Forum logs for 18 Feb 2020
| mircea_popescu: | http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-02-17#1958144 << this is a terrible idea for a number of reasons. | [02:59] |
| mircea_popescu: | one is that the spec as sketched by me is nowhere near mature enough for implementation in the first place it requires some actual looking at and discussion some prototyping, some trying out after it's mature before the implementation is actually in a state where anyone'd trust it with anything which first anythings will very likely NOT be the changing of how V works around it. | [02:59] |
| mircea_popescu: | you're burning no less than three major steps here, which is not how things work. | [02:59] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2020-02-17 18:32:25 dorion: perhaps mod6 takes the lead to implement the clearsigned scheme on his keccak regrind of the trb tree. | [02:59] |
| mircea_popescu: | another reason is that this throwing darts work allocation method's never been observed to work in practice. the correct way to allocate work, as actually observable in the damned logs you've supposedly read and re-read, actually works on a very hit-and-miss basis in the first place (owing to itemized an' specifically described failures an' assorted head cockroaches of the ~worthless white anglophone young male) | [02:59] |
| mircea_popescu: | while ~everything was built on it (putting it intellectually way ahead of, say, THE ENTIRE COLLECTIVE OF LISP USERS & their collected historical products, or anything else "the civilised" Western world has to offer), nevertheless it really fails more often than it delivers. | [02:59] |
| mircea_popescu: | yet one in three or four or whatever's still way the fuck more than absolute zero, which is what you'll get out of "hey, [name i picked out of the hat], do [thing i picked out of the hat]". | [02:59] |
| mircea_popescu: | there's more, too but anyways, you're supposed to be aware of these things, as part and parcel of what having an internal life of the mind ever means. | [02:59] |
| mircea_popescu: | wth do you even represent the eventual world-equivalent of your word usage to be ? two weeks hence mod6 shows up with a working drop-in replacement for an intricate, specialist piece of machinery that happens to be built with skills he doesn't have by an advanced programmer he isn't on a worldview he doesn't share ? | [02:59] |
| mircea_popescu: | how the fuck! dude reads the log once a week | [02:59] |
| mircea_popescu: | whenever it's bois freedom afternoon at the household of whatever chick owns his sorry ass, half hour sunday while she's out with her friends or w/e, and then drops random offensive nonsense that doesn't actually go with anything but it's nevertheless the best he could get to in the limited time and with the limited involvement his owner permits. | [02:59] |
| mircea_popescu: | i get it, you're a nice fellow and would like for things to be good and work out. nothing wrong with that. you wanna help along with the things, excellent. the prompter's at "get the few who actually seem like they could have something intelligent to say on the topic to comment on the proposed spec an' help mp figure out why they don't apparently naturally want to but without going out of what he's doing, such as fo | [02:59] |
| mircea_popescu: | r instance by speciffically calling them for it point blank. for some reason he didn't do that though he self-evidently could have, maybe there's a reason for that other than his being shy, such as perhaps that he doesn't wanna force march it, for which call there might in turn also be reasons and so on." | [02:59] |
| mircea_popescu: | http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-02-17#1958136 << i'd say you got the right idea here, manifest.txt is an add-only buffer, attempts to modify it ~= pirate patch. | [03:03] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2020-02-17 09:37:40 diana_coman: maybe I'm not fully getting the idea of the manifest file here but my current understanding is that it's a record of the history and as such I really don't see any case where something gets deleted from it - at most it gets branched from a previous version but that's still an added line to (a previous version of) the manifest file. | [03:03] |
| mircea_popescu: | http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-02-17#1958146 << thanks fucking god for that. | [03:05] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2020-02-17 18:32:47 dorion: I'll let him show and tell, his patch removes the whole rotor orchestra since Gales is musl static anyway. | [03:05] |
