Forum logs for 27 Dec 2016

Monday, 16 March, Year 12 d.Tr. | Author:
ben_vulpes: well i can't seem to get it to and now we have [00:07]
asciilifeform: http://trilema.com/forum-logs-for-26-dec-2016#2216750 << ftr i will say that i heavily disrecomment the use of this or anything like it [00:23]
a111: Logged on 2016-12-26 21:56 Framedragger: trinque: yes it's described in holy code form here: http://siphnos.mkj.lt/datadrop/crap-from-scans-to-be-sorted/phuctor-fp.py [00:23]
asciilifeform: the linked item was made for a specific, narrow purpose, for butterfly collection of pgp keys as-found-in-the-wild. [00:24]
asciilifeform: where two keys where 1 byte of the selfsigned text (e.g., username string) differs, are to be considered distinct [00:24]
asciilifeform: i see no particular reason to justify its use for anything else, and in particular for any future thing. [00:25]
asciilifeform: and there is NO and can NOT be such a thing as a 'sane key fingerprint.' see thread, http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-23#1572717 [00:26]
a111: Logged on 2016-11-23 16:18 asciilifeform: global indices of 'memorable' names, or 'safely' shortened rsa pubkeys, are promisetronic. [00:26]
asciilifeform: the only sane 'fingerprint' is the entire modulus+exponent. [00:27]
asciilifeform: anything else puts a megatonne of weight on one single hash, a titanic reward for finding one single solitary collision, hashes (which are voodoo, in all variants, see friday's thread) are not built to withstand this kind of pressure. [00:28]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-27#1590885 << from where did you think the awk in 'vdiff' came from. [00:28]
a111: Logged on 2016-12-27 04:47 ben_vulpes: have we done "sha512sum will not omit filenames from output" yet? [00:28]
asciilifeform: it is precisely to strip away the crapolade. [00:28]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-26#1590789 << where the hell did this go ? [00:30]
a111: Logged on 2016-12-26 18:54 deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/12/btc38-does-buterin-inspired-rollback-after-api-keys-compromised/ << Qntra - BTC38 Does Buterin Inspired "Rollback" After API Keys Compromised [00:30]
asciilifeform: it isn't there. [00:30]
asciilifeform: imho deedbot 'here's breaking news' followed by 404, is a fail [00:30]
asciilifeform: if it got retracted -- print retraction. [00:31]
asciilifeform: don't 'forbes' it. [00:31]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-26#1590744 << fwiw i did this for a living, for years. about as much joy as mining coal. [00:32]
a111: Logged on 2016-12-26 08:44 gabriel_laddel_p: 0.o http://www.gaussian.com/g_prod/gv5b.htm [00:32]
asciilifeform: with the difference that coal actually exists, whereas 'in silico screening' typically yields rubbish. [00:33]
mircea_popescu: gotta try eh. [00:36]
mircea_popescu: and in psycho news today, http://68.media.tumblr.com/968a20d479625db9f92f95f798431466/tumblr_odudrrpvSo1vf83ojo10_1280.jpg [00:37]
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: it was qntra'd [01:02]
ben_vulpes: er [01:02]
ben_vulpes: archived [01:02]
ben_vulpes: http://archive.is/Gl0Al [01:02]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: this does not answer the wtf question [01:04]
ben_vulpes: no, no [01:05]
ben_vulpes: in oooother lols, at least bing puts trilema on the first page of results when i search by article title [01:05]
ben_vulpes: at this rate the kids will actually stop using google, as it doesn't show porn, point them towards pirated content or you know actually work at all anymore [01:06]
mircea_popescu: google doesn't do this ?! [01:07]
mats: works for me [01:08]
mircea_popescu: !~google Slavery : the best thing for you. No, seriously. [01:08]
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: Slavery : the best thing for you . No, seriously . on Trilema - A blog by ...: <http://trilema.com/2014/slavery-the-best-thing-for-you-no-seriously/> [01:08]
ben_vulpes: !~google the problem of too much money [01:11]
jhvh1: ben_vulpes: The Problem of Too Much Money | Bplans: <http://articles.bplans.com/the-problem-of-too-much-money/> Why Too Much Money is Worse than Too Little | OPEN Forum: <http://www.openforum.com/articles/why-too-much-money-is-worse-than-too-little-1/> What problems tend to come out of having too much money ? - Quora: <https://www.quora.com/What-problems-tend-to-come-out-of-having-too-much-money> [01:11]
ben_vulpes: also https://www.google.com/search?q=the%20problem%20of%20too%20much%20money [01:12]
ben_vulpes: i feel a great disturbance in the force, as though a thousand seo experts were suddenly rousted from sweet slumber [01:13]
mircea_popescu: lol [01:19]
mircea_popescu: !~google "the problem of too much money" [01:19]
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: The Problem of Too Much Money | Bplans: <http://articles.bplans.com/the-problem-of-too-much-money/> Why Too Much Money is Worse than Too Little | OPEN Forum: <http://www.openforum.com/articles/why-too-much-money-is-worse-than-too-little-1/> What problems tend to come out of having too much money ? - Quora: <https://www.quora.com/What-problems-tend-to-come-out-of-having-too-much-mone [01:19]
mircea_popescu: wheird! [01:19]
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> if it got retracted -- print retraction. << Twas a dupe [01:20]
asciilifeform: hm ok [01:20]
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes i r guess in some cases trilema titles are too trite. [01:20]
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i have a bit of allergic reaction to seeing live articles turn to 404, i admit. [01:21]
BingoBoingo: http://qntra.net/2016/12/chinese-altcoin-exchange-btc38-serves-1-5-million-rmb-of-your-loss/ << Original. In processing mp's submission I got jumbled juggling text blocks, though dupe was an update on earlier shinohai story. [01:22]
BingoBoingo: I'll probably figure out a redirect [01:22]
ben_vulpes: "just install a plugin!" [01:28]
ben_vulpes: oh hey i don't think we did the auttomatic pr plant: http://www.forbes.com/sites/montymunford/2016/12/22/how-wordpress-ate-the-internet-in-2016-and-the-world-in-2017/ [01:30]
mircea_popescu: hahaah what. [01:36]
mircea_popescu: did it buy russia yet ? [01:42]
deedbot: http://cascadianhacker.com/how-to-learn-programming << CH - "How To Learn Programming" [03:31]
Framedragger: ben_vulpes: http://cascadianhacker.com/how-to-learn-programming/comment-page-1#comment-95 [06:32]
Framedragger: s/which can/who can/ but w/e [06:34]
Framedragger: it seems that tor main folx were banned from presenting at CCC this year (it's tradition that they normally do it every year), allegedly due to the appelbaum debacle.. [06:46]
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-27#1590857 << i guess so. i also guess that gns/gossipd are competing paradigms in terms of namespace / choosing how to name things. but they can also be orthogonal, i'd think.. [06:47]
a111: Logged on 2016-12-27 01:44 mircea_popescu: Framedragger you're going towards the republican dns / unified name registry thing [06:47]
mircea_popescu: hardly competing. just because item b depending on item a for part of its job may end up having to implement a doesn't mean b competes with a. [08:16]
mircea_popescu: i suppose in a forgotten sense this is actually what "competing" means walk is "leg competitive" in the sense that the movement of one drags/forces/impels the movement of the other tissue growth is competitive in the sense that conjunctive growth drives medular growth and medular growth drives conjunctive growth the very chinese (these days) "barracks area B planted roses, can we from barracks area C allow ourselves to [08:50]
mircea_popescu: fall behind them" version of mutual driving would historically be what competition meant. this mutual-inhibition style of competition where "we all try kissing girls when we're 7, then those who don't manage having been outcompeted by those who did manage retire to kiss playstations" is novel. [08:50]
mircea_popescu: hence why it's even fucking called "competition", from latin for "to strive together", competere. same com as in commune. [08:52]
mircea_popescu: o wow look at this, etymolone.com has it! "Rare 17c., revived from late 18c. in sense "to strive (alongside another) for the attainment of something" and regarded early 19c. in Britain as a Scottish or American word. Market sense is from 1840s (perhaps a back-formation from competition) athletics sense attested by 1857." is exactly correct for once. [08:53]
* mircea_popescu is impressed positively in a good way. [08:54]
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/F30A4781829EA11A88B47D270FB5A09CD0E322A9A0B1468234CD8F9A70B658C5 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 2167...4427 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '212.23.91.197 (ssh-rsa key from 212.23.91.197 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt> ' (office.render.ur.ru. RU SVE) [08:58]
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes which one is a "modal" ? "carousel" is that stupid shit when pics keep scrolling like a 2.0 version of <marquee> right [09:16]
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: noted, re. notion of 'competition'. [09:45]
mircea_popescu: speaking of which, i've had trilema changed so that it publishes a "random" header each day out of my apparently extensive collection of 32! different ones. [09:45]
mircea_popescu: works on the basis of decimal(hash(date string)) mod banner count. [09:45]
jurov: calc 32! [09:46]
jurov: :) [09:47]
mircea_popescu: lol [09:47]
mircea_popescu: anyway, i think it's poetic, like a month that keeps increasing in day count as i add more pictures. a sort of bizarre astronomy of a planet that slowly distances itself from the sun thereby decelerating and thereby more and more earth days are needed to complete its monthly cycle. [09:50]
mircea_popescu: currently, trilema month stands at 32 days, and there's 11.40 of them / year [09:50]
mircea_popescu: https://archive.is/ARvk3 << in other lulz,. apparently i broke it. [10:09]
asciilifeform: in other lulz, http://www.openwall.com/lists/oss-security/2016/12/27/2 [10:15]
Framedragger: IV length unchecked when allocating memory for IV, amazing....... [10:17]
mircea_popescu: it's amaaaaazing [10:17]
mircea_popescu: when in the blink of an eye you suddenly know it's fucked [10:17]
mircea_popescu: it's amaaaaazing [10:17]
mircea_popescu: and i'm saying a prayer [10:17]
mircea_popescu: for the desperate hearts [10:17]
mircea_popescu: tooooonight! [10:17]
mircea_popescu: why does "Apparently this issue is fixed on pycrypto's development branch with commit 8dbe0dc3eea5c689d4f76b37b93fe216cf1f00d4, but this change can't be applied directly to the latest pycrypto release tarball too much has changed." not read "we should have fucking written it all in v last year" is anyone's guess. [10:19]
asciilifeform: why the livingfuck is there even c in 'pycrypto'..?! [10:19]
Framedragger: there are some reasons for it i suppose? avoid timing side channels etc [10:19]
Framedragger: (branch prediction side channels etc, dunno how feasible in the context of application using pycrypto..) [10:20]
asciilifeform: eh you can 'don't return until M msec passed' can be done even in a scripting lang [10:20]
Framedragger: (also effffffficiency) [10:21]
mircea_popescu: i don't think alf understands how the world works. [10:21]
Framedragger: aha, but you assume that python timers are anything but inaccurate :p (but yesyes..) [10:21]
mircea_popescu: nobody fucking wants to REPLACE anything. they're just building an open society where everything can live side by side blind to any considerations of identity or heritage. [10:21]
asciilifeform: Framedragger: you round to whatever unit it is accurate to. minutes, hours, weeks, watever [10:22]
