Forum logs for 25 Apr 2013

Saturday, 23 November, Year 11 d.Tr. | Author: Mircea Popescu
mircea_popescu https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=181168.0 [00:00]
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mircea_popescu o hey, nice fresh drama [00:00]
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bgupta Did folks see this? http://thenextweb.com/insider/2013/04/24/paypal-president-is-fascinated-by-bitcoin-says-company-is-thinking-about-including-the-virtual-currency/ [00:02]
ThickAsThieves this drama is not tasty enough [00:03]
ThickAsThieves yes [00:03]
mircea_popescu bgupta yeah. [00:03]
ThickAsThieves paypal could "brand" bitcoin as their own [00:03]
ThickAsThieves and resist cannibilizing themselves [00:03]
ThickAsThieves but i doubt it [00:03]
ThickAsThieves cannibalizing [00:03]
ThickAsThieves more likely we'd see palcoin or such [00:04]
MJR_ ppcoin [00:04]
MJR_ hehehe [00:04]
ThickAsThieves :) [00:04]
ThickAsThieves western union is probably in a better position [00:05]
ThickAsThieves i question whether either is agile enough to do anything at all though [00:05]
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assbot [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 4 @ 0.292 = 1.168 BTC [+] [00:10]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 43 @ 0.2924 = 12.5732 BTC [+] [00:10]
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mircea_popescu https://twitter.com/bitcoin_central/status/327131323342942209 [00:19]
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mircea_popescu seems ovh owned slush AND bitcoin-central. [00:19]
assbot [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 1.14299 BTC [+] [00:19]
ThickAsThieves shoulda used godaddy [00:22]
ThickAsThieves they wont let you change shit [00:22]
mircea_popescu lol [00:23]
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assbot [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 6 @ 0.4182 = 2.5092 BTC [-] [00:46]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 3 @ 0.41810001 = 1.2543 BTC [-] [00:46]
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mod6 that tweet just staggers the imagination [00:50]
MJR_ lol [00:51]
MJR_ wow [00:51]
MJR_ just saw something on tv...now that AP's twitter feed was hacked maybe someone will start caring about security more... [00:52]
MJR_ and i use the term "hacked" very very loosely [00:52]
kakobrekla i wouldnt expect that [00:53]
iz MJR: twitter is very serious business :v [00:54]
MJR_ lol [00:54]
MJR_ oh, were you guys not aware... [00:54]
iz haha [00:55]
MJR_ that tweet moved the US equity market 136 billion dollars [00:55]
MJR_ so...kinda serious business [00:55]
iz not really, it's just marketing for twitter [00:55]
iz flash crashes happen and are corrected [00:56]
iz it happens [00:56]
MJR_ just saying...of course they do and are [00:56]
mod6 o.O [00:56]
asciilifeform the paypal thing makes me wonder: what happens when someone with serious meatspace pull starts an altchain? [00:57]
MJR_ asciilifeform: well...if they have serious pull, then they will have a centralized system more than likely...which probably negates bitcoins biggest advantage [00:59]
MJR_ so, either they create a distributed system they don't control...which means its exactly like bitcoin but 4 years late to the party [00:59]
MJR_ or they create something they control, and it completely misses the point [01:00]
asciilifeform MJR_: you can profit from an altchain without controlling it (in the sense that Warcraft gold is controlled) - simply through pre-mining. [01:00]
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MJR_ well...that is what ripple did [01:00]
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MJR_ and most people i've talked to dislike the fact that the coins were premined [01:01]
MJR_ among ripples other problems [01:01]
MJR_ but the fact remains, that if you don't control the system, it probably won't be very profitable for a company, and if you do control it, bitcoin will remain unique [01:02]
asciilifeform my prediction: PayPal will take 'paypalcoin' as deposits/withdrawals, and it will pre-mine the first million or so. they will say "take it or leave it," and plenty will take it. [01:02]
MJR_ i think more will leave it [01:02]
MJR_ what exactly would that benefit them? [01:02]
asciilifeform MJR_: free money [01:02]
MJR_ you can currently fund paypal with dollars [01:02]
MJR_ why would someone want to trust paypal with their money [01:03]
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MJR_ most people like bitcoin because they can leave paypal [01:03]
MJR_ so maybe some will choose that, but i think you combine the technical difficulty of bitcoin with the centralization and control of the current system [01:03]
MJR_ and if they do a blockchain like system, people will know how many coins they've premined [01:04]
asciilifeform paypal wants to live. so it will set itself up as a very odd sort of bitcoin exchange, where you have to buy into their scrip to play. [01:04]
MJR_ if they don't...why trust them in the first place [01:04]
ThickAsThieves paypal won't do anything [01:04]
MJR_ point is, bitcoin will remain unique [01:04]
ThickAsThieves they are too big [01:04]
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MJR_ ThickAsThieves: i agree...but theoretically if they wanted to, it'd be a waste of time [01:04]
ThickAsThieves there's like what, one agile big business? [01:04]
ThickAsThieves Google [01:05]
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asciilifeform ebay is a de-facto monopoly, so an altcoin which one can use on ebay (via paypal) will have a serious advantage. [01:05]
MJR_ how? [01:05]
MJR_ i seriously don't get it [01:05]
MJR_ i can use cash on ebay [01:05]
MJR_ why would i change from cash to ebaycoin [01:06]
MJR_ what benefit would it give me as a consumer? [01:06]
asciilifeform seems like most ebay users insist on electronic payment [01:06]
jborkl I personally use Chuck E Cheese tokens [01:06]
MJR_ how would they get people to choose this product over cash? [01:06]
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MJR_ unless they decide to stop taking cash (srsly doubt that) [01:06]
MJR_ yes...electronic cash [01:07]
MJR_ which is what everyone uses for online shopping now [01:07]
error4733 colored coin ! [01:07]
ThickAsThieves the advantage [01:07]
ThickAsThieves would be in the fees [01:07]
MJR_ so what benefit would a consumer have to say "it's the same price either way, i want to complicate the process of buying something" [01:07]
MJR_ fees for the company [01:07]
MJR_ so you lower fees for the consumer [01:08]
ThickAsThieves paypal could undermine the credit card industry [01:08]
MJR_ yes, but why would i carfe [01:08]
MJR_ care [01:08]
ThickAsThieves because you'd pay less fees [01:08]
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MJR_ good for them, you made more money, still don't see a value proposition [01:08]
MJR_ how would i get cash INTO their coins? [01:08]
ThickAsThieves saving money is not a value? [01:08]
MJR_ how does the cash get converted to their coins [01:08]
MJR_ i pay the fees there [01:08]
MJR_ and then get to buy something slightly cheaper, after using more time and adding complexity [01:09]
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ThickAsThieves you need expand your perspective [01:09]
ThickAsThieves yknow how people are trying bitcoin credit cards? [01:09]
ThickAsThieves paypal could take that over [01:09]
MJR_ i'm telling you...if you are saying that the pool of available value is the fees that ebay will not pay credit cards...then they will want a big piece of that [01:10]
ThickAsThieves they are already making inroads by releasing paypal credit cvards [01:10]
jborkl Why would you need a bitcoin credit card- just use a phone with NFC or scan to send [01:10]
MJR_ but, you haven't in any way made the process better for the consumer because I will just use my credit card to buy your ebaycoins [01:10]
ThickAsThieves *We* dont need any of this [01:10]
ThickAsThieves but joe sixpack might [01:11]
MJR_ ThickAsThieves: so if i can have a bitcoin credit card (which I know they are working on) then why would i choose to use ebaycoins [01:11]
MJR_ point is, these "alt chains" exist and have for quite some time [01:11]
Diablo-D3 ;;ticker [01:11]
gribble BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 151.19991, Best ask: 151.19992, Bid-ask spread: 0.00001, Last trade: 151.19991, 24 hour volume: 233424.28099254, 24 hour low: 140.20000, 24 hour high: 166.43438, 24 hour vwap: 151.56597 [01:11]
MJR_ they are called frequent flier miles [01:11]
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ThickAsThieves its a branding and positioning conversation [01:11]
MJR_ rewards points [01:11]
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ThickAsThieves not just about value comparisons [01:11]
MJR_ there is nothing they are doing that is new or useful by creating an alt chain [01:11]
MJR_ oh yeah, gift cards too [01:12]
assbot [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 1.143 BTC [+] [01:12]
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truff1es we should ban altcoins [01:12]
MJR_ nah [01:12]
ThickAsThieves well they dont even NEED to do it as an alt [01:12]
ThickAsThieves they could just legitimize bitcoin [01:12]
MJR_ true [01:12]
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MJR_ but therein lies the difference [01:12]
MJR_ adopting bitcoin makes sense [01:12]
ThickAsThieves not exactly [01:12]
MJR_ you will save fees [01:12]
MJR_ and have faster clearing [01:13]
ThickAsThieves Paypal isnt gonna trust their money with Luke-Jr [01:13]
ThickAsThieves sorry [01:13]
MJR_ lol [01:13]
MJR_ there is my point [01:13]
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mod6 who the fuck cares about paypal? [01:13]
jurov public transactioin record can be interesting.. but what about chargebacks? [01:13]
MJR_ bitcoin either remains unique in its decentralization, or someone creates an identical system that doesn't add value [01:13]
joecool mod6: i don't even think paypal cares about paypal [01:13]
MJR_ lol [01:14]
MJR_ anyways, thats my point [01:14]
MJR_ amazon already has amazoncoins [01:14]
ThickAsThieves its just a conversation [01:14]
MJR_ no one cares [01:14]
ThickAsThieves it wont bite [01:14]
Diablo-D3 amazoncoins arent coins [01:14]
Diablo-D3 they're xbox live points [01:14]
Diablo-D3 its not the same thing [01:14]
MJR_ which is what i am saying [01:14]
MJR_ you can create customer rewards programs all day long...that is not bitcoin [01:14]
ThickAsThieves this is why paypal would consider an altcoin [01:14]
ThickAsThieves before bitcoin [01:14]
KRS1 i just started mining bytecoins! [01:14]
mod6 http://youtu.be/h5tcAXMDxfY [01:14]
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MJR_ my point is...paypal won't say "we can create a customer rewards point system, but let's do it in the most confusing and difficult way as opposed to just creating a new table in a database" [01:15]
ThickAsThieves they make palcoins to have the features of bitcoin, without the risks of how bitcoin is run [01:15]
MJR_ the biggest feature of bitcoin is that paypal doesn't control it! [01:15]
ThickAsThieves (dont forget i started my comments with, paypal won't do shit) [01:15]
MJR_ good point [01:16]
MJR_ the beautiful thing that makes bitcoin great is that NO ONE runs it [01:16]
ThickAsThieves thats not true at all [01:16]
MJR_ the minute someone says "i run this" you just completely missed the point [01:16]
ThickAsThieves teh devs and miners run it [01:16]
ThickAsThieves and gox [01:16]
MJR_ no... [01:16]
ThickAsThieves you can tell yourself that [01:16]
MJR_ they adopted a protocol that they don't control [01:16]
MJR_ i'm a miner, i think i should get 100 coins for this block [01:17]
MJR_ i "control" this system don't I? [01:17]
ThickAsThieves lol [01:17]
MJR_ exactly [01:17]
ThickAsThieves dont jump to extremes [01:17]
Diablo-D3 MJR_: are you on drugs? [01:17]
MJR_ no...not yet at least [01:17]
Diablo-D3 or do you just like shitting out strawmans? [01:17]
MJR_ hahahaha [01:17]
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MJR_ my point is that a decentralized system can be said to be run by everyone, or no one, same difference [01:17]
MJR_ but seriuosly, if i control it, i can say "i want more than 21 million" or "you can't use it on silk road" [01:18]
MJR_ etc [01:18]
ThickAsThieves bitcoin WANTS to be decentralized [01:18]
ThickAsThieves but needed to be under control to actually get off the ground [01:18]
MJR_ the protocol can be implemented by anyone anywhere [01:18]
MJR_ huh? it is off the ground...and it isn't under anyone's control [01:18]
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ThickAsThieves cmon [01:19]
ThickAsThieves really? [01:19]
MJR_ its been around for 4 years...its still small, but any company that had the run that bitcoin has would be pretty happy [01:19]
ThickAsThieves so who caused AND fixed the fork [01:19]
ThickAsThieves everyone? [01:19]
MJR_ lol, they suggested that people move back and those people agreed [01:19]
MJR_ they didn't have to [01:19]
ThickAsThieves devs and mining pools did it [01:19]
ThickAsThieves you had no say [01:20]
ThickAsThieves i had no say [01:20]
MJR_ perhaps we need to understand what "control" means [01:20]
ThickAsThieves no [01:20]
ThickAsThieves you want it to mean total control [01:20]
MJR_ if one of those people controlled it, they wouldn't have had to ask [01:20]
ThickAsThieves devs dont need to ask [01:20]
MJR_ and you could have kept on mining the longer chain until it became invalid [01:20]
MJR_ devs did ask [01:20]
ThickAsThieves they barely need to ask each other [01:20]
MJR_ huh? [01:20]
MJR_ they turned off the miners machines? [01:20]
MJR_ they didn't have to ask the mining pool operators [01:21]
gribble There are currently 159761.04 bitcoins demanded at or over 50.0 USD, worth 14120174.0375 USD in total. | Data vintage: 0.0096 seconds [01:21]
MJR_ they just turned them off themselves [01:21]
ThickAsThieves they didnt have to change the software either [01:21]
MJR_ you don't have to use the software they create [01:21]
gribble There are currently 57796.802 bitcoins demanded at or over 100.0 USD, worth 7146181.94725 USD in total. | Data vintage: 16.2669 seconds [01:21]
MJR_ bitcoin is a protocol [01:21]
gribble There are currently 47694.042 bitcoins offered at or under 200.0 USD, worth 8461014.99825 USD in total. | Data vintage: 24.4125 seconds [01:21]
MJR_ anyone can write their own software [01:21]
gribble There are currently 57833003 bitcoins demanded at or over 0.0 USD, worth 19845908.6143 USD in total. | Data vintage: 31.6619 seconds [01:21]
ThickAsThieves yes [01:21]
gribble There are currently 74644.128 bitcoins offered at or under 250.0 USD, worth 14832772.4797 USD in total. | Data vintage: 46.1288 seconds [01:21]
MJR_ so what do the devs control? their implementation of the bitcoin protocol [01:22]
MJR_ fine [01:22]
ThickAsThieves and whomever trusts their latest version [01:22]
ThickAsThieves or influence [01:22]
MJR_ what do mining pool operators control? the hashes they produce...no biggie [01:22]
MJR_ that is the key word [01:22]
MJR_ influence [01:22]
ThickAsThieves how is it not a biggie? [01:22]
ThickAsThieves they "saved bitcoin" [01:22]
MJR_ i can ask, suggest, beg, demand...but i can't FORCE [01:22]
ThickAsThieves control only requires the ability to manipulate the controls [01:23]
ThickAsThieves not break them [01:23]
MJR_ and if everyone decides to go in one direction, i can mine my own forked chain and have my own little world...or i can go with the majority [01:23]
ThickAsThieves sounds like a great format for paypal to trust [01:23]
MJR_ no...that is like saying that since I can vote in elections I control who is president of the US [01:23]
ThickAsThieves ... [01:24]
MJR_ the point is, they had to ask at every step of the way [01:24]
MJR_ next time the pool operators could say no [01:24]
MJR_ that is the point [01:24]
ThickAsThieves who did the devs ask about releasing .8? [01:24]
MJR_ they released THEIR software [01:24]
MJR_ they are allowed to release whatever they want [01:24]
ThickAsThieves and the pools ate it up [01:24]
MJR_ you can choose to download it, or not [01:25]
ThickAsThieves anyway [01:25]
ThickAsThieves if you want bitcoin to be decentralized [01:25]
MJR_ last i checked they didn't come to your house and install it without your consent [01:25]
ThickAsThieves it needs to have an exchange built into it somehow [01:25]
MJR_ huh? [01:25]
iz they don't? who the hell was that guy then?!? [01:25]
ThickAsThieves if people still follow software upgrades [01:26]
ThickAsThieves it is not decentralized [01:26]
iz uh.. [01:26]
iz maybe there is some confusion about what decentralized means in the bitcoin context [01:26]
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ThickAsThieves i see it as [01:26]
ThickAsThieves the ability for a party to manipulate it enought to affect all users [01:27]
iz are you saying bitcoin isn't decentralized, because all the clients follow the same protocol? [01:27]
iz er.. bittorrent, i mean [01:27]
iz either way [01:27]
iz same difference [01:27]
iz same point [01:27]
ThickAsThieves because there are a handful of people deciding its fate [01:27]
iz that's not what decentralized vs centralized means though [01:27]
iz just because a handful of ppl decide something's fate, doesn't mean it can't be a decentralized system [01:28]
ThickAsThieves it can be one but not act like one [01:28]
ThickAsThieves i suppose [01:28]
iz how would you define a decentralized system that acts like one in your mind then? [01:28]
iz can you give any examples of such a thing existing? [01:28]
ThickAsThieves hmm [01:29]
ThickAsThieves i can find holes in any example that comes to mindf [01:30]
augustocroppo Define "decentralized" system. [01:30]
iz yeah, exactly [01:30]
augustocroppo It is not central to what? [01:30]
iz i think your idea of a "perfect decentralized system" doesn't exist really [01:30]
ThickAsThieves not centrally controlled [01:30]
iz because it's too abstract [01:30]
augustocroppo So there is no control? [01:31]
iz and you are abstracting what "centralized" vs "decentralized" means far too much [01:31]
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kakobrekla go troll -dev [01:31]
ThickAsThieves but the conversation did move to that [01:31]
ThickAsThieves mainly i was saying that devs have ability to ruin bitcoin [01:31]
ThickAsThieves and mjr disagreed [01:32]
ThickAsThieves anywho [01:32]
ThickAsThieves i'll stop [01:32]
augustocroppo So, no more debate? [01:34]
ThickAsThieves got too semantic [01:34]
augustocroppo Someone told me that IRC is where the most important subjects related to Bitcoin are discussed. [01:34]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 7 @ 0.4548 = 3.1836 BTC [+] [01:35]
truff1es "most important" [01:35]
ThickAsThieves this room has been kinda dead lately [01:35]
kakobrekla too much ppl [01:35]
truff1es there arent too many people in here compared to otc [01:35]
ThickAsThieves or bitcoin-anal [01:36]
truff1es haha [01:36]
ThickAsThieves turns out the bitcoin-anal crew actually are a little anal [01:36]
truff1es they actually seem to like discussing things in there [01:36]
MJR_ what is bitcoin-anal? [01:36]
ThickAsThieves its half noobs and half chart firends [01:36]
truff1es analysis [01:37]
ThickAsThieves fiends* [01:37]
MJR_ sorry had to run downstairs [01:37]
MJR_ anyway, my point is that a free market is the most efficient system so far [01:37]
MJR_ so, bitcoin is closest to that ideal...if people don't like the devs, they will build their own software [01:37]
MJR_ (this is extremely likely) [01:37]
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truff1es if you build it, they will come [01:38]
Scrat please no more litecoin clones [01:38]
MJR_ if people don't like the mining pools decisions, they will join a different one [01:38]
mod6 think of HTTP or SMTP before modern clients, guys either used something like lynx or elm [01:38]
ThickAsThieves will take some big mistakes along the way [01:38]
MJR_ Scrat: no, not an alt chain...you can build bitcoin software yourself [01:38]
MJR_ mod6: exactly [01:39]
MJR_ http is a protocol, i can write a browser to use that protocol [01:39]
mod6 eventually they'll get us that spec and some more dev's will be off to the races on their own client [01:39]