| dorion: | http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-02-17#1958151 - hm, yeah. it did seem that I was forcing it a bit. I just now brought up the eulora comms protocol and tmsr rsa specs as first examples that came to mind to drive your point home further. I ought to have taken | [03:27] |
| dorion: | a step back and asked a question. | [03:27] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2020-02-17 23:07:38 mircea_popescu: one is that the spec as sketched by me is nowhere near mature enough for implementation in the first place it requires some actual looking at and discussion some prototyping, some trying out after it's mature before the implementation is actually in a state where anyone'd trust it with anything which first anythings will very likely NOT be the changing of how V works around it. | [03:27] |
| mircea_popescu: | you've got bad habits from the other world. | [03:31] |
| mircea_popescu: | imagine by the way what serious problems the concept of heaven actually poses to people. what do they do there all day ? well, conceivably, IF indeed they do something, if haven's something besides hell under another name (the problem with hell self-evidently ain't "the fire", but THE BOREDOM) they conceivably do something. yet... what ? likely not anything driven or inspired by "the flesh", which leaves... what does it | [03:32] |
| mircea_popescu: | leave ? | [03:32] |
| mircea_popescu: | perhaps the best model to inform this issue'd be the western cowbody brought to boston, or any other such savage-in-london rapturous moments. well... do you suppose heaven has a stiff learning curve ? how to conduct yourself such as all the others there don't throw up ? | [03:33] |
| dorion: | it seems like if it is a great place it ought to have a stiff learning curve. | [03:38] |
| dorion: | a reason I read the logs w/o talking was that very "try and figure out how to conduct myself such that the others don't puke." as I had puked myself reading the various douchebags. | [03:44] |
| dorion: | http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-02-17#1958157 - I figured he'd at least show up to ask questions, but I see now if that were the case it would've been done the 5th or 6th or sometime before the 15th when he published | [03:52] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2020-02-17 23:07:57 mircea_popescu: wth do you even represent the eventual world-equivalent of your word usage to be ? two weeks hence mod6 shows up with a working drop-in replacement for an intricate, specialist piece of machinery that happens to be built with skills he doesn't have by an advanced programmer he isn't on a worldview he doesn't share ? | [03:52] |
| dorion: | his lastest detached sigs. | [03:52] |
| dorion: | http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-02-17#1958160 - ok. I'll work on asking smart questions more often to replace the bad habits of jumping back and forth between a) staying silent and b) jumping ahead with excess optimism. | [03:59] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2020-02-17 23:08:08 mircea_popescu: i get it, you're a nice fellow and would like for things to be good and work out. nothing wrong with that. you wanna help along with the things, excellent. the prompter's at "get the few who actually seem like they could have something intelligent to say on the topic to comment on the proposed spec an' help mp figure out why they don't apparently naturally want to but without going out of what he's doing, s | [03:59] |
| mircea_popescu: | that could work | [06:30] |
| bvt: | diana_coman: answered your comment yesterday, uploaded the regrind of p.1 and p.2 yesterday as well. | [09:55] |
| diana_coman: | bvt: cool, I'll give it another spin, hopefully soon. | [10:28] |
| feedbot: | http://ossasepia.com/2020/02/18/strutting-waving-and-skin-sharing-euloras-defaults/ << Ossa Sepia -- Strutting, Waving and Skin Sharing (Eulora's Defaults) | [16:40] |
| feedbot: | http://qntra.net/2020/02/google-carrying-out-take-down-requests-over-word-did-on-behalf-of-dance-india-dance/ << Qntra -- Google Carrying Out Take Down Requests Over Word "Did" On Behalf Of "Dance India Dance" | [16:44] |
| jfw: | http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-02-04#1957902 << >> https://www.openwall.com/lists/musl/2020/02/18/2 . We'll see what happens | [19:50] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2020-02-04 22:40:07 mircea_popescu: jfw, re the whole musl & locales issue, it might be an idea to signal to them, "look, we use musl, and we don't think this is a good idea". irrespective of whether it does anything, at least that way they can't say they didn't realise "unanimity" is hallucinated etc. | [19:50] |