mircea_popescu: OF COURSE there's going to be c code in python, what, are you racist ? [10:22]
mircea_popescu: the legacy bdb is still in trb TO THIS DAY [10:22]
Framedragger: asciilifeform: right, right [10:22]
mircea_popescu: meanwhile back at disrupt camp hackathon, http://68.media.tumblr.com/2ccf69e8583719c685f52d6405feaaf8/tumblr_mu768n3kfb1sz40t4o1_1280.jpg [10:23]
asciilifeform: speaking of timing attack: it also worx great on oaep and all similar (hashtronic) rsa 'padding' systems... [10:30]
mircea_popescu: incidentally, there must also be a "timing" attack that relies not on time but on properties of integers. and no i don't mean birthday attack - if your hashing is an arithmetic process then necessarily the fundamental fact that "primes count is log integers count" in some sort of restatement is going to bite you somewhere. [10:31]
mircea_popescu: at least in my head this is the deep reason alf's hatred of arithmetic transfgorms makes sense to me. [10:32]
mircea_popescu: (and no, the above truth isn't "about primes" anymore than the golden section is "about a4 paper".) [10:32]
asciilifeform: it is not about primes at all, aha, but about the ancient proverb where 'you can't hide an awl in a sack' [11:00]
mircea_popescu: aha. [11:01]
mircea_popescu: sooner or later the teeth show. [11:01]
BingoBoingo: Redirect never took, post restored with text in <blockquote> tags [11:14]
mircea_popescu: hm pretty sure there must be an option for redirects somewhere. [11:16]
Framedragger: there's a wp plugin but maybe policy against such works of satan [11:16]
BingoBoingo: Plugins that demand access to htaccess are a no-no [11:17]
BingoBoingo: but otherwise wordpress fights redirect and drops 404 page [11:18]
Framedragger: i don't know if redirection plugin does that. if you mean that a plugin would add a new line to htaccess then yeah that's retarded. don't think that's how it works [11:18]
BingoBoingo: Framedragger: You would be amazed what plugins want. [11:20]
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-27#1590973 << hah, pycrypto is ~all~ c. python has this ffi mechanism, where import can work on an .so and there are standard hooks for registering/providing python object equivalents from your c code. in this case i don't think there's a single python line in pycrypto at all [11:21]
a111: Logged on 2016-12-27 15:19 asciilifeform: why the livingfuck is there even c in 'pycrypto'..?! [11:21]
Framedragger: BingoBoingo https://wordpress.org/plugins/simple-301-redirects/ << iirc what we use at work [11:21]
* BingoBoingo might look, but assumes when it says 301 redirect it means actual apache 301 [11:22]
Framedragger: no doesn't use htaccess just checked [11:22]
Framedragger: stores redirects in wp db [11:22]
Framedragger: not saying that it's amazing or anything, wp eww [11:22]
phf: ~proper~ ffi in a form of ctypes and "(we exist in own bubble!1) CFFI" has only been added really recently. maybe 5-10 years [11:23]
Framedragger: BingoBoingo: it's a single php file, relatively elegant i'd say. the logic is in redirect() (line 212 on v1.07 of plugin) if you want to verify lack of satan. seems ~relatively harmless but i no wp plugin masta [11:25]
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/F30A4781829EA11A88B47D270FB5A09CD0E322A9A0B1468234CD8F9A70B658C5 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1448...3223 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '212.23.91.197 (ssh-rsa key from 212.23.91.197 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt> ' (office.render.ur.ru. RU SVE) [11:25]
Framedragger: phf: given this, would you even say that what pycrypto does is evil, i wonder.. i mean if it uses ctypes ~properly [11:26]
phf: i wouldn't say it's evil nor not evil [11:31]
phf: just to clarify it doesn't use ctypes, it's using the old https://docs.python.org/2/extending/extending.html api. which i suspect is faster, since you're constructing python objects immediately, rather than across the ffi boundry the way ctypes/CFFI would have to naturally do it [11:32]
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-27#1590975 << i know pycrypto sits on the wire in some of the twisted code, so side channel attacks are definite possibility. (however realistic they are in the wild) [11:34]
a111: Logged on 2016-12-27 15:20 Framedragger: (branch prediction side channels etc, dunno how feasible in the context of application using pycrypto..) [11:34]
Framedragger: ah, i see kk re. ctypes vs the older interface.. [11:35]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform do you happen to have link to original discussion of older us male who goes to orcland under delusion of being roman army veteran, gets used as cattle by locals ? [11:36]
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-27#1590876 << i suspect that ironclad is still one of the better platforms to audit and integrate into own ecosystem. short of waiting for p what other options do you have? ffi to openssl? the code is readable, in the past year munchkins have been adding various algos to it, so you know what to cut, but also gives you a nice blueprint of how to extend etc. [11:39]
a111: Logged on 2016-12-27 03:51 ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-26#1590731 << i think maybe back away slowly from ironclad lest it blow up in my face then [11:39]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2014-12-10#949583 << not quite it, but the only mention i turned up in the l0gz [11:40]
a111: Logged on 2014-12-10 00:51 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu had an article (or perhaps a thread here? but can't seem to find it...) about an archetypical u.s. expat. fellow keeps a pub somewhere in thailand, or cambodia, etc. the locals - drink for free. he fancies that if he begins to run out of dough, he can always start charging. but somehow in the back of his head he knows what will happen to his sorry arse if he were to do so. [11:40]
mircea_popescu: yeah that. [11:40]
mircea_popescu: well, good enough, i'll use it. [11:40]
mircea_popescu: fancy we're at the sad stage of decay where i am going to use a vague memory of another as to something i myself said as a reference point. [11:41]
mircea_popescu: strabo never had it this good. [11:41]
BingoBoingo: !~bash 3 [11:45]
jhvh1: Last 3 lines bashed and pending publication [11:45]
mircea_popescu: and in other well behaved party girls, http://68.media.tumblr.com/79ac8c9145897f1d57cd64858a723b0e/tumblr_odf7sfDuCf1qa7pxgo1_400.gif [11:52]
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2016/handled-badly/ << Trilema - Handled badly. [12:03]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-27#1591017 << since theme of the day appears to be sidechanneling, commonlisptrons lacking a separate cons pool for crypto ops, noncacheability hints, etc. are ripe for the treatment [12:11]
a111: Logged on 2016-12-27 16:39 phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-27#1590876 << i suspect that ironclad is still one of the better platforms to audit and integrate into own ecosystem. short of waiting for p what other options do you have? ffi to openssl? the code is readable, in the past year munchkins have been adding various algos to it, so you know what to cut, but also gives you a nice blueprint of how to extend etc. [12:11]
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes pray tell why do you recommed unity in favour of eulora ? eulora bots exist as a matter of fact, with people hacking on them and repl-ing the results after a 10 minute compile. what equivalent to this does unity offer ? [12:13]
mircea_popescu: and plox do not tell me "i just assumed it does because it is the usg.this-thing and i automatically assume the usg.this-thing in all cases and for all things offers".) [12:13]
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-27#1591029 << that's already been mentioned in the blog post i linked you [12:16]
a111: Logged on 2016-12-27 17:11 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-27#1591017 << since theme of the day appears to be sidechanneling, commonlisptrons lacking a separate cons pool for crypto ops, noncacheability hints, etc. are ripe for the treatment [12:16]
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: no repl but it's very easy to get things going in unity. though i found it to be clunky in the sense of not being able to contain simple project in one's head, as you have to look at parameters around the IDE/project as well as source code (parts of which are 'attached' to objects). but it's very usable. [12:18]
mircea_popescu: did you just say "it doesn't work but it's the usg.offer for the space and therefore it must be respected" ? [12:18]
* Framedragger will try eulora botting one day [12:18]
mircea_popescu: "meanwhile actual life can wait on the shelf forever" [12:19]
Framedragger: you can build complex shit fast there. that's a thing. [12:19]
mircea_popescu: show me. [12:19]
Framedragger: fuck [12:19]
Framedragger: i'll link to tutorials i went thru in a sec [12:19]
mircea_popescu: you can't EVEN GET IT RUNNING today. forget build anything. [12:19]
Framedragger: really [12:20]
Framedragger: http://catlikecoding.com/unity/tutorials/ << some nice shit. granted, not the same as me showing something impressive [12:20]
Framedragger: (not really complex, tho. but you get moving *fast*) [12:21]
Framedragger: unless latest unity is really broken and all-too-usg, in which case, okay :( [12:21]
mircea_popescu: srsly, compare to eg danielpbarron 's implementing of the "drunk" method. http://danielpbarron.com/2016/the-drunken-explorer/ [12:22]
mircea_popescu: every method can in principle be *fast* from a certain perspective, horseback travel is blazing cca 1100. but for making a clock appled my time budget does not exceed a quarter hour nor am i willing to do much more than A COUPLA LINES! [12:23]
mircea_popescu: wtf srsly, THIS looks acceptable to you ? [12:24]
mircea_popescu: using UnityEngine [12:24]
mircea_popescu: using System [12:24]
mircea_popescu: public class ClockAnimator : MonoBehaviour { [12:24]
mircea_popescu: private const float [12:24]
mircea_popescu: hoursToDegrees = 360f / 12f, [12:24]
mircea_popescu: minutesToDegrees = 360f / 60f, [12:24]
mircea_popescu: secondsToDegrees = 360f / 60f [12:24]
mircea_popescu: public Transform hours, minutes, seconds [12:24]
mircea_popescu: public bool analog [12:24]
mircea_popescu: private void Update () { [12:24]
mircea_popescu: if (analog) { [12:24]
mircea_popescu: TimeSpan timespan = DateTime.Now.TimeOfDay [12:24]
mircea_popescu: hours.localRotation = Quaternion.Euler( [12:24]
mircea_popescu: 0f, 0f, (float)timespan.TotalHours * -hoursToDegrees) [12:25]
mircea_popescu: minutes.localRotation = Quaternion.Euler( [12:25]
mircea_popescu: 0f, 0f, (float)timespan.TotalMinutes * -minutesToDegrees) [12:25]
mircea_popescu: seconds.localRotation = Quaternion.Euler( [12:25]
mircea_popescu: 0f, 0f, (float)timespan.TotalSeconds * -secondsToDegrees) [12:25]
mircea_popescu: } [12:25]
mircea_popescu: else { [12:25]
mircea_popescu: DateTime time = DateTime.Now [12:25]
asciilifeform: my barf bag! overfloathes! [12:25]
Framedragger: what don't you like about this bunch of stuff you posted? :) [12:25]
mircea_popescu: hours.localRotation = [12:25]
mircea_popescu: Quaternion.Euler(0f, 0f, time.Hour * -hoursToDegrees) [12:25]
mircea_popescu: minutes.localRotation = [12:25]
mircea_popescu: Quaternion.Euler(0f, 0f, time.Minute * -minutesToDegrees) [12:25]
mircea_popescu: seconds.localRotation = [12:25]
mircea_popescu: Quaternion.Euler(0f, 0f, time.Second * -secondsToDegrees) [12:25]
* asciilifeform off to swap gas mask canister, barf cylinder,.. [12:25]
mircea_popescu: } [12:25]
mircea_popescu: } [12:25]
mircea_popescu: } [12:25]
mircea_popescu: apologies to the participants, but this fucking belongs in here. THIS IS NOT CODE. [12:25]
mircea_popescu: this is gargle. [12:25]
