Forum logs for 31 Oct 2012

Saturday, 23 November, Year 11 d.Tr. | Author: Mircea Popescu

jurov	like 1CoinBr662GWdiqVz8mXJUnYjWZbBchKAb ?	[00:01]
jurov	but i need one per user anyway	[00:01]
thestringpuller	will that bid wall on mpoe have an effect?	[00:10]
jurov	oh that..... iirc it's put there by mircea himself, long time ago	[00:12]
*	UncleScrooge (~UncleScro@199.26.85.34) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[00:12]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7557 @ 0.00045842 = 3.4643 BTC [-]	[00:20]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24043 @ 0.00045819 = 11.0163 BTC [-]	[00:20]
jurov	*it's been put there is moar correct, no?	[00:20]
thestringpuller	no the smaller one	[00:22]
thestringpuller	.00044939 @ sell depth ~ 1m	[00:23]
thestringpuller	people are selling into the wall	[00:23]
jurov	goodnight..have to wake early	[00:25]
*	mircea_popescu reads up	[00:30]
mircea_popescu	jurov you have a data cap ?	[00:30]
thestringpuller	mircea_popescu: you crazy romanian	[00:31]
mircea_popescu	hallo	[00:33]
mircea_popescu	;;ticker	[00:35]
gribble	BTCUSD ticker \| Best bid: 10.75104, Best ask: 10.84000, Bid-ask spread: 0.08896, Last trade: 10.84000, 24 hour volume: 24221.65679096, 24 hour low: 10.58000, 24 hour high: 10.85000, 24 hour vwap: 10.73588	[00:35]
mircea_popescu	o headed back to 11 ?	[00:35]
*	copumpkin turns it up to 11	[00:37]
mircea_popescu	lol	[00:39]
thestringpuller	mircea_popescu: if i visit romania can we hang out and go to romanian strip clubs?	[00:40]
mircea_popescu	http://polimedia.us/dtng/c/src/134621792179.jpg butt at 11.	[00:40]
mircea_popescu	thestringpuller maybe.	[00:40]
pigeons	no strip clubs in romania yet, but mircea's has a sister	[00:40]
pigeons	#1 in all of romanistan	[00:41]
thestringpuller	mircea_popescu: so option prices will decline as the month closes?	[00:42]
mircea_popescu	yes.	[00:42]
mircea_popescu	option price has a time component	[00:42]
thestringpuller	it feels like tehy are most effective at the end of the month...	[00:43]
copumpkin	thestringpuller: most effective?	[00:43]
thestringpuller	best to buy...	[00:43]
mircea_popescu	maybe	[00:43]
copumpkin	assuming he doesn't have a silly strategy, they're probably no better to buy	[00:43]
copumpkin	unless there's external information that he hasn't factored in	[00:44]
thestringpuller	the only reason my options paid off was the price was low during a price swap	[00:44]
thestringpuller	timing is the key factor...	[00:44]
mircea_popescu	nobody succeeds in timing the market.	[00:44]
copumpkin	it sure gets wannabe traders' rocks off though	[00:45]
mircea_popescu	true	[00:45]
copumpkin	best let people think they can	[00:45]
thestringpuller	not 100% of the time	[00:45]
copumpkin	the time is irrelevant	[00:45]
copumpkin	you want more than 50% of the money ;)	[00:45]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6500 @ 0.00045868 = 2.9814 BTC [+]	[00:45]
mircea_popescu	this has been the greatest fallacy in economics. the notion that human agency can improve the end results.	[00:45]
mircea_popescu	in fact hedge funds consistently underperform indexes.	[00:45]
copumpkin	except for a couple :)	[00:46]
mircea_popescu	ya, except for a couple : one that doesn't try to time and another that got there by accident.	[00:46]
copumpkin	:P	[00:46]
mircea_popescu	:p	[00:46]
mod6	haha	[00:47]
thestringpuller	what do they use instead of timing?	[00:48]
mircea_popescu	copumpkin i particularly enjoy the fact that all sorts of imbecile "economists" explain how vulnerable bitcoin is to "well established strategies"	[00:48]
mircea_popescu	and then i fail to see them raping bitcoin on mpex with those "well established" strategies of theirs.	[00:48]
copumpkin	duuude, just look at the charts	[00:48]
copumpkin	I'mma draw a fibonacci spiral	[00:48]
mircea_popescu	right-o	[00:48]
mod6	http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-09-22/peak-career-risk-only-8-hedge-funds-are-outperforming-market	[00:48]
copumpkin	I'll invite you to my yacht later	[00:48]
thestringpuller	mircea_popescu: what strategy would you use? or is it a trade secret?	[00:49]
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mircea_popescu	"Bitcoin takes the monetary system back essentially a hundred years. We know how to beat that system. In fact, we know how to nuke it for profit"	[00:49]
mircea_popescu	and yet...	[00:49]
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mircea_popescu	thestringpuller i use the strategy of "try to build useful things"	[00:50]
copumpkin	mod6: where do they get their data?	[00:51]
copumpkin	oh, from that chart from GS	[00:51]
mircea_popescu	sloppy 2nds	[00:51]
mod6	copumpkin: here's another i just found: http://www.efinancialnews.com/story/2012-07-10/hfr-h1-hedge-funds-first-half-performance	[00:52]
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mod6	anyway, its been widly reported this year -- just seaching on google for stuff.	[00:53]
thestringpuller	build useful things?	[00:54]
mircea_popescu	anyway, the massacre hedge funds are suffering at the hands of a compeltely imaginary stock market is really sad.	[00:54]
mircea_popescu	they should be rewarded for their prudence not punished for not having been dumb enough to play bernanke	[00:54]
copumpkin	mod6: oh, I was just looking for a list of who was doing better	[00:55]
mod6	oh my bad. :)	[00:55]
mod6	here's another one:	[00:58]
mod6	“Hedge funds are up 3.04% year-to-date as of September, 2012, compared to 13.97% for the S&P 500,” said Mary Ann Bartels, technical research analyst at Bank of America Merrill Lynch.	[00:58]
mod6	“This ranks as the third worst relative performance for Q1-Q3 since our records begin in 1994, following 1995’s 12.8% and 1997’s 11%.”	[00:58]
mod6	http://business.financialpost.com/2012/10/01/relative-hedge-fund-returns-worst-since-1997/	[00:58]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9100 @ 0.00045868 = 4.174 BTC [+]	[01:01]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31900 @ 0.00045931 = 14.652 BTC [+]	[01:01]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18680 @ 0.00046598 = 8.7045 BTC [+]	[01:01]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8583 @ 0.00046708 = 4.0089 BTC [+]	[01:01]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4000 @ 0.000468 = 1.872 BTC [+]	[01:01]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5700 @ 0.00046805 = 2.6679 BTC [+]	[01:01]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39900 @ 0.00046864 = 18.6987 BTC [+]	[01:01]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12100 @ 0.00046909 = 5.676 BTC [+]	[01:01]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14500 @ 0.00046956 = 6.8086 BTC [+]	[01:01]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42025 @ 0.00046956 = 19.7333 BTC [+]	[01:02]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8959 @ 0.00046965 = 4.2076 BTC [+]	[01:02]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5800 @ 0.0004705 = 2.7289 BTC [+]	[01:02]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16500 @ 0.00047103 = 7.772 BTC [+]	[01:02]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7800 @ 0.00047186 = 3.6805 BTC [+]	[01:02]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44300 @ 0.00047269 = 20.9402 BTC [+]	[01:02]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28900 @ 0.00047316 = 13.6743 BTC [+]	[01:02]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1157 @ 0.00047992 = 0.5553 BTC [+]	[01:02]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 700096 @ 0.00048 = 336.0461 BTC [+]	[01:02]
mod6	rally	[01:02]
mircea_popescu	o wow it was 45 ?	[01:02]
mircea_popescu	then again... october was a pretty darn shitty month.	[01:03]
mircea_popescu	mpoe made a wash, s.dice i guess will report its first loss ?	[01:03]
smickles	well, if people value mpex in terms of usd, a drop in usd/btc should mean s.mpoe rally	[01:05]
smickles	with a little lag, it seems	[01:05]
mircea_popescu	why would people value mpex in terms of usd ?	[01:06]
thestringpuller	btc/usd value is on the rise	[01:06]
thestringpuller	mircea_popescu: you can get more shares for your btc	[01:06]
smickles	;;ticker	[01:06]
gribble	BTCUSD ticker \| Best bid: 10.81400, Best ask: 10.81999, Bid-ask spread: 0.00599, Last trade: 10.82000, 24 hour volume: 24414.81850755, 24 hour low: 10.58000, 24 hour high: 10.85000, 24 hour vwap: 10.73950	[01:06]
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thestringpuller	in terms of usd	[01:07]
mircea_popescu	i still don't see it.	[01:08]
mircea_popescu	i mean, i guess some do, but	[01:08]
smickles	mircea_popescu: It might be justifiable for someone with net worth which is mostly tied up in usd to value even things like MPEx in usd	[01:09]
mircea_popescu	like a convenience thing ?	[01:09]
smickles	convenience could be one reason. relatedly, maybe they can only 'think' in terms of usd	[01:10]
mircea_popescu	aka convenience. maybe so.	[01:11]
smickles	or they see it as an investment where they want a return in usd terms, they don't care about btc value fluctuations	[01:11]
mircea_popescu	ya i guess if they do that then weakening of btc/usd is actually buy signal for s.mpoe	[01:12]
mircea_popescu	as in, "get more shares of the same company for the same usd"	[01:12]
smickles	exactly	[01:12]
mircea_popescu	then lag would measure their usd -> btc -> mpex latency	[01:12]
smickles	additionally, their awareness	[01:13]
mircea_popescu	ya. like 24 hours, that's not too bad	[01:13]
mircea_popescu	https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=121158.0 i coulda sworn somebody was doing this exactly	[01:14]
smickles	yeah jjjimy or whatever his name is	[01:15]
mircea_popescu	nah	[01:16]
smickles	or did he get taken out in some way?	[01:16]
mircea_popescu	of the old guys	[01:16]
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smickles	your sec sigline seems to be getting good exposure (for the forum)	[01:17]
mircea_popescu	it certainly seems to have broken the psychosis.	[01:18]
thestringpuller	mircea_popescu: whats next?	[01:26]
mircea_popescu	who knows ?	[01:27]
thestringpuller	you do	[01:28]
thestringpuller	mr. illuminati	[01:28]
thestringpuller	i bet you manipulate the markets	[01:28]
thestringpuller	lol jk	[01:28]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18970 @ 0.00046037 = 8.7332 BTC [-]	[01:28]
mircea_popescu	and also slept with pirate's hot sister	[01:28]
smickles	http://polimedia.us/bitcoin/mpex.php?mpsic=B.MPCD.C	[01:29]
smickles	lol	[01:29]
mircea_popescu	heh	[01:30]
mircea_popescu	"he also lied about having an OTC rating at the time if the transaction to get me to send first. I was knew and didn't know what OCT was then and was desperate for money so I foolishly agreed."	[01:30]
smickles	at least it isn't a buy order	[01:30]
mircea_popescu	people should buy moar grammer	[01:31]
smickles	wow, i'ven't the mind to understand that	[01:32]
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mircea_popescu	"I thought genjix had to eat catfood + bits of newspaper cause he was so poor ?" 0.0	[01:38]
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mircea_popescu	o also, f.giga.etf going away on dec 1st, if anyone missed it earlier	[01:50]
mircea_popescu	https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=121308.0	[01:50]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 900 @ 0.00045982 = 0.4138 BTC [-]	[01:54]
*	Perlboy has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)	[01:55]
mircea_popescu	;;ticker	[01:56]
gribble	BTCUSD ticker \| Best bid: 10.80101, Best ask: 10.88754, Bid-ask spread: 0.08653, Last trade: 10.80100, 24 hour volume: 25732.98766624, 24 hour low: 10.58000, 24 hour high: 10.89000, 24 hour vwap: 10.75200	[01:56]
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BTC-Mining	What if the information is released at a later date?	[02:02]
mircea_popescu	i guess the proceeds get donated.	[02:03]
BTC-Mining	=/	[02:03]
mircea_popescu	what can i tell you.	[02:04]
mircea_popescu	it's been a month already. november is another month. how much later than that ? 2014 ?	[02:04]
*	tbcoin (~tbcoin@firewall-sistemas.idecnet.com) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[02:04]
BTC-Mining	Well maybe not.	[02:05]
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BTC-Mining	But seeing as he sent payments (the good amounts) to many and it's not completed after one month, it doesn't look like he lost the database. But he's been incredibly slow.	[02:06]
mircea_popescu	irl dividends are paid yearly. in bitcoin people expect weekly, some even daily. monthly is considered VERY rarely.	[02:06]
mircea_popescu	yet when it comes to booking losses... nobody thinks o look, five weeks that's five irl years	[02:07]
BTC-Mining	So if he releases data, I would doubt it would happen by December 1st	[02:07]
mircea_popescu	really ?	[02:07]
BTC-Mining	really what?	[02:07]
mircea_popescu	i think it's much like missing persons. those not found in twoo weeks are never found.	[02:07]
BTC-Mining	Yes, but it's not like Nefario disappeared without any news with everything.	[02:10]
BTC-Mining	If one day, the website had suddenly disappeared along with Nefario, that would be acceptable.	[02:11]
mircea_popescu	well... the way these things work is that there's some communication originally... but nothing comes of it.	[02:11]
mircea_popescu	bitcoinica's still not paid. people still entertain the notion they will get something back, obviously, but it's been what, half a year.	[02:11]
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BTC-Mining	But Nefario paid many people so far =/	[02:12]
mircea_popescu	bitfloor... went down, guy asked for our help, now he's gone.	[02:12]
mircea_popescu	BTC-Mining paid some people originally. that was weeks ago. then he stopped payng, and now his site is gone.	[02:12]
mircea_popescu	(in fact, it may well be argued nefario stole the few k btc he had of glbse money, then insisted theymos return the few hundred he held, then used that to pay SOME people and end of story there)	[02:13]
BTC-Mining	Last 2 statements seems innaccurate.	[02:13]
mircea_popescu	did he pay more than what theymos held ?	[02:14]
mircea_popescu	i recall you had a thread about it	[02:14]
BTC-Mining	Apparently, a lot more.	[02:14]
mircea_popescu	how much does it all add up to, got al ink handy ?	[02:15]
BTC-Mining	From only declared claims which are a lot fewer than the payment chains seen those claims are included in.	[02:15]
BTC-Mining	Let me fetch that	[02:15]
mircea_popescu	nm found it	[02:15]
mircea_popescu	i see ~1300 btc ? (why not add a TOTAL at the end ?)	[02:16]
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BTC-Mining	Not a bad idea	[02:16]
mircea_popescu	but anyway, a key consideration is that those shareholder lists are only useful early on. they decay so to speak	[02:17]
BTC-Mining	But claims are included in payment chains for much larger amounts. It is yet to see if users received all of those without more claims.	[02:18]
mircea_popescu	suppsoe i have a 1k btc payment in my wallet (and it's all i have)	[02:19]
mircea_popescu	if i pay you 100 btc, is it right that my program takes 100 btc to your address and 900 btc to another address of mine ?	[02:19]
BTC-Mining	Yup	[02:19]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16457 @ 0.00045819 = 7.5404 BTC [-]	[02:20]
mircea_popescu	so...	[02:20]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5243 @ 0.00045799 = 2.4012 BTC [-]	[02:20]
BTC-Mining	Should be like that, considering that's how bitcoin transactions work...	[02:20]
mircea_popescu	much more importantly tho, were all the payments sorta early oct ?	[02:20]
BTC-Mining	Mid october. Had been over a week.	[02:21]
mircea_popescu	mk	[02:21]
mircea_popescu	so what makes you think that the lists will be released, but after december ?	[02:21]
BTC-Mining	At least for mine. I was one of the first paid out I think.	[02:22]
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BTC-Mining	Because since Nefario did not disappear with the funds, I still believe it is in the "realm of probable" that he'll release the information, and not in the "realm of possible"	[02:24]
mircea_popescu	ok, so you believe he'll release it	[02:25]
mircea_popescu	but why wouyld it take another month ?	[02:26]
BTC-Mining	You know how it was. Nefario would say he'd have a new feature released next week and end up completing it 2 month laters.	[02:26]
mircea_popescu	you gotta be kidding me	[02:26]
BTC-Mining	He also managed to screw up payments on the 16th	[02:26]
BTC-Mining	and he seems to want to send all balances out before then giving the addresses to issuers.	[02:27]
mircea_popescu	so when exactly do you expect the shareholder lists to be released ?	[02:27]
BTC-Mining	Somewhere in the next weeks to 3 months	[02:28]
BTC-Mining	After that I'd probably start to assume he managed to lose the database after closing GLBSE	[02:29]
mircea_popescu	mk, so wanna bet the shareholder lists aren't released by feb 1st ?	[02:30]
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BTC-Mining	feb 1st? I'd bet you 5 BTC it is released by then. (For those who submitted their information, not in full.)	[02:32]
mircea_popescu	what were decent-ish assets there ? giga, asicminer and what'd be a third ?	[02:34]
BTC-Mining	Bitbond	[02:35]
kakobrekla	so who is going to escrow the bet	[02:35]
BTC-Mining	and quite a few lowball mining operations	[02:35]
BTC-Mining	Mutual trust?	[02:35]
BTC-Mining	Unless mircea wants an escrow for this one.	[02:36]
mircea_popescu	mkay. so " by feb 1st more than half the shareholders are reinstated in at least two of gigamining, asicminer, bitbond as a result of nefario releasing the lists to the respective asset owners"	[02:36]
mircea_popescu	is our bet.	[02:36]
mircea_popescu	works for you ?	[02:36]
BTC-Mining	I have no idea what proportion of holders gave their info to be sent to issuer. I would go more by the lack of complaints that some submitted their info and weren't included in the list sent to issuer.	[02:38]
mircea_popescu	hm	[02:39]
mircea_popescu	but i mean... if not even half the shareholders are reinstated the thing is moot anyway	[02:40]
mircea_popescu	might as well not have happened	[02:40]
BTC-Mining	Yes, but if the contact information was not given, it's impossible to release that info to issuers anyway. But technically, that means Nefario would have released the full list if he could have done so, so theorically, it would be done.	[02:41]
