Forum logs for 26 Mar 2019
| hanbot: | http://trilema.com/forum-logs-for-25-mar-2019#2527046 << http://thewhet.net/2019/03/mp-wp-patch-for-enabling-html-comments/ updated phf billymg mircea_popescu et al. | [02:27] |
| a111: | Logged on 2019-03-25 16:51 hanbot: nope, fuck me, still broken. i'm going to have to regrind again, meanwhile i have meattasks in town. this'll be done today. | [02:27] |
| diana_coman: | mircea_popescu: ack | [03:54] |
| mircea_popescu: | meanwhile on topics of "usg, the latest socialism", i very warmly recommend kennan's 1947 sources of soviet conduct. | [04:46] |
| mircea_popescu: | "Now it lies in the nature of the mental world of the Soviet leaders, as well as in the character of their ideology, that no opposition to them can be officially recognized as having any merit or justification whatsoever. Such opposition can flow, in theory, only from the hostile and incorrigible forces of [???]" | [04:46] |
| mircea_popescu: | "dying capitalism" / "racism" whateveretcetera. | [04:46] |
| mircea_popescu: | "ignorant racism & homophobia" i suppose | [04:47] |
| mircea_popescu: | "On the principle of infallibility there rests the iron discipline of the Communist Party. In fact, the two concepts are mutually self-supporting. Perfect discipline requires recognition of infallibility. Infallibility requires the observance of discipline. And the two go far to determine the behaviorism of the entire Soviet apparatus of power. But their effect cannot be understood unless a third factor be taken into accou | [04:58] |
| mircea_popescu: | nt: namely, the fact that the leadership is at liberty to put forward for tactical purposes any particular thesis which it finds useful to the cause at any particular moment and to require the faithful and unquestioning acceptance of that thesis by the members of the movement as a whole. This means that truth is not a constant but is actually created, for all intents and purposes, by the Soviet leaders themselves. It may v | [04:58] |
| mircea_popescu: | ary from week to week, from month to month. It is nothing absolute and immutable -- nothing which flows from objective reality. It is only the most recent manifestation of the wisdom of those in whom the ultimate wisdom is supposed to reside, because they represent the logic of history. The accumulative effect of these factors is to give to the whole subordinate apparatus of Soviet power [http://trilema.com/2016/and-they-w | [04:58] |
| mircea_popescu: | ont-fucking-yield/][an unshakable stubbornness and steadfastness] in its orientation. This orientation can be changed at will by the Kremlin but by no other power. Once a given party line has been laid down on a given issue of current policy, the whole Soviet governmental machine, including the mechanism of diplomacy, moves inexorably along the prescribed path, like a persistent toy automobile wound up and headed in a give | [04:58] |
| mircea_popescu: | n direction, stopping only when it meets with some unanswerable force. The individuals who are the components of this machine are unamenable to argument or reason, which comes to them from outside sources. Their whole training has taught them to mistrust and discount the glib persuasiveness of the outside world. | [04:58] |
| mircea_popescu: | Like the white dog before the phonograph, they hear only the "master's voice." And if they are to be called off from the purposes last dictated to them, it is the master who must call them off." Thus the foreign representative cannot hope that his words will make any impression on them. The most that he can hope is that they will be transmitted to those at the top, who are capable of changing the party line. But even those | [04:58] |
| mircea_popescu: | are not likely to be swayed by any normal logic in the words of the bourgeois representative. Since there can be no appeal to common purposes, there can be no appeal to common mental approaches. | [04:58] |
| mircea_popescu: | and so following. | [04:58] |
| mircea_popescu: | "The present generation of Russians have never known spontaneity of collective action. If, consequently, anything were ever to occur to disrupt the unity and efficacy of the Party as a political instrument, Soviet Russia might be changed overnight from one of the strongest to one of the weakest and most pitiable of national societies." | [05:18] |
| spyked: | mircea_popescu, http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/tDzln/?raw=true | [09:49] |
| trinque: | mircea_popescu: ack | [10:25] |
| lobbes: | mircea_popescu: ack | [10:51] |
| phf: | ack | [11:01] |
| phf: | http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-25#1904652 << i'll look into reasons. i believe right now there's no caching of any kind, vpatch is pre-parsed in-memory, but the rendering happens fresh everytime. | [11:04] |
| a111: | Logged on 2019-03-25 12:37 mircea_popescu: phf, why does http://btcbase.org/patches/mp-wp_remove-tinymce-and-other-crud not look the same as http://btcbase.org/patches/mp-wp_html-comments-enabled ? i want ?inlinep=true FOREVAR!!!! | [11:04] |
| phf: | nginx knows how to cache items properly, but backend doesn't send proper headers yet, to indicate invalidation. there's really no reason anything in btcbase/patches needs to rerender itself everytime, but the relevant bits are not in place. | [11:05] |
| BingoBoingo: | In discoveries, Spain has a pantsuitist party named "Podemos" | [11:42] |
| mircea_popescu: | phf, on the other hand, re-rendering is not ~that~ expensive for text. | [11:46] |
| mircea_popescu: | spyked, http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/8l8Az/?raw=true | [12:26] |
| mircea_popescu: | diana_coman, http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/EZQdZ/?raw=true | [12:40] |
| feedbot: | http://qntra.net/2019/03/eu-parliament-endorses-new-copyrasty-regime/ << Qntra -- EU Parliament Endorses New Copyrasty Regime | [12:59] |
