So I was thinking...

Monday, 02 September, Year 11 d.Tr. | Author: Mircea Popescu

Pretty much all I did all day today was shopping, and through it all I was thinking...

First, at some ungodly hour in the morning, we took Florimund in to have its drivetrain calibrated or however you call it when they mount those strobe lights on the wheels and make the disco with your car, and bought some odds and ends needed there, then a spare wheel for the spare tyre, a coupla lighter plug to usb converters, a grid-to-car-battery "redresor" aka AC-DC converter, distilled water, a one euro plastic safety thing for the gearbox oil gauge because if you take it off to measure the oil it supposedly breaks off (mine didn't -- and if you care the oil's teardrop, and to the max), a flashlight (Ima throw it out though, it's blue, fucking useless store can't check whether they're useful or not, next time I'm carrying batteries), work gloves for the trunk, locks, a bunch of other stuff we won't go into... but through it all, I was thinking.

Then we drove fifteen miles out of town, to an unmarked location where a guy with no shingle made more electronic keys on the basis of taking apart and reading out the contact assemblage, right out of his house. He had one of those cool Mercedes cabriolets in his garage (which he said he'd owned for the past twenty years, German plates, the works). We exchanged memories of the 90s under the worried gaze of a bimbo ("is this even legal ?") and parted amicably. It's always nice to know people, especially in the shape of a piece of paper with a name and a phone number delivered by courier, coincidentally just like in the fucking movies. Yet I was thinking...

We went besides to every type of shop available, and bought just about everything there is conceivably available to buy, five pounds of fresh salmon and a bunch of fresh oysters, ten gallon glass jugs in plastic cover as well as a buncha smaller ones (for home-made liqueurs and cordials and such), short handled spade, champagne, phones, fiddy jars or so of zacusca, two packs of 24 toilet paper rolls (these go together), an outside broom, nipplepins (though I hear some people also use them to hold up their clothes on the line), fiddy galons or so of mineral water, pharmaceutical vaseline and mega buttslapping paddle (they think it's for grilling), cute plates, fans, fruits, matches, moustache stickers (for srs), wine... we even took a special trip to the special textile mill outlet store where Viorica makes us sweatshop shit on the cheap to order towels and cute/humiliatory aprons in heart shapes and more bedding and whatnot, easily a ton of materiel all toldi in two or three trunkloads (it's a 695 litre trunk, you realise). But all the while... I was thinking.

Then (meaning, after cooking and scarfing salmon etc) we went to town, and had iced lattes and icecream aside and sat and watched the girls go by, while I was thinking... and then we went to the mall, where I marched the sluts into the pet shop, bought them doggy collars and doggy leashes, most pretty leather ones ; I even got a glow in the dark, usb-powered pink one, for optimal humiliation. Then I collared them right then and there, in front of an ever-growing crowd of gawkers (no doubt this'll be the "social media" event of the month in this sad, inconsequential subcultural space) and we walked through the entire mall, leash in my handii -- first to the key copying guy, then to the Gatta stocking store across the mall, where we bought stockings and whole body things ("are those crotchless ?" *blushing* "yes"). The girl tending the lingerie counter, like the boy tending the key stand, like everyone else really really fucking tense while trying to pretend not so much that nothing's happening, but that they're oh-so-very-ok with whatever-the-fuck-this-is. Girly even shuffled a small pile of evidently hand-written notes into our bag, "oh, are those your journals ?" "no, nonononon" "well alright... but I hope you're publishing yes ?" "oh, no... I... I don't want to publish anything 18+ just yet". Right ?

It was fun, did you ever fantasize about being casually collared and publicly humiliated for all the mall rats one day ? Casually, you understand, none of this was pre-planned, let alone discussed afore the fact, as I drank milk from the liter bottle in the sexy undies store because I was thirsty and we coincidentally forgot to buy water it occured to me just how fucking livresque the scene is, yet there it flew, as it flew. And still, all the while...

What the fuck was I thinking about, enough of the charade ? Fine, since you ask, here it is :

I. We will be serving http for a while yet to come, it's unavoidable.

II. The one way to serve http is the Apache server. This is inescapable, nginx is roughly speaking a useless pos (that has to be run atop Apache anyways), and everything else is nothing else -- flask especially is comedically bad (not to mention -- also to be run atop Apache necessarily), hutchenhoot might work but so far this yet seems unlikely to me.

II.a. Even should hutch work out, CL (or any "proper" flavour of Lisp, for that matter) is and remains a terrible tool for munging strings -- while the entire object domain of serving http is munging strings.

III. Since one gets mysql for free from (l) A m p, mysql is gonna be the db system, like it or not. It's inevitable.

IV. Since one gets php for free from (l) A m p, php is gonna be the string munger slash "scripting language", like it or not. It's just as inevitable.

That is the stack - L, A, M, P. There's nothing else, and nothing that can be really done about it as things stand. Yes you can use python (or bash, or moontalk or malbolge or whatever the shit) "instead" of php -- but it won't be instead. Php will still be in your system, you'll just opt to add some more dependencies. You can't have a http server "without php" because you're not writing a patchy server by-hand, and that's the end of that matter, paint it whatever color. You can have a system "with php" or a system "with php and also python", but that's all the practical optionality open to you. Similarily, yes you can use postgres (and I suspect there might be very good reasons to actually use it), but it won't be instead of mysql, it'll be alongside mysql. Meaning, the minimalistic system will be without postgres, like it or not.

I've been thinking through thick and thin, through all the foregoingly described today and all the undescribed thus unknown yet just as happened days to make up the rest of the two weeks intervening, because it's such an intolerably unpleasant conclusion. Nevertheless, it's what it is, unpleasant or not, tolerable or otherwise : 1. we will in fact be serving http ; 2. we will in fact use apache-mysql-php for this ; 3. everything else's just masturbation. Yes it can be included, but no it doesn't have to be included, nor does it actually come free. It comes at a cost, and the cost's an extra helping of madness. Writing www data displayers in php means one avoids that ; writing them in anything else means one eats that. It's ineluctable.

I'm not about to ban development outside the minimalistic set ; but the extra cost one assumes (and, in turn, forces upon future people) through going outside can't simply be ignored. It's there, it must be addressed.

I very much want to have a clear and complete discussion now, before we're grandfathered into expensive unhappiness ; I don't think it can be further avoided. So...

What say you ?

———
  1. Ask ye me not of price, for I buy by weight not by the dollar. []
  2. You realise this is not exactly trivial, walking with multiple girls on leashes. You're best advised to hold the ends behind your back, and they have to walk in certain ways... it takes some doing to do elegantly right, you can't just leash rando girls off the street and avoid looking ridiculous for whole minutes at a stretch. []
Category: Meta psihoza
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47 Responses

  1. Trololol ?

    Neither apache, nor mysql, nor php, are "necessary to be used alongside" the other listed proggies -- or for that matter present on Dulap at all.