BTC-Mining	Let's say, if any of gigamining, asicminer or bitbond have together a total of at least 2 or more complaints from members with 50+ posts that they submitted their info but are not included in the released list, or the information for any of those 3 asset is not released at all by February 1st, it shall be deamed the information was not released.	[02:42]
mircea_popescu	well so theoretically he's done it already ><	[02:42]
mircea_popescu	ok, i guess i can go with that for 5 btc	[02:42]
BTC-Mining	No, because he received the contact information from an unkown amount of persons but no issuers were forwarded that info. So even theorically, he has not released the data.	[02:43]
mircea_popescu	im mostly curious to find what exact way does nefario find to both fuck up in some entirely unexpected novel way and also render this bet moot in one fell swoop	[02:44]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26700 @ 0.00045799 = 12.2283 BTC [-]	[02:45]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19867 @ 0.00045982 = 9.1352 BTC [+]	[02:46]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12000 @ 0.00046388 = 5.5666 BTC [+]	[02:46]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24733 @ 0.00046502 = 11.5013 BTC [+]	[02:46]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43400 @ 0.0004657 = 20.2114 BTC [+]	[02:46]
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BTC-Mining	He'll accidentally provoke a vacuum metastability event, resulting in a stabler state propagating throughout the Universe at the speed of light, defining new constants for the laws of physics, rendering all Earth and its matter... different.	[02:50]
BTC-Mining	Rendering everything seen by humans pretty much meaningless.	[02:50]
BTC-Mining	Including the bet.	[02:50]
BTC-Mining	How does that sound?	[02:50]
dub	wat	[02:51]
mircea_popescu	that sounds muchly exaggerated.	[02:51]
BTC-Mining	Yes. It is.	[02:52]
BTC-Mining	It's the most blown out of proportion screw up someone could do.	[02:53]
mircea_popescu	i would guess he just mixes the shareholder tables	[02:53]
mircea_popescu	sends company 1 list for company 2	[02:54]
BTC-Mining	eh, I'd consider that as information not released.	[02:54]
BTC-Mining	As the correct issuer would not have the correct information.	[02:54]
mircea_popescu	ya but he wouldn't know this	[02:55]
mircea_popescu	and seeing how there's maybe a coupla dozen actual people with actual investments	[02:55]
mircea_popescu	and they mostly held everything, being re	[02:55]
BTC-Mining	That he knows matter not. Just that each issuer receives all the information Nefario was aware of, and that they have the correct information.	[02:56]
mircea_popescu	being rearranged aroung might not even be noticed	[02:56]
BTC-Mining	Since AML was not required and the majority probably claimed...	[02:57]
BTC-Mining	I would doubt it would go unnoticed.	[02:57]
BTC-Mining	The total amount of shares vary a lot.	[02:57]
BTC-Mining	From one issue to the other.	[02:58]
mircea_popescu	well ok then	[02:58]
BTC-Mining	Plus some people would certainly they got shares of X instead of Y.	[02:58]
BTC-Mining	Some might not complain... but many would.	[02:58]
BTC-Mining	I'm sure the outcome will be very clear.	[02:58]
BTC-Mining	oh, and dub	[03:00]
BTC-Mining	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_vacuum	[03:00]
mircea_popescu	Barack Obama will be re-elected as the president of USA	[03:00]
mircea_popescu	955.94 347.20	[03:00]
mircea_popescu	Mitt Romney will be elected President of the USA	[03:00]
mircea_popescu	80.90 227.78	[03:00]
mircea_popescu	;;calc 227.78 / 80.9	[03:01]
gribble	2.81557478368	[03:01]
mircea_popescu	;;calc 955.94/347.20	[03:01]
gribble	2.75328341014	[03:01]
*	Perlboy (~Perlboy@unaffiliated/perlboy) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[03:03]
BTC-Mining	But really, what bothers me is not the delisting (and trading stopping, which would be appropriate), but the complete deletion of data. The ETF has no terms reserving yourself the right to arbitrarily void the obligation.	[03:05]
BTC-Mining	I would expect the obligation to be honored, wether the assets resurface in 1 day or 2 years.	[03:06]
BTC-Mining	Keeping the data aside doesn't cost much logistically.	[03:07]
mircea_popescu	well, it is kept aside if you keep your stats.	[03:07]
mircea_popescu	mpex isn't designed to be a sort of glbse	[03:08]
*	midnightmagic has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)	[03:09]
*	midnightmagic (~midnightm@unaffiliated/midnightmagic) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[03:09]
BTC-Mining	Hmm, but the data does exist. Wouldn't a simple backup of the tables containing the data for the ETF be enough?	[03:10]
mircea_popescu	enough for what tho ?	[03:10]
BTC-Mining	To reinstate it should it become possible.	[03:11]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24400 @ 0.00046534 = 11.3543 BTC [-]	[03:12]
mircea_popescu	nah, if it doesn't come to its senses by dec 1st it's not getting reinstated.	[03:12]
mircea_popescu	some direct thing, maybe, but glbse shares, no.	[03:12]
BTC-Mining	That's the thing, they would be direct shares with Gigamining should the information be released.	[03:13]
BTC-Mining	not GLBSE shares	[03:13]
mircea_popescu	basically, the reasoning is this : there was a company organised to finance a ship sent to wherever.	[03:14]
mircea_popescu	that ship was lost at sea	[03:14]
mircea_popescu	if it's not heard from in X time, the company is dissolved as worthless.	[03:14]
BTC-Mining	Gigavps keeps track of all payments due and if information is released, will pay all what is due.	[03:14]
BTC-Mining	The "company" is neither lost, or getting dissolved.	[03:15]
mircea_popescu	the etf held glbse shares.	[03:15]
mircea_popescu	that's the ship.	[03:15]
mircea_popescu	sure, the concept of spices, or the concept of cargo, or the ship's destination still exists.	[03:15]
mircea_popescu	but the ship itself is lost at sea.	[03:16]
BTC-Mining	The ship's location is known. Who the cargo is to be delivered to is not known.	[03:16]
BTC-Mining	GLBSE simply either hasn't released who had how many shares.	[03:16]
mircea_popescu	but glbse.com is no longer responding, is it.	[03:17]
BTC-Mining	Nefario still talked to a few people recently. But doesn't answer publicly or to support requests.	[03:17]
mircea_popescu	not what i said tho.	[03:18]
mircea_popescu	glbse.com is no longer responding, the website itself.	[03:18]
BTC-Mining	Probably because they consist on thousands upon thousands of tickets looking like: "I haven't received my balance yet. Why?"	[03:18]
BTC-Mining	Ah, GLBSE.com	[03:18]
mircea_popescu	yes. so no, the ship's location is not known.	[03:18]
mircea_popescu	it USED to be known.	[03:18]
mircea_popescu	and back when it still was known, we were still waiting.	[03:18]
BTC-Mining	I don't see how GLBSE is the ship. The ship is Gigavps's mining operation.	[03:19]
mircea_popescu	well that's an incorrect representation. obviously it may be convenient, but it's not the case.	[03:19]
mircea_popescu	the etf held glbse shares, nothing else.	[03:19]
BTC-Mining	Your IPO technically states: "The owner of this ETF holds 900 perpetual 5.0Mh/s bonds (details), "	[03:20]
BTC-Mining	Not GLBSE shares, GIGAMINING mining bonds.	[03:20]
kakobrekla	the ship is sailing in milk.	[03:20]
mircea_popescu	there's sufficient reference to "owning shares" to satisfy this point.	[03:20]
mircea_popescu	lol kakobrekla	[03:21]
BTC-Mining	The shares were traded on GLBSE. But GLBSE was never the ship. It never mined or produced the returns. It was merely sending the ship where it was to be delivered. Now the ship doesn't know where to go.	[03:23]
mircea_popescu	The shares were traded on GLBSE. But GLBSE was never the ship. << what's this, cognitive dissonance 101 ?	[03:23]
BTC-Mining	Because GLBSE was never the shares or represented them, they were merely a platform to exchange the bonds.	[03:24]
mircea_popescu	this is not true.	[03:24]
mircea_popescu	this is true of mpex, yes, because mpex is correctly designed	[03:24]
mircea_popescu	not the case of glbse however.	[03:25]
mircea_popescu	with glbse, nefario == glbse == the shares. there's no way to actually make these distinctions you'd like	[03:25]
mircea_popescu	sure, they're desperately needed, but unfortunately did not exist.	[03:25]
kakobrekla	I think Pirates like Goats Milk.	[03:26]
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*	BurtW (ada43541@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.164.53.65) has left #bitcoin-assets	[03:29]
*	sgornick (~steve@unaffiliated/sgornick) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[03:30]
BTC-Mining	What you're saying sounds like if my broker, after the NYSE let's say is hit by a meteor and trading is halted, coming to me to say he has no news of when it will come back and that holders data might or might not be lost, possibly never to come back and says "You have to let go." (said in a very comforting voice, patting you on the shoulder, with a grin on his face), because obviously	[03:31]
BTC-Mining	the traded company and their stock don't exist without the stock exchange. So he'll delete all his records of which stocks that he held in my name because he consider the ship lost at see. And if data comes back: "Oh sorry. Can't give you anything, I don't have records showing what I owe you."	[03:31]
mircea_popescu	why does it sound like that ?	[03:32]
BTC-Mining	Because that's exactly what you're doing? Except the moment where you tell me I have to let go.	[03:34]
BTC-Mining	It's not like someone lost at see who is declared as such because he can't survive too long in the open sea so all efforts should be abandoned. Shares can't die, even if lost for years.	[03:34]
mircea_popescu	but you are familiar with the circumstance that the nyse merely trades, there's clearing houses and depositary isntitutions which actually hold the shares and settle/clear the transactions	[03:34]
mircea_popescu	correct ?	[03:35]
mircea_popescu	well ?!	[03:37]
BTC-Mining	Yes, and it should have been done. The fact GLBSE was 100% central seems moot however. Because the fact the data might not resurface and the broker might not get access to the shares he held for me does not excuse him to erase all data just for the heck of it based on his personal expectations of what will happen. I would expect the same from someone managing an ETF.	[03:37]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15000 @ 0.00046534 = 6.9801 BTC [-]	[03:37]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2300 @ 0.00046531 = 1.0702 BTC [-]	[03:37]
BTC-Mining	Especially with something as easy to avoid by simply not willingly deleting the data.	[03:38]
mircea_popescu	so, to fix your example : if a rain of meteors obliterates the nyse, and each and all scrap of trace of the existance, chain of custody and so forth of an asset	[03:38]
mircea_popescu	will you be surprised if your broker says, after a few years/a decade, "sorry" and moves on ?	[03:38]
BTC-Mining	After a decade, no.	[03:39]
mircea_popescu	right.	[03:39]
mircea_popescu	it's been 8 dividend periods.	[03:39]
mircea_popescu	that's close to a decade.	[03:39]
BTC-Mining	It hasn't been a decade however.	[03:39]
mircea_popescu	but this isn't an irl broker, however.	[03:39]
mircea_popescu	time moves at a different pace here, as proven by the fact dividends are not paid yearly.	[03:40]
BTC-Mining	If no trace are found of records and it's obvious they were destroyed, I would not mind that my broker moves on and asks the same of me. But this is not the case.	[03:41]
BTC-Mining	Time does not move at a different pace?	[03:41]
mircea_popescu	now, i haven't DONE THIS FIRST, but announced it with ample time in advance exactly so as to have the opportunity for this sort of conversation	[03:41]
BTC-Mining	Dividends are paid more often simply because Bitcoins (and bitcoin mining) allows income and sharing of it much faster without all the financial fees to send those funds around. Not because time magically paces faster around Bitcoins.	[03:42]
mircea_popescu	again, cognitive dissonance 101 ?	[03:43]
mircea_popescu	things happen faster but they don't happen faster ?	[03:43]
mircea_popescu	well, why not ?	[03:43]
BTC-Mining	The dividends happen faster. Time does not move faster. They are different things.	[03:44]
mircea_popescu	your irl broker will move on after 10 dividend periods, aka a decade irl. mpex moves on after 10 dividend periods, aka 2 months irl.	[03:44]
mircea_popescu	seems rather reasonable.	[03:44]
BTC-Mining	I would attribute the frequent dividend to the nature of Bitcoins. They allow it for not being as slow and not requiring such wire fees for sending funds. Plus the small nature of operations can also manage to pay more often.	[03:45]
mircea_popescu	right.	[03:45]
mircea_popescu	but the asset has in fact already missed something like 5 or 6 dividend payments, correct ?	[03:45]
BTC-Mining	The time my IRL broker moves on is not based on dividend periods, it's based on leaving time for the recovery of record. That dividends are paid every day or every 10 years matters not.	[03:46]
mircea_popescu	well, why not ?	[03:46]
mircea_popescu	if "allows income and sharing of it much faster" that'd seem on the face that it... allows... things...moving...faster.	[03:47]
mircea_popescu	why should just some things move faster ?	[03:47]
BTC-Mining	Because why would he wait before moving on? For data recovery if possible. If not possible, move on.	[03:47]
mircea_popescu	right.	[03:47]
mircea_popescu	so you are literally telling me that it takes two months to do a couple sql queries on nefario's end ?	[03:47]
BTC-Mining	Data recovery is completly unrelated and independant of payment periods.	[03:48]
mircea_popescu	it's not like he has to dig out records from a 5mn folders pile of paper.	[03:48]
mircea_popescu	no, it's not lol	[03:48]
mircea_popescu	since the very reason you gave for faster payment periods was ease of handling the data	[03:48]
BTC-Mining	Well who's to say because it is easy and faster, it will be done so? You could pay out on S.MPOE daily or weekly, but you do not.	[03:50]
mircea_popescu	no, i do not. i think the weekly thing is unconscionable.	[03:50]
mircea_popescu	but that's really besides the point isn't it ?	[03:50]
BTC-Mining	Not really.	[03:50]
mircea_popescu	how so ?	[03:51]
*	mircea_popescu wonders if everyone else is alseep/sexting/busy not giving a shit or quite the contrary, in awed silence at the sheer genius of the debate unraveling before their very eyes.	[03:52]
BTC-Mining	I claim payment period can possibly be more frequent, but not obligated. I want to know why, because of these faster periods (completly unrelated and optional), you feel it's ok to move on and delete all data just as much faster, without any knowledge of what's happening on Nefario's side?	[03:53]
*	mod6 is catching up	[03:53]
mircea_popescu	but do you actually claim that objectively the time needed to retrieve the data is in the months rather than minutes scale ?	[03:54]
BTC-Mining	No	[03:54]
mircea_popescu	ok. so then what is your idea here ?	[03:54]
mircea_popescu	that more time could conceivably helpand thus is a right ?	[03:54]
mircea_popescu	nefario could in fact have released all the data in question in half the time we took discussing his idiocy so far.	[03:55]
mircea_popescu	just in this present bout.	[03:55]
BTC-Mining	But he seemed quite concerned of the legalities when he closed. He didn't run away with all the funds. He did take time to start processing. He's probably still concerned.	[03:55]
mircea_popescu	so ?!	[03:55]
BTC-Mining	So he could be checking further how to minimize his liabilities.	[03:56]
mircea_popescu	after the fact ?	[03:56]
BTC-Mining	Decide to require AML again for disclosing assets, or anything really.	[03:56]
BTC-Mining	Yes, after the fact.	[03:57]
mircea_popescu	i still don't see how any of this makes any sense or amounts to an actual challenge	[03:57]
mircea_popescu	i mean... maybe he decides to give us all candy, in the future. it's possible, why not.	[03:57]
mircea_popescu	but that aside : a catastrophe has occured	[03:58]
mircea_popescu	even though this was not specifically written out in thecontract, a set interval of time will be allowed for recovery	[03:58]
mircea_popescu	after which that's that.	[03:58]
mircea_popescu	do you see a problem in principle with this ?	[03:58]
BTC-Mining	If you don't know the facts, he claims to have asked the FSA about it long ago but they claimed not to be concerned by anything Bitcoins related. (Probably miscommunication). Trying to go legal, he consulted again and was told to stop or he could be charged.	[03:59]
mircea_popescu	you know this as a fact ?	[03:59]
BTC-Mining	I'll have to fetch the sources, but it seems likely. Seems to be what GLBSE shareholders claim.	[04:00]
mircea_popescu	well does it seem likely or wtf.	[04:00]
mircea_popescu	half the glbse shareholders are pretty much lieing scumbags, as it came out.	[04:00]
mircea_popescu	i thought you were all against mixing fact and fiction.	[04:00]
BTC-Mining	Hmm, yes. But fact is, if it's indeed true, he could limit his liabilities by applying regulations after he's been made aware of it, and would certainly get him to delay things a lot while consulting.	[04:02]
kuzetsa	mircea_popescu: the glbse flaming and whatnot... don't you have ties to a competing exchange? as such, isn'	[04:02]
mircea_popescu	look, i have in fact hired lawyers in this life, i'm not talking out of imagination.	[04:02]
mircea_popescu	NEVER have i waited A MONTH for a fucking report.	[04:02]
kuzetsa	isn't FUD surrounding GLBSE good for your business?	[04:02]
mircea_popescu	maybe a couple of weeks, if it was REALLY involved and complex and needed loads of research	[04:02]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1131 @ 0.00046045 = 0.5208 BTC [-]	[04:03]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27700 @ 0.00046037 = 12.7522 BTC [-]	[04:03]
BTC-Mining	I'm against opinion passing as facts, or misquoting.	[04:03]
mircea_popescu	kuzetsa i own the exchange glbse was trying to compete with.	[04:03]
kuzetsa	uh huh	[04:03]
BTC-Mining	But Nefario seems to only be able to aford some lousy lawyer.	[04:03]
mircea_popescu	BTC-Mining ok, but let's get back on track here.	[04:03]
BTC-Mining	If Nefario is screwing things up or being slow, it wouldn't excuse you from doing just as much in return. Plus it opens you to accusations. You should keep the data for at least more than 2 months is what I am saying.	[04:04]
mircea_popescu	well so i said it's kept a month, you want it to be kept two. am i correct in inferring that at least in principle you don't see a problem, and you mostly dispute the actual time interval ?	[04:05]
