Forum logs for 17 Jul 2016

Monday, 16 March, Year 12 d.Tr. | Author:
BingoBoingo: In other lulz "A third metro-east facility was also cited in June for a nonlethal paperwork violation. Midwest Rehabilitation and Respiratory Center, a 180-bed intermediate and skilled care facility at 727 N. 17th St. in Belleville, was cited with a class A violation and fined $25,000 for failure to have an emergency evacuation plan in place for bariatric patients weighing more than 1,000 pounds. Midwest has requested a hearing, which wi [00:02]
BingoBoingo: ll be July 20." [00:02]
mircea_popescu: bwahaha [00:29]
mircea_popescu: does "we take them out back and shoot them if there's any sort of an emergency" count as a plan ? [00:29]
asciilifeform: http://trilema.com/forum-logs-for-16-jul-2016#2130505 >>>>>>> http://www.loper-os.org/?p=35 [01:16]
a111: Logged on 2016-07-17 02:45 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform think of "glove" in the sense of, a cubic foot heavy box you stick hand into, move around [01:16]
asciilifeform: i suspect that ~everybody though of this item at one point. [01:17]
asciilifeform: *thought [01:17]
mircea_popescu: aha [09:08]
* mircea_popescu now wonders if idea is result of asciilifeform article sitting latent in memory, "forgotten" or if genuine case of "the obvious is obvious to all lookers". [09:09]
shinohai: ticker --market all [09:51]
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 666.27, vol: 1267.76723697 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 655.0, vol: 2626.68428 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 671.68, vol: 9729.28598569 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 650.0, vol: 5.65147028 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 666.592168, vol: 20367.56190000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 670.459, vol: 435.30186567 | Volume-weighted last average: 667.17978689 [09:51]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-17#1503965 << incidentally, a 'volkswagen'-worth of fat mass is quite the fire hazard [10:08]
a111: Logged on 2016-07-17 04:02 BingoBoingo: In other lulz "A third metro-east facility was also cited in June for a nonlethal paperwork violation. Midwest Rehabilitation and Respiratory Center, a 180-bed intermediate and skilled care facility at 727 N. 17th St. in Belleville, was cited with a class A violation and fined $25,000 for failure to have an emergency evacuation plan in place for bariatric patients weighing more than 1,000 pounds. Midwest has requested a hearing, which wi [10:08]
asciilifeform: if you kept equivalent barrel of petrol indoors, fire inspector would tear you 2nd arse [10:08]
mircea_popescu: aha. [10:10]
mircea_popescu: they seriously should be fined, monthly, per pound. [10:11]
mircea_popescu: from bmi 30 onwards, each lb of fat carries the same excise as 1 ton of gasoline. [10:11]
Framedragger: more ethereum lols - https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/4t82uq/replay_attack_redux_ef_devs_confirm_the_issue_is/ - so da developers are set on hard forking, but it is super unclear who's gonna support what. etherfolk are startled at the unthinkable possibility of two chains resulting from this mess. whoddathought. quality entertainment! [10:13]
shinohai: f2pool announced earlier they will not mine on HF so it promises to be lulzy [10:19]
Framedragger: and some exchanges will add 'ETHC' (classic non-HF ethereum) pairs. popcorn will be consumed [10:20]
* shinohai buys popcorn shares [10:21]
mircea_popescu: it is pretty good. [10:22]
mircea_popescu: $google site:btcbase.org/log/ buttseks [10:35]
deedbot: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-05-07 << 2016-05-07 [10:35]
asciilifeform: re earlier thread, the operetta is not on www, but there is a mary toft 'fan' site... https://theawl.com/how-to-give-birth-to-a-rabbit-18d158f78fcf#.u7n183jgd [10:39]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this article of yours is an outrage. [10:39]
asciilifeform: which [10:39]
mircea_popescu: i'm pretty sure i never read it before seriously, "neolythic speech patterns" ? [10:39]
asciilifeform: it was written under substances [10:40]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform does she actually shove live rabbit up her snatch behind the curtain and then squeezes it out on stage ? [10:40]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i was hoping, but.. nope. SCAM [10:41]
mircea_popescu: total scam. [10:41]
mircea_popescu: why are they so fucking... whatever they are. womanly. boring. [10:41]
asciilifeform: anyway the original incident was mighty lulzy, and quite reminiscent of modern scamatronics, and produced a great many caricatures, songs, etc at the time [10:42]
mircea_popescu: rabbit costs twenty bucks, get a young one. learning to hold it in for ten minutes is a day's entertainment. go out on stage, pop the thing, let it jump around (place carrots strategically prior). [10:42]
mircea_popescu: now that's postmodern theatre. [10:42]
asciilifeform: even the original toft never figured out how to get a live one in, and keep it alive [10:43]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform incidentally, re temperature : this is trivial for the box! there's this "weapon" idiocy of a beam which heats water in skin. not too practical as deployed, but perfectly usable in box - low latency. [10:43]
asciilifeform: aha [10:43]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what ?! put it in butt first. its nose actually protrudes 1/8 inch through opening [10:43]
