Security Experts to Fiat World : Fuck you, srsly!

Tuesday, 10 December, Year 5 d.Tr. | Author: Mircea Popescu

Part one :

BBMi Hallo!
MP Sup.

BBM So they really did change the name of that football championship. It's supposed to be the NCAA college football championship, yknow? Now it's the "vizio bcs bowl". Asshats. I wonder if in the future everything will be like...
MP When and why ?

BBM I have no idea when, and the clearest idea of why is that some ppl sponsored it. Nobody in comments seems to think it's a problem, just straightforward it's the same championship. They happened to change the fuck out of the name.
MP Cancel the bet.

BBM Imo this doesn't affect the validity of the bet... srsly?!
MP Well... Ima consult with K, but yes.

BBM Please do. Listen, it's like...
MP You can't stick to a name it's not a bet.

BBM You called... wait!ii You called the French open "the Roland Garros" in one of your bets.
MP So ?

BBM Well wtf is that? It's an alternate name. Can people reasonably be expected to know what it is anyway? Yes. Same deal.
MP it's what it's called!

BBM Well now this is what it's called too! For all I know they changed it a year ago. It's not like they freaking document the stupid choices they make.
MP Fiat world is too stupid for Bitcoin.

BBM It is. But srsly, if you Google "NCAA college football championship" your first result is the wiki page for the BCS.
MP O I see. That's a fucking argument now.

BBM And I mean. Used to be it was a regular championship, you know, you have to win a certain number of games to play in it, elimination rounds first. Now they "select the teams".iii
MP If you google Obama the first result is a white duck. I am telling you, the fiat thing is not ready for the future, and will not make it into the future. Just too stupid and rotten by now.

BBM if we were trying to establish that he has something to do with a duck?
MP No, simply googling that string of five letters. Fuck, moot was Times man of the year. According to... moot. And you know, the Internet.

BBM Well then a different angle. If we get so insistent about what things may be called, despite what they are, it's going to make resolving future bets nigh on impossible.
MP Fuck.

BBM What if BFL delivers their stupid shit to spec but calls it something else?
MP Listen, one day someone is going to falsely claim a namechange and slip right on through. How can you or any other mod fucking prove this ?

BBM I guess it's a problem.
MP Anyway. Ty for pointing out THE FUCKING SECURITY HOLE FIAT SHITHOLE IS. We're... working on it, I guess. I hope I live to see it burn.iv

BBM Good fucking morning.

Part twov :

MP There ?
BBBMvi Yes.

MP Ok so there's this retarded football bet where they changed the name of the motherfucking championship midway through. I don't want to cancel the bet, I can't fucking resolve X event on the basis of the results of Y event and I'm pissed the fuck off. You got any input ?
BBBM Like sports has even been a serious thing.

MP Hah! You got a point there... But what the fuck am I going to do. Researching this shit is extremely hard. What if a mod fucks up once ? Not like these asswipes gpg sign anything. How do you even know, you know ? One day someone will falsely claim a name change and we'll end up with a mispaid bet.
BBBM Hm. Why do you hate refunds so much, its not like BBet is out of coin cause of it. It does suck a little but it's the only way to be safe. But... maybe we leave it for a week and wait for any evidence to show up in the comments. Then resolve on a best effort basis and that's that.

MP Trust me, I'm right to hate refunds. But yeah, you're right. Mostly vanted to vent.
BBBM Maybe a BB mod comment with a short explanation that further evidence is needed for x and it resolves in a week. Just a thought.

MP Yeah or "we're investigating". Anyway. This one is kinda easy, but the perspectives it opens for the future are as always what gets me worked up.
BBBM Well you don't want to say that if you are not investigating really and you don't want to waste more mods time on it.

MP I know, I only mean if they actually are. As in, if it's a large bet or w/e.
BBBM kk.

This entire thing meshes well into an older discussion about BitBet's authority, which went like this :

benkay Hey mircea_popescu would you elaborate on how you envision BitBet replacing the courts system?
mircea_popescu Aite. A bet is a controversy in fact, anchored in the future. A suit steams from a controversy in fact, anchored in the past. As the future eventually turns into past, what BitBet has to do and what the courts have to do are homomorphic : establish what the words say, what the facts are and how the two relate. I've quite deliberately constructed it so a lot of triage of facts can be easily done by the users (the constant, leave proof in comments thingvii, for instance). That's a stem. It can further develop. This is incidentally not so different from the core principles of the Rota system, where parties to the controversy also had to deliberately submit to judgement and advance bitcoin. BitBet is a superset of that, really.