mircea_popescu: oh dear god. [12:25]
Framedragger: it's code alright. [12:25]
mircea_popescu: i'm going to go break things now. [12:26]
Framedragger: tell me that at least it's not the syntax that you hate. [12:26]
Framedragger: if it is, wtfbbq [12:26]
* asciilifeform flashbacks to sentence served in java butugychag decade ago [12:26]
* Framedragger unfortunately has to run, which has the side effect of delaying wrath inflicted by mp [12:26]
phf: suggesting unity to republic is setting yourself up for abuse. [12:26]
asciilifeform: dafuq is 'unity' [12:26]
Framedragger: wtf people, yes java / c# syntax is not great, but srsly now. your aesthetic sensitivities [12:26]
phf: Framedragger: it's not about syntax [12:27]
Framedragger: ok at least there's that [12:27]
phf: the thing is promistronic to the max [12:27]
Framedragger: it's a fucking clock. [12:27]
Framedragger: oh god i hear mircea_popescu's mind-cpu resetting :( [12:28]
phf: you ~script~ it in C#, by knowing just the right combination of widgets available out of a large collection of widget classes. [12:28]
Framedragger: bbl, will try to respond then [12:28]
mircea_popescu: i suppose he has a point - and if you're trying to make one of those clock walls, you'll just you know, paste down the code three or five or n times with various offsets on the TimeSpan timespan = DateTime.Now.TimeOfDay plus should one of the clocks have to go backwards you'll paste the code once more but put a minus somewhere (which maintenance will take off because automated bounds checking indicated they should - and befo [12:30]
mircea_popescu: re you know it you reimplemented openssh in blockchain technology). [12:30]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: java slaves actually use specially-made editors that 'automate' this atrocity [12:30]
asciilifeform: producing 1001 mutated pastes of $crapolade every day [12:30]
mircea_popescu: at some point someone recounted me an anecdote about the indian minded programmers using like a dozen empty for loops in lieu of sleep and then when one was hired to optimize the code he did a nested for loop, the inner being one of the previous and the outer equal to their count. [12:31]
mircea_popescu: reduced like 100 loc! [12:31]
asciilifeform: then when (horror) it is time to ~read~ it, they use specially-made 'program analysis' tools to make wall-sized chart... [12:31]
phf: Framedragger: i'm not saying it's good or bad, my original point stands though ~suggesting it to republic is setting yourself up for abuse~ and you can know why ahead of time [12:31]
mircea_popescu: and they honestly imagine THAT is what people use emacs for, also. [12:31]
diana_coman: Framedragger, it's not the syntax, it's the whole "approach" though if you find *that* acceptable, I guess you'll find planeshift code just as acceptable with all its 20-level dependency hell, mix-and-match mess of concepts (hey, what IS a concept anyway and what do you mean there is something other than interface anyway) [12:32]
mircea_popescu: phf yes of course it's not good or bad, "all turing machines are equivalent let's malbolge nao" [12:32]
mircea_popescu: it's very bad not because of the computer, which nobody fucking cares, but because it stupids your head. [12:32]
diana_coman: in other words, mircea_popescu, it is "accessible" and "easy to get things going" - in all the wrong directions, of course, but nobody mentioned anything about direction now, did they [12:35]
mircea_popescu: i dunno, how the fuck am i to come up with "DateTime.Now.TimeOfDay" ? [12:36]
mircea_popescu: there's a problem with these "obvious" things that are only ever obvious in retrospect. [12:36]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: naturally by hitting ctrl-spacebar after each vague guess, and reading off the suggested menu crapolade, 'hmm... datesomethingorother...ctrlspace..now...nowwhat...ctrlspace!!1111!111ctrlspace' [12:37]
mircea_popescu: and no, it's not syntax. if it were, " minutesToDegrees" would be AngleMeasure.Variable.MinutesToDegrees [12:37]
mircea_popescu: but it isn't. because the scheme's batshit insane. [12:37]
diana_coman: getting things going is seen as "copy/paste stuff really, no need to come up with anything there [12:37]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: when you read soup that makes 0 sense to unarmed eyes, the chances are that: it WAS NOT WRITTEN BY HUMAN HAND [12:37]
asciilifeform: but by autoshitter [12:37]
asciilifeform: under the vague, limp handholding of 'human' 'programmer' [12:37]
mircea_popescu: i suspect this was built by autoshitter emulated on human head. [12:37]
diana_coman: there is no scheme and no notion of scheme, because only interface and you know a bit country style: what do you mean you don't know how to get to X? EVERYBODY knows [12:38]
asciilifeform: nah see head has very little input into the process. [12:38]
asciilifeform: about same as mcdonalds employee has input to the deep fryer machine. [12:38]
asciilifeform: he turns it on, off, that's mostly it. [12:38]
trinque: someday they'll hook TAB directly into stack overflow [12:38]
asciilifeform: trinque: betcha ben_vulpes's 'xcode', or perhaps the latest microshit studio, does this. [12:38]
jurov: poor ben_vulpes, imo he meant the article for completely different demographic than present fine society. almost everyone i know began with barfalicious basic or turbopascal [12:39]
mircea_popescu: i began with basic it does not have this crap. [12:40]
mircea_popescu: i daresay a goto-ridden program is saner than this. [12:40]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: basic fit-in-head [12:40]
asciilifeform: and not only the language [12:40]
asciilifeform: but the implementation. [12:40]
mircea_popescu: it also fit on kbd. it was ALPHABETIC [12:40]
mircea_popescu: you can't beat this. [12:40]
trinque: jump is at least something the machine itself *does* [12:40]
mircea_popescu: inkey$ motherfuckers. [12:40]
asciilifeform: http://www.pagetable.com/docs/M6502.MAC.txt << the infamous microshit (yes, that one) 6502 basic. [12:41]
mircea_popescu: diana_coman i guess the rurality point is actually very apt. just because the monkeys got force-moved to urban "developments" doesn't mean they're not still retarded. [12:42]
mircea_popescu: holy shit "Quaternion.Euler" is a full blown core function. and wait, there's more : http://answers.unity3d.com/questions/765683/when-to-use-quaternion-vs-euler-angles.html [12:44]
phf: mircea_popescu: that's not what i meant. there are others here who talk about good or bad, where's i don't care, because the cause and effect there is so far removed from where i'm standing i can only look at it in entomological terms [12:45]
mircea_popescu: i can see it. [12:45]
asciilifeform: http://www.retro.co.za/ccc/apple2/paulrsm/6502/INTLST.TXT << woz's much more compact (4kB) float-less basic. [12:45]
asciilifeform: for comparison. [12:45]
phf: at some point you had engines, and if you wanted to license an engine you got the whole thing, source and ~technological~ notes. later engines started getting in-house nooks and crannies so that your wizard team of mainloop development can focus on squeezing extra couple of ms for a cycle, while your lesser mortals can write the scenario logic etc. there was a reasonable sweet spot there like Aurora or Gamebryo where if you wanted to [12:46]
phf: license it you'd get source, technotes and some scripting thing. at some point somebody discovered that if you have enough of "some scripting thing", you can keep the engine closed source, thus creating a market of unity/unrealengine/etc. [12:46]
asciilifeform: the key here, for n00bz, is that there is literally not 1 byte in there that does not have 1) a specific purpose, 2) that you can discern from looking at the cpu docs -- which fit on 1 a4 sheet of paper. [12:46]
mircea_popescu: phf i fear the matter was more in the vein of "mcdonalds has hieroglyphic rather than numeric cash reigsters because it uses monkeys not people to operate them" [12:48]
mircea_popescu: and the whole thing relies on a certain blindness of "why is the tomato green on your cash register but blue in my plate and shouldn't tomatoes be red to begin with" which is the very bread and butter of both "mit is the premier science and technology institution at the world series" as well as "thank you for your leadership we will conqueliberate mosul in two weeks three years ago. or four." [12:49]
phf: well, yes, but mcdonalds is not the best analogy. it's commodification. "buy this thing that all the pros use and be just like a pro! comes with EASY TO USE controls!" [12:50]
mircea_popescu: if the average programmer were literate as opposed to marginally qualified clucker, a) configuration wouldn't be confused with programming and b) vice-versa either. [12:54]
mircea_popescu: for that matter, "ai" wouldn't be confused with a large bank of switches. [12:54]
asciilifeform: the deskilling was not performed ~by~ programmers. [12:54]
mircea_popescu: yes, it was. [12:54]
phf: right, in a sense that "pros" are as much of an illusion [12:55]
asciilifeform: any more than the hieroglyphs on the mcdonalds registers were placed there by the cooks. [12:55]
mircea_popescu: but they were. [12:55]
asciilifeform: and what else, chickens build chicken farms / [12:55]
asciilifeform: ? [12:55]
mircea_popescu: in the sense here contemplated, yes, they did. [12:55]
mircea_popescu: what, you think it's the fox's option as to whether to chase the chicken ? [12:55]
mircea_popescu: the fox chases the chicken because the chicken, not because the fox. [12:56]
phf: gosling knew what he was doing when he designed java, said so himself. [12:56]
* mircea_popescu is vaguely unfamiliar, is there a link ? [12:57]
phf: at this point probably apocryphal, but i'll try to find the origin [12:57]
asciilifeform: gosling gets the blame, but there were quislings, e.g., steele, see also http://people.csail.mit.edu/gregs/ll1-discuss-archive-html/msg04045.html [13:01]
asciilifeform: 'And you're right: we were not out to win over the Lisp programmers we were after the C++ programmers. We managed to drag a lot of them about halfway to Lisp. Aren't you happy?' -- steele (yes, that one, of CLTL!) [13:01]
phf: there was an interview where he says that the design goal was to make the managers happy by making teams replaceable. widget driven development, where each widget is isolated from each other [13:06]
asciilifeform: aka deskilling. [13:07]
phf: at some point you could easily find small collections of early gosling quotes, which are really quite harsh and were liberally in anti-java arguments, but now i can't find any :o [13:09]
mircea_popescu: dude. quaternions. DO YOU UNDERSTAND ME OMFG i'm hyperventilating over here. to quote their fucking manual, "Quaternions have some advantages when it comes to gimbal lock and smooth interpolation. Their main downside is that they rely on advanced math -- math that even experienced developers often find difficult and confusing. [...] People very rarely interact with quaternions directly. As it turns out, it's almost always eas [13:09]
mircea_popescu: ier to manipulate them using other representations [...] I recommend using quaternion variables [...]" [13:09]
phf: :D [13:10]
mircea_popescu: do you understand this Framedragger ? there is a ~COST~ to this "getting going fast", and that cost is - you give up ON UNDERSTANDING WHAT THE FUCK YOU'RE DOING! [13:10]
mircea_popescu: how the fuck it's not exactly the mcdonalds hieroglyphic cash register is anyone's guess. [13:11]
mircea_popescu: these people can't find a simple limit in their head and yet fucking vectors are no good for them anymore. [13:11]
mircea_popescu: with any luck there's a Heisenberg.ToSchroedinger first class function implemented in this unity thing and it runs permanently in the background. [13:12]