  2. In all seriousness -- in particular Mysql and PG are probably effectively-interchangeable parts (simply so happens that I have NFI how to bake a trigraph index on the former, these aren't part of standard SQL, so always vendor knob.) In re Php, clearly it is possible to write e.g. WP in it -- but how would you bake e.g. bot, or other continuous process?

    Everybody wants to use his own favourite "legacy cobol", and could debate until end of time which is less of a monstrosity -- but they aren't entirely equivalent in functionality. (E.g. continuous processes absent in Php; and where it is ~impossible to write Py proggy that can be reconfigged w/out stopping, as is routine in CL; and could find many other example.)

  3. Mircea Popescu`s avatar
    3
    Mircea Popescu 
    Tuesday, 3 September 2019

    Didn't you try to use nginx only to give up, and didn't you agree with everyone (including the developers) that flask's not actually capable as an internet-facing webserver ?

  4. @Mircea Popescu #3: My current logotron still sits in "nginx" (same one where Phuctor). But I don't recommend it for new installs, it doesn't seem to win anywhere over classic apache.

    Flask's been running Phuctor since '13, with 0 issues. But it is a pretty ugly thing. It took the outage to get me enraged enough to overcome gag reflex and bake a wartime logger from it.

    FTR I have no objection to ~other~ folks writing own loggers in whatever crusty fortran they happen prefer. As I understand Lobbes has a working one (requiring minor corrections for multi-chan) w/ Php, even.

  5. Mircea Popescu`s avatar
    5
    Mircea Popescu 
    Tuesday, 3 September 2019

    Yes, but the delusional relativization doesn't actually do anything. In point of fact, the alternatives don't work, in your own experience as disavowed as that may be (leaving aside everyone else's experience and all other considerations). So the point stands : either use A, or else use A + b [c, d, e, f]. It's not a matter of "everyone's favourite", but strictly a matter of "either A, or else A + more stuff".

  6. Internet survival tips: Google image search for mircea popescu anal returns much better results than google search for anal.

  7. @Mircea Popescu #5 :

    Right now 'A' is the contents of my junk bin, which, whatever else can be said, added up to a working and stable logotron (now 2 installs, soon to be 3, Lobbes is baking one) -- rather than hypothetical 'B', 'C', other junkyards, which -- potentially could, but presently -- do not. ( Lobbes incidentally had Php viewer, but sewed irc bot also out of pythonisms, very similar to mine. )

  8. Mircea Popescu`s avatar
    8
    Mircea Popescu 
    Tuesday, 3 September 2019

    @Anon Somehow I'm unsurprised.

    @Stanislav Datskovskiy *shrug* Not like you have to talk about it if you don't want to.

  9. @Mircea Popescu #7 :

    Would quite like to talk about it; but IMHO would be much more interesting conversation if there were multiple heterogeneous genesis'd examples of solutions to $problem, rather than just one.

    And must point out, if on Aug. 8 it were not I but the PHP aficionados who rolled out a usable logotron in ~6d after you asked for one -- rather than what actually happened, I would find the orig. argument "just do it all in PHP, all else is pointless wankery" persuasive. Whereas presently I find it head-scratching, to say the least.

  10. > II.a. Even should hutch work out, CL (or any "proper" flavour of Lisp, for that matter) is and remains a terrible tool for munging strings -- while the entire object domain of serving http is munging strings.

    Could elaborate on this pl0x? In my documented experience, CL is, at its worst, as worst as PHP for munging strings.

    That being said, I completely agree with the idea that any "Hutch&Toot" should come alongside Apache, I wouldn't trust it to serve HTTP on its own. I don't agree that PHP is *the* language for serving HTML, though.

    > Yes it can be included, but no it doesn't have to be included, nor does it actually come free. It comes at a cost, and the cost's an extra helping of madness.

    Well, writing (whatever) code in whatever language is one thing, bringing up systems is another. The madness in bringing up ossabot IMHO comes from the auxiliary tools (Flask et al.) not being yet stolen in a V tree, which reduces this particular discussion to Cuntoo. So yeah, if you want Cuntoo to be a LAMP (where P = PHP), it'll be one; otherwise it can as well be a LAMP, where P = Python, or whatever.

    Speaking of which: we don't have a LAMP genesis yet, do we?

    Otherwise I don't have any problem with writing code in PHP, Perl, SNOBOL or whatever. And would indeed make this decision earlier rather than later, so I can at least throw out the CL shit if that's the case.

  11. Mircea Popescu`s avatar
    11
    Mircea Popescu 
    Tuesday, 3 September 2019

    @Stanislav Datskovskiy

    > Would quite like to talk about it;

    IF you'd like to talk about something (and that's a pretty big if, by the looks of it so far), the way to signal this to other people is specifically not engaging in patent nonsense of the ilk of

    Hey MP, you know that two week old thing I wrote for your chan by your spec ? Well, that's gonna be now my only experience with the topic, notwithstanding that trilema the blog has been doing the exact same thing for a decade, and in actual volume, and come to think of it the only reason I even moved up in the world, from a blog broken to the point of unusability to making actually useful things is through my interaction with it, subjectively painful and outwardly narrated-reframed-explained-etcetera as it might've been.

    You don't have the experience on which to qualify to a discussion in terms of "everyone's favourite cobol" re the www stack. You even only learned what the fuck a database is last week! Loudly pretending to the contrary in this context while (just as loudly) disavowing it in other contexts just makes you sound twelve ; and the fact that you were perfectly capable to sit on a blog with broken comments "because reasons" for fucking years, ie as if in your own head some kind of an explanation of a defect that you accept is "just as good" as remedial of the defect paints you incapable to discuss anything in general, age-irrespective.

    Now lay off it, an' stop lashing about in general, it's unseemly.

    > the orig. argument "just do it all in PHP, all else is pointless wankery"

    The "orig argument" is that you are currently running a php interpreter you arbitrarily opt to not use, so as to use some other thing, that people who want to replicate your solution must in turn replicate. If we were getting ready to go camping, and we all have 4x4s and pick-up trucks, and we all agree to go for a weekend to "this cool river spot alf found", we'd all be pretty blown away if your recipe to arriving there included "don't use the engine, buy a horse, affix it to the car, let it drag it to the place -- this is the only way to get there!!!". Nor would anyone stand for such patently broken nonsense in any other fucking field, but apparently software engineers not only enjoy a lengthy tradition of irresponsibility intermingled with idiocy, they also firmly expect to permanently get away with it!

    At the time Diana Coman nearly gave up on running "your working solution", she had a perfectly working php interpreter running just like you did. That is the orig argument.

    @spyked

    > CL is, at its worst, as worst as PHP for munging strings.

