Forum logs for 29 May 2019
| spyked: | good morning, #t! following up on the http://trilema.com/forum-logs-for-22-may-2019#2537067 thread: I've started reviewing hunchentoot, the first step would be to figure out which code base to use as a starting point from the genesis. | [04:38] |
| a111: | Logged on 2019-05-22 21:36 lobbes: http://www.thetarpit.org/posts/y05/090-tmsr-work-ii.html#selection-197.31-205.258 << I wager there's a good chance you'll publish a genesis of tbnl/hunchentoot before I eat through mod_lisp, but I agree: as pieces emerge, we can sync up, regrind as needed, etc. | [04:38] |
| spyked: | *for the genesis | [04:38] |
| spyked: | so far I've been looking at the project changelog and the patch history and the patches seem like a mixed bunch, with (perhaps) some useful things and breakage a la sslism. so before going further, I'd like to get some idea of what version of hunchentoot the lordship and the L2 are using | [04:41] |
| spyked: | in particular, I saw trinque, phf and ben_vulpes have been using it in the past, so I'd appreciate any input you have on the matter | [04:42] |
| spyked: | and I guess I'd prefer starting from code already battle-tested by L1 (in the form of a tarball + ksum?) rather than shithub, and turning _that_ into a genesis. although I suspect I'll have to dig deeper into the heathenpits of git commits anyway. | [04:47] |
| spyked: | http://btcbase.org/log/2019-05-22#1915245 <-- in other c coad, /me spent his last 2-3 weeks looking at the tcp stack implementation in linus' kernel. it is truly a fungus, macguyvered with duct tape and rubber bands, such that changing one line almost anywhere breaks shit all over the place. | [04:51] |
| a111: | Logged on 2019-05-22 21:36 lobbes: As it stands I have two full pages of hand-written notes with various c and apache-stack likbez, and that was just so I could understand up to line 152 of https://github.com/mbattyani/mod_lisp/blob/master/mod_lisp2.c (only 900 or so lines left to eat). I most likely will publish these notes as a blog post once all is said and done | [04:51] |
| spyked: | http://btcbase.org/log/2019-05-22#1915226 <-- indeedly so. | [04:54] |
| a111: | Logged on 2019-05-22 19:44 mp_en_viaje: spyked, some very sad http://trilema.com/2017/the-world-has-changed/ shit right there. | [04:54] |
| diana_coman: | by now I suspect most code out there is the fungus sort as that's how things "naturally grow" | [05:00] |
| spyked: | the weird part is that the linux tcp stack ~works~ for the most part. I imagine the maintainer of that particular subsystem must be a neckbeard with 20+y experience in tcp (because sure, it's not only the implementation, the protocol itself is a mountain of complexity) | [05:06] |
| spyked: | and then looking at e.g. https://elixir.bootlin.com/linux/v3.10/source/Documentation/CodingStyle , one can readily notice that half or maybe more of the tcp code doesn't meet that minimum set of criteria. and yet... it's there. so, I guess re. http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-15#1902966 he was prolly dumb from the very beginning | [05:12] |
| a111: | Logged on 2019-03-15 21:44 mircea_popescu: made slightly mroe interesting by it having been written before rather than after linus went dumb. | [05:12] |
| * spyked | bbl, cotton-bit-pickin | [05:22] |
| asciilifeform: | http://btcbase.org/log/2019-05-29#1916143 << [for some values of 'works'][https://archive.is/BPeGN] , lol. | [10:11] |
| a111: | Logged on 2019-05-29 09:06 spyked: the weird part is that the linux tcp stack ~works~ for the most part. I imagine the maintainer of that particular subsystem must be a neckbeard with 20+y experience in tcp (because sure, it's not only the implementation, the protocol itself is a mountain of complexity) | [10:11] |
| asciilifeform: | the usual megatonne-of-c-liquishit style of 'works'. | [10:11] |
| spyked: | asciilifeform, sure. it's surprising that it works "for some values" even, imho. to illustrate: http://archive.is/9Ssvh#selection-71637.0-71641.16 <-- saucerful of barf | [10:53] |
| asciilifeform: | spyked: not only is the implementation what it is, but tcp per se is massive pile o'shit, where it aint even possible to implement it w/out 9000 tonnes of state machine gnarl | [11:13] |
| asciilifeform: | i vaguely suspect that it may have been the original usg-'standards committee'-powered explicitly-organized nobus generator | [11:14] |