| feedbot: | http://qntra.net/2019/03/chicago-drops-all-16-felony-charges-against-hate-hoaxer-jussie-smollet/ << Qntra -- Chicago Drops All 16 Felony Charges Against Hate Hoaxer Jussie Smollet | [13:26] |
| mircea_popescu: | keks | [13:26] |
| mircea_popescu: | never happened, huh. ~SOCIAL~ JUSTICE!!! | [13:27] |
| BingoBoingo: | Well, Chicongo is an Obamaville | [13:36] |
| asciilifeform: | http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-26#1904773 << seems to me that kennan had a problem with http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-28#1704268 | [15:09] |
| a111: | Logged on 2019-03-26 08:58 mircea_popescu: nt: namely, the fact that the leadership is at liberty to put forward for tactical purposes any particular thesis which it finds useful to the cause at any particular moment and to require the faithful and unquestioning acceptance of that thesis by the members of the movement as a whole. This means that truth is not a constant but is actually created, for all intents and purposes, by the Soviet leaders themselves. It may v | [15:09] |
| a111: | Logged on 2017-08-28 23:10 mircea_popescu: kanzure " Obviously there is no possiblity of meaning outside of a structure of authority, and the authority can not be predicated on the meaning." | [15:09] |
| BingoBoingo: | In the saga of http://pizarroisp.net/?p=82&preview=true#selection-17.41-17.91 satisfaction has been recieved. | [15:09] |
| asciilifeform: | aaand in http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-26#1904776 , with http://btcbase.org/log/2014-08-12#792148 ... | [15:09] |
| a111: | Logged on 2019-03-26 08:58 mircea_popescu: n direction, stopping only when it meets with some unanswerable force. The individuals who are the components of this machine are unamenable to argument or reason, which comes to them from outside sources. Their whole training has taught them to mistrust and discount the glib persuasiveness of the outside world. | [15:09] |
| a111: | Logged on 2014-08-12 02:19 TimSwanson: Because that's how normal debates work | [15:09] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform, well yes, he's TS. | [15:10] |
| asciilifeform: | and i dun even know what to make of http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-26#1904780 -- wat 'collective action' exactly? | [15:10] |
| a111: | Logged on 2019-03-26 09:18 mircea_popescu: "The present generation of Russians have never known spontaneity of collective action. If, consequently, anything were ever to occur to disrupt the unity and efficacy of the Party as a political instrument, Soviet Russia might be changed overnight from one of the strongest to one of the weakest and most pitiable of national societies." | [15:10] |
| mircea_popescu: | you wanted an example of "red", did you ? | [15:10] |
| mircea_popescu: | dominant in the us, but in 19~47~ | [15:11] |
| asciilifeform: | i'll buy. ( mircea_popescu will also find it entertaining that kennan was ~the~ 'sovologist' taught in asciilifeform's ameri-school ) | [15:11] |
| mircea_popescu: | he was factually very influential "russian blue expert for to explain to american red how does the blue relate to me" | [15:11] |
| asciilifeform: | entirely tru | [15:12] |
| mircea_popescu: | BingoBoingo, cool deal then! | [15:12] |
| BingoBoingo: | I got the plata back. Picking up different beefier machine tomorrow from a vendor in centro. | [15:17] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: i pictured '1947 'red' not as kennan et al tho, but as e.g. patton, churchill, et al - the folx who were ready to rearm germany an' proceed straight into ww3, and had to be stfu'd by the brass strictly on acct of truman having insufficient nuke pile (iirc atm ~7 or so) | [15:17] |
| mircea_popescu: | i dont have a very clear view of patton but churchill is exactly as much a socialist as the whole temperance movement. he was unequivocally identified as such by ~all contemporaries, what, just because dumb soviet kid never heard of churchill other than for one newspaper notice dated 1945 this means something ? by the time hitler came to power churchill had been an openly socialist politician for a decade+ | [15:20] |
| asciilifeform: | i can't picture how to argue that c ~wasn't~ a socialist | [15:20] |
| mircea_popescu: | so i dunno that there's a substantial difference, ideologically, between kennan and churchill. | [15:21] |
| mircea_popescu: | the latter's a little more fopish and sophisticated, but then again the former's born in whichever unknown swamp amidst our colonies. | [15:21] |
| mircea_popescu: | in the words of their national anthem, "he puts a feather in his cap and calls it macaroni" | [15:22] |
| asciilifeform: | lolyes | [15:22] |
| asciilifeform: | (waithefuq did that stop being the official anthem, i wonder. it's entirely appropriate..) | [15:22] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: fwiw in sovokistan churchill is moar famous as architect of intervention in '18 | [15:23] |
| asciilifeform: | than for his '40s 2nd career | [15:24] |
| asciilifeform: | a la 'bob the bridge-builder' | [15:24] |
| mircea_popescu: | (likbez : as grand tours became popularized, in the interim before cook's mass commercialization thereof, a lot of 2nd hand british elite kids were exposed to italian fashion and atmosphere gained an appreciation of aforeunknown pasta, ie maccaroni, and started a whole epicene fashion including ridiculous dress and assorted faggotry. | [15:25] |
| asciilifeform: | 'aspirational product'(tm) or how did tlp put it | [15:25] |
| mircea_popescu: | poor but stupid yankee kids, hearing of something in that vein, imagined the ~same can be obtained not only very cheaply, but importantly using only items accessible -- the only enduring ideology of that place. and so... the yankee is moronic enough to act as if a feather suffices to be 2nd line english elite.) | [15:26] |
| mircea_popescu: | i dunno why don't they just put the "fuel economy magnets" people in congress directly. properly speaking, there's no other substance to "america". | [15:27] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: they moar or less ~are~ 'in congress directly' | [15:27] |