    I've re-read that (for the n-th time, but what can you do). I've no pretense I understand it (in the exacting sense "understanding" takes when one expects to produce dispositive judgements on its basis) ; but bear with me perhaps we illuminate this. Concretely taking mp-wp_html-comments-regrind.vpatch as our reference point, here's three examples I've arbitrarily selected :

    • if (strpos($comment_content,"BEGIN PGP")>0) $comment_content = "<code>".$comment_content."</code>";
    • $myrows = $wpdb->get_var('SELECT comment_ID FROM '.$wpdb->comments.' WHERE comment_author_IP = "'.$_SERVER["REMOTE_ADDR"].'" and comment_approved = "spam";');
    • return preg_replace_callback('%((<!--.*?(-->|$))|(<[^>]*(>|$)|>))%',

    Now, leaving aside arguments of how utterly terrible code this is -- how would you do the same in lisp ? Yes, you may asume whatever prior definitions passed implicitly, I don't intend to compile the result, merely read it, how would it look ? And yes, I agree that failure doesn't come even remotely to disqualifying lisp as a language, it disqualifies php if anything, sure. Yet "munging strings" as used and not yet propely defined is a primitive of "port 80 content", meaning that if it's a broken problem it's because that's broken, driving in all sorts of other considerations which we'll count as lateral here.

    > I completely agree with the idea that any "Hutch&Toot" should come alongside Apache, I wouldn't trust it to serve HTTP on its own

    Why the fuck not ?

    > I don't agree that PHP is *the* language for serving HTML, though.

    But why not ? That's the fucking point here, you're all more than welcome to do whatever you want to the girls at home. But when you wanna do it to public girls, or to random girls in public, or whatever the fuck, suddenly the whys and wherefores become quite important.

    > The madness in bringing up ossabot IMHO comes from the auxiliary tools (Flask et al.) not being yet stolen in a V tree

    Yes, of fucking course the cost of eating fish with your bread comes from "fish not being yet free", meaning that if you already have a slavegirl you've trained to procure flour and bake bread but you don't have a slavegirl you've trained to go to the river and fish (and procure bait and hooks and string and all) then you're stuck buying the fish, while the bread is "free".

    Except, of fucking course, you have to ~actually find the future slavefisher to be~. Which we patently don't know how to do, as a group, whatever individual talents we might have individually. And then... you know, there's high performance alloys in those hooks, something breadmaking doesn't require, you'll need a blacksmithy built (and all you have is the girl that built you a bread oven, quite not the same thing, though I'm sure she'll be happy to try).

    Who the fuck am I going to ask to steal fucking flask, an atrocity of epic proportions in an atrocious Edda of insanity that boggles the mind ?! And what the fuck am I going to tell them ? And when they go insane what the fuck am I going to have carved on the gravestone, "here lies X, unfortunate soul, whose loss is not merely my loss but actually my doing" ? I ain't ever fucking doing that.

    > if you want Cuntoo to be a LAMP (where P = PHP)

    I very fucking well don't want that. You tell me, like a sane human, what the fuck options are there. But like a sane human, okay ?

    Mind that Michael Trinque got pretty well butthurt last time a (false) sniff of this even vaguely adiated about. It wasn't even the case, then, and he threw a fit, what the fuck do we do if it is actually the case we didn't think this through enough by the time we start tinkering on it ? Hm ?

    > Speaking of which: we don't have a LAMP genesis yet, do we?

    No, this is actually what "we" are trying to figure the fuck out here. Should we ? What the fuck should we do.

  12. Mircea Popescu`s avatar
    12
    Mircea Popescu 
    Tuesday, 3 September 2019

    Amusingly enough, item #1 on the list actually engaged, I had to remove <code></code> wrappers from the above comment by hand. Then I spent five minutes trying to figure out what the fuck went wrong here, until I noticed the meta (which brought to mind a similar problem recently, where similarily the problem turned out not to be the code, but the fucking paradigm, ie what "the problem domain" / "www" / "string munging" etc even is).

    Apparently we've got such a sparkingly great forum, the essences themselves wish to speak / participate, because how the fuck else is one to explain such coincidental comedy!

  13. I'ma resist the (beautifully crafted, complete with the expected "I created!! you!, pupil, without me you were illiterate peasant!") flamebait of #11 (try s/PHP/MS Win/ and get exactly ~same "logic") and meanwhile from #12+ let the insanity of the LAMP garbage pile speak for itself.

    If Mircea Popescu would like to have a technical -- rather than religious -- discussion, i.e. without the Vyshinsky-style preordained verdicts, will happily participate; otherwise must pass.

  14. Re: "genesis Flask?" -- why the fuck would you even consider to?! It's to be thrown out! Along with python, and the entire wartime kludge pile. But would have to replace it with something in which can actually implement not only the WWW reader, but the bot!

  15. > You tell me, like a sane human, what the fuck options are there. But like a sane human, okay ?

    Thinking about this throughout the day, I'm beginning to believe not too many, huh. Actually, coupling this with:

    > No, this is actually what "we" are trying to figure the fuck out here. Should we ? What the fuck should we do.

    The only thing that comes to mind so far is: step 1: freeze in amber (as Stan would say) everything Gentoo/Cuntoo has and is; not like Linux is going away any time, nor PHP, nor MySQL/PostgreSQL, nor all the other crap that comes with them; I'm aware this is what Cuntoo already aims to achieve, although I'm not sure V is even suited for this, because I'm not sure I'd need to e.g. maintain bash rather than just keep it the way it is. Then step 2: build any other new shit on top of not-LAMP, and direct all efforts towards migrating existing sane software to that (yet nonexistent) something-else-system.

    I'm not sure myself whether step 2 is realistic, heck, it could take years before something usable sees the light of day, but the only alternative is to, yes, acknowledge the complexity involved in building this shitstack and genesize it. I don't even know whether Trinque's initial approach is The Right Thing (if it is, then an hero should at least mirror the portage tree before it breaks the current bootstrapper? or will that work nevertheless?) and I'm aware this goes beyond the initial discussion, but I can swear the same problem that Diana had with Flask is going to come up again on some other LAMP setup that isn't Gentoo 2016, Debian Sarge or CentOS whatever. Because that's the way things seem to historically go, someone, somehow will try to setup e.g. MP-WP on some version of PHP/MySQL that decided to break compatibility with everything else. And then what?

    Anyway, I'm just ranting here, so I'll try to address the other points more succintly.

    > Concretely taking mp-wp_html-comments-regrind.vpatch as our reference point, here's three examples I've arbitrarily selected

    (IIRC standard) Common Lisp has more or less the same string ops as illustrated in the three examples, so they wouldn't look more different -- but indeed, then that would be PHP code written in Lisp!

