Forum logs for 25 May 2013

Saturday, 23 November, Year 11 d.Tr. | Author: Mircea Popescu

*	cosmo (~edward@unaffiliated/cosmo) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[00:01]
*	Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)	[00:02]
assbot	[BTCTC] [BASIC-MINING] 2 @ 0.605 = 1.21 BTC [-]	[00:03]
assbot	[BTCTC] [BASIC-MINING] 1 @ 0.6 BTC [-]	[00:03]
*	savetheinternet (~savethein@unaffiliated/savetheinternet) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[00:03]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 3 @ 2.43 = 7.29 BTC [+]	[00:08]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.4779 BTC [+]	[00:08]
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assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.475 BTC [-]	[00:11]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.477994 BTC [+]	[00:11]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 3 @ 2.477995 = 7.434 BTC [+]	[00:11]
assbot	[BTCTC] [BITVPS] 71 @ 0.000857 = 0.0608 BTC [-]	[00:14]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 28 @ 0.025149 = 0.7042 BTC [-]	[00:14]
ThickAsThieves	2000 new shares on BTCTC, lol	[00:15]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 4 @ 0.025 = 0.1 BTC [-]	[00:16]
aknap3	ouch	[00:16]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 6 @ 0.025149 = 0.1509 BTC [-]	[00:17]
ThickAsThieves	that explains the selloff earlier	[00:17]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 4 @ 0.0247 = 0.0988 BTC [-]	[00:19]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 1 @ 0.025 BTC [+]	[00:21]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 35 @ 0.024999 = 0.875 BTC [-]	[00:22]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.4745 BTC [-]	[00:22]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 2 @ 2.4311 = 4.8622 BTC [-]	[00:22]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.431 BTC [-]	[00:23]
fiat500	ThickAsThieves: aha, and explains the lack of movement elsewhere	[00:23]
fiat500	thanks for pointing it out	[00:23]
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assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.441 BTC [+]	[00:23]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.431101 BTC [-]	[00:23]
assbot	[BTCTC] [BASIC-MINING] 1 @ 0.5885 BTC [-]	[00:23]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.430001 BTC [-]	[00:24]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 3 @ 0.024999 = 0.075 BTC [-]	[00:24]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 50 @ 0.02451 = 1.2255 BTC [-]	[00:24]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 4 @ 0.0245 = 0.098 BTC [-]	[00:24]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 26 @ 0.02442 = 0.6349 BTC [-]	[00:24]
*	parseval_ (~parseval@ool-457cead8.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[00:24]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.431 BTC [+]	[00:24]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.43 BTC [-]	[00:24]
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*	parseval_ is now known as parseval	[00:24]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.43 BTC [-]	[00:25]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.4745 BTC [+]	[00:25]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 3 @ 2.44 = 7.32 BTC [-]	[00:25]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 106 @ 0.0247 = 2.6182 BTC [-]	[00:26]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 190 @ 0.0244 = 4.636 BTC [-]	[00:26]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 4 @ 0.0243 = 0.0972 BTC [-]	[00:26]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.4748 BTC [+]	[00:26]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.4749 BTC [+]	[00:26]
*	olive_ has quit (Quit: olive_)	[00:26]
parseval	I'm glad that worked for you inhies	[00:27]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [HIM] 3 @ 2.5 = 7.5 BTC [+]	[00:34]
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assbot	[HAVELOCK] [VTX] 29 @ 0.443 = 12.847 BTC [-]	[00:37]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [HIM] 1 @ 2.5001 BTC [+]	[00:40]
*	maz0 has quit (Quit: Leaving)	[00:40]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.47198 BTC [-]	[00:40]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.471988 BTC [+]	[00:40]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.472 BTC [+]	[00:40]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.4749 BTC [+]	[00:40]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [HIM] 1 @ 2.599 BTC [+]	[00:41]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.471979 BTC [-]	[00:41]
assbot	[BTCTC] [S.MPOE-PT] 1 @ 0.00075 BTC [+]	[00:41]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 4 @ 2.4749 = 9.8996 BTC [+]	[00:42]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 120 @ 0.0245 = 2.94 BTC [+]	[00:43]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 5 @ 2.475 = 12.375 BTC [+]	[00:44]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 1 @ 0.024998 BTC [+]	[00:48]
*	BitHub is now known as VanCleef	[00:48]
pgp	question: is there anything preventing the creation of a transaction for 0 BTC, but with a miner fee so that it would pickup up?	[00:50]
*	GordonG3kko has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)	[00:52]
pgp	the reason i ask is that all the passthru nonsense seems so cumbersome - seems to me like you could use the block chain to move shares around, no?	[00:54]
furuknap	Colored coins?	[00:54]
fiat500	the passthrough makes it easier to trade on an exchange	[00:54]
assbot	[BTCTC] [COGNITIVE] 3 @ 0.335 = 1.005 BTC [+]	[00:54]
pgp	but they're not fungible	[00:55]
*	GordonG3kko (~GordonG3k@gateway/tor-sasl/gordong3kko) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[00:55]
pgp	why not imbed them in the blockchain in the comments field - seems to me that it could be done pretty easily so your shares could exist in your wallet and could be moved to where you want	[00:57]
pgp	provided, of course, that every agrees on a format for such a comments	[00:57]
kakobrekla	23:50.17 ( pgp ) question: is there anything preventing the creation of a transaction for 0 BTC, < yes, with 0.8xx theres a min set... cant have txes smaller than i dont remember howmany satoshi	[00:59]
fiat500	pgp: some of them are fungible	[01:02]
pgp	yes, but you have to push the shares, requires someone to do it for you, etc	[01:03]
fiat500	blockchain is not the most efficient data structure for this kind of stuff	[01:03]
fiat500	when you are distributing dividends etc	[01:03]
jurov	pgp i actually stumbled upon similar txs	[01:03]
jurov	some outputs were 0	[01:03]
pgp	seems to me that you could use the blockchain for lots of stuff besides BTC	[01:04]
pgp	but if there is a min quantity, that's a problem	[01:04]
mircea_popescu	pgp 0tx are nonstandard	[01:04]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 3 @ 0.024799 = 0.0744 BTC [-]	[01:04]
mircea_popescu	(meaning they won't get picked up)	[01:04]
fiat500	yeah you could use it to communicate video data if you want but its not an efficient way to do it	[01:04]
pgp	even with a miner fee?	[01:04]
mircea_popescu	as to the blockchain shares, it's called colored coins. it has it's own problems	[01:05]
mircea_popescu	;;google why i nixed jazz	[01:05]
gribble	Why I nixed p2p, colored coins and all that jazz pe Trilema - Un blog ...: ; Why King County nixed woman's marriage to a corporation in ...: ; The five spot: Where can I see real jazz played in town? \| Las Vegas (1 more message)	[01:05]
mircea_popescu	it's not a matter of miner fees. nonstandard tx are not relayed.	[01:05]
jurov	pgp, for sharing big data in blockchain-esqe way, there's freenetproject	[01:05]
pgp	but to decentralize the ledgering of othe assets seems like an intersting application	[01:05]
jurov	ut as it has limited capacity, it forgets unused files	[01:05]
jurov	you did read trilema treatise on the decentralized exchanges?	[01:07]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 2 @ 0.02430001 = 0.0486 BTC [-]	[01:08]
jurov	so i think yes the ownership can and will be tracked by some blockchain mechanism	[01:08]
jurov	but markets will stay centralized	[01:08]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 56 @ 0.0243 = 1.3608 BTC [-]	[01:09]
pgp	I did not read the trilema article about decentralized exchanges - link?	[01:09]
jurov	[00:05] just below ;;google why i nixed jazz	[01:09]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 25 @ 0.0243 = 0.6075 BTC [-]	[01:10]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 1 @ 0.024272 BTC [-]	[01:11]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 16 @ 0.02400001 = 0.384 BTC [-]	[01:12]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 1 @ 0.0026 BTC [-]	[01:12]
pgp	yeah, so what about it?	[01:13]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 107 @ 0.02400001 = 2.568 BTC [-]	[01:14]
pgp	I'm refering to a idea about moving asset custody. For example, why not have a mechnism "like" the blockchain to move ASICM to whatever exchange you want.	[01:14]
pgp	or keep it in you own wallet	[01:14]
fiat500	exchanges have no incentive to implement that	[01:15]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.47 BTC [-]	[01:15]
pgp	but an issuer would	[01:15]
pgp	public ledger would make divs a breeze	[01:15]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 25 @ 0.0241 = 0.6025 BTC [+]	[01:16]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 50 @ 0.0242 = 1.21 BTC [+]	[01:16]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 46 @ 0.024799 = 1.1408 BTC [+]	[01:16]
mircea_popescu	it's a bad idea.	[01:17]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 23 @ 0.0245 = 0.5635 BTC [+]	[01:17]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 16 @ 0.0248 = 0.3968 BTC [+]	[01:17]
pgp	are you a bit biased?	[01:17]
mircea_popescu	;/	[01:17]
furuknap	Problem 0	[01:17]
mircea_popescu	you know this is diosxcussed in the article you apparently don't want to read.	[01:17]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.450001 BTC [-]	[01:17]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 202 @ 0.0245 = 4.949 BTC [+]	[01:18]
pgp	I read it - what are you specifically referring to?	[01:18]
pgp	problem 0?	[01:18]
furuknap	[00:17] Problem 0	[01:18]
mircea_popescu	that i am not biased, but in a perfect position to implement it	[01:19]
mircea_popescu	if it actually were a good idea.	[01:19]
mircea_popescu	it's not.	[01:19]
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furuknap	I'll still argue that you're stuck, though, mp. Colored coins in the BTC blockchain may not work, but nothing prevents an alternate chain, tailored to the needs of an asset market, to evolve. Thinking in terms of what is possible or conceivable now is limiting.	[01:19]
furuknap	*from evolving.	[01:20]
mircea_popescu	that's not the objection.	[01:20]
mircea_popescu	the objection is that this thing wouldn't actually add any benefit.	[01:20]
pgp	what is meant by colored coins?	[01:20]
mircea_popescu	creating some special coins which denote ownership of shares.	[01:21]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 6 @ 0.024 = 0.144 BTC [-]	[01:22]
furuknap	It would add benefit if it could solve problems that an asset market has or will get.	[01:22]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 4 @ 0.0243 = 0.0972 BTC [+]	[01:22]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 60 @ 0.0242 = 1.452 BTC [-]	[01:22]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 10 @ 0.0241 = 0.241 BTC [-]	[01:22]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 16 @ 0.02400002 = 0.384 BTC [-]	[01:22]
mircea_popescu	furuknap such as ?	[01:22]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.476999 BTC [+]	[01:22]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.477 BTC [+]	[01:22]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 8 @ 2.477795 = 19.8224 BTC [+]	[01:22]
furuknap	We may not see that right now, but none of us saw in 2008 what problems Bitcoin would solve either. Otherwise, we'd be called Satoshi Nakamoto.	[01:22]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.451 BTC [-]	[01:23]
mircea_popescu	no, actually i saw the problems	[01:23]
mircea_popescu	what i didn't see was the solution	[01:23]
mircea_popescu	not even by a long shot.	[01:23]
furuknap	That's one of the things that fascinate me with cryptocurrencies; it allows us to explore (and in altcoin land, test) new ideas for working with values.	[01:23]
mircea_popescu	but sure, in general speaking the world is not complete so you never know.	[01:23]
assbot	[BTCTC] [COGNITIVE] 10 @ 0.35 = 3.5 BTC [+]	[01:23]
furuknap	OK, so here's one problem that current asset market doesn't solve. Insider trading or what we consider unethical price manipulation, legal or otherwise. I don't have a solution, but a BTC-based or derived system may bring forth ideas that could control or somehow reverse illegal actions, as defined by whatever jurisdiction.	[01:25]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.4511 BTC [+]	[01:25]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.451001 BTC [-]	[01:25]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.451 BTC [-]	[01:25]
mircea_popescu	reverse ?	[01:26]
mircea_popescu	you want a reversible altchain ?	[01:26]
furuknap	I don't know, that's the point. If I had the solution, I would tell you, honestly :-)	[01:27]
mircea_popescu	well supposedly colored coins are the solution	[01:27]
mircea_popescu	what we're looking for is a conceivable problem they might solve.	[01:27]
furuknap	For instance, again not particularly thought out, bans on shares held by denoted key insiders before or during important events. A deadlock on trades with those shares could reverse the trade (to be declared to the buyer) if breach of whatever happened.	[01:27]
mircea_popescu	you'd never know the insider handles. kinda the point of crypto currency	[01:28]
TomServo	Would it somehow allow a failed exchange to transfer shares to another? Or is that not even an issue?	[01:29]
furuknap	Again, now you're thinking in BTC mode.	[01:29]
assbot	[BTCTC] [BITVPS] 4 @ 0.000857 = 0.0034 BTC [-]	[01:29]
TomServo	Or an owner of assets on a failed exchange, I should say.	[01:29]
mircea_popescu	TomServo well i don't see how it'd do better than what's currently in place atm	[01:29]
mircea_popescu	(see bitvps transfer)	[01:30]
*	VanCleef (~bithub@unaffiliated/bithub) has left #bitcoin-assets	[01:30]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 7 @ 2.45 = 17.15 BTC [-]	[01:30]
FabianB	not much difference between failed (dead) altcoin and failed exchange	[01:31]
TomServo	I will take a look. Honestly, I don't know much other than it sounds like the glbse closure was a fuckshow.	[01:31]
assbot	[BTCTC] [PAJKA.BOND] 1 @ 0.1071 BTC [+]	[01:32]
*	BitHub (~bithub@unaffiliated/bithub) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[01:32]
qxzn	Has anyone else noticed that BTCTC could easily stand for BTC Trash Can?	[01:33]
mircea_popescu	how charitable	[01:33]
mircea_popescu	TomServo bitvps was transferred off mpex	[01:33]
TomServo	mircea_popescu: I didn't realize bitvps was listed on mpex originally. Why the transfer?	[01:34]
mircea_popescu	list of holder gpg keys encrypted with owner's key publioshed on btctalk	[01:34]