| mircea_popescu: | i don't expect much happening in that sense. if you bury the dead rather than let them rot under the bird-ladden sky, what happens ? | [22:40] |
| diana_coman: | it stinks less! | [22:42] |
| jfw: | I suppose what happens is the gravedigger who fancied there might be some life in the bodies gets convinced otherwise. From the first response: "Unicode 12.1 added the symbol for the new Japanese era, Reiwa Era. You will be unable to represent current dates in the Japanese calendar without this update." "I have been personally impacted by the lack of [political sort order]" "No one user | [23:05] |
| jfw: | matters more than another" | [23:05] |
| mircea_popescu: | lol ok | [23:17] |
| mircea_popescu: | how is the "no one user is more important than another" nonsense an argument for their position ? user q wants y, user w wants there not to be y, "no one user is more important than another" =necessarily> no y. | [23:19] |
| mircea_popescu: | jfw, what chan is this anyways ? | [23:20] |
| diana_coman: | mircea_popescu: to my mind the "no one user matters more than another" means of course "no user matters at all" because it follows by necessity. | [23:20] |
| mircea_popescu: | i suppose so. | [23:20] |
| jfw: | mircea_popescu: ha, good point. It's their email list | [23:20] |
| mircea_popescu: | a ok. | [23:20] |
| jfw: | !!up tecuane | [23:23] |
| deedbot: | tecuane voiced for 30 minutes. | [23:23] |
| jfw: | hi tecuane, I understand you're here about musl translations | [23:23] |
| tecuane: | so i am confusion | [23:23] |
| tecuane: | apart from using "considered harmful" which is unilaterally considered the most dumbass way to get a point across | [23:24] |
| tecuane: | you dont like non-english languages in your musl | [23:24] |
| tecuane: | which is weird af when you consider the second line of the first link on your ml post: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/r08ACagY/image.png | [23:24] |
| mircea_popescu: | anyway, your statement is i guess something along the lines of "look, good fellows, your theory as to how users matter is not an argument in the direction you wish to construe it, but exactly opposite. the republic specifically does not want there to be unicode support. if you implement it, that means the republic will fork and maintain your thing pre-implementation. if you do not implement it, some schmuck somewhere wi | [23:24] |
| mircea_popescu: | ll be personally impacted by not being able to represent the "japanese current era" -- something i'm apparently able to represent right now, without using unicode for it (so perhaps, i'm saying, the problem is in the schmuck in question's own head). that'd be it really, do your best under the constraints as they are." | [23:24] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2018-01-09 18:48:52 phf: mule is probably part of the greater concern within the overal situation which was japanese and unicode | [23:24] |
| tecuane: | tf did i just read | [23:25] |
| mircea_popescu: | tecuane, the problem with supporting non-alphabet approaches to an alphabet is that you get the worst of both worlds. | [23:25] |
| tecuane: | have u worked on a libc | [23:25] |
| tecuane: | beyond yayposting on the mailing lists | [23:25] |
| mircea_popescu: | tecuane, i suppose you read my pov re the issue you're discussing. there's a log : http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-02-18#1958186 | [23:25] |
| ossabot: | Logged on 2020-02-18 15:58:41 ossabot: Logged on 2020-02-04 22:40:07 mircea_popescu: jfw, re the whole musl & locales issue, it might be an idea to signal to them, "look, we use musl, and we don't think this is a good idea". irrespective of whether it does anything, at least that way they can't say they didn't realise "unanimity" is hallucinated etc. | [23:25] |
| mircea_popescu: | tecuane, the republic is currently maintaining static linked os, yes. | [23:26] |
| mircea_popescu: | this means private libcs, there's a coupla flavours. | [23:26] |
| jfw: | tecuane: I have no problem at all with what languages people represent on their computer, the more the merrier I very much have a problem with extra code (+ potential bugs) being added to my computer to support it in core system utilities | [23:26] |
| tecuane: | when you said on your post | [23:26] |
| tecuane: | "come to this channel and pm me and we can discuss it" | [23:26] |
| mircea_popescu: | well, he voiced you, so i guess that's what he meant. | [23:27] |
