Forum logs for 25 Dec 2013

Sunday, 24 November, Year 11 d.Tr. | Author: Mircea Popescu
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* Now talking on #bitcoin-assets [01:19]
* Topic for #bitcoin-assets is: || - most days worth reading || - all days worth reading [01:19]
* Topic for #bitcoin-assets set by kakobrekla!~kako@unaffiliated/kakobrekla at Wed Nov 27 22:34:53 2013 [01:19]
mircea_popescu kakobrekla merry xmas :D [01:36]
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assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 46 @ 0.0032 = 0.1472 BTC [-] {2} [01:57]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11284 @ 0.00084669 = 9.554 BTC [+] {2} [02:06]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10050 @ 0.00084122 = 8.4543 BTC [-] [02:20]
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benkay [03:39]
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assbot [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 7350 @ 0.00010546 = 0.7751 BTC [-] {3} [03:53]
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assbot [HAVELOCK] [SFI] 313 @ 0.001 = 0.313 BTC [04:00]
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benkay u guise let me tell you about mastercoin [04:09]
benkay its gonna distribute your butt [04:09]
benkay all your butts are distribute but only on mastercoin lolol [04:10]
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Duffer1 omgwheredoisendmybtc?! [04:16]
Duffer1 i need to get on dat train [04:16]
thestringpuller ;;bc,24hprc [04:18]
gribble 667.50 [04:18]
Duffer1 just need my doges to x2 before i get in on that [04:18]
monolithik doge to da moon [04:18]
monolithik seriously though some guy is making an altcoin builder, theres gonna be tens of thousands of them fairly soon [04:21]
monolithik [04:21]
the20year hopefully i can get mine up prior :( [04:23]
Duffer1 rentalstarter coin? :D [04:23]
the20year YEs [04:24]
the20year Property & Asset backed cryptocoin [04:24]
Duffer1 sounds like bitshares [04:24]
the20year Yep [04:24]
Duffer1 ah [04:25]
the20year Pretty similar to how they're doing it, except that there's a extra # of coins per block found that goes back to the 'foundation' ala freicoin. Said coins are used to buy property/investments, which then cashflow back to the coinholders [04:25]
Duffer1 that's interesting [04:26]
monolithik who controls the 'foundation'? [04:26]
Duffer1 probably rentalstarter [04:27]
the20year So, then those coins are invested, saved, used to further the coinage. The idea is to have a foundation similar to the bitcoin foundation, but the financing for said foundation would be significantly higher because with each coin that's mined, more go back to the foundation then which invests in things that matter [04:27]
the20year The BoD of RentalStarter [04:27]
Duffer1 which could be a huge problem in the states unless you register as a money transmitter [04:27]
monolithik so its like an REIT, but with cryptocurrency. [04:27]
the20year The idea is that the investments will be 'anonymous' in the sense that the average coinholder only gets a monthly report with profit/loss figures, decisions the board makes, they don't have direct access to the properties. However the directors/founders will actually go to the properties and inspect them, providing reasonable insight into how efficient the businesses are. [04:28]
the20year Duffer, our corporate attourney has already greenlit it [04:28]
Duffer1 i'm shocked [04:29]
Duffer1 but then i'm not a lawyer so.. :P [04:29]
monolithik well, I'm just not sure of the gain you get from using the cryptocurrency over a regular REIT. I feel like a coin makes sense when the actual work to be performed is computational in nature, such as verifying transactions, storing data, etc. [04:29]
the20year Money flows back to the actual coinholders through active buy orders on public markets in terms of BTC/LTC, which then drives the actual coin prices up relative to the typical basket of crypto currencies, providing more value. At some point in the next 5 years, we then would set up a coin exchange where coinholders can exchange coins for goods/services produced from the businesses. It's more than just housing, I want far [04:29]
monolithik yah, I'm just not sure why you need your own coin to do it. Seems like you could do it entirely with BTC/colored-coins and get the same level of anonymity, without having to maintain your own blockchain [04:31]
Duffer1 and gain the protection of the obscene hashrate [04:31]
monolithik it just sounds like a normal real estate investment scheme, with a cryptocurrency mashed into it for no apparent reason [04:31]
the20year easier to get past SEC [04:32]
monolithik ... I'll take your word for it [04:32]
the20year I'm just in the theoretical stages, the other option is just to issue more shares of rentalstarter like we've done [04:32]
the20year I think a crypto would do better just due to where the market is on cryptos, many people are getting rich overnight with them, it'd beasier to gain investments that way than begging for people to buy shares [04:33]
Duffer1 possibly [04:35]