| mircea_popescu: | a ok then. | [15:27] |
| asciilifeform: | incidentally '50s usa had own version of term for 'aspirational product'. popular decoding of auto brand 'pontiac', famously, was 'poor old nigger thinks it's a cadillac' | [15:28] |
| BingoBoingo: | AHA | [15:30] |
| BingoBoingo: | That one survives | [15:30] |
| BingoBoingo: | Not the brand, but the decoding | [15:30] |
| mircea_popescu: | lol | [15:31] |
| asciilifeform: | re 'in congress directly' -- anyone recall the congressderp who had zombie-esque blue skin from taking 'colloidal silver' patent medicines ? | [15:31] |
| mircea_popescu: | yes! though not by name | [15:31] |
| asciilifeform: | iirc as recently as clinton era | [15:31] |
| mircea_popescu: | apparently idiots don't get names, they get collapsed into the tree of their stupidities. | [15:31] |
| asciilifeform: | https://archive.is/5MBP << possibly him | [15:33] |
| BingoBoingo: | In local lols: https://www.subrayado.com.uy/cubanos-desencantados-uruguay-acampan-frente-la-embajada-nicaragua-una-visa-irse-n529769 "Argumentan que nuestro país es caro y que la plata no les alcanza. Si bien reconocen que Nicaragua tiene dificultades, están más cerca de su país." | [15:48] |
| mircea_popescu: | keks someone wants to go to nicaragua! | [15:49] |
| mircea_popescu: | (they're prolly trying to get into costa rica illegally, as nobody here can distinguiush nicas and mexicans. but anyway) | [15:49] |
| bvt: | hello. i did not manage to finish work on mes report part 2 last week, and i don't have a possibility to do any work this week. i plan to finish it around weekend next week. | [15:53] |
| bvt: | linux bootstrap with actual mes is way more disappointingto stage0 components (the claim is 'c compiler is scheme and scheme interpreter in c', but in fact they require bash, patch, tar, etc. for the bootstrap). | [15:54] |
| asciilifeform: | bvt: seems like mircea_popescu's original eyeball verdict was 100% on target? i.e. 'mes' is a pile o'shit masquerading as they usually do for a solution | [15:55] |
| BingoBoingo: | mircea_popescu: Well, Cubans. | [15:55] |
| mircea_popescu: | bvt, did you identify any live ones among the authors/participants ? | [15:55] |
| mircea_popescu: | !#seen erlehmann | [15:57] |
| a111: | 2017-10-19 <erlehmann> good night | [15:57] |
| mircea_popescu: | what became of that dood, incidentally. | [15:57] |
| asciilifeform: | !#s esthlos | [15:57] |
| a111: | 509 results for "esthlos", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=esthlos | [15:57] |
| asciilifeform: | err, | [15:57] |
| asciilifeform: | !#seen esthlos | [15:57] |
| a111: | 2018-10-23 <esthlos> http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-19#1864316 << apologies alf, I'm running behind! trying to gather time to get caught up in the next week or two | [15:57] |
| asciilifeform: | ^ prolly went to same place. | [15:57] |
| bvt: | OriansJ in #bootstrappable has a notion of hygiene (at least basic, ie groks fits-in-head), and still works on the stage0 i had no interaction with janneke (mes author) yet, so can't make claims about him. he does make some noise in the #bootstrappable and #guix | [15:58] |
| mircea_popescu: | bvt, http://archive.is/febOU#selection-255.67-255.135 challenge specifically offers you excellent entry point : there's a bunch of contact details available, what's "me" resolve to as a provision endpoint. | [15:58] |
| asciilifeform: | pretty sad, imho : esthlos wrote a++ log summaries, a working vtron, possibly other items i cant recall | [15:59] |
| mircea_popescu: | myeah. | [15:59] |
| bvt: | asciilifeform: they claim that it is work-in-progress, but in fact c compiler that manages to compile tcc may be less then 10% of required work. | [16:01] |
| asciilifeform: | at least Framedragger was under the notion that he'd get to fuck mermaids at the bottom of his sea, or what was it. | [16:01] |
| bvt: | i also don't like how at the 'mes' stage a linux kernel 'magically' appears as the underlying substrape, while stage0 parts are designed to work without os | [16:02] |
| asciilifeform: | bvt: imo c is intrinsically broken ~conceptually~ as a bootstrapping lang ( entirely aside from how it is broken as a ~platform~ lang, re which subj asciilifeform has entire www... ) -- in that it intrinsically demands a massive pile of nickel and dime utils ( bash, 'make', etc ) to work as usable platform | [16:04] |
| mircea_popescu: | moreover, i dunno of any well working bootstrappers for whatever embedded / mircro / whatever you take application that actually bootstraps on c | [16:04] |
| asciilifeform: | bvt: the other thing, is the 3-ring circus aspect of elaborately dethompsonizing a box in order to... bring up 1M+line of linusolade | [16:05] |
| mircea_popescu: | i suspect though the earlier discussion of "what do we want for a scripting language" is deeply if unobviously related to "what is bootstrap done by" | [16:06] |
| bvt: | http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-26#1904859 << that 'me' was OriansJ, if wiki change log can be trusted | [16:06] |
| a111: | Logged on 2019-03-26 19:58 mircea_popescu: bvt, http://archive.is/febOU#selection-255.67-255.135 challenge specifically offers you excellent entry point : there's a bunch of contact details available, what's "me" resolve to as a provision endpoint. | [16:06] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: the 'bootstrap' concept in that thread was specifically re 'what coupla kB can you start with in rom that would actually let you build the entire os', rather than the traditional 'boot' process , not to be confused with | [16:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | bvt, so put the matter to him plainly, "look, the republic is considering this, either come over and make your case or what d oyou want to do" ? | [16:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform, yes. | [16:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | but look how it mirrors what we want from a putative tmsr.php or tmsr.xml or tmsr.tcl or w.e! | [16:08] |