    Anyway, the correct approach in all three examples would be to handle the abstractions instead of letting them leak, i.e. by parsing the inputs into whatever input language they happen to be written (HTML/PGP packet, SQL and HTML respectively). Then, and only then, process them and re-stringify the result.

    > Why the fuck not ?

    Apache's failure modes are by now very well documented, while Hunchentoot's not (to my knowledge, at least). The latter e.g. assumes the OS can spawn an arbitrary number of threads, one for each connection, and I'm not even sure *how* that is going to fail under a DDoS. On the other hand, there is indeed merit to exposing Hunchentoot completely, as this'll reveal some of its flaws.

    > But why not ?

    Apache is very well suited for HTTP, i.e. a buncha strings transported over a socket. HTML in particular, however, as retarded as it is, is a tree representation, and PHP is a string munger over that, much like the C preprocessor is a string munger over C. It might not have ended up on Linuxen as mere happenstance, and yet... the hidden costs of return preg_replace_callback('%((<!--.*?(-->|$))|(<[^>]*(>|$)|>))%', are there!

    > Who the fuck am I going to ask to steal fucking flask, an atrocity of epic proportions in an atrocious Edda of insanity that boggles the mind ?!

    By the looks of its shithub repository, Flask's size is about the same order of magnitude as Hunchentoot's, and I expect it has much the same dependency trees, so why wouldn't its users, similarly, just steal it and attach some documentation of what Python version the genesis'ed item works on and how to get it to run? As I understand, it does run on Python 2.7, so what's the actual difference between genesizing the full orchestra for one and not the other, other than one being CL and the other being Python? Not even bringing into discussion that an Apache genesis would/will be larger most likely by one or two orders of magnitude, *and* in buffer-overflow-C. Believe me, I read some of that nasty C code (kernel coad, not Apache, but whatever) just today and I'ma become a buddhist monk if I don't end up throwing this computer out the window.

    In other words, it seems to me that there's no choice other than between atrocious Eddas.

  16. @Stanislav Datskovskiy:

    > Re: "genesis Flask?" -- why the fuck would you even consider to?!

    Because critical infrastructure, i.e. logger, depends on it. Why the fuck should I download items off shithub/portage repo/whatevers to run a logger?

  17. @spyked / 16:

    At the risk of repeating myself -- and because apparently did not make this clear when genesis'd it -- it is an example logger! Intended to 1) close the outage and get us back in biz 2) demonstrate that the problem is reasonably solvable (IMHO succeeded, already shown that "pinger threads" and other wtf-kludges unnecessary...) and give starting point for long-term solution.

    Please do throw it out! and replace with proper logger.

  18. Overall I'd say I agree re Apache (i.e. I) and I can at least see the point of "this here set is the minimal, unavoidable but reasonably complete (as functionality) set" with the implication that it becomes effectively the default and any straying outside of it/adding to it is in fact acceptable only if/when the cost of importing additional madness is truly greater than the cost of doing the task with this set of tools. Since I dislike anyway all of them quite equally and moreover I don't actually have an alternative set of tools that I can propose as better (even in the sense of "I really want to use those/they are very effective"), I quite value/welcome the idea of having at least the smallest possible set decided and cemented, there is that. And while I'm aware of various differences (e.g. Mysql vs Postgres), I can't really argue for an overall "best" between them. If someone else can, it would be very interesting to read (and I would totally switch to whatever is indeed best, if there's such thing).

    The above being said, for mysql+php I can't quite follow the stated links/implications as such. Specifically:

    II and III - I don't get what /how is it "for free". I know you see/consider "lamp" as a unit and unbreakable or something but it's not at all the case i.e. "must have Apache" does not bring with it automatically mysql at all as far as I know (this is verified in practice btw e.g. the logger's machine runs Apache + postgres without any mysql installed, just double checked for my own peace of mind). So why or how does II and III flow from I?

    Re Hutchentoot (I) and CL's (in)ability with string munging I just don't know enough to say anything either way so I'll leave it to spyked, asciilifeform, trinque.

    Also, there's II.a. but no II.b. or I just don't see it?

  19. Stan, no way yet directly to "proper logger", is there? And the likely interval to the point where "can proper logger" is too long to just ignore and carry on.

  20. @Diana Coman : re II/III -- FTR neither my test bed, where wrote the logger, nor Dulap, where deployed -- contain Apache, MySql, or PHP. As in at all. Which is not to say that I haven't other machines which do contain these. But they in no sense "come as a kit".

    When baked the temporary mirrors, used strictly Apache + the various pythonisms (as later used in your own logger box.) They install separately just like expected.

  21. @Diana Coman #19 : IMHO the correct pill is to bake the minimal scripting lang described earlier.

    I'm even sympathetic to MP's "I know this 1 traditional lang, why didntcha write the thing in it, that you wrote supposedly for me, so I could fiddle it myself". But fact remains that you cannot physically write the ~bot~ in PHP, it doesn't support continuous sessions! So no, presently I haven't "here is in what to write Properly." The "in-what" has to be made.

  22. Mircea Popescu`s avatar
    22
    Mircea Popescu 
    Tuesday, 3 September 2019

    @Stanislav Datskovskiy

    > i.e. without the Vyshinsky-style preordained verdicts

    Fucking nonsense. Think ye about it, if indeed I had some kind of investment either way could I be arsed to take time out of an otherwise busy schedule of throwing darts at the map and getting taken there in the fuckmobile to put work into attempting to separate the spec from the implementation ?

    Most of the things you read weren't in the piece you're reading!

    > Re: "genesis Flask?" -- why the fuck would you even consider to?!

    It currently is required for what currently passes for basic infrastructure, wth.

    > But would have to replace it with something in which can actually implement not only the WWW reader, but the bot!

    Yes well.

    @spyked

    > 1: freeze in amber everything

    Diana Coman tried to do this once (privately, on S.MG's time/dime), and it went nowhere at the rate of Gbps.

    It's one of those things that are easy to say and in practice impossible to actually do.

    > rather than just keep it the way it is

    The error here is to imagine "bash" is a something that thereby is a certain way. This isn't the case, much like "keep humans just the way they are" reduces to nothing in particular.

    > not-LAMP

    What does this mean ?

    Let's do some work on Sicilian together.

    C'e la luna mezz'o mare mamma mia me maritari!
    Figghia mia, a cu te dari ?
    Mamma mia pensaci tu.

    Si ci dugnu lu babberi iddu va, iddu veni 'u rasolu manu teni... Si ci pigghia la fantasia mi rasulia la figghia mia.

    Si ci dugnu falignami iddu va, iddu veni 'u chianuzzu manu teni... Si ci pigghia la fantasia mi chiannuzulia la figghia mia.

    Si ci dugnu lu scapparu iddu va, iddu veni 'u matteddu manu teni... Si ci pigghia la fantasia mi matteddia la figghia mia.