mircea_popescu	http://polimedia.us/trilema/2013/sbvps-delisting-notice/	[01:34]
mircea_popescu	and https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=76506.msg1531701#msg1531701 for the actual thing.	[01:35]
mircea_popescu	unlike the horrorshow of glbse etc emails, this is the actual standard i'd say.	[01:35]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3100 @ 0.00072373 = 2.2436 BTC [-]	[01:35]
BitHub	hey mp do you have mpex upgrade/revampl plans for the next few months posted on your blog i could read about?	[01:37]
mircea_popescu	um	[01:37]
mircea_popescu	http://polimedia.us/trilema/2013/so-whats-the-plan-with-mpoempex/	[01:38]
mircea_popescu	that's about it.	[01:38]
BitHub	thank you :)	[01:38]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6518 @ 0.00072453 = 4.7225 BTC [+]	[01:38]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6301 @ 0.00072464 = 4.566 BTC [+]	[01:38]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6317 @ 0.00072539 = 4.5823 BTC [+]	[01:38]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7914 @ 0.00072567 = 5.743 BTC [+]	[01:38]
BitHub	ahh back from feb, not much changing from that?	[01:39]
jurov	!ticker m s.mpoe	[01:39]
assbot	[MPEX:S.MPOE] 1D: 0.00070412 / 0.00071388 / 0.00072567 (472070 shares, 337.00 BTC), 7D: 0.00065751 / 0.00069026 / 0.00072567 (3441360 shares, 2,375.45 BTC), 30D: 0.00064 / 0.0006983 / 0.00076528 (10796515 shares, 7,539.21 BTC)	[01:39]
qxzn	pgp: "I'm refering to a idea about moving asset custody. For example, why not have a mechnism "like" the blockchain to move ASICM to whatever exchange you want." this sounds a lot like ripple	[01:39]
*	error4733 (~error4733@ip-83-134-214-40.dsl.scarlet.be) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[01:40]
mircea_popescu	BitHub only been a few months. plans for years.	[01:40]
pgp	ok - so - why are "colored coins" such a bad idea? I am not suggesting any sort of p2p exchange, just ledgering and the ability to trade you shares on differenet exchanges.	[01:41]
BitHub	any new ipo's coming up?	[01:41]
pgp	ripple is flawed	[01:41]
pgp	but their consensus engine does seem interesting	[01:42]
BitHub	just analysing what i should do with the mpoe stock	[01:42]
qxzn	the problem is that shares on one exchange have different value than shares on another exchange	[01:42]
qxzn	mostly because of variance in counterparty risk	[01:42]
BitHub	i would actually like to sign up and use it, something different from BF and btct	[01:43]
mircea_popescu	BitHub yes, actually.	[01:43]
BitHub	but don't think its really suited for me atm	[01:43]
mircea_popescu	pgp for one, you will have the normal confirmation delay. for the other, how do you pay the miners ?	[01:43]
BitHub	cool	[01:43]
mircea_popescu	for the yet another, how do you pay the devs	[01:43]
*	toffoo (~tof@186.221.43.170) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[01:44]
BitHub	i really miss glbse	[01:45]
pgp	yes, but let's look at how it work for financial markets. I can hold a stock certificate in my name (personal wallet), or I can deposit with my broker and put it in "street" name (broker's wallet and trade it on an exchange - ANY exchange - in the US that would mean 7 major exchanges, but 20 or so dark pools. Every share is identical and fungible.	[01:45]
mircea_popescu	right	[01:45]
mircea_popescu	BitHub why ?	[01:46]
pgp	I don't care about delay, just the ability to move it	[01:46]
TomServo	pgp: I think opentransactions might be the thing you're looking for.	[01:46]
mircea_popescu	is that thing still actively tinkered on ?	[01:46]
BitHub	idont know it just exciting when it first was around	[01:46]
mircea_popescu	pgp afaik these days stock certs are mostly digital	[01:47]
mircea_popescu	you can "own" it but in the terms of, some clearance corp saying so and that's all there is.	[01:47]
mircea_popescu	nobody wants to administer the physical stuff anymore, too expensive, forgeries etc	[01:47]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.4749 BTC [+]	[01:47]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.477794 BTC [+]	[01:47]
TomServo	mircea_popescu: you asking if open-transactions is being tinkered on/	[01:48]
mircea_popescu	yea	[01:48]
TomServo	https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=212490.0;all	[01:48]
mircea_popescu	i recall looking at it early 2012 or so	[01:48]
TomServo	that was pretty recent	[01:48]
TomServo	and compelling	[01:48]
mircea_popescu	even sponsoring it a little.	[01:48]
BitHub	what if exchanges agreed to allow users from one exchange to exchange the same shares with another user on another asset exchange	[01:48]
mircea_popescu	but, it never seemed to go very far for some reason.	[01:48]
mircea_popescu	BitHub htye already do, for pretty much all mpex shares	[01:48]
mircea_popescu	you can trade the pt to the share and back	[01:48]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 3 @ 0.0248 = 0.0744 BTC [+]	[01:48]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 6 @ 0.024997 = 0.15 BTC [+]	[01:48]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [HIM] 1 @ 2.55000001 BTC [-]	[01:49]
BitHub	nice	[01:49]
pgp	i see	[01:49]
BitHub	some mpex BF intergration would be sweet	[01:50]
pgp	btw, you most certainly can request a stock certificate at any time - hassle and not common - but people do it for many reasons	[01:50]
BitHub	digital stock cert could be linked to a qr code or something <--n00b at this stuff	[01:51]
pgp	but having some sort of non exchange controlled mechanism to prove, for example, that there are no conterfiet share out there, seems like a worthy goal	[01:51]
mircea_popescu	the mpex dividend actually tests for this	[01:52]
pgp	a public ledger	[01:52]
mircea_popescu	as it won't push out div if the share count is > the declared count	[01:52]
pgp	or anonymous addresses	[01:53]
pgp	blockchain	[01:53]
pgp	or really, an altchain	[01:53]
mircea_popescu	listen, an altchain is not trustworthy in pricniple.	[01:53]
pgp	of anonymous addresses	[01:53]
mircea_popescu	it only becomes trustworthy if very much used.	[01:53]
mircea_popescu	tons of mining	[01:53]
mircea_popescu	etc.	[01:53]
mircea_popescu	this fetish people have for blockchains is being exploited atm by all the altchain scams.	[01:54]
mircea_popescu	fact is an altchain is trustworthy just for being an altchain to the same degree that written text can be trusted just for being written on paper.	[01:54]
mircea_popescu	paper will take anything, the blockchain idea will take anything.	[01:54]
BitHub	BF mpex intergration example, i could have an account at bf and mpex and buy shares from bf and transfer it to mpex for a fee, both exchanges share the fee. Now i can trade my sdice shares on mpex, vice versa	[01:54]
BitHub	ahhbitraage	[01:55]
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mircea_popescu	BitHub people; actually do this already	[01:55]
mircea_popescu	i dont recall whio's running the hf pt.	[01:55]
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assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 2 @ 0.024997 = 0.05 BTC [+]	[01:56]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 10 @ 0.0244 = 0.244 BTC [+]	[01:56]
BitHub	true? i would love to understand it	[01:56]
assbot	[BTCTC] [COGNITIVE] 1 @ 0.36 BTC [+]	[01:56]
assbot	[BTCTC] [COGNITIVE] 7 @ 0.36 = 2.52 BTC [+]	[01:56]
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assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 5 @ 0.024997 = 0.125 BTC [+]	[01:58]
BitHub	ore just see more seamless intergration between btct, mpex, havelock, BF	[01:58]
pgp	ok - so the sort of thing that is possible today is much like ADR and ordinary shares. They are convertible for a fee, they trade on different exchange, and it's a hassle to convert.	[01:59]
pgp	but it the only solution for dealing with DIFFERENT base currencies...	[02:00]
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pgp	BTC assets are the same currency, but same hassle? why?	[02:00]
mircea_popescu	because mpex uses strong ownership	[02:00]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 41 @ 0.0243 = 0.9963 BTC [-]	[02:01]
mircea_popescu	(gpg contracts, gpg orders)	[02:01]
mircea_popescu	and everyone else uses weak ownership (no contracts ; fiat ownership)	[02:01]
jurov	i think mp is the wrong person to ask things from... you want to have corporations that issue something like gpg-signed share certificates	[02:01]
mircea_popescu	and so at the interface between hard and soft you will have a gap	[02:01]
jurov	then it will be only a question to get exchanges to recognize them	[02:01]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.477 BTC [-]	[02:01]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 2 @ 2.477795 = 4.9556 BTC [+]	[02:01]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 15 @ 0.02400001 = 0.36 BTC [-]	[02:03]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 7 @ 0.02400001 = 0.168 BTC [-]	[02:03]
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mircea_popescu	jurov well basically listing on mpex does that exactly.	[02:03]
assbot	[BTCTC] [S.DICE-PT] 6 @ 0.0032 = 0.0192 BTC [+]	[02:04]
assbot	[BTCTC] [S.DICE-PT] 28 @ 0.0032 = 0.0896 BTC [+]	[02:04]
TomServo	I think open transactions is meant to solve these issues.	[02:05]
jurov	TomServo: is meant to or it actually solves? why friedcat isn't using it, for example?	[02:07]
jurov	if he hates "classic" exchanges	[02:07]
TomServo	jurov: I guess 'is meant to' at this point - it appears incomplete	[02:09]
TomServo	But it sounds promising with evidently having solved the cross server discover issue	[02:09]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 2 @ 0.024997 = 0.05 BTC [+]	[02:09]
jurov	mircea_popescu: there is no possibility for a corporation to have multiple counterparties on the same level as mpex	[02:10]
jurov	it's only possible to have everything on mpex and then passthroughs	[02:10]
mircea_popescu	well, leaving aside that there isn't a 2nd mpex to begin with, having no hierarchy means you'll have to face the byzantine problem	[02:11]
mircea_popescu	which means either blockchain or more genius	[02:11]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.477795 BTC [+]	[02:12]
jurov	yes i know, but i'm optimistic it will be solved long term	[02:13]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 31 @ 0.024997 = 0.7749 BTC [+]	[02:13]
mircea_popescu	maybe. i'm still not sure why exactly it is a problem.	[02:14]
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ThickAsThieves	typing from mobile, but it seems to me you guys are requesting a feature of inter exchange xfer,	[02:14]
ThickAsThieves	but not stating the problem u wanna solve	[02:15]
ThickAsThieves	my guess,	[02:15]
mircea_popescu	ThickAsThieves i been asking that for ~2 hours	[02:15]
mircea_popescu	i guess people are just keen to do stuff	[02:15]
ThickAsThieves	is u wanna arb without the risk of taking a position on all xchanhes	[02:15]
ThickAsThieves	and rhis is just masked bitching	[02:15]
ThickAsThieves	but	[02:16]
ThickAsThieves	what u dont realize	[02:16]
ThickAsThieves	is if u could do inter xchanfe arb	[02:16]
ThickAsThieves	sobeasily	[02:16]
ThickAsThieves	it wouldn't exist	[02:16]
ThickAsThieves	right?	[02:16]
TomServo	I thought the problem was not having to trust a third party?	[02:17]
mircea_popescu	haha that's a point	[02:17]
jurov	it's also trust. mp seems to think about it as nonissue that mpex is to be the apex trusted with all shares	[02:17]
mircea_popescu	trustless finance is nonsense.	[02:17]
ThickAsThieves	if u dont want risk buy direct	[02:17]
ThickAsThieves	closest u can get	[02:17]
mircea_popescu	im not sure why this is difficult to digest, but finance is fundamentally fiduciary.	[02:18]
ThickAsThieves	but then, no arb 4 u	[02:18]
BitHub	ghey	[02:18]
ThickAsThieves	so the moral is	[02:18]
ThickAsThieves	if u wanna make fukn money on arb, take positions and risk	[02:19]
ThickAsThieves	and make datmoney	[02:19]
mircea_popescu	i don't think at any point in the > 5000 years history of arbing	[02:19]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.477795 BTC [+]	[02:19]
mircea_popescu	anyone involved didn't try to minimize risk	[02:19]
jurov	yes. and then passthrough op vanishes	[02:19]
jurov	like brendio for example	[02:20]
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mircea_popescu	thats a good example cause he seemed real trustworthy all through and never had a good reason to disappear	[02:20]
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mircea_popescu	unrelatedly, if you've never tried having a girl sit in your lap while you're sitting on one of those large yoga inflatable rubber balls you must do so forthwith	[02:23]
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qxzn	< mircea_popescu> trustless finance is nonsense.	[02:27]
qxzn	^	[02:27]
furuknap	Interesting. There's actually a Devcoin AM PT. https://cryptostocks.com/securities/39	[02:39]
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furuknap	Wonder when someone will come up with an LTC AM PT.	[02:40]
mircea_popescu	didn;'t cryptostocks turn scammy or am i confused	[02:40]
Namworld	Brendio didn't really disappear. He eventually showed up after harassing him.	[02:40]
Namworld	He just kind of carried on when GLBSE closed and couldn't bother when GLBSE disclosed the lists.	[02:41]
furuknap	I haven't looked into that exchange at all, but the AM PT just recently launched so either someone is very stupid or very brave if this is a scam site.	[02:41]
mircea_popescu	furuknap it;s old, but there was some issue	[02:42]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 2 @ 2.469999 = 4.94 BTC [-]	[02:42]
mircea_popescu	recently i mean	[02:42]
furuknap	The site is trading with a massive 4 full AM shares, though (it's a 1/1000 PT) so I'm not expecting any huge market moves elsewhere.	[02:42]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 7 @ 0.02400009 = 0.168 BTC [+]	[02:43]
mircea_popescu	https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=201674.0	[02:43]
mircea_popescu	a there it is, not scam, hack-y	[02:43]
furuknap	Ah. The AM PT thread launched May 5 this year, though: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=196217.msg2039800#msg2039800	[02:44]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 10 @ 0.02400009 = 0.24 BTC [+]	[02:44]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.469999 BTC [-]	[02:44]
mircea_popescu	so 6 days before the hack	[02:44]
furuknap	Yup.	[02:44]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 10 @ 2.47 = 24.7 BTC [+]	[02:45]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [VTX] 12 @ 0.435 = 5.22 BTC [-]	[02:46]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 20 @ 0.02400009 = 0.48 BTC [+]	[02:47]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 173 @ 0.02400009 = 4.152 BTC [+]	[02:48]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 2 @ 0.02499 = 0.05 BTC [-]	[02:51]
ThickAsThieves	hacked twice if i recall	[02:51]
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furuknap	I'm... not... entirely sure this is the best promotional video Devcoins could get... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_Axa9_yXF4	[02:52]
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assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 2 @ 0.02400009 = 0.048 BTC [+]	[02:53]