asciilifeform: not very aimable though, at best you end up with the pain box from 'dune' [10:43]
mircea_popescu: you don't do it that strongly. [10:44]
mircea_popescu: the notio nthat "my palm" or "top of my hand" is touching "warm" is obtainable i'd say. [10:44]
asciilifeform: this, yes [10:44]
asciilifeform: btw mircea_popescu could, if so inclined, carry out the rabbit experiment using one of his pets, and tell how it went. [10:45]
phf: we host a vaudeville at burning man, we have a girl stop by every year, who does a striptease and then extracts objects of various complexity out of her snatch. mostly ribbons and eggs. i think there was one of those plastic chickens one time.. [10:46]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what experiment is necessary ? https://aos.iacpublishinglabs.com/question/aq/700px-394px/long-baby-rabbits-stay-mother_c2bade73e49e674b.jpg vs https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71vHuqY2cpL._SX522_.jpg [10:47]
asciilifeform: the beast writhes, neh? [10:47]
mircea_popescu: phf there's this blondy that has an epic stripping/magic act, same principle. i wonder if it's the same one. [10:47]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, warm, tight, goes to sleep. [10:48]
deedbot: [Trilema] Return to Paradise - http://trilema.com/2016/return-to-paradise/ [10:48]
phf: it could be, girl's a blond, and the act is well rehearsed and improves from year to year, so i wouldn't be surprised if she does it elsewhere too [10:51]
mircea_popescu: moreover, if female is unable to control a two ounce rabbit with her pubococcygneus she's in desperate fuycking need of kegel workouts. [10:52]
mircea_popescu: who's we, and what do i have to do to get you to host it in ba ? [10:52]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform anyway, your design is flawed because "Your appendages are, in fact, resting on thin air, supported by arm-length gloves assembled from (ferrofluid? muscle wire?) microcells that can shift in position, stiffness, angle, temperature.". that's no good - they should rest in gel not thin air. [10:57]
mircea_popescu: what's in the gel . welll. [10:57]
mircea_popescu: but the important point is to allow gradient. so it would be a continuous medium not a border thing [10:58]
asciilifeform: http://special.lib.gla.ac.uk/exhibns/month/aug2009.html << the original lultronium, neatly collected by uni of glasgow [10:59]
phf: it's a loose knit group of european burners, but i'm not sure something like that can be taken outside burning man easily. we just provide the venue (i.e. build it out of home depot scaffolding and random junk) and people are welcome to come perform. but it's been going on for a while and the venue vibe is consistent from year to year, that some decent performers find it every year. the girl with the vagina, couple of operatic singers, guys with u [11:01]
phf: kuleles [11:01]
phf: i'll ask her next time if she does that stuff in default world, i never thought to ask [11:03]
mircea_popescu: phf do me a favour and inquire with whoever's in charge what it'd take for them to do a show in buenos aires ? [11:03]
mircea_popescu: this idiocy has to be dissolved somehow. [11:04]
asciilifeform: p.t. barnum жил, жив, будет жить! [11:05]
mircea_popescu: not to say that there's anything wrong with ukulele or whatever else - but i perceive the snatch act is something the argentards wouldn't readily manage to digest. by which term we mean, of course, "reinterpret through the lens of their imbecility and thus render meaningless" [11:06]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yesterday i stormed out of a PACKED VENUE ("teatro cubo") where a "urban shock" dance troupe was going to perform. [11:07]
asciilifeform: was a snore? [11:07]
mircea_popescu: the seating was arranged in layers, like on a stadium. the dancing was to happen on a fucking university stage. [11:07]
mircea_popescu: i'm not going to entertain these inept values. [11:08]
mircea_popescu: i go watch women dance their ass off, i'm sitting at tables talking with friends and having drinks. [11:08]
mircea_popescu: what the shit. [11:08]
phf: you hafta respect the arts, see, what are you some kind of philistine [11:09]
mircea_popescu: NO! [11:09]
mircea_popescu: fucking fuck omfg you're giving me liver spots [11:09]
* phf cackles [11:09]
mircea_popescu: it is unmoglich! as the gent said [11:10]
asciilifeform: the toft thing was also on a flat stage in some rathole theatre [11:10]
asciilifeform: 3 blokes and 1 chick [11:10]
asciilifeform: and a rock band thing [11:10]
mircea_popescu: [unter diesen umstanden zu fuhren]. which, of course, is EXACTLY what the shitheads want. [11:10]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform rathole theatre means dudes in overcoats with old streetwalkers blowing them discreetely. [11:11]
asciilifeform: probably had these in the back. [11:11]
mircea_popescu: that may be, but this was a bunch of student vagrant chicks who own one pair of underwear and somehow spent 250 pesos to be there. [11:11]
mircea_popescu: (this is a fortune, for argentines) [11:11]
asciilifeform: that is, what, fiddubux? [11:11]
mircea_popescu: literally, it looked like history of art 101 in wessex community college. [11:11]
mircea_popescu: nah, like 12. [11:12]
mircea_popescu: i'm sorry, like 18. [11:12]
asciilifeform: lel, these folks live on what, spare change from the pavement? [11:12]