    Si ci dugnu zuppunaro iddu va, iddu veni 'u zappuni manu teni... Si ci pigghia la fantasia mi zappunia la figghia mia.

    Si ci dugnu macillaiu iddu va, iddu veni la sasizza manu teni... Si ci pigghia la fantasia mi sasizzia la figghia mia.

    Si ci dugnu piscialiolu iddu va, iddu veni e lu pisci manu teni... Si ci pigghia la fantasia mi pisciulia la figghia mia.

    Si ti rugnu 'o 'nzalataru iddu va, iddu veni, sempe 'o citrolu ne mani teni... Si ci pigghia 'a fantasia ti citrolu figghiuzza mia.

    I expect it's directly comprehensible ; notice perhaps how there's no consideration of marriage with a ... not-fisherman/butcher/garnder etcetera in there ? Jane can very well be married off to Joe, or to Moe, or to Loe, and make them an excellent wife whether she wants to or not, sure. But no girl since the invention of girlyhood has yet been married to a non-Joe, nor will this ever happen. The non-Joe is one of those things easy to represent but impossible to exist, direct testament of the fundamental mismatch between representation and existence.

    > but I can swear the same problem that Diana had with Flask is going to come up again on some other LAMP setup that isn't Gentoo 2016, Debian Sarge or CentOS whatever

    Very likely ; yet as a matter of fact the only thing the forefathers conceivably / arguably actually did (in the universal and all encompassing sense of doing) would be making your bet not work out. So perhaps LAMP fares better than "average" (as constructed by eg looking through github), or considering the text without the piddly recantion. Perhaps.

    > e.g. MP-WP on some version of PHP/MySQL that decided to break compatibility with everything else

    This has already happened once, we had to have some emergency fixes to some prototype functions lest comments stopped working silently & altogether ; it's in the logs.

    > Common Lisp has more or less the same string ops as illustrated in the three examples, so they wouldn't look more different -- but indeed, then that would be PHP code written in Lisp!

    You're contradicting yourself, and what's worse : you're perhaps saying the standard is fucked in the head.

    > and yet... the hidden costs of return preg_replace_callback('%((|$))|(]*(>|$)|>))%', are there!

    Indeed they are. Chief and central among them, this discussion right here, because obviously if computers worked we wouldn't have to talk about it.

    > In other words, it seems to me that there's no choice other than between atrocious Eddas.

    Which directly leads to this article : if there's a choice between atrocious eddas, take the set with the least possible cardinal.

  23. Mircea Popescu`s avatar
    23
    Mircea Popescu 
    Tuesday, 3 September 2019

    @Diana Coman

    > I agree re Apache (i.e. I)

    Is this "ie, II" ?

    > and I would totally switch to whatever is indeed best, if there's such thing

    Quite.

    > I can't really argue for an overall "best" between them

    As a factual matter, it seems Postgres actually has better string search.

    > i.e. "must have Apache" does not bring with it automatically mysql

    The, specifically, mysql vs postgres is the weakest portion of the argument, in that indeed it seems these two might be interchangeable parts. Nevertheless, the overarching argument isn't that apache comes with mysql welded in, but with a ~database shaped hole~. Ie, your stack will use a db for www, by implicit design.

    The ~same is true of php, I suppose you can compile an apache omitting the php if you wish, but this "omission" does not in fact omit php from ~the design of apache~, it merely doesn't put it into the finished product, resulting in something rather more like the old "SX" Intel processors.

    > Also, there's II.a. but no II.b. or I just don't see it?

    There is no II.b, why, what did you expect to see in it ?

    @Stanislav Datskovskiy

    > contain Apache

    Did I misread "asciilifeform: diana_alt: i have plan to move the box to traditional apache, but yet not figured out how to do so w/out unacceptably long disruption of service" ?

    > But they in no sense "come as a kit".

    I don't see any merit to this view, besides wishful thinking. ~Linux~, the os itself, comes as a kit with, and for, and of these -- again, wishful thinking irrespective.

    > sympathetic to MP's "I know this 1 traditional lang

    It's kinda funny to me how people tend to assume I know / don't know whatever random minutia convenient in some argument. What the hell recommends me to knowing php all of a sudden ?

    > that you wrote supposedly for me, so I could fiddle it myself

    Really ?!

    Does this even make sense, somehow, in some reading I'm not thinking of ?

    > fact remains that you cannot physically write the ~bot~ in PHP, it doesn't support continuous sessions!

    The discussion kinda is about ~serving html~. Can it be about that, rather than whatever last happened to you and therefore's got dibs on your worldview or some shit ?!

  24. @Mircea Popescu #23 : leaving, momentarily, everything else alone : as a factual matter, there is no Apache on Dulap atm. (On the temp. mirrors, and now Diana's box -- is. And works 100%. It's an interchangeable part in the example logger, all that's asked of it is to forward port 5002 to 80.)

    And in what sense "Linux comes with... as kit" ? None of my Linuxen came-with anything whatsoever but the kernel and GCC bin, had to laboriously build the various progs each time.

  25. Mircea Popescu`s avatar
    25
    Mircea Popescu 
    Tuesday, 3 September 2019

    So what do you want to do, use nginx ?

  26. @Mircea Popescu #25 : IMHO nginx is obsolete. For all current installs I recommend traditional apache, posted a config (which Diana is now using, works.) And in principle I'm 100% in agreement re "use the oldest and best-studied parts, damn it", but within reason. I grant that e.g. PHP is "free" to the folks who already have it set up and loaded into head, but from my POV it weighs ~same as Cobol.

    In re "why do you assume MP knows PHP!" -- simply observing that, if the 2 of us were stuck in a lift, MP is "the one who knows PHP", I actually do not know it beyond kindergarten level.

  27. > Is this "ie, II" ?

    Rather: ie, I & II.

    > with a ~database shaped hole~

    This I agree with, yes. I suppose the debate is more as to "what best to put in this here gaping hole since neither options are anyway what one would like to have". And I suspect the differences in answers by different people are more often driven by how well/not well they know one or other fitting tool rather than the tool themselves. Fwiw years ago I *had to* use Postgres precisely "as opposed to MySQL" on the grounds that "it's faster, leaner and more effective." For all I know it might be, but I can't say I ever saw concrete evidence either way.

    Re php I don't know if Apache is specifically married to php to that degree or is this a scripting-lang shaped hole too? I'm asking not necessarily anti-php but rather with an eye towards possible step forwards, maybe replacing parts in turn if at all possible. The www part is not at all my forte.

    > There is no II.b, why, what did you expect to see in it ?

    Possible alternatives to Apache/Hutch (side note: wtf name is this, will try to remember to call my next piece of software popocatepeclteotihuacanandsoon), even hypothetical e.g. Ada-based (though equally bad-fit for munging strings but nevertheless, for completeness).