the20year cap rates for #3-#10 is several hundred million dollars, yet few if any of them do anything better than Bitcoin [04:35]
Duffer1 but even patent nonsense is getting thousand btc caps [04:35]
Duffer1 are getting* [04:35]
Duffer1 is getting? [04:35]
Duffer1 ffs [04:35]
the20year on what exchange? [04:35]
Duffer1 havelock [04:36]
the20year Hmm [04:36]
monolithik market cap is meaningless when you float a small amount of your coin, then place a bunch of buy/sell orders at high prices to give the appearance of value [04:36]
the20year Well in that case I Might consider HL, i'd realy like to fund upwards of $1m on the next round [04:36]
Duffer1 [04:36]
the20year We've done great with RS so far, but banks are being absolutely idiots to deal with right now [04:36]
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Duffer1 when are you looking to raise the capital [04:36]
the20year Next month [04:36]
the20year we've already had $92k worth of capital raised, relative to USD we've more than doubled it since July, $92k to $193k [04:37]
Duffer1 Ciphertrade is launching beta next month, should be live by first of feb [04:37]
the20year That's the exchange I really want ot list on , but have had a few guys tell me that it's gonna take too long [04:38]
Duffer1 i know they're finished with penetration testing, but beta was pushed back to sort out ddos protection [04:38]
the20year If I knew it would be done by Feb 1st I'd wait [04:39]
monolithik if you're open to issuing some shares via a colored-coin, chromawallet will hopefully be ready to use on mainnet by the end of january. [04:40]
the20year I'm open to just about anything right now [04:40]
monolithik [04:40]
the20year My brother is looking at doing a 2nd round at $2m-$3m , so i don't see why $1m would be impossible [04:40]
ozbot ChromaWallet [04:40]
Duffer1 pm woodtech or benny on litecointalk they could probably give you an accurate timeline for their launch [04:41]
the20year who's benny? [04:41]
Duffer1 ceo of buy-a-hash [04:42]
the20year Nevermind, I didn't know he went by benny, he's sitting 20ft from me [04:42]
the20year he doesn't know, i keep telling him to get me in touch with whomever runs ciphertrade and he never does [04:42]
Duffer1 lol [04:42]
Duffer1 woodtech is kate wood, she's heading up the project [04:42]
the20year i think i messaged her on bitcointalk , no response [04:43]
Duffer1 she's VERY busy, and pretty crabby, that's why i recommended benny :P [04:43]
the20year and he doesn't know :D [04:43]
the20year let me go ask again [04:44]
Duffer1 he doesn't know you're rentalstarter? [04:44]
Duffer1 and you didn't know he'll have a stake in the new exchange? [04:44]
Duffer1 yall need to work on your communication lol [04:44]
the20year i knew he had a stake, but he never updates me [04:46]
the20year he's been busy with this red fury/bluefury crap [04:46]
Duffer1 ah [04:46]
the20year ujdolugfiodufe8uiiusdiuedw [04:46]
Duffer1 you could always do what TaT did with Neo & Bee, offer a multi exchange ipo [04:46]
the20year Yeah [04:46]
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thestringpuller ;;seen smickles [05:05]
gribble smickles was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 4 weeks, 4 days, 5 hours, 2 minutes, and 30 seconds ago: wtf bet on the price rising rather than buying more or buying an option (or similar) [05:05]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4600 @ 0.00083477 = 3.8399 BTC [-] {2} [05:20]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8900 @ 0.00083379 = 7.4207 BTC [-] {2} [05:26]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14147 @ 0.00083557 = 11.8208 BTC [+] {2} [06:11]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2650 @ 0.00083228 = 2.2055 BTC [-] [06:56]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [DEALCO] 123 @ 0.0014889 = 0.1831 BTC [+] [06:57]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16900 @ 0.00083595 = 14.1276 BTC [+] {3} [08:53]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9500 @ 0.00083228 = 7.9067 BTC [-] [09:42]
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assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 343 @ 0.002918 = 1.0009 BTC [-] {2} [09:50]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4205 @ 0.00083143 = 3.4962 BTC [-] [09:56]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 200 @ 0.00083204 = 0.1664 BTC [+] [10:25]
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assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.3209899 BTC [+] [10:31]
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assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.3209799 BTC [-] [10:51]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 13 @ 0.32351881 = 4.2057 BTC [+] {6} [10:52]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 7 @ 0.048999 = 0.343 BTC [-] [10:56]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 85 @ 0.002917 = 0.2479 BTC [-] [11:05]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1500 @ 0.00083683 = 1.2552 BTC [+] [11:25]