mircea_popescu: yes. [11:12]
mircea_popescu: empanadas, 10 peso each. [11:12]
mircea_popescu: but! they are rich in prospects! recursos! dreams hopes aspirations and human rights! soberania! gargle generally. [11:13]
mircea_popescu: just, if you press them, they can not produce a six dollar bill out of their pockets and purchases over 20 dollars DEFINITELY go on the credit card. [11:13]
asciilifeform: they have credit?! [11:13]
* mircea_popescu in shop, friday - bought two pairs of pants, because liked them. total came to 2k, which is imo very reasonable for corduroy pants. [11:13]
mircea_popescu: elder gent in front of me, dressed like uni professor / actor / whatever, put a 750 peso (~60 dollar) purchase ON AN INSTALLMENT PLAN! [11:14]
mircea_popescu: took him more to go through that than it took me to pick the store pick the pants decide i'm buying and how many. he was there when i came in, he would have been there for an hour had i not rudely interrupted his soberania & derechos humanos. [11:15]
asciilifeform: hey, when i worked at the godforsaken shithole with the homomorphic crud, nearby there was a furniture shop where you could buy a $30 lamp on layaway. [11:15]
asciilifeform: various poor black folk, did, i saw alive. [11:15]
mircea_popescu: yes, but not at the same time dress like a professor. or, for that matter, by a fifty year old white male. [11:15]
mircea_popescu: exactly my point. it's unseemly. [11:15]
mircea_popescu: if you're a beggar, at fifty, no nothing, first of all you have no business going in a shop and second of all you have no business wearing shoes. [11:16]
mircea_popescu: it is fraud, essentially, he goes about the town pretending he's a person. he's not a person, he's barely qualified to be a canary. [11:16]
asciilifeform: interestingly, i used to encounter regularly bums in (threadbare) nice suits [11:17]
asciilifeform: usually around university [11:17]
phf: presumably only suit [11:17]
asciilifeform: man has 1 suit. [11:17]
asciilifeform: aha. [11:17]
mircea_popescu: then they do these movement patters, like decerebrated chickens. and you wonder wtf happened here, this fine looking gentleman of a respectable age hasn't mastered the basics requisites of a 12 yo ? [11:18]
mircea_popescu: but HE IS THAT 12 YO! [11:18]
asciilifeform: once i saw police pulling one kicking, screaming, off a bus, he had hungarian accent [11:18]
mircea_popescu: they just conspired to dress him wrongly for who he is! [11:18]
asciilifeform: i immediately thought 'erdos, motherfuckers' [11:19]
mircea_popescu: see, don't do that. [11:19]
mircea_popescu: absolutely run of the mill mitm attack - you credit erdos' ip, which results in a market for "erdos-like ips" which people buy FOR THE REASON that they ARE NOT erdos but wish nevertheless to get your packets sent over as if they were. [11:27]
asciilifeform: except nobody buys. [11:28]
mircea_popescu: he DID get the suit, somehow, yes ? [11:28]
mircea_popescu: bought. for money or sexual favours or through fraud obtain'd matters not. [11:28]
asciilifeform: usg will pay generous pensions to 'piss christ' artists, 'sjw', lafond's hood rats, and other vermin, but ~not a penny for mathematics [11:28]
asciilifeform: presumably the man had the suit because at one point he was in work [11:28]
mircea_popescu: and presumably he had a @goodpeople.org email address because at some point was good people. [11:29]
asciilifeform: who knows where he worked. perhaps same place i did. [11:29]
thestringpuller: shinohai: roger ver gettin' exposed for censorship! [11:29]
shinohai: lol, well it's not censorship when we do it! (tm) [11:30]
thestringpuller: I'm going to write it up 4 lulz. [11:30]
mircea_popescu: it'll be a sad day for unintentional comedy when that muppet finally has enough of being milked for lulz and crawls back into whatever hole he came from. [11:31]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so you disagree with the mitm diagnosis ? [11:31]
shinohai: pffft ... Roger Ver will go broke trying to vindicate his bigger blocks vision for Bitcoin. [11:31]
asciilifeform: speaking of roger ver and fireworks, http://abcnews.go.com/US/traces-tatp-explosive-identified-central-park-blast-police/story?id=40601654 [11:31]
mircea_popescu: shinohai he can't go broke anymore, so there is that. [11:32]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i neither agree nor disagree, i did not know for a fact whether the fella on the bus was 'math bum' or not. simply that the thought came to me, 'erdos' [11:32]
mircea_popescu: aite. [11:32]
mircea_popescu: re the "we found traces of tatp" i wonder how big the market in "misdirecting chemicals" is by now. "use this additive, will make police think you used Y agent". [11:33]
mircea_popescu: it's been huge in the luxury/perfume market for a while now. [11:34]
asciilifeform: dunno, tatp is genuinely popular [11:34]
asciilifeform: on account of requiring ~0 effort. [11:34]
mircea_popescu: sure. still, stray thought. [11:34]
asciilifeform: and 0 nitrogen, so not picked up by electronic sensors at airports etc [11:34]
asciilifeform: nor dog. [11:34]
asciilifeform: goes off, as ~everyone probably knows by now, on its own, when it feels like it, but this is a minor detail to room temperature iq 'l33337 jihad d00dz' [11:35]
mircea_popescu: hey, i made nitrocellulose in my kiddy lab, the "unstable as all fuck" thing was a bonus [11:36]
asciilifeform: they really ought to make it as a bipartite thing [11:36]