*	wences (~wences@67-203-147-98.static-ip.telepacific.net) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[02:53]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12135 @ 0.00072567 = 8.806 BTC [+]	[02:53]
ThickAsThieves	https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=215490.0 <<< Chaang-Noi's next toy?	[02:54]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 32 @ 0.02400009 = 0.768 BTC [+]	[02:56]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 3 @ 0.02400009 = 0.072 BTC [+]	[02:56]
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furuknap	Cool. Of course, if Bitcoins goes to $1M each, then you'd also be famous for being the person that bought a Bentley GT for $375M.	[02:57]
ThickAsThieves	you could say that abiut all the dollars never spent on bitcoin	[02:59]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 13 @ 0.02400009 = 0.312 BTC [+]	[03:00]
ThickAsThieves	if i had bought bitcoins instead of lunch a few years ago id be rich!	[03:01]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 20 @ 0.02449999 = 0.49 BTC [+]	[03:02]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 15 @ 0.0249 = 0.3735 BTC [-]	[03:03]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [HIM] 1 @ 2.6401 BTC [+]	[03:04]
ThickAsThieves	http://www.thebitcointrader.com/2013/05/i-was-offered-550-to-say-that-ripple-is.html	[03:06]
ThickAsThieves	however	[03:06]
ThickAsThieves	he was offered $551+ to say ripple is awesome http://www.thebitcointrader.com/2013/05/ripple-is-now-tsunami.html?utm_source=feedly	[03:07]
mircea_popescu	lol what	[03:07]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [VTX] 1 @ 0.4399 BTC [+]	[03:08]
ThickAsThieves	im gonna advertise there too fukit	[03:08]
furuknap	I'm not joking, but despite having tried, I still don't understand Ripple.	[03:09]
furuknap	As in, I have no idea how the fuck it works.	[03:09]
ThickAsThieves	by design	[03:09]
mircea_popescu	"the same accusations"	[03:09]
mircea_popescu	well... no. not at all.	[03:09]
mircea_popescu	what a fuckwit that guy. "not open" "centralised" vs "ponzi" how are these "the same" ?	[03:10]
ThickAsThieves	thats why tradefortress scammed everyone	[03:10]
ThickAsThieves	using ripple	[03:10]
mircea_popescu	Ripple is led by Jed McCaleb (founder of MtGox, eDonkey) and Chris Larsen (e-loan, Prosper.com), both successful businessmen who do not have an interest in sullying their good name	[03:10]
mircea_popescu	herp. jed is still buthurt over the mtgox thing	[03:10]
mircea_popescu	(and he was the "auditor" in the 1st mtgox heist, incidentally)	[03:11]
ThickAsThieves	yeah and prosper really took off	[03:11]
ThickAsThieves	i wonder who gets more paybacks prosper or btcjam	[03:11]
mircea_popescu	i'd blog about that retard but the problem is the 1% idiots that read trilema and don't understand wtf would probably triple his trafic	[03:11]
ThickAsThieves	i dabbled in prosper years ago	[03:13]
ThickAsThieves	i think i made $20 profit	[03:13]
mircea_popescu	pm btw.	[03:14]
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assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 1 @ 0.02449999 BTC [+]	[03:17]
assbot	[BTCTC] [MININGCO.ETF] 1 @ 0.73999 BTC [-]	[03:17]
assbot	[BTCTC] [MININGCO.ETF] 1 @ 0.74 BTC [+]	[03:17]
Namworld	The thing is, XRP isn't really a currency. It's tokens to make transactions...	[03:19]
Namworld	and they're not really being sold	[03:19]
Namworld	The issue is, Ripple is just plain stupid...	[03:19]
furuknap	Wow. Crypto-trade may actually launch in less than 24 hours. I'd buy shares, but I can't seem to get my jaw back up from the floor.	[03:19]
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Namworld	The heck is Crypto-trade?	[03:19]
furuknap	Ever heard trhe term vaporware?	[03:20]
furuknap	They'll shortly be upgrading the wikipedia article to list Crypto-Trade as a typical example.	[03:20]
sikbwoy	vaporware+BFL?	[03:20]
sikbwoy	*vaporware=BFL?	[03:21]
Namworld	All money on Ripple is just IOUs... you have to trust certain issuers... which tends to be exchanges... which trade virtual currencies and fiats...	[03:21]
sikbwoy	lol	[03:21]
furuknap	I still don't get it. I get an IUO from whom and why could that be worth squat to me?	[03:21]
Namworld	So Ripple is kinda superfluous...	[03:21]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.47 BTC [+]	[03:22]
Namworld	It's worth something if the IOU issuer is an exchange, like BitStamp for example	[03:22]
Namworld	since you can deposit this IOU at that exchange for BTC or USD or whatever	[03:22]
furuknap	So... You run exchange X and I buy an IOU from you to sell it back to you? In other words, a plain, regular loan?	[03:23]
Namworld	You could, for example, trade a Gox 1 BTC IOU on ripple for 130 USD IOUs from BitStamp with another Ripple user.	[03:23]
Namworld	But that's just plain stupid	[03:23]
Namworld	Since all virtual currencies can be just sent directly to that other exchange	[03:23]
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Namworld	You could trade one exchange's fiat IOU for another exchange's other fiat IOUs	[03:24]
Namworld	That's not easy...	[03:24]
Namworld	BUT	[03:24]
furuknap	Yeah, because why would I want to do that? I could just trade it for USD or any other currency.	[03:24]
Namworld	What exchange would do that?	[03:24]
furuknap	Nobody, but my friends would buy a BTC from me an pay me in Norwegian kroner.	[03:24]
Namworld	They can't track who traded the fiat and just add it back to an account? AML clusterfuck	[03:24]
ericmuyser	banks work on IOU's. people give loans to eachother. ripple is real life, without the cash in hand	[03:24]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [VTX] 1 @ 0.4399 BTC [+]	[03:25]
furuknap	I must be utterly stupid...	[03:25]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.469 BTC [-]	[03:25]
Namworld	Ripple can render fiat transfer easiers, by allowing fiat from Bank/Exchange X to be traded with someone else for fiat from Bank/Exchange Y. Then each can instantly deposit the IOU at that bank.	[03:25]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 4 @ 2.47 = 9.88 BTC [+]	[03:26]
furuknap	So... I start with 1 BTC. What benefit will Ripple give me that I can't get form just having and using my BTC?	[03:26]
Namworld	But that's a complete money laundering headache	[03:26]
Namworld	Ripple is not a currency. It's not a type of money. It's a platform.	[03:26]
Namworld	To trade various currencies	[03:26]
Namworld	But Ripple itself doesn't hold any money	[03:27]
ericmuyser	furuknap: it's an exchange and it works well to get people OUT of fiat. otherwise nothing?	[03:27]
Namworld	Issuers issue IOUs on Ripple	[03:27]
Namworld	People can trade IOUs from Issuer X for IOUs from other issuers	[03:27]
Namworld	and then cash in those IOUs at the issuing bank/exchange/whatever	[03:27]
furuknap	And you have to trust that issuer. I understand so far. I just don't understand what it gives me as a normal person, having X of currency Y, beyond the ability to change X of Y to Z of W.	[03:27]
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Namworld	Because transfering money from one exchange to another can be hard if you want to avoid fees for example.	[03:28]
furuknap	And that's where it all falls apart for me...	[03:28]
Namworld	Suppose you want for example to withdraw USD from Gox to get USD on BTC-e where BTC is cheaper.	[03:28]
furuknap	Why would I want to transfer my money through an exchange? I just want to buy a cup of coffee or tip the stripper...	[03:29]
Namworld	If both were issuing fiat IOUs on Ripple, people could theorically trade those on Ripple	[03:29]
Namworld	Ripple is not made to make purchases	[03:29]
Namworld	It's a platform to move money around	[03:29]
furuknap	Hang on... Is this just an elaborate currency exchange? That's it?	[03:29]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 5 @ 0.02449999 = 0.1225 BTC [+]	[03:30]
Namworld	Yes	[03:30]
Namworld	A currency exchange which skips banks and other things	[03:30]
furuknap	Holy fuck. And we're blowing ourselves over that? Why not just use BTC or LTC or whatever? Geez.	[03:30]
Namworld	Cause people are retarded and use XRPs like a currency	[03:30]
Namworld	When they're meant to be tokens to make the transactions	[03:31]
ericmuyser	um	[03:31]
assbot	[BTCTC] [S.DICE-PT] 1 @ 0.0032 BTC [+]	[03:31]
ericmuyser	they're tokens yes	[03:31]
ericmuyser	but I think it's in the grand design to use them as payment	[03:31]
ericmuyser	and there's no reason you can't, it just hasn't been built yet	[03:31]
Namworld	What I'm saying	[03:31]
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furuknap	So... One more question... If they are tokens, why does it matter that the founders premined and kept XX% themselves? It's like having a gazillion postage stamps that can be used only to send mail but with no other value?	[03:32]
Namworld	wait what? It's in the grand design? Why would people make payments in XRPs?	[03:32]
ericmuyser	it is built to make transactions, but it's currently only an exchange because no one has adopted it, in the same way no one has adopted litecoin - is litecoin a currency?	[03:32]
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furuknap	Litecoin has been adopted! I'm a Litecoin fanboi so don't speak badly of my second mistress.	[03:33]
Namworld	XRPs are already being used as a currency, just like litecoins	[03:33]
ericmuyser	Namworld: because at some point they expect people to have a wallet of xrp of course, the same as btc. but they could make payments from their ripple wallet using btc. either way, you're in ripple world	[03:33]
Namworld	I guess XRP could be used as a default currency	[03:33]
ericmuyser	currency for what? it's being converted as a currency on an exchange but not used in transactions	[03:33]
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assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 3 @ 2.47 = 7.41 BTC [+]	[03:34]
*	KingCoin_ (~anna@CPE0026f3a199e0-CM0026f3a199dd.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[03:34]
Namworld	Trade your USD IOUs from Bank of America for XRP, use XRP to buy fiat from some other bank. Redeem fiat at 2nd bank.	[03:34]
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ericmuyser	that doesn't make it a currency? it's an asset	[03:34]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11400 @ 0.00072783 = 8.2973 BTC [+]	[03:34]
furuknap	Yeah, which is exactly what I'm trying to avoid by using BTC.	[03:34]
ericmuyser	whatever you call it, it's not used in transactions directly but that is the plan	[03:35]
Namworld	Could be used as a cement between various IOUs, since it might be hard to find a trader to trade your IOUs for another specific IOU	[03:35]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 25 @ 2.47 = 61.75 BTC [+]	[03:35]
furuknap	Well, I'm officially, completely, and utterly underwhelmed. Thanks for the explanations, guys.	[03:36]
Namworld	But again, it's kind of absurd... because it skip every darn anti-money laundering stuff. What kind of institution would start issuing IOUs on Ripple they can't track, and let anyone cash them in?	[03:36]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 9 @ 0.02499 = 0.2249 BTC [+]	[03:36]
furuknap	I think anyone who issues bearer bonds?	[03:37]
ericmuyser	I heard they intend on allowing more strict IOU configuration but I have no source for that	[03:37]
ericmuyser	but if they dont ya it's pretty crazy	[03:37]
furuknap	But these IOUs are fungible, right?	[03:38]
ericmuyser	furuknap: if an exchange or another person trusts you	[03:39]
ericmuyser	i can go on there and say i have a million dollars or 100 baseball collectors cards, and you can say you trust i have them and what you value them at	[03:39]
mircea_popescu	The issue is, Ripple is just plain stupid... << the more i learn about it the righter this seems	[03:40]
ericmuyser	i would trust my friend has 100 bucks at any point to lend me, so i add him to my trust network	[03:40]
furuknap	Sure, but if I get a $1000 IOU from BofA, I can sell $124 of that without having to get BofA to issue a $124 and a $876 IOU.	[03:40]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 2 @ 0.024997 = 0.05 BTC [+]	[03:40]
ericmuyser	i trust he has the fiat and when i make the exchange he will give it to me IRL	[03:40]
kakobrekla	yeah like banks trusted that ppl will repay their house loans or smth	[03:40]
Namworld	That's not really because it wouldn't be great to easily move fiat around. It's because fiat holders are AML regulated.	[03:40]
Namworld	Plus replacing fiat for Bitcoin or any alternative seems better.	[03:41]
Namworld	Then we can just send that around	[03:41]
Namworld	Painlessly	[03:41]
mircea_popescu	ericmuyser the unsurmontable problem is that ripple trust is blind	[03:42]
furuknap	Exactly. So, for anyone other than currency traders and speculators, I can't really see any benefit to Ripple. It doesn't have value beyond the value of a stamp, it doesn't solve any problems that haven't already been solved, and it's just another headache for users when they want to just pay the damn bill at the restaurant.	[03:42]
mircea_popescu	you trust me.	[03:42]
mircea_popescu	you trust me to THE FUCK WHAT ?	[03:42]
ericmuyser	mircea_popescu: i do not trust you at all.	[03:42]
mircea_popescu	as far as ripple is concerned, you trust me, end of story.	[03:42]
mircea_popescu	whether i make 100 or 100 bn dollars, you've trusted me already	[03:42]
mircea_popescu	irl trust is always to something. i trust you to suck my cock, but not to bake me a pie.	[03:43]
mircea_popescu	so no, ripple is not like real life in any sense.	[03:43]
chad6	any theories for the recent run-up in the price of N	[03:43]
chad6	Btc?	[03:44]
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ericmuyser	I would like to see approval requests/convos and whatever else. i trust a friend with 100 but i want to review what i'm trusting him with and for what, if it's a good reason etc.	[03:44]
mircea_popescu	chad6 130ish isn't a runup rly	[03:44]
Namworld	Actually you can trust each issuer for a different amount...	[03:44]
ericmuyser	and i dont want my friend giving away my money to a friend in need	[03:44]
ericmuyser	unless i justify it	[03:44]
mircea_popescu	Namworld but can you enforce that much is how much they make ?	[03:44]
ericmuyser	just like real life	[03:44]
mod6	chad6?	[03:44]
*	wences (~wences@204.11.229.46.static.etheric.net) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[03:44]
mircea_popescu	the way it works now, he can make 100bn and just give you 10k of that	[03:44]
mircea_popescu	you don't trusty him with 10k out ofg 100 bn. you trust him wioth 10k total.	[03:45]
ericmuyser	mircea_popescu: you're talking about loans and interest?	[03:45]
mircea_popescu	nope.	[03:45]
Namworld	No, the trust level is just how much money they owe you you can tolerate... not the total they issue... sadly	[03:45]
ericmuyser	who cares what he makes	[03:45]
ericmuyser	you give him 10k, you get 10k back	[03:45]
mircea_popescu	Namworld well it sinks the entire thing dunnit.	[03:45]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.47 BTC [+]	[03:46]
