Eulora, that chiffré land of cifre & cyphers

mircea_popescu Anyway, data for 6`713 bhⁱ hits (with 7 cft smalls)ⁱⁱ : 455 cft + 773 lbnⁱⁱⁱ used. Got low q (208) : 392 cft + 157 sb^iv + 70 sr^v + 2 rf^vi + 1 bn^vii ; also 45 TPT^viii q 170 ; 107 wpl^ix q 143 ; 2 ae^x q 144 ; hi q^xi (685) : 203 cdg + 56 sb + 9 sr + 2 bn + 2 f ; also 19 wpl q 469, 3 tpt q 560.
hanbot You "got" cft? You mean cdg?

mircea_popescu Yeah.
hanbot Whoa 685.^xii

mircea_popescu So to math this, 60^xiii * (392 * 208 + 203 * 685) + 58 * (157 * 208 + 56 * 685) + 79 * (70 * 208 + 9 * 685) + 159 * (45 * 170 + 3 * 560) + 152 * (107 * 143 + 19 * 460) + 71 * (208 + 2*685) 384 * 2 * 144 + 80 * 2 * 208 + 88 * 2 * 685 = 245058.35 total bv^xiv loot. And 10 ordinaries, to boot^xv. Buying the stuff from myself it'd be 180*1.8* 455 for cft + 773 * 169 for lbn (iirc it sold at 1 ecu / q point ?) = 278057.
hanbot Not bad.

mircea_popescu Seeing how it took 25 hours, I'd say it made me no less than 245058 * 1.5 + 100000 for ords - 278057 = 189530 ECu, ie somewhat better than previous estimate of 100k/day.

[ Intermission]

danielpbarron Woah!
danielpbarron wow
danielpbarron Did I get a pop on something? 1k mysterious rock just mysteriously appeared in my inventory while explore. Lol they are so heavy i can't move just from them.
mircea_popescu o.O

danielpbarron Yeah wow, that's like a 0.8 pop. Is that a record?^xvi
mircea_popescu Oddly doesn't show up in pops ? Nope, there it is. No idea why the tops don't show it yet^xvii, but it's there. Congrats daniel, you struck it!

danielpbarron :D
mircea_popescu Remember like... TWO YEARS AGO ? when there was a contest to find skill items ? Before altars and everyhing ?

danielpbarron Vaguely...
Title: Eulora Sunday Event - July the 19th on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. (at trilema.com)

danielpbarron Well good thing the pop itself is worth so much 'cause I can't claim a prize in that contest.
mircea_popescu Nuts huh. Anyway, definitely largest to date.^xviii
hanbot Congrats danielpbarron. yow!
DianaComan oh wow, congratulations danielpbarron !

mircea_popescu So in further updates of my now piddly exploration run, 8`880 attempts yielded : low q (208) : 963 sb + 445 cf + 95 sr, also 106 wpl q 142, 70 tpt q 169, 6 ae q 143 ; high q : 13 wpl q 177 ; 11 tpt q 210 ; 124 cdg q257, 34 sr q 258, 47 sb q 257. And I used 932 lbn + 144 cft.
DianaComan Not bad for bh for sure. I think it's quite exploring 2.0 with this new relentless bot-with-table.

mircea_popescu It is!
DianaComan If only noobs actually read this; or something.

mircea_popescu So altogether : 58 * (963 * 208 + 47 * 257) + 60 * (445 * 208 + 124 * 257) + 79 * (95 * 208 + 34 * 258) + 152 * (106 * 142 + 13 * 177) + 159 * (70 * 169 + 11 * 210) + 384 * (6 * 143) ie 272`533.1 bv incoming, and 180 * 1.8 * 2.54 * 144 for cft + 932 * 169 for lbn = 276`014.24 mv^xix outgoing. So the bh with 1 cft was actually a wash. I also only got 1 ord as opposed to 10 previous (shorter) run. Such variance I swear....
DianaComan Uhm, but wait, did you actually use 1 cft of 254 q??