ThickAsThieves the conversation did stem from how an entity like Paypal would never touch bitcoin because of these factors [01:40]
MJR_ saying that the guys who made netscape navigator could have ruined the internet is pretty unlikely [01:40]
jurov no, ie6 almost ruined it :D [01:40]
ThickAsThieves not comparable [01:40]
MJR_ jurov: LOL yeas [01:40]
MJR_ it is exactly the same thing [01:40]
mod6 lol or netscape6 ... eek! [01:40]
MJR_ a protocol [01:41]
KRS1 nutscrape sucked [01:41]
truff1es the pain and suffering "shivers" [01:41]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 6 @ 0.4548 = 2.7288 BTC [+] [01:41]
augustocroppo Free market is not a "system"... [01:41]
MJR_ it is [01:41]
truff1es *shivers* [01:41]
augustocroppo From where you got that? [01:41]
kakobrekla v0.8 almost ruined it [01:41]
KRS1 i just started the channel #bitcoin-anal, everyobody's welcome to come [01:41]
ThickAsThieves come in you anal? [01:41]
MJR_ A free market is a market structure in which the distribution and costs of goods and services, along with the structure and hierarchy between capital and consumer goods, are coordinated by supply and demand unhindered by external regulation or control by government or monopolies [01:41]
error4733 call MP [01:41]
KRS1 yes it will be fun [01:41]
mod6 haha [01:41]
jurov i prefer #bitcoin-circlejerk [01:41]
truff1es too unnatural sorry [01:42]
KRS1 those are for the alt-coins [01:42]
kakobrekla ;;ud circlejerk [01:42]
gribble http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=circlejerk | To kneel in a circle with others and pleasure oneself. Also refers to a pompous, self-congratulatory discussion where little to no progress is made. [01:42]
MJR_ that is basically describing a system [01:42]
KRS1 ;;ud paleface [01:42]
gribble http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=paleface | A common term used by native Americans to classify white people. [01:42]
augustocroppo Right, and what exactly the "free" means in all that structure? [01:42]
MJR_ it means that there is no external regulation [01:42]
truff1es free... [01:42]
truff1es that word should be banned [01:42]
MJR_ within this system, everyone is able to impact it as much as they can [01:43]
ThickAsThieves guys, getting semantic about everything is worse than a circlejerk [01:43]
MJR_ your ability to impact it is only limited by YOUR ability to impact it [01:43]
MJR_ i'm not trying to get semantic [01:43]
MJR_ but i agree totally [01:43]
truff1es i am [01:43]
augustocroppo Free of external regulation? But what boundaries define what is out and what is in? [01:43]
jurov /o [01:43]
MJR_ lol [01:43]
ThickAsThieves what is a system? what is free? what is is? [01:43]
MJR_ hahaha [01:43]
MJR_ good point [01:43]
MJR_ point is, competition... [01:44]
KRS1 the answer lies in...#bitcoin-anal [01:44]
KRS1 Everyone gets it in the end [01:44]
ThickAsThieves i dont do anal [01:44]
MJR_ hehehe [01:44]
augustocroppo I think this concept of "free" market is just a fictional idea... [01:44]
jurov and it isn't always most effective anyway. [01:44]
mod6 does -anal come with fees? [01:44]
KRS1 in one way or another, jack [01:44]
mod6 ;D [01:44]
KRS1 lol [01:44]
MJR_ well...since i said it is a system, which is what you disagreed with, systems are abstract concepts...the current implementation of our economy has some features that are based on a free market economy [01:45]
truff1es join #bitcoin-analysis more discussions that you desire imo [01:45]
MJR_ anyway, since anyone can create software to use the bitcoin protocol, people will create the best one, as long as its worthwhile for them [01:45]
ThickAsThieves careful, if you arent predicting where the price is going, btc-anal crew gets antsy [01:45]
MJR_ since anyone can start a mining pool, the best mining pool will win [01:46]
MJR_ etc [01:46]
augustocroppo Thank you by the tip, I am lost in the Freenode server... [01:46]
MJR_ everyone is free to compete with everyone [01:46]
jurov nope.easiest one will win [01:46]
truff1es yea there are many channels for bitcoin [01:46]
ThickAsThieves ^ [01:46]
MJR_ lol, bitcoin is slowly taking over freenode [01:46]
ThickAsThieves or the most promoted pool, or the 'coolest' pool [01:47]
jurov yea. "don't call me skynet. i'm gribble." [01:47]
jurov ;;gribble [01:47]
gribble yes I am gribble. why do you keep bothering me? [01:47]
MJR_ if your promotion or your marketing cause you to get the most people to join, its the best [01:47]
truff1es im not sure what the discussion was about, free market rules in bitcoin? [01:47]
ThickAsThieves its about nothing at this point [01:48]
jurov about cats [01:48]
MJR_ basically...decentralized vs centralized (why a coin controlled by paypal is pointless, and if they don't control it, they are not adding any value) [01:48]
ThickAsThieves started with whether paypal would use bitcoin somehow, or make their own coin [01:48]
ThickAsThieves and whether or why [01:48]
truff1es hmmm [01:48]
truff1es why does bitcoin ned to be controlled... [01:49]
truff1es need [01:49]
MJR_ it doesn't [01:49]
ThickAsThieves it doesnt [01:49]
assbot [BTCTC] [BTC-GOLD] 1 @ 0.0099 BTC [-] [01:49]
assbot [BTCTC] [BTC-GOLD] 1 @ 0.008 BTC [-] [01:49]
MJR_ that is the best feature of it in my opinion, that it isn't controlled [01:49]
ThickAsThieves except that it sorta is [01:49]
ThickAsThieves :P [01:49]
MJR_ again...? [01:49]
kakobrekla aw shutup [01:49]
truff1es i like paypal, its very user friendly [01:50]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 1 @ 0.4548 BTC [+] [01:50]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 6 @ 0.4548 = 2.7288 BTC [+] [01:50]
MJR_ i think we just disagree on what control is [01:50]
ThickAsThieves paypal could make bitcoin "user friendly" [01:50]
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truff1es how [01:50]
MJR_ since i don't have to use bitcoin-qt, they don't control me [01:50]
MJR_ and i agree that paypal accepting bitcoin could be a good thing [01:50]
ThickAsThieves by integrating it with their own system [01:50]
MJR_ ^^agree [01:50]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 1 @ 0.4548 BTC [+] [01:51]
ThickAsThieves you dont need a wallet or to understand anything about bitcoin [01:51]
ThickAsThieves if paypal just adds it to your account [01:51]
MJR_ point is, if i don't like paypal's policies i don't have to use them either [01:51]
MJR_ if i want to send money to silk road, and paypal says no, i can still just do it myself [01:51]
MJR_ if i don't like that paypal reverses transactions, i simply don't use them [01:52]
MJR_ they could reverse bitcoin transactions if they hold the account [01:52]
MJR_ some people would appreciate that [01:52]
ThickAsThieves good point [01:52]
truff1es paypal would make bitcoin more popular other than that.. [01:52]
MJR_ it would [01:52]
MJR_ i think it may even eventually be necessary for paypal to integrate with bitcoin [01:52]
MJR_ but the point is that they are just as free as anyone else to adopt the protocol [01:53]
KRS1 how could the network keep pace with all the transactions..as it is, it takes my btc 30 mins minimum [01:53]
ThickAsThieves paypal introcuding reversable transactions to "verfied" Xcoin accounts would be seen as a great feature to some [01:53]
ThickAsThieves paypal could mitigate that as well [01:53]
MJR_ you could do that with bitcoins [01:53]
MJR_ or any bank really [01:53]
KRS1 visa transactions for instance get recorded at mind boggling speeds and numbers [01:54]
MJR_ i just take it out of your account [01:54]
KRS1 they can barely make computers/networks to keep up with them all [01:54]
MJR_ you could also use bitcoins for fractional reserve banking [01:54]
KRS1 i couldnt see bitcoin doing that [01:54]
MJR_ bitcoin doesn't do anything [01:54]
MJR_ it just exists [01:54]
KRS1 dont the transactions go through the network [01:54]
MJR_ everyone is free to do what they want with it [01:54]
KRS1 or blockchain [01:54]
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ThickAsThieves they dont have to if the coins are within a service [01:55]
MJR_ yes, they do...and the network doesn't care what transactions you do...the point of anyone like paypal creating reversible transactions is that they hold your account...they don't need to put that on the blockchain [01:55]
MJR_ like mt. gox currently does [01:55]
ThickAsThieves like every exchange does i think [01:56]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 19 @ 0.4548 = 8.6412 BTC [+] [01:56]
MJR_ in fact, eventually a small portion of all transactions will go to the blockchain [01:56]
ThickAsThieves inluding BTCT, etc [01:56]
MJR_ most will simply be accounting entries in businesses, the same way the current economy works [01:56]
ThickAsThieves everyone except satoshidice [01:56]
ThickAsThieves hehe [01:56]
MJR_ for now... [01:56]
MJR_ ;) [01:56]
ThickAsThieves indeed [01:56]
truff1es in fact, eventually a small portion of all transactions will go to the blockchain>> please elaborate [01:57]
MJR_ so, if i can attract people to my bank, where i won't keep a bitcoin to back every bitcoin credit you have in your account...i can do that [01:57]
KRS1 all im sayin is it takes a bunch of time for a bitcoin transaction to go through..credit card transactions are as fast as lightning [01:57]
MJR_ mt gox transfers are fast as lightning [01:57]
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ThickAsThieves ;;goxlag [01:57]
gribble MtGox lag is 0 seconds. During this time, light travels 0.0 AU. You could have sent a bitcoin ... nowhere, really (0 AU). [01:57]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 3 @ 0.41750001 = 1.2525 BTC [-] [01:58]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 2 @ 0.4175 = 0.835 BTC [-] [01:58]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 2 @ 0.40001001 = 0.8 BTC [-] [01:58]
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assbot [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 8 @ 0.40001 = 3.2001 BTC [-] [01:58]
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MJR_ for truff1es and KRS1: even though the transaction seems fast on your side, visa doesn't actually move the money when you swipe the card...that process usually takes place when the business gets the deposit from the bank that used visa or mastercard [01:58]
KRS1 ic [01:58]
KRS1 thats true [01:58]
MJR_ that process can take a lot longer than a day [01:58]
MJR_ not to put too fine a point on it, but visa and mastercard don't actually deal with money at all [01:59]
KRS1 so its customer -> your service/network -> bitcoin for the end transaction -> bitcoin [01:59]
MJR_ they are transaction networks [01:59]
KRS1 right [01:59]
ThickAsThieves basically its only bitcoin when you move the money out of their system [01:59]
MJR_ a "visa card" is not issued by visa...a bank issues it [01:59]
MJR_ yes [01:59]
error4733 a new toy ! http://www.btcoracle.com/ [01:59]
MJR_ in the same way that if i deposit money in my bank account, they don't store that cash in a box with my name on it [02:00]
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MJR_ that is basically how fractional reserve banking started... [02:01]
MJR_ and you can do that with bitcoin, if you can convince people to deposit their money into your care [02:01]
truff1es complicated stuff itc [02:02]
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truff1es basically its only bitcoin when you move the money out of their system>> whose system? [02:03]
Diablo-D3 your mother. [02:03]
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MJR_ mt gox for example [02:03]
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MJR_ the coins you have on mt. gox are technically more like coin certificates... [02:04]
truff1es no idea how it works there so im just going with what is said itc [02:04]
MJR_ yes, i agree [02:04]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 5 @ 0.44999979 = 2.25 BTC [+] [02:05]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 5 @ 0.4499998 = 2.25 BTC [+] [02:05]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 31 @ 0.455 = 14.105 BTC [+] [02:05]
MJR_ just saying, the fact you don't know the private key to the address you send to (correct me if that is not the case) means that you have given up control over your coins and are trusting them to send them where you want, when you want [02:05]
truff1es so it acts like an intermediary [02:06]
MJR_ yes [02:06]
truff1es for trading purposes right [02:06]
MJR_ simple rule of thumb, if you konw the private key, they are yours, if you don't you are trusting someone to do as you wish in the future [02:06]
ThickAsThieves blockchain.info is in between [02:07]
MJR_ truff1es: yes, intermediary [02:07]
ThickAsThieves they *share* the private key with you [02:07]
MJR_ and yes, blockchain.info's mywallet's CLAIM (and no reason to doubt this so far) that they do not know your private key [02:07]
truff1es private key of other end user? [02:07]
MJR_ no private key to the address you have with them [02:08]
MJR_ they encrypt in your browser, not on their server [02:08]
kakobrekla you can check js sauce? [02:08]
MJR_ not sure...haven't checked [02:08]
ThickAsThieves they must store in a server somewhere [02:08]
ThickAsThieves i can sign into blockchain from anywhere [02:09]
MJR_ they can store the wallet.dat encrypted [02:09]
error4733 they send backup by mail [02:09]
MJR_ and they have no access to it [02:09]
truff1es im not getting it, why do that when everyone has wallet.dat's? [02:09]
MJR_ huh? your wallet.dat file is stored on their server so you can access it from anywhere using a browser [02:09]
truff1es ok [02:10]
MJR_ it is encrypted using a passphrase that only you know [02:10]
truff1es so for protection? [02:10]
MJR_ so, if their system is honest and does what they say it does, they have no ability to send your coins [02:10]
MJR_ in effect, they are providing the service of access to your wallet.dat file from anywhere, as well as a client software that can craft transactions for you, but they do not have the ability to spend your coins [02:11]
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ThickAsThieves how do they accomplish their mixing service? [02:11]
MJR_ for a similar system (there are many) look at kim dotcom's MEGA [02:11]
truff1es okay thanks for the explainations [02:12]
MJR_ i think you have to specifically mix the coins, and in that case you are trusting them to send coins where you asked them to be sent [02:12]
MJR_ they charge a fee for that [02:12]
MJR_ the mixing service is not the same as their mywallet product [02:12]
ThickAsThieves isnt the mixing service in their wallets too? [02:13]
ThickAsThieves i think it's called Shared Send or sumth [02:13]
MJR_ ...no, i don't think it could be [02:13]
* joecool is now known as neofutur` [02:13]
MJR_ the wallet is not a transaction [02:13]
MJR_ if you choose to send the coins, you are crafting a transaction [02:13]
* neofutur` is now known as joecool [02:13]
MJR_ the transaction is where you are specifying that you will send THEM the coins, and trust them to forward them where you want them to go [02:14]
* joecool is now known as joecool` [02:14]
truff1es uncool [02:14]
MJR_ well, it has its uses [02:14]
* joecool` is now known as joecool [02:14]
truff1es talking about joecool [02:14]
MJR_ if you need a higher level of guaranteed anonymity, it is a great idea [02:14]
MJR_ lol [02:14]
MJR_ but of course you should probably use a nice big round number, or a bunch of 1btc transactions [02:15]
MJR_ or else it would be simple to see where the coins end up [02:15]
joecool truff1es: oh i was trying to scam on neofutur's nick [02:15]
joecool backquotes are all the rage for scamming atm [02:15]
truff1es ok gl [02:16]
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MJR_ i think eventually, there will be the equivalent of "lawyers" for crafting really complicated transactions [02:17]
MJR_ multisig etc [02:18]
truff1es so what i learned today, mt gox is good for easy access to wallets [02:18]
MJR_ yeah [02:18]
MJR_ it usually comes down to convenience vs security [02:18]
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MJR_ it is very convenient to use a wallet you dn't control...but if they are hacked your coins are gone [02:18]
MJR_ but it is really inconvenient to go to a safe deposit box to get a paper wallet you left there, but you will almost certainly not be hacked [02:19]
truff1es they being mt gox? [02:19]
MJR_ whoever you trust [02:19]
truff1es id be nervous if i had a lot of digital money these days [02:20]
truff1es lots of hacking afoot [02:20]
MJR_ so that is the tradeoff...how much convenience or security do you need, the best way is to keep large portions in a paper wallet. a little bit on your home computer encrypted, and spending money in an online wallet [02:20]
joecool you do know you could just encrypt your wallet.dat and store offline or online in multiple spots easily [02:20]
MJR_ joecool: yes [02:20]
MJR_ but every copy means one more copy that COULD be compromised [02:21]
joecool i guess [02:21]
MJR_ joecool: i don't have a paper wallet [02:21]
assbot [BTCTC] [GSDPT] 8 @ 0.003333 = 0.0267 BTC [+] [02:21]
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assbot [BTCTC] [B.YABMC] 5 @ 0.01629 = 0.0815 BTC [-] [02:21]
error4733 u gonna have a baaaad time [02:22]
MJR_ i am just saying, if i had 11,000 bitcoins...10,500 would be only accessible with a multisig transaction with the horcruxes split up into 7 locations lol [02:22]
joecool seems like a solid thing to do [02:22]
MJR_ error4733: i don't hold a lot of bitcoins...i have bitcoin denominated assets [02:22]
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joecool the biggest loss i had was in that whole bitcoinica debacle [02:22]
MJR_ check out the winklevii security system [02:22]
joecool pretty much don't put your coin in anything you don't manage if you can't stand to lose it [02:23]
mod6 joecool: you got zhou tong'd!? [02:23]
joecool p.much [02:23]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8650 @ 0.00071 = 6.1415 BTC [+] [02:23]
mod6 dang [02:23]
MJR_ he's back by the way [02:23]
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jurov mjr_ these? http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/blog/the-winklevii-strike-again-to-corner-the-bitcoin-market [02:23]
MJR_ just saw him on bitcointalk [02:23]
joecool MJR_: i thought he was in hiding [02:23]
joecool i would be if i were him [02:23]
mod6 he's a scammer, and should be labeled as such [02:23]
joecool someone's probably gonna kill him if he shows his face in public [02:24]
joecool sure someone didn't just jack his account? [02:24]
mod6 ;;tslb [02:24]
MJR_ saved them on small flash drives, putting the drives, in turn, in safe deposit boxes at banks in three different cities. [02:24]
gribble Time since last block: 5 minutes and 19 seconds [02:24]
MJR_ thats what they did with their 11,000 coins [02:25]
joecool ;;goxlag [02:25]
MJR_ it didn't specify if it was a n of m scheme, but i thought i read that somewhere [02:25]
gribble MtGox lag is 1.059392 seconds. During this time, light travels 0.00212300970646 AU. You could have sent a bitcoin across the outer diameter of Saturn's rings (0.0024 AU). [02:25]
Scrat MJR_: no encryption? [02:25]
MJR_ Scrat: didn't specify in this article, but almost guaranteed to be encrypted [02:25]
assbot [BTCTC] [B.YABMC] 18 @ 0.01629 = 0.2932 BTC [-] [02:26]
MJR_ anyways, i heard from credible sources that zuckerberg already matched them [02:26]
Scrat n of m (ssss) with encryption for the ultimate paranoia [02:26]
MJR_ Scrat: yep [02:26]
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MJR_ it also makes it seem cool, since they are like horcruxes [02:27]
MJR_ assuming of course that you think harry potter is cool lol [02:27]
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Scrat imagine what will happen if facebook adds person to person bitcoin payments [02:28]
Scrat (which technically noone will give a shit about) [02:29]
Scrat but imagine the hype [02:29]
Scrat and lol at "credible sources" [02:29]
Scrat hello tiberiusiv [02:29]
Scrat i ate beans today [02:30]
Scrat I've been farting all day [02:30]
MJR_ well, rumor, but i believe it [02:32]
Namworld The market cap is huge... people keep buying [02:32]
MJR_ the money it would take to buy 11,000 is trivial to zuckerberg...and i'm sure he wouldn't want to be beaten to some new tech thing by them [02:32]
