Forum logs for 25 Sep 2018
| mircea_popescu: | ah | [02:15] |
| mircea_popescu: | i... don't do that. | [02:15] |
| mircea_popescu: | and no, most boxes speak 1mn:1 more to the net than to me. and if this weren't the case, i wouldn't keep 'em. | [02:20] |
| deedbot: | http://trilema.com/2018/the-urban-rural-dichotomy-in-terms-of-the-cycles-of-power/ << Trilema - The urban-rural dichotomy in terms of the cycles of power | [03:45] |
| diana_coman: | http://trilema.com/forum-logs-for-24-sep-2018#2477508 -> so max len goes down to 2048? | [04:58] |
| a111: | Logged on 2018-09-24 19:43 mircea_popescu: diana_coman it occurs to me the work might also be misspecced. anyone have serious objections to moving to 1-2048 down from 1-65536 ? | [04:58] |
| diana_coman: | http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-24#1853827 -> sounds at least like something worth getting some data on, yes I wouldn't even be surprised if ~any frag results in mostly lost packets | [05:06] |
| a111: | Logged on 2018-09-24 20:17 asciilifeform: well yes : conceivably 'frags in 2' worx ~100% of time, but 'in 8' not etc | [05:06] |
| deedbot: | http://bimbo.club/?p=28 << Bimbo.Club - TMSR Log Summary - 9/19/2018 | [05:19] |
| diana_coman: | http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-25#1854219 -> tiny new pilot test seems to suggest it's not as bad as that: all 100 packets of a batch (sent in burst mode, no delays) made it, with pseudo-randomly chosen sizes between 6 and 2048 predictably though, order was messed up at times | [07:12] |
| a111: | Logged on 2018-09-25 09:06 diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-24#1853827 -> sounds at least like something worth getting some data on, yes I wouldn't even be surprised if ~any frag results in mostly lost packets | [07:12] |
| diana_coman: | following from the above: currently order and order-mismatches *can* be calculated at data analysis time based on the 2 logs alternatively, I could add another 2 octets to the tester's own header to store an order number so receiver can also report directly any order-mismatch - not sure if that's worth it though, any thoughts on it? | [07:13] |
| diana_coman: | ftr tester sends as above payloads between 6 and 2048 rather than 0 and 2048 because the first 6 octets are the header part (things like size sent and time when sent) | [07:14] |
| diana_coman: | for completeness, the logs from the new pilot test: sender log is http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/SdU8P/?raw=true and corresponding receiver log is http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/OXUWa/?raw=true | [07:20] |
| diana_coman: | the last column in the receiver log is now a count of payload octets that are different from what is expected - if any such octets are observed, the receiver will log now their actual position + value in a different log file so far I haven't seen any error of this type | [07:22] |
| diana_coman: | the pilot test is UK -> UY (same as yesterday's) | [07:23] |
| diana_coman: | uhm, correction re above since I messed up the pilot test earlier (sender sent 100 as shown, but receiver waited for only 50 and then turned off so not much use) updated pilot test with receiver properly looping forever and sender sending 100 packets: 81 of those made it sender log: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/zs4p5/?raw=true receiver log: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/4qiPb/?raw=true | [08:30] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: i suspect that the % of surviving fragged packets will drop as you saturate the link ( with e.g. GB thrown at line speed ) | [08:34] |
| asciilifeform: | esp if all fragged ( e.g. test with size of 2048 strictly ) | [08:35] |
| diana_coman: | I can certainly run such a test too if we want to check that specific situation now that I got ~everything in place, knobs can be easily turned for sure | [08:36] |
| asciilifeform: | i strongly suspect that heavy (i.e. always-fragged) packets are not ultimately a bw win | [08:37] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: have you tried in reverse path ? | [08:38] |
| diana_coman: | logically speaking, one wouldn't expect them to be, no the foggiest part atm for me is that interval from ~512 up to ~1500 | [08:39] |
| asciilifeform: | possibly 508 | [08:39] |
| asciilifeform: | but yes | [08:39] |
| diana_coman: | no, I am still fuzzing about but will try in a bit | [08:40] |
| asciilifeform: | aite, i'ma not distract then | [08:40] |
| * asciilifeform | bbl | [08:40] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: lemme know btw if you'd like to send me the sender and do a packet survival run to/from asciilifeformistan | [09:37] |
| diana_coman: | will do I can think of a few other routes as well but possibly first have it run on one route for a while and then expand | [10:07] |
| mod6: | mornin' | [10:20] |
| diana_coman: | hi mod6 ! | [10:25] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform, ftr, just ran a batch 100 packets from UY to UK and... 19 made it! oh boy | [10:27] |
| mod6: | 81 just vanished? | [10:31] |
| diana_coman: | but it does seem to be just too much for local setup/saturating basically | [10:32] |
| diana_coman: | mod6, yes! onth a batch of 20 packets only rather than 100 made it fully | [10:33] |
| diana_coman: | even 41/50 | [10:34] |
| mod6: | the missing ones didn't hit the interface either? i.e. they were lost in transit, not once they hit your interface? | [10:36] |
| diana_coman: | mod6, as far as I can tell they got lost in transit but I don't know *how close* to the machine itself (this UK machine is behind a router, I've set up port forwarding for it) basically atm the UK->UY vs UY->UK is pretty much client->server vs server-> client communication | [10:40] |
| mod6: | Ah. running tcpdump at all to log the traffic? | [10:41] |
| diana_coman: | I had tcpdump sniffing at same time and it reported same 19, not more | [10:42] |
| mod6: | huh, weird. | [10:42] |
| mod6: | any chance that the data got consolidated into less packets? | [10:43] |
| diana_coman: | tbh if anything I start suspecting at most the router | [10:44] |
| diana_coman: | I wanted to run this because it mimics much closer eulora client<->server communications but otherwise might set up different end nodes | [10:45] |
| mod6: | *nod* | [10:52] |
| mod6: | overall, sounds like you're making decent progress tho | [10:52] |