mircea_popescu Yup.
DianaComan How does that make sense?

mircea_popescu How not ?
DianaComan If I use 1 cft I'd use the lowest q I can get ffs.

mircea_popescu That's what this is.
DianaComan Why to overcraft it ..just a bit, kind of style? I mean sure, you can, but it's not very surprising it didn't turn out great.

mircea_popescu Well... you got low q grass ? Or cft ? But you have a point, I should have used q 1 lbn and cft here, not q > 100. It's just that i dun have any.
DianaComan I am using some q3 here, lol. CFT I mean.

mircea_popescu What q basics do you get from it ?
DianaComan 33 with 1 single cft. You prolly still have higher sortage than me I'd guess. As for lbn I always use highest q now that I can keep them separate; I guess q11 lbn would also be an option, but I certainly don't have enough of that.

mircea_popescu So one q 254 cft = 8.5 q 3 cft in terms of result value.
DianaComan Mhm, you mean assuming that you get the same number of items from a claim with 1q 3 or 1q254? On this run so far (720 attempts with a basic pickaxe) I already got 1000 grass at 33 q and 276 at 371q for instance, plus 15 tlc 308q (another reason to use high q lbn right now), and some 600 sb , 200 wpl , 100 sr. But interesting how you are basically stuck overcrafting whether you want it or not if you say you don't have any cft under 100 at all.

mircea_popescu I usually get 1.
DianaComan That's precisely my point above: I usually get more than 1 with such low q cft.

mircea_popescu Hm. I rarely do.
DianaComan That's why I undercraft in the first place really: to get larger quantity faster (even if lower q). With 254 I probably wouldn't get more than 1 either, sure.

mircea_popescu Anyway, to cap up the mining data thing : 272533.1 * 1.6 + 10000 - 276014.24 = 170038.72 profit over 8880 tries, coming to 19.15 ECu gain per attempt. Whereas yest's 189530 profit over 6713 hits comes to 28.23 ECu gain per attempt. O look at that, i didn't add cft quality in THAT data. brb restating. This line should read 180*1.8*2.54* 455 for cft + 773 * 169 for lbn = 505083.8. So the next one becomes 245058 * 1.6 + 100000 for ords - 505083.8 = −12991. I made a 2 ecu loss each try rather than a gain. Hurr.
DianaComan Lol. Losses are but gains for others.

mircea_popescu Funny lol, this run seemed weaker than that run ; once I did the math... nope. And the math is so fucking intricate just loosely evaluating things doesn't work.
DianaComan Math kills uh oh math kills.

mircea_popescu ANYWAY. I don't think it's terribly fair, to count very high q items such as q 600+ grass obtained through the risky and expensive behaviour of 7-cft mining with high q cft, at the same % as normal grass. So the numbers for prev run aren't prolly all that correct. For one thing, I don't know who else can get grass in the upper half of 1k quality.
DianaComan Anybody can: they just need very high q cft. With several iterations one can get that anyway, if they really are after it.

mircea_popescu Well yes but it'll cost them even more. At least so I think. But sure, get q 10`000 cft, make any q grass you wish.
DianaComan Well, as long as you have highest sortage by a significant margin, you should be able to get basics at higher q with lower costs I'd say, makes sense.

mircea_popescu Anyway, iterations don't really help, I've seen a dampening at work. For instance, the absolute highest grass I can get is ~1060 or so. I can iterate that as many times as I want, still won't get higher.because crafting THAT into cft with the best bps^xx I got gets me cft q same as I used to get it in the first place.
DianaComan So that's the limitation of your bps.

mircea_popescu Yeah, it's a dynamic sort of multi-limit thing.
DianaComan But you know, with high q cons^xxi you can easily get some bps at 500q - should get you higher q cft I would say.

mircea_popescu this is a point. maybe i should click a few tink books see what happens.
DianaComan But for the same reason as you just (finally) acknowledged here re high q not being quite same as middle q, I would certainly not sell bps at 500q.