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pizzaman1337 ;;market buy 11000 [02:33]
gribble A market order to buy 11000 bitcoins right now would take 1770138.2261 USD and would take the last price up to 166.0000 USD, resulting in an average price of 160.9217 USD/BTC. | Data vintage: 0.0013 seconds [02:33]
Scrat ;;ticker --last [02:33]
gribble 154.80000 [02:33]
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mircea_popescu one thing to keep in mind is the dynamics of it [02:35]
Namworld I don't see what we'd do with so much market cap. Not enough transactions backing it. Mostly speculative "storing of value" [02:35]
mircea_popescu market buy only tells you the state of the book. [02:35]
mircea_popescu Namworld store of value and speculation are strictly distinct. [02:36]
MJR_ ^^this [02:36]
jurov $avg [02:36]
mpexbot jurov: 150.44 [02:36]
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Namworld Considering how well BTC seems to be a good store of value, I think anyone doing a store of value is speculating. [02:40]
Namworld They're putting it aside, thinking it will probably keep increasing in value over time due to limited supply. [02:41]
mircea_popescu in a very simple sense, the speculator takes a position in the expectation that with the passage of time the price of bitcoin will vary [02:47]
mircea_popescu the store of value user takes a position with the expectation that with the passage of time the price of bitcoin will not vary. [02:47]
mircea_popescu they are literally antithetical. [02:47]
Namworld Yeah, but people seem to be doing both [02:53]
Namworld I'm not saying I'm agreeing with what's occuring [02:54]
error4733 diamond ? [02:55]
error4733 fact is we can conceptualise a money now, not 200 years ago [02:57]
pizzaman1337 well, it stores value, maybe it doesn't retain it [02:58]
error4733 yes, but many asset value change every second [02:59]
error4733 coffee, cigarete ? you need something ? [03:00]
* truff1es thinks stream is coming out of tiberiusiv head [03:00]
error4733 + a limited supply [03:01]
mircea_popescu ;;ticker [03:01]
gribble BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 154.89999, Best ask: 154.99000, Bid-ask spread: 0.09001, Last trade: 154.89999, 24 hour volume: 225856.02255002, 24 hour low: 140.96635, 24 hour high: 166.43438, 24 hour vwap: 152.06850 [03:01]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [HIM] 1 @ 1.8439 BTC [+] [03:02]
truff1es opinion isnt too subjective either [03:02]
truff1es its not possible to create another one just because people want to? [03:03]
assbot [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 1.1749 BTC [+] [03:03]
truff1es what if i had an electric car but i like using the other sometimes couldnt be bothered if it ran or not [03:05]
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error4733 ;;eightball tiberiusiv sold all his coin at 55$ two weeks ago ? [03:06]
gribble One would be wise to think so. [03:06]
truff1es heh [03:06]
thestringpuller tiberiusiv is wrong [03:07]
thestringpuller and what did we say tiberiusiv [03:07]
thestringpuller you have no skin in the game so you can't talk [03:07]
truff1es the points make sense but i wouldnt call it fact [03:07]
thestringpuller WHY ARE YOU TALKING? [03:07]
thestringpuller You are the broke person. [03:08]
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truff1es prove it [03:08]
error4733 gold is a store of value ? [03:08]
thestringpuller tiberiusiv: if your mom was a store of value there would be a huge market. [03:08]
truff1es conclusion doesnt follow [03:08]
thestringpuller gold is a store of value! [03:09]
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error4733 ok give me for you a good exemple for a store value ? [03:10]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 2 @ 0.46 = 0.92 BTC [+] [03:11]
orkaa everything is a store of value, it's just that the clock is ticking [03:11]
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kakobrekla and orkaa is getting older [03:11]
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error4733 ok, have fun in your parallel universe [03:12]
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mircea_popescu so a coupla weeks ago i followed a dozen or so domme bitchez on twitter [03:15]
* punkman has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) [03:15]
mircea_popescu finally gave up and unfollowed them. man they're boring. [03:15]
orkaa domme bitchez? [03:15]
mod6 mircea_popescu: haha [03:15]
mircea_popescu orkaa ya [03:16]
orkaa what's domme? [03:17]
orkaa ah, dominatrix stuff [03:18]
thestringpuller dumb [03:18]
thestringpuller lol [03:18]
thestringpuller jkjk [03:18]
mircea_popescu it's like... one of the many services women provide. like making sandwiches or dressing up as french maids. [03:19]
orkaa i kinda hate domme scene [03:20]
mircea_popescu why ? [03:20]
orkaa every video gets better and better and better [03:20]
orkaa and then it ends [03:20]
orkaa they don't ever fuck, fuck [03:20]
mircea_popescu well afaik it's mostly for people who don't fuck so well. [03:20]
orkaa haha [03:21]
orkaa my argument also stands for latex porn [03:25]
orkaa they don't fuck [03:25]
orkaa or if they do, it's the guy that's getting it [03:25]
kakobrekla reminds me of decafinated coffee [03:25]
kakobrekla why arent you in #bitcoin-troll [03:25]
mircea_popescu i've fucked girls in latex [03:25]
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mircea_popescu most suits have this detachable bottom bit, sorta like kid spielhosen [03:26]
orkaa i know, that's why i'm so surprised the hole isn't used so often [03:27]
thestringpuller PayPal President 'Thinking About' Including Bitcoin. [03:27]
thestringpuller lol [03:27]
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assbot [BTCTC] [COGNITIVE] 2 @ 0.1981 = 0.3962 BTC [+] [03:27]
mircea_popescu only problem with latex is it kinda gets the girl sweating [03:28]
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ThickAsThieves smells good? [03:29]
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orkaa ThickAsThieves, it wouldn't be a problem then [03:29]
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mircea_popescu sweat only smells bad after a while [03:30]
mircea_popescu much like piss [03:30]
ThickAsThieves but when she unleashes her spielhosen [03:30]
orkaa mircea_popescu, piss pretty much smells bad right away [03:31]
* orkaa had some asparagus today [03:31]
thestringpuller ewww [03:31]
ThickAsThieves well if you eat aparagus [03:31]
thestringpuller this is where I go play video games [03:31]
thestringpuller Metro 2033 [03:32]
thestringpuller In russia apocalypse find you [03:32]
assbot [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 5 @ 1.16 = 5.8 BTC [-] [03:34]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9752 @ 0.00070367 = 6.8622 BTC [-] [03:46]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9350 @ 0.00071 = 6.6385 BTC [+] [03:46]
mircea_popescu lmao so apparently there's a huge hole in wp super cache, [03:48]
mircea_popescu as a comment allows rce [03:49]
ThickAsThieves just what wp needs, more holes [03:49]
mircea_popescu schwpeitzer! [03:50]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3698 @ 0.00071384 = 2.6398 BTC [+] [03:50]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [KCIM] 10 @ 1.33597 = 13.3597 BTC [+] [03:57]
sharktopuz anyone want a chance to win a free Bitcoin ? [03:57]
sharktopuz join http://glados.cc/coinchat/r:loldong [03:57]
KRS1 i'm good [03:57]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [HIM] 1 @ 1.839 BTC [-] [03:58]
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sharktopuz nope [03:59]
sharktopuz not daniel daniel [03:59]
sharktopuz but hi tradefortress [03:59]
sharktopuz i just posted a link to the chat here [03:59]
* Now talking on #bitcoin-assets [13:07]
* Topic for #bitcoin-assets is: http://bitcoin-assets.com/ [13:07]
* Topic for #bitcoin-assets set by kakobrekla!~kako@unaffiliated/kakobrekla at Wed Mar 13 14:15:50 2013 [13:07]
mircea_popescu ;;ticker [13:08]
gribble BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 157.79760, Best ask: 158.48999, Bid-ask spread: 0.69239, Last trade: 158.48999, 24 hour volume: 193543.48962967, 24 hour low: 140.96635, 24 hour high: 166.43438, 24 hour vwap: 154.54250 [13:08]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9800 @ 0.00067919 = 6.6561 BTC [-] [13:19]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2550 @ 0.000678 = 1.7289 BTC [-] [13:19]
* AlbertTuring has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de) [13:23]
gribble There are currently 0 bitcoins offered at or under 0.0 USD, worth 0.0 USD in total. | Data vintage: 0.0043 seconds [13:24]
gribble There are currently 48565537 bitcoins demanded at or over 0.0 USD, worth 20073000.7143 USD in total. | Data vintage: 0.0362 seconds [13:24]
gribble There are currently 44143.255 bitcoins offered at or under 200.0 USD, worth 7922764.29638 USD in total. | Data vintage: 14.9885 seconds [13:24]
gribble There are currently 98491.619 bitcoins offered at or under 500.0 USD, worth 22841799.0416 USD in total. | Data vintage: 21.2126 seconds [13:24]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3256 @ 0.000678 = 2.2076 BTC [-] [13:25]
MJR_ whats new everyone? [13:33]
gribble There are currently 61938.58 bitcoins demanded at or over 100.0 USD, worth 7823432.35362 USD in total. | Data vintage: 96.2734 seconds [13:34]
assbot [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 1.2989 BTC [-] [13:34]
jurov hi mjr_ , just spotted: http://www.igmarkets.co.uk/cfd/bitcoin-binary-options.html [13:35]
jurov anyone registered on ig? [13:35]
MJR_ thats pretty cool [13:36]
mircea_popescu been there for a while, nobody yet reported using it. [13:36]
assbot [BTCTC] [BASIC-MINING] 1 @ 0.41 BTC [+] [13:37]
assbot [BTCTC] [BASIC-MINING] 9 @ 0.40001 = 3.6001 BTC [-] [13:37]
assbot [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 1.299 BTC [+] [13:37]
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gribble There are currently 161046.23 bitcoins demanded at or over 50.0 USD, worth 14647076.0603 USD in total. | Data vintage: 76.5995 seconds [13:38]
assbot [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 1.309 BTC [+] [13:39]
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* TradeFortress has quit (Quit: Leaving) [13:42]
gribble There are currently 376782.68 bitcoins demanded at or over 10.0 USD, worth 19376072.7346 USD in total. | Data vintage: 55.6013 seconds [13:43]
gribble There are currently 186963.15 bitcoins demanded at or over 40.0 USD, worth 15776400.1157 USD in total. | Data vintage: 65.5900 seconds [13:43]
gribble There are currently 219352.05 bitcoins demanded at or over 30.0 USD, worth 16876229.4503 USD in total. | Data vintage: 72.9214 seconds [13:43]
gribble There are currently 430997.15 bitcoins demanded at or over 5.0 USD, worth 19735047.4708 USD in total. | Data vintage: 77.4950 seconds [13:43]
MJR_ ;;bids 0 [13:44]
gribble There are currently 48566824 bitcoins demanded at or over 0.0 USD, worth 20170679.2697 USD in total. | Data vintage: 106.8246 seconds [13:44]
MJR_ mircea_popescu: hey! didn't know you were on, how's it going? [13:45]
KRS1 theres usually an early morning gathering of 1-n coiners [13:47]
KRS1 U.S. folk [13:47]
Scrat murcans [13:47]
MJR_ lol cool [13:48]
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MJR_ i got my best bid/ask ticker up and running [13:49]
MJR_ not sure whether to think this is an ugly hack or an elegant solution (sometimes they can be the same thing?) [13:49]
KRS1 neat..web? [13:49]
MJR_ not really [13:49]
MJR_ i'm using node.js to run a console app [13:49]
KRS1 i think node.js is the best thing since peanut butter and jelly [13:50]
MJR_ which i will then spit into my order book, i'm going to basically place an order on the internal book for every order i get from gox [13:50]
MJR_ just to test the engine etc [13:50]
MJR_ and get some market data going [13:50]
Scrat MJR_: i hope you;ve converted it to a socket pool [13:51]
Scrat on a second glance the code i gave you sucks ass :p [13:52]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 1 @ 0.28000003 BTC [-] [13:52]
KRS1 I got a fish on the line [13:52]
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KRS1 KRS1: heh, wth is this channel? :)) [13:52]
KRS1 Finally, someone to idle in my new chan [13:52]
MJR_ it is really really basic right now [13:53]
MJR_ Scrat: the code you gave me was super awesome and got me on the right track [13:53]
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MJR_ KRS1: can you explain the purpose of bitcoin-anal? [13:54]
KRS1 Yes, in a matter of words, I suppose. Maybe if I explain it to Mircea Popescu he can come up with a more simple way. [13:56]
MJR_ is it for obsessive compulsive people? fans of bitcoins and anal sex? [13:56]
MJR_ people who want to pay for anal sex using bitcoins? [13:56]
MJR_ you should put some header on the site to kinda specify, and maybe throw up a webpage for that chan [13:57]
Scrat prepare thy anii [13:57]
KRS1 ;;eightball what is bitcoin anal for [13:57]
gribble It shall be. [13:57]
KRS1 ;;eightball what is bitcoin anal for [13:57]
gribble Yes! [13:57]
KRS1 see :/ [13:57]
jurov KRH1: let's make a bot that will autopost new /dntg stuff to #bitcoin-anal [13:57]
MJR_ what is dntg? [13:58]
jurov thus giving it a purpose [13:58]
KRS1 I guess the first rule of #bitcoin-anal is that we don't talk about #bitcoin-anal [13:58]
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MJR_ have i fallen far behind in IRC? [13:58]
MJR_ i've been pretty busy lately lol [13:58]
jurov http://polimedia.us/dtng/ (nsfw) [13:58]
Scrat doh [13:59]
KRS1 jurov: that might be just what #bitcoin-anal needs [13:59]
Scrat romanian /soc/ ? [13:59]
MJR_ what does dtng stand for? oh...i feel dumb now [13:59]
MJR_ dating [13:59]
MJR_ whats new jurov? [14:01]
MJR_ KRS1: so...using nodejs have you been able to clear the console? [14:02]
MJR_ i am finding it kinda fun to see how javascripts origins shape nodejs [14:03]
jurov not there yet. it's at hello world etm. [14:03]
jurov *atm [14:03]
MJR_ i really want to get around to building a site in angularjs. with node.js on the server [14:03]
jurov mjr_ so what new... user asked me to escalate a problem to mpex... that will be inevitably axed :/ [14:04]
jurov a joy, indeed [14:05]
MJR_ jurov: what problem? [14:06]
jurov i'll maybe publish it after i put everything together [14:06]
Scrat MJR_: build something for the sake of building it with angular? [14:07]
Scrat i still think it's a hassle unless you're dealing with tons of forms and dynamic data [14:08]
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KRS1 hai! [14:15]
mircea_popescu MJR_ http://polimedia.us/trilema/2013/fire-in-alabama-lets-make-the-most-of-it/ [14:15]
mircea_popescu that. [14:15]
KRS1 MJR: I don't have functional knowledge of node.js..what i have seen of it is very kick ass though. [14:16]
KRS1 This video is wrong on so many levels, including the random little black girl dancing https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JWKmEqKaX0w [14:16]
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deadweasel mulatto-in-chief, that's awesome. [14:19]
mircea_popescu lol. what's the big deal. [14:19]
gribble There are currently 160463.16 bitcoins demanded at or over 50.0 USD, worth 14545877.0448 USD in total. | Data vintage: 114.7310 seconds [14:19]
gribble There are currently 44710.655 bitcoins offered at or under 200.0 USD, worth 8024939.68883 USD in total. | Data vintage: 0.0034 seconds [14:19]
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KRS1 heh yea they're actually pretty good- south african group [14:22]
mircea_popescu KRS1 lol the two girls on the bed... [14:23]
mircea_popescu it's their first tiem. [14:23]
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KRS1 i had to watch that video at least 5 times til i caught everything..like when they're sitting down to eat..did you notice the pictures on the wall.. [14:23]
mircea_popescu :p [14:24]
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MJR_ nice article [14:26]
pizzaman1337 another bitcoin-central problem? I missed that [14:28]
MJR_ besides the hack pizzaman1337? [14:28]
pizzaman1337 https://bitcoin-central.net/ [14:28]
pizzaman1337 "We have been compromised, please do not send any funds to your wallet." [14:28]
mircea_popescu ovh took out slush and the frenchies. [14:28]
pizzaman1337 submitted to reddit 15 hours ago [14:28]
pizzaman1337 ah that still [14:28]
mircea_popescu this is your friendly warning, if you're using them move [14:28]
pizzaman1337 ok [14:28]
MJR_ yeah...i think OVH should be responsible [14:29]
MJR_ can they sue? [14:29]
pgp2 entertaining video [14:29]
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pizzaman1337 how do you handle servers mircea_popescu? do you have your own physical box somewhere? [14:29]
mircea_popescu yes. [14:29]
mircea_popescu a number of. [14:29]
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pizzaman1337 various locations? any kind of physical security? [14:29]
mircea_popescu yes. [14:29]
mircea_popescu physical security is not such a big deal, as i was saying yest [14:30]
mircea_popescu pretty much any dc offers lockable cages [14:30]
MJR_ did you see roger ver's received extortion threat? [14:30]
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mircea_popescu i've not read summaries today yet [14:30]
mircea_popescu tbh i'm kinda surprised nobody has taken me on that bet. [14:33]
MJR_ hmmm [14:39]
MJR_ check this out [14:39]
MJR_ http://nashx.com/About [14:40]
MJR_ interesting idea... [14:40]
MJR_ but i think you still have to trust the guy running the exchange [14:41]
mircea_popescu kakobrekla https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=186945.0 [14:42]
mircea_popescu so, betsofcoin w/e scamming, blockbet scamming, i guess bitbet marks a new record of market dominance [14:42]
mircea_popescu 99% or some shit by now [14:42]
mircea_popescu MJR_ seems it could be usable to troll people neh ? [14:43]
MJR_ yes [14:44]
MJR_ i agree [14:44]
MJR_ and bitbet is the best so far [14:44]
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MJR_ i suppose if someone has money and feels like fucking over other people then it is fine [14:44]
MJR_ but people with a ton of money will always have an advantage over people without [14:44]
mircea_popescu i shot the guy a tweet inviting him here [14:45]
mircea_popescu maybe he shows up, kinda curious. [14:45]
MJR_ yeah, i appreciate it from a theoretical perspective [14:48]
MJR_ you are changing incentives [14:48]
MJR_ which i am all for...but i think i figured out the problem [14:48]
MJR_ you don't account for all the incentives on both sides of the equation...hence trolling [14:49]
mircea_popescu indeed. [14:49]
MJR_ trolling is a perfect example of not having a broad enough scope for defining "value" [14:49]
MJR_ relates to my favorite economic thought experiment [14:49]
mircea_popescu but it should be he explaining his project rather than me possibly arguing with a strawman [14:49]
MJR_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimatum_game [14:50]
MJR_ hehehe [14:51]
mircea_popescu MJR_ reciprocation is the problem with that. [14:52]
MJR_ yes [14:52]
MJR_ they talk about that later on [14:52]
MJR_ that specific experiment is limited to one round [14:52]
MJR_ but they have others that ask about multi-rounds [14:52]
MJR_ and they have done empirical studies to test what this means [14:53]
MJR_ basically, the offerer can view part of his offer as accrued honor or fairness...which is worth something, the decider can view his role as a fighter of injustice as a value, and it is rare to find a society where an 80/20 split is accepted [14:54]
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MJR_ i find it mind boggling that people view this as "irrational behavior" it is perfectly rational...if you broaden the definition of "value" [14:55]
mircea_popescu well that's always the case [14:55]
mircea_popescu child rape is probably perfectly rational from the rapist's perspective. [14:55]
MJR_ for example...almost any woman could prostitute...why don't they all do it (and not just in a metaphorical sense)? [14:55]
mircea_popescu because they perceive they can't. [14:55]
mircea_popescu those who have that perception corrected for them always do. [14:55]
