian they'd be called oligarchs, but as it is... [11:42]
mircea_popescu: "let's pretend the word is businessman" [11:42]
asciilifeform: these folks are quite ideal from pov of new owners. [11:42]
Framedragger: << this reminds me! [11:42]
a111: Logged on 2016-11-02 15:39 mircea_popescu: lol right. the sort of idiot who imagines tor is a thing, aka 20something potheads. [11:42]
asciilifeform: like the archetypical dope-addicted whore. [11:42]
Framedragger: << 25 - close enough [11:42]
a111: Logged on 2016-10-21 00:01 mircea_popescu: Framedragger what are you, like 26 ? [11:42]
mircea_popescu: Framedragger lol win. [11:42]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform btw, wanna bet cuban is sitting somewhere thinking trump really proves he could be president in a decade ? [11:42]
mircea_popescu: evidently using the same plastic surgeon kerry-heintz uses, so there is that going for him! [11:43]
trinque: hell he does reality tv iirc [11:43]
trinque: he's on the fast track [11:43]
mircea_popescu: aye! [11:43]
mircea_popescu: the cuban wiki entry is fucking hysterical. lengthy discussion of the shitty jobs the dork did in college. how come none of these go "and then he took rhetorics with elena dragos and was the only one to get a b in any of her classes that decade" [11:46]
shinohai: <<< Garzik and 2 women appointed to Linux Foundation board? It has went full Bitcoin Phoundation [11:47]
mircea_popescu: "during college he had various business ventures, including a bar, disco lessons, and a chain letter." [11:47]
mircea_popescu: fucking endless pile of lulz this guy [11:48]
mircea_popescu: bitnami (cloud), redhat bitcoin agent, advocate. [11:49]
mircea_popescu: sounds about right. [11:49]
asciilifeform: shinohai: it started life as 'full phoundation' [11:49]
asciilifeform: had 0 ever to do with linux. [11:49]
shinohai: well duh [11:49]
asciilifeform: its continued existence is the greatest afaik known shame of torvalds. [11:49]
asciilifeform: he oughta have yanked its trademark use permission immediately. [11:50]
mircea_popescu: who knows what he's doing there. [11:50]
asciilifeform: but, as i gather, decided that it would pointlessly hasten his dekulakization, or some such. [11:50]
mircea_popescu: general in teh field gets to use his assets as he pleases. [11:50]
asciilifeform: general's been in 'strategic' retreat for so long that his arse is wet in pacific ocean. [11:51]
asciilifeform: (incidentally, everybody in kindergarten makes fun of the italian tanks with 4 reverse gears, but for some reason nobody discusses american ejection seat developed for $maxint, but never deployed, in vietnam, with its own built-in little airplane wings, so as to skedaddle out of enemy lines when escaping!) [11:52]
mircea_popescu: lol [11:52]
mircea_popescu: back to the font of lulz, the official story is that clinton is losing because "kgb controls the fbi and there's badly behaved men!" [11:53]
asciilifeform: ( incidentally, does mircea_popescu know what is ? there are hilarious stories connected with it ) [11:54]
mircea_popescu: ejection tester thing ? [11:54]
asciilifeform: it was (they were abolished in late '90s after the chair ~flew~ once) an ejection ~trainer~ [11:55]
asciilifeform: you sit in a mockup cockpit and sergeant lights a firework under your arse [11:55]
asciilifeform: chair jumps up 8 or so metres. [11:55]
mircea_popescu: heh [11:55]
asciilifeform: story goes, that in at least two academies where these existed, they ended up used as first-class auto-abortuators [11:55]
asciilifeform: for gurlz from almost whole country, who came by word of mouth, and carrying bottles of bribe [11:56]
mircea_popescu: hm [11:58]
asciilifeform: << better photo. [11:59]
mircea_popescu: placenta abrupta is a) painful b) an emergency and c) really not the best way to go. [11:59]
mircea_popescu: i rate this "urban legend" [11:59]
asciilifeform: works ok in 1st trimester iirc. [11:59]
asciilifeform: the way it even came out publicly was a case where idiot chick with 3rd trimester jumped on. [12:00]
mircea_popescu: rivanol via foley works even better. safer. longer. etcetera [12:00]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: why 'diy' methods remained popular, and remain today, is own interesting thread [12:00]
mircea_popescu: i dunno why this wouldn't count as dyi. [12:00]
asciilifeform: because needs exotic pharma ? [12:01]
asciilifeform: i suppose if yer an organiker, it is diy. [12:01]
mircea_popescu: it does ? [12:01]
asciilifeform: 'diy' typically refers to things an ordinary cowsie can make by itself from supplies from local shop and/or own kitchen.. [12:02]
mircea_popescu: you can buy it from ~any chem supplier [12:02]
asciilifeform: go an' try, buy anything whatsoever from chem supplier in usa (as cowsie) [12:03]
mircea_popescu: anyway. if they can make meth they can make ethacridine. [12:03]
asciilifeform: perhaps PeterL can comment on the 'folk synthesis'. [12:05]
mircea_popescu: anyway. sigma aldrich sells it for $952.90/100grams, which is indeed laughable. [12:06]
asciilifeform: << l0l! [12:07]
mircea_popescu: iirc you want 0.5% [12:07]
asciilifeform: vacuum distill ? [12:08]
mircea_popescu: no i mean, 0.5% concentrated. 100grams 99% enough to make 4 gallons of the stuff. [12:08]
mircea_popescu: ahhh the libertard butthurt pouring out of the election coverage is so delicious. [12:10]
mircea_popescu: "With Nate Silver putting Trump on a 28.8 per cent chance of victory, it’s almost unbelievable that the race could be so close, given the consequences. A Russian puppet candidate with shady business affairs who hasn’t disclosed his tax returns, Trump has spent his campaign alienating minorities, horrifying women, offending religious and military voters, and having his career of awful business behaviour paraded in public. [12:11]
mircea_popescu: That he has been able to surf these scandals regularly as little more than free media opportunities shows that American democracy is in serious need of rehabilitation." << in my view, this settles an ancient point of contention curtis yarvin never manned up to, re "the cathedral" or generally how pervasive, or "in power" the idiots are. [12:11]
mircea_popescu: together with the bitcoin and the urbit dispute respectively, this puts him 0 for 3. [12:12]
mircea_popescu: can i be excused if i consider the matter forever put to rest, and deem nothing he ever said of any import or conceivable consequence whatsoever ? [12:12]
asciilifeform: where was this [12:13]
mircea_popescu: one "rupery myers" for the telegraph [12:13]