| asciilifeform: | funnily enuff, e.g. ch18 peh actually worx as 'a php' (i.e. can do string substitutions and elementary arithmetics... ) | [16:09] |
| mircea_popescu: | quite. | [16:09] |
| mircea_popescu: | and it ~might~ even be a candidate bootstrap language. | [16:10] |
| asciilifeform: | somewhat heavy ram-wise for a general-purpose script lang tho | [16:10] |
| mircea_popescu: | no. because see, THAT is a false constraint. | [16:10] |
| mircea_popescu: | we don't need the bootstrapper to fit in x kb. | [16:10] |
| mircea_popescu: | that's in fact one of the few parts where the historical constraint bears no relevancy today. | [16:10] |
| asciilifeform: | oh thing per se could easily fit in coupla kb | [16:10] |
| asciilifeform: | problem is that you eat at least 256bit to add 1+1 | [16:11] |
| mircea_popescu: | i didn't mean the code, i meant the ram it needs to function. | [16:11] |
| bvt: | asciilifeform: yes, ending up with the same gnu stuff is pretty sad work result | [16:11] |
| mircea_popescu: | there's no hard and fast requirement that the bootstrapper needs to use less than the full system memory, which is mb in any case. | [16:11] |
| asciilifeform: | bvt: not merely 'sad result'. sad ~objective~. recall, it was his ~objective~ to bring up gnustack. | [16:11] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: there's other constraints, e.g. peh is quite certainly not optimized for random-access on large data set , there is no support for even such thing as array | [16:12] |
| mircea_popescu: | ie, being economical re bootstrap ram is one of the dumbest things i can think of. beats "penny wise and pound foolish" by 2+ degrees of magnitude in folly. | [16:12] |
| asciilifeform: | thing is really meant for sequential work on relatively compact items | [16:12] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform, hence ~might~. but anyways. | [16:13] |
| mircea_popescu: | it's not directly obvious to me that "random access" in this particular context is not disease sympthom. | [16:13] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: per the current instruction set, you could not write e.g. 'unzip' in it | [16:13] |
| mircea_popescu: | so ? | [16:13] |
| asciilifeform: | or a 2pass compiler. or anyffin that gotta walk a substantial length of bits >1ce | [16:14] |
| * asciilifeform | brb,teatime | [16:14] |
| mircea_popescu: | yet maybe you don't actually have to. | [16:14] |
| mircea_popescu: | i'm not disposing of the matter. i'm just keeping it open, and specifically because these sorts of things are by now reflex in the malfunctioning brains of "it experts". oh, small ram footprint of bootstrapper. oh, random access.\ | [16:15] |
| mircea_popescu: | oh fuck your sister atop your mother, whynot. | [16:15] |
| * mircea_popescu | will import by reference the story of mel. what "random access", it's onlty random if you don't know what you're doing and at bootstrap phase the item's too close to starting position to have complexity-exploded out of your hands already as a matter of necessity. | [16:18] |
| mircea_popescu: | the dood's historical blackjack playing program is a better model of "bootstrapper" than what you find in average "systems design" in orclang books. | [16:18] |
| mircea_popescu: | but in any case no such thing as "random" exists in the fucking machine --- if it did, you wouldn't need to buy fg's for it, now would you. | [16:22] |
| mircea_popescu: | obviously (i would hope) i'm not proposing any naive solution will necessarily work well i'm just saying that it's not obvious to me a smart solution isn't available somewhere. in point of fact not merely p, but ~the whole class of things for which it stands as a most illustrative example~ is, if arguably not new, in any case the continuation of work in fields and along lines neglected for at least three if not more than | [16:26] |
| mircea_popescu: | five decades.it's just not very well explored yet. | [16:26] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: the 'random' in 'random access' is imho an unfortunate misnomer. | [16:37] |
| asciilifeform: | rly oughta be 'arbitrary access' | [16:37] |
| mircea_popescu: | yes, it is, translates bizarre pantsuit notions of "randomness" nevertheless the point stands if renamed : arbitrary, and who's the arbiter ? Nike the goddess ? | [16:38] |
| bvt: | mircea_popescu: i'll try to get him into #trilema on the weekend | [16:38] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: re 'do you really need arbitrary access so often' : recall knuth's 'centerfold' page in vol.2 of aop | [16:38] |
| asciilifeform: | where he had the 'algos for N tape decks' | [16:38] |
| mircea_popescu: | for instance. | [16:38] |
| asciilifeform: | you can do a surprising amt with N tape decks that ordinarily 'demands randomaccess' | [16:38] |
| mircea_popescu: | because no, this is a cop-out, "oh, it's arbitrary". like the poorly trained cook, "arbitrary use of tools" | [16:38] |
| asciilifeform: | all of this being said, i suspect mircea_popescu would still barf if to e.g. fetch a trilema pg, 5km of tape had to move a full circle. | [16:40] |
| mircea_popescu: | but we are very specifically not discussing what to do to read trilema. we're discussing what to do at a relatively early stage of bootstrap! | [16:40] |
| asciilifeform: | ( recall incidentally the fate of 'bubble memory.' mega-invention, btw. d00d discovered that you dun need a tape deck to use tape, in a certain config of magnetic field, you can make the bits on tape ~walk~ in circles. and r/w'em as they move past a particular spot. ) | [16:41] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: right. and , interestingly, the coupla-1000fold diff b/w main ram speed and that of cache , on current-day irons, has just about brought back the age of tape algo | [16:42] |
| asciilifeform: | even if 'nobody knows it yet' | [16:42] |
| asciilifeform: | 'random access' is a very expensive illusion . | [16:42] |