    It is true that Apache is basically unassailable as "has been there and at least it's known + works".

  28. Mircea Popescu`s avatar
    28
    Mircea Popescu 
    Tuesday, 3 September 2019

    @Stanislav Datskovskiy

    So then I don't understand what you don't understand. This "oh, I found a giraffe to the left of the elephant" field reports have a certain air of bizarre naivite to them, really, you found that so and so things were interchangeable, and T time in C context ? Wunderbar. Tell you what, I went downstairs found the car parked and a girl napping, ergo & therefore my car's a rock and my girl's Rapunzel. Logically, neh ?

    Things are what they are, irrespective of what they might be perceived to be doing at some arbitrary point, that's ultimately the difference between things and people, that people are what they do while things are what they are. Computer programs are things, not people, and so the fact that you config'd your apache to comment out a section therein does nothing substantial : the thing still is and forever stays what it is, the commenting out of the section does't undo the fact apache was designed so that part can go in there ; and similarily the fact that you hand-sewn your linux doesn't mean you got something other than a linux! That guy also built his Aro out of individually sourced parts rather than whole in a shop -- but the thing he got still was an Aro, rather than "his" Aro. You see what I mean ?

    > e.g. PHP is "free" to the folks who already have it set up and loaded into head

    We're only discussing "loaded into machine" here. We're not discussing the "loading into head" part, which is perhaps a very sound objection -- but is that what you're actually willing to raise ? "Folks, we'll have to end up with more code than absolutely necessary on machines because well... my head hurts", approx ?

    > I actually do not know it beyond kindergarten level.

    What other level is there ?

    Sure, I know it just fine, you look up the terms online and hack out the lines on that basis, line by line. I know python just as well, what the fuck is here to know, specifically ?

    @Diana Coman

    > I suppose the debate is more as to "what best to put in this here gaping hole since neither options are anyway what one would like to have"

    Something quite like that ; I dunno that I dislike posgres specifically for any reason (nor do I actually dislike mysql, either, for all the nonsense imo it's one of the few well engineered and well working products to ever come out of the erstwhile "foss" herpiderp effort) ; seems the major point of contention anyways is the scripting language specifics (which doesn't surprise me at all, come to think of it). But speaking of this, I'm vaguely curious now, are there any automated phppython translators ? Because I rather suspect they ougtha exist, in either bash or CL, for maxilulz.

    > And I suspect the differences in answers by different people are more often driven by how well/not well they know one or other fitting tool

    I very much propose this is wrong, by the way.

    > Re php I don't know if Apache is specifically married to php to that degree or is this a scripting-lang shaped hole too?

    This is where the hole in the very meaning of "scripting lang" is becoming apparent. The problem is this : lisp is a fucking scripting lang. Php ~isn't~. And Apache comes with a hole specifically for a scripting language that isn't, and specifically in the way these (neither python nor perl are at all different, lulz irrespective) aren't.

    > e.g. Ada-based (though equally bad-fit for munging strings but nevertheless, for completeness).

    I expect the ada sadness to rather come when trying to withstand DDoSen and such unhappiness.

  29. @Mircea Popescu #28 :

    I have the distinct impression (confirmed by your "so you found a giraffe to the left of the elephant" dismissal) that you're not particularly interested in the physical landscape, and already arrived at "Aristotelian" "Linux is for running PHP!" postulate. If from your POV my 20yrs of running it without any PHP, in various perfectly working applications, is "giraffe" -- what is there to be said in response ? Seems like you already have a verdict re "the essences". And looking for head-nods to support said verdict?

    > end up with more code than absolutely necessary

    FWIW my "pythonic horrors for www + bot" almost certainly weigh less (in loc, in compiled bin, in pseudocode, whatever measure you like) than "PHP www reader, Py bot" or most other currently proposed replacement. But is this interesting to you, or "giraffe" as soon as it doesn't fit the preconceived picture?

    > automated phppython translators ?

    I've never witnessed an autotranslator that doesn't emit garbage code in ~100% of cases. And this is for entirely fundamental reasons, I suspect.

    > neither python nor perl are at all different

    Very similar, but in the sense that gas-fired boiler and coal-fired are similar.

    > withstand DDoSen

    Most DDOS such as actually palpable, is headache at the level of the ~ip stack~ (if not upstream irons.) So won't make much diff. what userland softs are in use (unless the latter are extraordinarily uneconomical of CPU, as most PHP programs tend to be; in which case a 100 req/s already 'is felt as DDOS'.)

  30. Mircea Popescu`s avatar
    30
    Mircea Popescu 
    Tuesday, 3 September 2019

    @Stanislav Datskovskiy

    > I have the distinct impression that you're not particularly interested in the physical landscape,

    I'm interested, I'm interested. As long as it's physical rather than psychical.

    > If from your POV my 20yrs of running it without any PHP, in various perfectly working applications, is "giraffe" -- what is there to be said in response ?

    That's not what was said, at all. Your distinct impressions notwithstanding, I have the distinct impression you're not actually interacting with the text, for very specific reasons that I will now specify.

    I.1. You said "And works 100%. It's an interchangeable part in the example logger" ;

    I.2. I retorted "the giraffe was left of the elephant" because the fact that it [currently, ie today] works 100% [of the domain we think we tested, afaak] means relatively little. Tomorrow, it will no longer work, as was the case every single time with all of these -- both because they'll break the chain, and because we'll discover some edge case where it "inexplicably" and "nobody could have predictably" never actually worked.

    I.3. You misread this not only in the sense of failing to perceive the anchor, so rewriting "the happenstance you reported" with "your entire computing experience", but more concerningly in the sense of the relation contemplated, thus rewriting "element A's relative position to element B" into "you called me an element A". I transparently an' self-obviously picked giraffes and elephants to provide me with the nodes of a geometrical system that weren't in any danger of being confused with actual elements in the actual discussion, and in recognition of this effort you ran off and... applied an element from one set [some random collection] in the other set ?! Why the everloving fuck would you do this, what possible fucking sense does this make!

    II. What was said was that your personal use, for however long it might've occured, is not by itself some kind of mystical cornestone giving you priviledged relationship with the labelmaker. Conceivably there exists a guy somewhere who bought a car he's using as an electricity generator -- something pretty much any car on the market is capable of doing. This does not make his car "an electricity generator", it's still a car ; nor does 20 years' experience of using it in that particular manner change much -- for instance, if he leaves it on an incline without the parking brake engaged it'll roll over his fucking head just like any car (over his faint protestations that "this is just not what generators do!!!", of course). Your own history as perceptible's readily restatable as a long string of exactly this sort of misadventure, yet you aggro on me for pointing out that linux is what is, rather than "what you use it as" ? Holy hell man, the fucking car came out of a car plant making cars, the vast majority of cars are going about being cars, what the fuck do you want from this world ?!