| diana_coman: | from the previous UK->UY run, here's the latest version of logs (new: counter so that order of packages can be followed more easily): sender log http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/zktb9/?raw=true receiver log http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/2YPqs/?raw=true | [10:54] |
| asciilifeform: | btw i'd like to share an old asciilifeform algo not sure if directly applicable to diana_coman's proggy, but may come in handy: for synchronous packetron. to determine when to resend a packet, you wait time T T is initially a pessimistic value, e.g. 800 msec but once you start getting responses, you set it at all times to the ~minimal~ response delay observed thus far. and if reply wait exceeds T, you resend & restart the clock. | [10:55] |
| diana_coman: | mod6, certainly I'll wait pretty much for any feedback on it all and otherwise it's quite ready to run for a week or more (receiver always on, sender as some hourly cron taks) | [10:56] |
| diana_coman: | task, lol | [10:56] |
| asciilifeform: | ( naturally this is only applicable to synchronous, i.e. A->B, B->A, A->B, .... , comms ) | [10:56] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform, that sounds very useful for eulora clients basically | [10:56] |
| asciilifeform: | possibly it it obvious algo. but wanted to put for the l0gz. | [10:57] |
| diana_coman: | if/when they wait for specific replies | [10:57] |
| diana_coman: | sure | [10:57] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform, any feedback re latest logs? anything else you'd want in there? | [10:57] |
| asciilifeform: | it makes for a slower than elsewise , but rearrangement-insensitive link | [10:57] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: i'd like to see a test where there is only 1 size, across various sizes, if possible | [10:57] |
| * asciilifeform | looks at the data from earlier | [10:58] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: can you set it display the ones that ~didn't~ make it | [10:59] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform, well, how can it know? i.e. they might come...later, no? | [10:59] |
| asciilifeform: | afaik if it doesn't show up in a sec or so, it's gone | [11:00] |
| asciilifeform: | there is not afaik a carrier pigeon link in use somewhere. | [11:00] |
| diana_coman: | isn't this something more for next step at data analysis? (i.e. minus the two logs and highlight missing stuff) | [11:01] |
| asciilifeform: | sure | [11:01] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: afaik, the remaining fundamental variants are 1) single-sized volleys, for various sizes 2) this, and the earlier variant, at max possible saturation | [11:03] |
| asciilifeform: | 1 will more clearly show effect of frag, imho | [11:04] |
| asciilifeform: | ( right now you get away with occasional frag, but possibly strictly because preceded/followed by unfragged, etc ) | [11:04] |
| diana_coman: | aha meanwhile playing here with the dubious UY->UK direction and I'd say it's pretty clear that bursts of more than 50 packets or so increase packet loss visibly I suppose this makes for a nice thing to look at specifically once I get one week of data or so | [11:05] |
| asciilifeform: | i suspect this'll be very frag-sensitive | [11:06] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform, apparently there is also various sizes bursts | [11:06] |
| asciilifeform: | ( upstack -- one of the wins from synchronous variant is that you never saturate the link ) | [11:07] |
| diana_coman: | got 31/75 even when all sizes were below 300 | [11:07] |
| asciilifeform: | interesting | [11:08] |
| asciilifeform: | and about on par with asciilifeform's experience | [11:08] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: i have a suspicion that saturation bursts trigger anti-ddos hackolade in some places | [11:17] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform, that sounds possible | [11:17] |
| * diana_coman | will bbl | [11:17] |
| asciilifeform: | i picture the end product as something like tcp but without the retardations. | [11:22] |
| asciilifeform: | ( i.e. without the plaintext control messages, where any thirdparty derp can close your connection, infer contents via burst lengths, etc ) | [11:23] |
| mircea_popescu: | http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-25#1854224 << i don't think it is. | [11:37] |
| a111: | Logged on 2018-09-25 11:13 diana_coman: following from the above: currently order and order-mismatches *can* be calculated at data analysis time based on the 2 logs alternatively, I could add another 2 octets to the tester's own header to store an order number so receiver can also report directly any order-mismatch - not sure if that's worth it though, any thoughts on it? | [11:37] |
| mircea_popescu: | http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-25#1854229 << ok this sounds more along expectations, (because "all made it" had me going wtf over here). so yeah, 80%ish sounds like we're finally in the right range, measuring something. | [11:39] |
| a111: | Logged on 2018-09-25 12:30 diana_coman: uhm, correction re above since I messed up the pilot test earlier (sender sent 100 as shown, but receiver waited for only 50 and then turned off so not much use) updated pilot test with receiver properly looping forever and sender sending 100 packets: 81 of those made it sender log: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/zs4p5/?raw=true receiver log: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/4qiPb/?raw=true | [11:39] |
| mircea_popescu: | http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-25#1854241 <<< shes gonna publish the code with the first batch of results, so anyone can / everyone's invited to replicate. | [11:40] |
| a111: | Logged on 2018-09-25 13:37 asciilifeform: diana_coman: lemme know btw if you'd like to send me the sender and do a packet survival run to/from asciilifeformistan | [11:40] |
| mircea_popescu: | look for next blogpost :D | [11:40] |
| mod6: | cool | [11:46] |
| mircea_popescu: | http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-25#1854271 << that's what this is, dood. same size sent every hour "accross possible sizes" | [11:57] |
| a111: | Logged on 2018-09-25 14:57 asciilifeform: diana_coman: i'd like to see a test where there is only 1 size, across various sizes, if possible | [11:57] |