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mircea_popescu	i mean, remember that guy issued like 10k btc of debt to dozens of people didn't know about weach other ?	[03:46]
mircea_popescu	imsaguy was handling the (failed) wind-up a year ago	[03:46]
ericmuyser	that does happen in real life	[03:46]
ericmuyser	it's kind of irrelevant to the system	[03:47]
mircea_popescu	ericmuyser i kind of suspect you're not quite qualified to discuss systems.	[03:47]
Namworld	It depends... basically if you trust someone for let's say 1000 USD, you're saying you trust the person not to abuse the issuing IOU feature AND you're willing to risk up to 1000 USD on your belief, as such if the issuer is abusive, you can lose no more than 1000 USD.	[03:47]
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ericmuyser	Namworld: exactly	[03:47]
Namworld	The problem is no one else recognize these IOUs unless they also trust the same guy.	[03:48]
Namworld	Effectively, only large entity will work at all as issuers	[03:48]
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assbot	[BTCTC] [BASIC-MINING] 3 @ 0.55 = 1.65 BTC [-]	[03:48]
mircea_popescu	but! you are in effect saying you will take X of this person's issuance with no backing.	[03:48]
ericmuyser	or they trust someone who trusts that guy	[03:49]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 11 @ 0.024997 = 0.275 BTC [+]	[03:49]
ericmuyser	then that person they trust is the one taking the loan with the other guy	[03:49]
ericmuyser	it sucks	[03:49]
Namworld	You're saying you trust the issuer to not issue more than what they can back, and that you'd be willing to bet up to X on that.	[03:49]
mircea_popescu	right. and you get nothing for this	[03:49]
Namworld	Not that there's no backing... obviously if you're willing to accept X IOUs, it assumes you're also trusting that the issue has backings	[03:50]
mircea_popescu	you're basically providing liquidity, the only sane way this works is if you get a % fee for each guy you trust	[03:50]
ericmuyser	lol you really need to bake fees into it eh	[03:50]
mircea_popescu	if i accept your stuff for 10k btc i expect you to pay me whatever, 2k.	[03:50]
mircea_popescu	ericmuyser yes.	[03:50]
Namworld	Who gets nothing for this?	[03:51]
dub	the credit issuer gets a cut right?	[03:51]
Namworld	credit issuer gets nothing. Unless they charge a fee for creating these IOUs	[03:52]
Namworld	and giving them to you to go trade around	[03:52]
dub	I thought ripple just replaces physical credit cards	[03:52]
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assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 6 @ 2.47 = 14.82 BTC [+]	[03:52]
mircea_popescu	basically there's a reason retards were trusting each other randomly	[03:52]
mircea_popescu	that reason is that you need to get paid. nobody this stupid has any money	[03:52]
mircea_popescu	and so they pay each other wioth their own acceptance	[03:52]
dub	you still rely on at least two 'centralised' parties to transact with anotehr person	[03:52]
mircea_popescu	you trust me for 10k i trust you for 10k nonsense	[03:52]
Namworld	I tried Ripple with the 40k XRP I received for free in one of those giveaways.	[03:52]
Namworld	What I basically did is, trust BitStamp as an issuer for BTC	[03:53]
Namworld	Sell XRP for BitStamp BTC IOUs	[03:53]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 4 @ 2.4778 = 9.9112 BTC [+]	[03:53]
Namworld	Send BitStamp their IOUs	[03:53]
dub	thats not trusting ripple	[03:53]
dub	thats speculating with xrps	[03:53]
Namworld	and BitStamp gave me my BTC which I withdrawn	[03:53]
dub	you didnt transact over ripple	[03:53]
Namworld	I said trusting BitStamp for IOUs	[03:54]
Namworld	Not Ripples	[03:54]
Namworld	Normally, I could have traded these IOUs for another issuer's IOUs	[03:54]
dub	no you traded some 'IOUs' for btc	[03:54]
dub	you didnt use ripple at all	[03:54]
ericmuyser	dub: Ripple is IOUs	[03:54]
dub	yeah I know	[03:54]
Namworld	I used ripple at the XRP for BTC step	[03:54]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 4 @ 0.02449999 = 0.098 BTC [+]	[03:55]
ericmuyser	and BitStamp is a single node many people trust to exchange on their behalf, and not die	[03:55]
Namworld	WHich is a trade between two users	[03:55]
ericmuyser	I am a node that no one trusts	[03:55]
Namworld	Just as much as exchange an IOU for another IOU	[03:55]
dub	well not really	[03:55]
ericmuyser	except for BitStamp IOUs and XRP (baked in)	[03:55]
dub	you got btcs because people are stupid and dont understand ripple	[03:55]
dub	you didnt participate in ripple beyond that	[03:56]
Namworld	yeah... but XRP for BTC IOUs trade works the same way as IOU X for IOU Y trade.	[03:56]
Namworld	I effectievly tried the trading system	[03:56]
Namworld	That XRPs are overvalued is not my problem, and if users want to buy them...	[03:56]
mircea_popescu	the worse part is that not only have they no way to specify da fuck exactly you trust,	[03:57]
dub	you tried the trading system in the same way that selling credit cards is using the credit system	[03:57]
dub	which is, not really at all	[03:57]
mircea_popescu	they tokenize this trust. so basically... instead of having properly identified units you just have one "ripple"	[03:57]
mircea_popescu	which is thus useless	[03:57]
Namworld	The "credit cards" appear in the system and are traded the same way as IOUs...	[03:58]
mircea_popescu	same disaster of commons spiral of death as the price for used cars.	[03:58]
mircea_popescu	Arthur Britto, Stefan Thomas, and David Schwartz are major contributors to Ripple's development, and all played an active role in Bitcoin's early successes.	[03:58]
dub	Namworld: so sure, you can buy and sell stolen credit cards right now, its not really using credit cards though	[03:58]
mircea_popescu	who the fuck are these people anyway ?	[03:58]
mircea_popescu	minus thomas, who i recall as a cheeky asshole.	[03:58]
Namworld	I'm saying I effectively used the trading system.	[03:59]
dub	moneypaks is probably better than CC's for this example	[03:59]
Namworld	Not that I sent money in a transaction	[03:59]
Namworld	I used the intercurrency/IOUs trading orderbooks	[04:00]
Namworld	Of course I could also have sent IOUs or XRPs as a payment transaction	[04:00]
dub	I don't think thats what the system is intended for	[04:00]
mircea_popescu	"Even Roger Ver, a.k.a. "Bitcoin Jesus" has to pay his supply chain to keep the Bitcoin Store running, so he can't use Bitcoins either. Roger Ver doesn't accept Bitcoin, he accepts US dollars from BitPay. If even Bitcoin Jesus isn't interested in Bitcoins themselves, then why not let customers use their local currencies from the get-go and take out the Bitcoin middleman?"	[04:00]
mircea_popescu	that's what the system is intended for lmao	[04:00]
dub	well, not publicly :)	[04:00]
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Namworld	Which is technically what I did when I sent BitStamp's their IOUs back. It's sending a payment through the send money feature.	[04:00]
mircea_popescu	complete "i fucking don't understand what bitcoin is so here's a cat with a pancake on its head. just as good"	[04:01]
Namworld	Instead of a good being purchased tho, I got funds redeemed, actual BTCs	[04:01]
Namworld	Ripple is a multicurrency trading platform.	[04:01]
dub	its 'sold' as a way to transfer value between two parties, not transfer value to holders of XRPs	[04:02]
mircea_popescu	lol	[04:02]
Namworld	I know that... doesn't change the fact I used all the damn system and it works the same way...	[04:02]
Namworld	Not my fault if people give so much value to XRPs	[04:03]
dub	its just convenient that its turned into a system to transfer a lot of BTC to its creators	[04:03]
dub	Namworld: agreed, you didnt use ripple though	[04:03]
mircea_popescu	dub ideally people stupid enough to put btc in get releived of the btc	[04:03]
mircea_popescu	it's a burden	[04:03]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 3 @ 0.02449999 = 0.0735 BTC [+]	[04:04]
Namworld	Why do you insist on the fact I didn't use Ripple, I fuckin damn well used it, trading on the orderbook and sending money.	[04:04]
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mircea_popescu	Namworld you're uysing a literal definition, he's using a more metaphorical one	[04:04]
mircea_popescu	so you can continue this debate forever. it's cute.	[04:04]
dub	Namworld: you didnt send money, you traded your ability to send money for some btcs	[04:05]
Namworld	If people valuate XRPs it becomes a currency traded on the system just as much. Technically, XRPs are designed to trade exactly the same as any other issued currency on the system.	[04:05]
Namworld	Also, I sent money when I sent the BTC IOUs in a send money transaction	[04:05]
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Namworld	Except instead of paying someone, I send the payment to the issuer which gave me BTC for the IOUs	[04:06]
dub	anyway I think we can agree ripple is retarded	[04:07]
Namworld	The dumbest thing I've seen in a while.	[04:07]
dub	it might have some merit but its been misused and broken	[04:07]
Namworld	I posted on the thread for my free XRP, didn't understand the system, left my XRP there	[04:07]
Namworld	suddenly, people started buying XRPs for a fuckton of BTC	[04:08]
Namworld	I took the time to figure out the system and use it.	[04:08]
Namworld	Not my fault if XRPs is designed to be a currency like any other IOUs, on top of serving as tokens for transactions.	[04:09]
mircea_popescu	dub i don't see the merit. what is it ?	[04:09]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2050 @ 0.00072687 = 1.4901 BTC [-]	[04:09]
Namworld	They should just not have allowed trading them and charge like 1 cent per XRP, and use 1 per transaction.	[04:09]
mircea_popescu	i mean, other than getting retards priced out of BTC some playground where they can pretend like they'll matter later.	[04:09]
Namworld	Low cost transactions, they get financed.	[04:09]
Namworld	Well anyway... I got 5 BTC for 40k XRPs... 600 bucks for nothing...	[04:10]
Namworld	except ~1 hour to use the Ripple orderbook to trade XRPs for IOUs and sign up and cashout on BitStamp	[04:10]
mircea_popescu	Namworld not a bad price to push a scam	[04:11]
mircea_popescu	pirate was giving out steaks to suckers.	[04:11]
Namworld	oh, plus making a post when I saw the Ripple thread	[04:11]
Namworld	I'd do it again anytime. 600 USD/hour is decent.	[04:11]
dub	mircea_popescu: I don't really see it in the current system but I'm not ruling out the utility of a !btc transaction system of some form	[04:12]
mircea_popescu	a ok in that sense. yes.	[04:12]
mircea_popescu	very theoretical and not particularly related to ripple.	[04:12]
dub	yes	[04:12]
mircea_popescu	anyway. unless i'm missing something fudnamental (which gets less and less likely as time goes by), ripple is the down syndrome suffering child of some people who really really wanted to matter	[04:14]
mircea_popescu	but didn't know how.	[04:14]
dub	at some point you realise that prolific masturbation doesnt pay the bills	[04:15]
mircea_popescu	i have my doubts this will pay much in the way of bills	[04:16]
mircea_popescu	my bet is that Namworld's 5 btc is coming from the naive investors trying to push it	[04:16]
mircea_popescu	rather than the peanut gallery they're trying to get.	[04:16]
mircea_popescu	and i guess this all calls for a write-up	[04:17]
kakobrekla	could be just one of those scams that doesnt fail.	[04:18]
mircea_popescu	doesn't fail to amuse ?	[04:20]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 5 @ 0.024996 = 0.125 BTC [-]	[04:20]
kakobrekla	paypal is a scam and half of the world uses it	[04:20]
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assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 3 @ 0.024997 = 0.075 BTC [+]	[04:21]
kakobrekla	its a side-scam	[04:21]
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*	jamesgrant has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)	[04:24]
dub	meta-scam	[04:24]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 11 @ 2.4778 = 27.2558 BTC [+]	[04:24]
kakobrekla	theres plenty of those that work	[04:25]
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assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 17 @ 0.02449999 = 0.4165 BTC [+]	[04:32]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [HIM] 1 @ 2.650001 BTC [+]	[04:33]
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assbot	[BTCTC] [S.DICE-PT] 4 @ 0.0032 = 0.0128 BTC [+]	[04:37]
*	GordonG3kko (~GordonG3k@gateway/tor-sasl/gordong3kko) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[04:37]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 1 @ 0.024597 BTC [-]	[04:37]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 2 @ 0.024596 = 0.0492 BTC [-]	[04:38]
[\]	mircea_popescu: what was I handling a year ago?	[04:42]
mircea_popescu	who was the guy with the debt ?	[04:42]
mircea_popescu	s something	[04:42]
[\]	what debt?	[04:42]
mircea_popescu	shakuru	[04:42]
[\]	oh, right	[04:42]
mircea_popescu	something	[04:43]
[\]	I was just keeping track of who was owed what	[04:43]
mircea_popescu	well yes.	[04:43]
[\]	and paying out as funds were made available	[04:43]
[\]	I wasn't a partner or anything	[04:43]
mircea_popescu	the wind-up	[04:43]
mircea_popescu	like a community appointed liquidator or w/e	[04:43]
[\]	all maybe 40 btc of it	[04:43]
[\]	owed like 1k or something	[04:43]
mircea_popescu	i thought it was way over that	[04:43]
*	JohnGalt1337 (~JohnGalt@gtng-4db04b4e.pool.mediaWays.net) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[04:43]
mircea_popescu	but most never bothered claiming	[04:43]
[\]	I forget now	[04:43]
mircea_popescu	anyway.	[04:44]
[\]	shakaru was the name, you had that right	[04:44]
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assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 3 @ 0.024997 = 0.075 BTC [+]	[04:44]
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*	terryww (~terryww@84-255-240-24.static.t-2.net) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[04:46]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.4839 BTC [+]	[04:46]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 4 @ 2.483997 = 9.936 BTC [+]	[04:47]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 7 @ 0.024997 = 0.175 BTC [+]	[04:50]
*	amillionbabies (~amillionb@rrcs-74-62-25-126.west.biz.rr.com) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[04:53]
mircea_popescu	http://polimedia.us/trilema/2013/ripple-the-definitive-discussion/	[04:54]
mircea_popescu	there, if anyone cares	[04:54]
parseval	pgp pigeons pingec pizzaman1337 Populus PsychoticBoy Pucilowski	[04:54]
mircea_popescu	[\] finally came to me when i saw your dasehs. magic.	[04:55]
aknap3	thought there was something about ripple trust being transitive, so if you trust someone, you are also trusting their judgment of others, but maybe I misunderstood it	[05:01]
assbot	[BTCTC] [BTC-BOND] 20 @ 0.0101 = 0.202 BTC [-]	[05:02]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 1 @ 0.2449 BTC [-]	[05:03]
aknap3	guess that's pretty much your defect #3	[05:03]
mircea_popescu	sorta	[05:04]
mircea_popescu	it's worse tho, in as you can probably traverse up the tree	[05:04]
mircea_popescu	(start with 100 scam bux, trade for 100 cvasi-scam bux, trade these for 100 not reallt scam bux, cash out 100 bux)	[05:05]
