Now talking in #personalfinance
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denali1 isn't it in the Constitution? eg we'd need to amend? good fucking luck?
arble it's not required that Congress provide a postal service
hrosin The Universal Plan For Wealth does this sound like it might work irl?
arble it is merely authorised to do so
arble looks like a total load of nonsense. anyone advising you to sell things to buy bitcoin is wrong
arble if you want to buy some bitcoin, do it using money you have spare rather than money already tied up in other things
hrosin but why?
arble well bitcoin is a very poor store of wealth long term
hrosin how do you figure?!
arble and as soon as it becomes a better one it'll immediately be regulated by the very bodies blogs like this advise escaping
hrosin um. why would that matter?
arble blogs like this are the digital version of old school apocalypse preppers
hrosin so do you think regulation is more important than money?
arble that's not a meaningful question. is rain more important than IBM?
fooobarrr do you really think that whites are superior arble ?
hrosin how not? you say "X wouldn't work because Y". what's regulation to do with money?
fooobarrr jeeze. you really just jump to conclusiosn
hrosin you didn't say "ibm will never work because it will rain". you said "bitcoin will never work because regulation". not a much more cogent point, i grant you.
arble people like this view bitcoin as useful because it's outside regulation of bodies like the US government
arble the article seems to have it in for "USG" in particular
hrosin no, i follow that part. some people hate teh dollar.
arble but that status won't continue if it becomes a popular currency in the real world rather than just for buying drugs
hrosin why not?
arble because the government would prefer to be in control of the money supply. same way you're not allowed to print your own dollars
hrosin but what differece does that make? government can prefer whatever it prefers. what's that matter in the real world? same government would prefer aleppo to be smaller than mosul, and so on.
arble well the government can do things like fine, arrest, imprison etc. which I believe is what happens to people making dollars at home
hrosin it can ~try~. there's a large difference. so far it's been trying for twenty years to matter in central asia, has not managed yet.
unicron_ lol @ maxing out your credit cards to buy bitcoin
arble my main point here is that plunging everything into bitcoin is absolute nonsense and of no benefit. what is "TMSR"
hrosin arble i get your conviction, just trying to understand what it's based on, so as to maybe progress to meaningful discussion. so far all i have is "my idea of government precludes any need for money in the theoretical world i prefer to think i inhabit".
arble there is no meaningful discussion to be had about bitcoin with the likes of you. you are either a troll or a zealot and neither can bring anything useful to this channel
hrosin wait, what? i'm no good now either?
hrosin am i getting regulated therefore also?
arble if you carry on spouting nonsense you might get regulated in the sense of being kicked from the channel
when someone suitably empowered checks in.
hrosin and you think i'm the zealot?
chelsey-dagger Let's keep it civil, people
* hrosin trying.
fooobarrr guys im investing all my savings into bottle caps. govt doesn't regulate bottlecaps. therefore i win.
im not looking for advice im just sayin'
hrosin worked in fallout 2.
guy they're not regulated but technically you'd still owe capital gains
chelsey-dagger You won't be banned for making foolish decisions with your money, but you may be banned if you try to advise others to do the same
hrosin chelsey-dagger: if that was @me, i was trying to figure out if the guy was making any sense, ran into some other guy not making any sense. the internet is failing me.
denali1 oh man, #bubbletime. this is amazing
mohawk-Tx whats going on
hrosin but anyway, as far as government lulz go: the government of the us has a list of 60 russian people it claims are badguys(tm) and stole all their money if they were foolish enough to have any in us or its satellites. meanwhile russia has a similar list of 60 people, including i dunno, preet bharara. similarly badpeople, similarly stolen moneys etc. which of the two is the right one? or is that decided by my asking in english. seems russia has regulated being us district attorney out of the marketplace? or am i misunderstanding something?
denali1 bitcoin dude. sell shit to buy digital currency? amazing.
mohawk-Tx not following you hrosin
hrosin be specific.
arble nobody has a clue what you're talking about
hrosin but can anybody be specific?