asciilifeform: the way usg did nerve gases [11:36]
asciilifeform: (2 glass flasks in the shell, mix on site when broken) [11:36]
mircea_popescu: (very easy to make - pour high grade nitric acid on paper cuttings) [11:37]
asciilifeform: aha, which is why it is easier to score cocaine in usa than nitric acid [11:37]
mircea_popescu: heh [11:37]
mircea_popescu: i had a quart bottle. [11:37]
mircea_popescu: 98% [11:37]
asciilifeform: it, and others, were quite gettable in sov world [11:38]
mircea_popescu: aha [11:38]
mircea_popescu: had a quart bottle of ether, also. [11:38]
mircea_popescu: (every time i mention this in english - people either assume or else inquire if i huffed it. no i didn't fucking huff it wtf.) [11:38]
asciilifeform: when i tell usian folk about my elder brother's chemistry youth, they 'bluescreen', it 'dun compute' [11:39]
asciilifeform: 'whaddayamean, in Oppressive Orc Country you could do what we could not?! blasphemy' [11:39]
mircea_popescu: heh. [11:39]
mircea_popescu: famously, gun cotton was actually discovered by guy who accidentally poured a bottle of nitric acid on table. [11:40]
mircea_popescu: talk about "manufactured scarcity" [11:40]
phf: friend was talking about 4 of july, how the freedom loving rednecks were launching fireworks, despite all kinds of restrictions on distribution. and i was like the fuck you talking about, fireworks are easily available in any quantity and size over the counter everywhere else [11:47]
phf: girl still has wide eyed memories of me buying $300 worth of fireworks at some random store in moscows, and launching all of them in snow, in residential area, literally in front of my grandmother's apartment building [11:49]
mircea_popescu: well, residential area in moscow was made of concrete, not vinyl. [11:50]
mircea_popescu: and in other "abstinence only" news : http://66.media.tumblr.com/69482bc152ff14641c3abb8e879109a4/tumblr_nmrk0q4mJc1rgvmo2o1_500.gif [11:51]
mircea_popescu: i wonder why the fuck they've not yet come up with the concept of "well, young kids can only have sex in difficult positions". natural limitation! [11:51]
thestringpuller: later tell BingoBoingo http://dpaste.com/2ZFV6T0.txt [12:01]
gribble: The operation succeeded. [12:01]
shinohai: http://archive.is/Zn2cr <<< NeoBee "we gonna pay all you guys back, we promise frfr this time." [12:03]
Framedragger: seen maqp [12:30]
gribble: I have not seen maqp. [12:30]
Framedragger: that's too bad [12:30]
asciilifeform: $s from:maqp [12:34]
a111: 132 results for "from:maqp", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=from%3Amaqp [12:34]
asciilifeform: Framedragger: he appeared in #b-a pre-schism [12:34]
asciilifeform: was good for a number of lulz [12:35]
Framedragger: yeah just finished reading everything [12:35]
Framedragger: imho more than just lulz. but agree re 'hopelessly alone' comment [12:35]
Framedragger: incidentally prolly just grokked the main point of gossipd, i.e. http://btcbase.org/log/2016-02-07#1399507 + http://btcbase.org/log/2016-02-07#1399508 [12:37]
a111: Logged on 2016-02-07 23:57 mircea_popescu: complete anonimity between peers more than one node removed complete secrecy outside of the node group no integrity or authenticity outside of the wot trust. [12:37]
a111: Logged on 2016-02-07 23:56 maqp: so a secure communication system with no anonymity between peers, no secrecy, no integrity and no authenticity unless all peers are trustworthy [12:37]
Framedragger: a111 quoted in reversed order, argh. [12:38]
Framedragger: his blog https://maqp3d.wordpress.com/ [12:42]
asciilifeform: looks like a snore thus far [12:43]
Framedragger: it's quite alright without being too unique/revolutionary. e.g. https://maqp3d.wordpress.com/2015/09/28/whatsapp-vs-textsecure-a-closer-look-at-axolotl/ [12:45]
asciilifeform: this is precisely the definitional snore. [12:45]
Framedragger: well, let me recall if perhaps i had the same first impression when encountering your blog ca. 2010 [12:46]
Framedragger: hm honestly, maybe i didn't :) [12:46]
Framedragger: it was probably the about page where you ranted about how you were sitting in $lecture thinking about a generic associative notation system etc etc, and realizing it's a slippery slope to hell and you need to implement a lisp machine [12:47]
Framedragger: so, fair enough [12:47]
Framedragger: (the impression was "crazy smart guy") [12:48]
asciilifeform: this is very much not my impression of linked item though. [12:48]
Framedragger: that i agree with [12:48]
asciilifeform: srsly, 'whatsapp' ?! i will give half a fuck about 'whatsapp' right after i go to shanghai and learn the best ways of cooking gutter oil. [12:48]
Framedragger: doesn't have to be. but, sure, we all have limited time under the sun, so [12:48]
asciilifeform: fella's obsession with photoisolator (e.g., https://maqp3d.wordpress.com/2015/09/29/tfc-cev ) is also cargocultist. [12:49]
Framedragger: asciilifeform: what would you recommend for secure IM right now? [12:50]
Framedragger: (i do realize i'm invoking a tu quoque of sorts) [12:50]
asciilifeform: Framedragger: pgp. drop the 'I'. [12:50]
asciilifeform: and, if endpoints know one another in the flesh, otp. [12:50]
Framedragger: difficult to organize coups without the 'I'. the (shitty shitty) turkey coup used whatsapp incidentally [12:51]
Framedragger: no pfs either [12:51]
ben_vulpes: Framedragger: do pray tell how wars were fought without pre 1980? [12:51]
asciilifeform: it used what nuland orderted it to use. [12:51]