mircea_popescu: anyway, it's directly evident the most rabid of libertards realised clinton ain't got it and are in their grief dealing mode. pronouncements that "the election is rigged" (phrased, of course, as "this was an unedifying year" blabla), assurances that "whoever wins will be a single term president" as if that fixes anything even a pretense that putin will take advantage of trump. specifically. as if a) it isn't in the nature [12:23]
mircea_popescu: of things for the stronger to take advantage of the obese shithead and b) anyone could get more buttraped by putin, or the world generally, than obama already has. [12:23]
PeterL: If I were a woman, I don't think I would trust the purity of something made in somebodies garage to not have dangerous impurities [12:46]
PeterL: but yes, not horribly complicated molecule [12:46]
asciilifeform: PeterL: dope world, of both sexes, seems to care not a whit whether garage or not. [12:47]
asciilifeform: and q is not even whether complicated, but whether feasible from commonplace materials. [12:47]
PeterL: I guess if you are looking for a DIY abortion, impurities would be low on your scale of things to worry about [12:47]
asciilifeform: and using commonplace equipment, a la meth. [12:47]
PeterL: depends on if there is an easy starting material, I'm still reading up on it [12:48]
phf: you ever seen that dmt guide [12:54]
asciilifeform: phf: there is enough deadtree-era 'underground' pseudoscientific literature on 'dope cooking' to fill book case. most of it of dubious quality, approaching 'anarchist's cookbook', rather than what normal people think of as chemistry [12:55]
phf: right [12:55]
asciilifeform: but it is not worthless, school book does not discuss how to refine postindustrial rubbish from shops, utilize junkyard metal for the synthesis pots, etc. [12:55]
asciilifeform: the 'underground' crapola - does. [12:56]
phf: hmm, pretty sure the image is explicitly filtered out by google now :o [12:56]
asciilifeform: for fucks sake, what isn't filtered [12:56]
jurov: qntrola distributed [12:57]
phf: used to be one of the first image hits for "dmt synthesis", a screenshot of a chanboard poast of making dmta "out of household objects" [12:57]
asciilifeform: but this is good time to note that postindustrial junkyard wars chemistry, as every other craft, differs substantially from the 'you can get any starting material you like by drawing it on paper' schoolbook chem. [12:57]
phf: hehe, trying to find it now though i get some really nice results e.g. [12:59]
shinohai: !~google Walter White's blue meth recipe [12:59]
jhvh1: shinohai: A Comprehensive Guide to Cooking Meth on 'Breaking Bad' | VICE ...: <> Breaking Bad Fact vs Fiction: Walter White's Secret Formula: <> Blue Sky | Breaking Bad Wiki | Fandom powered by Wikia: (1 more message) [12:59]
shinohai: Also, ty jurov [13:04]
asciilifeform: PeterL et al : did we ever do the brute-force synthesis thread ? [13:04]
PeterL: perhaps, what are we synthesizing? [13:04]
phf: yes we did [13:04]
asciilifeform: phf: can haz link ? [13:04]
phf: failing to find it so far, i think it's the one where we talked about looking through dirt for useful synths and how nobody is doing it (but when they do they get mad gains) [13:08]
asciilifeform: nono this is different one [13:08]
asciilifeform: let's illustrate : [13:09]
asciilifeform: recall how to make nitric acid from air & water ? [13:09]
asciilifeform: (you could do it simply with what is in your room where you sit right now) [13:09]
phf: no, but i suppose electricity is involved [13:10]
asciilifeform: aha. [13:10]
asciilifeform: same as in thunderstorm. [13:10]
asciilifeform: put an arc through the raw materials, if there is any thermodynamically-plausible path to the end product, you will find some in the tube. [13:10]
asciilifeform: it is not an ~economical~ way to make (almost) anything. [13:11]
asciilifeform: but illustrative. [13:11]
asciilifeform: what if you ~do not care~ how much electric arc you use ? because mains current is cheap and fungible. [13:11]
asciilifeform: sorta like how makers of mining asic, to a certain point, do not care about error rate [13:11]
phf: right [13:12]
PeterL: not a very selective way of doing things though [13:12]
asciilifeform: well the selection would have to happen on the purification end. [13:13]
asciilifeform: where one might conceivably employ another riotously -ev but simple crackpottery, laser separator [13:14]
asciilifeform: think 'ir spectrometer' but with motion. [13:14]
PeterL: blast it and see what you get out kinda thing? [13:14]
phf: wait, i'm missing the punchline. i guess brute force here means, that you don't have an optimal process, but rather exploit given environment to achieve objective no matter what? [13:14]
asciilifeform: phf: correct. [13:14]
PeterL: what would be the purpose of this? [13:14]
asciilifeform: PeterL: very limited applications [13:15]
asciilifeform: largely involving circumventing chemical bans. [13:15]
asciilifeform: (on whatever you need - abortifacent, performance dope, poison, antidote, antibiotic, etc) [13:15]
asciilifeform: (note what is not on the list - it is doubtful that you can make a usable explosive this way. thought! you can make nitric acid, even now, using it. and from that, it is a day's work to dynamite or whatever.) [13:16]
PeterL: it would still be much easier to generate a synthetic pathway from what is available [13:17]
asciilifeform: it is a gedankenexperiment, and likely not justified for almost any current scenario. [13:17]
asciilifeform: but more useful as 'fleet in being' [13:17]
PeterL: have you ever done separations of organics trying to get a very low percentage product into something usable? [13:17]
asciilifeform: PeterL: problem is that your solution is not a Final Solution [13:17]
asciilifeform: in that the 'cat and mouse' game continues, you come up with path, and usg bans formerly commonplace household crud, etc. [13:18]
asciilifeform: a final solution - ends this process. [13:18]
PeterL: until you go all the way back to common starting materials, then it is final solution [13:18]
asciilifeform: permanently. [13:18]
asciilifeform: PeterL: you would be surprised at what commonplace thing can be abolished by great inca. i was astonished, after moving to usa, that you cannot buy potassium permanganate in drug store here. [13:19]
asciilifeform: because oh noez. [13:19]
PeterL: so we need a sort of "frozen" archive of "how to make X, which you need to make Y", sort of like how trb has frozen deps [13:21]
asciilifeform: PeterL: as you well know, the actual body of knowledge that is needed, has never really been written down, because it is at least partly a 'seat of the pants' craft, like flying jets [13:22]