| tecuane: | i didnt realise i would also be talking to someone who writes in riddles and screeds, using the royal "the republic" instead of "i" | [23:27] |
| mircea_popescu: | that's not exactly what's jhappening lol. the republic's an actual thing, distinct from i. | [23:27] |
| tecuane: | its not fair to bring The Riddler to a conversation | [23:27] |
| tecuane: | thats just rude | [23:27] |
| mircea_popescu: | aite, so you two carry on in pm, i have no objection. | [23:27] |
| tecuane: | are you a sovereign citizen mircea_popescu | [23:28] |
| tecuane: | you talk like someone on the fence about it | [23:28] |
| mircea_popescu: | i am not much of a citizen, so i guess ? | [23:28] |
| mircea_popescu: | is it a term of art ? | [23:28] |
| tecuane: | jfw: it seems like a weird thing to be concerned about 2bh | [23:29] |
| mircea_popescu: | everyting can seem so, including supporting the japanese nonsense. | [23:29] |
| tecuane: | ah so jfw is being 'brutally practical' and you're just being racially intolerant | [23:30] |
| tecuane: | got it | [23:30] |
| mircea_popescu: | look, race doesn't enter into it. | [23:30] |
| mircea_popescu: | having an open ended alphabet is like having a square wheel. not how it works. | [23:30] |
| mircea_popescu: | some people wanan make their imaginary race about using square wheels, that's their fucking problem. | [23:31] |
| tecuane: | "not how it works" is a weird descriptor for something that has worked just fine for kinda a long time imo | [23:32] |
| mircea_popescu: | at no point in its short, tortured existence has unicode worked fine | [23:32] |
| mircea_popescu: | in fact, i would say unicode is the poster child for what broken code even means. | [23:32] |
| mircea_popescu: | it was a worse fucking idea than "object oriented", and it's high time it got marked as such and put in the dustbin where it belongs. | [23:33] |
| tecuane: | just like object-oriented did right | [23:33] |
| tecuane: | o wait | [23:33] |
| mircea_popescu: | right. | [23:33] |
| tecuane: | oo didnt get put in the bin lmao | [23:34] |
| mircea_popescu: | diana_coman, can tell you some joys of oo-idiocy and the sorta lulz it drives. | [23:34] |
| mircea_popescu: | tecuane, lmao, you're not serious are you ? | [23:34] |
| diana_coman: | mircea_popescu: you know, I was trying to not shock tecuane with this notion that it being a public chan there are actually *other* people reading and talking and generally participating. | [23:34] |
| mircea_popescu: | diana_coman, i thought you were just a biorobot. | [23:35] |
| diana_coman: | ahaha | [23:35] |
| tecuane: | mircea_popescu: in what universe has oo been "put in the bin" ever | [23:36] |
| tecuane: | it hasnt even faded from popularity let alone been relegated to the trash | [23:36] |
| mircea_popescu: | i suspect you might have been somewhat isolated for a few years, but i have no way to answer your "in what universe" q, for lack of an indexing mechanism. in not-yours ? | [23:36] |
| jfw: | I at least haven't written a class except as required for Python exceptions in years | [23:37] |
| tecuane: | i feel like that may be the other way around | [23:37] |
| tecuane: | i see it absolutely plenty in code that isnt mine | [23:37] |
| mircea_popescu: | well yeah, that's the sort of sentiment that's necessarily mutual. | [23:37] |
| mircea_popescu: | tecuane, good code ? or shit code ? | [23:37] |
| tecuane: | both | [23:37] |
| mircea_popescu: | i've not seen it in good code. i don't mean recently, i mean ever. | [23:37] |
| tecuane: | as an expert polyglot im sure you are the absolute benchmark for what is and is not "good code" | [23:38] |
| mircea_popescu: | but, be that as it may, "popularity", especially as perceived by people not instrumented to measure anything, is no kind of basis for reason. | [23:38] |
| mircea_popescu: | tecuane, wth is an expert polyglot ? | [23:38] |
| tecuane: | imagine if you could use a service to look up a word | [23:39] |
| tecuane: | even if they were in a different language | [23:39] |
| tecuane: | like french | [23:39] |
| mircea_popescu: | a polyglot is someone who speaks multiple languages. this state doesn't take the "expert" tag. | [23:39] |
| mircea_popescu: | tecuane, your notion of what words mean is inadequate. you can't "look up a word" in this sense, because natural languages do not admit strict equivalency. | [23:39] |
| tecuane: | this behaviour explains the operating system thing so much | [23:40] |
| tecuane: | it all makes way more sense now | [23:40] |
| jfw: | The OO discussion must make us class-ists too I suppose! | [23:40] |