mircea_popescu	tradefortress pretty much proved this is damned easy	[05:05]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 5 @ 0.024997 = 0.125 BTC [+]	[05:05]
mircea_popescu	pigeons you want to give that a read say if i've fucked up anything ?	[05:07]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 5 @ 0.024998 = 0.125 BTC [+]	[05:08]
[\]	you trust pigeons?	[05:10]
[\]	sounds like you should give him some ripples	[05:10]
parseval	pgp pigeons pingec pizzaman1337 Populus PsychoticBoy Pucilowski	[05:11]
mircea_popescu	[\] he's the only person afaik who seriously looked at the thing	[05:11]
mircea_popescu	besides, he doesn't like me, so.	[05:12]
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Namworld	To be fair on point #2, the issuer doesn't get anything either out of the issued IOUs. It's not like it requires you to lend them money. It's more like "pay to the bearer X silver/gold coins" IOUs, like early banks did, before state money.	[05:13]
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assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 3 @ 0.024997 = 0.075 BTC [-]	[05:14]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 2 @ 0.02456 = 0.0491 BTC [-]	[05:14]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 2 @ 0.02455 = 0.0491 BTC [-]	[05:14]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 9 @ 0.02455 = 0.221 BTC [-]	[05:14]
Namworld	Where those paper IOUs are practical to go trade around without the need to burden yourself with carrying money all around	[05:14]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 28 @ 0.0245 = 0.686 BTC [-]	[05:14]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 1 @ 0.0245 BTC [-]	[05:14]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 46 @ 0.0245 = 1.127 BTC [-]	[05:14]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 1 @ 0.024145 BTC [-]	[05:14]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 1 @ 0.0252 BTC [+]	[05:15]
mircea_popescu	what do you mean doesn't get anything ?	[05:15]
mircea_popescu	the fact that his debt is accepted is exactly giving him money.	[05:15]
Namworld	Those IOUs are no different than the balance at the exchange, which if it is showing 200 BTC, it means they owe you 200 BTC. They don't pay interest either on that balance. Same for Ripple IOUs.	[05:17]
mircea_popescu	as far as i know, if your bank is showing 200 dollars in your account	[05:18]
mircea_popescu	that bank is paying interest on the 200	[05:18]
Namworld	The same apply for both thing, and often the trusted issuers are an exchange (at least for now)	[05:19]
Namworld	The difference is you expect the bank to invest your money round and make money on that.	[05:19]
mircea_popescu	i don't care lol.	[05:19]
mircea_popescu	as long as i take debt, ANY debt, i expect a %	[05:19]
mircea_popescu	otherwise no deal.	[05:19]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 4 @ 0.024998 = 0.1 BTC [+]	[05:20]
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dub	presumably the entry/exit points to the network charge for the service?	[05:20]
Namworld	So you wouldn't deposit money in MtGox because they don't pay interest on your balance?	[05:20]
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mircea_popescu	Namworld i wouldn't deposit money in mtgox because the mtgox risk requires a premium	[05:20]
mircea_popescu	if they credited my acct with ~300 bux for every 100 deposited i'd consider it.	[05:21]
mircea_popescu	but as it is... never have, never will.	[05:21]
Namworld	Well it's pretty much the same. Bitstamp is an issuer on Ripple. You either have a number on BitStamp or on Ripple of have X of currency Y owed to you by them.	[05:21]
Namworld	So typically people wouldn't expect interest.	[05:22]
mircea_popescu	but! when i accept this, i undertake someone's CP risk	[05:22]
mircea_popescu	this has to be paid for.	[05:22]
mircea_popescu	you can't pass along cp risk w/o fees ?!	[05:22]
mircea_popescu	to rephrase : do you have an inkling of an idea what the 2008 meltdown would have looked like if indeed repo was free ?	[05:23]
assbot	[BTCTC] [BASIC-MINING] 3 @ 0.5505 = 1.6515 BTC [+]	[05:23]
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Namworld	Well history shows people are trusting 3rd parties with their funds all the time, expecting nothing in return.	[05:24]
Namworld	Other than being able to request their funds back	[05:24]
mircea_popescu	"people".	[05:24]
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[\]	"idiots"	[05:25]
mircea_popescu	the developers stupidly assume this happens because never before have there been on the face of the earth genius developers to make a ripple.	[05:25]
bdk_kluge	They expect gains in terms of service. In the US, interest-bearing demand accounts are practically dead. They pay out in service, usually ~1.5-3% of deposits on overhead.	[05:25]
mircea_popescu	the real reason however is that the system doesn't work	[05:25]
dub	Namworld: example?	[05:25]
mircea_popescu	and will be raped in the mouth just as soon as someone cares to.	[05:25]
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Namworld	dub, pretty much every exchange. They won't give you anything for entrusting them your funds	[05:26]
dub	they give you access to a market for one	[05:26]
Namworld	Plus they'll even charge you when you do stuff with your funds on their system	[05:26]
mircea_popescu	anyway, moral of the story here being, "don't start revolutionary financial shit without an actual financial mind available to suckle on the cock of"	[05:26]
Namworld	Well yeah... access to market is the only thing that is given in exchange	[05:26]
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dub	its kinda of an important service	[05:27]
dub	its not like you would be handing them money without the intent to use the market	[05:27]
cole_albon	mirce_popescu what do you mean by " system doesn't work"	[05:27]
Namworld	As for #3, I think you got your facts wrong...	[05:27]
bdk_kluge	Though... they charge for that.	[05:27]
mircea_popescu	depends dub, mtgox ?	[05:27]
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mircea_popescu	cole_albon i think you hafta read the scrollback.	[05:28]
mircea_popescu	Namworld aha ?	[05:28]
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Namworld	I might be mistaken... but I didn't notice any such chain trust effect	[05:28]
[\]	there's a reason why its called ripple	[05:28]
[\]	it implies a chain	[05:28]
cole_albon	the scam bux switcharoo thing?	[05:29]
mircea_popescu	Namworld what do you mean ?!	[05:29]
mircea_popescu	you can't trade your ripples ?	[05:29]
Namworld	One BTC issued by Weexchange.co is different from 1 BTC issued by BitStamp. If you have 1 BTC issued by BitStamp, you can't trade it for someone wanting a Weexchange.co BTC	[05:30]
mircea_popescu	cole_albon no, i meant the naive stone age "free rate repo" system	[05:30]
mircea_popescu	Namworld so then what's a ripple ?	[05:30]
Namworld	Well I didn't notice any kind of mixing...	[05:30]
Namworld	Maybe if I had a more complex trust network...	[05:30]
mircea_popescu	but!	[05:31]
mircea_popescu	how did the tradefortress guy manage to cause all that havoc	[05:31]
[\]	http://l.yimg.com/os/publish-images/lifestyles/2013-05-24/925ca8be-299c-4c0e-8375-5d6c97916bce_630_plussize_swim.jpg	[05:32]
Namworld	He shows that he can have a 1 billion BTC balance by issuing it.	[05:32]
mircea_popescu	but he also traded it	[05:32]
dub	my eyes	[05:32]
Namworld	But no one will accept it if they don't trust tradefortress as an issuer	[05:32]
mircea_popescu	so ?	[05:32]
Namworld	So people must be careful about the issuers they trust? If you decide to trust some random guy for 10000 BTC and take his BTC... of course Ripple will show you have 10000 BTC, but try to trade those with anyone and no one takes them.	[05:34]
dub	right	[05:35]
mircea_popescu	listen, the way i find out what the president of the republic ate	[05:35]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1620 @ 0.00072783 = 1.1791 BTC [+]	[05:35]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19500 @ 0.00072784 = 14.1929 BTC [+]	[05:35]
mircea_popescu	is that his cook knows, and the cook fucks this girl on the side who's owned by this guy who owes me a carrot.	[05:35]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11580 @ 0.00072845 = 8.4355 BTC [+]	[05:35]
mircea_popescu	this is how things work. social graphs degrade towards the edge	[05:35]
assbot	[BTCTC] [BITVPS] 15 @ 0.000857 = 0.0129 BTC [-]	[05:36]
dub	this is another one of those Namworld conversations where we wax on for hours about how when one looks up they find the sky and shockingly upon looking down observe the ground	[05:36]
mircea_popescu	lol	[05:37]
Namworld	That's not how I understand and witnessed Ripple to work.	[05:37]
mircea_popescu	so listen. you got what, 40k ripples. where from ?	[05:37]
Namworld	It works exactly as in this graph, as far as I witnessed: https://ripple.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/how32.png	[05:37]
assbot	[BTCTC] [GSDPT] 4 @ 0.00256 = 0.0102 BTC [+]	[05:38]
Namworld	From the giveaway thread, as I said.	[05:38]
mircea_popescu	from whom ?	[05:38]
assbot	[BTCTC] [S.MPOE-PT] 4 @ 0.000658 = 0.0026 BTC [-]	[05:38]
mircea_popescu	a ripple user X shall we say ?	[05:38]
dub	from the ripple teat	[05:38]
Namworld	From Ripple I guess	[05:39]
assbot	[BTCTC] [B.YABMC] 3 @ 0.0151 = 0.0453 BTC [-]	[05:39]
mircea_popescu	mkay.	[05:39]
Namworld	Or any sub party assigned with the task of distributing the ripples around	[05:39]
mircea_popescu	and then you took out 5 btc	[05:39]
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mircea_popescu	were these 5 btc put in by the user you got your ripples from /	[05:39]
Namworld	I trusted Bitstamp as an issuer. Then traded these XRPs for BitStamp issued BTC IOUs	[05:40]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 2 @ 0.024146 = 0.0483 BTC [-]	[05:40]
mircea_popescu	foprget that.	[05:40]
mircea_popescu	user X gave you 40k ripple.	[05:40]
mircea_popescu	user Y deposited 5 btc	[05:40]
Namworld	Aye	[05:40]
mircea_popescu	you got Y's 5 btc in exchange for X's 40k ripple	[05:40]
Namworld	yeah	[05:40]
mircea_popescu	thus there fore wtf you on about. it's exactly how you witnessed it to work	[05:40]
Namworld	But it doesn't work like you said in #3	[05:41]
mircea_popescu	...	[05:41]
Namworld	You can't randomly end up with USD issued by your boss's little girl	[05:41]
mircea_popescu	you took Y's lunch in exchange for X's scribbled paper.	[05:41]
mircea_popescu	Y doesn't know who the fuck you are.	[05:41]
mircea_popescu	all he knows is he had 5 btc	[05:41]
mircea_popescu	and where are they.	[05:41]
Namworld	XRP is exclusively issued by Ripple	[05:42]
mircea_popescu	...	[05:42]
Namworld	So X's scribbled paper is Ripple	[05:42]
mircea_popescu	dude. where are y's 5 btc	[05:42]
Namworld	In my wallet	[05:42]
mircea_popescu	you don't even know who the fuck y is you have his btc	[05:42]
mircea_popescu	so then how exactly is this diff from the guy in the cab.	[05:43]
Namworld	Yeah	[05:43]
mircea_popescu	"somebody" has his 5 btyc	[05:43]
Namworld	In #3 the guy in the cab realizes suddenly he's holding valueless USD issued by a little girl	[05:43]
Namworld	Which is impossible if he never directly trusted said person as an issuer	[05:44]
mircea_popescu	but he trusted his boss	[05:45]
Namworld	He didn't trust the little girl	[05:45]
mircea_popescu	tghe boss did.	[05:46]
Namworld	There's no chain	[05:46]
mircea_popescu	...	[05:46]
Namworld	Issuer's X BTC is not mixable with Issuer's Y BTC	[05:46]
mircea_popescu	if you were able to take out y's 5 btc in exchange for x's 40k ripples	[05:46]
mircea_popescu	it stands to reason so could the little girl.	[05:46]
mircea_popescu	so, little girl takes out 5 btc for her dad's 40k ripples.	[05:47]
mircea_popescu	dad takes 5 btc out of you for 40k ripples	[05:47]
mircea_popescu	you end up with 40k ripples. no 5 btc.	[05:47]
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assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 2 @ 2.483996 = 4.968 BTC [-]	[05:47]
Namworld	That's not how it work... the only way the little girl can take the 5 BTC is if she traded something for it.	[05:48]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 3 @ 2.483997 = 7.452 BTC [+]	[05:49]
dub	I think you're talking about different things, Namworld is still talking about some idiot paying 5btc for his ripples while mircea_popescu is talking about how ripple works	[05:49]
Namworld	Either she's holding IOUs accepted by someone else (like Bank of America USD or whatever) and someone wants those IOUs in exchange of the BTC, or someone must trust her directly to issue IOUs	[05:49]
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assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 2 @ 0.024994 = 0.05 BTC [+]	[05:50]
dub	Namworld didnt extract 5btc from ripple, he extracted 5btc from the idiot via bitstamp	[05:50]
Namworld	Exactly...	[05:50]
Namworld	User uses BitStamp as a gateway. He gives bitstamp 5 BTC, which then gives that person a 5 BTC IOU issued by BitStamp.	[05:51]
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dub	no	[05:51]
Namworld	?	[05:51]
dub	idiot gives 5btc to YOU, you give him 40k xrp	[05:51]
dub	ripple had nothing to do with it	[05:51]
dub	bitstamp matched the trades	[05:51]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 1 @ 0.024995 BTC [+]	[05:52]
Namworld	That's what I'm saying, for fuck sake, when did I included ripple in all this?	[05:52]
dub	you were just talking about gateways and IOUs in the last sentance	[05:52]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 25 @ 0.024996 = 0.6249 BTC [+]	[05:53]
dub	that is ripplespeak	[05:53]
Namworld	Mr. Idiot gives BitStamp 5 BTC. BitStamp gives the user a 5 BTC on Ripple, issued by BitStamp.	[05:53]
Namworld	I decide to trust BitStamp's IOUs	[05:53]
dub	no you didnt	[05:53]
jborkl	ripple did not create any value, or take any effort to create.therefore in a proof of work/effort concept of monetary supply is worthless	[05:53]
dub	you withdrew in BTC	[05:53]
Namworld	Then I proceed to check the XRP to BitStamp BTC orderbook	[05:53]
Namworld	I see someone is offering 5 BTC BitStamp IOU for 40k XRP	[05:54]
Namworld	I decide to fill the order	[05:54]
Namworld	Ripple executes the trade, I get the guy's IOUs, he gets my XRP	[05:54]
mircea_popescu	Namworld well ok, so then you are copiously unqualified to discuss how ripple works lol	[05:54]
mircea_popescu	your experience is limited to how bitstamp works	[05:54]
Namworld	I then send BitStamp IOUs to BitStamp, including my BitStamp account # in some field	[05:54]
Namworld	Wheres BitStamp redeems their own IOUs	[05:55]
jborkl	why i dont want your IOU for a cheeseburger, thanks anyway	[05:55]
Namworld	How is it limited to how BitStamp works?	[05:55]
jborkl	and ripples are destroyed in each transaction	[05:56]
jborkl	going into a void	[05:56]
jborkl	that defies the laws of physics	[05:56]
kakobrekla	afaik they go to the authors	[05:56]
Namworld	[22:53] I decide to trust BitStamp's IOUs	[05:56]
Namworld	[22:53] no you didnt	[05:56]
Namworld	[22:53] you withdrew in BTC	[05:56]
Namworld	What is this nonsense?	[05:57]