asciilifeform: and afaik nobody has seriously considered attempting to write it. [13:22]
PeterL: yes, I have thought about this [13:22]
PeterL: you end up needing something like wikipedia to hold it all [13:23]
asciilifeform: lolwut [13:23]
asciilifeform: how the fuck do you write down ~hand skills~ [13:23]
PeterL: I mean, not specifically wikipedia, just there are a lot of topics that each connect to one another [13:24]
asciilifeform: and the feedstock problem is not escapable in postindustrial world. e.g., one can make nitric acid from, say, copper sulfate, saltpetre, and water. but where in the forest do i dig up copper sulfate ? [13:24]
PeterL: write down skills with words, how else? arn't we literate people? [13:24]
PeterL: have article in megabook describing geology and identification of minerals [13:25]
asciilifeform: PeterL: would you fly as passenger in a mig that i offer you a ride in after reading 'how to mig' b0000k by, say, mthreat ? [13:25]
PeterL: I assume that postapocalypse world you start by building small plane, learn to fly that, before moving onto mig [13:26]
asciilifeform: point here is that - sadly - not everything is susceptible to the written-word treatment. [13:27]
asciilifeform: PeterL: recall the 'copper caves' thread ? identification of minerals 'in the wild' was useful skill in 1700s. [13:39]
asciilifeform: today - not so much. [13:39]
asciilifeform: minerals live in 1) the shops, while supplies last and 2) in junkyard. [13:40]
PeterL: so have article on identifying minerals in junkyard? [13:41]
asciilifeform: there is some of this. [13:41]
asciilifeform: i once encountered an entire monograph on the drilling, rifling, and tempering of barrels made specifically from old truck axles. [13:42]
asciilifeform: (they, or so it was claimed, are perfect alloy for the purpose) [13:42]
PeterL: I suspect this would depend on the year of the truck? [13:43]
asciilifeform: almost entire 20th c. [13:43]
* PeterL is not metalurgist, does not know how much variation goes into these things [13:44]
asciilifeform: point is not 'top metallurgy', but that the axle beats any kind of iron you can smelt in your cellar. [13:44]
* asciilifeform is of the - admittedly armchair - notion that 'backyard artillerists' oughta focus on rockets, lower pressure, better... 'bang for buck' [13:45]
ben_vulpes: no this is an excellent idea [13:45]
ben_vulpes: as evidenced by the usg-blessed rocketry associations insistent whine that rockets may only go up. [13:46]
asciilifeform: anyone with a drill press, for instance, can make 'gyrojet'-style projectile [13:46]
asciilifeform: where the jets were simply angularly-drilled openings. [13:46]
PeterL: gyrojet is so futuristic weapon, shame it didn't make the cut [13:46]
asciilifeform: PeterL: it compared poorly with ordinary luger. [13:47]
* ben_vulpes rather fond of simple barrages over gyrojet projectiles [13:47]
asciilifeform: but it is a ~perfect 'cellar' weapon [13:47]
asciilifeform: needs 0 advanced metallurgy. [13:47]
asciilifeform: nor rifled barrels. [13:47]
PeterL: should have made round slightly bigger, allow carrying explosive to target [13:47]
asciilifeform: and can be of any calibre you like, with 0 recoil. [13:47]
ben_vulpes: PeterL: what, kinetics not enough? [13:48]
ben_vulpes: trade the explosive for a bit of mass and a bit more propellant. [13:48]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: some applications call for thermite. [13:48]
PeterL: IIRC, they were slightly too big and fell under the "dangerous weapons" regulations anyway, should have gone all the way to mini-rpg [13:48]
asciilifeform: 'may as well hang for a sheep as for a lamb' aha. [13:49]
ben_vulpes: the 'g' of grenade is a shameful waste of mass budget imho. [13:49]
ben_vulpes: er [13:49]
ben_vulpes: 'g' of rpg [13:49]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: in atmosphere, 'v' only gets you so far. [13:49]
asciilifeform: as mega-rocketeer, you oughta know that [13:49]
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: what application for thermite, armor? [13:49]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: antimateriel in general. [13:49]
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: as systems engineer, charges are complex, and 'simple' 'v' that 'doesn't get me that far' gets me pretty far. [13:50]
ben_vulpes: numbers, the rest. [13:50]
PeterL: ben_vulpes wants a 'rpp'? rocket-propelled projectile? [13:51]
asciilifeform: << see thread [13:52]
a111: Logged on 2016-10-17 05:10 mircea_popescu: no, you can't do that, because air friction. [13:52]
asciilifeform: drag goes up nonlinearly with v. [13:52]
asciilifeform: which is why rifle bullets are not the size of grains of rice [13:52]
asciilifeform: (it is possible to make such a thing) [13:53]
thestringpuller: this is exactly why guys in suits show up to your front door if you launch a multistage "model rocket" from your back yard [13:53]
asciilifeform: launch anything visible from nearest airport in usa, and have problems. [13:54]
asciilifeform: Great Inca owns, in case anyone missed the memo, not only land, sea, but air. [13:55]
thestringpuller: luckily you don't have to go through great lengths to bribe local county airport in bumfuck no where [13:55]
thestringpuller: which ironically in th elocale legend a farmer launched a two stage rocket into the sea from here [13:56]
asciilifeform: if you're 'in nowhere' just launch from the woods, neh? [13:56]
ben_vulpes: nobody shows up at any doors, sheesh [13:56]
asciilifeform: incidentally this possibility is a perennial thorn in the side of usg, and they keep coming up with crackpot mega-surveillance schemes against it, most recently the ill-fated $2B balloon [13:57]
asciilifeform: (which was to photograph ~entire east coast of usa) [13:57]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: 'nobody' shows up at any door -- until they do. [13:57]
asciilifeform: a la 'silk road' idiots etc. [13:58]
thestringpuller: well silk road idiots didn't follow the book of jeezy [13:58]
thestringpuller: i.e. "You're the guy who wasn't good enough to sling dope." [13:59]
asciilifeform: and when you helpfully light the way for gasenwagen with gigantic flare above your door.. [13:59]
thestringpuller: just cause you can buy weight from the comfort of your mom's basement does not mean you have capacity to sling said dope on street. [13:59]
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: re: woods << wasn't this the premise of October Sky (the rocket boys?!?) from West VA back in the 50's? [14:01]