phf: you don't understand, that's just code bro machismo speaking. we must make programming easier and more accessible, so that even kids in uganda can produce AAA award winning games! [13:12]
mircea_popescu: meanwhile the last time anyone produced a game the wtc was still standing. [13:13]
mircea_popescu: oh, hey, I KNEW this was gonna be in there. a) "I recommend using quaternion variables to represent two things: an object's rotation, and/or a rotation which you'd like to apply to some object." b) "You cannot represent rotations of greater than 180 degrees with Quaternions, and when doing a Slerp() or MoveTowards() rotation with Quaternions, the rotation always take the shortest path. So if you need to rotate more than 180 [13:18]
mircea_popescu: degrees, often EulerAngles are a better choice." [13:18]
mircea_popescu: and of course b is in the fine print and of course this just became a fine example of the discussion itself. [13:18]
mircea_popescu: now the fucking code "that's easy to get up" will have to contain a pi radian check because otherwise clocks may be going backwards. [13:19]
mircea_popescu: and the ~only way~ innocent grasshopper could even know about this is if graybeard can be arsed to go through these motions - which you couldn't pay me to do as a regular thing. [13:19]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480721 << see also thread. [13:22]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 21:33 asciilifeform: for absolutely nothing, esp. if you can offload the cost of your turd being pwned weekly, needing 16GB of ram, crashing daily, etc. on OTHER PEOPLE [13:22]
asciilifeform: or for that matter asciilifeform's ~entire www. [13:22]
asciilifeform: is re subj. [13:22]
phf: there's a gamedev coworking in philly, the space is primarily rented by some team that had a handful of successful releases in appstore. naturally games written in unity. they can't rent by themselves, but as a minor celebrity (game featured on appstore frontpage for a whole two weeks!1) they can share rent with a handful of other 1-2 people teams. i went there once before finding all this out, because was expecting a scene squat. after [13:24]
phf: discussing the moon phases of successful appstore game releases with their shamans, i spent about an hour shoulder surfing one of the "main devs". guy was trying to get a texture to render without artifacts (ultimately it's a texture mapped to a surface in opengl and if you don't want the opengl's scaling to kick in you have to get the size just right), and literally everything that he was saying was in terms of "i read this one [13:24]
phf: tutorial and the say you need to enable FooSwitch in BarOptions, but this other tutorial says you need to use PNG, etc. [13:24]
asciilifeform: ( http://www.loper-os.org/?p=498&cpage=1#comment-1812 in particular. ) [13:25]
asciilifeform: ' ... and if you don't want the opengl's scaling to kick in you have to get the size just right ' << abstractions ftw! gabrielladdel forward and onward ! [13:26]
asciilifeform: and wtf is a 'coworking space' [13:26]
phf: it's active ~disempowerment~, because opengl is already a tricky state machine, but they are trying to manipulate it by controlling a puppet that's using chopstick to toggle switches on a pdp-10 that has effects on the environment state. i'm sure ~if you don't need unity~ you can filter out all the noise, but good luck if that's your first exposure to 3d [13:27]
asciilifeform: is that where folx who don't ~have~ to drag their arses to an office daily, do anyway, like that fired japanese d00d from earlier thread...? [13:27]
asciilifeform: phf: this is probably why, at least in asciilifeform's experience, folx whose first experience programming happened on winblowz or wwwtron, are ~incurable [13:28]
trinque: it's where you hax killer apps with other up and coming unicorn startup CEOs [13:28]
phf: asciilifeform: yes! "i get lonely working from home" [13:28]
asciilifeform: l0l!!! [13:28]
asciilifeform: why, poor ants, did they have to leave the anthill. [13:28]
asciilifeform: room enough inside for all of'em. [13:28]
mircea_popescu: what is shoulder surfing ? [13:29]
asciilifeform: americanism, refers to peeking at somebody's screen [13:29]
mircea_popescu: aok [13:29]
mircea_popescu: coworking space is harem without master or tits. also known as refuse pit. [13:30]
asciilifeform: бомжатник [13:30]
asciilifeform: (orlol translates this as 'bum garden. what's yer problem, it's just as much a 'garden' as an office park is a 'park' !' [13:30]
asciilifeform: ) [13:30]
phf: well, it's very close in spirit and substance to that warehouse that burned down [13:30]
mircea_popescu: heh [13:31]
asciilifeform: harem without master or tits << oblig >> 'Со-солнечный зайчик, Зайчик ничей. Зайчик без хвостика, Зайчик без ушей. ... Щёлкал зубами Солнечный волк. Только вот зайчика Он поймать не смог.' (tm) (r) [13:32]
mircea_popescu: "this is the painting of a knife without a handle that's missing the blade." [13:33]
* asciilifeform just realized that he has nfi what a 'солнечный зайчик' is called in english [13:33]
phf: well, these "without master" conversation always remind me of the conversations i have with uber drivers. "i'm my own boss, ese, can work whenever i want -- yeah, man, that's great, now turn left here" [13:34]
asciilifeform: (it ain't a hare, the kind in the woods, but a beam of sunlight a kid throws around with something shiny, for amusement) [13:34]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-27#1591202 << i have NO FUCKING IDEA why technical monkeys would wish to misrepresent themselves with this ceo business. being a ceo is entirely orthogonal on what they do, it's like a car mechanic claiming he's a fuel chemist. no good can possibly come of this. [13:39]
a111: Logged on 2016-12-27 18:28 trinque: it's where you hax killer apps with other up and coming unicorn startup CEOs [13:39]
asciilifeform: http://www.rebol.com/article/0497.html << in pertinent but vintage lulz. [13:39]
asciilifeform: 'Sorry, not going to do it. I know I'm going to hear comments from you: "it's no problem, just do it, works great, it's how it's done nowadays, the standard of practice, everyone does it, you're old fashioned, ignore the overhead, memory is cheap, blah blah blah." Sorry: no. No! This is software complexity pollution. You need one little thing, but then it requires another, and another, and before long you're installing (and maintaini [13:39]
asciilifeform: ng) a half dozen different subsystems. It's a complexity snowball.' [13:39]
trinque: mircea_popescu: same reason central african presidents are always "doctor", aside "president" [13:39]
mircea_popescu: you know ? [13:40]
asciilifeform: in other lulz, some d00d is carefully, slowly crawling phuctor using ~dozen linode boxes (why the effort! why not write in, get a copy of the db, like normal people) [13:40]
mircea_popescu: "i'm a dancer-poet slash cook-plumber" [13:41]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the distance people will run to avoid wot, you know ? [13:41]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: recall your article on one michael church ? [13:42]
mircea_popescu: i do. [13:42]
asciilifeform: american 'ceo' frittered away 'mandate of heaven', just as african 'doctor' is the same monkey but with four story mansion instead of 1-story cement hut, but no detectable additional curative power, vs other monkey [13:42]
asciilifeform: american ceo is same street monkey but with added jet propulsion, as american street scum, and this is impossible to hide from the latter [13:43]
asciilifeform: like the proverbial awl in a sack. [13:43]
mircea_popescu: i suppose the issue occurs on the slippery slope of "executive", as in seinfeld. [13:43]
mircea_popescu: (fun fact : poor man's fixed menus in this country are called "menu ejecutivo".) [13:43]
asciilifeform: homo redditicus could not stand in for, e.g., john rockefeller, for five minutes, but ~could~ stand in for fiorina. and he knows it. [13:43]
BingoBoingo: http://www.jameslafond.com/article.php?id=6049 << More car hell [13:44]
mod6: hai [14:20]
trinque: mod6: mind your step while I hose Unity's blood and piss out of the room. [14:22]
mod6: Take your time, Sir. [14:23]
mircea_popescu: dude... someone tell lafond if womenz dun listen it's not about the womenz. [14:32]
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-27#1591031 << eulora allows users to spawn n objects and move them around at arbitrary velocities? does physics sim with kinematics? [14:34]
a111: Logged on 2016-12-27 17:13 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes pray tell why do you recommed unity in favour of eulora ? eulora bots exist as a matter of fact, with people hacking on them and repl-ing the results after a 10 minute compile. what equivalent to this does unity offer ? [14:34]
ben_vulpes: collision detection etc? [14:34]
mircea_popescu: is that the mandatory form of this problem ? [14:35]
ben_vulpes: yes. [14:35]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: if the solution is in java, then it isn't a solution, and chances are that your 'problem' is also not a problem [14:35]
mircea_popescu: as exemplified in the logs i have at least one example of guy learning to program on eulora and 0 examples in unity. [14:35]
ben_vulpes: did mircea_popescu think the piece was actually supposed to be useful for teaching noobz to c0d3? [14:36]
ben_vulpes: whole first paragraph didn't register or what [14:37]
ben_vulpes: "learning programming" is miserable and none of the things suggested "are programming" [14:37]
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> dude... someone tell lafond if womenz dun listen it's not about the womenz. << he has comment box and I am busy with unprecedented USDA lulz rivaling unprecedented Israel lulz [14:41]
BingoBoingo: SOrry, UNPRESIDENTED [14:42]
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-27#1591017 << i intuited the same thing, but that it didn't sha512 properly until...last year? induces ye olde pucker [14:46]
a111: Logged on 2016-12-27 16:39 phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-27#1590876 << i suspect that ironclad is still one of the better platforms to audit and integrate into own ecosystem. short of waiting for p what other options do you have? ffi to openssl? the code is readable, in the past year munchkins have been adding various algos to it, so you know what to cut, but also gives you a nice blueprint of how to extend etc. [14:46]
ben_vulpes: amusingly, sha512sum shows drepper as an author on this particular system [14:46]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: iirc the one in gnupg is drepper's [14:47]
ben_vulpes: dreppers and kochs and bears oh my [14:48]
BingoBoingo: !~bcstats [15:11]
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Current Blocks: 445386 | Current Difficulty: 3.10153855703E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 445535 | Next Difficulty In: 149 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 0 hours, 11 minutes, and 20 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None [15:11]
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/12/monetary-printing-press-hot-again-usda-no-rejection-farm-loans-and-unlimited-lending-authority-to-run-through-april-28th-2017/ << Qntra - Monetary Printing Press Hot Again: USDA No Rejection Farm Loans And Unlimited Lending Authority To Run Through April 28th 2017 [15:15]
asciilifeform: 'offensive cultivation cultivation practices' ? [15:18]
BingoBoingo: ty deduped [15:18]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-27#1591256 << it still blows my mind that a proggy that erroneously calculates ~standard~ sha512 was actually released [15:21]
a111: Logged on 2016-12-27 19:46 ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-27#1591017 << i intuited the same thing, but that it didn't sha512 properly until...last year? induces ye olde pucker [15:21]