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BingoBoingo ;;later tell mircea_popescu "Have a translation for your homosexuality article up. Your comment system did not like the full text " [12:23]
gribble The operation succeeded. [12:23]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6027 @ 0.0008351 = 5.0331 BTC [-] [12:30]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1550 @ 0.00083396 = 1.2926 BTC [-] [12:42]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27850 @ 0.00083633 = 23.2918 BTC [+] {4} [12:59]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9850 @ 0.00083396 = 8.2145 BTC [-] {2} [13:05]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 10 @ 0.305012 = 3.0501 BTC [-] {8} [13:09]
* Now talking on #bitcoin-assets [21:11]
* Topic for #bitcoin-assets is: || - most days worth reading || - all days worth reading [21:11]
* Topic for #bitcoin-assets set by kakobrekla!~kako@unaffiliated/kakobrekla at Wed Nov 27 22:34:53 2013 [21:11]
mircea_popescu bwahaha what do my eyes read. so some nut with a ltc denominated pnb is "making an exchange" and that's where the noobdom is all excited to go ? [21:16]
mircea_popescu you people have what's technically known as a death wish. [21:16]
mircea_popescu no other way to put is. [21:16]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 2 @ 0.072 = 0.144 BTC [-] [21:16]
asciilifeform pnb ? [21:16]
mircea_popescu pmb* [21:16]
asciilifeform aha [21:17]
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mircea_popescu teh leading british entrepreneur that was born last june and did a... leading green it company. [21:18]
mircea_popescu it's disease. [21:18]
mircea_popescu it has to be a mental disease. no other way to explain this. [21:18]
Duffer1 oh ciphertrade? [21:19]
mircea_popescu << check out self-shipping wiki. arguably taaki's is better because at least he's original in his stupidity. [21:19]
ozbot Kate Craig-Wood - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia [21:19]
mircea_popescu Duffer1 yes. [21:19]
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asciilifeform well, eventually all the coin will be in the hands of people with brains. [21:19]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform no because they keep making doges. [21:19]
asciilifeform this endgame looks obvious. [21:19]
mircea_popescu endgame is at least 20 years away. the fuck im gonna do, that's my youth. [21:20]
asciilifeform p. t. barnum and carnegie can co-exist [21:20]
mircea_popescu "Ciphertrade is a fantastic new service that will change the way you work"Ciphertrade is a fantastic new service that will change the way you work.". does that "fantastic" only sound krameresque to me ? [21:20]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform NOT when barnum thinks he's carnegie and his visitors think they're there spinning the world. [21:21]
mircea_popescu 24/12/13 Countdown reset due to delays, mailshot has copies of screenshots...merry xmas all [21:21]
mircea_popescu 13/12/13 ; Sadly the beta release we wanted will be delayed by a week or so, more details in the newsletter ; 27/11/13 We have the gui wireframes back from designers.. [21:21]
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mircea_popescu that's the news. this is how people think the reports of an it project look. [21:22]
asciilifeform the furnace still burns, steel still pours, no? [21:22]
mircea_popescu i have only one mouth and i must laugh! [21:22]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform no, you're right, i've just gone through five minutes of disbelief. i'm fine now. [21:22]
asciilifeform the occasional luser falls into crucible; free carbon that day. [21:23]
mircea_popescu incidentally, i think this may well be why otherwise intelligent people decide bitcoin is beyond stupid. they probably go through this intellectual cycle, "o, let's examine the data re this thing. what's intel got ? o wait, what ? you say what ? did what ? what ?" [21:23]
mircea_popescu in the end it's just a blank stare with a "wat" [21:23]
asciilifeform that was more or less my first post on the subject [21:23]
Duffer1 they appear to be making a try at a legal exchange [21:23]
asciilifeform microscope hammer. [21:23]
mircea_popescu Duffer1 what makes you think you are qualified to judge whether this is the case ? [21:23]
mircea_popescu there is nothing more deceiving than appearance. how do you judge ? [21:24]
Duffer1 i'm not even a little bit, never claimed otherwise [21:24]
mircea_popescu this is the topic of expertise. man walks into a bank, appears to intend to start a business. hoiw do you decide if you finance him ? [21:24]
Duffer1 they [21:24]
mircea_popescu this is the hardest job in all of banking, credit officer. [21:24]
Duffer1 er [21:24]
Duffer1 they 'appear' to be trying to go legal, but appear is my laymans perspective [21:24]
mircea_popescu understand, thinking is not a crime. not thinking however is. you can't just gloss over stuff. [21:24]
mircea_popescu well yes, but your laymans perspective can easily get you fucking killed. [21:25]
mircea_popescu does a guy in a pink hat appear to be a pimp ? [21:25]