BTC-Mining	No, after the 1st December, you'll have kept it for more than 2 months.	[04:05]
mircea_popescu	huh ?	[04:06]
BTC-Mining	hmm... 2 months actually	[04:06]
BTC-Mining	Since the day GLBSE went down.	[04:06]
mircea_popescu	how do we count that ? was it oct 1st ? or with goat ? or with yest when it finally went offline ?	[04:06]
BTC-Mining	And yes, I dispute the time interval. Your argument so far was that if payment periods go faster, why not the time allowed to disclose the information before considering it gone for good? But you yourself agreed that the two were unrelated.	[04:08]
BTC-Mining	I do not dispute the delisting, nor the need to eventually move on.	[04:08]
mircea_popescu	so for clarity, you agree with the principle, but disagree with the interval ?	[04:08]
mircea_popescu	kay.	[04:08]
mircea_popescu	well... so what's the rationale for your interval ?	[04:08]
sgornick	> mircea_popescu wonders if everyone else is alseep/sexting/busy not giving a shit or quite the contrary,	[04:09]
mircea_popescu	o hai sgornick	[04:09]
*	sgornick scrolled back, and read forward. And would like a refund for the past 8 minutes of his life.	[04:09]
mircea_popescu	how much is it ?	[04:09]
sgornick	about two satoshis.	[04:09]
mircea_popescu	address ? :p	[04:10]
kakobrekla	hey, thats my fee.	[04:10]
BTC-Mining	8/60th of minimum salary in whatever area he is located.	[04:10]
BTC-Mining	minimum hourly salary*	[04:10]
kuzetsa	;;gpg info sgornick	[04:10]
gribble	User 'sgornick', with keyid F64A32C07327B2F8, fingerprint 1619E0F30A0AE945C3A5407EF64A32C07327B2F8, and bitcoin address 1ADZYhYZu1epmsZUAUa2fZ299p7xwVJ46k, registered on Mon Mar 7 00:42:20 2011. http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewgpg.php?nick=sgornick . Currently not authenticated.	[04:10]
kuzetsa	mircea_popescu: probably that one :P	[04:10]
mircea_popescu	maybe he wants satoshi pairs sent to special mating addresses where they can multiply, what do i know.	[04:11]
kuzetsa	heh	[04:11]
smickles	BTC-Mining: "... He didn't run away with all the funds. ..." << um actually you can't quite say this, only 2 of my 3 accounts received btc back	[04:12]
BTC-Mining	He didn't run away with >>ALL<< the funds	[04:12]
smickles	heh, he did from the perspective of those accounts	[04:13]
smickles	and i put that backward	[04:13]
smickles	1 of 3 got btc back	[04:13]
mircea_popescu	smickles in the end it seems he paid ~1.3k or so	[04:13]
BTC-Mining	So you could expect he actually intends to refund everyone. Wether he can or screw up doing so however, is uncertain, since there's already a screw up.	[04:13]
mircea_popescu	originally i was thinking he just paid theymos' funds	[04:13]
mircea_popescu	BTC-Mining i still don't understand why would he not have issued the assets, if he's gonna do it.	[04:14]
mircea_popescu	i mean, at first few days cause it might take some time to recombobulate the data	[04:14]
mircea_popescu	then cause he was holding theymos hostage for btc	[04:14]
mircea_popescu	now ?	[04:14]
BTC-Mining	mircea, 1.3k is just what was claimed by people on the forum. Most probably never claimed their payment on my thread, or were even aware of it or willing to disclose how much they had on it.	[04:14]
smickles	is there news about the asset info?	[04:14]
mircea_popescu	smickles none	[04:14]
BTC-Mining	People like to be private around Bitcoins it seems.	[04:14]
BTC-Mining	Mircea, the rationale behind the interval is that with how things have been going, it is not clear or obvious that Nefario lost any data or intends not to return it. And being highly unpredictable and uncommunicative since the start, one could expect the information to be released way past the short delay you seem to allow.	[04:15]
smickles	what am I going to do with all this btc if i don't get infos	[04:15]
mircea_popescu	this is mostly cause i announced that giga.etf goes away on dec 1st if it's not fixed	[04:15]
mircea_popescu	BTC-Mining yes, but in order to have a deadline you have to have a deadline	[04:15]
BTC-Mining	But why one month away?	[04:15]
mircea_popescu	so what's your proposed deadline and why ?	[04:15]
mircea_popescu	well, i honestly went 10x dividend periods	[04:15]
mircea_popescu	seemed to me the most reasonable approach.	[04:15]
smickles	yeah, what's the reasonable amount of time that I have to secure and maintain this btc?	[04:16]
smickles	it's not like i'm getting paid to do it	[04:16]
mircea_popescu	smickles it's a quite important problem.	[04:16]
mircea_popescu	which is why i think this discussion matters.	[04:16]
mircea_popescu	i mean, FOREVER is off the table. now, how long is reasonable ?	[04:16]
sgornick	Wait, did the giga.ETF manager obtain the gigamining shares through GLBSE, or direct from gigamiing?	[04:17]
smickles	is there any legal position to be informed by?	[04:17]
mircea_popescu	smickles not really.	[04:17]
mircea_popescu	sgornick i originally had them directly, but then all pre-ipo holdings were transformed into glbse shares	[04:17]
BTC-Mining	I'd say at least 6 months without any news or sight whatsoever of Nefario. Considering it's assets information, it's still very short, but at least more appropriate.	[04:17]
smickles	bad move, in hind sight mircea_popescu	[04:17]
mircea_popescu	smickles i didn't want to do it, i asked at the time to keep it private, but eventually didn't want to cause trouble.	[04:18]
smickles	6 months and then what BTC-Mining ?	[04:18]
mircea_popescu	after all, "fud" it was called, right ?	[04:18]
smickles	fud, lovely	[04:18]
BTC-Mining	He'll delete all data regarding what is owed.	[04:18]
mircea_popescu	6 months "without sight" ? what if the bloke pulls a strateman, drops by every season on btctalk to post a trollface ?	[04:18]
smickles	thing is, Uncertainty and Doubt are good things	[04:18]
mircea_popescu	BTC-Mining i can't delete "all data" man. the signed stats will forever exist.	[04:18]
BTC-Mining	Aye	[04:19]
mircea_popescu	we're not talking glbse here.	[04:19]
mircea_popescu	anyone can keep the stat saying "x F.GIGA" for as long as they think it's worth it.	[04:19]
BTC-Mining	But you won't keep your side of the data or honor anything, am I right?	[04:19]
BTC-Mining	or will you?	[04:19]
mircea_popescu	it won't show in your stats anymore.	[04:20]
mircea_popescu	it will still exist in my backups, obviouysly	[04:20]
mircea_popescu	(as well as in your backups, if you're downloading the mpex backups with any frequency)	[04:20]
BTC-Mining	So you're actually going to keep the data?	[04:20]
mircea_popescu	depends what that means ;/	[04:20]
mircea_popescu	it will not be in the active db.	[04:21]
BTC-Mining	Will you honor the most recent data available as of who owns what of the ETF should the information be disclosed and you get access to the funds received through it?	[04:21]
BTC-Mining	I guess would be were I'm getting at.	[04:22]
smickles	30 years later?	[04:22]
mircea_popescu	lol srsly.	[04:22]
smickles	;P	[04:22]
BTC-Mining	Yes.	[04:22]
mircea_popescu	nope.	[04:22]
smickles	BTC-Mining: you expect the data to be kept for 30 years?	[04:23]
mircea_popescu	didn't you just say above you understand there will have to be some limit ?!	[04:23]
BTC-Mining	I wasn't answering to smickles... in hindsight, I was answering the "lol, srsly", but it was probably destined to smickles.	[04:23]
smickles	http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/moneymatters/a/unclaimedabout.htm	[04:24]
mircea_popescu	no but in general, people will have to start reading up on write-offs.	[04:24]
BTC-Mining	I don't expect 30 years. I'm just asking, suppose the data is released in the next few months, would you honor the most recent information?	[04:24]
mircea_popescu	this notion that they hang on the hope of pirate repaying 30 years later...	[04:24]
mircea_popescu	this is cargo cult not finance.	[04:24]
mircea_popescu	if those next few months are november, then absolutely.	[04:25]
BTC-Mining	But pirate was an obvious ponzi, still is, and he just disappeared suddenly one day and stopped paying people.	[04:25]
mircea_popescu	no he didn't	[04:25]
mircea_popescu	he kept pulling people's chains FOR MONTHS	[04:25]
mircea_popescu	and it was "an obvious ponzi" pretty much to three people iirc.	[04:26]
mircea_popescu	but we digress	[04:26]
BTC-Mining	Sorry. The business stopped paying suddenly one day.	[04:26]
mircea_popescu	http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/img/nq508ed4f8.jpg this is aptly named "ocean city"	[04:26]
BTC-Mining	All I'm saying is, 1 month is not reasonable delays.	[04:27]
mircea_popescu	2.	[04:27]
thestringpuller	smickles: ;;ident	[04:27]
BTC-Mining	1 month before delisting, 6 before deleting the data you hold, would be the minimum I find acceptable.	[04:28]
smickles	;;ident	[04:28]
gribble	You are identified as user smickles, with GPG key id EA62D7CEB2450C3F, key fingerprint 96ACCA7C3B09EC61B0A6D7F9EA62D7CEB2450C3F, and bitcoin address 12NjnZTVeTJ3g5C7BqfS2aQ2rLkmwiqVz6	[04:28]
smickles	;;ident thestringpuller	[04:28]
gribble	Nick 'thestringpuller', with hostmask 'thestringpuller!~leflor@99-39-98-185.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net', is identified as user thestringpuller, with GPG key id 0FF2943DA179E169, key fingerprint 6ACE36E786F39A4ADC4506DE0FF2943DA179E169, and bitcoin address None	[04:28]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8769 @ 0.00045982 = 4.0322 BTC [-]	[04:28]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 300 @ 0.00046489 = 0.1395 BTC [+]	[04:28]
mircea_popescu	BTC-Mining based on what criteria ?	[04:28]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5400 @ 0.0004657 = 2.5148 BTC [+]	[04:28]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11631 @ 0.00046613 = 5.4216 BTC [+]	[04:28]
mircea_popescu	just pulled some numbers ?	[04:28]
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BTC-Mining	Yes it's an opinion. Based on the fact Nefario has been unreliable and he doesn't have an history of completing task this fast. So I find it unreasonable to give a delay of 1 month.	[04:30]
mircea_popescu	man, but this subject can'tbe decided based on nefario. nefario is below a negligible quantity.	[04:31]
mircea_popescu	we need something workable in principle	[04:31]
mircea_popescu	you think we'll just change the terms based on each low-life that happens to blow this way ?	[04:31]
BTC-Mining	But there's none, because only Nefario can release the data. And he's unreliable.	[04:32]
smickles	I'm not going to base my obligation on the shortcomming of an asshat	[04:32]
BTC-Mining	Even if you're not at fault, professionalism would recommend you allow a long delay to account for that.	[04:32]
mircea_popescu	smickles in any event, i don't think escheat would be the controlling doctrine. more like treasure trove or somesuch	[04:32]
smickles	BTC-Mining: from what i'm reading, it seems that a resonable period of time may be between 1 and 3 years	[04:33]
mircea_popescu	BTC-Mining i don't dispute, a long delay. why's 2 months not a long delay tho.	[04:33]
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smickles	mircea_popescu: what about considering it lost	[04:35]
BTC-Mining	Because any individual, especially when dealing with them personnally, can often report to later for months to a few years before resolving the dispute or admitting he can't. And Nefario admitted he wouldn't accept any decision by GLBSE shareholder and would act however he wished to protect himself.	[04:35]
mircea_popescu	smickles needs more words	[04:36]
BTC-Mining	He made it obvious he would have priority, so long delays might be expected.	[04:36]
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mircea_popescu	you keep refering to nefario as if he's relevant. i don't see why he is relevant at all.	[04:36]
BTC-Mining	If he had never sent out so many payment and just stopped business like Pirate did and just stayed around, I would not have minded the 1 month delay.	[04:37]
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BTC-Mining	I already stated he's relevant because he's the only one holding the assets information and able to disclose it.	[04:37]
mircea_popescu	but the only way to quash this would be to show that a two month delay is not acceptable in principle.	[04:38]
smickles	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adverse_possession would be an interesting way to handle it	[04:38]
mircea_popescu	showing that it's not convenient in this particular case isn't much.	[04:38]
mircea_popescu	smickles afaik that's always been limited to real property.	[04:39]
smickles	yeah	[04:39]
mircea_popescu	there's no adverse posession of chattels	[04:39]
BTC-Mining	Delays for data recovery can never be determined exactly. I don't see why it would require to be proven to be acceptable or not.	[04:39]
mircea_popescu	i mean, BTC-Mining : i received recently a request from neustar to prove that indeed i am entitled to hold a .us domain	[04:40]
mircea_popescu	the time interval offered was 10 days.	[04:40]
BTC-Mining	Yes, so?	[04:40]
smickles	oh shit	[04:41]
smickles	involuntary bailee	[04:41]
smickles	An exception to all the above is the case of an involuntary bailee, one who by not intentional acts is made a bailee. For example, if one is given a stock certificate but it turns out to be the wrong certificate (intended for someone else), he is an unintentional bailee, he has made no intentional act to become a bailee. He is therefore entitled to divest himself of the certificate regardless of a duty of care, so long as he does no malicious or	[04:41]
mircea_popescu	smickles ofcourse. but we're trying to avoid this.	[04:41]
mircea_popescu	there's no dispute that in law i can drop the entire thing on oct the 5th.	[04:41]
mircea_popescu	you too, and anyone else involved.	[04:42]
BTC-Mining	Why?	[04:42]
BTC-Mining	And does that automatically make that delay appropriate for everything? (the 10 days thing)	[04:42]
smickles	BTC-Mining: seems to be statutory in common law	[04:42]
mircea_popescu	BTC-Mining because you can't force somebody to hold something for you at their expense ?	[04:42]
smickles	with no precedent overriding it	[04:42]
BTC-Mining	But that's the thing, you were not forced to held these for us and would gain a huge financial benefit if the information is disclosed after you deleted the data.	[04:43]
mircea_popescu	what benefit is that ?	[04:43]
BTC-Mining	You're not an unintentional bailee.	[04:43]
BTC-Mining	Financial benefit? You are now in possession of ~1000 Gigamining bonds with no data of who held the ETF or intention to honor it.	[04:44]
mircea_popescu	nope ?	[04:44]
BTC-Mining	How so?	[04:45]
mircea_popescu	i have (indirect) claims on about 1k (more like 1.1 iirc) of gigaminign shares.	[04:45]
BTC-Mining	Aye, so?	[04:46]
mircea_popescu	if i had 1k bonds this discussion wouldn't exist, i'd be paying dividends on them lol.	[04:46]
BTC-Mining	You don't have them now, no... That's not what I said either.	[04:46]
mircea_popescu	You are now in possession of ~1000 Gigamining bonds <<	[04:47]
mircea_popescu	but anyway.	[04:47]
BTC-Mining	I said if information was released after December 1st, you'd now be in possession of those bonds.	[04:47]
mircea_popescu	o i see	[04:47]
BTC-Mining	Because you would have deleted all data with no intent to further honor it, it stands as a financial gain. Gigavps keeps track of what is due and would start paying out all missed payments.	[04:48]
mircea_popescu	nah, im not going to realise that gain.	[04:48]
BTC-Mining	No, but that won't be verifiable.	[04:48]
smickles	not forced to hold? i giving it all back and nefario stopped that and sent the btc back to me :/	[04:51]
mircea_popescu	i guess if i end up with a windfall it'll just make some worthy cause rich.	[04:52]
mircea_popescu	i wonder who should get it this time, pdpc got it last time...	[04:52]
BTC-Mining	And since you were not forced to hold them for the ETF, I think that voids your right to be entitled to divest yourself of the certificate either.	[04:52]
mircea_popescu	huh ?	[04:53]
BTC-Mining	What smickles proposed about involuntary bailee.	[04:53]
mircea_popescu	wait a second.	[04:54]
smickles	i dunno that much about involuntary bailee, i'm just searching for any sort of similar thing to what's going on here	[04:54]
mircea_popescu	so, i made thing A. thing A is no longer. you want me to be the holder of substitute-thing B until such a time that you're satisfied.	[04:54]
mircea_popescu	this qualifies just fine.	[04:55]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4800 @ 0.00045984 = 2.2072 BTC [-]	[04:55]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2600 @ 0.00045901 = 1.1934 BTC [-]	[04:55]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11300 @ 0.00045833 = 5.1791 BTC [-]	[04:55]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16757 @ 0.00045799 = 7.6745 BTC [-]	[04:55]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12368 @ 0.00045794 = 5.6638 BTC [-]	[04:55]
BTC-Mining	You're not even divesting from the Gigamining shares, you're destroying your own ETF, issued by you. Divesting requires departing yourself of the asset. But if information is disclosed, you will be in their possession. What you are destroying are the claims to them, which you are:	[04:59]
BTC-Mining	1. Neither the holder	[04:59]
BTC-Mining	2. Neither the involuntary holder	[04:59]
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BTC-Mining	You own rights to Gigamining bonds (on your own will). I own claims to them.	[05:00]
mircea_popescu	let's see the whole line here.	[05:00]
smickles	BTC-Mining: involuntary bailee seems to say that if someone is in possesion of something that isn't theirs, and they came by this possesion unintintionally, then they are not responsible to the real owner for what happens to it	[05:00]
mircea_popescu	1. giga made a mining thing ; 2. glbse listed the mining thing ; 3. i own shares in the glbse mining thing ; 4 i made a mpex thing ; 5 you own shares in the mpex thing.	[05:01]
mircea_popescu	this about right so far ?	[05:01]
BTC-Mining	He didn't get the shares unintentionally. He bought them to then sell fractional claims to them.	[05:02]
smickles	so the shares are his anyway then	[05:02]
smickles	the fractional claim is the question?	[05:02]
BTC-Mining	He's not an unintentional holder is what I'm saying.	[05:02]
smickles	it's force majeure	[05:02]
smickles	overwhelming force has voided the f.giga contract	[05:03]
smickles	voided or posponed i guess	[05:03]
BTC-Mining	No	[05:03]
smickles	how is it not?	[05:04]
mircea_popescu	no but srsly, let us get to the bottom of this, ok ?	[05:04]