asciilifeform: author did not do elementary smoke test, or wat. [15:21]
* jurov wonders why no mention of fully skynet-capable tractors that can't be bought, only licensed [15:21]
asciilifeform: jurov: possibly because they are sop since a couple of years ago ? [15:22]
asciilifeform: at least in large mega-farm concerns [15:22]
asciilifeform: we had a thread. [15:22]
jurov: yes yes, just a way to raise awareness and for BingoBoingo to scoop some more precious shares :) [15:23]
asciilifeform: and there are multiple, redundant layers in the shit sandwich, after plowing they sow seeds that cannot be bought, only licensed, etc. [15:23]
asciilifeform: Great Inca cements himself into every possible process loop, makes sure that everybody understands that 'if Great Inca falls -- famine.' [15:23]
jurov: !!!russian h4x0rz!!! [15:25]
BingoBoingo: jurov: Ah, yeah tractor lulz just not acute enough atm [15:32]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: http://cascadianhacker.com/how-to-learn-programming/comment-page-1#comment-96 [15:37]
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: answered [15:43]
ben_vulpes: Framedragger: you too [15:43]
ben_vulpes: i am pretty sure this automated phone system just told me that there were 128 people "ahead of me in line", took down my number and then called me back immediately to put me on hold [15:45]
ben_vulpes: i wonder what metrics are being gamed here [15:45]
asciilifeform: i still wonder how otherwise-sane folx end up in wwwtronics. [15:48]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes, phf, et al ^ [15:48]
ben_vulpes: "just want"ing an office with a keg [15:48]
asciilifeform: you ~could~ be doing something else [15:48]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i worked in an otherwise inexpressibly-dire and usgtronic shithole briefly where there was ~office with whiskey~ [15:48]
asciilifeform: it did not balance the horror. [15:49]
ben_vulpes: praytell what 'others' are they? [15:49]
ben_vulpes: there* [15:49]
asciilifeform: which others [15:49]
ben_vulpes: 'something else' [15:49]
asciilifeform: there are other rackets [15:49]
asciilifeform: the seek000rity racket, for instance [15:49]
asciilifeform: or industrial control systems [15:49]
ben_vulpes: i cannot stomach the security folks [15:50]
asciilifeform: in trinquelandia, there is petro [15:50]
asciilifeform: and hell knows where else, there is hell knows what else, for the easily physically mobile folk [15:50]
ben_vulpes: i once sat in on a sales meeting where this security gentleman terrorized a poor nonprofit into wasting tens of thousands of dollars on snake oil [15:52]
ben_vulpes: whole racket is utterly abhorrent. [15:52]
phf: asciilifeform: i did all those. i was in security for example, doing pen testing and later opsec design. that was in 2004 though [15:53]
ben_vulpes: i have been considering buying a few beat up tow and box trucks and getting into the hauling of cars and storing of shit [15:53]
ben_vulpes: ain't like alibaba and amz are going to stop shipping cheap petrocrap to the states [15:54]
ben_vulpes: i'm also experimenting with alternative identities, imagining wearing a food truck, to see "how the other half lives" [15:55]
ben_vulpes: growing beards, wearing plaid [15:55]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-27#1591248 << i dun see it. the whole fucking point of it is to solve the (interesting) problems selected by whoever is running it not the freeform "solve whatever problem you want" bs. [15:55]
a111: Logged on 2016-12-27 19:35 ben_vulpes: yes. [15:55]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-27#1591251 << it's ambiguous some of the things suggested actually are programming / learning how to do it yes. [15:56]
a111: Logged on 2016-12-27 19:36 ben_vulpes: did mircea_popescu think the piece was actually supposed to be useful for teaching noobz to c0d3? [15:56]
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: that'd be how i actually learned anything useful, finding a master jumping when told. [15:57]
mircea_popescu: yeh. [15:58]
phf: asciilifeform: i also did physical security, actually my biggest lisp project was modifying FREEDIUS to do perimeter security on multiple large south african compounds. they needed to do coordinated incident escalation and wanted something more sophisticated then a wall of monitors [15:59]
mircea_popescu: i thought that was c [16:00]
phf: asciilifeform: but i ~learned~ web 2.0 when it came out in 2004 or 2005 or so, back then because it was interesting new technology. literally nothing changed since then. so now web is an easy racket. despite all the "shitstack" cries there's no difference between it and other types of manure work, but the bar is so low, it is sometimes very convenient. if you're a ~good~ developer doing web, you can write your own check, write your own [16:02]
phf: schedule and write your terms of engagement. [16:02]
mats: heh, half a dozen folks i know at tripadvisor are likely still there because boss is ok with consuming a growler before noon [16:02]
mircea_popescu: (i also thought that it was a lulzfest to rival that wikipedia founder/retard's crazy batshit "knowledge" thing) [16:02]
mats: watta privilege, getting shitfaced on the job [16:02]
mircea_popescu: or no wait, sanger did the retarded "citizen encyclopedia", the crazy "knowledge" job was something else [16:03]
* mircea_popescu tries to remember wtf. [16:04]
phf: asciilifeform: i literally don't spend ~any time~ learning web on my own. i simply have this unprecedented apparently ability to sit the fuck down and read the documentation/source code for longer then it takes to google twitch. spend 3 hours of reading docs??? forget about it, i might as well be a wizard of some sort. [16:04]
ben_vulpes: "wait, how do you even find the source code for stuff?!" [16:05]
mats: !#s paul le roux [16:06]
a111: 0 results for "paul le roux", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=paul%20le%20roux [16:06]
ben_vulpes: in other brute force attacks, did we do http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/02/hacked-just-six-seconds-criminals-need-moments-guess-card-number/ ? [16:06]
mircea_popescu: cyc! lenat's thing. gah. [16:06]
phf: ben_vulpes: "i don't know what's going on here" "ok, let's see what the source says *opens source, starts reading*" "???!?!??!??!?" [16:07]
ben_vulpes: mhm [16:07]
ben_vulpes: "i tell ya tho, all that time you spend tweaking emacs is entirely useless." *navigates to precise spot of insanity* "well that's cool, but emacs is still a waste of time, i coulda found that on github in a few seconds" [16:08]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-27#1591275 << except the russians will be more than happy to ship over excess grain, in exchange for the usual deal [16:08]
a111: Logged on 2016-12-27 20:23 asciilifeform: Great Inca cements himself into every possible process loop, makes sure that everybody understands that 'if Great Inca falls -- famine.' [16:08]
mircea_popescu: (see greek "10 virgin girls, 10 virgin boys" teseus history) [16:09]
* trinque still cannot believe the immense effort that people put into making "dynamic" web page frameworks when the overwhelming majority of the web is static content. [16:09]
trinque: published once. [16:09]
trinque: maybe you get a comment sometime or whatever. [16:09]
trinque: if that doesn't indicate ~there's no one at the wheel~ ... [16:10]
mircea_popescu: there's no one at the wheel. [16:10]
ben_vulpes: anyone ever see the hoops people jump through on large "magento" sites? [16:12]
* jurov was for some time making money basically by reading 10y old perl, too... [16:12]
ben_vulpes: (at least the magento folks have the decency to call their phpball a "site") [16:12]
mircea_popescu: that still exists does it ? [16:12]
ben_vulpes: oya [16:12]
ben_vulpes: wordpress of ecomm afaict [16:13]
* mircea_popescu recalls meeting cca i dunno, 2005 maybe ? dorks were going to make a shop, made demo, mark (eldery expat, texan, totally lovely) innocently goes "wouldn't this be a lot better if it worked ?" [16:13]
trinque: lol [16:14]
ben_vulpes: haww [16:14]
phf: ben_vulpes: it's actual the opposite lulz right now. intellij idea is excellent tool for shitstacking, but i know ok devs who stick to subltime text or vim because "lightweight" "real hacker tool", even though they lack discipline and skill to use those tools effectively. it's like "no, you should probably use this thing, so that i don't have to fucking deal with your inability to format your own source file" [16:14]
mircea_popescu: he didn't even mean anything by it, he was using it ~to encourage~ the kids. [16:14]
mircea_popescu: as in, you know, "i'm sure this is great and all, and the not working totally incidental" [16:14]
ben_vulpes: kinda think "not working totally incidental" has not been a favor to its recipients. [16:15]
mircea_popescu: myeah. [16:15]
trinque: look, I'm an idea guy. [16:15]
mircea_popescu: of course at the time dev work was cheap. i had no interest, but this actually happened in del ray casino and the kids were asking for less than what people threw at the sluttier ticas in chips. [16:16]
ben_vulpes: phf: even naive xcode shits whitespace all over the place [16:16]
mircea_popescu: ~same came of either +/- a blowjob or two. [16:16]
phf: ben_vulpes: well, that's why there's appcode. [16:18]
ben_vulpes: da [16:18]
ben_vulpes: fuq [16:18]
ben_vulpes: ah tight [16:18]
ben_vulpes: > seamlessly integrates with cocoapods [16:19]
ben_vulpes: i don't usually fuck with dependencies, but when i do i want my ide to fix all of the problems for me [16:19]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-27#1591325 << thread >> http://btcbase.org/log/2014-02-13#499311 [16:21]
a111: Logged on 2016-12-27 21:06 ben_vulpes: in other brute force attacks, did we do http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/02/hacked-just-six-seconds-criminals-need-moments-guess-card-number/ ? [16:21]
a111: Logged on 2014-02-13 00:54 asciilifeform: 'carding' as we know it is actually a creature of u.s. and british banks. which profit from it. [16:21]
phf: appcode/xcode/vs/etc. are not ~your ide~, none of this is yours. i mean it's sort of like being sent to gulag and grumbling about wheelbarrow design. of course you will, because mind, but it's not going to make your life easier [16:22]
asciilifeform: !~bash 1 [16:23]
jhvh1: Last 1 lines bashed and pending publication [16:23]
asciilifeform: (is that knob actually connected to anything...?) [16:23]
mircea_popescu: the question of course is whose is it. [16:24]
mircea_popescu: alf likes to assert "x profits from it" but this assertion is kinda nude. apple benefits from xcode about as much as rbs benefits from western world being made of chickens. [16:24]
asciilifeform: Дальстрой's of course [16:24]
mircea_popescu: gotta spend all this time maning stockades, rather than the other way around [16:24]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: consider, by crown decree, visa issued chip cards to ~all of usa. SANS RSA [16:25]
phf: asciilifeform: you mean berzin's? no wait pavlov's? oh wait. nikishov's? yeah scratch that too [16:25]
asciilifeform: because not printing private key on the fucking plastic WOULD BE WRONG!1111 [16:25]
mircea_popescu: there's an important business strategy point here that's not discussed among the chickens, but hark : it is actually a better business strategy to sell to isis than to us consumer - because isis is still on the ground in spite of usg shooting missles at it whereas us consumer is barely standing in spite of usg pumping all it can print straight into him. [16:26]
mircea_popescu: you want your customers to be tough, because if they survive so do you. [16:26]