So now, Napalm for BTC ? Anyone ?

  1. BitBet Mod. []
  2. People know they gotta act quick in this sort of circumstance, because the window between a tentative ruling and it solidifying into granite may be subsecond. []
  3. By which of course they mean "the sponsors decide which two teams they think will produce more viewers of the right kind for their advertising." I'm sorry to tell you, this is NOT a championship, nor does it have anything to do with sports. Fucking putrid country of mold you got there! []
  4. Anyone selling napalm for BTC ? []
  5. These two flow pretty much simultaneously. []
  6. BitBet Board Member. []

  7. ThickAsThieves So Mircea, would you be willing to at least independently acknowledge that this data shows Gox having less than 50% of btc volume on Aug 28?
    mircea_popescu I can't load it. How'd I go about that ? Put the page as a pastebin somewhere ?

    ThickAsThieves It's graphical, use Chrome, like everybody else :)
    mircea_popescu Lol well, i'm willing to acknowledge I don't use chrome. So put it as a screenshot.

    ThickAsThieves Loads in Opera for me.
    mircea_popescu Anyway, since I'm stuck guessing : your link probably onyl counts mtgoxusd. There's also eur, jpy, and whatever the fuck else, like 4-5 things. This was discussed on the bet comments on like two different passes.

    ThickAsThieves It's all currencies.
    mircea_popescu Is it ?

    ThickAsThieves Yes.
    thestringpuller Yea it's all of them. Currency: "all currencies".
    mircea_popescu But does that actually correctly include the same thing as the bitcoincharts includes. I mean, "all currencies" might mean anything.

    ThickAsThieves Thats the chart. Here is the currency list :
    mircea_popescu Well now we know for a fact it's not good : the bitcoincharts site doesn't include this bit2c thing. Also I don't see no rmbtb.

    ThickAsThieves Including more exchanges would only help my case.
    Ukyo There are roughly 5 chinese rmb exchanges
    mircea_popescu ThickAsThieves how do you reason ? If you're half of your household including more girlfriends makes you more or less a % ?

    ThickAsThieves Gox's pie would decrease more.
    mircea_popescu Exactly ? Which is why your substitute source is no good : it includes more things.

    ThickAsThieves Yes the bet says gox will have less than 50%, yes/no. It resolved no.
    mircea_popescu Right...

    ThickAsThieves But this chart shows it had less than 50% on Aug 28.
    mircea_popescu On some substitute source wherein a lot of other exchanges were counted.

    ThickAsThieves Adding more competition of exchanges would make gox even lower.
    mircea_popescu Exactly.

    ThickAsThieves Oh so you mean this page has more than bitocincharts has?
    mircea_popescu Yes. mtgoxUSD, bitstampUSD, btcnCNY, btceUSD, mtgoxEUR, mtgoxJPY, btcdeEUR, cbxUSD, mtgoxGBP, mtgoxCAD, bitcurexPLN, btceRUR, virtexCAD, mtgoxAUD, virwoxSLL

    ThickAsThieves On that day, bitstamp alone had 14k, gox had 15k, add campbx and gox is at <50%.
    mircea_popescu I find it suspicious mtgox is one single thing, and I find it suspicious that thing is 2 digit precise. Anyway. all this would have been way more useful sometime around August the 8th.

    ThickAsThieves It does 1 decimal.
    mircea_popescu Well what is 15k ?

    ThickAsThieves The issue is that a dynamic chart shouldnt be allowed as a data point, since there is no way to prove yay/nay.
    mircea_popescu Sure there is. What happened to claiming it ?

    ThickAsThieves ?
    mircea_popescu You know, any of the interested parties going "HEY! This bet is won!"

    ThickAsThieves Because no one person was looking at it all times.
    mircea_popescu Tough.

    ThickAsThieves It's BitBet's job to resolve it, not the bettors. Reality is reality, whether bettors point it out or not.
    mircea_popescu Well, reality so far is "no".