    I'll leave the "omg, the bot in php" thing aside (because two is sufficient specification to warrant the plural, not because the offer's anywhere near exhausted), and now looky here : you gotta read what people say and think about what people say, rather than read what you think they probably said and think about what they probably said. Aite ?

    > Seems like you already have a verdict re "the essences"

    It's no verdict, it's merely notice an (admittedly elaborate) funny occurence -- the brokedness of the regexp approach engaged just as we were discussing it, it was lulzy, what can I say.

    > almost certainly weigh less

    Depends what you count. Flask is the size of Hutch. Stop lashing out and think things through, flask/sessions.py is 15kb just by itself. helpers.py is another 50kb. Who pays this bill, God ?

    > Most DDOS such as actually palpable, is headache at the level of the ~ip stack~

    We're not talking here of the legitimate aritcle, but of the "MP is an asshole" USG-empowered wannabes. There's a dozen or more of this later kind for the one of the former kind, and a weak stack therefore has the ability to magnify actual dos vulnerability by the same factor.

  31. > I very much propose this is wrong, by the way.
    It is? Do you mean that the opposite is true and expressed preferences actually match tool usefulness? Because there's that part where people write stuff in python (hence, python is good *for this task*) when it turns out that awk was better. I suppose I can see both cases i.e. given enough time and experience, people will have actually evaluated correctly the tools and chosen the best rather than "the one I know best so that I can get most out of" but I don't know how to tell when that point is reached really, unless there is some concrete evidence to support the preference.

    > are there any automated phppython translators ?
    I'm not aware of one that *actually works* beyond basic cases. Come to think of it, given the shiftness of python, it would be rather difficult too. This aside, I know of plenty of attempts i.e. there is plenty of code claiming to do the conversion python to/from php, yes.

  32. Mircea Popescu`s avatar
    32
    Mircea Popescu 
    Tuesday, 3 September 2019

    I propose it is wrong to go by own familiarity, is what I'm saying. Like in that old joke with the guy who mostly slept through medical school, ending up a doctor with only a foggy memory of one lecture on intestinal worms to keep him company, who then proceeded to give everyone vermifuge, even people who broke their arm. "But doctor, there's nothing wrong with my gut, it's my arm that's broken" "How did you break it ?" "I climbed the nut tree and then..." "Vezi, daca te-o mincat in cur ?"

  33. Ah, ah, of course it's wrong. I simply noted that this seems to be the case quite often nevertheless, hence I can't take expressed preferences by themselves to mean much about the tool.

  34. @Stanislav Datskovskiy #17:

    > it is an example logger!

    Sure, but from I understand, other people are starting to use it, and from what I remember it's (for now) still due to become the one logger for #trilema.

    > the problem is reasonably solvable

    My point is that it is, but at the cost of (not trivial to replace) requirements to get the thing running! And yes, these requirements include Python, gcc, kernel and all that other shit, some of which is easier to stand up, some of which isn't. I myself am guilty of the sin of genesizing feedbot without adding cl-irc in the tree, feedparse without dependencies (among which: Drakma, which itself is a non-trivial piece!), and as soon as someone decides to use my code, they'll pay a cost for this choice of mine.

    > Please do throw it out! and replace with proper logger.

    FWIW, I'd be happy to replace it with a *decent* logger, I'm learning much of this stuff as it comes. We'll see.

    @Diana Coman #18:

    > Also, there's II.a. but no II.b. or I just don't see it?

    Hence my point above, why not add Flask to that list? It might be a piece of shit of epic proportions, but Stan's logger is using it, so as far as everyone involved knows, it works.

    @Stanislav Datskovskiy #21:

    > IMHO the correct pill is to bake the minimal scripting lang described earlier.

    I think I mentioned this somewhere else, but: the problem with "minimal scripting lang" is that it (or perhaps only programs written in it, I don't know yet) will have to import notions of TCP and HTTP, and when it does this my guess it'll become quite heavy -- again, how heavy, I've no idea. I can't say I'm qualified to make a proper estimation, I haven't worked on a similar thing before, but IMHO this thought experiment is worth doing before some hero sets out on this adventure.

    @Mircea Popescu #22:

    > It's one of those things that are easy to say and in practice impossible to actually do.

    I was thinking along the lines of freezing a mirror of the portage tree, which, although not quite the proper genesis it oughta be, at least would keep the L1 safe in 2021, when what now passes as "main Gentoo" will probably be 99% liquishit.

    I'm not sure it's a rsync away either, and whether it's worth dropping the work I'm doing now to get this done, so just wondering if there is any merit at all to this idea.

    > What does this mean ?
    >
    > [...]
    >
    > But no girl since the invention of girlyhood has yet been married to a non-Joe

    Hm. When I uttered "non-LAMP" I had in mind that ideal item that both a. completely and properly fulfills the tasks of a LAMP; and b. exposes a sane interface and has sane, legible blueprints/code, which don't drive the thinking man to insanity as he reads them. I suspect there's currently some (b) in the current LAMP implementation, but judging by the fact that most (all?) of it is written in C and by how PHP looks, I'm expecting to find some horrors in there. I'd be happy to be wrong, but we're having this discussion, so I'm guessing I'm not (entirely).

    In any case, I was thinking that it should be possible for sane men to rewrite everything from scratch and to arrive at something qualitatively superior to the current Linux "ecosystem". On the other hand, it's also (conceivably) possible for the current Linux (or the one before the wreckers started wrecking it, I guess) to be the best possible implementation, which would make that "non-LAMP" an exercise in futility. I don't know, I'm just thinking out loud.

    > So perhaps LAMP fares better than "average"

    It very likely does, inasmuch as we're discussing the LAMP from 2011, not the one from 2019. So perhaps it's worth genesizing it (where it = the one from 2011) regardless of whether the P will turn out later to be Python or Stan's scriptlang, or whether the M will turn out to be Postgre.

    So I dunno, I guess we're in agreement here?

    > You're contradicting yourself, and what's worse : you're perhaps saying the standard is fucked in the head.

    From what I understand, CL (the standard) was made "să împace și capra și varza", i.e. to accommodate multiple Lisp implementations at the time. So yes, there are certainly shitty parts, and worse, some CL folks tend to use e.g. the Perl-Compatible Regex library for applications where a proper parser would be the right thing.

    > Which directly leads to this article : if there's a choice between atrocious eddas, take the set with the least possible cardinal.

    Reading the following comments, it occurs to me that much of the disagreement stems from different measures for this cardinal. IMHO the LAMP stack is the right thing, judging strictly from the point of view of time-tested reliability. I'm not sure wut do regarding the other items, e.g. Stan did prototype a logger in record time using Python&Flask, while the Lisp stuff... dunno, it's certainly worth preserving for historical value, but other than that?