Namworld	I can't get BitStamp's IOUs or withdraw anything without trusting BitStamp IOUs	[05:57]
jborkl	I read on their website they just go poof	[05:57]
jborkl	annd do not go anywher	[05:57]
jborkl	e	[05:57]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 129 @ 0.0252 = 3.2508 BTC [+]	[05:58]
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kakobrekla	thats strange	[05:58]
cole_albon	my favorite description of ripple as a system of tubes: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=176077.msg1869022#msg1869022	[05:59]
jborkl	conservation of matter mass ftw	[05:59]
jborkl	mass i mean	[05:59]
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dub	I think that scene from Dumb and Dumber explains ripple best	[06:00]
cole_albon	… and bitcoin, and usd.	[06:01]
jborkl	the one where he is pissing on his cause it is on fire?	[06:02]
dub	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GSXbgfKFWg	[06:02]
jborkl	leg	[06:02]
dub	jborkl: well, yeah the whole movie is pretty much it	[06:02]
jborkl	lol, or selling the dead parrot to the blind kid?	[06:02]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 3 @ 2.46 = 7.38 BTC [-]	[06:04]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 317 @ 0.025212 = 7.9922 BTC [+]	[06:05]
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Namworld	Guess I'll have to go back to Ripple and mess around, testing	[06:07]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 50 @ 0.02501 = 1.2505 BTC [-]	[06:12]
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assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 1 @ 0.02450003 BTC [-]	[06:15]
Namworld	Ok, so I have purchased 0.01 BTC from Weexchange BTC orderbook and 0.01 BTC from Bitstamp BTC orderbook. I had 0.02 BTC in my account in balance summary. I then proceeded to place a 1 BTC sale order on the Weexchange BTC orderbook.	[06:15]
Namworld	Only 0.01 BTC shows up on the orderbook, regardless of the account holding 0.02 BTC and the order being for 1 BTC	[06:15]
Namworld	Because I only have 0.01 fucking Weexchange BTC	[06:15]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 26 @ 0.0242 = 0.6292 BTC [-]	[06:16]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 25 @ 0.0241 = 0.6025 BTC [-]	[06:16]
Namworld	and 0.01 Bitstamp BTC	[06:16]
Namworld	The various issuers' fund are not mixable...	[06:16]
*	Now talking on #bitcoin-assets	[13:45]
*	Topic for #bitcoin-assets is: http://bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://log.bitcoin-assets.com - most days worth reading, I heard.	[13:45]
*	Topic for #bitcoin-assets set by kakobrekla!~kako@unaffiliated/kakobrekla at Tue May 14 16:38:49 2013	[13:45]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.46 BTC [+]	[13:52]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12900 @ 0.00076528 = 9.8721 BTC [+]	[13:55]
mircea_popescu	http://www.davidicke.com/headlines/84683-parking-tickets-issued-on-wrecks-while-stockholm-burns	[13:55]
mircea_popescu	dude sweden really works.	[13:55]
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assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.459 BTC [-]	[14:08]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1214 @ 0.00075973 = 0.9223 BTC [-]	[14:08]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 16 @ 0.024997 = 0.4 BTC [+]	[14:09]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 1 @ 0.0247 BTC [+]	[14:21]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 2 @ 0.0247 = 0.0494 BTC [+]	[14:25]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 2 @ 0.024996 = 0.05 BTC [-]	[14:26]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 3 @ 0.024996 = 0.075 BTC [-]	[14:27]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 39 @ 0.024997 = 0.9749 BTC [+]	[14:27]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9300 @ 0.00075973 = 7.0655 BTC [-]	[14:38]
dub		[14:41]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.44 BTC [-]	[14:45]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4321 @ 0.00075992 = 3.2836 BTC [+]	[14:45]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15038 @ 0.00075973 = 11.4248 BTC [-]	[14:45]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4321 @ 0.00075973 = 3.2828 BTC [-]	[14:46]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 4 @ 0.024996 = 0.1 BTC [-]	[14:49]
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erickaz	help	[15:06]
erickaz	!help	[15:06]
assbot	List of commands:	[15:06]
assbot	!ticker (desc: returns current ticker values, supported: MPEX, HAVELOCK, BTCTCO) {short: !t}	[15:06]
assbot	!last (desc: returns last price value, supported: MPEX, HAVELOCK, BTCTCO) {short: !l}	[15:06]
assbot	!mp (desc: returns the response from MPEX order)	[15:06]
assbot	!rules (desc: chan guidelines) {short: !r}	[15:07]
assbot	!exchanges (desc: lists exchanges and brokers) {short: !e}	[15:07]
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furuknap	;;ticker	[15:11]
gribble	BTCUSD ticker \| Best bid: 128.29000, Best ask: 129.37234, Bid-ask spread: 1.08234, Last trade: 128.29000, 24 hour volume: 47920.23401049, 24 hour low: 127.80000, 24 hour high: 133.98000, 24 hour vwap: 130.65310	[15:11]
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assbot	[BTCTC] [BITVPS] 9 @ 0.000857 = 0.0077 BTC [-]	[15:15]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 2 @ 0.024801 = 0.0496 BTC [-]	[15:16]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 1 @ 0.0248 BTC [-]	[15:16]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 1 @ 0.0247 BTC [-]	[15:16]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.4145 BTC [-]	[15:18]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.4144 BTC [-]	[15:18]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.4143 BTC [-]	[15:18]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.4142 BTC [-]	[15:18]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.414 BTC [-]	[15:18]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.4122 BTC [-]	[15:18]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.4051 BTC [-]	[15:18]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.405 BTC [-]	[15:18]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 3 @ 2.402 = 7.206 BTC [-]	[15:18]
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*	Smoovious (~imp586@75-12-89-18.lightspeed.wyngmi.sbcglobal.net) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[15:19]
assbot	[BTCTC] [S.DICE-PT] 4 @ 0.00335 = 0.0134 BTC [+]	[15:19]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [HIM] 1 @ 2.6001 BTC [-]	[15:20]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 54 @ 0.025 = 1.35 BTC [+]	[15:21]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 1 @ 0.0246 BTC [-]	[15:22]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 1 @ 0.0245 BTC [-]	[15:22]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 1 @ 0.0245 BTC [-]	[15:22]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 1 @ 0.0245 BTC [-]	[15:22]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 50 @ 0.024372 = 1.2186 BTC [-]	[15:22]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 25 @ 0.024372 = 0.6093 BTC [-]	[15:22]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 50 @ 0.024371 = 1.2186 BTC [-]	[15:22]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 50 @ 0.02505 = 1.2525 BTC [+]	[15:23]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 10 @ 0.02436 = 0.2436 BTC [-]	[15:25]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 4 @ 0.024301 = 0.0972 BTC [-]	[15:25]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 8 @ 0.024301 = 0.1944 BTC [-]	[15:26]
*	olive_ has quit (Quit: olive_)	[15:27]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2700 @ 0.00075558 = 2.0401 BTC [-]	[15:30]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8400 @ 0.00075492 = 6.3413 BTC [-]	[15:30]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1300 @ 0.00075421 = 0.9805 BTC [-]	[15:30]
*	mjr___ (~mjr_@cpe-68-174-114-54.nyc.res.rr.com) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[15:31]
assbot	[BTCTC] [BITVPS] 1 @ 0.000858 BTC [+]	[15:34]
mjr___	hi all	[15:34]
*	cole_albon (~cole_albo@c-76-102-197-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[15:36]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 20 @ 0.02505 = 0.501 BTC [+]	[15:47]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 4 @ 0.0247 = 0.0988 BTC [+]	[15:48]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 30 @ 0.02505 = 0.7515 BTC [+]	[15:50]
*	saulimus has quit (Quit: saulimus)	[15:51]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 6 @ 0.0247 = 0.1482 BTC [+]	[15:51]
*	darkee has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)	[15:55]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 1 @ 0.024302 BTC [-]	[15:57]
assbot	[BTCTC] [PAJKA.BOND] 1 @ 0.109989 BTC [+]	[15:57]
*	terryww has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)	[16:00]
*	darkee (~darkee@gateway/tor-sasl/darkee) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[16:01]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 32 @ 0.0250999 = 0.8032 BTC [+]	[16:07]
furuknap	;;ticker	[16:07]
gribble	BTCUSD ticker \| Best bid: 129.80501, Best ask: 130.39999, Bid-ask spread: 0.59498, Last trade: 130.39999, 24 hour volume: 46859.30230998, 24 hour low: 127.80000, 24 hour high: 133.98000, 24 hour vwap: 130.72146	[16:07]
*	error4733 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)	[16:07]
furuknap	OMG IT'S CRASHING! WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE! SELL, SELL, SELL!	[16:07]
mjr___	lol	[16:07]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 1 @ 0.024888 BTC [+]	[16:08]
*	terryww (~terryww@84-255-240-24.static.t-2.net) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[16:08]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 7 @ 0.024302 = 0.1701 BTC [-]	[16:09]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 3 @ 0.024301 = 0.0729 BTC [-]	[16:09]
*	terryww has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)	[16:14]
*	GordonG3kko has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)	[16:14]
*	Truncatem has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)	[16:15]
*	GordonG3kko (~GordonG3k@gateway/tor-sasl/gordong3kko) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[16:15]
ThickAsThieves	[12:55] we'll be back at 128-129	[16:17]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 4 @ 0.02505 = 0.1002 BTC [-]	[16:19]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.437999 BTC [+]	[16:26]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.438 BTC [+]	[16:26]
*	cosmo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)	[16:29]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 20 @ 0.0245 = 0.49 BTC [-]	[16:30]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 54 @ 0.0243 = 1.3122 BTC [-]	[16:30]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 10 @ 0.02425 = 0.2425 BTC [-]	[16:30]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 21 @ 0.02420001 = 0.5082 BTC [-]	[16:30]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 155 @ 0.02420001 = 3.751 BTC [-]	[16:30]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 40 @ 0.0242 = 0.968 BTC [-]	[16:30]
*	darkee has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)	[16:33]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.444 BTC [+]	[16:34]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 200 @ 0.025 = 5 BTC [+]	[16:35]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 100 @ 0.0251 = 2.51 BTC [+]	[16:35]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 2 @ 2.444 = 4.888 BTC [+]	[16:36]
*	jamesgrant (~jamesgran@CPEc0c1c03be745-CM00407b85cf6f.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[16:38]
*	darkee (~darkee@gateway/tor-sasl/darkee) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[16:39]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 1 @ 0.0251 BTC [+]	[16:45]
*	wences (~wences@204.11.229.46.static.etheric.net) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[16:45]
*	jamesgrant has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)	[16:45]
*	jamesgrant (~jamesgran@CPEc0c1c03be745-CM00407b85cf6f.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[16:46]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 1 @ 0.0251 BTC [+]	[16:47]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 2 @ 2.444 = 4.888 BTC [+]	[16:48]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.DICE] 1000 @ 0.00251225 = 2.5123 BTC [-]	[16:52]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 225 @ 0.025 = 5.625 BTC [-]	[17:01]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 9 @ 0.025 = 0.225 BTC [-]	[17:02]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 2 @ 0.025 = 0.05 BTC [-]	[17:02]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11341 @ 0.00075833 = 8.6002 BTC [+]	[17:02]
*	jamesgrant has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)	[17:04]
*	topace_ has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)	[17:04]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.4061 BTC [-]	[17:05]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.406 BTC [-]	[17:05]
assbot	[BTCTC] [COGNITIVE] 2 @ 0.35 = 0.7 BTC [-]	[17:05]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 80 @ 0.0249 = 1.992 BTC [-]	[17:10]
fiat500	what is AM doing halving their hashrate like that? if its intentional thats one thing - if its a hardware flaw thats a problem	[17:10]
*	jamesgrant (~jamesgran@CPEc0c1c03be745-CM00407b85cf6f.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[17:10]
assbot	[BTCTC] [BTC-BOND] 533 @ 0.01019 = 5.4313 BTC [+]	[17:16]
*	jamesgrant has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)	[17:17]
assbot	[BTCTC] [BTC-BOND] 10 @ 0.0102 = 0.102 BTC [+]	[17:17]
assbot	[BTCTC] [BTC-BOND] 35 @ 0.0102 = 0.357 BTC [+]	[17:18]
assbot	[BTCTC] [BTC-BOND] 250 @ 0.0102 = 2.55 BTC [+]	[17:18]
*	valparaiso has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)	[17:18]
assbot	[BTCTC] [BTC-BOND] 21 @ 0.01021 = 0.2144 BTC [+]	[17:18]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 40 @ 0.0245 = 0.98 BTC [+]	[17:19]
assbot	[BTCTC] [BTC-BOND] 5 @ 0.01023 = 0.0512 BTC [+]	[17:19]
*	valparaiso (~Terse@pdpc/supporter/active/valparaiso) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[17:19]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 1 @ 0.024147 BTC [-]	[17:19]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 6 @ 0.024147 = 0.1449 BTC [-]	[17:20]
assbot	[BTCTC] [BTC-BOND] 1500 @ 0.01025 = 15.375 BTC [+]	[17:20]
assbot	[BTCTC] [BTC-BOND] 35 @ 0.01025 = 0.3588 BTC [+]	[17:20]
assbot	[BTCTC] [BTC-BOND] 10 @ 0.01025 = 0.1025 BTC [+]	[17:20]
assbot	[BTCTC] [BTC-BOND] 1000 @ 0.0103 = 10.3 BTC [+]	[17:20]
assbot	[BTCTC] [BTC-BOND] 10 @ 0.01035 = 0.1035 BTC [+]	[17:21]
deadweasel	;;ticker --last	[17:28]
gribble	130.46896	[17:28]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.4112 BTC [+]	[17:36]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 2 @ 2.411 = 4.822 BTC [-]	[17:36]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.41 BTC [-]	[17:37]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.411 BTC [+]	[17:40]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 2 @ 0.024146 = 0.0483 BTC [-]	[17:41]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 66 @ 0.024145 = 1.5936 BTC [-]	[17:42]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.41 BTC [-]	[17:43]