BTC-Mining	He has no such clauses or anything reserving himself the right to arbitrarily and unilaterally void the claims he sold himself.	[05:04]
mircea_popescu	BTC-Mining you dispute the scheme laid out above ?	[05:04]
BTC-Mining	I do not.	[05:04]
mircea_popescu	ok.	[05:04]
mircea_popescu	now, in the event 2 dissapears,	[05:04]
BTC-Mining	Except for part 3	[05:05]
mircea_popescu	well ?	[05:05]
BTC-Mining	You own shares in the mining thing, not the glbse mining thing.	[05:05]
mircea_popescu	nope, i own shares in the glbse miningthing	[05:05]
mircea_popescu	ie, GIGAMINING shares	[05:05]
BTC-Mining	You own Gigamining shares, issued and traded on GLBSE, but not "GLBSE's mining thing"	[05:06]
mircea_popescu	again, if i had off-glbse private bonds this entire discussion would be moot.	[05:06]
BTC-Mining	Indeed...	[05:06]
mircea_popescu	well, let it be on record that what i mean by "GLBSE's mining thing" is Gigamining shares, issued and traded on GLBSE	[05:06]
mircea_popescu	moving right along.	[05:06]
BTC-Mining	Perfect then	[05:06]
mircea_popescu	once 2 goes away, you propose that it is my obligation to create a 2' vehicle to bridge this gap.	[05:06]
mircea_popescu	i might extend something like this as a courtesy, and for a limited time	[05:07]
mircea_popescu	in law i'm perfectly allowed to not do it at all (hence the discussion of involuntary bailee, you purport to make me the depositor of a 2' device which i never should have to hold)	[05:07]
mircea_popescu	but even if i forfeit this entitlement, i can only do it in a time-limited way	[05:08]
mircea_popescu	i can't accept eternal burden of any-and-all 2'	[05:08]
mircea_popescu	that could or may be conceived.	[05:08]
smickles	this is a facinating issue to me :)	[05:08]
mircea_popescu	it is a pretty important point for btc in general, which is why i'm taking the time	[05:09]
mircea_popescu	conveniently BTC-Mining is taking the other side, i'm not sure i'd prefer anyone else for it.	[05:09]
BTC-Mining	You are not an unvoluntary bailee. You received the assets of your own will and held them of your own will for the purpose of selling claims to it. You never received them against your will. In fact, they're currently TAKEN AWAY from you against your own will. Not forced upon you.	[05:10]
mircea_popescu	yes, the assets.	[05:10]
smickles	BTC-Mining: didn't you claim to have bought a bunch of f.giga when glbse went down?	[05:10]
mircea_popescu	but not some-other-thing-which-aren't-the-assets.	[05:10]
BTC-Mining	How are you the unvoluntary bailee of those other things?	[05:10]
smickles	wait, do we really consider having stuff associated with your glbse account ownership? (maybe off topic)	[05:11]
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BTC-Mining	Aka, the giga.etf	[05:11]
mircea_popescu	BTC-Mining because the vehicle for my ownership was the glbse share	[05:12]
mircea_popescu	which now is no more.	[05:12]
mircea_popescu	it has in practice been replaced by a vague sort of claim thing.	[05:12]
BTC-Mining	The claims were sold to me. I'm the current holder. You are not. You are the issuer. You cannot be the unvoluntary bailee of your own issue.	[05:12]
smickles	alology:	[05:12]
smickles	mircea_popescu leased an office in a building, the building is taken out by a tornado	[05:13]
smickles	(leased to someone else)	[05:13]
smickles	is mircea_popescu still responsible to provide an office to that person?	[05:13]
smickles	assumes there was not a force majeure clause in the lease	[05:14]
mircea_popescu	smickles no, it's more complicated. person A leases a building to person B. person B leases office space to C. person A is arrested and the building confiscated. C demands from B that B ensures C gets the office space at a future time if the building is returned to A.	[05:14]
mircea_popescu	this makes B the involuntary bailee of C's claim, because B never leased to C any such thing as "future claims to the office space conditional on A's performance in court"	[05:15]
mircea_popescu	while C may be entitled to that claim, it's really not much of B's business.	[05:15]
smickles	hmm	[05:16]
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BTC-Mining	No. B indeed (re)leased office space to C.	[05:17]
BTC-Mining	To be the involuntary bailee, you'd have to be holding the claim from C to A. Where you could throw out the claim or quite simply give it to it's actual beneficiary.	[05:18]
mircea_popescu	BTC-Mining there's no limitation that you can only be ib if you can divest in a manner convenient to all partsi nvolved	[05:19]
mircea_popescu	quite the contrary.	[05:19]
mircea_popescu	anyway, even the example as given is simplified, because it gonflates giga and glbse into A.	[05:19]
BTC-Mining	Yes. Indeed.	[05:19]
mircea_popescu	and at any rate the whole involuntary bailee point is mostly academic, it just rehashes the obvious "tough tits" line	[05:19]
mircea_popescu	we only got into that cause smickles brought it up, but otherwise, the point is more along the lines of,	[05:20]
mircea_popescu	some time limit will have to be enforced. why this rather than that ?	[05:20]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11000 @ 0.00045794 = 5.0373 BTC [-]	[05:20]
BTC-Mining	Because it's perfectably expectable for information to be released in more than a month, while it is not in 10 years without any news.	[05:21]
mircea_popescu	in principle the same could be said of 10 years vs 1000 years.	[05:21]
BTC-Mining	Why?	[05:21]
mircea_popescu	cause it's purely arbitrary. yes, the chances to get something decrease with time. so, if nothing happens in one week, better wait a month.	[05:22]
mircea_popescu	if nothing happens in am onth, better wait two. if nothing happens in two better wait six	[05:22]
mircea_popescu	etc.	[05:22]
smickles	mircea_popescu: lets do this logically, you made the first positive claim right?	[05:22]
mircea_popescu	still doesn't indicate why six months is more reasonable than six weeks	[05:22]
mircea_popescu	smickles what i indicated was 10 dividend periods.	[05:22]
mircea_popescu	i don't claim it's perfect or anything, should carry the day	[05:23]
smickles	then BTC-Mining contested, right	[05:23]
mircea_popescu	i just didn't hear anything more reasonable.	[05:23]
mircea_popescu	smickles well we agreed on principle but not on the actual interval so far.	[05:23]
smickles	so how do you justify 10 difidend periods?	[05:23]
BTC-Mining	In 10 years, odds of data remaining gets slight, especially as the storage on which the data was is probably destroyed and unless some guy (who never gave news or disclosed this date), kept moving it to new storage as time went by, the data would be lost. Which is expectable and probable. Why would the guy keep to back it up if he's not disclosing it?	[05:23]
mircea_popescu	smickles degree of magnitute more than the smallest contractual breach	[05:24]
mircea_popescu	BTC-Mining yes, they will be slight, by today's measure. cause today the scent is still fresh. but in 9 years it will seem reasonable to wait 100 rather than 10.	[05:24]
smickles	BTC-Mining: do you contest this 'order of magnitude' argument?	[05:24]
mircea_popescu	why'd he have to contest it	[05:24]
smickles	logic	[05:24]
mircea_popescu	that's kinda absurd, we'll never be done if we go that way	[05:25]
BTC-Mining	No. Because it has to be set as a hard limit.	[05:25]
mircea_popescu	we just contest ad infinitum	[05:25]
BTC-Mining	But by today's standard.	[05:25]
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mircea_popescu	more constructively, do you have something better than that, i'd want to know	[05:25]
BTC-Mining	Not by reviewing them later as: "Well we went on waiting 10 years, why not 100?"	[05:25]
mircea_popescu	BTC-Mining but that's exactly what we're doing today.	[05:25]
BTC-Mining	And 1 month does not seems appropriate.	[05:25]
BTC-Mining	I'm contesting that.	[05:26]
mircea_popescu	we waited a month, and you are saying "well we should wait six cause this guy is slow"	[05:26]
smickles	mircea_popescu: you'd only do it back to first principles, not ad infinitum	[05:26]
smickles	and if you disagree on first principles, one of you is a turnip	[05:26]
mircea_popescu	lol	[05:26]
BTC-Mining	I'm not contesting it 1 month after. I'm contesting the fact you chose 1 month from day 1.	[05:26]
mircea_popescu	BTC-Mining sorry what ?	[05:26]
BTC-Mining	"[23:25] we waited a month, and you are saying "well we should wait six cause this guy is slow""	[05:27]
mircea_popescu	right.	[05:27]
BTC-Mining	We didn't wait a month, that's the thing.	[05:27]
copumpkin	mod6: http://www.businessinsider.com/top-25-richest-hedge-funds-2012-1	[05:27]
mircea_popescu	what did we do ?	[05:27]
mircea_popescu	copumpkin o wow, tyggr ?!	[05:28]
copumpkin	lol	[05:28]
BTC-Mining	GLBSE.com went offline. You decided to, right now, allow 1 month.	[05:28]
copumpkin	little did you know that Chaang-Noi was a hedge fund manager	[05:28]
BTC-Mining	I'm contesting that this decision is appropriate for right now.	[05:28]
BTC-Mining	And not contesting afterward saying we should wait more.	[05:29]
mircea_popescu	but see, glbse.com going offline is really the absolute last signal of dissapearance.	[05:29]
mircea_popescu	nefario went silent, before this. their board broke apart.	[05:29]
mircea_popescu	the guy got a scammer tag for chrissakes	[05:29]
BTC-Mining	I would have no problem accepting it if I had agreed the delay was reasonable, and waited the whole of that delay.	[05:29]
mircea_popescu	this was the last ditch of credibility left.	[05:29]
mircea_popescu	what's left now ?	[05:29]
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BTC-Mining	He got a scammer tag because Theymos was a shareholder and got screwed in this because Nefario doesn't recognize their decisive power because he claims he can't honor requests that would make him break the law.	[05:30]
mircea_popescu	man, forget the because. look at things objectively.	[05:30]
BTC-Mining	I does not prevents him from disclosing the information.	[05:30]
mircea_popescu	is the guy here defending himself ? no, he's not. is the company still standing ? no, it was dissolved (retroactively).	[05:31]
mircea_popescu	is his reputation in good standing ? no, it's not.	[05:31]
mircea_popescu	is the website online ? neither.	[05:31]
mircea_popescu	what is left to hang hope on ?	[05:31]
BTC-Mining	Eh, I thought so too. 1 month is just a token period. You'd erase the data right away if it wouldn't raise protest. You already consider it gone.	[05:32]
mircea_popescu	i wouldn't erase the data right away on general principle.	[05:32]
mircea_popescu	and afaik at least one glbse failure was already resolved, without protest for that matter.	[05:32]
mircea_popescu	copumpkin paulson in 2nd place, that must have gone over well	[05:34]
BTC-Mining	So why not have a more reasonable delay, on general principal. Balances have been partially paid out. Nefario communicated with the shareholder his intent to not act upon their vote if it was not lawful to do so.	[05:34]
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copumpkin	mircea_popescu: cause he fucked up so badly? :P	[05:35]
mircea_popescu	BTC-Mining the sticking point is the reasonable part of more reasonable.	[05:35]
copumpkin	oh well, he's rich, doesn't care	[05:35]
BTC-Mining	You're treating it like every other Bitcoin scam with the equivalent delays before declaring it lost.	[05:35]
mircea_popescu	copumpkin o he cares.	[05:35]
thestringpuller	mircea_popescu: monopoly?	[05:35]
mircea_popescu	nah im about to call it a night soon	[05:35]
mircea_popescu	BTC-Mining ask copumpkin, i was pushing for pirate write-offs in august.	[05:35]
mircea_popescu	not that anyone listened then or anything.	[05:36]
copumpkin	oh mircea_popescu was pushing!	[05:36]
copumpkin	oh well :)	[05:36]
mircea_popescu	people seem more religious than business-oriented in btc.	[05:36]
mircea_popescu	teh saviour shall come sort of outlook	[05:36]
copumpkin	I wonder what he's doing with all the money	[05:36]
copumpkin	not that he got any out of me	[05:36]
mircea_popescu	messiah ?	[05:36]
BTC-Mining	So was I. I could almost have expected to write it off almost right away.	[05:36]
BTC-Mining	But to my surprise, balances actually started to be paid.	[05:37]
mircea_popescu	you mean pirate ?!	[05:37]
BTC-Mining	No, GLBSE.	[05:37]
mircea_popescu	o you mean enfario ya	[05:37]
mircea_popescu	yes man, which is why we weren't having this conversation on the 15th	[05:37]
mircea_popescu	but i stil lfail to see how the whole month of november is an unreasonable allowance to fucking pull some fields from a db and send them to peopkle	[05:38]
BTC-Mining	So on that account, I think delays should be set as such to allow the benefit of doubt that Nefario intends to repay.	[05:38]
mircea_popescu	i thought they are ;/	[05:38]
BTC-Mining	Because Nefario DOES NOT WANT to simply pull the database's fields and send that.	[05:38]
mircea_popescu	for instance patrickharnett is getting axed tomorrow on the dot.	[05:38]
mircea_popescu	o, he doesn't want to does he ?	[05:39]
mircea_popescu	and you figure this matters ?	[05:39]
BTC-Mining	Yes.	[05:39]
mircea_popescu	well, i don't. why do i care what someone wants ?	[05:39]
mircea_popescu	what is this, college ?	[05:40]
*	copumpkin pulls out the keg of beer and the funnel	[05:40]
*	copumpkin holds mircea_popescu upside-down	[05:40]
mircea_popescu	lol	[05:40]
mircea_popescu	you would, too.	[05:40]
copumpkin	nah, I actually didn't join a frat in college	[05:40]
copumpkin	thought all that drinking was kind of stupid	[05:40]
mircea_popescu	it sure is.	[05:41]
copumpkin	I don't mind moderate amounts of it, but doing it for its own sake is silly	[05:41]
BTC-Mining	You're unilaterally taking a decision to void claims because Nefario does not release information fast enough for you, regardless of it it will be released or not.	[05:41]
*	da2ce7_d is now known as da2ce7	[05:41]
mircea_popescu	BTC-Mining yes, that's the principle of the thing. when someone says they do something and then they don't do it, they get some time before being cut off	[05:42]
mircea_popescu	regardless if they "will" do it or not.	[05:42]
mircea_popescu	foreclosure works the same exact way, for instance.	[05:42]
BTC-Mining	Yes, but the delays should be set accordingly to the expected time it will take them to do so, and you usually add an extra on that in case.	[05:43]
mircea_popescu	the expected time to pull data from db is 5 minutes.	[05:43]
mircea_popescu	1 + 1 months > 5 minutes	[05:43]
mircea_popescu	problem ?	[05:43]
BTC-Mining	That's the thing. You'd be disregarding all possible laws Nefario might want to comply to by selecting that 5 minute delay.	[05:44]
mircea_popescu	that 5 minute delay is how long it takes to do it.	[05:44]
mircea_popescu	you know, like if you don't make the mortgage payments cause your cat was sick	[05:44]
mircea_popescu	the bank would still fuck you.	[05:44]
BTC-Mining	It's how long it takes to retrieve it from the database. Not how long it takes to disclose it for some paranoid fuck who just started consulting a lawyer.	[05:45]
BTC-Mining	And now wants to close it legally.	[05:45]
mircea_popescu	dude... there's no doctrine of "how long it takes some mentally retarded guy to pay the bill"	[05:45]
mircea_popescu	it's how long the thing takes, not how long the thing takes nefario.	[05:45]
smickles	03:42 < BTC-Mining> Yes, but the delays should be set accordingly to the expected time it will take them to do so, and you usually add an extra on that in case. << the expecte time for him to release the shareholder info should've been about a week	[05:46]
copumpkin	if he's bound by laws, he can tell us what those laws are, at least	[05:46]
copumpkin	you can't cite unknowable lawyerspeak	[05:46]
copumpkin	as an excuse	[05:46]
copumpkin	and it can't just be "the law"	[05:46]
copumpkin	since that just looks like shitty excuses for not getting your shit done	[05:46]
mircea_popescu	copumpkin fwiw, i contacted his theoretical lawyer about two weeks ago.	[05:47]
mircea_popescu	no reply.	[05:47]
smickles	copumpkin: but it's santa cLAWs	[05:47]
copumpkin	lol	[05:47]
copumpkin	mircea_popescu: sounds legit	[05:47]
mircea_popescu	i mean... all this isn't for lack of trying	[05:47]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28000 @ 0.00045797 = 12.8232 BTC [+]	[05:47]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17632 @ 0.00045794 = 8.0744 BTC [-]	[05:47]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4668 @ 0.00045764 = 2.1363 BTC [-]	[05:47]
mircea_popescu	it's for lack of absolutely any reasonable alternative.	[05:47]
copumpkin	mircea_popescu: reminds me of this email I got this morning: http://snapplr.com/rv62	[05:47]
BTC-Mining	The expected time it will take, not in as fast you could do it, but how fast it could be expected to be done according to how it's been said it's going to be done.	[05:47]
mircea_popescu	dear, sounds legit.	[05:47]
copumpkin	mircea_popescu: omg, that's exactly what I said	[05:48]
copumpkin	great minds	[05:48]
mircea_popescu	BTC-Mining no such license eh. for one, how it was said it was going to be done is "instant". check out the guy's presentations at his nonference	[05:48]
BTC-Mining	That's not what he claimed when closing GLBSE.	[05:49]
mircea_popescu	at any rate find me some place nefario says "and btw, if glbse goes down i will take ~6 months to release infos" on or around april 11, 2012	[05:49]
mircea_popescu	dude, what he claimed in october has no bearing on some instrument made in april does it.	[05:49]
smickles	mircea_popescu: april 1, 2012	[05:49]
BTC-Mining	Nowhere does he states how much time he will take to do it. Just that he's suddenly very concerned by a few regulations.	[05:50]
smickles	april fools day	[05:50]
mircea_popescu	twas 11	[05:50]
smickles	@.@	[05:50]
smickles	i'm sure it's april fools day even if it was the 11th	[05:50]
mircea_popescu	lol	[05:50]
mircea_popescu	BTC-Mining why do you think it matters what nefario said after the giga.etf thing was made ?	[05:50]
BTC-Mining	Because he has the damn information to release and you have the claims to the shares I have claims to.	[05:51]
mircea_popescu	so listen, if i run a payday loan service, and i lend some guy 50 bucks for a week	[05:51]
smickles	mircea_popescu: have you asked gigga if he'll honor your shares for the etf?	[05:51]
mircea_popescu	and his employer announces that next salary will be paid in 2050	[05:51]
mircea_popescu	i have to extend my loan to 2050 ?	[05:51]
mircea_popescu	smickles i won't ask such a thing, it's absurd.	[05:52]
BTC-Mining	No. Because that's 40 years. It's unreasonable.	[05:52]