asciilifeform: *ordered [12:51]
asciilifeform: as for 'real time', there is this marvelous device known as... a clock [12:52]
asciilifeform: 'attack at quarter past noon' [12:52]
Framedragger: asciilifeform: actually with pgp you'll just end up trusting your much dreaded aes256 since openpgp will do the whole 'session' thing as you know [12:52]
Framedragger: i suppose so. [12:52]
Framedragger: (well, all implementations of openpgp anyway ^ ) [12:53]
Framedragger: ben_vulpes: war != coup but ok [12:53]
asciilifeform: Framedragger: pgp is a sad, duct-tape-laden thing, as discussed on plenty of occasions in the logz. but the proliferation of psyop 'alternatives' casts it in a surprisingly good light. [12:53]
asciilifeform: let's pick on one particular maqpism: [12:55]
asciilifeform: 'TFC-CEV is a high assurance encrypted messaging system that operates on top of existing IM clients. The free and open source software is used in conjunction with free hardware to protect users from passive eavesdropping, active MITM attacks and remote CNE practised by organized crime and state-level adversaries.' [12:55]
Framedragger: asciilifeform: i see your point. but to me "just trust in pfs for both {rsa-4096, aes-256}" still sounds pretty crazy [12:55]
Framedragger: asciilifeform: (maqp had mentioned that tpc-cev may be outdated, mind. just fyi) [12:56]
asciilifeform: the problem is quite intrinsic [12:56]
asciilifeform: you do not see it ? [12:56]
Framedragger: "on top of"? but hence his whole airgap thing [12:56]
Framedragger: "free hardware" [12:56]
Framedragger: sure [12:56]
asciilifeform: i will point with finger then: '...messaging system that operates on top of existing IM clients. The free and open source software is used in conjunction with free hardware...' [12:56]
asciilifeform: 'existing IM clients' 'open source software' 'free hardware' [12:57]
Framedragger: asciilifeform: yes i saw it: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-17#1504181 [12:57]
a111: Logged on 2016-07-17 16:56 Framedragger: "on top of"? but hence his whole airgap thing [12:57]
asciilifeform: the airgap thing is a cargo cult. sorta like proposing to prevent ALL disease by washing hands. [12:57]
Framedragger: the whole unidirectional diode thing is nonetheless cute, if not truly original or anything [12:58]
asciilifeform: it is an ancient idea, and not useless, but does absolutely nothing vs protocol-level holes, which are pestilential in 'existing IM clients', as is i think known to ~everyone [12:58]
asciilifeform: and for quite fundamental reasons, having to do with the C machine [12:58]
asciilifeform: and with 'open source software' stack as a culture. [12:59]
Framedragger: asciilifeform: i guess you have little patience for spotting potentially hopeful people, and bringing them up to speed on $ideology / teaching them / etc. which is absolutely understandable, afaiic. [12:59]
asciilifeform: fella showed up here, was offered the light, vanished. [12:59]
asciilifeform: like Apocalyptic earlier. [12:59]
asciilifeform: and many other folks. [13:00]
Framedragger: 'the light' [13:00]
asciilifeform: yes. got problem ? [13:00]
ben_vulpes: the light must be sought, it cannot be brought. [13:00]
Framedragger: my echochamber saturation is nearing 100% but not yet there ) [13:00]
ben_vulpes: student comes, submits, fights for each scrap of knowledge. [13:00]
Framedragger: s/afaiic/afaiac/ [13:01]
ben_vulpes: this is not mircea_popescu's harem where basic mathematics are beaten into slavegirls. [13:01]
asciilifeform: 'hopeful' folks are a dime a dozen. [13:01]
ben_vulpes: $s hoplite [13:01]
a111: 1 results for "hoplite", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=hoplite [13:01]
ben_vulpes: wat [13:01]
ben_vulpes: huh. "hoplite brings his own armor" anyways. [13:02]
asciilifeform: whereas folks willing to contemplate 'throw away openssl et al' are uncommon, and 'throw away von neumann machine' rarer still. [13:02]
asciilifeform: the 'hope' thing per se is worth ~0. [13:02]
asciilifeform: every maggot in every pile of festering offal has 'hope'. [13:02]
Framedragger: (well to be true, 'throw away openssl' has been seriously contemplated by any a folk recently, i would wager a guess. but perhaps much less so with the latter, sure.) [13:03]
Framedragger: *many [13:03]
asciilifeform: contemplated strictly here. and nowhere else. because, while various folks made noises about 'throw away openssl', 100% of heathens are dead-set on re-creating the very same culture that resulted in it. [13:04]
asciilifeform: the entire subject, of software as a cultural product, as opposed to a disembodied thing floating unanchored in possibility-space, is discussed ~nowhere else. [13:05]
Framedragger: sure, open source culture is mostly a pile of crap, with little to no reflection on the culture *itself*, hard to disagree with you here. [13:06]
asciilifeform: one key ingredient of the antidote to 'everything resembles openssl' is http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-13#1502498 [13:08]
a111: Logged on 2016-07-13 15:37 asciilifeform: the problem is that there is more than ~10,000 lines of it. [13:08]
asciilifeform: and more generally, [13:08]
asciilifeform: $s fits in head [13:08]
a111: 80 results for "fits in head", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=fits%20in%20head [13:08]
Framedragger: sure. [13:09]
asciilifeform: other ingredients include vtronics (every line has a sworn and cryptoauthenticated author), [13:10]