| mircea_popescu: | this observation is a major driver of the foregoing. | [16:43] |
| mircea_popescu: | "nobody", except us. | [16:43] |
| asciilifeform: | in re peh in particular, the 'tape' model i picked consciously, and not simply in re the terminology to call the proggies 'tapes'. thing is built so that all motion is , albeit non-monotonically, forward ( e.g. subroutine can call another sub, but only one defined ~earlier on the tape~ from the place where called and all subs ~must~ either reach their termination point, or produce verdict & halt the process , there is no 'goto' ) | [16:46] |
| asciilifeform: | all subs have 1 valid termination point, there is no early 'return' ditto loops ( as of ch18 ) | [16:46] |
| asciilifeform: | all of this, is to 1) make easier to 'fit in head' the flow of a pehtape by eyeballing 2) reduce cachemiss sidechannel chatter | [16:47] |
| asciilifeform: | note that just about any iterative algo can be rewritten in this form. ( just that ~nobody ever bothers , typically ) | [16:52] |
| mircea_popescu: | it's also not yet so clear that it's worth doing. | [16:52] |
| mircea_popescu: | but perhaps this is the place to find out. | [16:53] |
| asciilifeform: | imho it's not only worth doing, but absolutely must be done if yer working with reasonably compact pieces of safety-critical proggy | [16:53] |
| mircea_popescu: | (note also, but importantly, that one doesn't have to write peh by hand anymore than he has to write asm by hand. there's perfectly conceivable one has an optimizing pehpiler.) | [16:53] |
| asciilifeform: | ( in fact ada per se has a fascism knob that, if set, prevents early return from subroutines . i have not thus far used, cuz in ffa per se this is already the case, nuffin gets to terminate early when 'constant time' algo ) | [16:54] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: it is entirely conceivable that someone may want to bake 'peh compiler' . but intent of design is specifically for it to be entirely usable without any such thing, with reasonable effort. | [16:55] |
| mircea_popescu: | no argument there.\ | [16:55] |
| asciilifeform: | ( peh per se is a 'peh compiler', arguably, in that it can and does produce peh tapes as output, this is how e.g. keygen worx ) | [16:55] |
| mircea_popescu: | but consider the converse problem : if it comes to it, am i going to order the re-implementation de novo of gcc's backend by republican hands ? why MUST it be c ? | [16:56] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform, yes! in the other perspective : BECAUSE IT IS ITS OWN BOOTSTRAPPER!!! | [16:56] |
| asciilifeform: | no good reason imho to try to keep c on life support in long term. it's done enuff damage to the field. | [16:57] |
| mircea_popescu: | if peh can be its own bootstrapper quite so transparently nobody notices, then maybe it is actually a good general purpose bootstrapping tool. maybe. | [16:57] |
| mircea_popescu: | in any case, a very tentative possible repoublican alternate machine can be already intuited : if p backend is welded to gccs frontends, one can code in ada (or c#, why not), compiler for p-machine and live happily ever after. | [16:59] |
| mircea_popescu: | "oh but mp, this is undemocratic -- some programming styles or high level assumptions will result in ~unusable tapes, 1mnx bloated". "precisely." "but this means not all programmers aree equal anymore". "duh" | [17:00] |
| asciilifeform: | i would not presently go as far as to say 'peh is ~the~ bootstrapper' ( current peh cannot even output a raw byte... ) but suspect that the solution will have approximately its shape. | [17:01] |
| mircea_popescu: | conceivably. | [17:01] |
| mircea_popescu: | as i said, i'd like to keep this open. | [17:02] |
| asciilifeform: | imo peh is considerably closer to a tabletop model for sane iron cpu, than to bootstrapper for x86 etc | [17:02] |
| mircea_popescu: | yet -- if it works as a bootstrapper it works as a bootstrapper and if it does not we understand why and wherefore. | [17:03] |
| mircea_popescu: | a most useful abstraction / model, in any cas.e | [17:03] |
| asciilifeform: | in re bootstrappers, i'll also add that the problem itself is disastrously misunderstood by most folx who tried hand at it, specifically in http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-18#1903170 | [17:04] |
| a111: | Logged on 2019-03-18 15:31 asciilifeform: http://bvt-trace.net/2019/03/mes-part-1-stage0/#selection-29.94-29.340 << imho ~100% of the attempts on record , made exactly same mistake -- they assumed that 'architecture-specific aspects creep into the design of the boostrapping process' only concerns ~what is there~ in the arch, and not ~what is not there~ (e.g. sane memory management, type tags) . if you dun put the complexity of certain necessary sanities where it belongs -- i | [17:04] |
| mircea_popescu: | hence the profanity. | [17:04] |
| asciilifeform: | there was an old mircea_popescu piece , where , 'some people - stupid in particular way, and think that if they buy big enuff house, it will never have to be cleaned' | [17:05] |
| asciilifeform: | the 'bootstrap to c + linux' people make this exact mistake. 'look, i wrote this compact bootstrapper, nao i can breathe out and start wallowing in my familiar pointerolade an' nulltermstrings pigsty again' | [17:06] |
| asciilifeform: | http://btcbase.org/log/2014-08-20#801609 << oblig re subj | [17:07] |
| a111: | Logged on 2014-08-20 01:01 asciilifeform: ' like a refugee from very rural Pakistan who gets relocated to Oslo, Norway, and still thinks that he could make better food if he were only allowed to light a fire in his living room instead of using that complex electric stove. (This is a real news item. Every now and then, landlords discover indoor fireplaces and occasionally the newbies to civilization burn down the building.)' (herr naggum) | [17:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | meanwhile since we're doing this kinda thing, let me reiterrate the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-13#1886466 discussion. | [17:10] |