mircea_popescu	2015 ?	[05:52]
BTC-Mining	I'd accept 6 month as a minimum.	[05:52]
smickles	and without a declared timeframe from nefario, i'm starting to think that we can't reasonably expect to get the data in a reasonable amount of time	[05:52]
mircea_popescu	ahah you and your 6 months	[05:53]
mircea_popescu	i wouldn't accept one day. a week's a week. fuck you, pay me.	[05:53]
BTC-Mining	Let me try to explain it from my point of view.	[05:53]
smickles	mircea_popescu: go to missouri eviction legal with one day of default	[05:53]
mircea_popescu	smickles if he had the common courtesy to say you know, on oct 1, we are closed, i expect to pay everyone by the end of this week and release data by the end of the month cause so and so problems	[05:53]
mircea_popescu	and then BLEW both dates	[05:53]
mircea_popescu	i'd still be waiting for him.	[05:53]
smickles	mircea_popescu: yeah, but releasing the data by the end of the month is unreasonably long, unless he could point to a specific detail (law) which prevented him from doing so in that time frame	[05:55]
mircea_popescu	smickles but at least it'd be you know... he said by today, it's not done yet... well let's give it a little and see	[05:56]
mircea_popescu	it'd be... something.	[05:56]
smickles	i have no patients for giving people a little more time	[05:56]
smickles	they take my spelling away from me	[05:56]
mircea_popescu	haha.	[05:56]
mircea_popescu	btw copumpkin have you noticed the "refards" signature in that email ?	[05:57]
mircea_popescu	originally i read "retards"	[05:57]
copumpkin	yeah, there are lots of typos	[05:57]
copumpkin	lol	[05:57]
copumpkin	I didn't see that	[05:57]
BTC-Mining	What that 1 month tells me is because Nefario completly fucked up, although you know about it and although you know he further screwed on the 16th and you know he's never been quite good at PR, because it could be done in 5 minutes by you (which you know won't happen) or that he might never disclose it (again, a possibility, not an absolute), you can't be assed to extend the courtesy	[05:57]
BTC-Mining	of not pressing "delete" on all the data for the ETF's for your customers' sake.	[05:57]
mircea_popescu	this is such complete misrepresentation.	[05:58]
mircea_popescu	since for instance i announced the exact time, what's to keep customers from just saving a stat ?	[05:58]
smickles	BTC-Mining: i've lost too high a % of my net worth by extending people courtesies to continue the practice	[05:59]
BTC-Mining	You said YOURSELF you won't honor the statements if the information is released after December 1st.	[05:59]
smickles	< mircea_popescu> since for instance i announced the exact time, what's to keep customers from just saving a stat ?	[05:59]
smickles	+	[05:59]
BTC-Mining	What good would prior notice and saving the statement do?	[05:59]
smickles	doesn't that imply he'll honor them before dec 1?	[06:00]
smickles	just STAT b/f dec 1	[06:00]
mircea_popescu	BTC-Mining it at the very least changes the customer's position not one bit.	[06:00]
smickles	save it, send it off to amazon glacier	[06:00]
mircea_popescu	you were talking about "data being deleted". a customer wanting to push a claim would be in no worse position today, on the 5th of december 2012 or 2015	[06:01]
BTC-Mining	So?	[06:01]
mircea_popescu	so at the very least under the guise of protecting your interest you're trying to tell me how to sort my files lol	[06:02]
mircea_popescu	which is hardly something you should be involved in ?!	[06:02]
*	Diablo-D3 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)	[06:03]
mircea_popescu	there's two different things here, do you realise this ? your ability to prove that you owed X shares of Y is never going away. that's why you get stats.	[06:04]
mircea_popescu	(and that's why the mpex system is so good, incidentally)	[06:04]
BTC-Mining	It WOULD be good if you didn't keep any profit from that decision from GIGAMINING shares and donated it to a charitable cause.	[06:05]
BTC-Mining	It WOULD be good if you told Gigavps you were writing them off and we could give him those signed statements	[06:05]
smickles	BTC-Mining: i bet, that presenting a stat after info is released would get your benefit back	[06:06]
smickles	.2btc BTC-Mining ?	[06:06]
*	Diablo-D3 (~diablo@pool-64-222-225-145.port.east.myfairpoint.net) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[06:06]
smickles	even odds?	[06:06]
mircea_popescu	well or alternatively he could "sue" me on injust enrichment or w/e	[06:06]
smickles	1:2?	[06:06]
BTC-Mining	No, Mircea clearly stated it would not give my benefit back.	[06:06]
BTC-Mining	After December 1st, if assets information is released, he won't honor any statements.	[06:07]
BTC-Mining	He'll just donate the proceeds.	[06:07]
*	sgornick has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)	[06:07]
smickles	i took that to mean a stat made after dec 1	[06:07]
smickles	"my bad" i suppose	[06:07]
BTC-Mining	After december 1, no STAT will include any ETF holding because data will have been removed...	[06:07]
mircea_popescu	right.	[06:08]
BTC-Mining	so it will not be possible.	[06:08]
smickles	no	[06:08]
smickles	it will, just STAT b/f dec 1	[06:08]
smickles	and keep it	[06:08]
smickles	it's a signed receipt	[06:08]
smickles	one local, one local bacup, one offsite backup	[06:08]
smickles	burden of proof is on the person making the positive assertion	[06:09]
smickles	(i.e. in this situation, the f.giga holder)	[06:09]
BTC-Mining	but that's the thing, Mircea said he would not accept any signed statement or backup of his database if asset information is disclosed after December 1st (from GLBSE part)	[06:09]
BTC-Mining	Not about statments from MPEx coming after december 1st because there would be none.	[06:10]
BTC-Mining	(Info about the ETF)	[06:10]
mircea_popescu	actually what it says is "held discarded as worthless"	[06:10]
smickles	yeah, well, i'm inclined to agree with that course of action myself :	[06:10]
mircea_popescu	"shares held discarded as worthless"	[06:10]
mircea_popescu	it specifically does not say what happens if they even later prove to have been mistakenly discarded as worthless (as in, are worth something).	[06:11]
mircea_popescu	but as explained above, this does not actually degrade anyone's ability to prove that they did own them at some point.	[06:12]
BTC-Mining	But what good would that do to be able to prove you owned them at some point?	[06:12]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26000 @ 0.00045764 = 11.8986 BTC [-]	[06:13]
mircea_popescu	now how would i know that ?	[06:13]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40699 @ 0.00046007 = 18.7244 BTC [+]	[06:14]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22700 @ 0.00046017 = 10.4459 BTC [+]	[06:14]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53175 @ 0.00046137 = 24.5333 BTC [+]	[06:14]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12469 @ 0.00046613 = 5.8122 BTC [+]	[06:14]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8239 @ 0.00046631 = 3.8419 BTC [+]	[06:14]
BTC-Mining	So the signed statements are pretty much... pointless, then.	[06:14]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25814 @ 0.00046695 = 12.0538 BTC [+]	[06:14]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43500 @ 0.00047111 = 20.4933 BTC [+]	[06:14]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8271 @ 0.00047152 = 3.8999 BTC [+]	[06:14]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29917 @ 0.0004727 = 14.1418 BTC [+]	[06:14]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6000 @ 0.000475 = 2.85 BTC [+]	[06:14]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11318 @ 0.00048 = 5.4326 BTC [+]	[06:14]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28000 @ 0.00048021 = 13.4459 BTC [+]	[06:14]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15864 @ 0.00048051 = 7.6228 BTC [+]	[06:14]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3600 @ 0.00048135 = 1.7329 BTC [+]	[06:14]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4644 @ 0.00048155 = 2.2363 BTC [+]	[06:14]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27800 @ 0.00048252 = 13.4141 BTC [+]	[06:14]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33300 @ 0.00048422 = 16.1245 BTC [+]	[06:14]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9712 @ 0.0004874 = 4.7336 BTC [+]	[06:14]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14978 @ 0.00048788 = 7.3075 BTC [+]	[06:14]
mircea_popescu	mmm	[06:14]
mircea_popescu	how do you judge ?	[06:14]
smickles	mircea_popescu: directly, if I had proof that i owned f.gigg.etf on dec 1, would you give me fair value of those shares at any point in the future if i relinquish my ownership of them?	[06:14]
BTC-Mining	Seriously, why do you even have them if you nor anyone else accepts them?	[06:15]
BTC-Mining	Okay, let's take it from another angle.	[06:16]
mircea_popescu	smickles i will (and always have) satisfy legitimate claims against myself.	[06:16]
mircea_popescu	now, it'll all come down to whether your claim is legitimate at thatp oint.	[06:16]
smickles	there you have it BTC-Mining	[06:16]
mircea_popescu	BTC-Mining your rights are your rights man.	[06:16]
BTC-Mining	What?	[06:16]
mircea_popescu	they're not a function of someone else.	[06:16]
BTC-Mining	I'm really confused... can't you just say if you'll honor or not a valid claim to any shares?	[06:17]
*	Descry has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)	[06:17]
mircea_popescu	no, cause it's a future question and i don't know the contingencies.	[06:17]
BTC-Mining	Ah, I see...	[06:17]
BTC-Mining	That kind of changes everything tho.	[06:17]
mircea_popescu	people were asking me, oh, what about upgrade to tera	[06:17]
mircea_popescu	and i had to stick to "all i'll do is pass along all that's passed to me"	[06:18]
BTC-Mining	I have two question then.	[06:18]
mircea_popescu	because i can't make future viewing statements on contingencies like that.	[06:18]
mircea_popescu	turns out i was responsible to do it, too, cause it prevented teh crisis from compounding to some degree.	[06:18]
BTC-Mining	Ok, so all signed statement has a CERTAIN claim value, but you won't pronounce yourself on that value until you know the facts regarding the future situation for such claims.	[06:19]
mircea_popescu	well yes.	[06:20]
mircea_popescu	and i fully appreciate it may seem insane or w/e, but the fact of the matter is we are involved in very complex transactions and the only way to do all this is to do it CORRECTLY	[06:21]
BTC-Mining	We could have stopped this conversation 2 hours ago if you simply and clearly stated it that way then...	[06:21]
mircea_popescu	or we might as well not even bother	[06:22]
BTC-Mining	Because that is PERFECTLY fine with me.	[06:22]
mircea_popescu	BTC-Mining lol we talked of this before, i have no way of knowing from the onset what exactly is the form that's clear to you	[06:22]
BTC-Mining	Even with 1 month delays or even 1 week delays would be fine with me then...	[06:22]
mircea_popescu	right.	[06:22]
mircea_popescu	well, i don't think it was wasted time, something tells me this discussion will form precedent for many later discussions.	[06:22]
mircea_popescu	possibly after we're all dead.	[06:23]
BTC-Mining	If you don't want to pronounce yourself on something with unkown variables, just state it.	[06:23]
BTC-Mining	I would then consider it fine.	[06:23]
mircea_popescu	lol you know i could say "if you only asked this two hours ago" just as well :p	[06:23]
BTC-Mining	I understood it as any signed statement by MPEx would never ever be accepted in any circumstance by MPEx.	[06:24]
BTC-Mining	I think I asked something like, would you honor a signed statement? Which you answered as "No"	[06:25]
BTC-Mining	But I guess you were answering to the litteral sense of my question...	[06:25]
*	mircea_popescu looks	[06:25]
BTC-Mining	[22:21] Will you honor the most recent data available as of who owns what of the ETF should the information be disclosed and you get access to the funds received through it?	[06:26]
BTC-Mining	[22:21] I guess would be were I'm getting at.	[06:26]
BTC-Mining	[22:22] 30 years later?	[06:26]
BTC-Mining	[22:22] lol srsly.	[06:26]
BTC-Mining	[22:22] ;P	[06:26]
BTC-Mining	[22:22] Yes.	[06:26]
BTC-Mining	[22:22] nope.	[06:26]
BTC-Mining	I think that part 2 hours ago is where it happened...	[06:27]
mircea_popescu	but you said yes to smickle's 30 years and i said nope	[06:27]
BTC-Mining	No, I stated afterward I answered yes to your "lol srsly" as if it was an answer to my question.	[06:28]
BTC-Mining	I never addressed smickles or what he said at that point.	[06:28]
mircea_popescu	ya well i dropped that part so.	[06:29]
BTC-Mining	After that statement, I think it went unnanswered and we kind of dropped getting anything clear out of it =/	[06:29]
mircea_popescu	anyway, ima clean this and put it up for later.	[06:29]
BTC-Mining	Well, if you don't mind, I have 2 final question.	[06:29]
mircea_popescu	sure.	[06:30]
smickles	oh gawd, i'm going to be in one of your posts looking silly again arn't i?	[06:30]
*	TheSeven has quit (Disconnected by services)	[06:31]
*	[7] (~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[06:31]
BTC-Mining	Suppose your ETF has 1000 units. Someone has 900 shares and a signed statement from November the 29th. Someone has 100 units and 10 accounts, and 10 statement from the 30th of november for 100 units, one for each of those accounts.	[06:31]
BTC-Mining	You would need the most recent database backup to identify legitimate claims would you not?	[06:32]
BTC-Mining	The first person never sold his 900 units and the other transfered the units from one account to the other to get his 10 statements.	[06:34]
mircea_popescu	transfers have nothing to do with this tho.	[06:35]
smickles	i think something flew over your head	[06:35]
mircea_popescu	you for some reason seem to be mixing historical data with active data.	[06:35]
mircea_popescu	i'm not about to delete f.giga.etf entries from the historical records.	[06:36]
BTC-Mining	You're going to KEEP the trading data?	[06:36]
smickles	it's still a good idea to copy the db dump on dec 1	[06:36]
mircea_popescu	of course ?!	[06:36]
BTC-Mining	I understood it as you were going to delete ALL data...	[06:36]
mircea_popescu	ffs.	[06:37]
mircea_popescu	what, am i going to log into twitter and delete tweets ?	[06:37]
mircea_popescu	contact everyone on irc list to the right ask them to wipe selected lines from their logs ?	[06:37]
smickles	mircea_popescu: do be sure to include my witty remark if you can :)	[06:37]
mircea_popescu	lol	[06:37]
mod6	that was a looooong way to get a short distance	[06:38]
BTC-Mining	Mircea, but those twitter/IRC log does not contain who the shares are sent to.	[06:38]
BTC-Mining	and account transfers are not public	[06:38]
mircea_popescu	BTC-Mining think for a moment, logically. in any possible implementation there'd be some dbs which hold records of what has happened. such as, who transfered what to whom, in sale or otherwise.	[06:38]
mircea_popescu	and also, some records that'd keep balances.	[06:38]
BTC-Mining	Yes	[06:38]
mircea_popescu	conceivably, one'd care to keep these later trimmed seeing how they're pounded possibly 1000s of times a second	[06:39]
mircea_popescu	one'd not give a shit about the former, and even keep most of them off the active db cause mpex doesn't need to review trade #5 at any point in november 2012	[06:39]
BTC-Mining	Aye	[06:40]
mircea_popescu	so then ?	[06:40]
smickles	mod6: LURCKER!	[06:40]
mircea_popescu	mod6 :p	[06:40]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7132 @ 0.00045764 = 3.2639 BTC [-]	[06:40]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28200 @ 0.00045764 = 12.9054 BTC [-]	[06:40]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5868 @ 0.00045762 = 2.6853 BTC [-]	[06:40]
mod6	haha, i was afk, then scrolled back. was thinking "didn't we just have this conversation an hour ago?!"	[06:40]
mircea_popescu	lol	[06:40]
mircea_popescu	yes, we were.	[06:41]
BTC-Mining	Aye, but that means signed "STAT" statements are not useful at all to prove ownership of anything at any point other than the moment it was created.	[06:41]
smickles	I know for a fackt that mircea_popescu has a cron job of rm -rf /home/user/mpex/db.sql	[06:41]
BTC-Mining	Meaning you need the actually trading statements to identify legitimate holders.	[06:41]
mircea_popescu	signed stats do exactly what they do : they show that at time X you had Y.	[06:42]
mircea_popescu	no more, no less. this is the most they could do, too.	[06:42]
BTC-Mining	So you would, theorically, need a database backup to be used in a claim. Signed "STAT" statements are not receivable.	[06:42]
mircea_popescu	what's not receivable mean ? they're not negotiable instruments, no.	[06:43]
mircea_popescu	but the chain of dispute is very simple and efficient. let me explain it.	[06:44]
mircea_popescu	I. Person complains about MPEx.	[06:44]
BTC-Mining	Not as in negociable instruments. Receivable has offering any proof of ownership later than the date it was issued.	[06:44]
mircea_popescu	either person has or has not a stat to back their complaint. if they do not, complaint is invalid.	[06:44]
BTC-Mining	Mircea: yes	[06:44]
mircea_popescu	II. MPEx reviews complaint. either it has or it has not ulterior transactions signed by person	[06:44]
mircea_popescu	if it does the complaint is invalid.	[06:44]
mircea_popescu	end of dispute.	[06:44]
mircea_popescu	there's no guessing involved in any of this.	[06:45]
smickles	wow, you have written policy, don't you, I've gone thru this exact proceeding	[06:45]
BTC-Mining	So you need to keep all transactions data for that, as proof we signed them at a later date.	[06:45]
mircea_popescu	smickles yes.	[06:45]
mircea_popescu	BTC-Mining yes.	[06:45]
BTC-Mining	And as such will keep the transactions data for the ETF.	[06:46]
mircea_popescu	the transaction (in general, the historical) data was never in discussion.	[06:46]
smickles	clever girl	[06:46]
BTC-Mining	When you said you'd delete ALL data for the ETF, I understood it as ALL the data. Including signed transactions...	[06:46]
mircea_popescu	i didn't say i delete all data lol. i said the shares are discarded as worthless	[06:46]
BTC-Mining	Wait... let me fetch the bit...	[06:47]
smickles	oh snap, mircea_popescu	[06:47]
mircea_popescu	wtf, delete signed orders create chaos. heck, why not, lets have fun	[06:47]
smickles	o	[06:47]
mircea_popescu	lol whazzat smickles ?	[06:47]
smickles	he's going to quote you saying something	[06:47]
mircea_popescu	no harm in that eh	[06:48]