    ThickAsThieves Show me.
    mircea_popescu That's the story here : BitBet enacts reality. That's all I do to show you : point to the bitbet decision. You disagree, you show me.

    ThickAsThieves So BitBet has no responsibility for its resolutions to reflect reality?
    mircea_popescu BitBet resolutions ARE reality.

    Kleeck__ LOL. Classic mircea_popescu.
    ThickAsThieves How about the data used to make them?
    mircea_popescu This is like going "o, the court should show me". Dude... you got a case, show your case. You don't got no case... that's what it is.

    Kleeck__ Haha. Yes. Bitbet = habeas corpus.
    mircea_popescu Well, the data, sure. But it has to be THE data.

    ThickAsThieves Would you mind sharing the data used to resolve it? Y'know how lawyers share their data.
    mircea_popescu Kleeck__ No but it's not practical to have BitBet store details in any degree of detail permanently. ThickAsThieves I would, cause it'd create untenable precedent.

    ThickAsThieves Please disclose. Can't use court as justification without same allowances.
    mircea_popescu It's economically unfeasible to require BitBet to permanently maintain records of everything. It's also kinda against the entire concept of bitcoin.

    ThickAsThieves It'll take you more time dealing with me than just showing me.
    59:53 What a perfect position you've created for yourself MP. Bitbet = Reality, but it can't reveal how it comes to it's conclusions. :P
    mircea_popescu It's not a matter that it can't reveal tho.

    ThickAsThieves So you concur the court case justification is not applicable here?
    mircea_popescu Nope.

    ThickAsThieves So it's some kind of court where everyone has to use facts but you?
    Kleeck__ Sounds scammy.
    mircea_popescu ThickAsThieves pretty much. BitBet is the authority. There's not some other authority to which BitBet submits facts, and emphatically that putative authority isn't any user. Meanwhile, users are welcome to bring their cases before the supreme tribunal hich is BitBet.

    ThickAsThieves Not true. The authority is named in the bet. Bitcoincharts.
    mircea_popescu That's the trier of fact, as it were.

    ThickAsThieves I'm merely asking for BitBet to assert its good faith to the court by disclosing how it knew gox was never <50% before Sept.
    mircea_popescu BitBet is the court. That's the point, and that's a good half of the value and utility of BitBet to the community. Teaching people how to work in an actually structured system, rather than floating in this Internet vague.

    ThickAsThieves Is the court allowed to make decisions that conflict with reality?
    mircea_popescu Decisions that conflict with reality aren't at issue here. Reality isn't what you feel it is, it's what you can prove it is. Bring that proof.

    ThickAsThieves I'm not sure the court gives me any avenue for doing so.
    mircea_popescu Well, there's the bitcoincharts site.

    ThickAsThieves The link stated in the bet is dynamic!
    mircea_popescu Looky, you can't argue "I had a proof but I ated it".

    pankkake Is it on
    ThickAsThieves Any moment where it was <50% in Aug is not able to be displayed on that link.
    mircea_popescu That's unfortunate, but not novel. Unless tactm changed how bitcoincharts operates since the bet was made.

    ThickAsThieves is not, the court will argue.
    mircea_popescu would work actually.

    ThickAsThieves It did not archive that day, and the charts dont load. Proly due to them being dynamic.
    mircea_popescu I'd have been surprised if this thing was amenable to some sort of resolution ;/ Hey, do the graphs get constructed out of the request somehow ?

    ThickAsThieves Nope.
    mircea_popescu Alternatively, you could maybe bug tactm (the owner) to check.

    ThickAsThieves info at the site ? or does he IRC?
    mircea_popescu Well I don't see him on atm.


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2 Responses

  1. Mircea Popescu`s avatar
    Mircea Popescu 
    Thursday, 12 December 2013

    PS. "Confirmed total: 10,009 BTC" < BitBet just passed 10k in total bets.

  2. I guess I'll get this out of the way. The NCAA Football championship was won on Saturday by North Dakota State University over Towson in a playoff styled in a single elimination tournament format.

    The big schools including Alabama et al. instead play for the BCS National Championship which is the one where competitors are determined by polls (even though their play occurs under the governance of the NCAA).

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