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Duffer1 i don't disagree with you, i'm curious what the issue is though [21:25]
mircea_popescu i wish i could readily explain it somehow, save lots of people lots of pain. [21:26]
mircea_popescu ask me. [21:26]
asciilifeform what i meant earlier was, the 'doge' investors are going to do something idiotic with their coin, regardless of what happens [21:27]
Duffer1 doge... investors.... [21:27]
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asciilifeform if not doge, then lolcatcoin, or whatnot [21:27]
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mircea_popescu this is experimentally true. [21:27]
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mircea_popescu Duffer1 you recall the guy a day or two ago with the "200% is 200% no matter how you cut it" ? [21:28]
asciilifeform but the people doing the fleecing, presumably have a bit more brain, and will do something moderately intelligent [21:28]
asciilifeform and so on, up the foodchain [21:28]
Duffer1 yea poor guy :/ [21:28]
asciilifeform the way i see it, it's rather like a farmer lamenting that a rotting deer carcass in his field is being eaten by maggots, rather than himself [21:29]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform this is an exceedingly difficult proposition. my current belief is that mostly they're stupid in a different way. [21:29]
mircea_popescu they're time-stupid rather than capital-stupid. [21:29]
mircea_popescu in the end scammer and scamee make a tuple. [21:29]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform the farmer is lamenting that the deer lays dead, no more. [21:30]
mircea_popescu for it is bambi, and bambi's someone's mom. [21:30]
Duffer1 mircea_popescu i wish i could readily explain it somehow, save lots of people lots of pain. <<<< perhaps worth another article where my ignorance is yet again immortalized on your blog? :P [21:33]
Duffer1 i hang out in here to learn [21:34]
mircea_popescu that's fine, but i dunno how. at leasrt not yet. [21:35]
mircea_popescu but let me expound on the capital/time stupud tuple. [21:35]
mircea_popescu the sucker, let him be known as s, is in a rush. he has not the time to completely consider things, and this is built on a lengthy historical tradition of the same : he also "did not have the time" to properly consider functional analysis in highschool, [21:36]
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mircea_popescu which he mostly didn't have the time t odo because in junior high he didn't have the time to properly consider fractions, [21:37]
mircea_popescu and as a result learning fa for him is "learn all calculus from fractions onward", which is easily months of HIS time (it'd be a lot less time for someone a lot more literate, because of the way economies of scale work in matters of the mind. however, this is not him) [21:37]
mircea_popescu so basically the sucker's life is this escalating avalanche of unpaid time debts which he keeps extending and extending for more and more ridiculous interest. [21:38]
mircea_popescu the scammer, let him be known as S, has been doing nothing but contemplating, the minutious detail that is otherwise irrelevant. [21:38]
mircea_popescu for whatever reason, such as having a bad attitude to authority coupled with a duplicitous nature, he has managed to both escape re-education and avoid actually putting his mind to useful purpose. [21:39]
mircea_popescu he is then stuck, but also unable to admit this to himself. [21:39]
mircea_popescu and he has no money, or more properly put, he's not making nearly as much as his less clever peers from kindergarten are making. [21:39]
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mircea_popescu s naturally tries to use his relative advantage to defeat a problem, S equally so. together, they make a team. the alleged "theft" is nothing of the kind, teams reallocate resources all the time on common convention, which is hwat's happening here too. [21:40]
mircea_popescu the sad part of this otherwise heroic arrangement is, however, that it STILL doesn't work. [21:41]
mircea_popescu capital can be good. minutious attention to irrelevant detail can also be good. both need a lot of central thinking to actualise their potential utility, [21:41]
mircea_popescu and that's what the scammer can't, fundamentally, have. [21:41]
mircea_popescu the union becomes pernicious in that s's capital could be useful irrespective of him, but S's mental issues lock s out. [21:42]
mircea_popescu there we go, i'm happy with this model. it's a tuple. [21:42]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [HMF] 40 @ 0.02389999 = 0.956 BTC [+] [21:45]
Duffer1 because s doesn't have time (or taken time to learn), he's doomed to be the s in the s + S = failure tuple [21:46]
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Duffer1 equation [21:47]
mircea_popescu well equally so for S, he's also doomed being part of that nonsense. [21:47]
mircea_popescu the irony here being that if you take the list of 100+ scammers they - each and every one of them - were at some point "bigger than me", in a particular "media's eye" view of the table. [21:48]