| a111: | Logged on 2019-01-13 14:29 mircea_popescu: this is a matter of best practices that's by its nature a republican standard candidate, so i'd very much like to hear the esteemed lordship. | [17:10] |
| BingoBoingo: | It's an interesting road. | [17:12] |
| mircea_popescu: | in another order : an ada prototype for db interaction, at the very least with mysql and postgres, would probably get imported into a lot of projects. anyone has one unpublished ? anyone wanna write ? | [17:15] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: as i understand , this one would need either tcpism (not written yet) or unixsocketism (also afaik not written, aside from the sad adacorpse implementation in gnat std lib) | [17:17] |
| mircea_popescu: | it'd require something, that's for sure. | [17:18] |
| mircea_popescu: | but in point of fact we gotta weld ada to db already, what. | [17:18] |
| asciilifeform: | ideally what you'd want imho is a sane db solidly in ada, rather than coupla mil+ loc of c ??? . but this may be bridge too far just yet. | [17:18] |
| mircea_popescu: | aha. | [17:18] |
| diana_coman: | if it's about wants, I can throw in that I want a sane computer already! | [17:18] |
| asciilifeform: | asciilifeform's mmap thing (ideally a working ver of the latest iteration, but even the original 'horsecocks') already gives ability to write simple , fast db, for uncomplicated schemas | [17:19] |
| mircea_popescu: | yes well. so does my pen. | [17:19] |
| asciilifeform: | ( in the last iteration , the 1 that presently dun build on acct of gnat bug , you simply make any data structure you like in ada, and it persists to disk. ) | [17:20] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: not at 'pen' stage , but prototyped, iirc i posted an example with trad btc tx. | [17:20] |
| mircea_popescu: | yes man, but trad dbs do a lot of things, including http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-15#1872293 i can appreciate the "fuck this mn lines of c" argument, but this isn't the time to feather-macaroni just yet. | [17:22] |
| a111: | Logged on 2018-11-15 02:29 asciilifeform: phuctor ( and in particular, some of the 'heavier' / unusual pheatures, like search ) i baked specifically around postgres. | [17:22] |
| asciilifeform: | they do. | [17:25] |
| asciilifeform: | having since '13 when 1st touched the subj, actually rftm'd, i'm not even prepared to say that 'who needs all those things' | [17:26] |
| asciilifeform: | but i also suspect that even 'all those things' dun actually require mil+ loc. | [17:27] |
| asciilifeform: | if sanely architected on sane abstration tower. | [17:27] |
| mircea_popescu: | no argument there also so far, let's just first get a wrapper. | [17:28] |
| mircea_popescu: | can use mmap etc to fix the substance later. | [17:28] |
| asciilifeform: | shortest path to wrapper would be a http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2557 -style skin for unixsocketism. | [17:29] |
| asciilifeform: | then can talk to mysql etc. just like trinque's cl proggy does | [17:29] |
| asciilifeform: | i'll add that even a tcp skin wouldn't be entirely useless ( right nao the only way to write a wwwistic proggy in ada is to use adacorpse's 'gnatsockets' crock of shit ) | [17:31] |
| asciilifeform: | and not only wwwistic, but e.g. irc bot | [17:31] |
| mircea_popescu: | might tbe a better route, esp if it delivers a cheap way to a tcp-based republican web, to replace the www. | [17:31] |
| asciilifeform: | asciilifeform sees tcp as a legacy tech, really | [17:32] |
| asciilifeform: | rather than reasonable foundation for anyffin new | [17:32] |
| asciilifeform: | but prolly cannot escape to have a glue for it, while we sit on irc , load www for various uses, etc | [17:32] |
| asciilifeform: | http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-26#1904962 << not to let this escape i'd actually be quite interested to read diana_coman's own thoughts re what is a sane comp. ( asciilifeform wrote at great length re the subj, would also like to see where folx disagree / expand ) | [17:49] |
| a111: | Logged on 2019-03-26 21:18 diana_coman: if it's about wants, I can throw in that I want a sane computer already! | [17:49] |
| asciilifeform: | ftr i do not have any notion that http://www.loper-os.org/?p=284 is 'last word on subj' | [17:50] |
| asciilifeform: | if nuffin else, some of asciilifeform's demands re 'sane comp' are in architectural tension with others ( rather like to ask 'i want sword that cuts other swords, but isn't brittle' ) | [17:52] |
| * asciilifeform | currently suspects that '1 sane comp for all problem domains' is a misapprehension of the problem, and that '1 for crypto, 1 for other things' is merely the beginning of it. | [18:04] |
| asciilifeform: | theoretically what is 'sane' for machine to fiddle with proggies on, is not appropriate for server, or for ciphertron, etc | [18:04] |
| asciilifeform: | ( to take simple example, you defo want cache on server, but it is absolutely lethal on ciphertron ) | [18:09] |
| asciilifeform: | the 'meta-sanity' arguably is that operator oughta be able to at least switch off the cache. ( you cannot, e.g., on x86, switch off l0 cache ) | [18:11] |
| asciilifeform: | likewise, operator at least oughta have the ~option~ of 'all MULs take same # of cycles', even if no one wants this on server. | [18:12] |
| asciilifeform: | ( incidentally, 'can redefine cpu instructions in boot rom for custom kompyooting' dun require fpga etc. fancy modern tech, e.g. dec alpha had it ) | [18:13] |
| asciilifeform: | ben_vulpes: mimi down ? | [18:14] |
| feedbot: | http://bimbo.club/2019/03/philosophical-transactions-for-the-months-of-june-july-and-august-1715-part-i/ << Bimbo.Club -- Philosophical Transactions. For the months of June, July and August, 1715. - Part I. | [18:23] |
| mod6: | mircea_popescu: ack | [18:36] |
| asciilifeform: | wb Mocky | [20:51] |