fooobarrr hrosin high af
arble we can't be specific when we don't understand the totality of what you're saying
hrosin here, let's try formal approach. statement 1: "bitcoin can never be useful because the government of the us will regulate it if it were". statement 2. "the government of russia has regulated us attorney as not being useful, but this doesn't matter". now, which flavour of special pleading will you opt for to maintain both of these?
mohawk-Tx I don't understand bitcoin at all, so I'm not qualified to comment hrosin
arble don't understand your second statement at all. gonna bow out now
fooobarrr i thought someone was investing all their money in bitcoin. that's what i understood. is that incorrect?
hrosin some dude said it's the thing to do and i was curious if it could work irl. ended up in a barage of weird for my trouble.
fooobarrr well they're wrong
hrosin how do you know?
fooobarrr because of the way it is
hrosin you knwo you sound just like the other guy... what's coming up next, "Because i'm the adult!!!" ?
chelsey-dagger I think part of the breakdown in communication here is that people are not saying "If the government hasn't regulated it, that means that they don't think it's useful" but rather "Because of its capabilities to be abused, if it's not regulated, it's not useful"
hrosin can you be specific about that? how would it be abused to make it not useful for the purpose (ie, saving i guess)
guy bitcoin is little more than a large scale proof of concept. it could collapse tomrorow for all we know
chelsey-dagger Do you not know of, say, the MtGox debacle? Something like that could easily happen again
hrosin chelsey-dagger: apparently some brokerage house ran off with its customer funds ?i mean... brokerages run with customer funds all the god damned time, happened recently to the tune of billions iirc. nobody got convicted, either.
guy it's far too risky, far too young, far too volatile to be a serious investmment, it's fun to play around with and some people have gotten rich off it, but it's little more than a gamble
denali1 why you guys feeding this troll?
hrosin it is worth more than say... apple. would you say same about buying apple stock? too young etc?
unicron_ hrosin: there are lots of scenarios where the value of bitcoin could go to 0. i wouldn't recommend holding more than 5% of one's portfolio in cryptocurrencies
guy yeah you're right, sounds like a troll
chelsey-dagger lmao comparing bitcoin to apple stock
hrosin dude all this nonsense, "oh, i don't understand what the other said therefore he's satan". can we chill with it?
denali1 the fuck? just ban this guy
hrosin chelsey-dagger: is the idea here that apple stock could never go to 0 or what exactly.
chelsey-dagger You're getting too hostile hrosin, chill
* hrosin shrugs.
unicron_ i also don't recommend holding large amounts of individual stocks
hrosin unicron_: the problem with these "i recommend" statements is that i have no idea who you are and therefore couldn't care less. makes sense?
guy then why are you here
unicron_ hrosin: you could ask for my rationale if you are curious
hrosin unicron_: i don't believe it is your rationale. i heard that before, and from people whom i knew, and i understood it then. as best i can tell your rationale for repeating trite points in an unrelated discussion is ~same as any other spammer's : the hope you'll derive a little out of superficial examination.
chelsey-dagger Are you seriously coming in here and calling my regulars spammers
→ ramentissue has joined
hrosin guy: certainly not to gather apodictical recommends from people on the internet. was curious to discuss whether X nonsense could or couldn't work.
guy so you're saying you're a troll
denali1 if i use big words, my point is better than yours.
ramentissue can someone help me with 401k advice?
denali1 yes. ask away.
hrosin no, i am saying i'm an adult, interested in what i'm interested and not particularily looking for a pacifier.
guy sure! not sure about the adult part
* hrosin will now follow the 401k advice portion, i'm curious how that goes.
chelsey-dagger What's up ramentissue.
chelsey-dagger ramentissue I would prefer you keep the conversation in channel. You'll get better advice from more people anyways.
hrosin longer, at any rate.
ramentissue so my father recently retired/laid off. he was offered a severance package (i guess allowed him to retire with his 401k). He will be 60, I believe at the end of the year. He wants to start withdrawing from this to gift to me to help me out in buying a house. We're not sure how to go about this. I believe its a traditional 401k. He also has to option of rolling it into a traditional IRA, but we're not sure if this would be the route to go.