| mircea_popescu: | http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-25#1854282 << i don't get it, 50 packets / hour is less than 1 per minute. this can't saturate anything. are you doing the burst in the sense of just dumping all the packets on the interface in 2 s and waiting the 3598 other s idle ? | [11:58] |
| a111: | Logged on 2018-09-25 15:05 diana_coman: aha meanwhile playing here with the dubious UY->UK direction and I'd say it's pretty clear that bursts of more than 50 packets or so increase packet loss visibly I suppose this makes for a nice thing to look at specifically once I get one week of data or so | [11:58] |
| mircea_popescu: | add a 1s delay between packets. | [11:58] |
| mircea_popescu: | http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-25#1854293 << tcp is truly a worthless piece of crap. the more one looks at it, the more one doesn't want anyone involved with it anywhere near his shit. | [11:59] |
| a111: | Logged on 2018-09-25 15:23 asciilifeform: ( i.e. without the plaintext control messages, where any thirdparty derp can close your connection, infer contents via burst lengths, etc ) | [11:59] |
| phf: | ave1: just fyi i punted on trying to get it operational on a "recent" linux. i hacked around the isystem issue, and ran into something else entirely downstream. also it is a "recent" linux issue, because it builds fine on as-heathen-as-it-gets centos 6.7 (2016 or so) | [12:00] |
| phf: | my guess as to the issue is that the combination of flags required in order to bring up a "bootstrap" system has changed, bootstrap process produces a build that fails to stand on its own | [12:01] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: the braindamage of tcp, iirc, is elaborated in buncha old threads | [12:07] |
| asciilifeform: | ( and there's megatonnes of shit iceberg beneath the tip, look some time at an actual implementation... ) | [12:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | phf paste the spew ? | [12:10] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform i've been on and off looking through for the past coupla weeks. | [12:11] |
| mircea_popescu: | "Bingoboingo is being questioned about having two imports" hahaha this girl. | [12:15] |
| BingoBoingo: | lol | [12:15] |
| mircea_popescu: | hanbot any clue why the selection trick dun work on nicoleci 's blog ? was this not in the tree or ? | [12:15] |
| asciilifeform: | !#s from:asciilifeform tcp | [12:15] |
| a111: | 158 results for "from:asciilifeform tcp", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=from%3Aasciilifeform%20tcp | [12:15] |
| BingoBoingo: | <mircea_popescu> hanbot any clue why the selection trick dun work on nicoleci 's blog ? was this not in the tree or ? << It isn't in the mpwp v-tree, no | [12:16] |
| mircea_popescu: | nicoleci "Discussion on if" is stylistically damaged. | [12:16] |
| mircea_popescu: | "Discussion on how mircea_popescu does not like the new extension (v), as it fragments the sensata-perceptible identity of the v" << this is so fucking cute. what's sensata-perceptible, bimbo ? | [12:16] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: 'catalogue of tcp braindamage' is prolly ripe for an article. ( sadly asciilifeform is mired in liquishit and prolly will not write it this wk ) | [12:19] |
| mircea_popescu: | im not fucking writing that. i don't like tcp enough. | [12:19] |
| asciilifeform: | lol | [12:19] |
| mircea_popescu: | i'm not writing the "lifestory of linus", either. for the same exact reason -- who the fuck is he ? | [12:19] |
| BingoBoingo: | It also turns out default theme needs some poking to make the selection magic work as per spyked http://btcbase.org/log/2018-03-13#1787763 | [12:19] |
| a111: | Logged on 2018-03-13 20:25 spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-03-13#1787759 <-- a-ha, mystery solved! Trilema has a <div class="post"> child to <span id="shash-...">, so that portion of the script selects it when the child is not a text node (the nodeType==3 bit). thetarpit DOM tree is flatter and doesn't wrap the content in this additional div. NB, will keep it mind should performance ever prove to be an issue. | [12:19] |
| mircea_popescu: | and i didn't write the lifestory of rms, and so on. not everyone is c s lewis. | [12:19] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: it does have the flavour of 'culinary shortcomings of dog shit' treatise, eh. | [12:19] |
| mircea_popescu: | of martian poop. i don't even live on mars. | [12:20] |
| mircea_popescu: | all through the attempt the question would be "why did you expect martian poop is culinary item" and i'd have no answer and it'd drive me mad. | [12:20] |
| asciilifeform: | wouldn't go this far dunno about mircea_popescu , but i'm presently connected to fleanode, trb, etc via tcp | [12:20] |
| mircea_popescu: | i'm not. | [12:21] |
| mircea_popescu: | i'm currently connected through the internet through sheer force of will, and there's a tcp thing trying to rape this. | [12:21] |
| asciilifeform: | lol | [12:21] |
| mircea_popescu: | fact. | [12:21] |
| mircea_popescu: | this is not some "stylistical take", either. it is FACTUAL. exactly in the same manner of ring binder http://btcbase.org/log/2013-12-22#429394 discussion : | [12:22] |
| a111: | Logged on 2013-12-22 16:56 asciilifeform: 'what people want is a function of what they learn is available. e.g., do Americans want three-ring binders, and Europeans four-ring binders? or do they want binders and take whatever number of holes they come with? or do they want something that can help them organize their papers and take whatever is available? or do they really want a less cluttered office and ease of storage and retrieval of the infor | [12:22] |
| mircea_popescu: | "people are keeping their office uncluttered through sheer force of will, and there's a bunch of crap trying to rape this, such as 'ring binders'." | [12:22] |
| asciilifeform: | no i get it | [12:22] |
| mircea_popescu: | what people want is what people want, and then "what is available" tries to fuck with this. | [12:23] |
| mircea_popescu: | "i want a girl" "how about mary ?" process. if i wanted fucking mary, i'd have fucking said i want mary. | [12:23] |
| hanbot: | http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-25#1854317 >> as BB said, not in tree | [12:24] |
| a111: | Logged on 2018-09-25 16:15 mircea_popescu: hanbot any clue why the selection trick dun work on nicoleci 's blog ? was this not in the tree or ? | [12:24] |