mircea_popescu but then i'm the guy worth a billion dollars, and if you add their loot all together, you don't get a billion. [21:48]
mircea_popescu way to turn "more" into definitely less, as it were. [21:49]
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Duffer1 thank you [21:52]
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Duffer1 how to remove yourself from the equation.. [21:57]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9700 @ 0.00063366 = 6.1465 BTC [-] [22:05]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4000 @ 0.00063366 = 2.5346 BTC [-] [22:10]
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assbot [HAVELOCK] [SFI] 187 @ 0.001 = 0.187 BTC [22:29]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the scammers who 'appear big' are reminiscent of the well-known factoid of dynamite being considerably less energetic, per gram, than gasoline [22:36]
mircea_popescu :p [22:36]
asciilifeform but the everyday person wouldn't suspect it [22:36]
mircea_popescu hence why it took a while for fuelbombs [22:37]
asciilifeform 'my candle burns at both ends, it will not last the night; but ah my foes, and oh my friends, it gives a lovely light!' [22:37]
asciilifeform flashiness has very little to do with actual use [22:38]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: remember your observations about power plant? [22:38]
mircea_popescu yeah [22:39]
asciilifeform $1B, in every major city, and no advertising; no one thinks of it, or hears of it on tv, unless it burns down [22:39]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7150 @ 0.00062972 = 4.5025 BTC [-] [22:45]
mircea_popescu << the treatment. [22:46]
ozbot The stuple. pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. [22:46]
asciilifeform good sum. [22:49]
asciilifeform also reminds me of orlov's essay on 'fufflers' and their symbiotic relation with the 'victims' [22:50]
asciilifeform ( [22:50]
mircea_popescu fluffers ?! [22:54]
mircea_popescu you mean the girl on the porn set ? [22:54]
asciilifeform good 'onion' piece: [22:54]
asciilifeform [22:54]
mircea_popescu lmao! re your club orlov : i was persuaded to add a disclaimer to my article, which reads "but before you run to the interpretative races be advised that the “money” sybol is used correctly in its proper sense, rather than in what mistaken cvasi-definition you might have intuited for yourself, and this use colors the meaning of “time” too." [22:54]
mircea_popescu then i follow your link, and what do i see ? "In the unfolding global financial collapse, it is not just our accounts and balance sheets that come up short, but our language as well." [22:55]
mircea_popescu word. [22:55]
mircea_popescu it's not the language tho. it's the minds. language is but a cloth. [22:55]
asciilifeform he was the fellow who introduced me to 'bezzle' [22:55]
mircea_popescu yeah, i think i read this before [22:56]
mircea_popescu prolly cuz you linked it. [22:56]
mircea_popescu "It seems that the Russians are better-equipped to survive financial collapse than just about anyone else. They have formidable reserves of gold and foreign currency to soften the downward slide. " << actually, the romanians have more. [22:56]
mircea_popescu isarescu squirreled away ~127 tons of the stuff, and that's >6 grams per capita. [22:56]
asciilifeform possibly mongolia (or some other entirely un-drilled place) is the real champ. [22:56]
mircea_popescu russia does not hold 1bn tons [22:57]
mircea_popescu i mean, 1k tons, 1bn grams [22:57]
mircea_popescu (Perhaps this psychological mechanism accounts for the fact the Anglo-Saxon tribe still has the vestigial word but no longer remembers its meaning.) [22:59]
mircea_popescu yeah, this article should be linked more often. [22:59]
asciilifeform mr. o neglects to mention another well-known meaning of фуфло - 'arsehole', specifically in the prison-buggery sense of the word. [22:59]
mircea_popescu he has a point in that i suspect it's perhaps the easiest way to explain to the layman in laymen terms what exactly is the difference separating "me" or "us" from "them". teh fuffle readily makes sense or not at all. [23:00]
asciilifeform new prisoner is asked to gamble, he asks what the stakes will be, told: [23:00]
asciilifeform 'фуфло' [23:00]
mircea_popescu lol [23:00]
asciilifeform he things 'nothing' [23:00]
asciilifeform (one common meaning outside the prison) [23:00]
asciilifeform and plays. [23:00]
asciilifeform loses. [23:00]
mircea_popescu did any newbie ever win a cell gambling ? [23:00]
asciilifeform doubt it. [23:00]
mircea_popescu easy to stack games, especially when you have the excuse of material scarcity the prison offers [23:01]
mircea_popescu and also the abundance of time it generously provides. [23:01]
asciilifeform it is said that the newbie's mistake is always and without exception: playing on borrowed cash. [23:01]
asciilifeform borrowed -> has to be repaid. in cash, or фуфло. [23:01]
mircea_popescu basically it's the United Fuffles of America [23:02]
mircea_popescu this is a better model, they're not so much into socialism per se [23:02]