MJR_ it should be free money in their eyes...except it isn't...social stigma, laws, etc all change the value proposition [14:55]
MJR_ meaning it isn't worth it at the prices they assume they would get [14:56]
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MJR_ no such thing as a free lunch...and morals have a dollar value [14:56]
MJR_ just like anything else [14:56]
mircea_popescu how many prostitutes do you know ? [14:57]
MJR_ personally...i never get their names [14:57]
MJR_ so we aren't familiar socially [14:57]
MJR_ truffles: point is just incentives can be used to create fair systems if you account for what variables people are weighing [14:58]
mircea_popescu it's quite well established that people don't do math. [14:59]
mircea_popescu this coming from the other end, ie, the deterrence effect of criminal punishment. [14:59]
MJR_ i think the opposite may be true...we all do math subconsciously [14:59]
mircea_popescu people don't care WHAT the punishment is. the only thing that makes any difference is that there's SOME punishment. [14:59]
MJR_ truffles: that misses the point, there is no bad and good, there is only perceived value [14:59]
MJR_ in that specific example (screwing guy who tries to offer unfair deal)>(sum of money gained from unfair deal) [15:00]
MJR_ it is a simple equation...you are deciding between two choices, whichever choice is more valuable is the choice you will make [15:01]
MJR_ in this case, short sighted economists view it as a choice between $0 and $10, but that is not the whole picture [15:01]
MJR_ it is actually ($0+punishing that guy) vs ($10+feeling cheated) [15:01]
mircea_popescu "I can assure you btcrow.com is not into defrauding anyone. We've processed transactions over 500 BTC at a time." [15:01]
mircea_popescu this is cute. [15:01]
mircea_popescu MJR_> it is actually ($0+punishing that guy) vs ($10+feeling cheated) << good point that. [15:02]
MJR_ why thank you [15:02]
mircea_popescu however, it's hard to quantify. some men pay women to abuse them for instance. [15:02]
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mircea_popescu a masochist could value the cheating. [15:02]
mircea_popescu most people in shitty countries (like the us) are taught not to punish [15:03]
mircea_popescu that's also a factor. [15:03]
MJR_ but truffles also brought up an interesting question...what if it all seems to me to be roughly equal in value? that is where randomness and chance play a role, a role that we have tried to minimize (though people still flip coins from time to time when they can't decide) [15:03]
MJR_ if i make an offer to you, you can ignore/reject or you can accept [15:03]
MJR_ you will accept if it seems valuable based on whatever metrics you choose to use, the point is that if you accept, its the rational choice based on your perceived utility/benefit [15:04]
MJR_ to some people, posting pictures of themselves online with sharpies stuck up their asses was the RATIONAL choice [15:04]
MJR_ truffles: perhaps [15:05]
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MJR_ point was, if you don't account for "lulz" you will never understand trolling [15:05]
MJR_ it should not exist...but it does...so wasting your time online making arguments you know to be false is worth your time [15:06]
MJR_ why would it be worth someones time? they do it for the "lulz" [15:06]
MJR_ so now that you have a more accurate picture of the value proposition, you can change the incentives to stop trolls [15:07]
MJR_ i agree [15:07]
MJR_ just saying without understanding the incentives in a situation, you can't change that situation in a controlled manner [15:07]
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mircea_popescu except the main property of trolling is that it's immune to attempts at changing the value proposition./ [15:10]
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mircea_popescu this is in fact the best definituion of trolling, and it's ultimate reservoir : people's indomitable will to dominate their environment [15:11]
MJR_ mircea_popescu: i've found "ignore" does wonders [15:12]
MJR_ how much value does someone get in a chan where no one can hear them? [15:13]
MJR_ exactly 0 [15:13]
MJR_ the funny thing is that most people do the opposite, they engage the troll [15:13]
mircea_popescu not exactly zero. for instance truffles is on my ignore, you keep talking to them, i'm like mmmmkay. [15:13]
MJR_ mircea_popescu: good point [15:13]
MJR_ although i did say if everyone ignored them [15:14]
MJR_ truffles usually trolls mildly enough that i haven't ignored, but for example eskimobob or tiberiusiv [15:14]
MJR_ they are not around very often...specifically eskimobob [15:15]
MJR_ because no one will give them what they want, attention [15:15]
mircea_popescu hey, anyone want to make a birthday cake ? [15:15]
MJR_ whose birthday? [15:15]
MJR_ also, i liked those meme pics [15:15]
mircea_popescu we could have it as the community cake so 1 year old services can put it on their site [15:15]
mircea_popescu i dunno, maybe it's a dumb idea [15:16]
mircea_popescu impossible to make something that'd work in all designs [15:16]
MJR_ actually kind of cool [15:19]
MJR_ a 3rd award? [15:19]
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kakobrekla zomg [15:24]
kakobrekla https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=186998.0 [15:24]
MJR_ lol... [15:24]
pizzaman1337 looks like they still want to do LTC [15:24]
kakobrekla price is going up [15:24]
kakobrekla ltc [15:24]
kakobrekla since teh news [15:25]
MJR_ for you to say that they are "unworthy of my attention" is kinda silly since i have been nothing but actively talking to you [15:25]
MJR_ the fact i haven't ignored you, and i don't really plan to, says that i listen to your questions [15:25]
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MJR_ and typically respond [15:25]
MJR_ point is there is disagreeing, where their motive is to discuss, and there is trolling where their motive is to get an emotional reaction... [15:26]
MJR_ fair enough [15:27]
MJR_ in what sense? [15:27]
MJR_ true [15:27]
MJR_ and if i think they are it isn't worth my time...tiberius is a perfect example, he will recycle arguments, switch to ad hominem, it is very easy to spot [15:27]
MJR_ you can judge people's motives based on what the probable outcome is...that is how we do it now [15:28]
MJR_ he pointed the gun at me, then fired...i assume his motive is to do me harm [15:28]
MJR_ but no, you are right, i couldn't read his mind [15:28]
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MJR_ anyway, the main rule for "valuation" is something is worth whatever i can sell it for [15:29]
MJR_ that is its price...whatever someone is willing to pay [15:29]
mircea_popescu https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=186041.0 [15:32]
mircea_popescu omfg all the fun! [15:32]
mircea_popescu and nobody here said anything! [15:32]
mircea_popescu maximian tradefortress etc! [15:32]
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MJR_ lol, that was a great thread, and i love erik's response [15:40]
MJR_ please take me off your list [15:40]
MJR_ ^^this [15:44]
MJR_ lol, exactly [15:45]
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MJR_ jimmy hendrix was pretty cool [15:47]
MJR_ anyway, the point is that people's genes don't matter, what they do matters [15:48]
BTCOxygen Anyone here interested in Investing on a 200% annual return asset ? [15:48]
kakobrekla SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY [15:48]
MJR_ OMG yes! tell me more! [15:48]
MJR_ yeah, i really want to send money to someone online [15:49]
kakobrekla BTCOxygen do you have a skateboard? [15:49]
MJR_ kakobrekla: YES [15:49]
BTCOxygen https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=184305.0 [15:49]
BTCOxygen ^^^^ This is what I am doing. [15:49]
BTCOxygen If anyone wants to Invest please PM me. [15:49]
kakobrekla imma go puke now. [15:50]
BTCOxygen Don't miss out the great Opportunity. [15:50]
BTCOxygen Opportunity only comes once. [15:50]
MJR_ it sure does, you would be a fool to pass this up [15:50]
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MJR_ don't let this opportunity pass you by [15:50]
MJR_ act now, supplies are limited [15:51]
mircea_popescu lmao this chan. [15:53]
mircea_popescu somebody was visiting and they were "why are you always on irc anyway" [15:54]
mircea_popescu i turn around, look at irc, it's... hey! read this! now you tell me. [15:54]
mircea_popescu BTCOxygen i detect insufficient yellow in your sale page. [15:55]
BTCOxygen mircea_popescu: I will add more if you want ...lol [15:56]
mircea_popescu also isn't it traditional to have a square box with shadow and reflection underneath ? [15:56]
mircea_popescu where is your box ? [15:56]
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BTCOxygen Also the 2800GH/s is == 3000GH/s [15:59]
BTCOxygen I will be editing this in a few hours. [15:59]
mircea_popescu thestringpuller lol that's one longass reddit post dood [16:00]
kakobrekla BMMO guy in otc? [16:04]
kakobrekla !l glbse bmmo [16:05]
kakobrekla o [16:05]
kakobrekla assy bitch [16:05]
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BTCOxygen So anyone interested ? [16:09]
ThickAsThieves The more gradients, textures, and drop shadows, the more trustworthy [16:09]
mircea_popescu kakobrekla hey, wanna go into that thread and be all like "o mem's totally right, we're boycotting mpex nao" ? [16:10]
kakobrekla .... [16:10]
mircea_popescu bitcoin is based on drama! [16:11]
mircea_popescu needs also trolling. [16:11]
kakobrekla but im a sloveny nigger [16:11]
BTCOxygen mircea_popescu: What does it take to launch an asset on mpex ? [16:11]
Scrat ThickAsThieves: i finally get it now [16:12]
Scrat thick ass thieves: bunch of bootycilious black chicks stealing your flatscreen TV? [16:12]
Scrat what do i win [16:12]
assbot [BTCTC] [B.YABMC] 10 @ 0.01629 = 0.1629 BTC [-] [16:12]
mircea_popescu BTCOxygen a business plan is a good start. a wot presence is necessary. [16:12]
ThickAsThieves you win the privelege of gicing me lifetime free access to bitfetch! [16:12]
ThickAsThieves giving* [16:13]
gribble There are currently 158341.61 bitcoins demanded at or over 50.0 USD, worth 14196719.2615 USD in total. | Data vintage: 46.7810 seconds [16:13]
gribble There are currently 46909.977 bitcoins offered at or under 200.0 USD, worth 8370931.75556 USD in total. | Data vintage: 54.7003 seconds [16:13]
mircea_popescu kakobrekla slovenly somalian [16:13]
mircea_popescu could be like a band name [16:13]
kakobrekla lmao [16:13]
assbot [BTCTC] [BTC-BOND] 1 @ 0.009996 BTC [+] [16:13]
assbot [BTCTC] [BTC-BOND] 3 @ 0.009996 = 0.03 BTC [+] [16:13]
ThickAsThieves kakobrekla sounds likea good name for a beastly street fighter character, much better than blanka [16:14]
mircea_popescu totally. [16:14]
assbot [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 1.162 BTC [-] [16:16]
assbot [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 1.16101 BTC [-] [16:16]
assbot [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 1.161 BTC [-] [16:16]
assbot [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 1.16 BTC [-] [16:16]
assbot [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 13 @ 1.15 = 14.95 BTC [-] [16:17]
ThickAsThieves hey someone should tell evoorhees to get his act together [16:22]
ThickAsThieves just sayin [16:22]
mircea_popescu what he do now ? [16:23]
ThickAsThieves nothing [16:24]
ThickAsThieves that's the problem [16:24]
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ThickAsThieves he keeps saying he's doing so much behind the scenes [16:24]
mircea_popescu he says they're working on things. [16:24]
ThickAsThieves so reassuring [16:24]
Cylta How much does cost 1 put or call btcusd option on MPEX? if price is fluctuating, give me aprx price, thanks! [16:24]
damientrog I just keep buying at this bottom price [16:25]
damientrog but I hope he does get his act together [16:25]
ThickAsThieves i've pretty much given up [16:26]
ThickAsThieves i so no reason not to [16:26]
ThickAsThieves see [16:26]
damientrog well I buy at 2.x [16:27]
damientrog and then resell at 3.x [16:27]
damientrog to cover for my losses [16:27]
ThickAsThieves yes i did that for a while [16:27]
damientrog but it should go up a lot more [16:27]
ThickAsThieves but its like swimming upstream [16:27]
ThickAsThieves feels cool to arb it up [16:27]
ThickAsThieves but then it never actually rises in value [16:27]
ThickAsThieves and divs are shit [16:28]
damientrog maybe next dividend makes it rise some more [16:28]
ThickAsThieves i guess at these prices it's not too bad divs-wise [16:28]
damientrog last one was complete shit of course [16:28]
damientrog I think we'll be getting 5x as much (my last calc using dooglus stats) [16:28]
ThickAsThieves erik argues away promoting the site a lot, explains away adding features, and barely communicates at all [16:29]
ThickAsThieves i know things take time [16:29]
ThickAsThieves but the whole thing is going stale [16:29]
damientrog hmm.. I'll ask him as well on Skype what the deal is [16:29]
ThickAsThieves carpe fucking diem plz [16:30]
damientrog it's a gold mine left to waste right now [16:30]
ThickAsThieves he's probly just enjoying the good life [16:31]
damientrog well hire someone to do it for you then [16:31]
damientrog if you want to enjoy the good life [16:32]
damientrog that's what I'd do [16:32]
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BTCOxygen Whats the avarage annual return users are interested in ? [16:37]
mircea_popescu i wonder if anyone is noticing the striking similarities between the debates surrounding assignats back in 1790s France and the current debates re bond buying/tapering going on in the US. [16:38]
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error4733 ;;eightball coffee or double coffee ? [16:42]
gribble The outlook is poor. [16:42]
error4733 ;;ticker m s.dice [16:43]
gribble (ticker [--bid|--ask|--last|--high|--low|--avg|--vol] [--currency XXX]) -- Return pretty-printed mtgox ticker. If one of the result options is given, returns only that numeric result (useful for nesting in calculations). If '--currency XXX' option is given, returns ticker for that three-letter currency code. It is up to you to make sure that the three letter code you enter is a valid (1 more message) [16:43]
mircea_popescu https://bitcoin-central.net/ << updated. [16:43]
error4733 !ticker m s.dice [16:43]
assbot [MPEX:S.DICE] 1D: 0.00299999 / 0.00339576 / 0.00349938 (2776 shares, 9.43 BTC), 7D: 0.0012 / 0.00275111 / 0.00371221 (72695 shares, 199.99 BTC), 30D: 0.0012 / 0.00318998 / 0.00449999 (1539370 shares, 4,910.56 BTC) [16:43]
error4733 Yep, better communication this time [16:43]
TomServo mircea_popescu: I hadn't, but hadn't heard of assignats either. Does seem strikingly similar indeed. I need to read more. [16:44]
mircea_popescu do. [16:44]
mircea_popescu quite fascinating stuff for the troubles at hand. [16:44]
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TomServo For sure, thanks for point it out. [16:46]
TomServo pointing* [16:46]
kakobrekla uh [16:47]
kakobrekla thats preety harsh [16:47]
kakobrekla the bitcoin central thing. [16:47]
mircea_popescu http://www.bitcoinnotbombs.com/ << who's this ? [16:47]
mircea_popescu kakobrekla sucxks to be them [16:48]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8250 @ 0.00068248 = 5.6305 BTC [+] [16:48]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 383 @ 0.00068428 = 0.2621 BTC [+] [16:48]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9850 @ 0.00068711 = 6.768 BTC [+] [16:48]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4699 @ 0.00069044 = 3.2444 BTC [+] [16:48]
kakobrekla closing down completley is bad [16:48]
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topace !ticker h sdice [16:49]
assbot [HAVELOCK:SDICE] 1D: 0.28000003 / 0.29034105 / 0.29860000 (95 shares, 27.58240017 BTC), 7D: 0.12500000 / 0.25745377 / 0.34000000 (978 shares, 251.78978676 BTC), 30D: 0.12500000 / 0.32869628 / 0.47500000 (6867 shares, 2257.15735224 BTC) [16:49]
kakobrekla and its making the thing look worse than it is [16:49]
mircea_popescu i would guess they just need to do a complete audit by now [16:49]
mircea_popescu i can see it. [16:49]
error4733 OVH as well [16:51]
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error4733 for small sum, it's perfect [16:51]
error4733 for UE customer speaking [16:51]
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topace its incomprehensible to me that anyone would use a shared/rented/vps hosting platform for anything bitcoin related [16:55]
topace if you dont own your own servers and have them locked in a cage that only you have access to, you're just asking for trouble. [16:56]
Diablo-D3 topace: BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE STUPID [16:56]
mircea_popescu topace only recently we became rich enough for most services rto afford this [16:56]
topace the iris scanners at my data center supposedly can even tell the difference between a dead eye and a live eye (so if someone kills me and takes my eyeball, tehy STILL cant get in :p) [16:56]
mircea_popescu and there's inertia in the world, people stick to what worked in the past [16:56]
Diablo-D3 I have told people at least 9000 fucking times [16:57]
Diablo-D3 not to do that [16:57]
Diablo-D3 DO THEY LISTEN [16:57]
Diablo-D3 NOOOOOOOOOOooooOOOOOOOOOOooooooOOOOOOOOOooooooooOOOOOOOOOoooooooOOOOOOO [16:57]
mircea_popescu all iris scanners can tell that difference topace [16:57]
mircea_popescu iris scanning works by looking for pulse deformations. [16:57]
topace huh didnt know that [16:57]
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topace i know very little about biometric identification, other than its fucking cool [16:57]
mircea_popescu when your heart sends a pulse the small vesells in the retina dilate. [16:57]
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topace !ticker h him [16:58]
assbot [HAVELOCK:HIM] 1D: 1.44000000 / 1.54785357 / 1.84870000 (28 shares, 43.33990001 BTC), 7D: 1.44000000 / 1.70778165 / 1.87000000 (87 shares, 148.57700374 BTC), 30D: 0.75000001 / 1.66746181 / 2.08000000 (750 shares, 1250.59635382 BTC) [16:58]
asciilifeform an iris scanner is only useful if there is a man with a rifle standing next to it. otherwise the enemy can rip it off the wall and replace it with a doctored one, for replay attack. [16:58]
topace !ticker h vtx [16:58]
assbot [HAVELOCK:VTX] 1D: 0.40001000 / 0.45057476 / 0.46000000 (230 shares, 103.63219565 BTC), 7D: 0.31000000 / 0.43977087 / 0.49750000 (1237 shares, 543.99656624 BTC), 30D: 0.18000000 / 0.41107685 / 0.73925000 (6237 shares, 2563.88634246 BTC) [16:58]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform if there's a man with a rifle standing by it a hot chick wearing just a belt still can rip anything off she pleases. [16:59]
topace asciilifeform: the entrance to my data center is manned 24/7 behind bulletproof glass [16:59]
topace or lexan, or something [16:59]
topace and the walls and floor are 8 feet thick reinforced concrete [17:00]
topace i wonder what teh roof is like [17:00]
topace cant imagine its concrete... [17:00]
asciilifeform topace: ATMs encased in concrete (as bulletproof as it gets) are routinely stolen, using bulldozers. it might help for your cage to be several floors above ground. [17:01]
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error4733 everything is useless if it's a inside job... [17:02]
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error4733 or if your wife&kids are kidnap at house [17:02]
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asciilifeform at any rate, it is much cheaper to have the owner of the servers "voluntarily" open the door. Let's say, with one of these: http://www.wired.com/magazine/2010/12/ff_collarbomb/ around his neck. [17:03]
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asciilifeform topace: do you - personally - live, eat, work, etc. behind 8 feet of concrete? if not, the above link is relevant. [17:05]
topace hehe no, i do not [17:05]
Scrat you mean 2.43m of concrete? [17:05]
Scrat jesus fucking christ [17:06]
error4733 you should ;) [17:06]
mircea_popescu whoa [17:06]
mircea_popescu this guy is like a repository of the obscure [17:06]