asciilifeform: 'Homer Hickam stated that "Universal Studios marketing people got involved and they just had to change the title because, according to their research, women over thirty would never see a movie titled Rocket Boys"...' << l0l!! [14:02]
PeterL: I've never made a multi-stage rocket, but me and my kids made a rocket out of a soda bottle and powered it with isopropanol, that was pretty fun [14:03]
mircea_popescu: << that's silly. penis is already dangerous impurity enough. [15:15]
a111: Logged on 2016-11-02 16:46 PeterL: If I were a woman, I don't think I would trust the purity of something made in somebodies garage to not have dangerous impurities [15:15]
mircea_popescu: (to be clear : 14F catheter is inserted in the lus (lower uterine segment). the baloon is then inflated to ~5ml, and under light traction 100ml of 0.15% solutin in introduced as drip over 10 minutes. no antibiotics needed, abortion occurs within hours.) [15:20]
mircea_popescu: << that was [15:27]
a111: Logged on 2016-11-02 17:08 phf: failing to find it so far, i think it's the one where we talked about looking through dirt for useful synths and how nobody is doing it (but when they do they get mad gains) [15:27]
trinque: asciilifeform: << hey alf, pootie tang heard you. [15:27]
mircea_popescu: << it is, or at least was, the explanation of "how life begun". nevertheless, this method fails amply for organic compounds : fill a tube with a all the organic compounds you can think dilute in the same solvent, run electrictity through it, congrats you have some lightly chlorinated toilet water. [15:29]
a111: Logged on 2016-11-02 17:11 asciilifeform: it is not an ~economical~ way to make (almost) anything. [15:29]
mircea_popescu: << he was born in soviet russia. there isn't a purpose, just, electricity is all he's got besides "the power of the soviets", and while neither can fill a hand before pissing in it would, nevertheless at least electricity DOES SOMETHING. [15:31]
a111: Logged on 2016-11-02 17:14 PeterL: what would be the purpose of this? [15:31]
mircea_popescu: << i wanted to show girls the thing (it's fucking pretty, innit ?) these idiots don't even know what it IS. i mean, pharmacists. they go to medical school here. NO FUCKING IDEA! [15:33]
a111: Logged on 2016-11-02 17:19 asciilifeform: PeterL: you would be surprised at what commonplace thing can be abolished by great inca. i was astonished, after moving to usa, that you cannot buy potassium permanganate in drug store here. [15:33]
mircea_popescu: fucking savagery. and it probably started "for your own good", as these things always go. [15:33]
mircea_popescu: << this is not even half a bad idea. bonus : works natively on v lol. [15:34]
a111: Logged on 2016-11-02 17:21 PeterL: so we need a sort of "frozen" archive of "how to make X, which you need to make Y", sort of like how trb has frozen deps [15:34]
mircea_popescu: << same way you teach white chicks to twerk and black chicks to handjob. [15:35]
a111: Logged on 2016-11-02 17:23 asciilifeform: how the fuck do you write down ~hand skills~ [15:35]
mircea_popescu: << afaik copper sulphate is one of the naturally occuring presentations. it comesa as mix of carbonate, phosphate and some oxides. [15:37]
a111: Logged on 2016-11-02 17:24 asciilifeform: and the feedstock problem is not escapable in postindustrial world. e.g., one can make nitric acid from, say, copper sulfate, saltpetre, and water. but where in the forest do i dig up copper sulfate ? [15:37]
asciilifeform: << did i not put in caveat, 'if there is any thermodynamically-plausible path to the end product' ! [15:38]
a111: Logged on 2016-11-02 19:29 mircea_popescu: << it is, or at least was, the explanation of "how life begun". nevertheless, this method fails amply for organic compounds : fill a tube with a all the organic compounds you can think dilute in the same solvent, run electrictity through it, congrats you have some lightly chlorinated toilet water. [15:38]
mircea_popescu: yes but most organics are not "thermodynamically plausible" to use your terminology, making it misguiding. put caveat "if it's not organic, or interesting (ie explosives)" [15:39]
mircea_popescu: then it's a good caveat. [15:39]
asciilifeform: and naively, it does resemble 'break rsa key with random bit guess'. but you would be surprised at what ends up where an arc has been. [15:39]
asciilifeform: even chiralane. [15:39]
mircea_popescu: sure. [15:39]
mircea_popescu: it's actually diagnosis for spark : looking for weird. [15:39]
mircea_popescu: (in some ind processes, the "was there a spark" is mn dollar question post disaster) [15:40]
asciilifeform: '“We don’t spy on anyone. We don’t work with any government to spy on others and we never would,” Dominic Carr, General Manager of Public Affairs at Microsoft, said.' << gold [15:45]
mircea_popescu: lol. [15:45]
mircea_popescu: remember jerry : it's not lying, if YOU believe it! [15:45]
asciilifeform: << betcha that one could budge the otherwise astronomically-unfavourable equilibria with modulated arc, or something else unavailable to ancestors. [15:47]
a111: Logged on 2016-11-02 19:31 mircea_popescu: << he was born in soviet russia. there isn't a purpose, just, electricity is all he's got besides "the power of the soviets", and while neither can fill a hand before pissing in it would, nevertheless at least electricity DOES SOMETHING. [15:47]
asciilifeform: or not. but is certainly worth a shot. [15:47]
mircea_popescu: maybe. [15:47]
mircea_popescu: if you're gonna do that better off doing resonant cavity em [15:48]
asciilifeform: well yes [15:48]
asciilifeform: a la klystron. [15:48]
asciilifeform: have organic crapolade mechanically separate self by nmr spectra, or something similarly outrageous. [15:48]
mircea_popescu: in ~principle~ all chemistry as practiced now could be changed to phys-chem through the process of, put substance inside magical cavity, shoot the right beams at the right atoms. [15:48]
mircea_popescu: hence your laser suggestion in thread. [15:48]
asciilifeform: btw you can buy 1T+ permanent magnet aggregates now. [15:48]
asciilifeform: (and since '90s) [15:48]
asciilifeform: desktop nmr, sans cryogens. [15:49]
mircea_popescu: but this technology is 50 years away, idiots are too busy making "3d guns" out of the practical equivalent of a large plastic coathanger injector and other stencils. [15:49]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform aha. [15:49]
asciilifeform: with the right hands it is 50 months, or 50 days away. [15:49]
asciilifeform: like ~anything. [15:49]