mircea_popescu: it is ~also~ much easier to scale isis than to scale ~your business~ predicated on selling to the us consumer. chiefly because yes "but mp! ipos happen every day!" sure they do - not for ~YOU~. for them. see http://trilema.com/2015/you-know-what-gets-no-airplay-unflattering-truth/ [16:27]
mircea_popescu: even emperor-god-jobs was KICKED OUT OF HIS OWN CORP by the fuckers. [16:28]
asciilifeform: and in 17th c it was probably the fattest +ev to invest in pirates. [16:33]
asciilifeform: (until it wasn't) [16:33]
mircea_popescu: in point of fact it was. [16:34]
asciilifeform: yarrrr. [16:34]
asciilifeform: (see also the feasting on corpses thread, not so long ago) [16:34]
mircea_popescu: rather. [16:36]
mircea_popescu: as a point of sovereign strategy, you always want to trade with the smallest and toughest of the neighbours - it's productive, plus it softens them up and to loot and pillage the largest, softest of neighbours (preferably under the guise of "being allies" and "keeping the peace" if possible, but outright rapine otherwise). [16:37]
mircea_popescu: which i suppose is the main strategic direction of tmsr - in a few years they either pay us to "secure" all systems or else the systems burn down. [16:37]
mircea_popescu: sounds like a reasonable basis for an actual state. [16:37]
mircea_popescu: then in a few centuries tmsr guard can protect the scotuspope much like the swiss guard in rome today. nice hats and all. [16:38]
mircea_popescu: "the whitehouse website based in maryland" as the expression went. [16:39]
mod6: shout-out to trinque @ new wot-graph. Thank you for making this work! https://twitter.com/modsix/status/813856062256377856 [16:41]
mircea_popescu: yeh it's pretty cool innit [16:41]
mod6: i love this stuff. [16:41]
mircea_popescu: btw are you foundation people gonna make a prize gala or something ? [16:42]
trinque: that it came out as a trollface smiley is a sign from the gods. [16:42]
ben_vulpes: whoa trinque that js is snappy [16:43]
mod6: gala? last we were discussing some sort of university advertising [16:43]
mircea_popescu: hey i'm just an idea guy [16:43]
mod6: and we had some ideas regarding the same, but didn't come to any specific conculsions. [16:43]
mircea_popescu: nething public ? [16:43]
mod6: not as of yet. working on it. [16:44]
trinque: ben_vulpes: www-wot package farts out a bunch of json index files for the search [16:44]
mircea_popescu: alrighty. [16:44]
phf: is there link outside of twitter? [16:44]
ben_vulpes: phf: http://wot.deedbot.org/4F7907942CA8B89B01E25A762AFA1A9FD2D031DA.html [16:44]
mod6: i'd actually say we're close, but we're working on some phrasing etc. [16:44]
phf: ty [16:44]
trinque: !!key ben_vulpes [16:44]
deedbot: http://wot.deedbot.org/4F7907942CA8B89B01E25A762AFA1A9FD2D031DA.asc [16:44]
trinque: also a link on the page. [16:44]
ben_vulpes: so here's what i'm thinking re: ironclad [16:59]
ben_vulpes: i don't want to say something like "ensure you have HEAD of the Ironclad library", i think it's more likely and more in line with waht mod6 is doing to shell out to sha512sum [17:00]
ben_vulpes: more likely to work* on $box [17:01]
mod6: ya 'tis what v.pl does [17:01]
ben_vulpes: mhm [17:01]
ben_vulpes: i'm also not really in a mood to make ironclad_genesis.vpatch today [17:01]
ben_vulpes: plan then is to grind this patch for my v out shelling out to sha512sum [17:02]
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu, phf, asciilifeform, mod6: thoughts? [17:02]
mod6: tmsr aught to send out a message to them saying their shit dun work [17:02]
ben_vulpes: phf linked the patch, he fixed it [17:03]
mod6: ah ok. was that the pdf i didn't read? [17:03]
phf: nah, the fix is in the trunk already [17:03]
phf: mod6: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-26#1590699 [17:04]
a111: Logged on 2016-12-26 02:38 phf: ben_vulpes: according to master this is the reason http://glyf.org/tmp/ironclad-sha512.patch unsigned for obvious reasons [17:04]
ben_vulpes: phf: not in whatever quicklisp builds though, right? [17:04]
mod6: ah thx phf [17:04]
phf: ben_vulpes: correct [17:04]
ben_vulpes: the one time i want a package manager to have the most recent commits... [17:06]
phf: "you can't fix a machine by just power-cycling it with no understanding of what is going wrong" [17:08]
mircea_popescu: ok so if they put patches in at least, what's the argument against linking to them ? [17:10]
mircea_popescu: i suppose should be invited to wot etc. [17:10]
ben_vulpes: guy lays out in his "how ironclad came to be" that he doesn't really spend much time on it anymore. [17:11]
mircea_popescu: no practical way to just steal the sha itself make it a standalone ? [17:12]
ben_vulpes: have not looked yet [17:12]
ben_vulpes: might be more practical to make a genesis for the fixed version [17:13]
mircea_popescu: will probably end up with a tmsr crypto lib anyway, might as well start thinking about it. [17:13]
mircea_popescu: course since the nsa consulting work for minigame is going to produce ada rsa, it might be an idea to have an ~ada~ tmsr crypto lib. [17:14]
ben_vulpes: pump the brakes there idea man [17:15]
ben_vulpes: i am trying to figure out how to handle widely-distributed versions of ironclad not working in the way i need them to work for my v to verify hashes on press [17:16]
phf: just want it work huh [17:16]
* phf ducks [17:16]
ben_vulpes: not indefinitely postpone releasing this vpatch while i wait for stan to release an ada cryptor and link that from cl [17:16]
* ben_vulpes throws a coffee mug at phf [17:17]
ben_vulpes: i am willing to do all sorts of stupid shit, buddy [17:17]
ben_vulpes: anyways, mircea_popescu says "don't shell out to sha512sum"? [17:18]
mircea_popescu: gotta discuss this otherwise we'll end up with apical chaos. [17:18]
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes do i have such a reputation for blocking work ? [17:18]
mircea_popescu: we still gotta figure out what we intend to do here. [17:18]
mircea_popescu: now then. can the lispheads live with the idea of an ada tmsr-cryptolib ? perhaps with it as a reference and a lisp copy ? [17:18]
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes i say "keep shelling to it for as long as that's what you do, but once you change that change it to something sane" [17:19]
mircea_popescu: grandfathering principle. [17:19]
mircea_popescu: you know, exactly how trb work proceeds also. [17:19]
ben_vulpes: mhm [17:20]
ben_vulpes: is shelling in principle insane? [17:20]
mircea_popescu: yes. [17:20]
mircea_popescu: shelling is === calling php. [17:20]
mircea_popescu: if the thing you're shelling to is actually the right thing, take the code put it in a lib or in your application. [17:21]
mircea_popescu: but as a principle, the shell exists for a human operator. shelling from code is much like taking knives and forks, melting them, and trying to dropforge tools. they WERE ALREADY metal that was forged into something. go to that source, change that from knives to wrenches or w/e you are doing. no need to involve the whole supermarket chain to sell you metal ingots in fork shape at 20bux a half dozen [17:23]
ben_vulpes: makes sense [17:24]
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all [17:27]
ben_vulpes: nutso [17:28]
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 930.85, vol: 7071.97692009 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 906.046, vol: 6799.44128 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 932.97, vol: 9348.2437732 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 963.622033, vol: 2434915.56320000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 932.903, vol: 1742.5150349 | Volume-weighted last average: 963.23042046 [17:28]
BingoBoingo: lolfartz http://sli.mg/a/nibQmO [17:31]
BingoBoingo: "The amount of hospitalisations and appointments that have lead me to this point isn't a low number" doesn't see problem in being a fatso https://archive.is/37T8w#selection-85.279-85.377 [17:33]
BingoBoingo: http://notyourgoodfatty.com/tess-munster-onesizefitshardlyanyone/ [17:34]
mircea_popescu: and in other fictions, http://68.media.tumblr.com/d90db4a0d70dabb47bbb9806b3438a62/tumblr_oeuu9lQCsf1rrq7ino1_1280.jpg [17:38]
ben_vulpes: rather [17:39]
BingoBoingo: Jaundiced Pooh hate for alf https://archive.fo/GAN5N [17:39]
asciilifeform: lel [17:40]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-27#1591442 << good habit, one which i would like to encourage where possible : not waiting for $ingredient [17:42]
a111: Logged on 2016-12-27 22:16 ben_vulpes: not indefinitely postpone releasing this vpatch while i wait for stan to release an ada cryptor and link that from cl [17:42]
asciilifeform: i will add that it is not clear that you want to link whatever in cl. [17:42]
ben_vulpes: aiui, my options are link or shell. is this incorrect? [17:43]
asciilifeform: 'I made this half-pony, half-monkey monster to please you / But I get the feeling that you don't like it / What's with all the screaming? / You like monkeys, you like ponies / Maybe you don't like monsters so much / Maybe I used too many monkeys / Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you?' (tm) (r) (j. coulton) [17:43]
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes considering the only reason your lisp vtron even exists is because you're apparently fond of reimplementation, [17:43]
mircea_popescu: it stands to reason that no, those two aren't your only options. [17:44]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: you omitted the third and obvious option [17:44]
asciilifeform: and mircea_popescu has it [17:44]
ben_vulpes: ah [17:44]
ben_vulpes: walked into that one. [17:44]
mircea_popescu: there is A LOT of strength in this, having a core of libs/utils that aren't merely written, nor merely reviewed, but TRANSLATED [17:44]
mircea_popescu: it is of the same type as the openbsd compiling for vaxen [17:44]
mircea_popescu: unlike - in fact opposite - to poetry, code actually improves through translation. [17:45]
ben_vulpes: "i did not choose the nih lifestyle, the nih lifestyle chose me" [17:46]
ben_vulpes: i kid, i kid. [17:46]
pete_dushenski: http://archive.is/aHlQo#selection-687.1-687.111 << " Fatties don't do wine valleys & shabby-chic decor. We do pork rinds & farting in our own trucks. It's science." [17:49]
pete_dushenski: so thaaaat's what modern science is. [17:49]
jurov: ben_vulpes: if #t becomes dull some day, you can stir it by translating it to javascript [17:50]
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: you'll enjoy that link [17:50]
ben_vulpes: jurov: didn't polarbeard or whomever threaten us with a js v? [17:50]
mircea_popescu: i thought it was java [17:50]
ben_vulpes: dunno, don't care [17:51]
asciilifeform: jurov: with what do you run a js from a shell..? [17:51]
mircea_popescu: curl [17:51]
jurov: with node.js :) [17:51]
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: what, you want /more/ radiation damage? [17:51]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i'd genuinely lul over discovering that this exists [17:52]
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: lul away [17:52]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you built a curl with js?! [17:52]
ben_vulpes: it is called as the man says "node.js" [17:52]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you use curl on the box to call into the loopback where an apache server with lamp runs. [17:52]
ben_vulpes: it is used to further drive down the cost of human cogs crapping out lines of code [17:52]
ben_vulpes: because "HOLY GRAIL: ONE LANG IN BROWSER AND SERVER" [17:53]
mircea_popescu: i thought node.js is now called io.js anyway [17:53]
jurov: yep, google divorced js engine from chrome [17:53]
asciilifeform: iirc we had thread re 'node.js', in the context of corps with mandatory transsexual op etc [17:53]
phf: it's called v8, which is a case of talented programmers working for fuhrer [17:53]