| asciilifeform: | the protocol is 'fractally retarded' -- i.e. broken on absolutely erry possible level. starting from where it takes exactly 1 trivially forged packet to close someone's connection, to where 'allcomers' get a substantial chunk of memory allocated , and make ddos trivial , to where it forces 9000x moar complicated design of routing gear, to... could continue but why. | [11:18] |
| asciilifeform: | see e.g. old thrd re subj . | [11:20] |
| a111: | Logged on 2016-08-26 13:34 asciilifeform: tcp is evil, fundamentally because it violates the 'NEVER something-for-nothing-to-all-comers-FUCKOFFRANDOS' principle. | [11:20] |
| asciilifeform: | ... and here and elsewhere. | [11:23] |
| a111: | Logged on 2017-03-14 14:31 asciilifeform: Framedragger: the problem with tcp isn't simply that enemy can insert an RST packet and make you blame your peer. (and whitelists do 0 against this.) but that it is very expensive , computationally, long before you have any idea who you're talking to. | [11:23] |
| asciilifeform: | tcp shows erry possible sign of having been designed, from the start, to extend the ease of snoopage from traditional circuit-switched telco grid, to the packet world. consider e.g. the 'helpfully' plaintext sequence numbers. | [11:27] |
| asciilifeform: | or how routers on erry hop of a connection are forced to maintain a 'circuit' state in memory, as if they were telco switches | [11:28] |
| BingoBoingo: | And routers on network borders need the entire BGP table in RAM | [11:37] |
| asciilifeform: | meanwhile, in alert readers, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2118&cpage=1#comment-19800 | [12:24] |
| BingoBoingo: | In other news, the Cafetera died. An autopsy will be performed. | [12:33] |
| asciilifeform: | BingoBoingo: wassat | [12:34] |
| BingoBoingo: | The coffee maker | [12:34] |
| asciilifeform: | a | [12:34] |
| BingoBoingo: | Replacement has been secured | [12:34] |
| BingoBoingo: | However I am curious how the cheapest model on the local market failed. | [12:35] |
| asciilifeform: | BingoBoingo: get a https://archive.is/UQmLg . cheap, and you'll never want 'machine coffee' after tasted from it. | [12:35] |
| BingoBoingo: | And failed at month 11 of the 1 year guarantee | [12:35] |
| asciilifeform: | + ~indestructible. | [12:35] |
| BingoBoingo: | I need coffee in volume. ~10 cups minimum | [12:36] |
| asciilifeform: | thing makes up in concentration what it loses in volume. | [12:36] |
| asciilifeform: | can even pack 1:1 volumetric like the turks themselves do. | [12:37] |
| BingoBoingo: | Sure, but that involves breaking a bunch of rather ingrained habits. | [12:38] |
| feedbot: | http://qntra.net/2019/05/huawei-document-deliveries-from-japan-via-fedex-routed-through-us-ieee-professional-association-cuts-ties-with-huawei-affiliated-persons-and-more/ << Qntra -- Huawei Document Deliveries From Japan Via Fedex Routed Through US, IEEE "Professional" Association Cuts Ties With Huawei Affiliated Persons, And More | [14:35] |
| asciilifeform: | BingoBoingo: s/owing/owning | [14:57] |
| BingoBoingo: | ty, fxd | [14:57] |
| BingoBoingo: | In other news, the flooding back home is approaching 1993 levels | [15:49] |
| feedbot: | http://qntra.net/2019/05/protonmail-caught-cooperating-with-law-enforcement/ << Qntra -- ProtonMail Caught Cooperating With "Law Enforcement" | [19:11] |
| mp_en_viaje: | http://btcbase.org/log/2019-05-29#1916138 << this incidentally is as fine a measure of code quality as could ever be hoped for : DLC, "disentangled lines count", the number of lines which can be changed. | [19:30] |
| a111: | Logged on 2019-05-29 08:51 spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-05-22#1915245 <-- in other c coad, /me spent his last 2-3 weeks looking at the tcp stack implementation in linus' kernel. it is truly a fungus, macguyvered with duct tape and rubber bands, such that changing one line almost anywhere breaks shit all over the place. | [19:30] |
| mp_en_viaje: | perhaps to be given as a ratio with loc, as 78/160k. | [19:31] |
| mp_en_viaje: | meaning in a 160k lines of code, 78 can actually be edited. | [19:31] |
| mp_en_viaje: | http://btcbase.org/log/2019-05-29#1916147 << you're doing the anchors backwards. | [19:34] |
| a111: | Logged on 2019-05-29 14:11 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-05-29#1916143 << [for some values of 'works'][https://archive.is/BPeGN] , lol. | [19:34] |
| mp_en_viaje: | http://btcbase.org/log/2019-05-29#1916158 << certainly persuasive. | [19:36] |
| a111: | Logged on 2019-05-29 15:27 asciilifeform: tcp shows erry possible sign of having been designed, from the start, to extend the ease of snoopage from traditional circuit-switched telco grid, to the packet world. consider e.g. the 'helpfully' plaintext sequence numbers. | [19:36] |