| Mocky: | thx asciilifeform | [20:51] |
| Mocky: | I'm going to finish moving my blog over to mpwp this week. I expect I'll need some pizarro assistance for go-live. Then Imma post remaining handful of Qatar posts, including video of my address to Doha derpchain gathering. | [20:55] |
| Mocky: | after that i'll have free hands looking for somthing to do | [20:55] |
| asciilifeform: | Mocky: neato | [20:55] |
| Mocky: | i suppose learning v will be in order | [20:58] |
| asciilifeform: | Mocky: the likbez by ben_vulpes is still imho the gold standard | [20:58] |
| asciilifeform: | ( even tho it is about the ancient proof of concept vtron, with old-style hashes etc., re the basic mechanics it is still 100% correct ) | [20:59] |
| asciilifeform: | imho v is the simplest, mechanically, versionatron ever baked. so i dun expect Mocky will have much of problem | [21:00] |
| Mocky: | I think I get it but havn't used yet, other than a trb build from online that didn't require much thinking. | [21:02] |
| asciilifeform: | !!up pehbot | [21:07] |
| deedbot: | pehbot voiced for 30 minutes. | [21:07] |
| asciilifeform: | !A @foo@[foo].0{} QY | [21:07] |
| pehbot: | asciilifeform: EGGOG: FATAL: Tick: 14 IP: 14 Symbol: '' : Conditional Return in Sub: 'foo' is Prohibited! (Please check for unbalanced '{'.)' | [21:07] |
| asciilifeform: | !A @foo@[foo].1, ! QY | [21:08] |
| pehbot: | asciilifeform: EGGOG: FATAL: Tick: 24 IP: 13 Symbol: ',' : Currently in a Subroutine but this Op exits a Loop state ! | [21:08] |
| asciilifeform: | !A : QY | [21:09] |
| pehbot: | asciilifeform: EGGOG: FATAL: Tick: 2 IP: 2 Symbol: '' : Currently in a Loop state but this Op exits a Subroutine ! | [21:09] |
| asciilifeform: | ^ final draft of ch18. | [21:09] |
| asciilifeform: | !A @foo@[foo][] ! QY | [21:09] |
| pehbot: | asciilifeform: foo | [21:09] |
| asciilifeform: | !A @foo@[foo]([]) ! QY | [21:09] |
| pehbot: | asciilifeform: foo | [21:09] |
| asciilifeform: | ^ does Right Thing . | [21:09] |
| asciilifeform: | i'ma leave the bot alive nao , for if anyone wants to play. | [21:10] |
| BingoBoingo: | <Mocky> I'm going to finish moving my blog over to mpwp this week. I expect I'll need some pizarro assistance for go-live. Then Imma post remaining handful of Qatar posts, including video of my address to Doha derpchain gathering. << Let me know what you need | [21:10] |
| asciilifeform: | !A @foo@.3R* .3!!!# | [21:13] |
| pehbot: | asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000051 | [21:13] |
| Mocky: | BingoBoingo: once i get everything imported to my satisfaction on mockyhabeeb.com I'd like to cut over to mocky.org, so apache config I think | [21:14] |
| asciilifeform: | !A @aa@[a].7:!.1-",_ @bb@[b].5:!.1-",_ .3:[c]!.1-",_ | [21:15] |
| pehbot: | asciilifeform: EGGOG: FATAL: Tick: 59 IP: 11 Symbol: '!' : No Subroutines were defined prior to this position! | [21:15] |
| asciilifeform: | err | [21:16] |
| asciilifeform: | !A @aa@[a].7:.1-",_ @bb@[b].5:!.1-",_ .3:[c]!.1-",_ | [21:16] |
| pehbot: | asciilifeform: cbaaaaacbaaaaacbaaaaa | [21:16] |
| BingoBoingo: | Mocky: Aite, just let me know when | [21:16] |
| Mocky: | will do | [21:16] |
| asciilifeform: | !A @aa@[a] LC @bb@[b]@aa! RC @bb! | [21:17] |
| pehbot: | asciilifeform: ba | [21:17] |
| asciilifeform: | !A @aa@[a] LC @bb@[b]@aa! RC @aa! | [21:17] |
| pehbot: | asciilifeform: EGGOG: FATAL: Tick: 32 IP: 32 Symbol: '!' : Attempted movement to IP: 5 violates the Cutout! | [21:17] |
| asciilifeform: | ^ the Right Thing. | [21:17] |
| asciilifeform: | that's pretty much it. | [21:17] |
| asciilifeform: | ffa_calc.adb : 1665 loc . | [21:18] |
| Mocky: | peh looks quite interesting | [21:18] |
| asciilifeform: | !A @aa@.7:[a].1-",_ @bb@[b].5:!.1-",_ .3:[c]!.1-",_ | [21:21] |
| pehbot: | asciilifeform: cbaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaacbaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaacbaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa | [21:21] |
| asciilifeform: | !A @aa@.7:[a].1-",_ @bb@.5:[b]!.1-",_ .3:[c]!.1-",_ | [21:22] |
| pehbot: | asciilifeform: cbaaaaaaabaaaaaaabaaaaaaabaaaaaaabaaaaaaacbaaaaaaabaaaaaaabaaaaaaabaaaaaaabaaaaaaacbaaaaaaabaaaaaaabaaaaaaabaaaaaaabaaaaaaa | [21:22] |
| asciilifeform: | aanyway | [21:22] |
| asciilifeform: | Mocky: most battlefield pehtapes , i expect, will be ~much~ easier to read than these ( e.g. will include comments, an' meaningful names ) . these, are simply micro demos that fit in log line | [21:23] |
| asciilifeform: | at some pt i'ma publish the emacs majormode for editing pehs. it is ~much~ easier with colours etc | [21:28] |
| asciilifeform: | but imho 1st it oughta become 'second nature' for the n00b , to read the examples with naked eye | [21:29] |
| Mocky: | indeed so | [21:29] |
| asciilifeform: | it oughta be , after study, entirely obvious from single eyeball walk why each 1 does what it does | [21:29] |
| asciilifeform: | any given piece of peh tape cannot refer to anything that lies to the right of it, ergo 1 walk suffices | [21:31] |
| mircea_popescu: | Mocky, pressing something's a good idea, for sure, even if it's just some patches on mp-wp chain say. | [21:31] |
| mircea_popescu: | item should be ~the most accessible if i had to guess. | [21:32] |
| mircea_popescu: | but otherwise, what sounds good ? you wanna do the ada db wrapper for instance ? | [21:32] |
| mircea_popescu: | or you wanna try your hand at http://trilema.com/2019/the-freenode-issue/#comment-128270 ? | [21:33] |
| Mocky: | ada sounds good. I'm not sure if db wrapper is a good starting point though, maybe work up to it | [21:37] |
| Mocky: | start with perhaps: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-26#1904977 | [21:42] |
| a111: | Logged on 2019-03-26 21:31 asciilifeform: i'll add that even a tcp skin wouldn't be entirely useless ( right nao the only way to write a wwwistic proggy in ada is to use adacorpse's 'gnatsockets' crock of shit ) | [21:42] |
| mircea_popescu: | that could work, sure. | [21:43] |