  35. Mircea Popescu`s avatar
    35
    Mircea Popescu 
    Tuesday, 3 September 2019

    > so as far as everyone involved knows, it works.

    It doesn't fucking work to any standard, if you're curious stand it up on some toilet box as the http server, spend 5 bux to "buy traffic online" or w/e other method to get the botverse to notice it, and then watch what happens.

    > just wondering if there is any merit at all to this idea.

    In plain terms -- I have no fucking idea.

    > properly fulfills the tasks of a LAMP

    To repeat the point : "a lamp" is not a thing that has tasks, it's a thing that evolved into a certain niche out of the swamp. There's no possibility of thinking of balto bion in terms of zoon politikon, they're just different things, nor never will an ought flow from an is.

    > I was thinking that it should be possible for sane men to rewrite everything from scratch and to arrive at something qualitatively superior to the current Linux "ecosystem"

    Go, rewrite frogs. What are you, a latter day Aristophanes ?!

    If rewritten, it'd be, however satisfying, correct, useful etcetera -- also incomparable. Contrary to long standing pretense, current "ecosystem" was not written, but shat out (and for maximal amusement, the "writing" conceit similarly exists re supposed "words" the hunchback demiurge / original father of all these morons still reserving them a place in his celestial kingdom spoke to produce the world -- yet even casual examination of realia betrays no such wonder as speech ever lay behind phenomena ; there was no "divine word", more like iliterate grunts and barbarbar).

    > for the current Linux (or the one before the wreckers started wrecking it, I guess)

    The sadness here is this : they didn't wreck it. They just helped it express itself -- much like the dudes gangbanging the 17yo in your back yard aren't "runing daddy's princess" but merely providing the physical support upon which she's manifesting into reality what always laid latent inside, the flies didn't corrupt the cutlets, they just accomplished them. This, I fear, is the deep reason "everything turns to shit once the herd's attention turns to it" phenomena we've observed : it's not that the herd somehow magically has the ability to turn wine to vinegar ; it's that the only reason you hadn't noticed it's vinegar before is that you always and very carefully used it only certain ways, and only a little bit altogether.

    > to be the best possible implementation

    What is this "best possible implementation" ?

    A space of possibilities will be searched. This is a given. The space will be vast, and the search slow. This is also a given. Now, organic search or conceptual search ? They won't get the same results in principle, no matter what you do or how you do it, the argument isn't that "a frog is the best creature / swamp thing that ever could be". There isn't such a thing. The argument is that the frog indeed survives, is all.

    What is "the best frog" ? What's "a better frog than a salamander" ?

    > not the one from 2019

    To be perfectly clear, nobody's even vaguely considering anything since ~poettering's generation of fucktards. Python is 2.x, gcc is 4.x, and so on.

    > So I dunno, I guess we're in agreement here?

    Prolly.

    > Stan did prototype a logger in record time using Python&Flask

    Indeed, and it was quite impressive to watch!

  36. @Mircea Popescu #35 :

    > get the botverse to notice it

    FWIW "botverse" already noticed (just as long ago noticed Phuctor.)

    It doesn't fall down. (If hit at line rate, naturally will be waiting a spell before you get a page load. But proggy remains standing, no hand-cranked intervention is at any point required.)

    Of all the various traditional headaches of WWWism, there is at least this one that is absent in this particular kludge.

  37. Mircea Popescu`s avatar
    37
    Mircea Popescu 
    Tuesday, 3 September 2019

    I thought you had nginx in front of the flask ?

  38. @Mircea Popescu #37:

    Indeed. Never yet observed Nginx, itself, to fall, however. (In early -- i.e. pre-'16 -- Phuctor era -- it was always the ~py proggy~ which fell. But even this, not once since implemented proper DB indices & eggog handling.)

    In so far as I currently have seen (incl. "reddit storm", several sundry ddos, etc) item handles req's at the rate permitted by pipe width. (Also will happily swallow arbitrary garbage in the URLs, params, search box, but this has ~0 to do with the materials of which it is made, but simply from writing it correctly. Contrary to popular belief, this part is not difficult.)

  39. Mircea Popescu`s avatar
    39
    Mircea Popescu 
    Tuesday, 3 September 2019

    How the fuck does this have anything to do with what we're discussing.

    "You think cheese is a building material, build a doghouse or something out of it and see." "I built sandwich" "Outdoors ?" "No, in my fridge."

    Wtf already.

  40. @Mircea Popescu #39 :

    "I built this-here bridge and 300 t34 rolled over it, it still stands. if you like, go roll 9000 'tigers' over it" ""You think cheese is a building material, build a doghouse..." -- wtf?

  41. Mircea Popescu`s avatar
    41
    Mircea Popescu 
    Tuesday, 3 September 2019

    We were discussing flask as a webserver. Seriously now, lay off it, tigers indeed.

  42. @Mircea Popescu / 35:

    > the only reason you hadn't noticed it's vinegar before is that you always and very carefully used it only certain ways

    This also I find unpersuasive in re subj, even if strictly physically correct. Per same logic, the "true final form" of your oiled wooden spoon -- is a handful of ash; of the Mercedes -- molden pile of scrap. And of planet3 -- a ball of ice, once Sol burns out. Of what interest are these "true forms" ?

  43. @Mircea Popescu / 41:

    "Flask" and similar items if used as "naked" www server would suck balls -- single thread.

  44. Mircea Popescu`s avatar
    44
    Mircea Popescu 
    Wednesday, 4 September 2019

    Look, the question was "why not add flask to the list", and the answer was "because it sucks". We're back to that after this excursion.

    Re the true forms : what you say is true ; the utility of the mental exercise lies, I hope, in exactly that understanding : that "true form", whether mercedes, planet or code, is ~an abstraction~ rather than a thing. It's not a thing.

  45. I've written large webturds in both Python and PHP (not to mention Ruby), and I can't see much of a difference on the dev environment side of things. Moreover I welcome and support the drive towards "GET OVER YOURSELVES, they're all shot through, just pick the smallest set you can use". I'd like to see this principle applied as broadly as possible, and have been running my own experiments over here re: living in busybox and other muntzings.

    I've used the Python "app servers" one needs to stick behind apache to perform well; they're complicated and brittle. You end up with nginx + appserver (uwsgi or w/e) + pywad. The smallest working set - and therefore most likely to end up in anyone's head any time soon - is most likely to be Apache and mod_php.

  46. This thinking has got me thinking. Now that I have a mirror of alf's logotron up I think I will start to explore converting teh "reader.py" portions to php; get rid of the flask dependence at least. Hopefully we can start answer some questions that way.

  47. Mircea Popescu`s avatar
    47
    Mircea Popescu 
    Thursday, 5 September 2019

    I'm really curious to see the same, moderately non-trivial program, written out in both langs (hence my q above re autotranslators). I think the comparative approach will prove most informative.

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