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asciilifeform mirce_popescu: the damn collar bomb was front page news worldwide some years ago. and before that, it featured in two separate SF films, before some bastard actually built some. [17:07]
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mircea_popescu i don't keep up so well with the popcult. [17:08]
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asciilifeform my point, as always, is that Bitcoin users are, like it or not, playing the Big Game. and this game has rules very different from everyday "public" life, and it helps to be aware of them. [17:08]
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mircea_popescu surely. [17:10]
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asciilifeform I mention the collar because it is picturesque, and because it is a simple and elegant way to have a guy without a family to take hostage do something "voluntarily." [17:10]
mircea_popescu however, bitcoin users are the balding delivery man. the 5 inch gash is exceedingly more likely than the successful scavenger hunt. [17:10]
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mircea_popescu s/a guy without a family/ a guy without a family who cares about you pointing guns at him/ [17:11]
KRS-1 8 foot thick walls of steel reinforced concrete is a bit much to believe [17:11]
asciilifeform the idea is, if you have personal cryptographic control over serious BTC, you need to be ready (and physically equipped) to fight to the death. [17:12]
asciilifeform or partner with someone you can trust, who is. [17:12]
KRS-1 i visited many data centers and the sales people at each one do a great job at making you think not even houdini could get in or out [17:12]
mircea_popescu KRS-1 all true bunkers smell faintly of pee. [17:13]
asciilifeform KRS-1: you know what routinely gets in (and out)? Replacement switches, routers, cables. That come from hell knows where. [17:13]
mircea_popescu (it's from sweat, not the actual pee) [17:13]
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Scrat million tons of granite didn't help piratebay's servers from getting raided [17:13]
Scrat therefore [17:13]
Scrat granite sucks [17:13]
KRS-1 haha [17:13]
mircea_popescu "Wells was a loyal employee—in 10 years, the only time he had called in late for work was when his cat died." [17:14]
mircea_popescu sucks. [17:14]
jcpham i think i'm going to change careers [17:16]
jcpham my new job requires police academy though [17:16]
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KRS-1 good luck if you are looking toward any kind of law enforcement or government job requiring law enforcement/police academy training. [17:19]
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mircea_popescu prolly not worth the pay in the coming years. [17:20]
KRS-1 They're taking all of the military personnel returning from overseas as preferential applicants by U.S. Law [17:20]
mircea_popescu ideally you want to be the fireman in winter, not dry late summer. [17:20]
Diablo-D3 KRS-1: its a good policy anyhow [17:21]
KRS-1 mircea_popescu: the pay was never worth anything ...I used to do it (won't mention what) but it was Government employment and the pay wasn't dick. I went back to college and entered the corporate world and never looked back. Tripled my income and wound up working less/less stress..etc. [17:22]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: some people like fire. [17:22]
KRS-1 Diablo: without a doubt. [17:22]
mircea_popescu KRS-1 now imagine all that + being paid in worthless govt script for getting quite really killed. [17:23]
asciilifeform KRS-1: this is why Blackwater (or Craft International) or who knows where else. [17:23]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform the people who do never work for govts. [17:23]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: mercenaries work for the highest bidder. at the moment, the fellows with the tinted windows are the highest bidder. [17:24]
mircea_popescu this is not even remotely true. [17:24]
mircea_popescu consider the easier and more familiar case of whores. [17:24]
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mircea_popescu whores don't work for the highest bidder. they merely pretend to. [17:24]
mircea_popescu they work either for themselves, or for the coolest bidder. [17:24]
KRS-1 Right, quite often not even market forces are at work with the mistresses for hire. [17:25]
ThickAsThieves what is a 'coolest bidder'? [17:25]
KRS-1 heh [17:25]
KRS-1 The dorky guy at the end of the bar who has the coke [17:25]
ThickAsThieves you mean the easy work? [17:25]
assbot [BTCTC] [PAJKA.BOND] 3 @ 0.09799 = 0.294 BTC [+] [17:26]
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KRS-1 What can I say its not hard to figure out. I frequent establishment such establishments. [17:26]
ThickAsThieves or like groupies? [17:26]
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KRS-1 sp. I frequent such establishments [17:26]
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ThickAsThieves i know nothing of whores, but i'd assume they, like many, want the easiest work for the most pay [17:27]
KRS-1 or coke [17:27]
KRS-1 hell sometimes you can just buy em drinks [17:27]
asciilifeform The U.S. money printer can buy you all the coke you could dream of. [17:28]
kakobrekla ltc on gox could make for good bets [17:28]
mircea_popescu ThickAsThieves depends. it may be the coke, sure, but more often than not it's quite animalic. [17:28]
mircea_popescu whores are people too, they have their tickle spots, their likes, etc [17:28]
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ThickAsThieves so they may prefer johns that look like good lays? [17:28]
ThickAsThieves for less pay [17:28]
KRS-1 yep ..i dated a dancer or two in my time..they're fun but not worth the aggrivation most of the time [17:28]
assbot [BTCTC] [B.YABMC] 20 @ 0.01629 = 0.3258 BTC [-] [17:29]
assbot [BTCTC] [B.YABMC] 1 @ 0.01304 BTC [-] [17:29]
assbot [BTCTC] [B.YABMC] 3 @ 0.0125 = 0.0375 BTC [-] [17:29]
asciilifeform I imagine that working for Blackwater is less like being a normal whore and more like being the king's expensive mistress. [17:30]
asciilifeform At least, if you're somewhere above the bottom foot-soldier level. [17:30]
assbot [BTCTC] [CRYPTO-TRADE] 1 @ 0.1999 BTC [+] [17:31]
ThickAsThieves i imagine any job like that comes with a notable chance you;ll end up killed by your own too [17:31]
asciilifeform ThickAsThieves: Chris Kyle, etc [17:32]
asciilifeform it happens [17:32]
topace so kncminer announced a 6GH FPGA based miner, and a 250GH ASIC based miner ? [17:33]
kakobrekla urlpls [17:33]
topace http://www.kncminer.com/news/news-10 [17:33]
kakobrekla smells scam [17:35]
topace at retail, the fpga chips from alterra are $$15k [17:35]
topace for 6GH [17:35]
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topace heh $2795 for the FPGA, with "vouchers for up to $2000 off of any jupiter purchase" [17:39]
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mircea_popescu kakobrekla wanna drive there ? [17:39]
kakobrekla lmao [17:40]
topace yea someone go visit them and see if they are real [17:40]
mircea_popescu lol [17:40]
asciilifeform $xxxx for ASIC; enjoying the same BTC yield as a cheap GPU today when every other chump has bought an ASIC: priceless. [17:40]
kakobrekla no loccation disclosed afaik [17:40]
kakobrekla cause its so locco [17:40]
Scrat ;;bids 0 [17:42]
gribble There are currently 57729608 bitcoins demanded at or over 0.0 USD, worth 19687676.0833 USD in total. | Data vintage: 0.0139 seconds [17:42]
Scrat been a while since we dropped below 20M [17:42]
lippoper oh no [17:44]
lippoper we're going down? [17:44]
asciilifeform topace: the only sane place to get FPGAs is eBay or the equivalent. $100, instead of paying $XX,XXX for the same chip, because of "intellectual property" crapola. [17:45]
asciilifeform topace: you will need a reflow oven, though. (make your own.) [17:46]
topace hehe [17:46]
topace right, ill get right on that [17:46]
mircea_popescu lippoper http://polimedia.us/trilema/2013/in-which-noobs-learn-lessons-and-pay-for-the-privilege/ [17:46]
topace i hear bfl has fancy in-house machines [17:47]
topace that will let them ship next week [17:47]
topace :p [17:47]
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mircea_popescu they can't because there's a shortage of fans [17:47]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: no, shortage of Jolt Cola [17:47]
mircea_popescu they still make that ?~! [17:48]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: AFAIK no, hence the shortage. [17:48]
lippoper mircea, that article you linked me to is almost a month old [17:50]
lippoper great stuff in there, but it seems out of date [17:51]
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lippoper You should update and write about yesterday's bubble [17:51]
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kakobrekla lol the original bitcoin-central announce ended with "We'll be back, also skateboards." [17:51]
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BTCOxygen topace: Maybe you should just Invest with me and forget about ASICs :P [18:00]
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BTCOxygen topace: 200% annual return is not bad tho. [18:01]
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mircea_popescu lippoper it is not out of date inasmuch as btc price does what it says. [18:05]
kakobrekla love the meta debate https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=187378.msg1941436#msg1941436 [18:15]
mircea_popescu so this is what they do with the milk! [18:17]
kakobrekla i added my reply. [18:18]
KRS-1 BTCOxygen: I read your business plan if thats what it was- I don't see how investing with you can net more profits than if I bought some of my own units from Avalon batch 4 if there is a batch 4..considering management and Dev costs [18:18]
KRS-1 Not putting your plan down or anything it does seem pretty solid [18:19]
BTCOxygen KRS-1: Management fee has been reduced to 10% [18:20]
BTCOxygen WIll update OP in a few hours. [18:21]
BTCOxygen KRS-1: The costs on our plan are similar to Batch #3 Avalon [18:21]
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BTCOxygen Still with the re-investment plan the ROI is still above ~100% annually. [18:22]
BTCOxygen KRS-1: If there was Batch 4 It would be 75 BTC per unit. [18:23]
BTCOxygen plus 4 BTC for shipping [18:23]
BTCOxygen Total of 79 BTC per unit [18:24]
BTCOxygen Our operation will have 45 Avalon Units. [18:24]
lippoper that you'll be pulling from? [18:24]
kakobrekla ass. [18:24]
BTCOxygen If you buy 45 Units from Avalon it would cost 45 * 79 == 3,555 BTC [18:25]
BTCOxygen So please may I know where my plan is inefficient. [18:25]
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lippoper the part where you say "If" [18:25]
lippoper ;-) [18:26]
mircea_popescu ;;getrating BTCOxygen [18:26]
gribble WARNING: Currently not authenticated. User BTCOxygen, rated since Sun Mar 10 14:32:15 2013. Cumulative rating 3, from 3 total ratings. Received ratings: 3 positive, 0 negative. Sent ratings: 3 positive, 0 negative. Details: http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewratingdetail.php?nick=BTCOxygen [18:26]
mircea_popescu now that's a first./ [18:26]
kakobrekla yeah a suprise! [18:26]
BTCOxygen mircea_popescu: I Have not done much trading on OTC. [18:26]
BTCOxygen But read the Why trust us part on our thread. [18:26]
BTCOxygen https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=184305.0 [18:27]
mircea_popescu BTCOxygen in general people presenting themselves with a scammy nonsense thing tend to not be in the wot. [18:27]
mircea_popescu before you ask : offering to buy mining gear with opm is scammy by definition. [18:27]
mircea_popescu pretty much not one single attempt to date worked out. [18:28]
BTCOxygen Hey We have been Operating a pool since Octobor 2012. [18:28]
BTCOxygen And have been in the bitcoin community for a long time. [18:28]
kakobrekla so you put down 0.1 btc of your own money? https://blockchain.info/address/1VbWxiGEa1d89ZigFuWWeP5CjDJSK6Xdi [18:29]
kakobrekla lots of confidence [18:29]
BTCOxygen kakobrekla: Thats done for testing purpose. [18:29]
kakobrekla O_o [18:30]
kakobrekla to see if bitcoin works? [18:30]
mircea_popescu BTCOxygen yes i get it, since oct 2012. nevertheless. [18:30]
mircea_popescu this mining farm thing doesn't work. people who can afford asics can just get them [18:30]
asciilifeform Somehow, all the ASIC "shares" schemes remind me of American chumps buying refrigerators on installment plans, with the payments totalling to the cost of a car. [18:30]
mircea_popescu people who can't aren't numerous enough to make anything of the sort you're contemplatin workable. [18:30]
asciilifeform "The miser pays twice." [18:31]
mircea_popescu there was some marginal business sense in the old gpu days, because running a large gpu farm was non trivial [18:31]
mircea_popescu nevertheless, people still chose to pocket the investor's hardware. [18:31]
mircea_popescu i think the skepsidyne integrated node is pretty much the obligatory blueprint for all such pooled mining farm ventures. [18:31]
BTCOxygen kakobrekla: That was sent to my offline wallet. [18:32]
BTCOxygen Was testing that. [18:32]
kakobrekla so you are putting down 0 of your own funds for this [18:32]
mircea_popescu well he got the idea... [18:33]
BTCOxygen kakobrekla: I will put my funds into this once I see some interest. [18:33]
kakobrekla lol ok. [18:33]
BTCOxygen I will be the second investor.... lol [18:33]
kakobrekla glwt [18:34]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 801 @ 0.00069044 = 0.553 BTC [+] [18:35]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2550 @ 0.0006914 = 1.7631 BTC [+] [18:35]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6699 @ 0.00069443 = 4.652 BTC [+] [18:35]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [HIM] 5 @ 1.7999 = 8.9995 BTC [-] [18:36]
BTCOxygen kakobrekla: Still the ROI is very good on this. [18:36]
kakobrekla pirate had better roi [18:37]
BTCOxygen kakobrekla: but pirate == Scammer. [18:37]
kakobrekla hey paid yesterday [18:37]
kakobrekla he [18:37]
BTCOxygen lol. [18:37]
kakobrekla yea he came on a skateboard [18:39]
kakobrekla dropped the bag. [18:39]
mircea_popescu no, pirate was just a guy trying to leverage "lot of trust" into "give me money", with no businessm odel. [18:39]
mircea_popescu just like you. [18:39]
mod6 holy shit i always forget that you can use `openssl dgst` [18:41]
mod6 these damn vsphere instances dont have any one-way hash bins on the local fs :/ -- openssl to the rescue ftw [18:42]
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asciilifeform oldie but goodie: http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2013/01/31/stone-soup-for-the-capitalists-soul/ [18:44]
asciilifeform "You are fair game for hustlers who understand your wealth better than you do." [18:44]
mircea_popescu i prefer to express that idea in the terms of the converse perspective. [18:46]
mircea_popescu your wealth is, much like your mistress, always ready to ditch you if you suck. [18:46]
asciilifeform "fool and his money soon parted", etc [18:47]
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KRS-1 mod6: we have much in common [18:59]
kakobrekla http://www.asicrigs.com/ [19:01]
kakobrekla lol? [19:01]
kakobrekla no i aint driving. [19:02]
deadweasel i ain't swimmin [19:02]
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KRS-1 mp: you always have such great ways of putting things lol nice [19:07]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 650 @ 0.00068032 = 0.4422 BTC [-] [19:16]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20600 @ 0.00067869 = 13.981 BTC [-] [19:16]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6550 @ 0.00067663 = 4.4319 BTC [-] [19:16]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9700 @ 0.00067399 = 6.5377 BTC [-] [19:16]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5292 @ 0.00069443 = 3.6749 BTC [+] [19:30]
deadweasel &avg [19:31]
gribble Error: "avg" is not a valid command. [19:31]
deadweasel $avg [19:31]
mpexbot deadweasel: 151.30 [19:31]
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topace BTCOxygen: i already do have 20BTC "invested" with you :p gonna make another paymetn soon ? [19:32]
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kakobrekla O_o [19:32]
BTCOxygen topace: Yea, Very soon. [19:33]
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BTCOxygen topace: Do you want to invest those into Our Project ? [19:34]
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BTCOxygen Then you would have 40 BTC :P [19:34]
mircea_popescu topace ok, wut ? [19:35]
BTCOxygen secret. :P [19:35]
mircea_popescu did you default on some obligation and end up with a payment schedule sort of arrangement ? [19:36]
BTCOxygen mircea_popescu: No, He is still getting payments. Buts its secret. [19:37]
BTCOxygen but* [19:38]
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BTCOxygen topace: btw... I have sent you a PM. [19:42]
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seongyupyoo hello? [19:45]
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kakobrekla yes, this is dog. [19:47]
seongyupyoo dog? [19:47]
kakobrekla http://pigroll.com/img/hello_yes_this_is_dog.jpg [19:47]
seongyupyoo lol [19:48]
topace mircea_popescu: not really secret, i started mining with btcoxygen when he first started to help "test" his site... I asked for payment on the account from the hashes i contributed, but he didnt have the btc, so he's paying me slowly as he can. [19:48]
kakobrekla which site? [19:48]
topace btcoxygen.com [19:49]
seongyupyoo is mircea here? I got a tweet from him asking to join this chatroom about nashx [19:49]
kakobrekla he is around [19:49]
mircea_popescu seongyupyoo heya [19:49]
seongyupyoo hey! sorry about 5hrs late [19:49]
mircea_popescu topace you mined on his pool yet he didn't have the btc ?! odd. anyway, thanks. [19:49]
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mircea_popescu seongyupyoo so we were discussing your idea earlier, the nashx [19:49]
kakobrekla which idea is that [19:50]
seongyupyoo yeah [19:50]
mircea_popescu kakobrekla nashx.com/about i think [19:50]
mircea_popescu one major question is how do you deal with trolls ? [19:50]
seongyupyoo yes [19:50]
topace mircea_popescu: yea, guess he didnt find a block for a while, but was still doign PPS [19:50]
topace and didnt have a "float" to cover bad luck [19:50]
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mircea_popescu say I just make a deal in order to destroy opm. just for the kicks. [19:50]
mircea_popescu topace ah yeah. i see. [19:50]
mircea_popescu isn't pps kinda a bad model for mining ? as in, high risk of pool bankruptcy ? [19:51]
BTCOxygen topace: Yes, Also the mining server was not funtioning correctly at that time. [19:51]
kakobrekla only for small ones [19:51]
seongyupyoo you understand both parties of the trade risk same amount going into a deal? [19:51]
BTCOxygen It was a bug that never sent in blocks to bitcoind which is fixed now. [19:51]
topace yea, a few days of bad luck can bankrupt a small pool that doesnt have a good float [19:51]
mircea_popescu seongyupyoo yes. [19:51]
asciilifeform NashX seems like a pretty good idea. It reminds me of my "Shitcoin" proposal (http://www.loper-os.org/?p=988). The real problem is that the "destruction" isn't real destruction - somebody ends up with the BTC. Moral hazard. [19:51]
BTCOxygen But I have been paying you from my pocket. [19:51]
seongyupyoo i don't think there is anything that can be done about those types of people who don't mind just throwing away money for kicks [19:52]
topace too bad you didnt pay it all back at $8/btc :p [19:52]
mircea_popescu ok, another question seongyupyoo [19:52]
seongyupyoo i was thinking there won't be any [19:52]
mircea_popescu suppose i want to sell 100 btc. [19:52]
mircea_popescu someone wants to buy just 1.5 [19:52]
seongyupyoo ok [19:52]
mircea_popescu can we deal or does he have to do 100 specifically ? [19:52]
seongyupyoo in that case, he or you can make an offer for 1.5 for certain amount, and you should require both risking 3 [19:52]
mircea_popescu so i would need to make a new offer basically ? [19:53]
mircea_popescu MJR_ ^ [19:53]
seongyupyoo yes [19:54]
seongyupyoo why what do you think might be better? [19:54]