jurov: or was it some kind of incest? [17:53]
jurov: as paperclip'd nazi scientists, they would work for anyone who allows them to, imo [17:54]
mircea_popescu: actually the crypto lib should be in js anyway. down with fucking ints. [17:54]
* mircea_popescu has always wondered how much of the ecdsa push met with approval because people couldn't do bignum math anyway. [17:55]
phf: lars bak used to work on high performance smalltalk virtual machines, then java. v8 is still the case "ok, let me write some semblance of sane technology for this shit language of yours". since then everything that's happened around javascript is cargoculting v8 [17:55]
phf: people bolt v8 on cli, called it node, make landing strips out of straw with it [17:56]
ben_vulpes: strikingly similar to some other description of how perl grew "object oriented programming" [17:57]
phf: most of the things seem to have sane core, which you can dig for for a long time, but it's there, and the reason is that ~doing anything at all~ is so much effort, everything that's done is a byproduct of some human being constructively spending energy at one time in one place. [17:58]
phf: kind of like cat-v, from recent memory, was a fledgling tmsr at one point: mp died, asciilifeform's left elsewhere, maggots still there [18:00]
asciilifeform: i'm not sold that it was 'fledgling tmsr' of whatever kind [18:01]
phf: asciilifeform: if you squint really hard, in the same sense that "scene was closest precursor to tmsr in computing before" [18:02]
BingoBoingo: One could say same about OpenBSD except their mp (Theo) was and stayed poor and stooges (Bob Beck) rallied to gatekeeper and treasury positions [18:03]
asciilifeform: wtf'd be a 'poor mp' [18:04]
mircea_popescu: at least in intent/intuition i can see the cat-v, wanted to be tmsr, didn't know what it wants or how it goes thesis. [18:05]
mircea_popescu: from what i read of the mythical founder, he read very much like a young naggum / gl [18:05]
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: would be a biter with insufficient venom to kill rather than emotionally wound [18:12]
ben_vulpes: gabriel_laddel: answered [18:40]
asciilifeform: somehow i thought that 'an mp' is almost definitionally a d00d who knows ~exactly~ what he wants, and thrusts in that direction, rather like the edge of a knife orients force [18:41]
asciilifeform: (as seen in the 'act from cause' thing etc) [18:41]
mircea_popescu: i don't know exactly what i want. [18:43]
mircea_popescu: i do know exactly what i don't want however. [18:43]
asciilifeform: all you need is a set of 'not' gates the width of your bus, then!111 [18:44]
mircea_popescu: lol [18:50]
mats: https://www.cnet.com/news/police-request-echo-recordings-for-homicide-investigation [19:17]
asciilifeform: promisetronics ftw! [19:17]
asciilifeform: 'Amazon stores all the voice recordings on its servers, in the hopes of using the data to improve its voice assistant services. While you can delete your personal voice data, there's still no way to prevent any recordings from being saved on a server.' << noshit [19:18]
mats: pucker up [19:18]
mats: (this is mildly relevant to the courts circus project) [19:20]
asciilifeform: 'With every home in Bentonville hooked up to a smart meter that measures hourly electricity and water usage, police looked at the data and noticed Bates used an "excessive amount of water" during the alleged drowning.' << wtf, what was he drowned in, a dirigible hangar ?! [19:20]
mats: idiot reasoning [19:22]
mats: maybe bates had food poisoning and flushed a buncha times [19:22]
phf: i for one am looking for to a gattaca future, where i have to hire a standin for myself. to run amazon echo and nest and facebook and all the other things like that so that there aren't any irregularities [19:25]
mats: >... we discovered numerous devices that were used for "smart home" services, to include a "Nest" thermometer that is Wi-Fi connected and remotely controlled, a Honeywell alarm system that included door monitoring alarms and motion sensor in the living room, a wireless weather monitoring system outside on the back patio, and WeMo device in the garage area [19:29]
mats: for remote-activated lighting purposes that had not been opened yet. [19:29]
asciilifeform: i'm still waiting to learn of a corpse where the wifitronic burglar alarm 'mysteriously' recorded nothing, but i also suspect that we will not read about it in the völkischer beobachter. [19:30]
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2016/first-eulora-hackathon/ << Trilema - First Eulora Hackathon [19:52]
mircea_popescu: ^ recommended not just because of the 85 bitcents in prizes [19:53]
deedbot: http://cascadianhacker.com/veh-patch-hashes_and_errorsvpatch << CH - veh patch: hashes_and_errors.vpatch [19:56]
asciilifeform: neato ben_vulpes [20:02]
ben_vulpes: ty asciilifeform [20:02]
ben_vulpes: tried to dial back the programmer-imposed unnecessary complexity [20:03]
phf: that run is a bit weird [20:53]
phf: i'd write it as (cmd &optional args &key input), because you always have to provide cmd (where's right now you can write (run) and the compiler won't catch it), more often than not you have to provide args and sometimes you have to provide input [20:56]
phf: also as a rule you don't really want to let string output streams escape their scope. they don't have standard type (one cmucl it's lisp::string-output-stream for example), so you can't test for it, and for all intents and purposes they act as incomplete builders: you can't do anything with them except get their value, so why not get value there and then? [20:58]
asciilifeform: ahahaha, as per http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1588427 [21:01]
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 17:58 asciilifeform: common lisp committee was hobbled by babelism, had to stuff in the redundant idiocies, and never got to, say, actually developing streams properly (why the fuck are we stuck with hacks like gray streams? and where is the commonlisp with ~working~ mop ? etc) [21:01]
phf: ben_vulpes: actually you're get-output-streaming twice there, first time http://btcbase.org/patches/hashes_and_errors#L24 and second time http://btcbase.org/patches/hashes_and_errors#L28 [21:05]
asciilifeform: unrelated, ben_vulpes : how come you search the gpg output for 'bad signature' rather than 'good signature...' ? [21:08]
ben_vulpes: phf: ty, keep it coming if you don't mind, i must go async [21:09]
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: naively, i expect gpg to exit 0 if the signature is good [21:10]
asciilifeform: it'd seem to me that if i throw in a seal that crashes gpg, ben_vulpes's vtron will say 'good signature' ! [21:10]
ben_vulpes: that inspection is only performed on a bad exit code [21:10]
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: if you can get gpg to crash without exiting zero, i misunderstand much about how this world works [21:11]
ben_vulpes: must go async, ty to you both [21:11]
phf: i think it's actually related. otherwise he'd have to get-output-stream-string there again. all the folly starts with that weird run [21:11]
adlai: ben_vulpes: dunno how this happened, but the link to http://cascadianhacker.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/hashes_and_errorsvpatchben_vulpes.sig is missing a bunch of periods [21:14]
adlai: !~later tell ben_vulpes see preceding message [21:14]
jhvh1: adlai: The operation succeeded. [21:14]
phf: there's not much discipline on unix with stderr/stdout. particularly gpg seems cavalier with it. so i wouldn't even bother with error/output separation. i'd make it always return a single value, string that's combined stdout/stderr, and fail when status code is not equal to zero. maybe add a key argument, that splits them if need be, but only once there's need. [21:17]
phf: http://btcbase.org/patches/hashes_and_errors#L68 you don't really want to use handler-bind here. you want h-b only when you're working with the whole restart machinery. (handler-case (let ...) (external-program-error (error) ...)) is equivalent of the try/catch that you're doing here [21:22]
phf: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Condition-Handling-2001.html this is the canonical document on error handling in common lisp. it's long and dense, because powerful machinery [21:23]
phf: also in the same handler-bind you're losing a branch. if there's an error, but it's not "BAD signature", then the whole verify silently succeeds. you probably want to (error c) in the else branch to rethrow whatever [21:25]
phf: oh i guess you're checking process-exit-code again, even though you already caught an error for it. i think handler-bind is just confusing here. (handler-case (... t) (error (error) nil)) would've been much more obvious. "succeed and return t or fail and nil" [21:27]
phf: heh, this is straight up rubyism http://btcbase.org/patches/veh-genesis#L145. it would've been much cheaper to (defstruct hashed-path path hash) and so that later you don't have to poor man datastructure by (gethash 'path ...) (gethash 'hash ...) all over the place [21:34]
asciilifeform: unrelated: for BingoBoingo's entomological collection: http://workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/82115/very-particular-female-bathroom-issues [21:35]
phf: http://btcbase.org/patches/hashes_and_errors#L118 you don't really want to do this. you're subseq'ing there to strip the a/ b/ but that's not at all a guarantee! i have a vpatch with `diff -ib -ruN /Users/pf/cmucl20d-build/src/hemlock/abbrev.lisp src/abbrev.lisp` in it for example. at the very least you want to abstract it away into its own function. that would correctly operate on a hashed-path datastructure. [21:39]
phf: also you don't want to concatenate paths, because that's how you end up losing separators and getting injection attacks and such. (merge-pathnames ...) will still work on strings, but will do the right thing [21:40]
phf: i'm going to stop wall of texting the log though [21:41]
phf: the main folly are the unixisms all over the place. lisp works with a clear read/eval/print cycle. read means that you want to take outside input and convert it into a concrete data structure. so you shouldn't have a hash with strings in it. things like (string= "false" (gethash 'hash c)) should not happen so far down the call chain. your ~reader~ should convert the input data into a format that's easy to work with. the check could've [21:47]
phf: been (if (not (hashed-path-hash c)) ...) because you ~reader~ should've already massaged it all into the kind of data computers understand. btcbase uses nil for empty hashes, you could have :empty or whatever, but certainly not carying strings and dictionaries all over the place. [21:47]
asciilifeform: folx coming from type-poor langs tend to emit 'perlisms' for some time, yes [21:54]
phf: fwiw btcbase parses path component into a pathname, and the hash is (member nil bignum) [21:57]
phf: so instead of doing subseqs you can just (pathname-path ...), you check for "false" by a simple null check, you check for hash equality with eql or = [21:59]
phf: it's an "overkill" for a "unix script", because you throw all that data out anyway soon after constructing it. but in a lisp instance, when you already have all that data in the ~correct form~ you can start writing a dozen of different functions to analyze it, without getting bogged down on format trivia all over the place [22:01]
asciilifeform: pretty good likbez re what specifically 'non-perlistic' programming is . [22:07]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-28#1591566 << very much this. trusting gpg in this manner is irresponsible. [22:21]