| mircea_popescu: | "but mp... eventually... you'll have to do SOMETHING." "yes, and even without that maybe eventually i will do something. this gives no one license to pretend the inadequacy of ontos is now gnosis' problem." | [12:24] |
| mircea_popescu: | hanbot scheduled to patch ? | [12:25] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: reminds of ancient convo b/w asciilifeform and pet : 'p : 'i want a shelfifier' a: 'you mean, a shelf' p : 'no, shelfifier' a: '...' p: 'device that produces shelf where and when needed, then removes' ' | [12:27] |
| mircea_popescu: | ikr ? | [12:27] |
| asciilifeform: | aha! | [12:27] |
| mircea_popescu: | most people emulate this by getting larger kitchen so headbang on cabinet less statistically likely. then they have more floor to clean. | [12:28] |
| asciilifeform: | entirely so. | [12:28] |
| mircea_popescu: | ~this~ is the fundamental problem of the world, and the whole fucking point of gnosis (as the cvasi-religious movement) : creator was ~evidently~ fucktarded, nothing to be proud of. | [12:28] |
| mircea_popescu: | quarter-urge. | [12:29] |
| asciilifeform: | makers of physical objects, i can reluctantly forgive for failing to produce shelfifier. but those of ideal objects -- for them there can be no forgiveness | [12:29] |
| mircea_popescu: | eeeexactly! | [12:29] |
| phf: | mircea_popescu, ave1 http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/QtjVR/?raw=true this was the log from the last invocation, but i'm not sure if it's representative of an issue. this was downstream from a handful of hacks and manual invocations | [12:29] |
| mircea_popescu: | ty | [12:29] |
| mircea_popescu: | just good to have, you never know what when where sparks. | [12:30] |
| phf: | aye | [12:30] |
| asciilifeform: | 'configure: error: C compiler cannot create executables' << wat | [12:30] |
| asciilifeform: | 'See `config.log' for more details.' >> what's in there, phf ? | [12:30] |
| mircea_popescu: | "phf: the problem with publishing ununderstood spew is that you're potentially publishing forever" | [12:31] |
| phf: | :> | [12:31] |
| phf: | well, i have some idea what's going on, the binutils build is attempting to use bootstrapped gcc, which in turn can't find its own link objects, one sec on log | [12:33] |
| phf: | ^ http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/M42gA/?raw=true | [12:33] |
| phf: | (relevant bits are at "cannot find crt1.o") | [12:34] |
| phf: | (the previous error i mentioned in logs was probably using same compiler before it was installed into its destination, because it was being invoked with explicit -B flags (-B flag points to compiler bits explicitly). this new failing bootstrapped compiler would work if provided explicit -B which makes me guess that some phase that was supposed to get compiler into knowing where its bits are failed.) | [12:40] |
| diana_coman: | http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-25#1854304 -> burst is burst so yes, dumping all without any delay among other things that's why those pilot tests, to decide on/if delay | [12:44] |
| a111: | Logged on 2018-09-25 15:58 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-25#1854282 << i don't get it, 50 packets / hour is less than 1 per minute. this can't saturate anything. are you doing the burst in the sense of just dumping all the packets on the interface in 2 s and waiting the 3598 other s idle ? | [12:44] |
| diana_coman: | http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-25#1854294 -> ok | [12:46] |
| a111: | Logged on 2018-09-25 15:37 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-25#1854224 << i don't think it is. | [12:46] |
| diana_coman: | http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-25#1854298 -> certainly | [12:47] |
| a111: | Logged on 2018-09-25 15:40 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-25#1854241 <<< shes gonna publish the code with the first batch of results, so anyone can / everyone's invited to replicate. | [12:47] |
| mircea_popescu: | ic. | [12:47] |
| diana_coman: | http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-25#1854302 -> I took that to mean he wants to select only those of a given size, hence ..yes, easy | [12:48] |
| a111: | Logged on 2018-09-25 15:57 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-25#1854271 << that's what this is, dood. same size sent every hour "accross possible sizes" | [12:48] |
| mircea_popescu: | yeah, i don't think we're trying to study bursts or saturation here. rather a study of the route under best conditions so to speak. | [12:48] |
| diana_coman: | k, will add delay 1 sec between packets at sender, not a problem | [12:49] |
| diana_coman: | btw, there is no "idle", no sender sends and finishes, what idle? it'll get started again by a cron task | [12:51] |
| diana_coman: | receiver is always on, but there's not much point in sender being always on | [12:51] |
| diana_coman: | (it can be done though, if one really wants it, basically an Ada task to be repeated hourly, but I don't see the benefit to that) | [12:52] |
| mircea_popescu: | right. | [12:53] |
| mircea_popescu: | i just meant, "nothing happens" | [12:53] |
| diana_coman: | ah, yes | [12:53] |
| diana_coman: | to recap so I don't miss anything: no counter sent in header for packets packets will have sizes between 6 (header length so minimum) and 2048 sender will have a 1second delay between each new package sent | [12:56] |
| mircea_popescu: | right. | [12:56] |
| mircea_popescu: | meanwhile i simply can't not quote this : | [12:56] |
| mircea_popescu: | "It was a capital lecture so far as this, that the tutor who gave it had got up his subject completely. He knew the whole history of the Articles, how they grew into their present shape, with what fortunes, what had been added, and when, and what omitted. With this, of course, was joined an explanation of the text, as deduced, as far as could be, from the historical account thus given. Not only the British, but the foreign Re | [12:56] |
| mircea_popescu: | formers were introduced and nothing was wanting, at least in the intention of the lecturer, for fortifying the young inquirer in the doctrine and discipline of the Church of England. | [12:56] |