mircea_popescu I'd sell them, if I made them. Why not, I'll make more.
DianaComan I meant not at price calculated same as 150q bps. For one thing it simply doesn't add up as far as I seen until now.

mircea_popescu There is that. I wonder how the fuck to calculate these.^xxii
DianaComan That was precisely "for another thing" - I have no idea how to price them properly (other than perhaps a direct: this is my cost on x runs, hence ..)

mircea_popescu "So one q 254 cft = 8.5 q 3 cft in terms of result value.", going on this logic, 254/3 = 84.666666667 and we want ... 8.5... so maybe should just add a factor = 10% of the q diff ? Id est, "how much is q 100 cft ?" "180 * 1 * 1.8 each." "and q 1 cft ?" "180 * 0.01 * 1.8 + 180 * 0.01 * 1.8 * (1 - 0.01)/10". So 324 for one and 35.316 the other. Would you sell q 3 cft for 180 * 0.01 * 1.8 + 180 * 1 * 1.8 * (1 - 0.03)/10 = 34.668 each ? Or, more's the point, would you exchange q 3 for q 254 cft, 9.345794393 to 1 ?
DianaComan Hm, good question; I have to think of it a bit.

mircea_popescu The problem with "this is my cost" is that buyer has the very legitimate q of "over how many runs". And if the answer isn't "I dunno, 1mn, or w/e the fuck daniel did to get the myst", or if the answer doesn't include the myst, you're on weak ground.
DianaComan 9 q 3 cft for 1 q 254 cft hm, might work;

mircea_popescu 9 and change!
DianaComan Lol, yes; and yeah, that's the trouble with the cost approach.

mircea_popescu Essentially you can't separate public and private sphere in any public way ; nor can you say "up to here it's me being lucky, from here on it's the item costing so much".
DianaComan Hm, on one hand it would mean to get at least 9 low q grass where I would get otherwise 1 high q; on the other hand it means putting in 9 cft bps (low q) instead of 1.

mircea_popescu Yeah, the bp question is, so to speak, "smecleu' de tine titele de-olalta". (Don't try and translate that to English, you'll hurt yourself.)
DianaComan lol

mircea_popescu Because if you have very low q bps, such as q 3 say, it is still more reasonable to rectify them by mixing with high q bps than to use them straight. I have some q 20 for instance and im not burning them.
DianaComan Aha. That's what I did with quite all my 450+ q bps - used them to up some of the low q ones I was stuck with otherwise.

mircea_popescu So tbh, I think the problem of "how to price very low q items" is going away by itself : we won't have any. So you know... use your q 3 grass while that lasts, showoff!
DianaComan Ahahah.

mircea_popescu "Oh, why are you mining with high q cft". WHAYDO YOU THINK
DianaComan That might be although some noobs will come at some point and they would get low q, no?

mircea_popescu Yeah but I mean... how is a noob going to produce bps.
* diana_coman was unaware of the rarity of low q grass given that she sold some stacks of it back in the day
DianaComan By getting a job to click?

mircea_popescu I suppose someone could show up tomorrow, deposit a coupla BTC or w/e, buy a table, buy 10mn work of tokens, buy everything and click away. Actually... so this only seems hard because people are lazy & clueless.
DianaComan To be fair it is hard to make sense of it directly for sure. But that's not an excuse as to why there is nobody even trying apparently.

mircea_popescu "Altcoin mining" is a) much harder and b) doesn't actually pay.
DianaComan But everybody does it!!!

mircea_popescu Quite. "I wonder why I'm poor after a lifetime dedicated to trying what everyone else was!"
DianaComan But it worked for .. someone!

mircea_popescu "The only way to get ahead [if you're dedicated to trying what everyone else is] would be getting lucky or inheriting! God damned lack of opportunities! HUO!"
DianaComan Speaking of buying: I have some 50 tomes of various qualities from 149 to 265 at least; let me know if you want any of them.