| mircea_popescu: | other than that, a) if you'd rather mostly deal with c legacy codebase you could also work with diana_coman on an eulora client b) if you'd rather do evanghelism work the original job in the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-19#1903518 line is still open -- you could work to advertise your castle in heathenworld (leverages pizarro directly and if you're serious about not leaving the ushithole you can incorporate it regula | [21:45] |
| a111: | Logged on 2019-03-19 23:18 mircea_popescu: if anyone recalls, at that time the intended republic-sponsored kegger party at the site of some anti-usg rebellion died over portland's apparent failure to produce beer & sluts under ben_vulpes 's direction. | [21:45] |
| mircea_popescu: | rly as a church and all that line). | [21:45] |
| mircea_popescu: | ie, there's a lot both tech and non tech holes to fill. | [21:46] |
| Mocky: | I am serious about finding a way out of mordor. I'm interested in both tech & non tech hole filling: giving the matter due consideration so as to avoid http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-21#1828117 | [21:54] |
| a111: | Logged on 2018-06-21 16:22 mircea_popescu: if you just run by whatever shines you'll get overwhelmed and then depressed at how the sand sucks effort with no visible return. | [21:54] |
| mircea_popescu: | well, im not sure i follow whats going on, but didn't you execute a 1. i must pay dubaloos so and so a month to landlord therefore -> 2. i must take job in empire and thus logically -> 3. gotta live there ? | [21:55] |
| Mocky: | I did. And now I'm going to find a way out that doesn't involve poverty. | [21:58] |
| mircea_popescu: | so basically what you're saying is that you're only firmly decided to stay in us for the ~mid term~ as opposed to "more than that" ? | [22:00] |
| Mocky: | Yes. and also firmly decided to make the mid term as short as possible | [22:01] |
| mircea_popescu: | well, mid term is mid term, what, three, five, ten years. none of the items described there are longer commitments anyway, you can totally get a church going in the mid term -- if it goes anywhere i'm sure there'll be who wants to take over if / when you feel like leaving. | [22:01] |
| Mocky: | i have no objection to that line of thinking | [22:02] |
| mircea_popescu: | basically the discriminant there was "decided to staay or leave ? if stay, x, if leave, dunno, maybe go to paraguay see if can help bingo get that hardware shop off the ground or something" | [22:03] |
| mircea_popescu: | (i kinda suspect BingoBoingo would do a lot better with a partner on the grounds, tbh) | [22:04] |
| mircea_popescu: | uruguay* | [22:04] |
| Mocky: | staying in mordor for now. | [22:06] |
| mircea_popescu: | aite, well, see what works for you! | [22:07] |
| Mocky: | is this that evanglism thing? http://btcbase.org/log/2014-05-15#675799 | [22:09] |
| a111: | Logged on 2014-05-15 04:08 benkay: http://www.followthecoin.com/dogepdx-portlands-biggest-dogecoin-party/ | [22:09] |
| mircea_popescu: | naah. | [22:10] |
| mircea_popescu: | the original discussion was, sec lemme find it... | [22:11] |
| mircea_popescu: | http://btcbase.org/log/2016-01-03#1359583 << there. | [22:11] |
| a111: | Logged on 2016-01-03 12:57 mircea_popescu is contemplating paying for some kegers. | [22:11] |
| Mocky: | ahh, thx | [22:11] |
| mircea_popescu: | the context was, some farmers were disputing usg's territorial claim, and it'd have been a decent opportunity for some keks. free beer, collegiate sluts, get a party going, let the landsknecht deal wirth it | [22:12] |
| mircea_popescu: | (same exact blueprint that's working quite so splendidly to embarass french pantsuit these days, exactly) | [22:12] |
| mircea_popescu: | item crumpled over absent grassroots. not that it's hard to remedy : get a church registered, organize donation campaigns, get some real estate and run events off it, there you go. | [22:13] |
| mircea_popescu: | the place is quite ripe for it, on one hand lots and lots and lots of useless and idle youth, on the other hand large paper fortunes desperate for some protection. can very well get paid to "protect the household" while selling tickets to rape the wife, it's 100% a opera buffa sorta sittuation. | [22:16] |
| Mocky: | "go to qatar" "start a church" ... crazy shit I tell you | [22:17] |
| mircea_popescu: | all that's needed is the proper an' adequate supply of pippins der kurzen | [22:17] |
| mircea_popescu: | Mocky, i'm just laying it on the table, plainly. i'm not trying to force you into nonsense. | [22:17] |
| Mocky: | I only say that because on some level it appeals | [22:18] |
| Mocky: | what's pippins der kurzen? | [22:18] |
| mircea_popescu: | yeah. but the contrary consideration's certainly sound, "let's do things in the order they can be done in, as opposed to any other." | [22:18] |
| mircea_popescu: | Mocky, pepin the short was the original carolingian king of the franks. started career as exactly that, "being paid to guard the household while selling tickets to rape the wives" | [22:19] |
| mircea_popescu: | "mayor of the palace", whatever. | [22:20] |
| Mocky: | I had a dream 3 nights ago that I walked down a row of 4 houses and banged on each door as I went past yelling "send our your oldest girl" and the doors all opened and 4 female lions came running out as if to chase and attack me. But I stared them down and told them they are with me now. Apparently they were talking lions because they all said "ok" and then followed me as I walked off. | [22:23] |
| mircea_popescu: | is this you trying your hand at mosesing ? | [22:24] |
| Mocky: | actual dream. and now i'm heading to bed | [22:24] |
| mircea_popescu: | anyway, i'm sure you can get decent chunks of dubaloos directly from fiat "government" for "outreach work with disadvantaged youth". | [22:24] |
| mircea_popescu: | same exact youth that then go and bludgeon police into the ground. rinse, repeat, scale up, take over. | [22:25] |
| mircea_popescu: | and nighty-night. | [22:25] |
Category: Logs