| mircea_popescu: | It did not produce this effect on Reding. Whether he had expected too much, or whatever was the cause, so it was that he did but feel more vividly the sentiment of the old father in the comedy, after consulting the lawyers, "Incertior sum multo quam ante." He saw that the profession of faith contained in the Articles was but a patchwork of bits of orthodoxy, Lutheranism, Calvinism, and Zuinglism and this too on no principle | [12:56] |
| * diana_coman | goes to tweak the knobs again, will bbl | [12:56] |
| mircea_popescu: | that it was but the work of accident, if there be such a thing as accident that it had come down in the particular shape in which the English Church now receives it, when it might have come down in any other shape that it was but a toss-up that Anglicans at this day were not Calvinists, or Presbyterians, or Lutherans, equally well as Episcopalians. This historical fact did but clench the difficulty, or rather impossibility | [12:56] |
| mircea_popescu: | , of saying what the faith of the English Church was." | [12:57] |
| mircea_popescu: | dude manages, 50 or so pages in, to fully explain the fucking problem. "i gave up on this idiocy because upon first serious examination -- idiotic". i can see that. | [12:57] |
| mircea_popescu: | if only c s lewis went to the same oxford as j h newman! what ample oddles of bellybutton lint'd have been spared the examination! how much better the prose, and the world resting upon it. | [12:59] |
| mircea_popescu: | it is the singular misfortune of the world that the sort of people who lived before computing lived before computing, and the sort living with computing are the sort we see around. i'd very much like these switched, give computers to that newman and give typhus to the current professor of logic. | [13:01] |
| ave1: | phf, your error is in the AdaCore gnat gcc (gcc -version shows these boron.a directories) | [13:02] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: could easily not be unrelated tho | [13:02] |
| asciilifeform: | for all i know, sanity requires typhus goin'round | [13:03] |
| ave1: | phf: I suspect this modern systems has placed the C library and crt1.o etc in some wierd place | [13:03] |
| ave1: | systems --> system | [13:05] |
| ave1: | to debug it, just try to compile a basic C hello world with the AdaCore gcc (and also with the system gcc, with -v so that it shows you the paths) | [13:08] |
| phf: | ave1: that is not what's going on | [13:08] |
| phf: | by then adacore gnat gcc already managed to compile a whole bunch of stuff | [13:09] |
| phf: | actually, that is what's going on! but i'm not sure how it got that way, because i've both tested adacore's gnat ahead of time, and also had it building things. something must've gotten clobbered | [13:11] |
| phf: | well, the system in question also has empty /usr/include at this point. so yeah things got clobbered | [13:13] |
| ave1: | wow, that never happed to me yet, if the scripts somehow can cause this please report! | [13:14] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform possibly. | [13:15] |
| deedbot: | http://qntra.net/2018/09/on-bail-cody-wilson-surrenders-weapon-development-project-to-new-director-active-in-arts-and-poetry-circles/ << Qntra - On Bail Cody Wilson Surrenders Weapon Development Project To New Director "Active In Arts And Poetry Circles" | [13:19] |
| mircea_popescu: | hahaha | [13:19] |
| asciilifeform: | imho there is substance to mircea_popescu's 'winblowz was created by supernumerary children who failed to find grave in time' hypothesis | [13:20] |
| asciilifeform: | and oh ha | [13:20] |
| asciilifeform: | so d00d linused himself on the stake, huh. | [13:20] |
| mircea_popescu: | what the FUCK are "poetry circles" ? what fucking circles ? something like http://trilema.com/2015/mps-very-brief-foray-into-a-poetry-forum/ ? or not even ? | [13:21] |
| BingoBoingo: | <asciilifeform> so d00d linused himself on the stake, huh. << Linus is a line in the Wilson piece because presumably Wilson at least got his nut off with the little girl who fucked him | [13:21] |
| BingoBoingo: | <mircea_popescu> what the FUCK are "poetry circles" ? what fucking circles ? something like http://trilema.com/2015/mps-very-brief-foray-into-a-poetry-forum/ ? or not even ? << That. Get high go to coffee shop with bongo drum, etc | [13:22] |
| mircea_popescu: | BingoBoingo linus got nut off with her stupid mother. | [13:22] |
| BingoBoingo: | Cucking is a thing! | [13:22] |
| mircea_popescu: | speaking of stupid girlfriends of naggums : anyone recall the "obituary" lulz ? | [13:22] |
| BingoBoingo: | AHA | [13:22] |
| asciilifeform: | yes! | [13:22] |
| asciilifeform: | iirc site still up | [13:22] |
| BingoBoingo: | Bitch only had to do three things: SOCKS and COCKS and Eulogy | [13:23] |
| mircea_popescu: | lulziest shit ever, there was at the time a whole redditactivism thing that aimed to (somehow) hurtfully & distressfully associate trilema with the expression. | [13:23] |
| mircea_popescu: | it... well inexplicably it went nowhere. | [13:23] |
| BingoBoingo: | Whatever happened to sciencehatesMpsStalker | [13:24] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: hey, usg 3ringbinder talmud prolly decreed that they must try at least 11 times.. | [13:24] |
| mircea_popescu: | i can't begin to guess why it'd go nowhere, i mean, a) insulting people by using their own words often works (on retards, why would it not work on people who say what they mean & mean what they say ?) and moreover b) summarization works on everything else, why'd trilema escape it and c) wtf is this strategic superiority jazz and who ever heard of the rhino-mud-birthday-gift issue. and so on | [13:25] |
| asciilifeform: | ( this is, i shit ther not, how they actually work, approx ) | [13:25] |
| mircea_popescu: | BingoBoingo found bf/drug dealer, is happily working the ghetto streets now ? | [13:25] |
| mircea_popescu: | there was a film about "successful negro reclaimed by streets", walk of shame. | [13:27] |
| BingoBoingo: | mircea_popescu: Will investigate | [13:27] |
| mircea_popescu: | of course, they gave it a "happy ending", but it's fucking obvious what ~really~ happened. | [13:27] |
| asciilifeform: | 'Taipei police reportedly next handed Wilson over to the National Immigration Agency. Though Taiwan lacks an extradition agreement with the US...' << unsurprise | [13:32] |
| BingoBoingo: | Related: Will be sleeping at a hostel tonight after spanish class to keep in touch with my roots. That and people give me the heads up when its pizza night (free calories). | [13:32] |
| BingoBoingo: | asciilifeform: Looks like a standard east azn deportation | [13:33] |