mircea_popescu Qualities of what staple ?
DianaComan Lol, I got them out in my inventory to count them and order them by q as storage is a pain for this; now I'm playing a kind of puzzle in my inv to put them in groups by q. The unexpected games in Eulora.

mircea_popescu What are ya talking about ?
DianaComan Tomes don't mix; in storage you can't see quality unless right click and so just one at a time, huge pain. But in inventory they show the quality now, a pleasure.

mircea_popescu Oh oh.
DianaComan So got them all in inv and now sorting them by q: moving them about like in a puzzle, lol. 7 tomes 149q; 20 tomes 157q; 16 tomes 291q; 6 tomes 293q; 10 tomes 308q, mircea_popescu, danielpbarron anyone else wanting to click some cons or otherwise wipe themselves with really expensive tomes.
danielpbarron I haven't used the last batch of tomes I bought.

mircea_popescu I'll buy 'em.
DianaComan And that would come to... 88462*4.43*(7*1.49+20*1.57+16*2.91+6*293+10*3.08)

mircea_popescu I'm sorry, 3/4 bn ?!
* DianaComan is calculating again as it sounds crazy
DianaComan Do you see anything wrong in there though? As I don't.

mircea_popescu 7 + 20 + 16 + 6 + 10 = 59 books meaning 12`468`571 per book ?
DianaComan They are 59 books indeed.

mircea_popescu Yeah but im not paying 12.5mn per lol.
DianaComan Guess the high q ones get there since they'd be some 300k base value * 4.43. No, that'd be still less, ugh.

mircea_popescu That's 1.2mn.
DianaComan What is wrong there, lol!

mircea_popescu 6 * 293. Try 2.93.
DianaComan Ahahaha true, sorry.

mircea_popescu 53`598`338.4882
DianaComan Aha, that sounds better.^xxiii

mircea_popescu Definitely largest trade in history. Funny thing being that by now the trades struggle to equal the pops. Before it was quite otherwise as we had dozens of trades larger than the 11 mn previously record pop.^xxiv
DianaComan Well, it's really just this super pop of Daniel's though, isn't it?

mircea_popescu Hey. Daniel the superpop :D
DianaComan Lol!
danielpbarron I think I had the previous record too: the sizeable.

mircea_popescu Yeah tho that was never quantified. Possibly under my 11,68.
DianaComan At least these tomes are light actually.

mircea_popescu Hit me.
DianaComan It's 53.6 lol.

mircea_popescu Aha. We'll be here a while huh. 9 at a time
DianaComan Yeah, will try to keep them ordered by q at least.

mircea_popescu Good idea. Ok 16 291.
DianaComan Those are all the 16 at 291q. Why u busy lol.

mircea_popescu Cuz I gotta dump. Only like 20 slots empty or so.
DianaComan 157 q now, 2 more of those.

mircea_popescu Kk.
DianaComan 1 more at 308q.

mircea_popescu 10. word. 7 149.
DianaComan 7 at 149q. Only 6 at 293 and we are done. Phew, that was long; thank you!

mircea_popescu Tyvm hehe. Oh look at that : more Bitcoin trade than Bitpay processed today.^xxv
DianaComan Ahahaha, why so mean, they are doing their best, neh?

mircea_popescu Surely. I think we need bigger blocks for it too!
DianaComan Now that my shelves are free, gotta go mine some sg to make more gin to make more..tomes.

mircea_popescu I could just sell some more gt^xxvi tho ?
DianaComan What do you have?

mircea_popescu O wow check that out, I don't. You bought me out ?^xxvii
DianaComan Aha. Lolz.

mircea_popescu Hm. Want soem gin then ?
DianaComan What gin is that?

mircea_popescu q 133, 134, 136...
DianaComan Hm, should work; how much do you have?