mircea_popescu they're into anything that may enable fuffling. [23:03]
benkay united stats of confidence games [23:03]
mircea_popescu the old jew joke, which is why trilema has been making the point since the naughts. [23:04]
mircea_popescu dja know it ? [23:04]
asciilifeform which one? could be any of 100... [23:04]
mircea_popescu well let me recount it for the public record anyway. [23:04]
* jborkl (~jborkl@unaffiliated/jborkl) has joined #bitcoin-assets [23:04]
mircea_popescu Itzhak is a respectable moneylender in the small neighbourhood of Fool's Crossing. [23:05]
* jborkl has quit (Client Quit) [23:05]
mircea_popescu one day an attractive young widdow that can't repay her husband's debts agrees to put out, like every other day, except with different girls. [23:05]
* benkay has quit (Remote host closed the connection) [23:06]
mircea_popescu so as to not agress the public morals, itzhak upon living her house picks up a worthless old smoked over painting, and declares it to be the payment for the debt. [23:06]
mircea_popescu the woman smiles and they part on friendly terms. [23:06]
* benkay ( has joined #bitcoin-assets [23:06]
mircea_popescu his younger brother hirsz, a respectable moneylender in the slightly larger small neighbourhood of Sucker's Lament visits one day [23:06]
mircea_popescu he notes the shitty painting, and asks his brother wherefore. [23:07]
mircea_popescu itzhak tells him the exorbitant sum he has paid, and some theory about its artistic value. [23:07]
mircea_popescu the next week, hirsz is beating down itzhak's door. for he must have the painting, it is keeping it up at night that his older brother in the pooer neighbourhood should have the piece of art! [23:08]
mircea_popescu and so he buys it, in cash, for a hefty premium. [23:08]
mircea_popescu returning the call, itzhak buys the painting back a few weeks later, [23:08]
mircea_popescu and then in a couple months when he was building a new stable, his brother buys the painting back from him, at yet a heftier premium [23:08]
mircea_popescu the painting moves back and forth at ever increasing nominal values among the families, as their capital needs dictate [23:09]
pizzaman1337 MP's stories always have me on the edge of my seat [23:09]
mircea_popescu until one day, a young girl one has hired for the purpose of cleanning the house in between polishing the cock [23:09]
mircea_popescu accidentally spills potash all over the painting [23:09]
mircea_popescu which now is no more. [23:09]
mircea_popescu quoth the distraught brothers "that stupid girl. and what great business we had with that painting" [23:09]
mircea_popescu indeed. a secure asset of ever-appreciating value, who'd not want fuffel on his books ? [23:10]
asciilifeform sequel! [23:10]
mircea_popescu lol [23:10]
mircea_popescu no scripts are new... [23:10]
asciilifeform another servant goes on a bender [23:10]
asciilifeform vomits over the now-empty canvas [23:10]
asciilifeform another masterpiece is born... [23:10]
asciilifeform the story resumes from 0. [23:10]
mircea_popescu you must be careful however, the lynchpin of this story is [23:11]
mircea_popescu " so as to not agress the public morals" [23:11]
mircea_popescu this only works in places which have "public morals". [23:11]
asciilifeform correct. [23:11]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 1363 @ 0.00011111 = 0.1514 BTC [-] {2} [23:11]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 7420 @ 0.00010708 = 0.7945 BTC [-] {7} [23:12]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.289 BTC [+] [23:12]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 10 @ 0.049 = 0.49 BTC [-] [23:14]
mircea_popescu and this story made me appreciate a major point. [23:15]
mircea_popescu intellectually, the main reason my blog exists is that i hate repeating myself. [23:16]
mircea_popescu however, i've retold this joke dozens of times, and it seems to have gotten better every time. [23:16]
mircea_popescu it makes me realise that in becoming very able to preserve through application of technology, we are losing the incentive to re-write and recall, which probably explains why we suck. [23:16]
asciilifeform just as everyone derisively laughs at 'cut and paste' programmers [23:17]
mircea_popescu just so. [23:17]
benkay avoiding social media of all sorts has made me a better conversationalist by giving me the opportunity to tell and retell a story or a pitch, refining it on based on each recipient. [23:18]
benkay contrast this with people who write jokes once for twitter and are forever doomed to hear "oh yeah i read that on your social whatever" when they want to iterate and improve. [23:18]
mircea_popescu that part is important. you have to understand your story well enough to be able to contextualize it in different contexts. [23:19]
mircea_popescu no three ring binder or company policy can help you there. [23:19]
mircea_popescu in the end, money is an expression of culture. the chase for money in se is not much unlike the making of worthless paintings as a "commercial venture". [23:20]