| asciilifeform: | lol , gotta ask what then'd be a 'nonstandard' ? | [13:33] |
| BingoBoingo: | non-standard is they let the white devil take their wimmins with him | [13:35] |
| BingoBoingo: | In other completely unsurprising finds the Linux cock writer is <b>MR.</b> "Coraline" Ehmke | [13:45] |
| hanbot: | <mircea_popescu> hanbot scheduled to patch ? << iirc this is second instance of query. i'll patch it this week, yes. | [13:53] |
| asciilifeform: | BingoBoingo: plox to check that emailbox asap | [16:35] |
| asciilifeform: | err, lemme try that again, | [16:37] |
| asciilifeform: | ok nao. | [16:37] |
| BingoBoingo: | asciilifeform: Reading | [16:38] |
| asciilifeform: | BingoBoingo: dafuq is 'DINAMA' anyway | [16:41] |
| BingoBoingo: | asciilifeform: Reading up on it | [16:41] |
| asciilifeform: | if we can't even get motherfucking crate of 300 $ disk mailed, will have to organize an expedition ahead of schedule. | [16:49] |
| asciilifeform: | unless BingoBoingo pulls some magic out of his sleeve. | [16:49] |
| asciilifeform: | cuz this is screamingly retarded. | [16:49] |
| asciilifeform: | rk plant currently has 0 spare parts !! | [16:50] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: i'm beginning to suspect enemy action (i.e. some 'well-wisher' made a call to 'the right organs' in orcistan, or somesuch ) | [16:54] |
| asciilifeform: | consider -- 3 crates went. | [16:55] |
| diana_coman: | what'd DINAMA asciilifeform ? | [16:56] |
| asciilifeform: | how the fuck would i know ! | [16:56] |
| asciilifeform: | full text : 'Estimado: Me informa el despachante que se encuentra inhabilitado para importar por DINAMA. Agradezco una vez regularice la situación nos informe para procesar el permiso. Saludos cordiales.' | [16:56] |
| asciilifeform: | and this after derping for week+ | [16:56] |
| asciilifeform: | and various idjit orc forms, which BingoBoingo not only filled but hand-carried in. | [16:57] |
| BingoBoingo: | DINAMA appears to be https://mvotma.gub.uy/dinama | [16:57] |
| diana_coman: | to me it sounds very much like the usual bakshish/peshkesh request, lol | [16:57] |
| BingoBoingo: | i.e. "environmentorast" agency | [16:58] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: normal people make bakshish request with a 'pay here' | [16:58] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform, tsk, that's a fee! | [16:58] |
| asciilifeform: | and it's been paid. | [16:58] |
| asciilifeform: | BingoBoingo: iirc there was some physical place, to which you went ? perhaps time to go there once more. | [17:01] |
| asciilifeform: | BingoBoingo: find out, what the everliving fuck. | [17:01] |
| BingoBoingo: | Well, I'll have to read an go to the physical places tomorrow. | [17:01] |
| asciilifeform: | read what ?? all we got is equiv of 'GURU MEDIATION ERROR 12345' | [17:02] |
| BingoBoingo: | Well, wtf the office is and why they might complain. | [17:02] |
| asciilifeform: | i mean, wtf, enviro ?! what, this model of usb stick is banned in uy because does not include enuff % cow shit by mass ?? | [17:03] |
| BingoBoingo: | And going has to be tomorrow because offices are closing for the day at this hour | [17:03] |
| asciilifeform: | whereas the other, included ?? | [17:03] |
| BingoBoingo: | Maybe adhesive banned on hedgehogs? | [17:04] |
| asciilifeform: | rrright, somebody bothered to open & sniff'em | [17:04] |
| asciilifeform: | my arse. | [17:04] |
| asciilifeform: | 'tis a crying shame that mircea_popescu doesn't live in uy... i suspect there's a cunt somewhere who needs flaying. | [17:06] |
| asciilifeform: | slow, methodical flaying. | [17:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | wait what ?! | [17:07] |
| diana_coman: | my point above was that "derping for week+" + obscure "fault you have to fix" sounds precisely like "I keep asking for a bribe and I did not get any!!" | [17:07] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: i think we have something like your earlier bank wire thing, going | [17:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | heh | [17:07] |
| mod6: | diana_coman has a point, aren't we supposed to grease the wheels in such a palce? | [17:09] |
| mod6: | *place | [17:09] |
| asciilifeform: | mod6: lulazon collected a ~30% bakshish prepay on all 4 crates to date 3 made it, 4th -- somehow not | [17:10] |
| diana_coman: | mircea_popescu, 1s delay seems to result at least on UK->UY direction on preserving even order at destination, at least at this hour at any rate, I'll look at it tomorrow and unless I can spot some trouble, it should then be chugging along | [17:10] |
| mircea_popescu: | alright. | [17:11] |
| mircea_popescu: | unless dinama, amirite ? | [17:11] |
| diana_coman: | ahahhaah | [17:11] |
| asciilifeform: | lol, they would if they could | [17:11] |
| mircea_popescu: | http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-25#1854470 << lol, simmer down, you. | [17:11] |
| a111: | Logged on 2018-09-25 21:03 asciilifeform: i mean, wtf, enviro ?! what, this model of usb stick is banned in uy because does not include enuff % cow shit by mass ?? | [17:11] |
| asciilifeform: | ( picture, tariff on packets ) | [17:11] |
| mircea_popescu: | the method you're currently using is and always was regarded as braindamaged at best. | [17:12] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: can you think of less braindamaged ? ( say i had budgeted 9000 spares for april expedition. then we'd be sitting on 8994 lemon drives. ) | [17:13] |
| mircea_popescu: | amazon whatever the fuck to your house, and either ferry it over in luggage or else mail it over in old newspapers. what you're trying to do is the mail equivalent of http://cascadianhacker.com/classically-inept-couriering | [17:15] |
| asciilifeform: | the old newspapers is worth a shot. and if this fails, it'll have to run like antarctic station, i.e. supply rocket quarterly-semiquarterly, and priced in. | [17:17] |
| mircea_popescu: | alternatively, source it locally or get a company off the ground already, get it a customs agent and process the crates there. | [17:17] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: i'm satisfied that BingoBoingo sniffed erry possible local arse for local source. | [17:18] |
| asciilifeform: | there aint any. | [17:18] |
| mircea_popescu: | alright. | [17:18] |
| asciilifeform: | 'customs agent' last time it was seen to, was cost-~equivalent to asciilifeform's magic trunk. | [17:18] |