mircea_popescu seongyupyoo atm just trying to understand the system in my head. [19:54]
seongyupyoo you would not be making a 100 btc sale offer i don't think ever [19:54]
mircea_popescu what about the byzantine problem ? ie, we both satisfy trade, i wait for him to release and then [19:54]
mircea_popescu i destroy his coins anyway. [19:54]
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seongyupyoo when one decides to destroy, all risked funds get destroyed including your own [19:55]
mircea_popescu how do you implement this ? [19:55]
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seongyupyoo well all funds are at risk as long as both have released it, and when anyone destroys, it destroys all funds [19:56]
mircea_popescu yes but i mean... this is all handled at the website level ? [19:56]
mircea_popescu ie, your own software does this ? [19:56]
seongyupyoo yes [19:56]
asciilifeform seongyupyoo: using the word "destroy" when the BTC ends up in your pocket is disingenuous [19:56]
mircea_popescu how is the destruction actually implemented ? [19:57]
seongyupyoo yes, i won't be keeping in in the near future [19:57]
mircea_popescu sent to 10000000000000we ? [19:57]
seongyupyoo it will be distributed to active traders [19:57]
mircea_popescu o [19:57]
mircea_popescu well wait. [19:57]
mircea_popescu if im the most active trader i have a perverse incentive to scam ? [19:57]
seongyupyoo i just don't want to go into coding all of that without knowing that this app will get any traction [19:57]
seongyupyoo so i just wanted to get something working out there for people to see [19:57]
mircea_popescu seongyupyoo it's got my interest, which as anyone will tell you is darned rare. [19:57]
seongyupyoo gather feedback and go from there [19:58]
seongyupyoo that's pretty cool :) [19:58]
mircea_popescu so suppose i do 80% of trade on yoru site. does this mean i get 80% of all "Destroyed" funds ? [19:58]
seongyupyoo well sounds like you're exactly the type of person i would want trading on nashx, so let me know what you think, and i'll try to make it work for you, and that should work for everyone [19:59]
mircea_popescu lol that's an idea. [19:59]
seongyupyoo that is an idea... i was originally thinking i would just see past few days logins and distribute evenly, as that would be the easiest to implement [19:59]
seongyupyoo but what you're suggesting is possible [20:00]
mircea_popescu i was asking because i think it's a horrible idea. [20:00]
seongyupyoo not sure if it's better idea though yet [20:00]
seongyupyoo why? [20:00]
asciilifeform why not use actual destruction (send to a blackhole address) ? [20:00]
mircea_popescu because it gives people perverse incentives. [20:00]
seongyupyoo how so? [20:00]
seongyupyoo i thought about giving it to charity also [20:00]
mircea_popescu in your model (active logins) : suppose you have 100 users. i make 9900 spam accounts and log them in daily. [20:00]
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seongyupyoo but then it gives them bad incentie [20:01]
mircea_popescu if i scam someone i get ~99% of the funds ? [20:01]
seongyupyoo yup, you're right [20:01]
seongyupyoo didn't think about that [20:01]
seongyupyoo guess i won't be doing that [20:01]
mircea_popescu yeah. [20:01]
seongyupyoo thanks! [20:01]
mircea_popescu the volume one is very bad but slightly less bad than the active logins [20:01]
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seongyupyoo volume one doesn't sound bad [20:01]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform's solution is arguably better than both [20:01]
mircea_popescu even if it is still very bad i think (because bitcoin destruction is bad imo) [20:02]
seongyupyoo yeah but really destroying money? [20:02]
mircea_popescu ikr. [20:02]
mircea_popescu still,think : in the volume approach, i can wash trade myself into the 99% position. [20:02]
seongyupyoo i could do like a pick your own charity also [20:02]
KRS-1 heh [20:02]
mircea_popescu o i got an idea : [20:03]
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seongyupyoo what? [20:03]
mircea_popescu send it to s.dice. [20:03]
mircea_popescu if you win then you have enough money to repay both [20:03]
kakobrekla ipo and release that as dividends. [20:03]
mircea_popescu if you lose, fuck them, do better next time [20:03]
mircea_popescu or that, yeah, maybe. bitbet is doing something similar for bad bets. [20:03]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: this just shifts the moral hazard to the SDICE people. [20:04]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform how ? [20:04]
seongyupyoo that's giving sdice bad incentive to do odd things on nashx [20:04]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: now if I run SDICE, I have the incentive to siphon BTC by triggering "destruciton." [20:04]
asciilifeform *destruction [20:04]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform why, for the 1.9% margin ?! [20:04]
asciilifeform yes. free money is free money. [20:04]
mircea_popescu maybe you're right. [20:05]
mircea_popescu well fuck lol [20:05]
mircea_popescu i never thought we'd have the problem of what to do with moneyz [20:05]
seongyupyoo well i think my margin would be higher than that [20:05]
seongyupyoo if the bet wins, it comes back to me right? [20:05]
mircea_popescu seongyupyoo s.dice takes 1.9% of bets is what i mean. [20:05]
seongyupyoo so i would have incentive to try to increase destruction [20:05]
mircea_popescu yes, say two people each put 1 btc in. they destrouy [20:05]
mircea_popescu you send 2 btc to sdice, get 4 or w/e [20:05]
asciilifeform Shitcoin wins, because everything is 100% voluntary. You don't even see the burned coin as burned if you don't use it. [20:06]
mircea_popescu and you use that 4 to split among them [20:06]
kakobrekla lol [20:06]
mircea_popescu (because now they both have the original results they wanted) [20:06]
seongyupyoo ahhh.... [20:06]
mircea_popescu sorta like "Saved by god" [20:07]
seongyupyoo interesting... so that would drive scammers to scam more for a chance to undo their scam for free [20:07]
mircea_popescu hm... fuck. [20:07]
mircea_popescu no wait. [20:07]
mircea_popescu that's not a problem. scammers are already 100% driven to scam 100% what they can [20:07]
mircea_popescu not like there's a scammer anywhere going "o, you know what, let's just do 50% of scamming" [20:07]
seongyupyoo maybe it could temp regular folks to take the money and run a little more? [20:08]
assbot [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 2 @ 1.1647 = 2.3294 BTC [+] [20:08]
mircea_popescu i guess that's possible tho. [20:08]
seongyupyoo it's definitely interesting idea i'll keep in mind, so far one of the best and most unique [20:08]
asciilifeform you might as well suggest that banks should play in casinos to recoup bad debts. it is nonsense to use SDICE as part of any kind of rational system (other than a chump harvester, of course.) [20:08]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform but this is the irrational part of reason : disposing of "bad". [20:08]
mircea_popescu like, putting peiople in jail. this is jailed money as it were. [20:09]
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asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it isn't disposal if you give it to a third party. [20:09]
seongyupyoo these are very interesting questions... banks playing in casinos lol [20:09]
mircea_popescu my original inspiration was purely greek. [20:09]
asciilifeform see this: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/13/us/13judge.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 [20:09]
mircea_popescu you'd have a "gods call it" tyope of thing [20:09]
mircea_popescu but i think it's fully argued, i don't see anything more for it than what;s been said. [20:09]
asciilifeform fines have to go to /dev/null to be truly fair [20:10]
mircea_popescu you're just a humourless protestant that's why you think so :D [20:10]
mircea_popescu seongyupyoo why you say people woudln't use this for 100 btc ? [20:10]
seongyupyoo is there no party who can take this money and not be incentivized to do bad? [20:10]
asciilifeform funny that, I'm an ethnic atheist. but I do see the spice and humour in "trial by combat." [20:10]
mircea_popescu seongyupyoo btc is pseudonymous, remember ? [20:10]
MJR_ i was thinking of scamming but only wanted to do 50% of my possible scamming [20:11]
seongyupyoo well, if you want to make 1 transaction of size 100, then you need to be risking about 200 btc [20:11]
seongyupyoo as opposed to [20:11]
KRS-1 someone just dropped 192 BTC on litecoins [20:11]
seongyupyoo if you're making 100 transactions of 1, then you only need to be risking 2btc [20:11]
asciilifeform seongyupyoo: /dev/null is a perfectly disinterested third party who will never do you ill. [20:11]
mircea_popescu ya, and i'll be managing 100 txs x.x [20:11]
MJR_ i like systems based on mutually assured destruction [20:12]
mircea_popescu anyway, the wrap-up for me seongyupyoo : it's certainly an interesting concept. it brings however very deep philosophical questions to the fore. impossible to know if it'll acrtually be a productive business at this point [20:12]
seongyupyoo yeah that's another thing i have to think about also [20:12]
MJR_ his inspiration was mexican standoffs in movies LOL [20:12]
mircea_popescu so something worth doing with your time if you're in a research mood. if you're in bread earner mood dunno. [20:12]
MJR_ yes, it is interesting from a theoretical standpoint [20:12]
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asciilifeform other thing is that a scheme like this has to rely on an open/verifiable crypto-contract protocol, rather than some guy's phone app [20:13]
mircea_popescu i think that's not so hard to do tho. [20:14]
mircea_popescu m/n keys etc. [20:14]
seongyupyoo well that's been brought up a lot on reddit, but issue is [20:14]
MJR_ yeah, is bitcoinity working correctly for everyone? [20:14]
mircea_popescu ;;ticker [20:14]
gribble BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 154.03650, Best ask: 155.00000, Bid-ask spread: 0.96350, Last trade: 154.03649, 24 hour volume: 122998.14095664, 24 hour low: 140.96635, 24 hour high: 162.00000, 24 hour vwap: 152.51401 [20:14]
asciilifeform seongyupyoo: what's the advantage of your scheme vs. Shitcoin, in your view? [20:14]
mircea_popescu i see it. [20:14]
seongyupyoo if you start getting in the middle of transactions between traders, it starts becoming really difficult when you try to get in the middle of the USD transactions [20:14]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform i confess not knowing wtf shitcoin is or how it works. [20:15]
seongyupyoo i don't know shitcoin [20:15]
asciilifeform Shitcoin: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=988 [20:15]
MJR_ his exchange seems to be based on a ltc to btc model...which could work if i didn't find ltc useless [20:15]
mircea_popescu seongyupyoo that is a big problem. i imagined you'd only allow people risk btc, and so your service couldn't be used for 1st time btc buyers [20:15]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17650 @ 0.00069521 = 12.2705 BTC [+] [20:16]
asciilifeform Shitcoin was my own modest proposal for MAD/Nash equilibrium reputation management/bonds [20:16]
seongyupyoo well i'm not sure what you're saying [20:16]
seongyupyoo NashX doesn't answer any transactions [20:16]
seongyupyoo just the risks [20:16]
mircea_popescu "to collectively specify the least-significant digits of the total amount" ahahaha ok mpex lives! [20:16]
mod6 (10:11) < KRS-1> someone just dropped 192 BTC on litecoins << o.O [20:16]
mod6 haha wow [20:16]
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asciilifeform I wrote that before I was told of mpex (and before I was really 100% clear on how the BTC protocol works.) [20:16]
seongyupyoo so once a deal is made between two parties, it's completely up to them to do whatever they need to do to make their deal [20:16]
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mircea_popescu One potential problem with the scheme is that innocent receivers of bonded bitcoins would suffer if the shitcoins attached to said bitcoins are invoked at a later time. The obvious countermeasure is for would-be receivers of a particular bitcoin to check (using automated means, of course) whether an unexpired Shitcoin bond is attached to these coins at the particular time they are about to receive them. [20:17]
mircea_popescu this is bad tho. you can't refuse a tx. [20:18]
asciilifeform sure you can. bitbet does all the time (send it back.) [20:18]
mircea_popescu bitcoin isn't universally compatible with this sendfback thing tho [20:18]
mircea_popescu but maybe [20:18]
seongyupyoo i have no idea what shitcoin getting attached to a bitcoin means [20:19]
asciilifeform also, since you can have infinitely-many addresses, being sent shat-on coins doesn't hurt you (you will need to come up with clean ones to post a bond, but for other purposes dirty ones will do fine) [20:19]
mircea_popescu i know it'd piss me off if i had to check all incoming mpex funds for this tho [20:19]
mod6 ^^^ [20:19]
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asciilifeform clean coins can be thought of as "eating sardines" [20:19]
mircea_popescu seongyupyoo http://www.loper-os.org/?p=988 we were discussing that [20:19]
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asciilifeform the best part is that shitcoin can't do anything whatsoever to you if you don't use it. [20:20]
asciilifeform you can simply carry on pretending it doesn't exist (of course, at present it doesn't exist at all, and isn't likely to) [20:20]
ThickAsThieves with nashx, the main problem is just deciding how to handle "destroyed" btc, is that right? [20:21]
MJR_ taint is an interesting idea [20:21]
MJR_ ThickAsThieves: he said for now he keeps them, since he doesn't see that happening [20:21]
ThickAsThieves surely itll happen [20:22]
MJR_ but he would implement a distribution system if it turned out to be a problem [20:22]
MJR_ equally pay out all participants i guess [20:22]
ThickAsThieves could there be tx fees that were somehow porportionate to the amount of destroyed btc? [20:22]
seongyupyoo shitcoin sounds like an overall bad idea... not sure what purpose it serves to have metadata on how dirty a coin is, an dwhat makes it dirty and who decides [20:22]
ThickAsThieves to create a balance without incentive to game it [20:22]
MJR_ the point of metadata is that you can ignore it... [20:23]
MJR_ if you don't want to participate in the system, it doesn't matter to you [20:23]
MJR_ so since its voluntary, all the best, have fun [20:23]
assbot [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 1.125467 BTC [-] [20:23]
seongyupyoo i see, but still out of curious what purpose does it serve? [20:23]
ThickAsThieves serves to distract us from nashx [20:24]
ThickAsThieves ;) [20:24]
MJR_ trying to make coins which are used illicitly be tracked [20:24]
seongyupyoo yes two problem i see with nashx now is destroyed coins [20:24]
MJR_ for example, pirate's coins would probably not be spendable [20:24]
MJR_ under that system [20:24]
seongyupyoo and how to handle big transactions or allow many quick small transactions [20:24]
MJR_ seongyupyoo: he doesn't actually destroy them [20:24]
ThickAsThieves can large tx initiate large, but resolve in chunks? [20:25]
MJR_ he just doesn't give them to the people actually wanting them [20:25]
thestringpuller mircea_popescu: hahaha. I'm sick of the retards. [20:25]
asciilifeform you have to destroy coins for real (that is, threaten to) to punish without creating perverse incentive for the party triggering the punishment. [20:25]
MJR_ i personally like bitcoin just the way it is, i haven't seen another system which brings anything valuable to the table in my opinino [20:26]
mod6 i hate the idea of coin 'taint' [20:26]
ThickAsThieves what if you donate the destroyed coins as TX fees into blockchain [20:26]
MJR_ asciilifeform: "destroy" "me not get" same difference [20:26]
MJR_ his plan was to give it to market participants [20:26]
seongyupyoo yes, that would still mean they each have to make many transactions [20:26]
MJR_ dividend of sorts [20:26]
mircea_popescu what if you donate the destroyed coins as TX fees into blockchain << this may work [20:26]
seongyupyoo because transactions are done by the traders themselves, not by nashx [20:27]
mircea_popescu it will be difficulty to argue that miners are extra incentivised thus [20:27]
MJR_ ok...and whichever coins you want to lose, you can just lose? [20:27]
ThickAsThieves :) [20:27]
seongyupyoo that would work [20:27]
seongyupyoo kind of still similar to putting it in blackhole [20:27]
ThickAsThieves except it gets redist at least [20:28]
seongyupyoo yup [20:28]
seongyupyoo so it is better [20:28]
MJR_ it gets redist right now... [20:28]
kakobrekla basically you are giving them to pool ops [20:28]
kakobrekla most ops take those fees in the pocket [20:28]
seongyupyoo i think that may be the answer [20:28]
MJR_ ^^ true [20:28]
seongyupyoo hmm.. [20:28]
ThickAsThieves kako that is a pool problem [20:28]
ThickAsThieves not a nashx problem [20:28]
MJR_ i think the major problem with all these decentralized exchange ideas is that they have no concept of fiat money, and do nothing to solve that problem [20:28]
seongyupyoo still pool ops are incentivized to destroy [20:29]
ThickAsThieves yes, but [20:29]
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kakobrekla ThickAsThieves its nashxes since it cant be used as solution [20:29]
MJR_ that is why its best to distribute to people who are using nashX [20:29]
ThickAsThieves if there is great incentive for tx fees [20:29]
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ThickAsThieves then a pool that shares them will win [20:29]
seongyupyoo what do you mean no concept of fiat money? [20:29]
MJR_ how do i do a p2p transfer of $155? [20:29]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 11 @ 0.4551 = 5.0061 BTC [-] [20:30]
MJR_ i want to trade! i will roll up the bills and push them through ethernet? [20:30]
ThickAsThieves i didnt even know most pools dont share tx fees, is that true?! [20:30]
seongyupyoo how to distribute among nashx traders is another issue,,, like it was brought up before people can make fake accounts and many face transactions [20:30]
kakobrekla no im just making shit up as i go [20:30]
MJR_ lol kakobrekla [20:30]
seongyupyoo that sounds about right that pool ops wouldn't share [20:30]
ThickAsThieves surely there are pools that do [20:31]
MJR_ you can look up a spreadsheet that tells you each pool's rules...also, who cares [20:31]
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ThickAsThieves also, the coins dist by donated tx fees could easily be spread out thin [20:31]
ThickAsThieves and over time [20:31]
kakobrekla that solves the problem! not. [20:31]
ThickAsThieves even if pool ops gain, they have no way to game it [20:32]
ThickAsThieves are there not pools that share collected tx fees? [20:32]
MJR_ the entire idea is only interesting as a theoretical philosophical exercise [20:32]
seongyupyoo so what is this chat room [20:32]
ThickAsThieves i dunno, i'm all for a distributed exchange [20:32]
seongyupyoo how many people here actively? [20:32]
ThickAsThieves maybe 15-25 are active [20:33]
kakobrekla philosophical masturbation seongyupyoo sometimes even physical [20:33]
seongyupyoo yeah i'd like to see a distributed exchange also [20:33]
mircea_popescu http://polimedia.us/trilema/2013/regarding-money/ < if anyone feels like a read [20:33]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 1 @ 0.455 BTC [-] [20:34]
seongyupyoo anyways, i enjoyed chatting with you guys [20:34]
seongyupyoo i will come back if i ever have any questions [20:35]
mircea_popescu seongyupyoo don't listen to kakobrekla and trolls [20:35]
mircea_popescu this is the place for bitcoin biz. [20:35]
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seongyupyoo lol [20:35]
seongyupyoo does red mean private message? [20:35]
mircea_popescu no, you were highlighted [20:36]
seongyupyoo anyways take care [20:36]
mircea_popescu if someone says your name. [20:36]
seongyupyoo oh i see [20:36]
MJR_ great article...think the same thing as far as its all about the value [20:36]
MJR_ not the money [20:36]