a111: Logged on 2016-12-28 02:17 phf: there's not much discipline on unix with stderr/stdout. particularly gpg seems cavalier with it. so i wouldn't even bother with error/output separation. i'd make it always return a single value, string that's combined stdout/stderr, and fail when status code is not equal to zero. maybe add a key argument, that splits them if need be, but only once there's need. [22:21]
mircea_popescu: phf 's lisp critique service is actually pretty cool. [22:26]
mircea_popescu: "Obesity can be a disability in the EU. That makes it a sticky legal issue and given that she is the lone female, that makes it doubly so. If she's transgendered (which is possible given that she stands up apparently) then it's triply so. This is so intertwined in legal ramifications I can't imagine anything you can say or do (other than what you are already) that doesn't need a lawyer to make sure you don't end up in a suit. [22:29]
mircea_popescu: " bwahahaha what the shit already. [22:29]
mircea_popescu: what the fuck happened to "can her in front of the whole staff, in the terms that she may seek employment once she conquers the requirements for preschool and if she wants a recomendation letter this is going in the first paragraph." [22:30]
mircea_popescu: "To whomever it may concern - I strongly advise against hiring the bearer of this letter, as she is not sufficiently qualified to take a piss." [22:30]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-28#1591575 << no go ahead, there is a prize for completeness. [22:32]
a111: Logged on 2016-12-28 02:41 phf: i'm going to stop wall of texting the log though [22:32]
ben_vulpes: adlai: wordpress, my friend. wordpress. [22:48]
ben_vulpes: phf: thank you very much [22:48]
BingoBoingo: wonderful specimen for the colletion alf [22:48]
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: fwiw it was linked from a 'what determines stall speed for aircraft' article [22:49]
asciilifeform: why? who could possibly know. [22:49]
BingoBoingo: lol [22:51]
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-28#1591550 << gotcha, it was an &rest before which may explain the contortions [22:52]
a111: Logged on 2016-12-28 01:56 phf: i'd write it as (cmd &optional args &key input), because you always have to provide cmd (where's right now you can write (run) and the compiler won't catch it), more often than not you have to provide args and sometimes you have to provide input [22:52]
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-28#1591551 << sensible ty [22:53]
a111: Logged on 2016-12-28 01:58 phf: also as a rule you don't really want to let string output streams escape their scope. they don't have standard type (one cmucl it's lisp::string-output-stream for example), so you can't test for it, and for all intents and purposes they act as incomplete builders: you can't do anything with them except get their value, so why not get value there and then? [22:53]
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-28#1591554 << yup, derp [22:53]
a111: Logged on 2016-12-28 02:05 phf: ben_vulpes: actually you're get-output-streaming twice there, first time http://btcbase.org/patches/hashes_and_errors#L24 and second time http://btcbase.org/patches/hashes_and_errors#L28 [22:53]
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-28#1591566 << rgr [22:54]
a111: Logged on 2016-12-28 02:17 phf: there's not much discipline on unix with stderr/stdout. particularly gpg seems cavalier with it. so i wouldn't even bother with error/output separation. i'd make it always return a single value, string that's combined stdout/stderr, and fail when status code is not equal to zero. maybe add a key argument, that splits them if need be, but only once there's need. [22:54]
mircea_popescu: lol you know you don't have to roger each line :D [22:58]
mircea_popescu: you perl head you :D :D [22:58]
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-28#1591569 << i used http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/joF2F/?raw=true to convince myself that this is not true when writing the thing at first [22:59]
a111: Logged on 2016-12-28 02:25 phf: also in the same handler-bind you're losing a branch. if there's an error, but it's not "BAD signature", then the whole verify silently succeeds. you probably want to (error c) in the else branch to rethrow whatever [22:59]
ben_vulpes: but i may catastrophically misunderstand [23:00]
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-28#1591571 << o hey, you found the oldest and most heinous sins i didn't fix [23:03]
a111: Logged on 2016-12-28 02:34 phf: heh, this is straight up rubyism http://btcbase.org/patches/veh-genesis#L145. it would've been much cheaper to (defstruct hashed-path path hash) and so that later you don't have to poor man datastructure by (gethash 'path ...) (gethash 'hash ...) all over the place [23:03]
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-28#1591575 << no need to stop if there's more to say [23:06]
a111: Logged on 2016-12-28 02:41 phf: i'm going to stop wall of texting the log though [23:06]
mircea_popescu: http://www.broomie.co.uk/full-event-president-elect-donald-trump-rally-in-cincinnati-oh-12116/#comment-320544 << in other lulz. [23:19]
asciilifeform: lel [23:20]
asciilifeform: 'TRUMP hotels on the moon and mars, for starters. For those who want to ENGINEER this (and much, much more), email me at: gabriel valeth laddel @ gmail dot com, using the subject line “MAGA: THE SPACE RACE IS ON”' [23:22]
asciilifeform: wat. [23:22]
asciilifeform: i suppose d00d finally scored that lsd or whatever it was he lacked. [23:22]
mircea_popescu: why's everyone always skip over venus ? mars is too hot the moon is too small. neither make any fucking sense. [23:25]
* ben_vulpes reconsidering that masamoone box [23:25]
mircea_popescu: other than well chosen jupiter satellites, venus is the ticket. [23:25]
ben_vulpes: mars is too hot? [23:25]
mircea_popescu: yes. [23:25]
ben_vulpes: unscreened solar flux or something? [23:26]
ben_vulpes: or "rad-hot" [23:26]
mircea_popescu: yes it's tiny and bs. [23:26]
ben_vulpes: that [23:26]
ben_vulpes: is what she said [23:26]
mircea_popescu: lmao [23:26]
mircea_popescu: srsly though, what is it, 1% of earth pressure ? [23:27]
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-28#1591550 << sbcl makes a style warning about &optional and &keys together. i lack the intuition to override the compiler here, does this weaken typechecking and is it worthwhile? [23:27]
a111: Logged on 2016-12-28 01:56 phf: i'd write it as (cmd &optional args &key input), because you always have to provide cmd (where's right now you can write (run) and the compiler won't catch it), more often than not you have to provide args and sometimes you have to provide input [23:27]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: iirc the longest-enduring venus probe croaked after 1h. from overheat. [23:28]
ben_vulpes: that just means we need floating cities [23:28]
ben_vulpes: bespin now [23:28]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i am not responsible for bad engineering. [23:28]
mircea_popescu: point is, there are expensive things and cheap things. compensating for a lack of atmosphere is fucking expensive. properly cooling is nothing compared. [23:29]
asciilifeform: how do you 'properly cool' when ambient atmosphere is oven [23:29]
mircea_popescu: we got all these global warming experts, they'll capture the co2 or something [23:30]
asciilifeform: lolk. [23:30]
ben_vulpes: brin mentioned a trick with endothermic lasers [23:31]
ben_vulpes: nfi if such exist [23:31]
mircea_popescu: btw, what's the latest in crackpottery re venus lack of magnetosphere ? [23:32]
asciilifeform: no field, no magnetosphere [23:33]
asciilifeform: no crackpottery needed [23:33]
mircea_popescu: yes but is it because it spins backwards ? [23:33]
asciilifeform: mno, because solid [23:34]
mircea_popescu: could be that its really a spaceship. [23:34]
asciilifeform: a block of cheese. [23:34]
mircea_popescu: wasn't that the moon ? [23:34]
asciilifeform: can have 2!11!1 [23:35]
ben_vulpes: lol stan having none of it [23:35]
mircea_popescu: but for srs, it's not actually known why the fuck. [23:35]
mircea_popescu: it does have volcanic activity, so it's not that. it DOES spin, though perhaps too slow. [23:36]
asciilifeform: phun phakt: as an undergrad i worked for the d00d who curated the 'Вега' probes. but he was already, naturally, in usa, and sorta old, nutty. [23:36]
phf: ben_vulpes: (if (search ...) (error ...) (what-happens-here???)) [23:36]
phf: oh oh i see what you're saying [23:37]
* ben_vulpes shrugs [23:38]
ben_vulpes: i read "handler-case destroys the call stack" and thought to myself "if i can avoid that, i probably should". [23:39]
phf: well, it's only interesting if you're going to restart, otherwise.. [23:40]
ben_vulpes: otherwise may as well nuke everything in the unrecoverable branch [23:40]
phf: well, more important whose reporting the failure. if you want to pass through to the user the fact that there's a shell call out somewhere and it has all kinds of mechanisms. but verify should probably speak for itself in its own terms. [23:42]
phf: but your bad-signature is an external-program-error, so the whole things is a swiss chese [23:45]
ben_vulpes: i imagined an inheritance chain looking like error->external-program-error->{bad-signature, no-gpg-data, ...} [23:46]
ben_vulpes: probably pointless complexity that could be snipped in favor of simple errors everywhere? [23:47]
phf: no, that's no the issue, it's more like a complexity along arbitrary lines [23:47]
phf: you have a set of (incomplete and adhoc, but there) crypto operations. they speak their own language. they can succeed, they can fail, but none of that has to do with "external programs". that's a different set of operations that deals with unix etc. that speaks its own language [23:49]
ben_vulpes: so that there are a set of operations that just happen to be implemented with "external programs" is no reason their errors should inherit from "external program" errors [23:50]
phf: right [23:50]
ben_vulpes: k [23:50]
ben_vulpes: "swiss cheese" then meaning something like "notions are touching each other for no reason other than that's how the air bubbles formed"? [23:51]
phf: yeap [23:51]
ben_vulpes: coooool [23:51]
ben_vulpes: thanks again [23:52]
ben_vulpes: clim clim clim [23:55]
ben_vulpes: gabriel_laddel_p: how do i know you're not running the longest and lowest-dough scam with these masamune boxen? [23:55]
asciilifeform: clim voroshilov. [23:55]
gabriel_laddel_p: !!key ben_vulpes [23:56]
deedbot: http://wot.deedbot.org/4F7907942CA8B89B01E25A762AFA1A9FD2D031DA.asc [23:56]
gabriel_laddel_p: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-28#1591621 < and how exactly do you go about finding blindly ambitious youngsters? [23:57]
a111: Logged on 2016-12-28 04:25 ben_vulpes reconsidering that masamoone box [23:57]
ben_vulpes: are you describing yourself or people you want to respond to whatever that was asciilifeform quoted? [23:58]
gabriel_laddel_p: Incidentally, it is pronounced "maza-mune". Yes, yes, as you wrote is technically how they say it in japan, but it sounds stupid. [23:58]
ben_vulpes: gabriel_laddel_p: it's a pun on moon hotels [23:58]
gabriel_laddel_p: oic [23:58]
phf: heh, i also pronounce it japanese style, ma-sa-mu-ne [23:58]
gabriel_laddel_p: phf: sounds absurd, doesn't it? [23:59]
gabriel_laddel_p: totally ka-wai-eee [23:59]
ben_vulpes: i am epically confused, how else would it be pronounced [23:59]
gabriel_laddel_p: or something idk [23:59]
ben_vulpes: neeee sooo desu [23:59]
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    The Bitcoin Foundation 2014-2020 « Ossa Sepia (via Pingback)
    Friday, 5 June 2020

    [...] is the usual macula of this sort of idiocy, much like chancre is the mark of syphilis. mircea_popescu: btw are you foundation people gonna make a prize gala or something ? mod6: gala? last we were [...]

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