| mircea_popescu: | you'll look up "foutez" and "camp" and decide what, "fuck me the field" is a french idiom ? | [23:40] |
| tecuane: | probably not because i dont spend my time coming up with cool linguistic comebacks in the shower in my downtime from removing other languages from my libc tbh | [23:41] |
| mircea_popescu: | did you ever do any work in an actually secure environment ? because there's a difference of perspective, you realise, between hipster doofuses trying to impress imaginary girlfriends with their code-inclusiveness, and people who write systems that do not lose other people's money. | [23:41] |
| mircea_popescu: | the latter tend to want to take crap out, the former tend to want to put crap in. | [23:42] |
| mircea_popescu: | i don't particularly care if you put a "you're beautiful today" motd in your libc. but i also can't use such a libc, so i'll have to fork it if i want to use it. which is the whole point here. | [23:43] |
| tecuane: | is your gf imaginary too or does being cold hard and full of reason make you Max Chadders | [23:43] |
| mircea_popescu: | i keep slavegirls dood, wth are you talking about. | [23:43] |
| tecuane: | it feels like you watched House MD one too many times and thought "lmao thats a really good personality trait" | [23:43] |
| mircea_popescu: | i'd ask what's house md, but you've such a terrible record answering these. | [23:44] |
| tecuane: | tv show but you probably dont watch those | [23:44] |
| mircea_popescu: | well, i did like seinfeld. | [23:44] |
| tecuane: | it might damage your smooth and imperfection-free brain | [23:44] |
| mircea_popescu: | but yeah, not recently. | [23:44] |
| jfw: | US medical drama with lead who says Mean Things but actually solves problems | [23:44] |
| jfw: | (from the very little I saw.) | [23:45] |
| tecuane: | pretty much | [23:45] |
| mircea_popescu: | no dood, they're just fucking stupid. i watch 1970s adriano celentano made-for-tv movies recently tho, so it's pretty much the same thing. | [23:45] |
| mircea_popescu: | just , you know, being a polyglot affords one choice. | [23:45] |
| mircea_popescu: | jfw, is this the clooney vehicle ? | [23:45] |
| jfw: | mircea_popescu: not sure what you mean, I don't think clooney's involved | [23:45] |
| mircea_popescu: | there's this retard who became "hot" because he was in some medical drama | [23:46] |
| jfw: | ah, House is Hugh Laurie | [23:46] |
| mircea_popescu: | a | [23:46] |
| mircea_popescu: | wait, of fry and laurie ?! aaaahahahaha | [23:47] |
| mircea_popescu: | o god, this is the funniest thing i heard all day. | [23:47] |
| mircea_popescu: | wtf, they've run out, next big thing on tv is going to be... mr bean. | [23:47] |
| tecuane: | welp my time is up and i didnt really learn anything i already knew apart from mircea_popescu likes using the synonym feature of microsoft word a bit too much and the dislike of translations is actually just not liking other languages as opposed to "there might be bugs" | [23:49] |
| tecuane: | this was less whelming than i expected | [23:49] |
| jfw: | funny how mircea_popescu probably speaks more languages than half the musl-using population combined... | [23:51] |
| mircea_popescu: | yes, but this situation was arrived at with a lot of posturing and labeling and such nonsense. | [23:51] |
| mircea_popescu: | anyway, at least i found out there's nothing on tv without having to buy one. | [23:52] |
| jfw: | a productive evening then! | [23:52] |
| diana_coman: | I am still shocked at the idea that ...uhm, was Laurie...hot? as in ..ever? | [23:54] |
| diana_coman: | iirc he worked as an ok Wooster, seemed to fit fine. | [23:54] |
| mircea_popescu: | fry and laurie was this long running british tv show made to fill the hole left by monty python. it was rabidly socialist to an utterly offensive degree, and made the popularity of both faggots involved (among the uk bernie sandals crowd) | [23:55] |
| mircea_popescu: | the only problem is the very lulzy soviet-style gerontocracy involved. i mean, they've nobody but 90yos left to "leadership" them, and if they need somebody to star in a tv production it's gonna be a dude born in the 50s ?! still, today as in 1970, as in 1980, as in forever, the heroes of socialist labour are the same exact physical items ? | [23:59] |
| diana_coman: | mircea_popescu: well, remember arsinel? lolz | [23:59] |
| mircea_popescu: | at least the original soviets had the werewithal to laugh at it on their own power, didn't need foreign polyglots to "not whelm" by pointing and laughing. | [23:59] |
Category: Logs