paranainc	!e	[17:43]
paranainc	;;e	[17:43]
gribble	Error: "e" is not a valid command.	[17:44]
paranainc	e	[17:44]
paranainc	!exchanges	[17:44]
*	terryww (~terryww@109.127.239.35) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[17:44]
kakobrekla	it pms you.	[17:45]
kakobrekla	!e	[17:45]
kakobrekla	yea	[17:45]
*	Chilca (~Chilca@c-67-164-89-68.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[17:45]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.41 BTC [-]	[17:46]
*	riX2000 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)	[17:47]
fiat500	!e	[17:48]
paranainc	thanks	[17:48]
paranainc	this is pretty cool	[17:48]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 80 @ 0.0249 = 1.992 BTC [-]	[17:50]
ThickAsThieves	!e	[17:50]
ThickAsThieves	no Bitfunder?	[17:51]
paranainc	thats what im sayin	[17:51]
deadweasel	!e	[17:51]
fiat500	ThickAsThieves: im having the hardest time getting btc into my bitfunder	[17:51]
fiat500	wex completely choked on my signup email	[17:52]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.414 BTC [+]	[17:54]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 5 @ 2.43 = 12.15 BTC [+]	[17:54]
ThickAsThieves	try this	[17:54]
ThickAsThieves	ditch your weex account	[17:54]
ThickAsThieves	and make a new one	[17:54]
ThickAsThieves	with a new addy	[17:54]
fiat500	yeah it completely choked :P	[17:54]
ThickAsThieves	you can only connect one weex to your bf	[17:55]
ThickAsThieves	but you can make many weex	[17:55]
ThickAsThieves	so just try again	[17:55]
fiat500	havent been able to get past signup	[17:56]
deadweasel	liberty reserve got squished, eh?	[17:56]
ThickAsThieves	yep	[17:56]
fiat500	ukto is looking into it anyway, fingers crossed	[17:57]
deadweasel	"“Budovsky’s businesses in Costa Rica apparently were financed by using money from child pornography websites and drug trafficking,”	[17:57]
deadweasel	i wonder	[17:58]
fiat500	cute COG divs	[18:08]
deadweasel	exactly Chaaang-Noi	[18:08]
deadweasel	he probably ran a tor relay once so they are saying he funded his busiess via cp	[18:08]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 1 @ 0.0244 BTC [+]	[18:09]
paranainc	excellent idea	[18:12]
*	paranainc (~paranainc@cpe-198-72-254-100.socal.res.rr.com) has left #bitcoin-assets	[18:13]
*	jamesgrant (~jamesgran@184.151.114.149) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[18:13]
*	paranainc (~user@cpe-198-72-254-100.socal.res.rr.com) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[18:14]
deadweasel	lol, i think you should be able to pick up a drone online in the next 10 years	[18:14]
JohnGalt1337	execute order 66	[18:14]
paranainc	http://www.geek.com/geek-pick/wasp-the-linux-powered-flying-spy-drone-that-cracks-wi-fi-gsm-netwokrs-1407741/	[18:15]
*	riX2000 (~riX2000@unaffiliated/rix2000) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[18:16]
ThickAsThieves	mircea_popescu, I'm gonna be one of those people to thank you for prying my eyes open after our conversation about AM yesterday	[18:19]
ThickAsThieves	the more I thought about it	[18:19]
ThickAsThieves	the more I dug into how correct you were	[18:20]
ThickAsThieves	and now totally agree	[18:20]
*	paranainc has quit ()	[18:21]
ThickAsThieves	AM's path must be to control and even insitigate the total commoditization of mining hardware	[18:21]
ThickAsThieves	while sorting a way to transcend the traditonal mining market	[18:22]
ThickAsThieves	parlaying their resources into a tertiary market	[18:22]
*	error4733 (~error4733@ip-83-134-214-40.dsl.scarlet.be) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[18:22]
*	paranainc (~user741@cpe-198-72-254-100.socal.res.rr.com) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[18:22]
ThickAsThieves	like custom ASIC design, or government contracts for custom decryption or whatever	[18:22]
deadweasel	paranainc: that's a helluva drone!	[18:22]
cole_albon	!e	[18:23]
ThickAsThieves	the only saving grace i can suss for AM	[18:23]
ThickAsThieves	is that they are in CHina	[18:23]
ThickAsThieves	which makes it more likely that any notable competitor of theirs would have to also be there	[18:24]
ThickAsThieves	due to low costs	[18:24]
fiat500	Chaaang-Noi: at this scale they shouldnt be paying divs out, they should be reinvesting and trying to get their hands on as much hardware as possible, soon	[18:24]
ThickAsThieves	they need to be the vistaprint of mining	[18:25]
ThickAsThieves	and just gut everything	[18:25]
ThickAsThieves	including themselves	[18:25]
ThickAsThieves	for max profit	[18:25]
fiat500	the more they wait, the longer it will take for them to get started	[18:26]
fiat500	their only hope right now is to cash out big before the nethash skyrockets	[18:26]
fiat500	corollary: shut up and spend my money!	[18:26]
ThickAsThieves	small mining devices, cheap mining devices,	[18:27]
ThickAsThieves	ASICs in related producst	[18:27]
ThickAsThieves	like phones	[18:27]
fiat500	anyone know how many USB miners were sold?	[18:27]
ThickAsThieves	thats the way	[18:27]
ericmuyser	ThickAsThieves: agree!!	[18:28]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 3 @ 2.407 = 7.221 BTC [-]	[18:28]
ThickAsThieves	just saturate the world	[18:28]
ThickAsThieves	and gtfo	[18:28]
ericmuyser	fiat500: but i dont think the divs are much to them really	[18:28]
fiat500	ericmuyser: they are even less to us	[18:29]
ThickAsThieves	yesterday I mentioned they could be like HP	[18:29]
ThickAsThieves	and didnt realize how right i was,	[18:29]
ericmuyser	fiat500: yah but it hypes their value	[18:29]
ericmuyser	much more than the actual divs	[18:29]
*	WormDrink (~WormDrink@196-215-135-121.dynamic.isadsl.co.za) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[18:29]
*	WormDrink has quit (Changing host)	[18:29]
*	WormDrink (~WormDrink@unaffiliated/wormdrink) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[18:29]
ThickAsThieves	because HP didnt want to the PC business after they got it	[18:29]
ThickAsThieves	they achieved max commoditization	[18:29]
ericmuyser	"i want 0.02 divs!" buys in and loses 0.8 from the drop	[18:29]
ThickAsThieves	and then wanted to move on to other types of biz	[18:29]
ericmuyser	but it gets em in	[18:29]
fiat500	lmfao	[18:30]
ericmuyser	right of course	[18:31]
fiat500	ThickAsThieves: its a bit of a stretch though, HP built hardware that people could do work/play on	[18:31]
fiat500	i.e. had a use	[18:31]
fiat500	a 300MH/s usb stick that generates < $1/month isnt that	[18:32]
ericmuyser	they should be doing that, more R&D	[18:32]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 11 @ 0.024146 = 0.2656 BTC [-]	[18:32]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 9 @ 0.024145 = 0.2173 BTC [-]	[18:33]
ThickAsThieves	to be clear,	[18:34]
ThickAsThieves	i'm not saying mp turned me skeptical on AM	[18:35]
ThickAsThieves	he merely helped me clarify my desires for them as a company	[18:35]
*	JohnGalt1337 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)	[18:35]
ThickAsThieves	I was already caring less about the growth of their mining farm	[18:35]
ThickAsThieves	but now i dont care about it at all	[18:35]
ThickAsThieves	selling hardware at the highest quantity and cheaper than competitors is the real cashcow	[18:36]
ThickAsThieves	and if they plan to exist long term	[18:36]
ThickAsThieves	they need to plan to capitilize on that	[18:36]
*	paranainc has quit ()	[18:36]
ThickAsThieves	and then make a jump to a tertiary market	[18:36]
ThickAsThieves	yep, and then when BFL or womever does ship	[18:37]
ThickAsThieves	AM can just sell for 10% less than them	[18:37]
ThickAsThieves	and rape	[18:37]
*	Truncatem (~username@se2x.mullvad.net) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[18:38]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.4072 BTC [+]	[18:39]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.407 BTC [-]	[18:39]
*	Dimsler (~dimsler@dhcp-20-aa-4b-fd-a4-ce.cpe.sourcecable.net) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[18:39]
assbot	[BTCTC] [PAJKA.BOND] 1 @ 0.10997 BTC [-]	[18:41]
*	Chilca has quit (Remote host closed the connection)	[18:41]
*	jamesgrant has quit (Quit: Leaving)	[18:42]
fiat500	who runs BFL btw	[18:43]
ThickAsThieves	i think he's a convicted criminal actually	[18:44]
ThickAsThieves	i forget the name	[18:44]
ThickAsThieves	some scammer	[18:44]
*	paranainc (~user741@cpe-198-72-254-100.socal.res.rr.com) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[18:46]
*	paranainc has quit (Client Quit)	[18:47]
fiat500	LOL	[18:48]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6000 @ 0.00075421 = 4.5253 BTC [-]	[18:49]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.DICE] 1800 @ 0.00251225 = 4.5221 BTC [-]	[18:51]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.43 BTC [+]	[18:51]
fiat500	https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110805.0	[18:51]
fiat500	quite	[18:51]
ThickAsThieves	http://perfectmoney.com/news_view.html?id=342&drgn=1	[18:54]
ThickAsThieves	Perfect Money no longer supporting US customers	[18:54]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 2 @ 0.02450001 = 0.049 BTC [-]	[18:55]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 6 @ 0.02450001 = 0.147 BTC [-]	[18:55]
*	nospinzy has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)	[18:55]
orkaa	it's not that perfect it would seem	[18:55]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 5 @ 0.02435 = 0.1218 BTC [+]	[18:56]
*	nospinzy (~nospinzy@216.49.20.58.res-cmts.hzl2.ptd.net) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[18:56]
ThickAsThieves	YEEEEOOWWWW	[18:56]
fiat500	fuck em anyway, charging 6%, what is that	[18:57]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 200 @ 0.0245 = 4.9 BTC [-]	[19:00]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 4 @ 0.0245 = 0.098 BTC [-]	[19:05]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 100 @ 0.00075421 = 0.0754 BTC [-]	[19:06]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9900 @ 0.00075268 = 7.4515 BTC [-]	[19:06]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 33 @ 0.02432 = 0.8026 BTC [-]	[19:07]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.43 BTC [+]	[19:07]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 1 @ 0.02431 BTC [-]	[19:08]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 460 @ 0.0242 = 11.132 BTC [-]	[19:08]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.DICE] 2096 @ 0.00251225 = 5.2657 BTC [-]	[19:08]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 99 @ 0.0242 = 2.3958 BTC [-]	[19:08]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 1 @ 0.0242 BTC [-]	[19:09]
*	B0g4r7 (natty@163.sub-75-197-137.myvzw.com) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[19:12]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 4 @ 0.02415 = 0.0966 BTC [-]	[19:12]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 21 @ 0.0245 = 0.5145 BTC [+]	[19:13]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 26 @ 0.024145 = 0.6278 BTC [-]	[19:13]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 10 @ 0.02412 = 0.2412 BTC [-]	[19:14]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 5 @ 0.02412 = 0.1206 BTC [-]	[19:14]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 17 @ 0.0241 = 0.4097 BTC [-]	[19:14]
*	savetheinternet (~savethein@unaffiliated/savetheinternet) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[19:22]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.4385 BTC [+]	[19:24]
*	Eizy (~Adium@p578F7F72.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[19:25]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.4448 BTC [+]	[19:28]
*	riX2000 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)	[19:34]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 45 @ 0.0243 = 1.0935 BTC [+]	[19:40]
*	nospinzy has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)	[19:49]
*	cads (~m@adsl-108-128-66-149.asm.bellsouth.net) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[19:49]
*	nospinzy (~nospinzy@216.49.20.58.res-cmts.hzl2.ptd.net) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[19:49]
error4733	;;bids 0	[19:52]
gribble	There are currently 13709258 bitcoins demanded at or over 0.0 USD, worth 18594766.4567 USD in total. \| Data vintage: 18.2833 seconds	[19:52]
error4733	;;asks 111111111111111111	[19:52]
gribble	There are currently 104685.69 bitcoins offered at or under 1.11111111111e+17 USD, worth 6.99157250609e+13 USD in total. \| Data vintage: 25.4900 seconds	[19:52]
*	bdk_kluge has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)	[19:53]
*	bdk_kluge (~KLUDGE@66-87-114-12.pools.spcsdns.net) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[19:54]
error4733	;;eightball good time to sell ?	[19:54]
gribble	NO.	[19:54]
kakobrekla	http://www.ticotimes.net/More-news/News-Briefs/Costa-Rican-arrested-in-Spain-for-alleged-financial-crimes_Friday-May-24-2013	[19:54]
ericmuyser	;;next	[19:54]
gribble	targets: 140-145, 160-166, 178-188 \| support: 128-130 \| #bitcoin [Fri, 24 May 2013 18:24:11 +0000] \| tips: http://bit.ly/YnxUM4 \| disclaimer: http://bit.ly/139er6E \| this is not investment or trading advice \| #bitcoin-analysis \| https://twitter.com/BitcoinOracle \| updated by OneFixt \| 22 hours, 30 minutes, and 27 seconds ago	[19:54]
ericmuyser	;;eightball invest more in asicminer?	[19:55]
gribble	NO.	[19:55]
error4733	;;eightball time to short AM ?	[19:55]
gribble	Obviously.	[19:55]
ericmuyser	;;eightball sex with sister?	[19:55]
gribble	No chance.	[19:55]
ericmuyser	damn	[19:55]
aknap3	;;eightball sex with sister?	[19:55]
gribble	You're kidding, right?	[19:55]
aknap3	well, it's random right?	[19:56]
ericmuyser	aknap3: no luck	[19:56]
error4733	no, its gribble	[19:56]
ericmuyser	aknap3: maybe maybe not...	[19:56]
aknap3	;;eightball sex with myself?	[19:56]
gribble	No chance.	[19:56]
aknap3	whew	[19:56]
error4733	the ghost of satoshi is on gribble	[19:56]
error4733	kakobreka : yes, drama of the day :)	[19:56]
error4733	;;eightball LR is down, it's good for BTC ?	[19:57]
gribble	NO.	[19:57]
kakobrekla	gribble u mad.	[19:57]
*	riX2000 (~riX2000@unaffiliated/rix2000) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[19:57]
error4733	yep, is mad ! so eric you still have a chance	[19:57]
*	louong (~louong@S01060012174758b7.vc.shawcable.net) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[20:00]
assbot	[BTCTC] [PAJKA.BOND] 1 @ 0.1075 BTC [-]	[20:01]
assbot	[BTCTC] [PAJKA.BOND] 1 @ 0.1072 BTC [-]	[20:01]
*	gribble slaps his genitals with a glazed food for worms	[20:01]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 27 @ 0.0245 = 0.6615 BTC [+]	[20:03]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 9 @ 0.02450001 = 0.2205 BTC [+]	[20:03]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 329 @ 0.0249 = 8.1921 BTC [+]	[20:03]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 36 @ 0.0249 = 0.8964 BTC [+]	[20:05]
*	Eizy has quit (Quit: Leaving.)	[20:05]
*	gribble slaps goat's genitals with a top Bitcoin	[20:06]
BTCOxygen	;;slap gribble	[20:08]
*	gribble slaps gribble with a high AK-47	[20:08]
*	riX2000 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)	[20:08]