mircea_popescu without the attractive widow... [23:20]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform "Unlike proper retirement systems, which transfer a percentage of earnings from working-age people directly to retirees, this fuffled scheme takes these earnings and invests them in some fuffles" << do explain ?! [23:22]
asciilifeform this is how it actually happens in u.s. [23:22]
mircea_popescu is the man insane ?! or am i ? [23:22]
mircea_popescu no but the other end. a proper system is bismarck's ponzi ?! [23:22]
mircea_popescu how doth he reason. [23:23]
asciilifeform they try to talk you into dropping some pre-tax pay into a 'fund', where it turns into stocks, etc [23:23]
asciilifeform you can't touch it without massive penalty until you're a certain age [23:23]
mircea_popescu look i know how 401k/iras etc work. after all, we wouldn't have our friendly second market without them [23:23]
mircea_popescu the question is, what sort of a fool contemplates the notion that direct transfer better, let alone proper. [23:23]
asciilifeform in orlov's world, a proper system is where you rely on family to feed you in old age [23:24]
asciilifeform (or throw you through the ice, as the case may be) [23:24]
mircea_popescu no, he says "transfer a percentage of earnings from working-age people directly to retirees" [23:24]
mircea_popescu this is the von bismarck model of ponzi pensions. [23:24]
asciilifeform he's thinking of the slightly less broken soviet machine [23:24]
mircea_popescu pay 5% all your life, get whatever's there [23:24]
mircea_popescu how is it less broken ? [23:24]
mircea_popescu it [23:24]
mircea_popescu s not less broken. in the russian crisis of the 90s pensioneers bore most of the burden [23:25]
asciilifeform because it was a straight tontine, without a casino in the loop [23:25]
mircea_popescu except the politburo spent from the tontine all the damn time. [23:25]
asciilifeform they sure did. but that was collapse. [23:25]
mircea_popescu so it didhave a casino on the top. [23:25]
asciilifeform at some point 'the bezzle' becomes real, the cartoon wolf looks down and finally obeys gravity, goes splat off the cliff. [23:26]
mircea_popescu i must petition to have that phrase struck. [23:26]
mircea_popescu do you know how to contact the guy ? [23:26]
asciilifeform his firs name dot last name at gmail, i think [23:27]
mircea_popescu well what are those lol [23:27]
asciilifeform sometimes he answers. wrote to him about stirling engines once [23:27]
Duffer1 this orlov article reads a lot like our discussion on real estate rent [23:27]
asciilifeform dmitry orlov [23:28]
mircea_popescu a ty [23:28]
asciilifeform he lives on a ship, and doesn't have net access every day [23:28]
asciilifeform so he might take a while. [23:28]
Duffer1 "Ideally, the initial transaction serves as the basis of a permanent arrangement, with the victim roped into an installment plan, which keeps the payments flowing even after the fuffle itself has crumbled into a pile of dust" [23:28]
mircea_popescu must have ipads [23:29]
asciilifeform orlov's point wasn't that ussr was a paradise, but that it was a more honest sort of open air prison than u.s. [23:29]
asciilifeform fewer pretenses at 'you own your home - went broke? now get out' [23:30]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [SFI] 569 @ 0.001 = 0.569 BTC [23:30]
mircea_popescu but calling it proper ? [23:31]
asciilifeform since ussr never really had a working economy, economic collapse wasn't the apocalyptic disaster it would be in a civilized country. [23:31]
mircea_popescu it's one tyhing to say better [23:31]
mircea_popescu haha, i wouldn't go as far as to say that the litmus for "working economy" is "consumer sector" tbh [23:31]
asciilifeform it's more like: you go to a basement casino, and instead of letting you play, they club you over the head and take yer wallet [23:31]
mircea_popescu obviously the consumer thinks so, clearly visible i nthings such as "bitcoin must be a sort of supermarket payment option to really exist" [23:32]
asciilifeform and then you say to a chum: 'unlike a proper casino, where the house keeps X, they...' [23:32]
mircea_popescu but no, he said the converse : unlike a fluffy casino, where they let you play, a proper casino takes your clothes and then makes you put out a show for their porn franchise. [23:32]
mircea_popescu i mean i guess it's proper in the sense of "proper fucked" [23:33]
asciilifeform orlov's painfully-repeated point is that systems with infinite growth assumptions baked in are worse than straight theft [23:34]
mircea_popescu "It may be clear to us that fuffles must be eradicated." < ha! you can't eradicate these any more than you can eradicate moles [23:34]
mircea_popescu if yo uget them rare enough courtier chicks will start adding mole stickers to their cleavage [23:35]
asciilifeform the best you can do is to put up nets and keep them out, like mosquitos [23:35]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform but the direct transfer system has infinite population growth baked right in [23:35]
asciilifeform sure does. [23:35]