asciilifeform: merciless lustration of 'dreppers', [13:10]
asciilifeform: but, most importantly, the replacement of the foundations. [13:11]
asciilifeform: the c-machine is an idiot foundation, which inevitably breeds the pests we are familiar with. [13:11]
Framedragger: $s c-machine [13:11]
a111: 31 results for "c-machine", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=c-machine [13:11]
Framedragger: c-machine as in von neumann machine [13:12]
Framedragger: ? [13:12]
asciilifeform: c machine is mainly about untagged words. [13:12]
asciilifeform: and unbounded arrays. [13:13]
Framedragger: ah, ah [13:13]
Framedragger: teh ritchie-machine [13:13]
asciilifeform: and, secondarily, about the proliferation and endless half-hearted reimplementation of essentials like allocators, gc, bignumatron, for the lack of standard hardware-provided faculties [13:14]
asciilifeform: this is a broad subject and i will not attempt to further summarize here, i have an entire www devoted to it. [13:14]
Framedragger: (incidentally K&R (as everyone here of course knows) included shitloads of hurtful idiosyncrasies and plain mistakes, not that this would be unexpected - just lulzy.) [13:14]
asciilifeform: there is almost 9 years of material. [13:14]
Framedragger: asciilifeform: sure, i've read some of it, and will read more. i recall the general source of frustration, 'the whole stack is shit' etc [13:15]
asciilifeform: stack is shit on a ~conceptual~ rather than ~implementation~ level. [13:15]
Framedragger: sure. [13:16]
asciilifeform: Framedragger: didja read by any chance mircea_popescu's recent piece on argentine space-heaters ? [13:19]
asciilifeform: http://trilema.com/2016/cargo-cults-a-case-study << [13:19]
asciilifeform: anywhere other than ~equator, a block of flats without a boiler, plumbing, and radiators, is quite analogous to the c-machine [13:20]
asciilifeform: where instead of a hardwarized and guaranteed-correct array allocator, bignumatron, etc., there are 10,001 tiny ad-hoc pieces of shit, like the little space heaters, melting carpets, starting fires when you so much as blink [13:21]
asciilifeform: the c-machine pointer mechanism, and its non-boundchecked array access in general, is quite similar to mains wiring prior to the invention of the fuse, where mains socket has nfi that it oughtn't source 300 amps and melt itself, igniting the entire wall [13:23]
asciilifeform: the standard argument in favour of c-machine, 'transistors have a cost', holds 0 water: the modern cpu is nothing like pdp11, and has plenty of transistors wasted on idiot epicycles to paper over the retardation, e.g., page table, tlb cache, etc [13:27]
asciilifeform: not to mention various and sundry 'seeek00000rity mitigations', e.g., the intel idiocy discussed yesterday [13:27]
asciilifeform: anything but ACTUAL solution to the ACTUAL problem [13:27]
asciilifeform: (because this would leave no room for microshit, or anything like the 'sek000rity industry', or the idiot face of 'software industry' in general, to exist) [13:28]
asciilifeform: software would be a thing that is written, for particular application, once, and still used, bitwise-verbatim, 50 years later. [13:28]
asciilifeform: (incidentally there is the occasional oasis where this is actually the case, there are banks that have been running same mainframe for generations, why do you suppose they are not eager to move to pc ? to microshit ?) [13:29]
asciilifeform: the ~STABILITY~ implied in an alt-world where software ~actually works correctly~ is Ur-terrifying to the typical maggot, whether of the microshit or 'open sores' variety [13:31]
asciilifeform: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3241270848355795@naggum.no.html << see also. [13:33]
asciilifeform: 'In all likelihood, there was no change at all to the labor-intensiveness, but the labor was more "fun" for a certain class of people. Now, industrious retards can be a horrible thing. Over a number of years, close to a decade, Perl accreted bits and pieces from programming languages and became usable in lieu of a programming language by people who lacked the mental wherewithall to do programming. Tinkerers, repairers, handymen, th [13:34]
asciilifeform: e auto mechanics of the IT industry, all flocked to Perl because they could tinker so well with it with no required knowledge or skills. Thus was "programmering performed by tinkerers" born as a concept, and the tinker toys of the unskilled became better and better.' [13:34]
asciilifeform: systems which are designed by actual designers, and actually work, do not breed 'perls'. or 'web2.0 libraries'. or any of it. [13:39]
asciilifeform: these items, including most of what a modern-day programmer is familiar with, are not part of a healthy ecosystem, any more than the various fungi growing on an aids patient are normal parts of human body. [13:40]
asciilifeform: virtually all of the technological 'growth' since late '80s, is precisely of this kind. [13:42]
asciilifeform: even the much-hyped 'cheaper cpu cycle' happened only so that it could be eaten up by successive new layers of microshit. and for ~no other reason. [13:43]
asciilifeform: in other nyooz, lulzy usgtronic scam: http://www.bloomberg.com/features/2016-fake-biofuel-factory [13:46]
jurov: I think it was just because IBM thought it's good idea [13:46]
jurov: Perhaps if IBM sold lisp machines... [13:46]
asciilifeform: ibm never quite made the conceptual transition from 'calculator' to 'computer' [13:47]