mircea_popescu You can have 3k q133, lessee. 3230 * 1.33 * 3.27 * 7254 = 101`901`239.622. Ha! COUGH IT BACK UP!
DianaComan Hm, lemme calc with that 3.27 of yours so that I don't end up having to up the tome prices ugh.

mircea_popescu Check me out Mr. ATF man, I'm selling OVER A BITCOIN'S WORTH OF CHEAP GIN. Unlicensed! Bath tub distillery! No labels even! And she's probably underage.
DianaComan Uhm, trouble is that it doesn't make sense. It seems I end up cheaper if I sell to you the stuff to make gt and then buy the gt?? So will do that instead I guess.

mircea_popescu O okies! Course this means I'll have to craft some btks^xxviii...
DianaComan That's not my problem, lol. But it kind of makes sense too: you are supposed to be the crafter!

mircea_popescu A no I already did, they're stashed. Alright, so let me know when you have the gear ?
DianaComan Yeah, will see; 3.2k gin makes some 1.6k gt and needs some...3.2k sg; will see how it goes.

mircea_popescu I'm short about 3k sg and 50k cr.^xxix
DianaComan Ah, cr; right.

In conclusion : noobs are still needed. What are you waiting for ?

1. Bare handed. In Eulora you don't need any tools to dig up the soil, you can do it with your bare hands! [↩]
2. The more common finds are Tiny, Small and Ordinary. The Small finds are remarkable in that they allow a lot of leeway to the operator : he can use anything between one and seven Coarse Frangible Threads (ie, CFT) to dig them up. The choice evidently influences output, it's just not terribly clear how. This run used 7. [↩]
3. Little Bits of Nothing. Literally. Obtained naturally through the decay of disused keys, or otherwise crafted - they're the result of tearing up Maculature as per Shredding Instructions. Which Maculature is made up of old recipes, blueprints, doodles scl. [↩]
4. Solid Branch. [↩]
5. Solid Rock. [↩]
6. Rotten Fruit. [↩]
7. Bird's Nest. [↩]
8. Three-pointed thorn. [↩]
9. Worthless Putrid Leather. Apparently not so worthless after all. [↩]
10. Abandoned Eggs. [↩]
11. Because of intricacies in how the bot works, you end up with a lower and a higher quality of each staple. [↩]
12. It is pretty sweet quality, I'll grant. [↩]
13. Base value of CDG, in ECu. [↩]
14. Base Value, ie, what the game pays for things. Players often offer more moneyz. [↩]
15. Ordinary claims are often exploited separately for operational convenience reasons. [↩]
16. Yep, it is. Previous record was 11.6 mn ECu, ie, 0.116 BTC. [↩]
17. This is getting fixed Wednesday. [↩]
18. "Daniel has got 0.81 BTC worth of Boulder and assorted loot while building. Congratulations!" [↩]
19. Market value. In this case, the bv of the items considered would be 180 * 2.54 * 144 + 11 * 932 * 1.69 = 83162.68. This makes the market value a 276`014.24 / 83`162.68 = 331.9% premium over the base value in this particular case. It is not so exceptional, either. [↩]
20. Blueprints. Crafting requires blueprints (which are in turn crafted), and apparently their quality influences the output item quality. [↩]
21. Considerations, the blueprints for the process that produces blueprints. [↩]
22. This is a perennial problem in Eulora, see Multivariate calculus for experts ; So you're a rational fellow, right ? ; Whoever said resource allocation is a solved problem deserves a kick in the nads. etc. [↩]
23. It also sounds like half a Bitcoin, you realise. [↩]
24. Which I held. [↩]
25. Eulora's come a long way since September. [↩]
26. Grubsilk Thread, used to make the tomes. Requires Alchemist's Cheap Gin. [↩]
27. She had, 16mn ie 0.16 BTC for 225 GT, q 133. [↩]
28. Bandar Toolkits. Eulora crafting is rather complex. [↩]
29. Crumbly Rock. You know, like sugar, only muddier. [↩]