| mircea_popescu: | whatever you pick of that 5ish items list, the "let's see what happens if you amazon it over" was never more than that -- novelty lulz item. | [17:18] |
| asciilifeform: | correct. | [17:18] |
| mircea_popescu: | so then why getting excited. | [17:18] |
| asciilifeform: | sorta why i posted a $5 cable the 1st time. | [17:19] |
| asciilifeform: | BingoBoingo: do what remains to do to put a proper cross on the grave, and after that i'ma start taking cargo manifest calls. | [17:19] |
| asciilifeform: | ( unless mod6 or ben_vulpes wants to be next. ) | [17:20] |
| asciilifeform: | BingoBoingo: and incidentally, dunforget , yer the chair nao ! so if you have smarter idea, plox to say asap. | [17:20] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform would it be fair to say the discount for risk-of-loss through this process is about 40% ? ie, 2 in 5 shipments are lost to it ? | [17:20] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: that's actually the part that set my blood pressure | [17:21] |
| asciilifeform: | i.e. i have nfi whether '4 in 5' or '100% after 3' | [17:21] |
| mircea_popescu: | ah. | [17:21] |
| asciilifeform: | it's a winblowz-style eggog. | [17:21] |
| mircea_popescu: | well in any case, 1.3 surcharge * 1.4 risk of loss means almost 200% the price. | [17:21] |
| asciilifeform: | if this were a 'of 4 rockets, 1 falls into the sea' asciilifeform would not blink even. | [17:22] |
| mircea_popescu: | in which case, simply shipping books or w/e seems competitive. | [17:22] |
| mircea_popescu: | BingoBoingo you ever talked to the chinos ? i mean specifically the supermarket folks. they routinely blocade run, might be able to get you some shit ? | [17:23] |
| mircea_popescu: | anyway, the one point here that's not clear to me at all is why would anyone expect uruguayan law applies to us ? BingoBoingo is not a national, what fucking "dinama" ? | [17:27] |
| asciilifeform: | afaik uy dun have an extraterritoriality thing with usa. ( and if it did, would we even be working with it ) | [17:29] |
| phf: | dinamo is a machine for extracting bablos from lohs, asciilifeform should know that. dinama must be a south american variant | [17:29] |
| mircea_popescu: | what's that to do with anything ? | [17:29] |
| mircea_popescu: | "i get it, you have a law about your peons not being allowed to buy shit. good. so ?" | [17:29] |
| asciilifeform: | phf: lol was my 1st thought | [17:29] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: afaik erry uppity peonistan regards errything mailed there as customsable | [17:29] |
| mircea_popescu: | maybe i misread, but that wasn't the problem ? | [17:30] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: the exact point of eggog is unclear to me, this is why i asked BingoBoingo to dig. | [17:30] |
| asciilifeform: | all i got is that ??? email. | [17:30] |
| mircea_popescu: | i understood the complaint as "apparently someone somewhere is under the impression BingoBoingo can't get 3490874389 crates shipped because there's a law about local morons being limited to 2" | [17:30] |
| mircea_popescu: | which, whatever, if they don't yield fucking sue them | [17:31] |
| mircea_popescu: | file papers for conversion/theft against the agency and one individual involved (pick whoever you least liked) personally and there you go. | [17:31] |
| asciilifeform: | this was my impression as of this morning. and was also my impression that BingoBoingo went and danced the asked-for dance with the orcs, and thereafter eggog is to vanish. but turns out -- not. | [17:31] |
| mircea_popescu: | if nothing else, will make great blogpost. | [17:31] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: unless i'm thick, this needs a specialist who's actually trustworthy, neh | [17:34] |
| mircea_popescu: | BingoBoingo can actually sue in his own name | [17:34] |
| mircea_popescu: | conversion is a civil matter anyway. | [17:35] |
| asciilifeform: | BingoBoingo: sounds like winning idea, imho. | [17:35] |
| asciilifeform: | what's it even cost to file, in orcistan, cost of a whiskey? | [17:35] |
| mircea_popescu: | if nothing else, will introduce him to the courts and open a whole new lolz front. | [17:35] |
| mircea_popescu: | i don't expect it's expensive, no. besides, very likely will be arbitrated rather than adjudicated | [17:36] |
| mircea_popescu: | (first phase of this will consist of local retards very intently repeating what BingoBoingo "has to understand" that "things is" and BingoBoingo laughintg his ass off) | [17:36] |
| asciilifeform: | i'd normally expect would be dismissed with prejudice, under 'article 12345: we do whatever the fuck we want and suck it' but this is possibly biased by life in usa | [17:37] |
| mircea_popescu: | it's not been my experience anywhere including the us. | [17:37] |
| mircea_popescu: | it's biased by life in your own head, mostly. | [17:37] |
| asciilifeform: | anyway i have no opposition to an experimental test | [17:38] |
| asciilifeform: | there is no substitute for experiment. | [17:38] |
| mircea_popescu: | I reached out to this new contact, one Martin << whatever happened to this fellow btw ? story as recorded by ben_vulpes seems altogether inconsistent with http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-25#1854501 ? did i miss some developments ? | [17:39] |
| a111: | Logged on 2018-09-25 21:18 asciilifeform: 'customs agent' last time it was seen to, was cost-~equivalent to asciilifeform's magic trunk. | [17:39] |
| mircea_popescu: | ben_vulpes selectable text, when | [17:39] |
| mircea_popescu: | amusingly, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-25#1854493 is right there in black and white : "Based on my experiences with customs both times, anyone taking hardware to Spaceship Montevideo must conceal as much of it in servers as possible, and unbag that which cannot be plugged in, as items that are "new in box" trigger the customs officials no end." | [17:42] |
| a111: | Logged on 2018-09-25 21:12 mircea_popescu: the method you're currently using is and always was regarded as braindamaged at best. | [17:42] |
| mircea_popescu: | you've paid a lot of money to figure out "no items new in box", why not use it. | [17:42] |
| BingoBoingo: | <mircea_popescu> BingoBoingo you ever talked to the chinos ? i mean specifically the supermarket folks. they routinely blocade run, might be able to get you some shit ? << I'm trying to find restaurant Chinese here. The only Chinese Chinese I reliably come across are new chinese wearing suits and renting WTC to buy cows. | [17:44] |