asciilifeform: in other 'news', this schmuck is still in business, apparently : http://www.bloomberg.com/features/2016-cody-wilson-ghost-gunner-ar-15 [13:57]
asciilifeform: it is difficult to catalogue all of the idiocies, [13:58]
asciilifeform: e.g., why make the complex ar15 receiver, when one could design a much simpler stamped (or waterjet-cut, etc) item that would take the same barrels [13:59]
asciilifeform: or why wilson is convinced that usg will not answer simply by changing the rules so that ~barrel~, rather than magazine holder, is regulated [13:59]
asciilifeform: or why he collects megabux of donation simply to give to lawyers [14:00]
asciilifeform: or, even, 'But if Wilson wins, he says, Defense Distributed has plenty of material it’s never been able to share—a backlog of homespun, open source weapon innovations, ready to upload.' [14:00]
asciilifeform: wtf... [14:00]
asciilifeform: 'anarchist' won't upload his 13333337 w4r3z unless usg gives green light... [14:00]
asciilifeform: this is a very typical, incidentally, 'hopeful' fella as per Framedragger's http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-17#1504193 [14:01]
a111: Logged on 2016-07-17 16:59 Framedragger: asciilifeform: i guess you have little patience for spotting potentially hopeful people, and bringing them up to speed on $ideology / teaching them / etc. which is absolutely understandable, afaiic. [14:01]
asciilifeform: full of 'hope and change' but 0 perspective outside of his peculiar tunnel vision [14:02]
asciilifeform: 'i will sell machine that makes banned rifle part X' but no contemplation of 'so they'll ban part Y which my machine cannot make', or 'why not design a Z which can be made by hand' etc. [14:03]
asciilifeform: for the record, the only direction with real promise in small arms field is 'gyrojet', where the rifled and tempered barrel is unnecessary, given a self-rotating projectile, small and quite easily-made rocket [14:05]
asciilifeform: wake me up when wilson sells machine that craps out ~these~. [14:05]
asciilifeform: http://14544-presscdn-0-64.pagely.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/GyroJetCartridge.jpg << subj [14:06]
asciilifeform: not apparent in the photo: the angle of the jet holes. (the actual brilliant hack there.) [14:07]
asciilifeform: somehow i suspect that we will never run out of material for the 'idiot engineers and their tunnel vision' eternal thread... [14:09]
mircea_popescu: o.O what happened here! [14:29]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: mostly, asciilifeform's wrath bit was set [14:30]
mircea_popescu: oic [14:30]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-17#1504156 << it's the unfortunate side effect of the bezzlar washing process, that the naive / youthful fixate on the intermediate steps as if they were actual things. [14:32]
a111: Logged on 2016-07-17 16:48 asciilifeform: srsly, 'whatsapp' ?! i will give half a fuck about 'whatsapp' right after i go to shanghai and learn the best ways of cooking gutter oil. [14:32]
asciilifeform: theme of entire thread. [14:32]
mircea_popescu: usually a stay in an actual wealth management business cures this nonsense. what do you mean "what does corporation XYZ do ?! are you insane ? it doesn't DO anything, it's a fucking notational convention." [14:33]
asciilifeform: about as achievable for most folks as a stint in the reactor business. [14:33]
asciilifeform: (and would have similar consequences if achieved) [14:33]
mircea_popescu: yawell [14:33]
asciilifeform: http://www.pcworld.com/article/249951/computers/if-it-aint-broke-dont-fix-it-ancient-computers-in-use-today.html << some lulz re earlier. [15:14]
asciilifeform: 'Sparkler Filters of Conroe, Texas, prides itself on being a leader in the world of chemical process filtration. If you buy an automatic nutsche filter from them, though, they’ll enter your transaction on a “computer” that dates from 1948.' [15:15]
asciilifeform: 'Stanley Quayle, a computer emulation consultant, has seen contractors desperate to find the parts they need. "I have a prospective customer supporting a U.S. missile defense system that is buying parts on eBay," says Quayle. "Any parts they do find are as old or older than their system," meaning they’re sometimes no more reliable than the pieces they replace.' [15:17]
asciilifeform: or, more recently, http://www.cnbc.com/2016/05/25/us-military-uses-8-inch-floppy-disks-to-coordinate-nuclear-force-operations.html [15:21]
asciilifeform: ^ one in a series of many similar lulticles, which neglect to mention the inconvenient fact that folks use mechanical tabulators, vaxen, 8-inch floppies, SOLELY BECAUSE the available alternatives are microshit and drepper [15:22]
asciilifeform: the message, loud and clear, to 'software industry', from the greybears who are the only thing that presently stands between the 'civilized' world and zimbabwe, is: 'kindly die in a fire, nobody needs yer 'progress'.' [15:25]
asciilifeform: *greybeards [15:26]
ben_vulpes: unrelatedly: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/baton-rouge-police-shooting-leaves-8438367 [15:50]
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo: ^^ [15:50]
asciilifeform: 'Mr Vancel said the men were shooting at each other before the officers arrived. "This was not a 'come at police' situation they weren't targeting the police at first - I don't assume so - because these were men out here shooting at each other in an empty parking lot until the police showed up and it turned into a gun battle," he added.' << lel [15:58]