| mp_en_viaje: | being a common "private" email service recommended outside the republic > being a "private" email service commonly recommended outside the republic ? | [19:45] |
| mp_en_viaje: | weasiling > weaseling | [19:46] |
| BingoBoingo: | ty, fxd | [19:48] |
| BingoBoingo: | In wankers "nuclear capacity operating in advanced economies would decline by two-thirds by 2040, from about 280GW in 2018 down to just over 90GW in 2040" << If the capacity is declining, they aren't "advanced economies" unless "advanced" means Africanizing | [19:54] |
| mp_en_viaje: | get the fuck out of here. there will be 10 TW nuclear operational by 2040. | [20:02] |
| asciilifeform: | noshit. but in ru/cn, so 'doesn't exist' from reich muppet pov. | [20:02] |
| mp_en_viaje: | heh. | [20:03] |
| BingoBoingo: | mp_en_viaje: AHA, the catch is IEA doesn't count Russia, China, or India as "advanced economies" | [20:03] |
| mp_en_viaje: | they're also not counting my dick going down their throat. | [20:03] |
| asciilifeform: | http://btcbase.org/log/2019-05-29#1916184 << noticed almost immediately, lol, but ty | [20:04] |
| a111: | Logged on 2019-05-29 23:34 mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-05-29#1916147 << you're doing the anchors backwards. | [20:04] |
| mp_en_viaje: | whatever, next best use for tennessee is the "accidental" re-routing of spent nuclear fuel packages. | [20:04] |
| mp_en_viaje: | asciilifeform, it's not the first time! | [20:04] |
| asciilifeform: | http://btcbase.org/log/2019-05-29#1916180 << direct or inverse proportion ? in e.g. ffa, the # of 'can be changed an' still work' is ~0 | [20:04] |
| a111: | Logged on 2019-05-29 23:30 mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-05-29#1916138 << this incidentally is as fine a measure of code quality as could ever be hoped for : DLC, "disentangled lines count", the number of lines which can be changed. | [20:04] |
| mp_en_viaje: | asciilifeform, it will ~compile~ tho | [20:05] |
| asciilifeform: | often enuff, won't. sorta half the appeal of ada | [20:05] |
| asciilifeform: | broken proggy , more times than not , gets caught in compiler | [20:06] |
| mp_en_viaje: | how shall i formalize the idea here... | [20:06] |
| mp_en_viaje: | you familiar with this phenomenon when, when a change is required, good program needs 1 line touched and github program needs EVERY line touched ? | [20:08] |
| asciilifeform: | dijkstra's 'spaghetti' | [20:08] |
| mp_en_viaje: | right. that's what i mean re dlc | [20:08] |
| asciilifeform: | then sure. d called it 'structured programming' (i.e. the craft of ~not~ writing a proggy like this) | [20:09] |
| mp_en_viaje: | not sure how to formalize it, because obviously, "change" in general connotes hilary & her merry dnc | [20:10] |
| * asciilifeform | suspects that dijkstra would've enjoyed 'peh', where there aint even such a thing as a jump | [20:10] |
| asciilifeform: | http://btcbase.org/log/2019-05-29#1916188 << i find it riotously lulzy that anyone still can be found to fall for the 'seekrit email' flavour of scamola. srsly, wtf | [20:12] |
| a111: | Logged on 2019-05-29 23:45 mp_en_viaje: being a common "private" email service recommended outside the republic > being a "private" email service commonly recommended outside the republic ? | [20:12] |
| asciilifeform: | how the fuck do they get marketed..? 'OUR promisejuice is 9000x moar truthy than $rival's' ?! | [20:12] |
| mp_en_viaje: | experimentally, plentyone can still be found to fall for the "just the tip" flavour. | [20:13] |
| mp_en_viaje: | evercunt's everbusy. | [20:13] |
| asciilifeform: | still beggars belief. these imho are almost literally 'selling brooklyn bridge'. | [20:13] |
| asciilifeform: | standing next to the 'seekrit email' people, e.g. the 'herbal viagra' pushers look honest. (at least viagra actually exists) | [20:15] |
| asciilifeform: | and cock exists, and could, in principle, stand. whereas 'private email service' is a dry water, a square circle. | [20:15] |
| BingoBoingo: | Well, here's hwo herbal viagra works. They get some dry herbal and spray with with viagra then put in capsules. Sell as "herbal viagra" far more honest than the seekrit scamola | [20:16] |
| asciilifeform: | for instance. | [20:16] |
| BingoBoingo: | Still, the Herbal and the viagra are there. The seekrit email doesn't have seekrit, and the email part is doubtful | [20:39] |
| feedbot: | http://trilema.com/2019/the-clouds-that-threaten-domestic-bliss/ << Trilema -- The Clouds That Threaten Domestic Bliss | [21:16] |
Category: Logs