asciilifeform i don't disagree with your objection re: 'proper retirement' [23:35]
mircea_popescu terry gilliam's mole cartoon is eerily prescient. [23:36]
asciilifeform orlov is a reluctant, dour sort of 'statist', he sees mega-empires as inevitable, but likewise their collapse. [23:36]
asciilifeform hence his discussions re: how, when they fuck the populace, using some form of lube would be proper and decent. [23:36]
mircea_popescu mega empires are quite evitable. [23:37]
mircea_popescu i think the schelling point actually is warlordoms [23:37]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3630 @ 0.00063366 = 2.3002 BTC [+] [23:37]
mircea_popescu this mega empire business is a momentary distraction. [23:38]
asciilifeform orlov's prediction is that warlordoms will become schelling points again once various energy-hungry weapons systems stop being affordable [23:38]
mircea_popescu said weapons (if you mean the atomic bomb) are already useless. [23:38]
asciilifeform he plays with this in his '5 stages' book. [23:38]
mircea_popescu they rely on some very convenient separations that are no longer factual. [23:39]
asciilifeform the nukes rust, yes. the airplanes still work, for the time being. [23:39]
mircea_popescu no but i mean, bomb what ? [23:39]
asciilifeform invading flotillas, i think, is the remaining scenario [23:39]
mircea_popescu and invade what ? [23:39]
mircea_popescu the only place where that works is fuckland, and fuckland a) doesn't care and b) is tougher than you and will fuck you. [23:40]
asciilifeform china/siberian oil; whoever/american carcasses for sausage ? [23:40]
mircea_popescu afghanistan showed both points to both "megaempires" [23:40]
mircea_popescu i would not invade the us atm even if they paid me. [23:40]
mircea_popescu you get stuck administering it. [23:40]
mircea_popescu baghdad has cost in peace more than it cost in war. [23:40]
Duffer1 but but freedom [23:41]
asciilifeform that's because they stuck with the 'hearts and minds' fluff, instead of 'remove unwanted bioforms and build drill platforms.' [23:41]
Duffer1 shit where's my fuffle [23:41]
Duffer1 brb [23:41]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform you're very much mistaken. this is the us army propaganda as to why they failed. [23:41]
mircea_popescu in point of fact they stguck with no such fluff. [23:41]
mircea_popescu they simply did not have the ability to do any better. [23:42]
asciilifeform surely they still have at least one working neutron bomb in a warehouse somewhere. [23:42]
mircea_popescu the equation is quite simple : you kill more bioforms, you get your convoys bombed more. [23:42]
mircea_popescu tyhere's a maximum bombing of convoys you can bear, [23:42]
mircea_popescu and that limits how many bioforms you kill. [23:42]
Duffer1 i'm pretty sure they didn't intend to do any better, there was no plan other than 'go there' [23:42]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform and then how much do you pay haliburton to clean up and run the platforms ? [23:42]
mircea_popescu Duffer1 how'd you know if there was ? plans are usually secret. [23:43]
Duffer1 the end result speaks for itself imo [23:43]
asciilifeform probably cheaper than what they actually ended up doing (being clobbered for nothing) [23:43]
mircea_popescu the end result of a failure is not indicative of the absence of a plan more than of the poor quality of a present plan tho. [23:43]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform only cheaper on a % basis. [23:43]
mircea_popescu but there's a limit on how much cost you can bear, which caps your results [23:44]
mircea_popescu in this case at 0. [23:44]
mircea_popescu war is always a game of "there's a limit of how much X you can bear" [23:44]
asciilifeform dollar for dollar, you'd get more energy by drilling at sea. the point, i think, was to display force [23:44]
asciilifeform similar to soviet invasion of afghanistan, actually [23:44]
Duffer1 you're not wrong, but they didn't secure the peace, they didn't even secure the oil fields right away [23:44]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform and that display failed. similarly, in both cases, for the same reason. [23:44]
mircea_popescu it showed force in the sense of making everyone realise they must be killed. [23:45]
Duffer1 it seems like they created a debacle for the sake of being evil [23:45]
mircea_popescu it did not show force in the sense of making anyone likely to not try. [23:45]
asciilifeform afghan, 'graveyard of empires', etc [23:45]
mircea_popescu basically our colonies, be their russia or the us, being a little new, still have to learn on own skin the history of medieval europe. [23:45]
mircea_popescu there's shows of force and then there's shows of force. ask d'este. [23:45]
asciilifeform one russian writer, who grunted in a., opined that 'we were the kid that lifts the weight bar, pushes it up a little, then crushed underneath. afghan is a weight bar.' [23:46]
mircea_popescu forza managed to anihilate his entire house in a generation by simply not knowing the difference. [23:46]
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