MJR_ total money = total value [20:36]
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mircea_popescu but why should these be distinct ? [20:36]
MJR_ anyways, lunch time, cya later [20:36]
MJR_ mircea_popescu: they are one and the same [20:36]
mircea_popescu im going to cook! so... later. [20:36]
MJR_ currency is shifting, "money" is 100% of value...semantics i suppose [20:37]
MJR_ but yeah, how much of the value of the world do you have under your control = making it rain on bitches or not [20:37]
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assbot [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 17 @ 0.4055 = 6.8935 BTC [-] [20:43]
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tk993 War starting to rage over bitcoin price. [20:47]
mod6 starting? [20:47]
tk993 toche. [20:48]
tk993 Perhaps I meant a little battle. [20:48]
mod6 mircea_popescu: i saw that 'dawn' deleted all those tweets. glad you followed it up with this: http://polimedia.us/trilema/2013/fire-in-alabama-lets-make-the-most-of-it/ [20:49]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [HIM] 1 @ 1.7999 BTC [-] [20:50]
mod6 jeeze people over here are just a bunch of fake-it-till-you-make-it phonies [20:52]
jborkl https://twitter.com/BFL_News [20:52]
jborkl BFL sends a demo unit to Wired [20:52]
mod6 well, at least these people in the MSM certainly all seem to be [20:52]
topace so, question - my webserver ie behind cloudflare, but it sends emails, the receiving SMTP server adds a "received from:" header to the message, revealign the IP of my server.. [20:52]
jborkl assholes [20:52]
topace whats the solution to this? dont send emails? lol. [20:53]
ThickAsThieves dont send emails from your server? [20:53]
Scrat topace: I can still find your ip [20:54]
topace scrat yea probably [20:54]
ThickAsThieves dmca request? [20:54]
Scrat (not with a fake dmca) [20:54]
ThickAsThieves hrm [20:54]
topace Scrat: pelase let me know my IP, im changing it soon as i get the email thing figured out www.havelockinvestments.com [20:55]
Scrat you can query all 4 billion IPs on port 80 within a day [20:56]
Scrat one of them will present a http 200 for the host header havelockinvestments.com [20:56]
topace ahh [20:56]
topace i guess thats one way [20:56]
topace heh [20:56]
assbot [BTCTC] [CRYPTO-TRADE] 1 @ 0.1998 BTC [-] [20:57]
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mircea_popescu mod6 was funny lol. she beleeeted it!!1 [21:00]
Scrat akamai can setup a custom X-Header so you know it's them, you check for it and show vhost not found if it's not them [21:01]
mod6 haha! i'm getting so sick of these clowns [21:01]
Scrat no idea if cloudflare does that [21:01]
ThickAsThieves heh, check ou this spike http://bitcoin.clarkmoody.com/ [21:03]
mircea_popescu BFL sends a demo unit to Wired did wired say anything yet ? [21:03]
mircea_popescu topace ouch. that';s no good. [21:04]
ThickAsThieves wired tweeted the delivery [21:04]
Scrat ThickAsThieves: sponsored by jesus himself [21:04]
mircea_popescu Scrat try this on mpex ? [21:04]
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ThickAsThieves i should have clarified to look at the M1 chart to see the spike [21:06]
Scrat mircea_popescu: are you implying that it doesn't work? it can be avoided however if reverse proxies have set IPs and your webservers whitelist said IPs [21:06]
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mircea_popescu im just curious. [21:06]
Scrat no anti-ddos service has set IPs, they juggle them around, nullroute them ,etc [21:06]
Scrat takes a few ec2 machines to do it in a few hours, at a minimal cost [21:06]
topace actually, simply setting Allow from IP's in apache should fix that problem scrat [21:07]
topace so apache wont reply to any host thats not cloudflare [21:07]
mircea_popescu i'll save you the 4bn lookups : mpex.co. 474 IN A 174.127.72.233 [21:07]
topace could even firewall out all other IP's [21:07]
Scrat topace: here's the problem, they don't have set IPs [21:07]
topace yes they do [21:07]
topace https://www.cloudflare.com/ips [21:07]
Scrat they change netblocks [21:07]
Scrat how often does that list change [21:08]
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topace very little from what i can tell [21:08]
topace im sure they add/remove occasionally [21:08]
ll the ips are in your spf record [21:09]
topace ll: only if you put them there [21:09]
topace ill obviously be removing them when i switch IP's [21:09]
topace and leaving it as just the mail server im sending out from [21:09]
topace but i still need a way for tha tmail server not to add a "Received from:" header [21:10]
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Scrat topace: would be a good idea then (to whitelist these blocks) [21:10]
ll can get it from your dns servers too [21:11]
topace ll: nope, dns is cloudflare [21:12]
ll no, your dns server [21:12]
ll dig havelockinvestments.com @ns1.lightbox.org [21:12]
topace heh, forgot to deconfigure that [21:14]
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topace its gone now, try again [21:14]
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ll yep [21:14]
assbot [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 1.125038 BTC [-] [21:14]
assbot [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 2 @ 1.125037 = 2.2501 BTC [-] [21:15]
assbot [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 1.125036 BTC [-] [21:15]
assbot [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 1.12501 BTC [-] [21:15]
assbot [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 8 @ 1.125 = 9 BTC [-] [21:15]
assbot [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 1.123011 BTC [-] [21:15]
topace so i can deal with a bruteforce scan of the entire ip4 range on port 80, by whitelisting/firewalling the cloudflare IP's [21:15]
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topace but i still dont know what to do with the damn "received from" header [21:16]
topace i guess insert emails to send into a database, and have another server pull them out and send the mail from there [21:16]
Scrat what do you use to send emails [21:16]
Scrat is the smtp server yours? [21:17]
topace yes, i would send through my business mail server (mail.lightbox.org) [21:17]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4100 @ 0.00069521 = 2.8504 BTC [+] [21:17]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21050 @ 0.0006973 = 14.6782 BTC [+] [21:18]
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Scrat managed email delivery isn't such a bad idea [21:18]
Scrat sendgrid, postmark, whatever [21:18]
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Scrat also, prettu sure most SMTPd's can remove the from IP [21:20]
Scrat i know postfix can [21:20]
topace hmmm i use postfix [21:21]
mircea_popescu even better, point it to wh [21:22]
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topace wh? [21:23]
Scrat even better, have a stunnel on the smtp machine that points to it [21:23]
Scrat encrypted sending :) [21:23]
Scrat (useless but meh) [21:23]
MJR_ stunnel nice [21:23]
mircea_popescu lol [21:24]
MJR_ i like pgp plus stunnel... [21:24]
MJR_ pgp is more important, but i think stunnel is good protection from ddos [21:24]
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thestringpuller mircea_popescu I just realized you can use options as real insurance [21:36]
thestringpuller slowpoke meme [21:37]
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assbot [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 1.12201 BTC [-] [21:46]
assbot [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 1.122 BTC [-] [21:46]
assbot [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 1.1151 BTC [-] [21:46]
assbot [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 1.11 BTC [-] [21:46]
assbot [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 5 @ 1.11 = 5.55 BTC [-] [21:46]
assbot [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 5 @ 1.106 = 5.53 BTC [-] [21:46]
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MJR_ whats up with the OIX? [21:52]
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mod6 no options bought or sold [21:52]
mod6 and today is options expiration [21:52]
mod6 err tomorrow. [21:52]
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mod6 my guess is that the OIX return to its normal state of tracking pricing via options once the book rolls over for next month. every since the correction on the 10th it's been pretty minimal for options. [21:54]
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mod6 i dunno. *shrug* [21:56]
mod6 $vwap ^OIX [21:57]
mpexbot mod6: ^OIX 1 day: no data 7 day: no data 30 day: no data [21:57]
ThickAsThieves gribble always amazes me [22:01]
ThickAsThieves [15:00] <+Rav3n> ;;8ball am i screwed? [22:01]
ThickAsThieves [15:00] The outlook is poor. [22:01]
ThickAsThieves [15:01] <+Rav3n> ;;8ball does that mean I'm gonna lose big time? [22:01]
ThickAsThieves [15:01] It is so. [22:01]
ThickAsThieves [15:01] <+Rav3n> fuck [22:01]
ThickAsThieves ;;nethash [22:03]
gribble 73122.7340805 [22:03]
jurov reading it all up... i thing i got a plan to boycott mpex. [22:05]
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jurov CoinBr is boycotting racist exchange!!! [22:06]
jurov (*)Balances will not be refunded. [22:06]
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jurov i like that plan, what do you say? [22:06]
mod6 heheh. i just smh at stuff I read on btctalk [22:08]
mod6 most of it anyway [22:09]
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mircea_popescu mod6 quite likely. [22:10]
mircea_popescu also pls don't boycott mpex [22:11]
* hungryhippo boycotts all the things. [22:11]
mircea_popescu every time you boycott mpex I whip a kitten. [22:12]
mod6 haha [22:12]
* hungryhippo sits on kittens [22:12]
mircea_popescu mine are freshly shaved [22:13]
mircea_popescu http://reason.com/archives/2005/08/01/who-killed-paypal/print [22:14]
mircea_popescu this is a good lol. [22:14]
jimbo2k is there a way to short bitcoins? [22:16]
mircea_popescu while one Silicon Valley lawyer wrote in the California legal publication The Recorder that PayPal was an ideal money laundering mechanism for "drug dealers and domestic terrorists," [22:16]
mircea_popescu jimbo2k you can buy puts/sell calls short on mpex. [22:16]
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jurov seongyupyoo, what about sending the btc to *minable* blackhole and publish the challenge? [22:30]
jurov oh hes away [22:31]
jurov interesting stuff happens when i;m not around, as always [22:31]
kakobrekla go away [22:31]
kakobrekla joke [22:31]
kakobrekla (jurov) [22:31]
kakobrekla fyi that is a hug. [22:32]
ThickAsThieves mp I am interested to know what you think about Gov Rick Scott, FL, wanting welfare recipients to take and pass drug tests to qualify [22:32]
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assbot [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 1.178799 BTC [+] [22:43]
MJR_ ThickAsThieves: YES, i am curious too [22:45]
kakobrekla ;;goxlag [22:45]
gribble MtGox lag is 0.517559 seconds. During this time, light travels 0.00103718244112 AU. You could have sent a bitcoin to the other side of the Earth, along the surface (0.0001339 AU). [22:45]
MJR_ but, if i had to guess, why are we giving them anything drug test or not...do drugs all you want and support yourself... [22:45]
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MJR_ however, i think that they should do this to any ceo or board member of a company that needs a bailout [22:46]
MJR_ since they will also be accepting public assistance, we want to make sure they won't spend it on drugs! [22:46]
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ThickAsThieves i cant pinpoint why i dont like perfectly [22:46]
ThickAsThieves it just seems like mixing issues to me [22:47]
MJR_ jurov: that is a great idea...i like the idea of remining coins [22:47]
MJR_ ThickAsThieves: i think its abhorrent, but most people would say that the issue is not drugs but rather welfare...that is where the issues mix, what does drugs have to do with welfare? (you could argue that one leads to the other, but i think that is a simplistic, facile argument) [22:47]
ThickAsThieves and where do you draw the line? [22:49]
ThickAsThieves if they gain 40lbs do they lose welfare? [22:49]
jurov as soon as you want to assess welfare recipient eligibility, you sow the seeds of potentially unbounded bureaucracy [22:49]
jurov so let's have equal minimal income, or no welfare at all [22:49]
ThickAsThieves if they get a parking ticket do they lose welfare? [22:50]
ThickAsThieves its too much like parenting or something [22:50]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9157 @ 0.00069843 = 6.3955 BTC [+] [22:53]
joecool jurov: that's about the best way to look at it, the muddy middleground always ends up bad [22:53]
jurov topace, amazon offers SES service for email where any received from: headers are all unroutable private IPs [22:56]
jurov i plan to use it [22:56]
* hungryhippo is now known as jcpham [22:58]
jurov and the port 80 problem can be solver by using another port and telling cloudflare to use it [22:59]
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jurov increases portscan complexity 65000x [23:00]
asciilifeform The proposal to test welfare recipients for drugs reminds me of: [23:00]
jurov omg, i was only admin for 7 years in a little company [23:00]
asciilifeform " It is a curious fact that in America public assistance is only made available to the miserable and the downtrodden, not to those who are in need of some free money but are otherwise perfectly content. Although it is just as possible to be poor and happy in America as anywhere else, here one must make a choice: to avoid any number of unpleasant situations, one must be careful to hide either the fact that one is [23:01]
asciilifeform poor, or the fact that one is happy." [23:01]
asciilifeform (http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2010/08/miserable-pursuits.html) [23:01]
jurov don't tell me nobody other can think about such things???? [23:01]
jurov perhaps everyone aho should be thinking about practical security is jerking off about taxes and welfare??? [23:03]
topace http://www.businessinsider.com/canadian-banks-closing-bitcoin-businesses-2013-4 [23:03]
jurov like yesterday. i had nice talk about how to be safe in bitcoinland and about all the heists [23:03]
kakobrekla !sell vtx -all [23:04]
jurov but had to wait for libertard who expounded for hour and a half [23:04]
mircea_popescu ThickAsThieves well... i don't have an opinion. [23:04]
jurov and drove half of audience away [23:04]
jurov /rant [23:04]
mircea_popescu jurov was this your conference thing you were going to ? [23:04]
jurov it was this: https://www.progressbar.sk/calendar/bitcoinove-trhy bitcoin markets for newbs [23:05]
mircea_popescu aha [23:06]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform dunno about that theory rly. burning man is all about showing off how poor and happy you are [23:07]
mircea_popescu chicks apparently dig it. [23:07]
ThickAsThieves you dont have an opinion? [23:08]
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ThickAsThieves really? [23:08]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: burning man is full of "marie antoinette poor", not actual poor. [23:08]
mircea_popescu nevertheless. [23:08]
mircea_popescu ThickAsThieves well yes. [23:09]
ThickAsThieves how about a anthropological or philosophical perspective then [23:09]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the difference matters. [23:09]
mircea_popescu it's catch-22. allowing idiots to use drugs is certainly going to lead to this business-enforced drug policy. because it's cheaper to pay crackheads and who the fuck cares they die in five years, all the better. [23:09]
mircea_popescu disalowing it is too much like parenting. [23:09]
ThickAsThieves i also find it to be in contrast to the current republican agenda [23:10]
ThickAsThieves gov is telling people how to live [23:10]
ThickAsThieves i guess they hate gays too... [23:10]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: nobody would bother testing the poor for drugs if they didn't need to work. [23:10]
mircea_popescu here's the thing : there's always going to be a class of people who need to be told how to live. [23:10]
mircea_popescu be it roman empire slaves or contemporary us social media crowds, [23:10]
mircea_popescu it's a fact. [23:10]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: Aristotle's natural slaves? [23:11]
ThickAsThieves is that a need or a preference? [23:11]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform they only test them at the workplace cause that's the food dispenser. [23:11]
mircea_popescu ThickAsThieves it's simple inability. [23:11]
mircea_popescu motherfucker. got a new camera, has EVEN SMALLER USB [23:11]
asciilifeform (re: slaves: http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2013/03/sam-altman-is-not-blithering-idiot.html) [23:11]
mircea_popescu aha! at least they include cable. way to go sony. [23:12]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform hmm... i think i wrote an article about altman recently [23:12]
ThickAsThieves now we're gonna get even more MP self-shots [23:12]
mircea_popescu what, is the modlbug reading me ?! [23:12]
asciilifeform drug testing is a multibillion-dollar business in the U.S.; arguably it is the employers who are the chumps here (they are bamboozled into thinking that it matters whether the fry cook smokes dope.) [23:13]
ThickAsThieves can we get a picture of you taking a picture of you taking a picture of yourself? [23:13]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform the us employers are forced into being a sort of government subsidiary. [23:13]
mircea_popescu they implement govt policy, handle the herd, get some trimmings. [23:13]
ThickAsThieves god forbid they put the money into improving education [23:14]
asciilifeform AFAIK testing mcdonalds cooks isn't mandatory (vs. truck drivers etc) [23:14]
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asciilifeform mircea_popescu: altman is an infamous social butterfly / master investor milker. most of his success is from being chums with paul graham. [23:16]
mircea_popescu aka the freakshow. [23:17]
mircea_popescu ThickAsThieves education can not be improved with money. [23:17]
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mircea_popescu the only way to do it is if you take the urban poor, beat them and starve them. [23:17]
mircea_popescu that doesn't take money, that takes the will to do so. [23:17]
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jurov mircea_popescu does any research at least marginally confirm this? [23:18]
mircea_popescu yes, my own. [23:19]
mircea_popescu afaik nobody has done research on beating people. [23:19]
ThickAsThieves i am skeptical the money cannot be used to improve american education [23:19]
jurov no, but they did on literacy/math skills [23:19]
ThickAsThieves there are many ways to throw money at education the dont work [23:19]
ThickAsThieves that doesnt mean it cant be done [23:19]
jurov and it isn't so much about money. but not about beating, either. [23:19]
mircea_popescu listen, it's very simple. kid today as 5000 years ago has to answer a simple question : why the fuck am i learning all this ? [23:19]
mircea_popescu "because if you don't i'll fucking beat you to death" is an excellent answer. [23:20]
mircea_popescu find another. [23:20]
ThickAsThieves so the money goes to determining better ways and things to educate [23:20]
asciilifeform the urban poor are a tremendous profit making engine for various industries (e.g. pharma: http://partialobjects.com/2011/06/staggering-thought-of-the-day/) into which oceans of money are funneled through them. [23:20]
ThickAsThieves when i was in school i was smart enough to know i was not being taught the way that suited me [23:20]
ThickAsThieves the way we teach is not optimal at all [23:20]
mircea_popescu that's the point of teaching [23:21]
mircea_popescu to change you. [23:21]
ThickAsThieves some teachers reached me [23:21]
ThickAsThieves others annoyed me [23:21]
mircea_popescu until you're optimal for it. not the other fucking way around. [23:21]
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ThickAsThieves also, we already require too much parenting by teachers [23:22]