smickles	02:18 < mircea_popescu> BTC-Mining i can't delete "all data" man. the signed stats will forever exist.	[06:48]
smickles	04:01 < mircea_popescu> you were talking about "data being deleted". a customer wanting to push a claim would be in no worse position today, on the 5th of december 2012 or 2015	[06:48]
smickles	04:35 < mircea_popescu> i'm not about to delete f.giga.etf entries from the historical records.	[06:48]
smickles	04:37 < mircea_popescu> what, am i going to log into twitter and delete tweets ?	[06:48]
mircea_popescu	ya well	[06:48]
smickles	04:46 < mircea_popescu> i didn't say i delete all data lol. i said the shares are discarded as worthless	[06:48]
smickles	04:47 < mircea_popescu> wtf, delete signed orders create chaos. heck, why not, lets have fun	[06:48]
smickles	last 1000 lines, every time mircea_popescu said delete	[06:49]
mircea_popescu	haha fun times	[06:49]
smickles	all time UTC	[06:49]
smickles	*times	[06:49]
smickles	maybe it was on reddit	[06:49]
mircea_popescu	i've not been on reddit today, you;ve kept me busy	[06:50]
smickles	mircea_popescu: is your reddit user private or something?	[06:50]
smickles	http://www.reddit.com/user/mirceapopescu <> page not found	[06:50]
mircea_popescu	nope	[06:51]
mircea_popescu	its beleeted!!1	[06:51]
mircea_popescu	(ftr, i see it fine)	[06:51]
BTC-Mining	Mea culpa I guess. You were talking about how it's unreasonable to keep the data indefinitly. I understood it as all the data. I pointed out I was annoyed by this.	[06:52]
BTC-Mining	[21:07] Keeping the data aside doesn't cost much logistically.	[06:52]
BTC-Mining	[21:07] well, it is kept aside if you keep your stats.	[06:52]
BTC-Mining	[21:08] mpex isn't designed to be a sort of glbse	[06:52]
BTC-Mining	I completly missed that second line.	[06:53]
mircea_popescu	:p	[06:53]
BTC-Mining	Well actually, I understood it badly.	[06:53]
mircea_popescu	BTC-Mining will now be punished to copy by hand http://polimedia.us/trilema/2012/bitcoin-wittgenstein-assets/ ten times	[06:53]
mircea_popescu	for misstating facts, jumping to conclusions and other crmes	[06:54]
BTC-Mining	I understood it as data would be preserved within the saved "stat" data.	[06:54]
mircea_popescu	nah, really, it's a more complex scheme.	[06:54]
BTC-Mining	Not that related transaction data would be kept and compared against	[06:54]
mircea_popescu	made out of parts as it were	[06:55]
smickles	mircea_popescu: http://i.imgur.com/lumDI.png	[06:55]
mircea_popescu	smickles seems we've been separated!	[06:55]
mircea_popescu	whoa proxy 404s me too	[06:55]
mircea_popescu	odd.	[06:57]
BTC-Mining	Nefario claimed not to be using user's funds. Theymos, thinking "wait, Nefario certainly does not have the money to pay for it, he probably used the users's funds". And went ahead making an official statement that Nefario used. Now that's assumption put forward as facts. You stated the data for the ETF would be deleted (A general statement which seems to indicate any data related would	[07:01]
BTC-Mining	be erased), that data would be kept along signed statement (as in all your data too, it was a bit of confusion in my understanding), and then the part with smickles where it went unanswered if you'd honor signed statements (not very useful if you don't keep your part of the signed data).	[07:01]
mircea_popescu	the fact zinger was about the legal stuff re nefario	[07:01]
BTC-Mining	As such, I might have been wrong. But I never presented it as a fact. Although technically we're on a public medium in this channel, this was a conversation between you and me.	[07:01]
mircea_popescu	BTC-Mining If you don't know the facts, he claims to have asked the FSA about it long ago but they claimed not to be concerned by anything Bitcoins related. (Probably miscommunication). Trying to go legal, he consulted again and was told to stop or he could be charged.	[07:02]
mircea_popescu	mircea_popescu you know this as a fact ?	[07:02]
BTC-Mining	Misstating fact would be me going right away without further discussion or confirmation on bitcointalk loudmouthing how it is a fact you'll delete all signed transactions for the GIGA.ETF rendering taking backups useless.	[07:03]
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mircea_popescu	hehe okay.	[07:04]
BTC-Mining	I came for answers and although your statements were a bit cryptic at first, I ended up with my answers.	[07:05]
BTC-Mining	As for the other part where I claim facts, I cannot actually claim direct sighting of those facts.	[07:06]
mircea_popescu	hey, so did everyone else. WHETHER THEY WANT TO OR NOT!!1	[07:06]
BTC-Mining	Only that I know of it from Nefario's meeting with the shareholder, for which the log is not disputed by any shareholder.	[07:06]
mircea_popescu	nefario has this bad habit of lieing through his teeth.	[07:06]
mircea_popescu	very self-righteously about it, too.	[07:07]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23244 @ 0.00045762 = 10.6369 BTC [-]	[07:07]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31616 @ 0.00045734 = 14.4593 BTC [-]	[07:07]
BTC-Mining	No, but some credible or related people have made the claims and have seen them. And I said the fact was Nefario CLAIMED it, not if he lied or not about it.	[07:07]
mircea_popescu	i've been so far perfectly unable to confirm much of it. but who knows.	[07:08]
BTC-Mining	My complain is people passing as fact something they have no credible claim to pass it as a fact.	[07:08]
BTC-Mining	Like theymos passing as a fact Nefario was using user's funds solely because "He thought so"	[07:08]
BTC-Mining	While what I claim Nefario claimed has a public log not contested by GLBSE shareholders of their meeting.	[07:09]
mircea_popescu	tbh, i thought that perfectly credible.	[07:09]
mircea_popescu	(knowing that he had spent glbse money w/o permission, which isn't disputed)	[07:09]
BTC-Mining	No one has any proof Nefario used any of GLBSE's users funds to pay for his lawyer. Theymos just decided it was so.	[07:10]
BTC-Mining	While the log for the meeting is not disputed by multiple people being witness of said conversation, which gives a certain credibility and Nefario said what he said in thos logs.	[07:11]
BTC-Mining	credibility that*	[07:11]
BTC-Mining	One is completly hypothetical and based on nothing. The other is based on multiple witness accounts.	[07:12]
mircea_popescu	it's in those same logs that nefario spent glbse/bcglobal money w/o asking.	[07:13]
BTC-Mining	He said he wanted Bitcoin Global to pay for the lawyer he hired for himself.	[07:14]
BTC-Mining	He denied that he used the users' funds for it and merely claimed to want the expenses to be paid by Bitcoin Global which had money that was not the users' funds.	[07:15]
BTC-Mining	Theymos decided to screw it and just tell everyone Nefario used the users' funds to pay for his lawyer.	[07:16]
BTC-Mining	At least this is what the logs afterward seems to show and he didn't dispute them.	[07:17]
BTC-Mining	I'd have to find it, but I even recall theymos later posting that he had no actual idea if Nefario did that, he just thought he probably did.	[07:19]
BTC-Mining	Note that my previous statement states that I "recall" seeing such a post, not that it actually happened.	[07:21]
BTC-Mining	Let me try and find that.	[07:21]
BTC-Mining	Well that's not it... but it's interesting nonetheless...	[07:21]
BTC-Mining	https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=115669.msg1307789#msg1307789	[07:21]
mircea_popescu	BTC-Mining im not even sure it matters that much eh ?	[07:22]
BTC-Mining	Not at all... Looks like theymos is doing something else completly on his side.	[07:22]
BTC-Mining	ah, here's one of them: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=118354.msg1283157#msg1283157	[07:25]
BTC-Mining	He only indirectly admits it in this one, but should be sufficient.	[07:25]
BTC-Mining	The point being, there's a difference between made up scenarios you have in your head and "facts" involving direct claims/witnesses.	[07:26]
BTC-Mining	And I don't like people rushing things as fast on the forum without any proof or reasonable evidence.	[07:27]
BTC-Mining	Hence why I asked you here for more info (got satisfied), instead of going on the forum creating more drama.	[07:28]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11700 @ 0.00045826 = 5.3616 BTC [+]	[07:32]
knotwork	* mircea_popescu wonders if everyone else is alseep/sexting/busy not giving a shit or quite the contrary, in awed silence at the sheer genius of the debate unraveling before their very eyes.	[07:54]
knotwork	Not asleep, just taking a long time to backtrack to figure out if the whole dramafest-recap-and-rerun was ultimately just something thinking "discard as worthless" implied or intended "deletion of records"	[07:55]
knotwork	s/something/someone/	[07:56]
mircea_popescu	well i guess all this is new, so people make varied assumptions	[07:56]
mircea_popescu	in the end it's not bad, sets precedents etc	[07:56]
knotwork	(yes we deleted the shares as worthless. Oh suddenly dividends turn up? no we didn't delete rcords, presto undelete...)	[07:56]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 300 @ 0.00046 = 0.138 BTC [+]	[07:57]
knotwork	oops s/yes we deleted/yes we discarded/ ... s/presto undelete/presto dumpsterdive/	[07:57]
knotwork	a technical loophole - we dis-carded as in its not writ on stone nor cardboard anymore, more of a mere paper trail ow	[07:58]
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mircea_popescu	moreover, it won't be showing up anymore.	[07:59]
mircea_popescu	you know, you can't just not show people symbols in stats w/o teling them in advance	[07:59]
*	tucenaber (~tucenaber@cm-84.208.55.32.getinternet.no) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[07:59]
mircea_popescu	(at least imo)	[07:59]
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knotwork	Or are you basically trying to buy them all back so that by the time they are "discarded as worthless" no one is stuck with any anyway?	[07:59]
mircea_popescu	no, im just trying to explain to ppl why starting dec 1st there won't be any f.giga.etf listed in their STAT responses	[08:00]
knotwork	oh right, the real actual effect is actual de-listing	[08:00]
knotwork	the "discarded as worthless" part is what? more a colloquialism? or a technical term meaning something specific?	[08:01]
knotwork	I have lots still in backscroll I havent scrolled back as far as yet	[08:02]
knotwork	seems maybe similar/related to the "a beneficiary was intended" stuff in contracts, mentioned in some pirate threads	[08:05]
knotwork	you got the stuff from Nefario/GLBSE for the purpose of others receiving it	[08:05]
knotwork	so even though it was you who dealt with Nefario the people you got them for still have claim through to Nefario, "in equity", maybe	[08:06]
knotwork	so I dont see much big reason why you should be prevented from bowing out	[08:06]
knotwork	maybe not an reason really	[08:07]
knotwork	but, you did use the term ETF rather than pass-through, even though you also commented maybe casually rather than stated officially/technically that it was kind of sort of maybe at least much akin to a passthrough	[08:08]
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BTC-Mining	Well, basically, yes. I was asking mircea about what was going to be deleted and understood his statements differently than what he meant.	[08:18]
BTC-Mining	In the end, everything was fine, but we each lost ~2-3 hours of meaningless argumentation.	[08:18]
BTC-Mining	Hmm, I somehow managed to end up reading a thread about some Intersango drama dating september 2011	[08:20]
BTC-Mining	[05:34] BenDavis, we're an agent	[08:20]
BTC-Mining	[05:34] so the answer isn't yes or no	[08:20]
BTC-Mining	[05:34] <@BenDavis> Are they YOUR coins, yes or no.	[08:20]
BTC-Mining	[05:34] <@Geebus> By that definition, our users have stolen 26200 bitcoins from us through transactions we have sent to them.	[08:20]
BTC-Mining	[05:34] <@BenDavis> the answer is NO.	[08:20]
BTC-Mining	[05:35] <@BenDavis> So. You sending them when they are not yours... makes YOU the thief.	[08:20]
BTC-Mining	It looks like BenDavis has no understanding of the concept of "intent" in the law.	[08:21]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9500 @ 0.00046026 = 4.3725 BTC [+]	[08:22]
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knotwork	ok done the backscroll. Sounds like MPEx should do like GLBSE ought to, which is, release the info to in this case givavps	[08:27]
knotwork	send gagavps data that will allow MPEx people who held gigavps shares through GLBSE->MPEx to contact giva directly	[08:28]
knotwork	s/giva/giga/	[08:28]
knotwork	since people were explicitly warned up front that whether the PGP identity they use at MPEx would correlate to their real identity was in their own hands,	[08:29]
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BTC-Mining	Nah, nah	[08:29]
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knotwork	possibly it might even be that MPEx can simply directly tell gigavps which PGP identity held how much	[08:30]
knotwork	I say "possibly" because I do not recall whether MPEx let me use as my PGP identity my normal one, my OTC one, whose publicly listed email address does not exist	[08:30]
BTC-Mining	It seems that if appropriate and feasible, and someone makes a claim with a signed statement Mircea finds out to be receivable, he will honor the claim.	[08:31]
knotwork	I think MPEx did let me do that, and if so, then anyone could have made up any ficitional but syntactically possible email address to make up a PGP identity for	[08:31]
knotwork	thus whether giga would learn who they are given their PGP identity is up to them, as they were told from the start	[08:31]
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BTC-Mining	I don't think mircea would do that.	[08:32]
knotwork	I am pretty sure MPEx does not refuse email orders that come from an email address that is not officially tied to the PGP identity whose orders that email address is sending	[08:32]
BTC-Mining	email orders?	[08:33]
knotwork	Because, I recall being annoyed recently at some other site or service or somesuch that rejected my PGP identity seemingly due to its email address (one that does not exist thus doesnt receive spam) not being where I emailed from	[08:33]
knotwork	doesn't MPEx take orders via email?	[08:34]
knotwork	I thought I registered there by sending a PGP-crypted email?	[08:34]
knotwork	later I say one could paste into a web form but was that the only way? was there never a send orders by email?	[08:34]
knotwork	s/later I say/later I saw/	[08:35]
knotwork	Mircea should not have to worry about later claims and honouring them	[08:35]
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knotwork	he should just send giga the list of shareholders just like GLBSE is theoretically imagined to be planning to maybe someday do	[08:36]
mircea_popescu	knotwork "anyone could have made up any ficitional but syntactically possible email address to make up a PGP identity for" << this part is correct	[08:36]
knotwork	but unlike GLBSE he need not do weird codes shit, since he told everyone up front that if they want to be anonymous they should create a PGP identity no one knows is them. didnt he? or am I confused having just read bunch of how to Torify email sites?	[08:37]
mircea_popescu	BTC-Mining back a year or so ago mpoe traded by email. i think knotwork isn't up to date with the new trade paradigm	[08:37]
mircea_popescu	knotwork nah gpg string is just submited as a post to an url.	[08:37]
knotwork	My OTC identity is webmaster@makemoney.knotwork.com, which deliberately is no longer spammable	[08:37]
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knotwork	some idiot service recently refused to let me use that identity because I sent them the email from a real email address that can actually accept email	[08:38]
mircea_popescu	and also yes, everyoen was told. it's in the faq :" http://polimedia.us/bitcoin/faq.html#18	[08:38]
knotwork	so there ya go mircea, just give giga the full data on how much of your passthrough each PGP identity owned	[08:39]
knotwork	was the scale such that some owners might have owned thereby a fractional number of actual gigavps?	[08:40]
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knotwork	or was it scaled so it can even actually come out as integers?	[08:40]
knotwork	regardless, giga can no doubt handle it, nd you can give him that info sooner than he hears from GLBSE how many actual shares your entire bunch of PGP people had between them	[08:41]
BTC-Mining	I'm almost sure he won't do that.	[08:41]
knotwork	oh is he one of the "I never sold anyone anything" like Goat not long ago said?	[08:41]
BTC-Mining	I don't see mircea going around asking the ETF holders if they want their information disclosed to Gigavps	[08:41]
BTC-Mining	No, not any of that nonsense	[08:41]
knotwork	their infomration wont be disclosed to gigavps	[08:42]
knotwork	only the information about a bunch of anonymous sock puppets / PGP identities would be released	[08:42]
knotwork	any relation between those identities and actual people the people were warned up front not to cause/create	[08:42]
smickles	i'm sure not everyone did that	[08:43]
mircea_popescu	knotwork there's plenty of problems. for once the scale is 1:1000, for another it wasn't a direct holding, and i see no good reason to pressure giga this way (which would be really abusive tbh)	[08:43]
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knotwork	I deliberately used my best known PGP identity	[08:43]
smickles	and why should giga trust that mircea_popescu only issued a proportional amount of the etf shares?	[08:43]
mircea_popescu	and in general it'd be a premier way to cause a mess. i'll pass	[08:43]
knotwork	so if I owned giga passsthrough shares I would of course suffer the consequences of having used a known identity	[08:44]
BTC-Mining	I believe he'll pay out what Gigamining's shares pay to the ETF holder if any receivable claim arrise in the future, where the info would eventually be disclosed and Gigavps would resume payments, and where the claimer has receivable proof he held ETF units.	[08:44]
BTC-Mining	and possibly other conditions I'm missing	[08:44]
mircea_popescu	knotwork this is something that MAY happen, but i'll still try and protect them	[08:44]
mircea_popescu	BTC-Mining i tell you, the shit we get involved in here would put to shame a full fledged commercial paper litigation house	[08:44]
knotwork	I was an early adopter invitee, so possibly the invite actually was contingent upon my using my OTC identity?	[08:45]