mircea_popescu: it's gonna be the "surprising nobody could have predicted what will those zany scientist kids think of next" of our old age. [15:49]
mircea_popescu: and we'll be all "oh, good thing you did the rape thing first then mkay. THAT was the emergency" [15:50]
asciilifeform: first we do the rape, then - the ape. [15:50]
asciilifeform: (in the somewhat cryptic words of ilkka k.) [15:50]
asciilifeform: re '3d gun' folk, it boggles my mind that they ignore 'gyrojet' [15:53]
asciilifeform: which theoretically lets you make the entire orchestra, gun, barrel, bullet, from soft aluminum. [15:53]
mircea_popescu: this entire "elective" driver for human activity is the pits. [15:53]
mircea_popescu: they'll only do what they can cluck about. [15:53]
mircea_popescu: human civilisation was built by very intelligent, special, sensitive doods DOING WHAT THEY WERE MOTHERFUCKING TOLD [15:54]
PeterL: at my previous employer there was an equipment showcase, bunch of vendors showing off new stuff, one guy brought a shoebox sized nmr, blew my mind a bit [15:54]
mircea_popescu: not by them polling their inside state at 5kHz [15:54]
asciilifeform: PeterL: didja pop the cover on it? what does one need to make it ? [15:55]
PeterL: didn't get to put my hands inside [15:56]
asciilifeform: PeterL: then what led you to believe that it works ? [15:56]
asciilifeform: and not a 'magic wand'. [15:56]
PeterL: seemed like it was limited in application, would be ok for some sorts of process management or something, completely useless for what I was doing [15:57]
asciilifeform: limited how ? [15:57]
PeterL: If I remember correctly, low resolution [15:58]
PeterL: basically it was like a 100 MHz, I only use 500 and up [15:58]
PeterL: it could work with a flow cell, which would be cool for monitoring a process, but the low resolution would make it very bad for identification work [16:00]
mircea_popescu: you can technically use 7 or so to get 500 [16:17]
mircea_popescu: seeing how even thz timers aren't expensive. [16:17]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you need higher field strength for higher f. [16:19]
asciilifeform: for meaningful signal. [16:19]
mircea_popescu: guess there's also that. [16:19]
asciilifeform: hence the monster machines with liquid he etc. [16:19]
mircea_popescu: yeah. just, you know, the miniaturization itself is important. [16:20]
mircea_popescu: i mean "the miniaturization is important in itself", ie, even if obviously won't work to move large bodies, it's integral to the magical cavity. [16:20]
asciilifeform: the business end of nmr box was never large. [16:21]
asciilifeform: (there is variant where it is man-sized, it is sold as 'mri') [16:21]
mircea_popescu: aha [16:22]
thestringpuller: looking through my research there doesn't seem to be a conclusion to hardware RNG thread [16:24]
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: what kind of conclusion did you have in mind ? [16:24]
mircea_popescu: << yes, actually. guy is a competent (if self-taught) engine engineer. in between him and the various trainers he had, he's the sane mind i've seen. [16:24]
a111: Logged on 2016-11-02 17:25 asciilifeform: PeterL: would you fly as passenger in a mig that i offer you a ride in after reading 'how to mig' b0000k by, say, mthreat ? [16:24]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: trainers don't simply hand 'patient' a book.. [16:25]
mircea_popescu: really ? [16:25]
mircea_popescu: would you want someone working on trb on the basis of having read the book or on the basis of having watched "the videos" ? [16:25]
asciilifeform: really, one studies in 2-seat machine, grunting out exercises [16:26]
asciilifeform: ~while~ reading book also, yes. [16:26]
mircea_popescu: there is a thin sliver of stuff your training is useful for but most accidents, including with planes, including with controlled flight into terrain, come from not having read the book. [16:26]
asciilifeform: this - yes [16:27]
mircea_popescu: note that the place where good training would have helped (concorde crashed into hotel smolensk lulz etc), the training though present didn't do anything, and nobody thought it proper to blame anyone for this. [16:27]
asciilifeform: i was thinking more of the basics that folks learn 'with spinal cord' in training. [16:27]
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: not conclusion, more "direction toward edible turd" vs "eat the mystery meat" re: << [16:27]
a111: Logged on 2014-05-29 17:55 asciilifeform: i really can't fathom the purpose of buying a mystery meat hardware rng. if you're willing to eat mystery meat, why not use the vlsi turd found in current cpu? [16:27]
thestringpuller: i'd rather attempt at raising my own shitty veal rather than continuing to eat mystery meat until end of lie [16:28]
thestringpuller: life* [16:28]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform name one such basic. "don't suck through your nose from reagent bottle" ? [16:28]
hanbot: << incredible collection of idiot euphemisms on that page. "provides vertically integrated production", srsly?! also, attempted to make some preserves of it with, which is broken/dead/? atm, so here's another bitchlog on that ongoing fire.... [16:28]
scriba: Logged on 2016-11-02: [15:46:51] <mircea_popescu> the cuban wiki entry is fucking hysterical. lengthy discussion of the shitty jobs the dork did in college. how come none of these go "and then he took rhetorics with elena dragos and was the only one to get a b in any of her classes that decade" [16:28]
mircea_popescu: hanbot pretty epic isn't he. [16:29]
mircea_popescu: << apparently it worked alright, supposing you hit it ~10 mins ago ? [16:30]
hanbot: well in the same manner as'd be a museum of vinyl siding, sure. [16:30]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: how to properly separate layers, for instance. how to boil without 'bumping'. various things that sound braindamagedly simple but many folks fuck up somehow. [16:30]
mircea_popescu: all of these are temp skills. [16:30]
hanbot: oh hey, i made it but can't load it. huzzah. [16:30]
mircea_popescu: you don't handboil anymore there's magnetic stirrers specifically because of this skill being expensive. etc. [16:31]
asciilifeform: magnetic stirrer does not magic away the hand skill. [16:31]
asciilifeform: this is precisely the kind of notion which gets people into chemical mess. [16:31]
mircea_popescu: the way it works is, two chunks of hardware that have to be interfaced are briefly interfaced by biofilm, until a proper solution is put in place. [16:31]