hrosin ramentissue: without the exact terms of the deal you're at large risk to blunder it even if people on the internet actually knew what they're talking about.
guy he could take SEP payments, if it's only 7 years that may be easier, given the time frame an ira conversion ladder wouldn't be worth it, or could just take the penalty
chelsey-dagger guy, I mean can't you take 401k withdrawals after 59 1/2 without penalty?
arble yes. income tax will be payable
hrosin income tax.
ramentissue ooh is it 59.5? ell that's pretty much sorted then
arble so if you're not in a rush to buy the house it could be advantageous to have him withdraw a bit each year, e.g. to pay less tax
denali1 Gifting will be separate from the 401k disbersments.
unicron_ ramentissue: whether the IRA makes sense depends on the fund options available in the 401k and whether or not they started charging him fees that were formerly paid by the employer
denali1 so basically, he can gift you up to $14k a year without tax consequence, which is separate from the 401k.
arble denali1: but doesn't the dad have to pay income tax on the withdrawal? in order to have cash to gift
hrosin yes he does.
denali1 It's separate. So, if he doesn't have $14k on hand to transfer, then yes but it has nothing to with gifting.
arble yes. correct
denali1 however it'd just be at his regular income tax rate, whatever that is. so potentially 0
fooobarrr i just bought the ethereum.boston domain
arble I got the best of both worlds with the gift rules. received a large gift last year but it was from a foreign person not subject to IRS rules
denali1 lol, nice
fooobarrr seems legit
fooobarrr bitcoin.boston was $600. too much
hrosin dun worry, it'll be regulared or something. i read it on irc. aanyway. let's indulge unicron_ : do you ALSO "not recommend taking large positions in individual symbols" if one's a start-up early employee? this whole thing where people sell all their stuff to start a venture is a bad idea altogether?
fooobarrr i mean domains are already regulated by the ICANN
* mohawk-Tx wonders if McDonald's would take bitcoin
hrosin fooobarrr: yet magically they seem to have a price independently!
fooobarrr they don't sell anything. they just put numbers and strings into databases
hrosin oh i see.
denali1 Uhmm. half the world just puts bullshit numbers and strings into databases these days
← ramentissue has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client)
denali1 and the other half is figuring out how to take that bullshit and put it back into pretty charts.
hrosin seems to be pretty much all the economic activity everywhere yeah
fooobarrr we're just enetering strings into the irc that spits out strings. there's probably a db somewhere storing our strings. who would have thought that numbers and strings could be so complicated!
VeXocide denali1, story of my life, teaching computers how to turn bullshit into pretty graphs
denali1 ok. scenario time.
fooobarrr yes. what scenario
denali1 I have 30,000 ISO options priced at $1.40 per share. Our current 409a valuation is $3 a share. The cost to purchase said options will be $42,000. The AMT taxes on this will be $13,440. I have this in cash, this will be less than 5% of my total net worth. I think the 409a will go up, but I do not think there will be an equity event in the next 12-24 months, but could be wrong. Do I purchase the options now, for more favorable tax
treatment later, assuming cash on hand? If I wait for a 409a value of say $5 a share, taxes increase to about $23k, and upwards from there. I will be receiving more shares as they vest, so I will be stuck with higher 409a valuations later, too. I already pay AMT, so no avoiding that.
denali1 Why? oh, and I didn't file 83(b)
hrosin specifically for the "more valuable treatment later". you don't have to sell them.
fooobarrr there are far too many numbers
hrosin this is basically soros deferrance, on teh tiny scale.
fooobarrr ( (soros) )
denali1 More specifically I CANNOT sell them until there's an equity event. whether that's a sale or an IPO
hrosin you might not sell them for 30 years.
denali1 I might never sell them
hrosin right. that's it.
denali1 Also, I can declare a capital loss against the AMT if the company dies or whatever
denali1 also, I think i get some of the AMT back when (if) I sell I need to research that a bit
hrosin as an offset only, maybe. that gets iffy.