smickles	i think you only had to prove an ident was you, not have it be the ident for mpex	[08:45]
knotwork	though had I wanted to use an anonymous one maybe ...	[08:45]
knotwork	yes as I was typing	[08:45]
knotwork	I would have come here and argued for it, proven it was me	[08:46]
smickles	heh, sry to seal you thunder :)	[08:46]
knotwork	also it was more about issuing assets maybe than buying other peoples assets	[08:46]
BTC-Mining	Mircea, they'd all say: "We're sorry, but the criterions for your case does not make you not eligible to be a client of ours."	[08:47]
knotwork	he wanted well known/identified people to come look at his system and consider issuing something there	[08:47]
BTC-Mining	Where criterions are the applicable laws and the fact the case does not bring any receivable proof for the litigation to apply those laws.	[08:47]
smickles	oh, that musta been beta b/f the beta i knew of	[08:47]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2900 @ 0.00046026 = 1.3348 BTC [+]	[08:47]
smickles	or maybe another side of the same 'beta-coin'	[08:48]
knotwork	re "They", maybe "they" would say of course your offshore corp in a place that doesnt reveal corp owners is not anonymous and we will not hide its identity	[08:48]
knotwork	in other words, if you wanted anonymity you provided it to yourself if you didnt well sorry you didnt, not my problem	[08:49]
knotwork	your PGP identity is your offshore or not corp that does or does not reveal its owners	[08:50]
BTC-Mining	I meant that for any case where funds were stolen, you'd have to prove in courts who you sent the bitcoins to.	[08:50]
BTC-Mining	And that may well be denied by the defendant and impossible to prove.	[08:51]
knotwork	huh?	[08:51]
knotwork	to prove someone stole my wallet I have to prove where I spent its contents?	[08:51]
BTC-Mining	No, to prove someone stole your funds, you'd have to prove you ever sent it to that person.	[08:51]
knotwork	no, that would be to attempt to claim fraud or fiduciary negligence etc	[08:52]
knotwork	stolen is when I didnt send them to anyone yet I no longer have them	[08:52]
knotwork	sending them to someone who then fails to do right by me in regard to them is a bit more complicated	[08:52]
knotwork	it gets into why I sent them to them in the first place	[08:53]
BTC-Mining	Ah, sorry. I was not using legal terms, only the general meaning of stealing.	[08:53]
BTC-Mining	Yes, financial fraud.	[08:53]
BTC-Mining	Was what I was referring to.	[08:53]
knotwork	and I do not have to prove I sent them, the blockchain proves a certain private key ordered them sent	[08:53]
BTC-Mining	And if that person was always dealing from TOR, never tied the bitcoins to a transaction toward one of his bank account and denies owning the address, you can't provide a proof.	[08:54]
knotwork	and that same private key can also sign a digital statement to the effect that it wants them back and why	[08:54]
mircea_popescu	http://polimedia.us/trilema/2012/conversation-discarded-as-worthless/ convo of doom	[08:54]
mircea_popescu	for the ages.	[08:54]
BTC-Mining	Thank you, thank you.	[08:54]
smickles	oh no	[08:54]
smickles	i hit the paywal	[08:54]
BTC-Mining	I take credit for this mess.	[08:54]
smickles	paywall*	[08:54]
mircea_popescu	give it a week s	[08:55]
BTC-Mining	You've been immortalized, again?	[08:55]
mircea_popescu	and now gents, im wasted so catch you all tomorrow.	[08:55]
smickles	/¯(°_o)/¯	[08:55]
smickles	nn	[08:55]
BTC-Mining	Goodbye Mircea.	[08:55]
smickles	BTC-Mining: i dunno, i hit mircea's paywall	[08:55]
knotwork	gnite	[08:56]
knotwork	oh he has one of those you read too much things?	[08:56]
knotwork	take it as a hint that you read too much :)	[08:56]
BTC-Mining	knotwork, yes there's signed digital statements, but I meant to answer Mircea's statement about commercial litigation house	[08:56]
BTC-Mining	Where if you were to pursue some actual person for financial fraud.	[08:57]
smickles	wow, you get 1000 article views for 1 usd in btc	[08:57]
knotwork	nah it'd have to be a PGP-class action suit :)	[08:57]
knotwork	some lawyer pursuing the person on behalf of a bunch of layr-client-priviledged PGP keys	[08:58]
knotwork	treat it as them being the lawyer's sock-puppets	[08:58]
smickles	"Trilema happens to be the first blog in the world that switched to a paid model, imitated about a year later by The New York Times."	[08:58]
knotwork	no need for any of them to actually ever have been anyone else	[08:58]
BTC-Mining	Which would be worthless, considering most scammers in Bitcoin where always on TOR and used gpg identity not officially tied to anyone.	[08:58]
smickles	i'd be fucked as a scammer	[08:59]
BTC-Mining	Their simple denial to have any knowledge of it ever happening or holding the coins would be accepted and they're free.	[08:59]
knotwork	Yeah I learned years ago that I read the NYT and WSJ and such way too much	[08:59]
BTC-Mining	There's no proof, if the scammer was careful and went away with funds.	[08:59]
knotwork	too much being, once in a few years	[09:00]
BTC-Mining	No trace and no way to chargeback.	[09:00]
knotwork	BTC-M, also no way to get my coins without hacking my machine / coldwallet :)	[09:00]
BTC-Mining	Also that.	[09:00]
BTC-Mining	It goes both ways.	[09:01]
knotwork	or are you implying I was born yesterday? :)	[09:01]
BTC-Mining	Well... I don't know... I suppose each other throwing general statements we already know at each other just like that is quite pointless...	[09:02]
knotwork	:)	[09:02]
BTC-Mining	I motion that we stop this topic this instant. All in favor:	[09:03]
BTC-Mining	Aye	[09:03]
knotwork	Hitler! Nazi! Holocaust!	[09:03]
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*	Now talking on #bitcoin-assets	[18:12]
*	Topic for #bitcoin-assets is: Bitcoin asset exchanges: http://polimedia.us/mpex \|\| https://coinbr.com \|\| https://cryptostocks.com \|\| https://icbit.se \|\| https://therocktrading.com \|\| https://assets-otc.com \|\| list bot commands: !help \|\| Streaming trades only: #bitcoin-assets-trades \|\| Net Chart: http://bit.ly/RPclBi \|\| a biased message: http://smpake.com \|\| http://bit4x.com	[18:12]
*	Topic for #bitcoin-assets set by kakobrekla!~T42@89-212-41-49.static.t-2.net at Tue Oct 16 15:58:37 2012	[18:12]
*	vampireb has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)	[18:12]
*	Descry has quit (Quit: Leaving)	[18:12]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1139 @ 0.0004606 = 0.5246 BTC [+]	[18:27]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14861 @ 0.00046355 = 6.8888 BTC [+]	[18:27]
mircea_popescu	Some user used an SQLi to get into the System and stole the API keys from the users.	[18:41]
mircea_popescu	I will be honest:	[18:41]
mircea_popescu	He used the http://bitcoin-24.com/EUR/trades.json to get into the System.	[18:41]
mircea_popescu	this is nice	[18:41]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26539 @ 0.00046355 = 12.3022 BTC [+]	[18:53]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15961 @ 0.0004636 = 7.3995 BTC [+]	[18:53]
mircea_popescu	so who wanted to play monopoly yest ? smickles ? thestringpuller ?	[19:01]
*	Gladamas_ is now known as Gladamas	[19:05]
kakobrekla	for btc?	[19:08]
kakobrekla	how do you play that	[19:08]
mircea_popescu	i dunno they were asking me yest ?	[19:09]
mircea_popescu	i wanted to check it out	[19:09]
Anduck	mircea_popescu: #bitcoin-monopoly	[19:09]
Anduck	we've gathered people there who wants to play monopoly	[19:10]
*	tonikt (~tonikt@unaffiliated/tonikt) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[19:10]
mircea_popescu	a ok	[19:10]
*	Ignatius-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)	[19:12]
kakobrekla	play money or virtual money?	[19:13]
kakobrekla	:>	[19:13]
*	Ignatius-bot (~root@unaffiliated/ignatius-otc) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[19:13]
mircea_popescu	sadly it takes some download	[19:13]
Anduck	monopoly itself is via client-server but we sometimes to btc buy-in, winner winning all	[19:13]
Anduck	yeah its for linux/mac/windows	[19:13]
Anduck	do*	[19:13]
kakobrekla	what the avg game lenght	[19:14]
kakobrekla	whats	[19:14]
Anduck	it varies, 30-60min	[19:14]
Anduck	usually less	[19:14]
kakobrekla	dafuq, it took hours in rl	[19:14]
kakobrekla	even days sometimes	[19:14]
copumpkin	lol	[19:14]
Anduck	well if everyone plays without afking it's fast	[19:14]
Anduck	if someone goes afk after his turn it will take long =D	[19:15]
copumpkin	a fking what?	[19:15]
Anduck	copumpkin btw i did get banned for practicly no reason	[19:15]
Anduck	just fyi	[19:15]
Anduck	did not yell or claim anything to him via pm, it's nonsense	[19:15]
copumpkin	talk to nanotube about it	[19:16]
mircea_popescu	you got banned in monopoly ?!	[19:16]
Anduck	at -otc	[19:16]
Anduck	lol	[19:16]
Anduck	copumpkin: i will.	[19:16]
Anduck	it's just sad he's humiliating me there. and my friends, too	[19:16]
mircea_popescu	who ?	[19:17]
Anduck	"let's ban the kids" and bans 3 more guys	[19:17]
*	Luceo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)	[19:17]
Anduck	gmaxwell...	[19:17]
mircea_popescu	ahaha	[19:17]
mircea_popescu	;;rated gmaxwell	[19:17]
gribble	You rated user gmaxwell on Sun Apr 8 09:54:19 2012, giving him a rating of -10, and supplied these additional notes: hypocritical idiot..	[19:17]
mircea_popescu	ymmv.	[19:17]
copumpkin	hmhnv	[19:17]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23279 @ 0.00045922 = 10.6902 BTC [-]	[19:18]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25921 @ 0.00045853 = 11.8856 BTC [-]	[19:18]
mircea_popescu	;;google hmhnv	[19:18]
gribble	Muqaatil bin Hayyaan (d. 150H) - AboveTheThrone.Com: ; nevada - MesoWest - University of Utah: ; Philippe geubels - free download - (1 more message)	[19:18]
mircea_popescu	islam ?!	[19:18]
copumpkin	I'm a secret imam	[19:18]
copumpkin	(his mileage has not varied)	[19:18]
*	Luceo (~Luc3o@gateway/tor-sasl/luceo) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[19:19]
*	vampireb (~vampireb@blood.vampire.ro) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[19:28]
thestringpuller	;;rate mircea_popescu 3 market hacker	[19:34]
gribble	Rating entry successful. Your rating of 3 for user mircea_popescu has been recorded.	[19:34]
mircea_popescu	im a market hacker and im ok	[19:41]
*	tbcoin (~tbcoin@81.61.86.183.dyn.user.ono.com) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[19:42]
mircea_popescu	i hack all night and i hack all day	[19:42]
mircea_popescu	i cut down btc, i wear high heels, suspenders aaand a braa	[19:43]
*	tbcoin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)	[19:43]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24427 @ 0.00045853 = 11.2005 BTC [-]	[19:43]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23895 @ 0.00045811 = 10.9465 BTC [-]	[19:43]
pigeons	today's investment: https://btcjam.com/listings/299	[19:48]
mircea_popescu	i like the plural.	[19:48]
thestringpuller	plural*	[19:49]
thestringpuller	?*	[19:49]
thestringpuller	possessive you mean	[19:50]
mircea_popescu	of an ex wife	[19:50]
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*	darkee (~darkee@gateway/tor-sasl/darkee) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[19:53]
thestringpuller	mircea_popescu: do you think educationis welfare?	[19:58]
thestringpuller	public education*	[19:58]
mircea_popescu	i think education that does not include regular beating is an exercise in stupidity indistinguishable from welfare.	[19:59]
Diablo-D3	violence is not the answer, mircea_popescu.	[19:59]
mircea_popescu	oyesitis.	[20:00]
mircea_popescu	make a rule that all kids scoring in the last quartile of their class take ten across the buttocks	[20:01]
mircea_popescu	and get out of the way of sat scores explosion	[20:01]
Diablo-D3	not at all	[20:01]
Diablo-D3	tests do not work.	[20:02]
mircea_popescu	right right.	[20:02]
mircea_popescu	that's why the chinese have taken over the past 20 years	[20:02]
mircea_popescu	because tests don't work.	[20:02]
mircea_popescu	an' violence is not the answer	[20:03]
Diablo-D3	well, then you have to actually quantify what "china taking over" is	[20:04]
Diablo-D3	because remember, they owe the federal reserve more money than the US government owes china	[20:04]
mircea_popescu	eh ?	[20:04]
Diablo-D3	yes, most of the money china loaned us, the federal reserve loaned them	[20:04]
mircea_popescu	look around the house for some item made in the us.	[20:05]
mircea_popescu	and stop believing the bs.	[20:05]
Diablo-D3	okay, so they make shit, so what?	[20:05]
copumpkin	I'm not sure the US education system is trying to optimize for "made in the US"	[20:05]
copumpkin	not that I think it's all that great, either	[20:05]
Diablo-D3	copumpkin: this is true	[20:05]
copumpkin	it just doesn't seem like a particularly meaningful metric to measure by	[20:05]
Diablo-D3	its optimizing for "the US owns the company who made it"	[20:05]
Diablo-D3	we outsourced slavery to China	[20:05]
mircea_popescu	copumpkin are you familiar with how archeologists score dominance in the field ?	[20:05]
Diablo-D3	plain and simple	[20:05]
copumpkin	nope	[20:05]
mircea_popescu	they simply count the objects found.	[20:06]
Diablo-D3	mircea_popescu: okay, so the jews were dominant in egypt?	[20:06]
copumpkin	okay...	[20:06]
mircea_popescu	more roman, less celtic ? romans owned celts.	[20:06]
Diablo-D3	they built the pyramids after all.	[20:06]
copumpkin	and…? :P	[20:06]
mircea_popescu	and thus taking over.	[20:06]
copumpkin	meh :P	[20:06]
mircea_popescu	hey.	[20:06]
Diablo-D3	mircea_popescu thinks he knows things, how cute	[20:06]
copumpkin	they do it that way presumably for lack of better data	[20:06]
Diablo-D3	go back to "beating" your "women", and by that, I mean posting images and saying its you.	[20:07]
copumpkin	I don't really care what archeologists will think	[20:07]
mircea_popescu	copumpkin you're welcome to show your preferred data is better.	[20:07]
Diablo-D3	unfortunately, the time of archaeologists is over	[20:07]
copumpkin	if we pay a bunch of poor laotians to make our sweaters, and all our sweaters are made in laos, that doesn't mean laos is taking over	[20:07]
copumpkin	it means they're cheaper	[20:07]
Diablo-D3	too much data from this time period will permanently recorded	[20:07]
copumpkin	it also doesn't mean they're better educated	[20:07]
mircea_popescu	copumpkin did you just take a system, posit that it's wrong and thus proved it being wrong ?	[20:07]
mircea_popescu	cause im starting to dislike british education too by this measure.	[20:08]
copumpkin	nope, I thought you were advocating doing that?	[20:08]
copumpkin	I wasn't educated in the british system	[20:08]
mircea_popescu	i said the chinese were taking over, asked how do i measure this i showed how i measure it.	[20:08]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9548 @ 0.0004619 = 4.4102 BTC [+]	[20:08]
mircea_popescu	the system as presented stands. inconvenient as that may be ideologically.	[20:08]
copumpkin	mircea_popescu: yeah, and I just pointed out that it sounds silly with my laotian example	[20:08]
mircea_popescu	i don't see it sounds silly.	[20:08]
pigeons	moar child beating!	[20:09]
*	copumpkin shrugs	[20:09]
Diablo-D3	I dont want to beat children	[20:09]
Diablo-D3	just adult women	[20:09]
mircea_popescu	but i;'dbe very interested to hear mopre about this "us ultimately owns the money, and it lent it to china for china to lend it back"	[20:09]
Diablo-D3	seriously, delicious boobs, om nom nom	[20:09]
mircea_popescu	it was really delicious dmc-level of thinking.	[20:09]
copumpkin	did I say that?	[20:09]
copumpkin	or is Diablo talking?	[20:09]
mircea_popescu	no, Diablo-D3	[20:09]
copumpkin	oh okay	[20:09]
copumpkin	:P	[20:10]
mircea_popescu	you're missing out :p	[20:10]
*	copumpkin unmissed out	[20:10]
*	copumpkin beats pigeons	[20:10]
copumpkin	Dr. Dre Beats?	[20:10]
mircea_popescu	also we should ignore pigeons he's a troll	[20:10]
copumpkin	what does he beat	[20:10]
copumpkin	he beats your ears?	[20:10]
mircea_popescu	he beats your wife so you don't have to	[20:10]
copumpkin	I wonder what his doctorate is in	[20:11]
copumpkin	it'd be funny if someone awarded him an honorary one	[20:11]
copumpkin	mircea_popescu: but I don't have a wife!	[20:11]
mircea_popescu	he has a doctorate in gravity	[20:11]
mircea_popescu	copumpkin even better, imagine the expense and difficulty of beating the wife you don';t even have. dr. dre got your ass!	[20:11]
mircea_popescu	covered, i mean.	[20:11]
mircea_popescu	or w/e	[20:11]
copumpkin	good point	[20:11]
copumpkin	alright, I approve	[20:12]
copumpkin	I'm gonna go buy some of his beats	[20:12]
Diablo-D3	mircea_popescu: okay so	[20:12]
Diablo-D3	by your reasoning	[20:12]
copumpkin	I'm making beef jerky	[20:12]
Diablo-D3	black people, fresh off the boat from africa, were dominant in the south before the civil war	[20:12]
Diablo-D3	since they did all the work	[20:12]
copumpkin	Diablo-D3: don't you usually use another word for them?	[20:12]
mircea_popescu	did all the work != made all the itams	[20:12]
mircea_popescu	you need to stop glossing when trying to think, it's unseemly.	[20:13]
*	veemirc has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)	[20:13]
Diablo-D3	copumpkin: no, I reserve that word for the black people who bring up that their ancestors were such and that it means something in their daily lives	[20:13]
copumpkin	oh, I see!	[20:13]
copumpkin	makes perfect sense, carry on	[20:13]
mircea_popescu	he's not racist, he's culturally-aware debateist	[20:13]
copumpkin	yeah	[20:13]
Diablo-D3	mircea_popescu: okay so, the black slaves _did_ do all the work and make all the items	[20:14]
mircea_popescu	what such items ?	[20:14]
copumpkin	wooden dildos	[20:14]
mircea_popescu	lol	[20:14]
Diablo-D3	all food was handled by slaves, from the fields to the dinner table.	[20:14]
mircea_popescu	they made pretty decent music, which would count as an item for this conversation, except it wasn't valued at the time. arguably that gives them a leg to stand on	[20:15]
Diablo-D3	food is the single largest industry in the world, and has been so for the past 6000 years.	[20:15]
mircea_popescu	hence all the current attention being paid to niggers in the us.	[20:15]
mircea_popescu	food is however not much of an item in this discussion	[20:15]
Diablo-D3	so the _single largest industry in the world_ is not viable for this discussion? the hell?	[20:15]
Diablo-D3	thats some republican style debating going on there.	[20:16]
mircea_popescu	but you understand what we're discussing right ?	[20:16]
Diablo-D3	yes, we're discussing if china is dominant or not	[20:16]