| mircea_popescu: | http://cascadianhacker.com/least-effort-signups-in-django/comment-page-6#comment-755 << there's also something straqnge going on there. | [17:44] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: prev 3 datapoints suggested 'can mail with 30% bakshish' but apparently yes, will have to return to orig hypothesis. | [17:44] |
| mircea_popescu: | cows ?! | [17:44] |
| BingoBoingo: | mircea_popescu: China wants to eat beef | [17:45] |
| BingoBoingo: | Uruguay sells beef | [17:45] |
| mircea_popescu: | ah ah | [17:45] |
| mircea_popescu: | well, so talk to them | [17:45] |
| mircea_popescu: | talk to people statistically it's always better to than not to. | [17:45] |
| mircea_popescu: | it never yet happened that "my decision to not talk to this stranger paid off". seems counterintuitive, is nevertheless the case. | [17:45] |
| BingoBoingo: | Will talk to them when they smoke circle outside the towers. | [17:46] |
| mircea_popescu: | you know ? | [17:46] |
| BingoBoingo: | There's a group that regularly smoke circles in front of the datacenter tower, will get on it. | [17:47] |
| mircea_popescu: | you ever appeared pro se before a court before ? | [17:47] |
| BingoBoingo: | I have indeed | [17:48] |
| BingoBoingo: | Civil and criminal | [17:48] |
| BingoBoingo: | Civil went better than criminal did | [17:48] |
| mircea_popescu: | alrighty then. | [17:49] |
| mircea_popescu: | moreover, uruguay is if memory serves civil rather than common law. even easier to do. | [17:49] |
| BingoBoingo: | I'll look for a copy of the code at the Feria Sunday | [17:50] |
| BingoBoingo: | They have one, one person wrote it, as legal writings go it can't be an awful read | [17:51] |
| mircea_popescu: | good for spanish in any case, and to impress the peruanas. | [17:54] |
| BingoBoingo: | Anyways, in the reading of the now it looks like it could be a small wank where I may have to register the business of myself as an importer of products packaged in non-reusable packaging | [17:55] |
| mircea_popescu: | "for a date wed, you can come watch me in court" | [17:55] |
| * mircea_popescu | used to do this in his teens, to very moistening effect indeed. | [17:55] |
| BingoBoingo: | My past civil experiences could have had that effect. The traffic court case over a 75 USD speeding ticket prolly not. | [17:56] |
| BingoBoingo: | But yes this is a civil law system here, and I don't see why anyone who went to a facultad de derecho ought to have any chance if I do case prep. | [17:58] |
| mircea_popescu: | well, also a matter of principles involved. "these schmucks stole my shit, what matters it was only $300" sounds a lot better than "i am so fucking cheap, ima try and beg mom to let me off hook for $75 in damages". | [17:58] |
| BingoBoingo: | The principal in the traffic case was Pocahontas, Illinois (and the rest of Bond County) can be arsed to get the radars they buy used calibrated. | [18:01] |
| BingoBoingo: | Or used them according to the manufacterer's instructions | [18:01] |
| mircea_popescu: | pretty common, really. | [18:03] |
| BingoBoingo: | But hamplanet judge wrote it off as "local standards" and who was I to take it to apellate court when Uruguay was calling | [18:05] |
| BingoBoingo: | Anyways, reading more on DINAMA and Aduanas. At this moment it seems registering as an importer of packaged products and coming up with a waste management plan might do the trick: En el alcance del decreto 260/007 se establece que toda empresa importadora o propietaria de marca que pone en el mercado productos envasados, deben encontrarse inscriptos en el registro que llevala DINAMA y contar o adherir a un plan de gestión de residuos | [18:08] |
| BingoBoingo: | de envases. | [18:08] |
| BingoBoingo: | And... they specify "artículos eléctricos y artículos electrónicos" Looks like I am getting a new piece of paper to hang on the wall. | [18:12] |
| mircea_popescu: | "local standards" lmao. local physics, too, why not. "sir, do you know how fast you were going ?" "52mph" "nope, 7615!" "what ?! look my dear man, it says so right here" "ah, that may be how your car sees it... but here... WE HAVE LOCAL STANDARDS" | [18:13] |
| mircea_popescu: | BingoBoingo no fucking way, that's if you sell coca cola. | [18:14] |
| BingoBoingo: | Or apparently if you sell USB drives in their shells | [18:14] |
| asciilifeform: | BingoBoingo: tell'em all waste is to be mailed to gringolandia | [18:15] |
| asciilifeform: | ( i'm not even opposed, there's a rubbish bin right at the post office ) | [18:15] |
| BingoBoingo: | Reused as arts and crafts materials could work as well. These folks love their cardboard | [18:16] |
| mircea_popescu: | BingoBoingo but you don't sell anything. you're going to eat them | [18:16] |
| BingoBoingo: | I eat them, customs folk can't imagine that, hippos dance, the lobos marinos sing, and at some point PizarroISP the musical will resound through the Gossipd equivalent of torrents | [18:20] |
| asciilifeform: | i'm still scratching head, re how the contents of all those derp racks got there. diplobags ?! | [18:22] |
| asciilifeform: | there were motherfucking pentium1's in there. | [18:22] |
| BingoBoingo: | Plenty more reading to do before the relevant targets get into their offices tomorrow | [18:22] |
| asciilifeform: | ( as well as ciscolade and the usual crapola, by the megatonne ) | [18:22] |
| BingoBoingo: | Diplobags isn't out of the question. This place is littered with embassies. | [18:26] |
| BingoBoingo: | Not much to do but meet them at their level, put the chains on, and drag them with their words | [18:28] |
| BingoBoingo: | Brb. pizza and reading and more reading | [18:41] |
| * mod6 | just had a good chuckle at the 'danced the asked-for dance' | [18:54] |
| mircea_popescu: | in the end, useless hp box found new life as heroes 2 playstation. | [20:18] |
| asciilifeform: | plenty of use for box with no nic | [20:26] |
| asciilifeform: | i think i have nearly as many without, as with.. | [20:26] |
| Mocky: | mircea_popescu, forming an LLC in Qatar requires a bank deposit of 200k QR (55k USD) which can be withdrawn after the company is formed >> http://www.mec.gov.qa/en/services/commerce-corner/Pages/How-to-establishment-a-new-Commercial-record-and-new-.aspx | [21:37] |
Category: Logs