*	lippoper has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)	[20:09]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ESECURITYSABTC] 1 @ 0.262 BTC [-]	[20:12]
*	GordonGekko (~ken@unaffiliated/ken-/x-2017468) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[20:12]
deadweasel	Chaaang-Noi, where do you pick up cog shares?	[20:13]
*	farfi (~farfi@85-250-109-105.bb.netvision.net.il) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[20:14]
deadweasel	i dunno, i figure it's the ltc of mining, but I was gonna take a look	[20:16]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 58 @ 0.0241 = 1.3978 BTC [-]	[20:16]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 25 @ 0.0241 = 0.6025 BTC [-]	[20:16]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.435 BTC [-]	[20:17]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 41 @ 0.02405 = 0.9861 BTC [-]	[20:17]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 100 @ 0.0242 = 2.42 BTC [+]	[20:17]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 100 @ 0.02425 = 2.425 BTC [+]	[20:17]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 100 @ 0.0243 = 2.43 BTC [+]	[20:18]
assbot	[BTCTC] [CRYPTO-TRADE] 2 @ 0.199 = 0.398 BTC [+]	[20:18]
*	user741 (~user741@cpe-198-72-254-100.socal.res.rr.com) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[20:20]
assbot	[BTCTC] [CRYPTO-TRADE] 1 @ 0.199 BTC [+]	[20:20]
*	Eizy (~Adium@dslc-082-083-044-142.pools.arcor-ip.net) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[20:21]
*	bdk_kluge has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)	[20:22]
*	Dimsler has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)	[20:22]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 18 @ 0.02425 = 0.4365 BTC [-]	[20:23]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.43 BTC [-]	[20:23]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.435 BTC [+]	[20:23]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.44 BTC [+]	[20:23]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 1 @ 0.02405 BTC [-]	[20:23]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 4 @ 0.02425 = 0.097 BTC [-]	[20:24]
*	riX2000 (~riX2000@nl5x.mullvad.net) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[20:24]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.445 BTC [+]	[20:24]
*	riX2000 has quit (Changing host)	[20:24]
*	riX2000 (~riX2000@unaffiliated/rix2000) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[20:24]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.44 BTC [-]	[20:26]
*	terryww has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)	[20:30]
furuknap	I need to be proven wrong again... Give me your best estimate on network increase (in percent) per month over the next 12 months on average.	[20:30]
ThickAsThieves	impossible	[20:31]
ThickAsThieves	there is no way to give a good estimate	[20:31]
furuknap	Impossibe to give me your best?	[20:31]
ThickAsThieves	best would still be bad	[20:32]
ThickAsThieves	as in useless	[20:32]
furuknap	Did I say I wanted your best or good?	[20:32]
ThickAsThieves	ok, 10% per diff change	[20:32]
furuknap	We know it's not going to be 10000% or 1% so it's somewhere in between.	[20:32]
ThickAsThieves	thats my best guess	[20:33]
ThickAsThieves	that gives you an easy number to make a formula with too	[20:34]
furuknap	And is that just a complete random number or do you think it is based on at least some rational thought?	[20:34]
furuknap	Not looking for formulas right now, and difficulty really isn't part of that equation at all :-)	[20:34]
ThickAsThieves	i think we've been getting closer to 10% per	[20:35]
furuknap	;;estimate	[20:35]
gribble	Next difficulty estimate \| 13355540.2437 based on data since last change \| 12915952.6158 based on data for last three days	[20:35]
ThickAsThieves	and that it we might see some weeks where its more	[20:35]
ThickAsThieves	;;nethash	[20:35]
*	farfi (~farfi@85-250-109-105.bb.netvision.net.il) has left #bitcoin-assets	[20:35]
gribble	92457.4009239	[20:35]
*	savetheinternet has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)	[20:36]
furuknap	Sure, and some weeks, it may be a bit lower, but doesn't really matter, I'm just picking some random scenarios for an article.	[20:36]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.42 BTC [-]	[20:37]
ThickAsThieves	even better reason to use 10%per then	[20:37]
ThickAsThieves	so readers can grasp it	[20:37]
furuknap	Actually, since 10% means 20% per month, 5% would be better, but I don't want to be too unrealistic.	[20:37]
furuknap	What was the previous increase btc? Just to have as a point of reference...	[20:38]
ThickAsThieves	rephrase?	[20:38]
furuknap	*btw, not btc	[20:38]
ThickAsThieves	it was 10%+ i think	[20:39]
furuknap	How much of an increase was the last retarget in percent?	[20:39]
ThickAsThieves	like about 11% if i recall	[20:39]
ThickAsThieves	;;bc,stats	[20:39]
furuknap	Ah, OK, I'll check it out.	[20:39]
gribble	Current Blocks: 237893 \| Current Difficulty: 1.2153411709775832E7 \| Next Difficulty At Block: 239903 \| Next Difficulty In: 2010 blocks \| Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 4 days, 14 hours, 50 minutes, and 38 seconds \| Next Difficulty Estimate: 13355540.2437 \| Estimated Percent Change: 9.89128	[20:39]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 9 @ 0.02405 = 0.2165 BTC [-]	[20:39]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 89 @ 0.02401 = 2.1369 BTC [-]	[20:39]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 2 @ 0.024 = 0.048 BTC [-]	[20:39]
ThickAsThieves	10% per is a good guess methinks	[20:39]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.415 BTC [-]	[20:39]
furuknap	A bit lower, actually: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=24-05-2013#54044 <- Aronud 7.6%	[20:41]
ThickAsThieves	afk	[20:41]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.412 BTC [-]	[20:43]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 2 @ 2.411003 = 4.822 BTC [-]	[20:43]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.40782 BTC [-]	[20:43]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 2 @ 2.40782 = 4.8156 BTC [-]	[20:43]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.4077 BTC [-]	[20:43]
*	Eizy has quit (Quit: Leaving.)	[20:46]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 100 @ 0.00075389 = 0.0754 BTC [+]	[20:48]
*	lippoper (~lippoper@c-66-176-26-157.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[20:50]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1210 @ 0.00075389 = 0.9122 BTC [+]	[20:50]
assbot	[BTCTC] [BASIC-MINING] 1 @ 0.55 BTC [+]	[21:02]
*	B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)	[21:07]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 19 @ 0.0244 = 0.4636 BTC [+]	[21:10]
furuknap	Didn't I read that ASICMiner can put 1TH online for around $10K?	[21:11]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 6 @ 0.0244 = 0.1464 BTC [+]	[21:14]
*	foglight (cef100fe@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.241.0.254) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[21:17]
fiat500	why would they do that if they are selling 10GH/s miners for $5k?	[21:18]
furuknap	They're only abale to do that because nobody else is shipping. Will you still pay $5K for a 10GH/s in one year?	[21:19]
fiat500	no, i wouldnt even do that today	[21:19]
furuknap	Right. So either they stop mining or they pay some sum of money per TH, and I believe that number to be $10K.	[21:20]
furuknap	I just need a number to illustrate reinvestment cost to maintain hashrate, but my Google-foo couldn't find a friedcat mention of that number.	[21:21]
furuknap	It's not terribly important, though.	[21:21]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2150 @ 0.00075389 = 1.6209 BTC [+]	[21:22]
*	darkee has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)	[21:26]
*	darkee (~darkee@gateway/tor-sasl/darkee) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[21:28]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 10 @ 0.02401 = 0.2401 BTC [-]	[21:29]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 5 @ 0.024006 = 0.12 BTC [-]	[21:29]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 11 @ 0.024005 = 0.2641 BTC [-]	[21:29]
fiat500	topace: does havelock have a (pull) API?	[21:29]
*	B0g4r7 (natty@163.sub-75-197-137.myvzw.com) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[21:30]
fiat500	!e	[21:30]
*	LainZ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)	[21:31]
*	KRS-1 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)	[21:36]
*	olive_ (~olive@rob67-2-82-242-209-250.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[21:37]
*	cosmo (~edward@unaffiliated/cosmo) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[21:40]
*	GordonG3kko has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)	[21:43]
*	GordonG3kko (~GordonG3k@gateway/tor-sasl/gordong3kko) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[21:45]
*	trzu (b9050851@gateway/web/freenode/ip.185.5.8.81) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[22:03]
*	KRS-1 (~foo@c-50-143-86-143.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[22:05]
trzu	anyone got an email by crypto-trade?	[22:07]
*	terryww (~terryww@84-255-240-24.static.t-2.net) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[22:07]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.409 BTC [+]	[22:10]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.409 BTC [+]	[22:13]
ThickAsThieves	I got an email from them	[22:14]
ThickAsThieves	with this inside	[22:14]
ThickAsThieves	http://24.media.tumblr.com/8ce5e54b96a4cd5bef94e80edd131d5d/tumblr_mj44lmV4LH1rv117wo1_500.gif	[22:14]
ThickAsThieves	dunno what it means	[22:14]
fiat500	hahahaha	[22:14]
ThickAsThieves	:)	[22:15]
kakobrekla	perhaps haxed	[22:15]
fiat500	would be ironic	[22:15]
fiat500	im looking for an alternative to bitvps	[22:16]
fiat500	something reliable	[22:16]
ThickAsThieves	the hack won't come until after CT is live	[22:16]
ThickAsThieves	no point hacking yourself without taking some coins with you	[22:16]
trzu	they are worse than bfl	[22:17]
ThickAsThieves	not quite	[22:18]
*	amillionbabies (~amillionb@cpe-50-113-83-104.san.res.rr.com) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[22:18]
assbot	[BTCTC] [B.YABMC] 97 @ 0.0151 = 1.4647 BTC [-]	[22:21]
assbot	[BTCTC] [B.YABMC] 1 @ 0.015 BTC [-]	[22:22]
assbot	[BTCTC] [B.YABMC] 1 @ 0.01392 BTC [-]	[22:22]
assbot	[BTCTC] [B.YABMC] 10 @ 0.01361 = 0.1361 BTC [-]	[22:22]
assbot	[BTCTC] [B.YABMC] 300 @ 0.013005 = 3.9015 BTC [-]	[22:22]
assbot	[BTCTC] [B.YABMC] 50 @ 0.013004 = 0.6502 BTC [-]	[22:22]
*	trzu has quit (Quit: Page closed)	[22:22]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [VTX] 1 @ 0.4399 BTC [+]	[22:25]
*	savetheinternet (~savethein@unaffiliated/savetheinternet) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[22:25]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 4 @ 0.024749 = 0.099 BTC [+]	[22:26]
*	cads has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)	[22:26]
*	metabyte_ (~metabyte@unaffiliated/metabyte) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[22:38]
*	metabyte has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)	[22:40]
*	metabyte_ is now known as metabyte	[22:41]
*	amillionbabies has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)	[22:41]
furuknap	Two hours left of the crypto-trade deadline... Which number is this, the sixth?	[22:49]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.4375 BTC [+]	[22:53]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.4377 BTC [+]	[22:54]
*	jorcuhodIn has quit (Remote host closed the connection)	[22:55]
*	jorcuhodIn (maurycy@alef.gds.pl) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[22:55]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 4 @ 0.02434 = 0.0974 BTC [+]	[22:55]
*	user741 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)	[22:58]
*	foglight has quit (Quit: Page closed)	[23:03]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.4375 BTC [-]	[23:06]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.4375 BTC [-]	[23:07]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 9 @ 2.4377 = 21.9393 BTC [+]	[23:07]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.4399 BTC [+]	[23:07]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 27 @ 2.44 = 65.88 BTC [+]	[23:07]
*	savetheinternet has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)	[23:11]
fiat500	O_o	[23:13]
*	abillionhorses (abillionho@cpe-50-113-83-104.san.res.rr.com) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[23:15]
*	savetheinternet (~savethein@unaffiliated/savetheinternet) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[23:15]
*	luke-jr_ (~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[23:21]
*	Luke-Jr has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)	[23:21]
*	luke-jr_ is now known as Luke-Jr	[23:21]
assbot	[BTCTC] [BASIC-MINING] 10 @ 0.54551 = 5.4551 BTC [-]	[23:24]
assbot	[BTCTC] [BASIC-MINING] 11 @ 0.54551 = 6.0006 BTC [-]	[23:24]
assbot	[BTCTC] [BASIC-MINING] 1 @ 0.5455 BTC [-]	[23:24]
assbot	[BTCTC] [BASIC-MINING] 2 @ 0.5452 = 1.0904 BTC [-]	[23:24]
*	user741 (~user741@cpe-198-72-254-100.socal.res.rr.com) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[23:25]
user741	!help	[23:26]
assbot	List of commands:	[23:26]
assbot	!ticker (desc: returns current ticker values, supported: MPEX, HAVELOCK, BTCTCO) {short: !t}	[23:26]
assbot	!last (desc: returns last price value, supported: MPEX, HAVELOCK, BTCTCO) {short: !l}	[23:26]
assbot	!mp (desc: returns the response from MPEX order)	[23:26]
assbot	!rules (desc: chan guidelines) {short: !r}	[23:26]
assbot	!exchanges (desc: lists exchanges and brokers) {short: !e}	[23:26]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.4349 BTC [-]	[23:28]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 4 @ 2.435 = 9.74 BTC [+]	[23:28]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ASICM] 29 @ 0.024749 = 0.7177 BTC [+]	[23:30]
assbot	[BTCTC] [CRYPTO-TRADE] 1 @ 0.199 BTC [+]	[23:30]
assbot	[BTCTC] [S.DICE-PT] 3 @ 0.00335 = 0.0101 BTC [+]	[23:31]
*	abillionhorses has quit ()	[23:31]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 1 @ 0.02434 BTC [+]	[23:39]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 100 @ 0.00075268 = 0.0753 BTC [-]	[23:39]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9500 @ 0.00075266 = 7.1503 BTC [-]	[23:39]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.435 BTC [+]	[23:43]
assbot	[BTCTC] [BASIC-MINING] 1 @ 0.567999 BTC [+]	[23:47]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 2.4091 BTC [-]	[23:47]
assbot	[BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 17 @ 2.409 = 40.953 BTC [-]	[23:47]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 10 @ 0.02435 = 0.2435 BTC [+]	[23:48]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 1 @ 0.02439 BTC [+]	[23:50]
*	savetheinternet has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)	[23:52]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 1 @ 0.02439 BTC [+]	[23:52]
assbot	[BTCTC] [TAT.ASICMINER] 14 @ 0.02439 = 0.3415 BTC [+]	[23:53]
*	GordonGekko has quit (Quit: leaving)	[23:54]
*	sikbwoy (42577530@gateway/web/freenode/ip.66.87.117.48) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[23:56]

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