mircea_popescu	right.	[20:16]
Diablo-D3	and Im of the camp that they're not, not when they owe us that much money	[20:16]
mircea_popescu	now, in china iron pots and pans handle most of the food	[20:16]
mircea_popescu	does this mean the evil empire of iron pots is dominant in china ?	[20:16]
pigeons	always seems to be an intelligent discussion when the n word is used	[20:17]
copumpkin	yup	[20:17]
mircea_popescu	pigeons you know the knights of ni sketch ?	[20:17]
pigeons	yep	[20:17]
mircea_popescu	ever considered it's a reference ?	[20:17]
Diablo-D3	china's GDP is $11 trillion, they owe us around twice that.	[20:17]
Diablo-D3	(thats a little over $8k per capita, btw)	[20:17]
pigeons	i love monty python too but i dont pretend it makes calling people that name any less silly	[20:18]
Diablo-D3	so either they're our slave labor (at worst) or we just own all the major exporting companies (at best)	[20:18]
mircea_popescu	you know china holds about 1.2 trillion right ?	[20:18]
copumpkin	china also makes baijiu	[20:18]
copumpkin	really tasty liquor	[20:18]
mircea_popescu	actually as it stands right now, the chinese own more of the us than americans do.	[20:18]
Diablo-D3	mircea_popescu: yes, so? they owe us around twice their GDP.	[20:18]
mircea_popescu	by a wide margin.	[20:19]
Diablo-D3	anything china owns in us, we own by default.	[20:19]
mircea_popescu	...	[20:19]
mircea_popescu	fascinating.	[20:19]
Diablo-D3	now, if they were to pay what they owe, yes, you would have a legitimate argument	[20:19]
Diablo-D3	now, normally I would say our investment in their country was a good one, except the federal reserve did it without foreknowledge of congress or the treasury or the president.	[20:20]
Diablo-D3	technically, congress could force china to pay back the entire amount now since the contract may not have been legal to begin with.	[20:21]
Diablo-D3	I would rather go for a debt swap however. they owe us slightly more than we owe them.	[20:21]
mircea_popescu	o rly ?	[20:21]
Diablo-D3	it would collapse the chinese economy, but thats not my problem.	[20:21]
Diablo-D3	they make about 5% annually on the trade difference due to the debt, or about $1.1 trillion a year.	[20:22]
mircea_popescu	i happen to think this conversation is a great argument for educational brutality.	[20:23]
mircea_popescu	and i do mean brutality.	[20:23]
*	copumpkin places a spiked baseball bat at the midpoint of mircea_popescu and Diablo-D3	[20:24]
mircea_popescu	nah, i can't be bothered to do it myself.	[20:25]
copumpkin	you'd better, or he'll do it to you	[20:25]
mircea_popescu	but i imagine a correct solution would be something like, make further endowments dependent on beatings documentation.	[20:25]
mircea_popescu	we're not equals.	[20:25]
pigeons	NO U	[20:27]
mircea_popescu	so there you have it thestringpuller. happy nao ?	[20:28]
copumpkin	we need to get Luke-Jr into this	[20:29]
*	jurov has dutifully read the scrollback since midnight.. it took some 2hrs :(	[20:32]
mircea_popescu	ahaha	[20:33]
jurov	wtf i just did	[20:33]
mircea_popescu	do you feel enriched nao ?	[20:33]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3561 @ 0.0004636 = 1.6509 BTC [+]	[20:34]
jurov	can't exactly name it	[20:36]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25878 @ 0.0004636 = 11.997 BTC [+]	[20:36]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30900 @ 0.00046437 = 14.349 BTC [+]	[20:36]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26190 @ 0.00046532 = 12.1867 BTC [+]	[20:36]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1700 @ 0.00046553 = 0.7914 BTC [+]	[20:36]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11100 @ 0.00046819 = 5.1969 BTC [+]	[20:36]
mircea_popescu	well i put most of it on my blog, too	[20:36]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23200 @ 0.00047029 = 10.9107 BTC [+]	[20:36]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35700 @ 0.00047077 = 16.8065 BTC [+]	[20:36]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7700 @ 0.0004739 = 3.649 BTC [+]	[20:36]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22622 @ 0.00048788 = 11.0368 BTC [+]	[20:36]
mircea_popescu	if you feel like you need to re-read	[20:36]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5600 @ 0.00048934 = 2.7403 BTC [+]	[20:36]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10000 @ 0.00049999 = 4.9999 BTC [+]	[20:36]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 199410 @ 0.0005 = 99.705 BTC [+]	[20:36]
jurov	MUST...RESIST...	[20:37]
mircea_popescu	lol	[20:38]
jurov	in similar situation i'd prolly just start to troll btc-mining or fell asleep	[20:38]
mircea_popescu	i am made of steel.	[20:39]
jurov	couldn't believe how it went on and on	[20:39]
mircea_popescu	good future investment, people can just be given a link	[20:39]
jurov	i think i'll bring it to next level and start tvtropes page about trilema blog...	[20:43]
jurov	and about this chan	[20:43]
mircea_popescu	haha	[20:44]
mircea_popescu	i am a great fan of tvtropes btw	[20:44]
mircea_popescu	iirc when a girl pointed that site to me i got lost in there for 30 hours	[20:44]
mircea_popescu	prolly read 500k words	[20:44]
jurov	you see. then, when some dispute is imminent, just hand'em this combined trilema/tvtropes tranquilizer	[20:45]
mircea_popescu	ahahahaaha	[20:45]
mircea_popescu	i need a soup nazi	[20:46]
jurov	MPOE-PR: Trope namer :DDDD	[20:47]
mircea_popescu	haha	[20:48]
mircea_popescu	an ACTUAL girl on the internet that everybody talks to as if it were some guy.	[20:48]
mircea_popescu	in spite of her right boob flippantly falling out of her blouse	[20:48]
Diablo-D3	fucking tvtropes	[20:50]
thestringpuller	she is hot as shit	[20:50]
thestringpuller	but she is mean	[20:50]
mircea_popescu	those two seem to go together don't they	[20:50]
thestringpuller	no one likes a mean girl :$	[20:50]
thestringpuller	:(	[20:50]
mircea_popescu	i like mean girls.	[20:50]
thestringpuller	my aunt was a mean girl	[20:51]
thestringpuller	her children are scarred	[20:51]
thestringpuller	:P	[20:51]
mircea_popescu	fuck the children.	[20:51]
thestringpuller	you dont have any children do you?	[20:51]
thestringpuller	;)	[20:51]
mircea_popescu	nope.	[20:52]
mircea_popescu	i'm like chronos.	[20:52]
thestringpuller	or spike spiegal	[20:52]
thestringpuller	"i hate kids"	[20:52]
mircea_popescu	i don't hate them, they just don't pay enough to be bothered.	[20:53]
*	UncleScrooge (~UncleScro@199.26.85.34) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[20:56]
pigeons	chronos had a son	[20:57]
*	Descry (~Descry@smart.twinriver.esu7.org) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[20:58]
mircea_popescu	eventually.	[21:00]
mircea_popescu	guy ended up teh master of the universe, too.	[21:00]
mircea_popescu	i think that's informative.	[21:00]
pigeons	yeah his son did. but some say zeus castrated chronos like chronos did to uranus	[21:01]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18000 @ 0.00048 = 8.64 BTC [-]	[21:01]
mircea_popescu	a well. ballz are overrated :D	[21:01]
kakobrekla	hehe http://www.room77.de/	[21:07]
*	Azelphur has quit (Quit: Leaving.)	[21:08]
mircea_popescu	what's that, german scat club ?	[21:10]
kakobrekla	http://www.npr.org/2012/06/01/154140277/berlin-restaurant-experiments-with-virtual-currency	[21:10]
*	Azelphur (~Azelphur@azelphur.com) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[21:10]
thestringpuller	lo	[21:11]
thestringpuller	lol	[21:11]
thestringpuller	whoa	[21:11]
thestringpuller	mooe stock is hot	[21:11]
thestringpuller	mpoe	[21:11]
thestringpuller	smickles: monopoly tonight?	[21:12]
mircea_popescu	kakobrekla o cool	[21:12]
mircea_popescu	gotta check it out next im there then!	[21:12]
kakobrekla	yup	[21:13]
jurov	live.coinbr.com looks epic nao :)	[21:16]
mircea_popescu	o hey	[21:16]
mircea_popescu	epic ? it looks like it's about to blow omg	[21:17]
mircea_popescu	i don't want to sell more shares ;/	[21:17]
kakobrekla	i dont have any left :	[21:17]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 82000 @ 0.0005 = 41 BTC [+]	[21:18]
mircea_popescu	haha i still have some left	[21:18]
*	Descry has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)	[21:19]
jurov	just computed value of my mpoe shares for first time in few months ... fuck i'm rich now!	[21:25]
mircea_popescu	haha wd .	[21:27]
mircea_popescu	i made some offer to forum ppls to get 10k share blocks a while back	[21:27]
mircea_popescu	some claimed but some didn't. a well :p	[21:28]
jurov	personal offers? completely missed that	[21:29]
mircea_popescu	yeah, it was a list of people.	[21:34]
mircea_popescu	https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=112694.0	[21:35]
jurov	all together, my IPO investment value multiplied ~ 24x in euros ... fucking can't believe it.	[21:39]
thestringpuller	yuuup	[21:40]
thestringpuller	congrats boys	[21:40]
thestringpuller	jurov	[21:40]
thestringpuller	broker man	[21:40]
mircea_popescu	jurov : mpoe.etf went up 1200% by the time it was dissolved.	[21:41]
thestringpuller	can i pm you and get broker advice?	[21:41]
mircea_popescu	and that was in btc	[21:41]
jurov	it clearly shows how inflationary currency those euros are	[21:42]
*	toffoo (~tof@187.67.173.22) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[21:42]
*	BTC-Mining (~BTC-Minin@modemcable037.34-22-96.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[21:43]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17900 @ 0.00048643 = 8.7071 BTC [-]	[21:44]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22000 @ 0.00048554 = 10.6819 BTC [-]	[21:44]
mircea_popescu	i guess so.	[21:44]
thestringpuller	sell into the wall! lol	[21:45]
mircea_popescu	there's a wall ?	[21:45]
mircea_popescu	not really any wall.	[21:46]
mircea_popescu	i checked lol	[21:46]
thestringpuller	not anymore	[21:46]
thestringpuller	there was	[21:46]
dub	mircea_popescu: wat	[21:46]
mircea_popescu	dub hm ?	[21:46]
dub	you like gage?	[21:46]
dub	that dude is so fucking retarded it hurts	[21:47]
mircea_popescu	sooo ?	[21:47]
mircea_popescu	pigeons iirc threw a fit too. why do you all hate gage!	[21:47]
*	dvide (jack@87-194-145-96.bethere.co.uk) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[21:48]
pigeons	cause there is enough diareah on the forum, don't encourage more	[21:48]
dub	joel wins that forum clearly	[21:51]
mircea_popescu	Miscellaneous policy-based unjust factors such as 'withdrawal within the locus poenitentiae'	[21:51]
dub	loupgaroux is just a cronic masturbator, contradicts himself constantly	[21:51]
mircea_popescu	for fucks sake.	[21:51]
mircea_popescu	latin phrase "in locus poen" becomes within the locus on wikipedia	[21:52]
mircea_popescu	ITS IN PLACE OF	[21:52]
mircea_popescu	dub i like his posts stylistically.	[21:52]
dub	gage I get a distinct paranoid schizophrenic hillbilly signal from	[21:53]
dub	mircea_popescu: sure there is some wit to a few of his posts but he likes himself too much and really doesnt have a lot of depth	[21:53]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3000 @ 0.000475 = 1.425 BTC [-]	[21:53]
dub	he'll rant and rave on one subject and completely contradict himself in the next post	[21:54]
mircea_popescu	well a forum isn't really the venue for depth is it ?	[21:54]
pigeons	not if you reward retards	[21:54]
mircea_popescu	o come onh! i ruined btctalk, is that it ?	[21:55]
dub	haha yes!	[21:55]
mircea_popescu	i dun goofed nao :(	[21:56]
dub	also, CP	[21:56]
mircea_popescu	counterparty ? or the other cp ?	[21:56]
dub	channeling that ciuciu moron	[21:56]
mircea_popescu	what ever happened to him anyway ?	[21:56]
pigeons	i lost the password for that account	[21:57]
mircea_popescu	it's kinda funny when various internet entities who we are expected to treat like, you know, as if they were human beings, with rights and all	[21:57]
mircea_popescu	fail to survive as long as some 4chan thing	[21:57]
*	teek has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)	[21:59]
mircea_popescu	http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/12eoxg/bitcoins_market_cap_is_at_wellover_100million_and/c6ui5li	[22:04]
*	Jackmaninov (~Jackmanin@ip235-85.wireless.lu.se) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[22:16]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8820 @ 0.00048137 = 4.2457 BTC [+]	[22:19]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26356 @ 0.00048792 = 12.8596 BTC [+]	[22:19]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4924 @ 0.00049519 = 2.4383 BTC [+]	[22:19]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.DICE] 1820 @ 0.00339944 = 6.187 BTC [+]	[22:28]
*	Jackmaninov has quit (Remote host closed the connection)	[22:31]
mircea_popescu	http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/12f27g/how_btcusd_options_fared_in_2012_graph_porn/ << in case anyone missed this	[22:31]
*	mrdavis (~mrdavis@d118-75-117-26.try.wideopenwest.com) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[22:43]
*	Anduck has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)	[22:44]
jurov	nice, but the II., IV., VI. graphs suck, sorry	[22:45]
jurov	you can't compare the two depicted values	[22:45]
jurov	nor get at least approximate numbers off them	[22:46]
jurov	for example in II , can anyone guess to which weeks belong the two short position (red) spikes?	[22:48]
jurov	mircea, maybe you should outsource all graphing (nudge, wink)	[22:50]
*	Jackmaninov (~Jackmanin@h-48-134.a189.corp.bahnhof.se) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[22:50]
mircea_popescu	jurov um	[22:51]
mircea_popescu	are you working off the small versions or did you click the graphs ?	[22:51]
jurov	magnification help a bit, but only a bit	[22:52]
jurov	*helps	[22:52]
*	Anduck (~Anduck@193-64-23-141-nat.elisa-mobile.fi) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[22:54]
*	Anduck has quit (Changing host)	[22:54]
*	Anduck (~Anduck@unaffiliated/anduck) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[22:54]
mircea_popescu	but what's the problem exactly ?	[22:54]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4199 @ 0.00048679 = 2.044 BTC [-]	[22:54]
jurov	nah, i don't feel like bitching today again, after that yesterday's letting off steam over jsonrpc :)	[22:55]
mircea_popescu	lol	[22:55]
jurov	if it bothers anyone else, please explain it to mircea	[22:56]
mircea_popescu	but as to "which week" : the simple way to interpolate 3d graphs is to look at the angle gain.	[22:57]
mircea_popescu	there's 140 px angle gain between front of front column and back of back column	[22:57]
mircea_popescu	making them weeks 20 and 25 respectively	[22:58]
*	jurov hits Alt-F2, kruler	[22:58]
jurov	okay	[22:59]
mircea_popescu	(the angle gain you see in the right hand edge of the graph)	[22:59]
pigeons	bah, not very accessible to the angle blind	[22:59]
mircea_popescu	ya well. supposedly 3d graphs look spiffier	[22:59]
jurov	supposedly it's also possible to make things both spiffy and clearly readable	[23:02]
mircea_popescu	well now that all depends.	[23:03]
dub	fuck I am old	[23:08]
dub	one 24 hour day at work and I'm broken	[23:09]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3000 @ 0.00048528 = 1.4558 BTC [-]	[23:09]
*	Jackmaninov has quit (Remote host closed the connection)	[23:09]
dub	in my youth I didn't need sleep at all :(	[23:09]
mircea_popescu	in my youth i didn't work.	[23:10]
thestringpuller	mircea_popescu: you dont work now	[23:12]
mircea_popescu	so ?	[23:13]
mircea_popescu	4ever young	[23:13]
*	Jackmaninov (~Jackmanin@h-48-134.a189.corp.bahnhof.se) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[23:13]
mircea_popescu	but i do work.	[23:13]
thestringpuller	nuh uh	[23:13]
thestringpuller	you sit around in your playboy mansion and party	[23:13]
mircea_popescu	haha or that.	[23:14]
mircea_popescu	it is CEO work.	[23:14]
thestringpuller	so getting blowjobs from interns	[23:15]
thestringpuller	sounds like my kinda job	[23:15]
thestringpuller	where do i apply?	[23:15]
jurov	for intern?	[23:16]
mircea_popescu	hahaha	[23:16]
*	Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)	[23:16]
smickles	juzus fuck. How many banking websites am I going to encounter which want me to enter a password on a page like 'http://dumbshits-r-us.bank.com'	[23:21]
smickles	plaintext pw is no good people	[23:21]
mircea_popescu	they have javascript rsa	[23:23]
mircea_popescu	do not worry your prettyhead mr customer.	[23:23]
smickles	this site in question has no js on it	[23:23]
mircea_popescu	smickles it's a joke, prolly insider	[23:24]
mircea_popescu	there's no js rsa	[23:24]
smickles	heh, got me	[23:24]
thestringpuller	smickles !	[23:27]
smickles	thestringpuller ™	[23:28]
*	veeminer has quit ()	[23:28]
thestringpuller	monopoly tonight?	[23:29]
thestringpuller	lets get mircea in	[23:29]
thestringpuller	take all his money lol jkjk	[23:29]
mircea_popescu	i checked it out earlier, but... i ain't installing softwarez	[23:29]
smickles	sure :) you going to actually be awake?	[23:29]
smickles	mircea_popescu: you don't have a laptop that has nothing valuable on it?	[23:30]
mircea_popescu	hm, that's a point. mk, lemme set something up.	[23:31]
kakobrekla	https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/397309_548804025146742_258329982_n.jpg	[23:33]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5197 @ 0.00048528 = 2.522 BTC [-]	[23:34]
smickles	really? people don't make meatloaf anymore?	[23:35]
*	JWU_42 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)	[23:42]
smickles	:D	[23:44]
*	smickles just took a ~20 line loop and created the same functionality in 4 lines :)	[23:45]
smickles	well, it's actually 6, but there are 2 extra lines for readability	[23:45]
mircea_popescu	smickles ok so listen, what's the website again ?	[23:45]
smickles	the website?	[23:46]
smickles	mpex.us ofc ;)	[23:46]
smickles	for monopoly? one sec	[23:46]
mircea_popescu	yup	[23:46]
mircea_popescu	haha cute :p	[23:47]
smickles	http://www.psmonopoly.com/download-monopoly	[23:47]
mircea_popescu	ty	[23:47]
smickles	it has the better client	[23:47]
mircea_popescu	be online in 10	[23:47]
kakobrekla	hm	[23:49]
kakobrekla	it if doenst require too much attention i can try as well	[23:49]
mircea_popescu	meh, it won't install and i dun have the patience to debug it.	[23:51]
thestringpuller	laaaaazy	[23:52]
mircea_popescu	hey, first time i touced windoze in years	[23:52]
mircea_popescu	i should get props	[23:53]
*	thestringpuller slow claps	[23:54]
*	vampireb has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)	[23:57]
*	Fiddle has quit (Quit: ~)	[23:59]

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