asciilifeform: just like, incidentally, the notion that cnc magicked away machining skill. [16:31]
asciilifeform: in practice, none of this happened, it only happened in the imagination of folks who only see the results on paper. [16:32]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i suppose i missed all those steam pressure gauges in cars etc. [16:32]
mircea_popescu: that it doesn't happen all the time, or within a short enough interval doesn't change the fact that it's the one mode of industry. [16:32]
mircea_popescu: at some point oil was carried by barrel. then by trainload. then piped. [16:33]
asciilifeform: this is not to say that nothing is ever usefully automated. just that we aren't at the 'wish and it happens!!11' level for, e.g., organiking. [16:33]
mircea_popescu: surely not. yet. [16:33]
asciilifeform: as for airplanes, i recently read, for instance, an entertaining piece, 'stick and rudder', classic, by one w. langewiesche. but if you wanted to fly in an airplane, i would still recommend going with davout at the wheel, or mthreat, rather than asciilifeform . [16:33]
mircea_popescu: if they're there. [16:34]
asciilifeform: because there is such a thing as practical craft. [16:34]
mircea_popescu: when i first got laid i had nobody there to show me how it's done so i made do as best i could. [16:34]
mircea_popescu: woman helped, in fairness. [16:34]
asciilifeform: incidentally, wright airplane steered by bending wings, this is another item that could be reintroduced in small flying machines that keep popping up in threads here, 'because we now have computer', but afaik has not been. [16:35]
mircea_popescu: the problem is material quality. they'd cost ~1mn, which is not what people wanna pay for cessna. they wanna pay 100k, and they do. [16:36]
asciilifeform: it would only be a mega-win in plastic (yes) airplane. [16:36]
asciilifeform: wrights - had no plastic. they had wood, and wood flexes well, but glue does not. [16:37]
mircea_popescu: aha. [16:37]
asciilifeform: plastic 'cessna', 10k. [16:37]
mircea_popescu: "intelligent" plastic (ie, with electric bending cell infrastructure) would be pretty cool [16:37]
asciilifeform: steer hydraulicly, bend wings from inside. [16:37]
mircea_popescu: also just as expensive as discussed. [16:37]
asciilifeform: like a cock. [16:37]
mircea_popescu: o hey, iraqis are in mosul huh! [16:38]
asciilifeform: no intelligent anything. just cavernous hydraulic cock wings. [16:38]
asciilifeform: who was in mosul before ? eskimos ? [16:38]
mircea_popescu: isis. [16:38]
asciilifeform: aah [16:38]
mircea_popescu: since 2014 [16:38]
mircea_popescu: aaand teh turks are getting restless. [16:38]
asciilifeform: changed hands for 1st time since then ?? [16:38]
mircea_popescu: hasn't changed hands yet, but arguably the iraqis are edging into actual city. [16:39]
asciilifeform: << thing is under epic ddos or wat. [16:43]
a111: Logged on 2016-11-02 20:30 mircea_popescu: << apparently it worked alright, supposing you hit it ~10 mins ago ? [16:43]
asciilifeform: i get a 'loading...' spinner, forever. [16:43]
mircea_popescu: must be [16:43]
asciilifeform: i have never even ~seen~ this spinner prior. [16:43]
asciilifeform: (did somebody walk away with the domain..?) [16:43]
mircea_popescu: << i dunno there's any dispute re this, here. or outside. [16:45]
a111: Logged on 2016-11-02 17:45 asciilifeform is of the - admittedly armchair - notion that 'backyard artillerists' oughta focus on rockets, lower pressure, better... 'bang for buck' [16:45]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in usa. [16:45]
asciilifeform: american 'basement artillerists' almost inevitably fixate on small arms 'just like grandfather's' [16:45]
mircea_popescu: im sure zimbabweans from actual zimbabwe do even funnier shit [16:46]
asciilifeform: orcs tend to be practical folk. witness, e.g., palestine, even there - they understand rocket. [16:46]
asciilifeform: and that a handmade rocket is more accurate, makes bigger and cheaper hole, than trying out medieval musketry. [16:46]
mircea_popescu: aha [16:47]
mircea_popescu: not everyone's quite as castrated as "civilised" folk, you could say. [16:47]
mircea_popescu: "and what have you learned in the city, billy bob ?" "oh ma, i have learned how to fail before i even try!" [16:47]
asciilifeform: i'm not even convinced that it is about castration - the 'actiony' types are just as fixated, they would sincerely rather make a crappy aluminum musket that eventually kills himself and whoever stands next, than a perfectly serviceable rocket. [16:48]
mircea_popescu: << people love the hope! hence okcupid. [16:49]
a111: Logged on 2016-11-02 17:56 ben_vulpes: nobody shows up at any doors, sheesh [16:49]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform how is that not castrated ? [16:49]
mircea_popescu: the difference between the placid capon and the overactive to mask impotence capon is not substantial. [16:49]
thestringpuller: people still use okcupid now that tindr exists? [16:49]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: willingness to depart from routine is orthogonal to virility. [16:50]
mircea_popescu: not orthogonal. [16:50]
mircea_popescu: and in other illustrative shapes, [16:57]
mircea_popescu: "i want it to just fit" [16:57]
thestringpuller: grade a badonkadonk [16:58]
shinohai: !~ticker --market all [17:07]
jhvh1: shinohai: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 727.44, vol: 4634.84882059 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 721.9, vol: 4557.80835 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 734.49, vol: 8993.49784423 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 739.0158, vol: 716127.11400000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 731.27, vol: 1419.68811149 | Volume-weighted last average: 738.766576406 [17:08]
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> who was in mosul before ? eskimos ? << Assyrians [18:18]
BingoBoingo: <thestringpuller> people still use okcupid now that tindr exists? << mp doesn't have a guide to beating tindr [18:19]
mircea_popescu: which one is tindr ? the gay app thing ? [18:23]
thestringpuller: my bad it's tinder. grindr is the gay app thing [18:25]
thestringpuller: but grindr is actually used more now for drug dealing iirc [18:25]
BingoBoingo: lol [18:25]
mircea_popescu: historically gayness was mostly used for drug dealing in the first place. [18:26]
ben_vulpes: what historic drugs are we talking about? [18:26]
ben_vulpes: opium? [18:27]
mircea_popescu: anything that gets you high, man [18:27]
mircea_popescu: + muscle relaxants [18:27]