ThickAsThieves now you wanna beat the kids [23:22]
jurov there certainly is research about punishment to performance. on better statistical sample than mircea's [23:22]
asciilifeform any system of organizing society (education, work, whatever) that doesn't include a hard mechanism for separating actual people from meat puppets is doomed. [23:22]
ThickAsThieves its not hard to prove that beating someone gets them to do what you want... [23:22]
ThickAsThieves stats not needed [23:22]
mircea_popescu jurov punishment only works if the punished literally perceives there is no alternative and his life is forfeit. [23:23]
ThickAsThieves you cant jump to extremes [23:23]
mircea_popescu otherwise it's dicking about. [23:23]
jurov where we left the saying you can't make horse drink ? [23:23]
mircea_popescu o but you can. [23:23]
ThickAsThieves to say somehting is not absolutely solvable, therefore why imrove it [23:23]
ThickAsThieves imprive* [23:23]
mircea_popescu there's a lot of power in the conservation instinct. [23:23]
ThickAsThieves improve* [23:23]
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mircea_popescu ThickAsThieves well... you can't improve it the way you broke it i think. [23:24]
ThickAsThieves and you cant solve it by resorting to the lowest common denominator either [23:24]
asciilifeform you can make the horse drink. but sometimes the horse is Munchausen's horse: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/forgottenfutures/munch/cruik4.gif [23:24]
ThickAsThieves not solve // improve [23:24]
mircea_popescu the problem kids face, especially while small, is that they have no clue. that's why they're in school, to figure shit out. [23:25]
mircea_popescu you can't expect them to self-motivate. if they had enough of a clue as to what's what they wouldn't need school. [23:25]
ThickAsThieves yes, and we can do a better job helping them to do so [23:25]
jurov punishment works if kids know what they are punished for [23:25]
mircea_popescu there's nothing to help. all you can do is "learn this!" as an absolute imperative. [23:25]
jurov but who'll bother explaining to them? [23:26]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: they're in school to figure out hierarchy/obedience. [23:26]
ThickAsThieves we cant make an increasingly complex society without taking responsibility for ushering people into it [23:26]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform these two are not distinct. [23:26]
ThickAsThieves well, we shouldnt [23:26]
kakobrekla ;;ticker --last [23:26]
gribble 133.01000 [23:26]
ThickAsThieves 133, heh [23:26]
mircea_popescu as it should be. [23:26]
ThickAsThieves admittedly i'm a bit more of an idealist, evolutionist [23:27]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 5 @ 0.2975 = 1.4875 BTC [+] [23:28]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 1 @ 0.29769999 BTC [+] [23:28]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 1 @ 0.29789999 BTC [+] [23:28]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 4 @ 0.29809999 = 1.1924 BTC [+] [23:28]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 3 @ 0.29829997 = 0.8949 BTC [+] [23:28]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 2 @ 0.29849997 = 0.597 BTC [+] [23:28]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 1 @ 0.29969999 BTC [+] [23:28]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 1 @ 0.29989 BTC [+] [23:28]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 2 @ 0.2999 = 0.5998 BTC [+] [23:28]
mircea_popescu but explain this to me. kid's nine. he should be learning multiplication table. how does that get done ? [23:28]
ThickAsThieves i do think we can steer our path [23:28]
mircea_popescu he has no way to know why it's useful. [23:28]
mircea_popescu what now ? [23:28]
ThickAsThieves good example [23:28]
ThickAsThieves use a more applied way of schooling [23:28]
ThickAsThieves that was my problem [23:28]
mircea_popescu age honored way is to go "either you learn this or i mash you into a pulp" [23:28]
ThickAsThieves i learn by doing [23:28]
ThickAsThieves not by being told [23:28]
mircea_popescu this has had kids know multiplication for ~2500 years. [23:28]
Uglux huuuge dump [23:29]
mircea_popescu the recent method of i dunno wtf it is... has kids... not able to multiply. [23:29]
ThickAsThieves i remember i had this huge mental block learning geometry [23:29]
MJR_ yeah, that makes sense...kids (and many other people in society) won't understand why things are necesssary....that's why you say because i told you so [23:29]
ThickAsThieves yet i got a job that involved it and took to it quickly [23:29]
mircea_popescu MJR_ for that matter, people keep going "o, i dunno what good a philosophy degree would be IRL" [23:30]
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jurov parents heavily involved... and i knew it is useful [23:30]
mircea_popescu and i usually go "ya douchy, i own you in any way and you dunno what my degree is for. wd." [23:30]
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asciilifeform the kid is taught the times table to see if he is trainable. as witnessed by the fact that the times table continued to be taught, even in times and places where the people running the show don't give a damn whether anyone actually knows their times table. [23:30]
jurov if they just threatened to pulp me if i don't learn... then i;m not sure i'd really learn [23:30]
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mircea_popescu jurov not as a theory. [23:30]
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jurov some other things i knew i did not need, i did not learn [23:31]
mircea_popescu in practice. you get as many lashes as you can take. [23:31]
jurov no matter whet. and just got bad grades [23:31]
Scrat ;;goxlag [23:31]
gribble MtGox lag is 50.300903 seconds. During this time, light travels 0.100802446415 AU. You could have sent a bitcoin ten times between Saturn and Titan (0.0802 AU). [23:31]
mircea_popescu not bad grades dood. [23:31]
mircea_popescu pain until you faint [23:31]
ThickAsThieves lol [23:31]
mircea_popescu cold water, rehash. [23:31]
mircea_popescu at some point you either beg to be allowed to learn it [23:31]
mircea_popescu or just die. [23:31]
MJR_ eh, you learn if you want to learn [23:31]
mircea_popescu either way, we pre-dig the graves. [23:31]
MJR_ grim [23:32]
mircea_popescu indeed. [23:32]
asciilifeform times table and lashes plus a real person = educated, functional; times table and lashes plus a meat pupper: expert at dodging punishment. [23:32]
ThickAsThieves mp your approach is simply too primitive for me [23:32]
asciilifeform *puppet [23:32]
ThickAsThieves i can rationalize it n all [23:32]
mircea_popescu there's this VERY grim undercurrent in education people never wish to face. [23:32]
ThickAsThieves but cmon [23:32]
mircea_popescu education in fact has death in it. [23:32]
jurov then i'll be unlearning obedience not 15 years, but 30 if ever [23:32]
ThickAsThieves life has death in it [23:32]
mircea_popescu ThickAsThieves yeah. [23:32]
mircea_popescu jurov shockingly obedience is very easy to unlearn if you're trained properly [23:33]
mircea_popescu (ie, no excuses are ever made) [23:33]
asciilifeform "with an ugh and a groan and a click of the heels, death comes quiet or it comes with squeals..." [23:33]
ThickAsThieves everything we do could be called a big distraction from self-awareness of our own mortality [23:33]
jurov mircea_popescu: do tell, and how many of teachers/parents can actually do it properly? [23:34]
mircea_popescu virtually none. [23:34]
mircea_popescu i don't propose this as a practical solution, mind. [23:34]
MJR_ i learn without threat [23:34]
jurov you don't seem to have any other solution [23:34]
MJR_ i learn for incentives [23:34]
MJR_ and i would say i learn more and faster [23:34]
ThickAsThieves i enoy learning on my own terms [23:34]
mircea_popescu jurov im just saying, this is the way things'd work absolutely. that it's not implementable... not my problem :D [23:34]
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jurov fkn hipster... not his prob [23:35]
mircea_popescu ehehehe [23:35]
MJR_ well, take 3 steps back...is learning necessary? not always [23:35]
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mircea_popescu it's never necessary. it's always useful. [23:35]
MJR_ if it is necessary, there are two paths [23:35]
ThickAsThieves yes but you maintain that money cannot be used to improve the overall education level of the US, no? [23:35]
MJR_ one is disincentive for not learning...punishment [23:35]
mircea_popescu but in poihnt of fact you can always survive w/o knowing shit. [23:35]
MJR_ the other is incentive for learning, reward [23:35]
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mircea_popescu ThickAsThieves my idea was that the reason us edsucation is fucked atm is exactly the misuse of money. [23:36]
mircea_popescu adding more won't credibly help. [23:36]
MJR_ ^i'd agree [23:36]
MJR_ its cultural...and hopefully changing for the better [23:36]
mircea_popescu heh. notrly. [23:36]
MJR_ when people say that asians are good at math...its cuz their parents make them good at math [23:36]
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MJR_ they do not have the choice to NOT be good at math [23:36]
mircea_popescu kids learn from whoever they respect. in the 1850s that was the teacher. [23:36]
mircea_popescu by now it's some gang leader guy, with the charisma and the requisite qualities. [23:36]
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mircea_popescu MJR_ azns get the stick. a lot. [23:37]
ThickAsThieves thats two diff problems [23:37]
ThickAsThieves how we spend money and what to spend it on [23:37]
mircea_popescu ThickAsThieves the unions have a great idea on the subject. [23:37]
ThickAsThieves yes we waste shit tons of cash [23:37]
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ThickAsThieves our priorities are all fucked up [23:38]
mircea_popescu notice that you pose false questions. the us govt has absolutely no choice on who and what to spend. [23:38]
ThickAsThieves the people within it have power to steer the cash [23:38]
mircea_popescu it's a "rational agent", ie, like water : can be dammed, can be piped... [23:38]
MJR_ yes [23:38]
mircea_popescu will sit patiently in a glass waiting [23:38]
MJR_ but my point is, if you "say" you value education but don't, you won't get education [23:38]
MJR_ if you actually value education, you will get education [23:39]
MJR_ if your children are in school on saturdays for 8 hours...you value education [23:39]
mircea_popescu ya but the problem is there's no way to value education w/o the markings on your ass. [23:39]
MJR_ yes i agree [23:39]
MJR_ even if just metaphorically [23:39]
mircea_popescu even if. [23:39]
ThickAsThieves i didnt need to get beat to value learning [23:39]
punkman saturday school? fuck that [23:39]
MJR_ hehehe, yep [23:39]
mircea_popescu problem is, cultures which have this ethos don't need the pathos [23:39]
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MJR_ exactly [23:39]
mircea_popescu but americans are disused. they will need to re-learn the hard way [23:39]
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MJR_ exactly [23:40]
mircea_popescu so their grandkids might not need actual whippings [23:40]
MJR_ that is the point [23:40]
MJR_ you want education, you have to value education [23:40]
mircea_popescu ThickAsThieves well i thouight we're discussing statistics. [23:40]
MJR_ but when parents basically have the attitude of 'not my problem' or "just play along till you get out of school" [23:40]
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MJR_ that is not valuing education [23:40]
mircea_popescu indeed. [23:40]
MJR_ that is paying lip service to education [23:40]
MJR_ wanting the benefits without the actual work [23:41]
MJR_ nowadays you go to school so you can say you went to school [23:41]
ThickAsThieves i'm not discussing stats, nor last resorts [23:41]
MJR_ quite tautological [23:41]
MJR_ i am educated because i got education [23:41]
mircea_popescu very weak society, one that wants the benefit but doesn't enjoy the labour. [23:41]
ThickAsThieves i'm saying we need to at least figure out how to figure out improving education [23:41]
MJR_ point is, you have to learn because you want to know [23:41]
MJR_ and you want to DO [23:41]
MJR_ not because you want others to give you credit for having attended a school and paying tuition [23:42]
ThickAsThieves as a species we are capable of absolutely anything, it's just a matter of when we decide to do so [23:42]
MJR_ its the biggest example of the free rider problem ever [23:42]
MJR_ think of it this way, if schools produce education, i can go to one, and rely on the fact that i will be assumed to be educated [23:43]
MJR_ without actually learning [23:43]
MJR_ so if you take focus away from what school you went to etc, and on WHAT YOU ACTUALLY KNOW [23:43]
punkman well assumptions don't last long when you actually have to go to work [23:43]
MJR_ that is a good first step [23:43]
asciilifeform "education" is a seriously abused word in application to the schooling of the masses. The root 'educe' being == 'to bring out.' There isn't usually much to bring out. [23:43]
mircea_popescu MJR_ then you're a gypsy racist [23:43]
MJR_ eh, incompetence is everywhere [23:43]
asciilifeform "The world's best magician cannot pull a rabbit out of a hat unless he is already in the hat." [23:44]
MJR_ i agreer [23:44]
MJR_ totally [23:44]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform at the risk of sounding insufficiently misanthropic, i beg to differ. [23:44]
mircea_popescu you'd be amazed what an excellent cocksucker sleeps in any random chick. [23:44]
asciilifeform time to call it what it is: obedience training. like the dog kind. [23:44]
MJR_ point is, i want the person at mcdonalds to know the difference between "only lettuce, tomato and ketchup" and "no mustard, onions or pickles" [23:44]
MJR_ they don't have to be geniuses [23:44]
MJR_ but they should not be complete retards [23:45]
MJR_ because that negatively impacts MY quality of life [23:45]
asciilifeform MJR_ the solution is pictograms. or ditch the clerk and install robots. [23:45]
mircea_popescu i don't think you can safely identify someone that way. [23:45]
MJR_ this is the non altruistic argument for why education is important for all [23:45]
mircea_popescu my cto used to drive a truck for instance. [23:45]
MJR_ i usually find that i learn the MOST when i have to solve a problem...no problems, no learning [23:46]
asciilifeform well yes, and at one point I ran cables. there needs to be an escape hatch, and the process is rather inefficient right now [23:46]
MJR_ i figured out how to use *nix systems because i didn't have a computer and wanted my iphone to do everything a computer could do [23:46]
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MJR_ so i figured out symbolic links (this was before iOS 1.1) and i figured out filesystems, etc [23:47]
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MJR_ i figured out package management...and all the other things, to get what i wanted [23:47]
MJR_ just a small example [23:47]
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mircea_popescu sounds like a beating. [23:47]
MJR_ i suppose...but now i welcome challenges [23:47]
MJR_ i only feel happy when i am overcoming something [23:48]
MJR_ figuring out something [23:48]
kakobrekla ;;goxlag [23:48]
gribble MtGox lag is 118.574281 seconds. During this time, light travels 0.2376215315 AU. You could have sent a bitcoin between Earth and Venus at their closest approach (0.254 AU). [23:48]
jurov typical #assets .. everyone talking about themselves and their beliefs, just mircea about sex [23:48]
kakobrekla look, they fixed it [23:48]
MJR_ HAHAHA [23:48]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: don't know about you, but I would prefer a system that is up-front about the goal of separating people from meatpuppets, rather than pretending to do a million other inconsequential things [23:48]
MJR_ ^^agree [23:48]
mircea_popescu fu ju rov :D [23:48]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform i don't believe that separation is a matter of fact. [23:49]
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mircea_popescu i've never met actual meat puppets. [23:49]
MJR_ lol [23:49]
kakobrekla jurov my belifs are that is not the case! urlpls mircea [23:49]
mircea_popescu http://polimedia.us/dtng/c/src/136667640924.gif [23:49]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the "people who must be told how to live" [23:49]
mircea_popescu make it last im running out. [23:49]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform this includes most researchers you know ?! [23:49]
mircea_popescu fuck, rms needs to be told to take a bath. [23:49]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 3 @ 0.4892 = 1.4676 BTC [+] [23:50]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: most researchers are meat puppets (with good calculating and recall ability) [23:50]
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mircea_popescu ya well you sound en route to the party of one [23:50]
Scrat can't, the bath is proprietary [23:50]
mircea_popescu ahahaha [23:50]
jurov lol [23:50]
mircea_popescu scrat wins interwebs [23:50]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 1 @ 0.4251 BTC [-] [23:51]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 6 @ 0.42500001 = 2.55 BTC [-] [23:51]
MJR_ hehehe [23:51]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 7 @ 0.425 = 2.975 BTC [-] [23:51]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: I'm more of a "reich der zwei" sort of guy [23:51]
mircea_popescu even so. [23:51]
MJR_ anyway, people either avoid challenges or welcome them, that is a great heuristic for separating out those who will learn and those who will do what they are told [23:51]
mircea_popescu i avoid most challenges. what nao ?! [23:51]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 7 @ 0.425 = 2.975 BTC [-] [23:52]
jurov yeq. i went into bitcoin in hope to avoid some challenges, too :D [23:52]
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asciilifeform sort of how cats spend most of their time sitting around. efficient predators. [23:52]
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assbot [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 1 @ 0.42 BTC [-] [23:53]
mircea_popescu with cats its prolly the conspiracy of being cute. [23:53]
mircea_popescu kakobrekla got a better one for you : http://polimedia.us/dtng/c/src/136685028116.gif [23:53]
kakobrekla lol [23:53]
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assbot [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 3 @ 0.415 = 1.245 BTC [-] [23:54]
mircea_popescu "honey... gotta put these in water" [23:54]
jurov i see the roses i bought were put to good use [23:54]
mircea_popescu lol [23:54]
MJR_ lol [23:54]
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MJR_ mircea_popescu: avoid challenges that can't be avoided...hard to explain i guess, but some things have to be done, not talking about wasting effort [23:55]
mircea_popescu yes. sometimes hard to distinguish from outside. [23:56]
asciilifeform rms above is a bad example. he has a "mad hermit" image (external and internal, as well) to maintain. [23:57]
mircea_popescu tbh i think he's just mildly retarded. [23:57]
asciilifeform his unbathed carcass and rags are as important as an actress's manicure. [23:57]
asciilifeform even if he's a natural. [23:57]
kakobrekla ;;goxlag [23:58]
gribble MtGox lag is 2.923985 seconds. During this time, light travels 0.00585963320143 AU. You could have sent a bitcoin from Jupiter to its largest moon, Ganymede (0.007155 AU). [23:58]
mircea_popescu dude everything's a conspiracy with you. [23:58]
jborkl oh lol 134 [23:58]
jborkl 131 [23:58]
asciilifeform more like "prospiracy" (things that happen a certain way, because it actually makes sense, but having the appearance of purpose.) [23:58]
mircea_popescu jborkl there was a dude earlier telling me my article is out of date [23:59]
mircea_popescu rather than updating the article i updated the price [23:59]
jborkl oh my people running at the door screaming [23:59]
jborkl good call on that [23:59]
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