unicron_ hrosin: i would not work for a startup that paid only in stock unless i was a founder
hrosin is that important? (consider: working for start-up consists of work. hodling bitcoin, consists of no work. to compare meaningfully you'd take a fair salary for your work in the start-up scenario.)
unicron_ i would found a startup if i was very poor or very rich. if i had the skills for a six figure income from an established company then i'd forego the risk and hassle of starting a business
hrosin if you were things you imagine and if they work like you imagine they did, you'd know what to do?
unicron_ most startups fail
denali1 Nobody else other than troll dude has an opinion? lol sigh
hrosin denali1: sad isn't it.
arble I would buy them now if you have the cash in hand. it's already a good deal
hrosin denali1: kinda killed shannonizer discussion with your mention of the 5% thing. that's what they were gonna say.
arble I don't see the appeal of startups at all. I have never been a gambler. big companies allow me to get paid well while not really doing much work A++
denali1 hrosin: How do you mean?
hrosin arble: your problem is deeper : you do not understand the point of money, at all. as far as your mental life is concerned, soviet style socialism with govt allocations would really be the best appoach.
denali1 Most everyone here knows my net worth anyway. it's not some big secret.
hrosin denali1: i mean what i've seen so far indicates a sort of church group, they sing hallellujah at certain intervals, when they recognize certain words. you closed off that by saying the magic "and it's less than 5% of my nw", so they had nothing to say (that they could figure out cheaply enough).
VeXocide denali1, few thoughts 1) no avoiding AMT makes this easier, 2) it's a fraction of your net worth to lock up, 3) favorable with long term, and AMT go for it
arble it's a good deal now and becomes a better deal later
unicron_ denali1: what happens if you can never sell and the company does not die?
denali1 Well, then I gambled and lost
VeXocide denali1, there's another thought, see if it's possible to buy part of it using a tax-deferred account
* VeXocide needs to look into this
hrosin unicron_ is not possible irl.
denali1 VeXocide: It isn't. I need to give them a check
VeXocide denali1, an IRA can't send them a check?
denali1 Good... question. that'd be amazing.
denali1 I will research this.
hrosin iirc you can't do that, unless roth or something.
VeXocide denali1, let me know what you find
denali1 OK. Yuck. my stock admin told me the june 30 409a is still pending. so I'd owe taxes on $X
VeXocide it might be tricky, but the benefits could be significant here if the payout is as large as we think it might be
VeXocide also no worries regarding the time horizon, was locked up anyways
denali1 probably can't buy my tesla if I buy this, but this could allow me to buy a P100D :D
in tax savings. Well, I can buy the Tesla but i probably shouldn't if I drop 50k in GambleStock
VeXocide lol, right
unicron_ hrosin: why not possible?
VeXocide urgh, should just drop the 50-60k myself come oct
mohawk-Tx my SS quotes:------- age 62 would be $1,893 ---- age 66.5: $2,694------age 70: $3,518
hrosin because ~the whole shebang is organized so as to not end up with this sort of main morte. either the expenses will kill it or the interest will push it up, there's no "balanced rock" in economics.
VeXocide mohawk-Tx, you actually have experience pulling tricks with your IRA and might just know could you buy company options with an IRA?
mohawk-Tx not that know of
goatbrook get a tesla!
mohawk-Tx hi doc
VeXocide yo goatbrook
mohawk-Tx time for lunch here, gotta find some roadkill on a stick. if this guy on the phone lets me off. grrr
VeXocide denali1, if I'm reading this right you can fund an IRA with $5,500 in options (or $11k if married probably). no sure what'd happen with exercising them
denali1 i can fit this all in my IRA, that'd be funny
VeXocide doubt it, but possibly a fraction
denali1 I have like $80k in there. and with no AMT, I would just need to cut the 40k check. oh you know, this could get messy. if I bought with my IRA, it's mine, not joint. if I got divorced, I might need a QDRO. that would be annoying.