mircea_popescu: + disco hair products. [18:27]
ben_vulpes: i guess the argument kinda falls apart on 'historic' grounds, 'gayness' not being much of a thing pre late 1800s [18:27]
mircea_popescu: of course it was. [18:28]
ben_vulpes: qua "men who only have sex with other men"? [18:28]
mircea_popescu: yes. take say rochester. [18:28]
ben_vulpes: and you'll say that my cursory research finding that he slept with a few ladies to be entirely wrong? [18:30]
mircea_popescu: well, the notion that gayness is incompatible with that IS very much a late 1800s thing. [18:31]
* ben_vulpes points at the fifth line up [18:31]
mircea_popescu: would you say a woman that also fucks plastic isn't heterosexual ? [18:31]
ben_vulpes: no, i'd say that "historic drugs" fits quite nicely into the same time window as "gay = only fucks men" [18:32]
mircea_popescu: especially if you define "drugs" as "what the people who think gay = only fucks men would think drugs are" [18:32]
ben_vulpes: hence my question! [18:32]
mircea_popescu: well i didn't realise you were begging it! [18:33]
mircea_popescu: anyway. drugs pre industrialisation are ~= alcohol. [18:33]
ben_vulpes: yeah. [18:33]
ben_vulpes: and not even the high proof stuff at that. [18:34]
mircea_popescu: depends, they drank all sorts of swill. including jerez port absynth whatnot. [18:34]
mircea_popescu: basically, the whole medieval period lived on hobo wine. cheap, sweetened, etc. the exact thing, midnight thunder or w/e it's called. [18:35]
ben_vulpes: i was a few centuries off on stills. [18:36]
mircea_popescu: except in the north where wine dun grow the poor drank beer. [18:36]
shinohai: I always imagined they were drinking Night Train in The Name of the Rose. [18:36]
mircea_popescu: very likely correct. though some northern monasteries did brew beer. [18:37]
mircea_popescu: (note that medieval beer has no hops, as a result doesn't keep, it's a lot closer to braga than what passes for beer today) [18:37]
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes cognac, ie the first distilled spirit, is about half a millenium old by now. [18:38]
mircea_popescu: !~google vital du four benefits armagnac [18:40]
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: France vaunts '40 virtues' of Armagnac | The Independent: <> Armagnac (brandy) - Wikipedia: <> The Virtues of Armagnac - Life At The Table: <> [18:40]
mircea_popescu: heh k. [18:40]
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> basically, the whole medieval period lived on hobo wine. cheap, sweetened, etc. the exact thing, midnight thunder or w/e it's called. << Thunderbird, Night Train, Mad Dog, Wild Irish Rose, and Cisco. RIP Ripple. [19:02]
mircea_popescu: aha [19:02]
BingoBoingo: Mad Dog doesn't really count anymore since they "rebranded" with blig. [19:03]
BingoBoingo: *bling [19:03]
BingoBoingo: This was illustrated as the most fair thing. Elliot discovering Thunderbird and becoming a Chief. Given his excess of will and manner of drinking it was inevitable. [19:05]
BingoBoingo: Just so long as a plot kept Elliot's will from making him an hero. [19:05]
BingoBoingo: Anyways Make Great, Great Again. A bunch of hillary supporters burned a black church and wrote "Vote Trump" on it to mobilize the black vote. [19:06]
thestringpuller: ^- hahahahaha Da scam keeps on scammin [19:08]
BingoBoingo: Make Great Great Again: "You’re hardly irresponsible with your funds. You’re saving a decent sum of money and working on paying down debt. As for your company: It sounds like it won’t be a lifetime job. You can easily permit yourself the spending on your cat." << [19:58]
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: it's dead [20:04]
BingoBoingo: Where else from [20:05]
asciilifeform: colt health & life insurance corp. [20:07]
* asciilifeform reads sticker under elbow: 'prohibited the machine start of no water' (followed by buncha hieroglyphs) [20:08]
asciilifeform: she cow pig had kittens!! [20:09]
BingoBoingo: lol [20:09]
BingoBoingo: Colt Property, But Mostly Casualty Inc. [20:11]
asciilifeform: colt retirement fund co. [20:11]
asciilifeform: the american way!111 [20:12]
mircea_popescu: the reading of impossible without the garden. [20:18]
* BingoBoingo glad satoshi called it the wallet and not the purse. Imagines "How to cut the purse strings" on Trilema. [20:30]
mircea_popescu: lol for srs [20:31]
* BingoBoingo waits for inevitable Trilema of that title now. [20:31]
mircea_popescu: it's evitable. [20:34]
hanbot: ("it's evitable", however, probably isn't) [20:34]
mircea_popescu: screw you guise, i'm going to bed. [20:35]
mod6: finally caught up :] [20:37]
mircea_popescu: welcome among the current, mod6 :D [20:38]
mod6: aha, ty! [20:38]
BingoBoingo: it was evitable until mentioned. [20:40]
mod6: !%e trb 29 F "Redesign Wallet" "The original Reference Implementation wallet needs a redesign." 30 [20:44]
mircea_popescu: pretty healthy pile of tickets in there. [20:44]
mod6: Yeah, some of these could be a bit reviewed/reorg'd [20:45]
mod6: !%p trb 29 [20:45]
tb0t: Project: trb, ID: 29, Type: F, Subject: Redesign Wallet, Antecedents: 30, Notes: The original Reference Implementation wallet needs a redesign. [20:45]
mircea_popescu: teh 29 F is open for discussion anyway. [20:45]
mod6: For sure. I do like how I can use the tickets to track discussions thus far though. Saved the foundation from needing the stenographer. [20:46]
mircea_popescu: pretty cool [20:46]
mod6: yah, at least for now... [20:54]
mod6: I like the idea of private projects too. Gotta dig into that maybe. [20:54]
mod6: It's not a huge leap to get there anyway. [20:54]
shinohai: evening mod6 o7 [20:57]
mod6: hey shinohai o/ [20:59]
mod6: how goes? [21:00]
shinohai: Not bad here, on standby for the regrind and other things we discussed. Lots of thinking on the new trilema from today. [21:01]
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all --currency rmb [21:02]
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: BTCChina BTCRMB last: 5089.04, vol: 1045625.83120000 | Volume-weighted last average: 5089.04 [21:02]
mod6: shinohai: *nod* yeah lot to think about. [21:02]
shinohai: [21:13]
deedbot: << » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski - AGA Refinery Party: Danse Macabre [22:47]
asciilifeform: meanwhile, [23:02]
asciilifeform: ^ no prizes for guessing how the cam was botched. but hey, learning exercise. [23:03]
asciilifeform: (and yes, the plank was of shitwood and warped from heat also) [23:03]
ben_vulpes: thin looking stuff [23:04]
ben_vulpes: /very/ pretty card, asciilifeform [23:04]
asciilifeform: lol [23:05]
asciilifeform: a very common su deck [23:05]
asciilifeform: (didja know, even ordinary playing cards are fuck-ugly in usa and brit world ??) [23:05]
ben_vulpes: old story mass produced blablabla [23:06]
asciilifeform: i have nfi why actually [23:06]
ben_vulpes: no taste to be had at any price? [23:06]
ben_vulpes: some of those teeth are very odd looking. [23:07]
ben_vulpes: is that from the warping? [23:07]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: overcooked [23:07]
ben_vulpes: hm [23:07]
ben_vulpes: ic [23:07]
ben_vulpes: and you're doing this with a laser why? [23:08]
asciilifeform: it was a helloworld! [23:08]
ben_vulpes: ok ok [23:08]
ben_vulpes: what /are/ you cutting with the laser? [23:08]
asciilifeform: this will be described later. [23:08]
asciilifeform: btw since ben_vulpes asked, what's the cheap way to make gear ? [23:09]
ben_vulpes: what kind of application? [23:09]
asciilifeform: because afaik laser is the easiest + cheapest, supposing you can live with material that it cuts [23:09]
asciilifeform: there are, sadly, not so many uses for wooden or plexiglass gears. [23:10]
ben_vulpes: well, no, and "depends" [23:10]
asciilifeform: but if you have gigantic laser.. [23:10]
ben_vulpes: no you stop with that [23:10]
trinque: lol [23:10]
ben_vulpes: what application, asciilifeform [23:11]
asciilifeform: eh nm. [23:11]
ben_vulpes: perhaps giant wooden cog with mega reduction will serve asciilifeform's purposes! [23:11]
ben_vulpes: who is to know [23:11]
asciilifeform: ftr i am not making mechanical rsatron. [23:12]
asciilifeform: yet. [23:12]
ben_vulpes: get a temperature controllable oven, start with soft steel and harden it per the kindergarten heat treatment tables [23:12]
ben_vulpes: if yer really strapped for cash, get a propane "poofer" and a laser thermometer. [23:13]
ben_vulpes: 's how we did the bearing races on the fin can. [23:14]
asciilifeform: strapped for fireproof work surface. [23:14]
ben_vulpes: it's called a fucking driveway! [23:14]
asciilifeform: i've none. [23:14]
ben_vulpes: wut [23:14]
ben_vulpes: heart of the empire [23:14]
asciilifeform: i shit thee not [23:14]
ben_vulpes: the place to which all roads lead [23:14]
asciilifeform: i 'parallel-park' on motherfucking city street, yes [23:15]
ben_vulpes: seat of government from which eisenhower edicted that roads will be laid to all stoops [23:15]
ben_vulpes: and you nignogs don't have cement /driveways/? [23:15]
asciilifeform: fwiw, all the other houses on the street - do [23:15]
asciilifeform: (well, gravel, not cement) [23:15]
ben_vulpes: such imperium! [23:15]
trinque: [23:16]
a111: Logged on 2016-10-31 17:27 asciilifeform: i always wondered if the very sad infrastructure in washington, a kind of frozen-in-time 1970s theme park, is at least partly on account of the expectation that anthill will be leveled 'any day' [23:16]
asciilifeform: i also pay 2-3x per square m. vs anyone else who lives here. because not-mortgaged. [23:16]
asciilifeform: this was in old thread, is not mega-newz. [23:16]
ben_vulpes: in any event, the controllable kiln/oven should be achievable. [23:16]
asciilifeform: not in a wooden shack, it isn't [23:17]
ben_vulpes: you don't even have a steel work table outside?! [23:17]
asciilifeform: nope [23:17]
asciilifeform: on what to put it, on earth that turns liquid when rains ? [23:17]
asciilifeform: (whole thing does..) [23:17]
asciilifeform: one time i bought a truckload of plinths, made a walking-path, it... sank. [23:18]
ben_vulpes: hold on a goddamn second [23:18]
ben_vulpes: plinths are ~2ft tall [23:18]
asciilifeform: these were 2 in. tall. [23:18]
ben_vulpes: that is most definitely not a plinth. [23:18]
asciilifeform: 'twas what they had at the plinth shop, lel. [23:18]
ben_vulpes: i'd crucify the architect who tried to tell me that an ionian column could sit aesthetically o 2 inches of plinth. [23:19]
ben_vulpes: > plinth shop [23:19]
asciilifeform: no architects were harmed in the making of this production. [23:19]
asciilifeform: just an old miser and a bunch of shit masonry. [23:19]
ben_vulpes: "baliff? whack his architect." [23:19]
ben_vulpes: only tangentially relatedly, cheech and chong scrubbed the rape jokes from their classic albums. [23:20]
ben_vulpes: shame. [23:20]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes carries half tonne plinths with own hands ? [23:25]
asciilifeform: or owns crane ? [23:25]
ben_vulpes: no but i also don't call that which isn't a plinth a plinth [23:27]
* ben_vulpes still having trouble with the gravel driveway thing [23:31]
ben_vulpes: water company showed up the other day to relocate our meter [23:32]
ben_vulpes: left a gravel patch for ~3 days [23:32]
ben_vulpes: came back and tarred the thing down level with the rest of the driveway [23:32]
ben_vulpes: [23:43]
ben_vulpes: "The feature was so great that we started to overload the service." [23:44]
asciilifeform: l0l!! [23:44]
asciilifeform: also since when does ben_vulpes use vs..? [23:44]
ben_vulpes: since never! [23:44]
asciilifeform: lolk [23:45]
ben_vulpes: but let me tell you about how well xcode <latest> upgraded this swift 2 project to swift 3 [23:45]
ben_vulpes: FUCKING POORLY [23:45]
ben_vulpes: "o i see you have a target, i'll just swizzle these files around and source-to-source transform all these other files" [23:45]
ben_vulpes: from other parts of the room: "i'm sure there's some highfalutin' CS reason why -- " [23:46]
ben_vulpes: "our boxes?" [23:46]
ben_vulpes: "..." [23:47]
asciilifeform: i was recently using a proggy called inkscape. vector drawing thing. and recent update broke ~ALL plugins. [23:47]
asciilifeform: that ANYONE has written. [23:47]
asciilifeform: this is somehow acceptable on the author's planet..? [23:47]
ben_vulpes: well, using anything other than illustrator for vector work is very stupid for precisely this reason. [23:47]
asciilifeform: lolwut [23:48]
ben_vulpes: unrelatedly, el pequeno took his first steps at his one-year birthday/halloween party while i was on the back porch smoking cigarettes [23:49]
trinque: aw shit [23:49]
trinque: serious adventure time now, out the window, across the yard [23:50]
ben_vulpes: "eh, i'll believe it when i see it ten times." [23:50]
ben_vulpes: one day later... [23:50]
ben_vulpes: trinque: miniature ice-mobiles, bicycles, skateboards and other mother-terrorizing devices may be delivered to <ADDRESS> [23:51]
trinque: loller [23:52]
ben_vulpes: naw, the girl is to be commended for her tolerance of and adaptation to all sorts of baby-genic father-driven torture [23:53]
Category: Logs
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