shinohai: http://archive.is/CYkMj <<< moar tor fallout [16:15]
asciilifeform: shinohai: is there context for this ? [16:19]
asciilifeform: or is it more of a general-purpose 'you suck' [16:20]
shinohai: more general purpose suckage [16:22]
asciilifeform: shinohai: there was phrase 'recent events' [16:38]
deedbot: [Qntra] Roger VER-ified Censorship Free Paradise Censors - http://qntra.net/2016/07/roger-ver-ified-censorship-free-paradise-censors/ [16:48]
BingoBoingo: "Marines Playing Pokémon Go Help Catch Attempted Murder Suspect" << It marches on [16:54]
shinohai: O.o [16:58]
BingoBoingo: ty ben_vulpes [17:05]
mircea_popescu: and in other "hey honey, how goes it" news, http://67.media.tumblr.com/fd46726f11506a7ecb04bd6fe059f35d/tumblr_nlyj3yCmk41uojv1ho1_400.gif [17:11]
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-17#1504244 << ah, i didn't yet, and ha, i see the connection.. [17:12]
a111: Logged on 2016-07-17 17:20 asciilifeform: anywhere other than ~equator, a block of flats without a boiler, plumbing, and radiators, is quite analogous to the c-machine [17:12]
Framedragger: heh. [17:12]
Framedragger: (^ http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-17#1504242) [17:12]
a111: Logged on 2016-07-17 17:19 asciilifeform: Framedragger: didja read by any chance mircea_popescu's recent piece on argentine space-heaters ? [17:12]
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-17#1504246 (and onwards) g'point. there's so much pipelining stuff going on in x86 these days that the whole "we can't afford to do bounds checking" needs to be revisited, ~yesterday.. [17:14]
a111: Logged on 2016-07-17 17:23 asciilifeform: the c-machine pointer mechanism, and its non-boundchecked array access in general, is quite similar to mains wiring prior to the invention of the fuse, where mains socket has nfi that it oughtn't source 300 amps and melt itself, igniting the entire wall [17:14]
Framedragger: the whole ragerant is appreciated, too [17:14]
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-17#1504255 << s/perl/{javascript, lookihaveagithubprofile}/ etc for "modern days", yeah... [17:16]
a111: Logged on 2016-07-17 17:34 asciilifeform: 'In all likelihood, there was no change at all to the labor-intensiveness, but the labor was more "fun" for a certain class of people. Now, industrious retards can be a horrible thing. Over a number of years, close to a decade, Perl accreted bits and pieces from programming languages and became usable in lieu of a programming language by people who lacked the mental wherewithall to do programming. Tinkerers, repairers, handymen, th [17:16]
mircea_popescu: this guy is so zen... [17:16]
Framedragger: maybe there's harmony of mind on the other end of the rage scale, too.. [17:16]
mircea_popescu: hehe ya think ? [17:17]
Framedragger: hey i'm young and new! [17:17]
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-17#1504260 << this i can relate to 100%. the fact that there is any lag between me clicking on button and the button responding is an unending, continuous insult to my face. 3bn cycles down the drain [17:19]
a111: Logged on 2016-07-17 17:43 asciilifeform: even the much-hyped 'cheaper cpu cycle' happened only so that it could be eaten up by successive new layers of microshit. and for ~no other reason. [17:19]
deedbot: [Qntra] Three Baton Rouge Officers Killed In Ambush - http://qntra.net/2016/07/three-baton-rouge-officers-killed-in-ambush/ [17:20]
BingoBoingo: Framedragger: Hole Hawg doesn't have any delay... [17:24]
BingoBoingo: If Especially adventurous can also use 2nd man on "cheater bar" so that you won't be only casualty if drill bit binds with material [17:26]
Framedragger: BingoBoingo: true that. or are you implying that delay is sometimes a good thing? (sure is - now if only the user had a choice in the matter of a predictable delay!) but, yeah it adds to the insult, methinks [17:28]
BingoBoingo: Utility of delay depends on what you are doing. If you want to counter beastly machine torque with man and a length of pipe, you're going to need some warning. [17:29]
Framedragger: for sure [17:30]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-17#1504326 <<<< http://www.loper-os.org/?p=300 [17:30]
a111: Logged on 2016-07-17 21:19 Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-17#1504260 << this i can relate to 100%. the fact that there is any lag between me clicking on button and the button responding is an unending, continuous insult to my face. 3bn cycles down the drain [17:30]
BingoBoingo: Note that even "toy" cordless dispasable drill can torque enough to mess with soft tissue in wrist [17:30]
Framedragger: asciilifeform: yeah nice, /thread. [17:35]
Framedragger: asciilifeform: ...sooo, you're certain it'd be pointless to attempt a small sane kernel for *existing* intel and/or arm madness? (i assume the answer is "yes", but just to be certain..) [17:35]
mircea_popescu: it would not be madness. [17:36]
asciilifeform: not pointless, but important to understand that result will eventually be the same pile of shit as everyone else's pile of shit. [17:36]
asciilifeform: because the hardware does NOT support sanity. [17:36]
asciilifeform: even the kind of sanity that was extant on x86 circa '90s. [17:37]
Framedragger: hrm. [17:37]
asciilifeform: (see one thread, http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-13#1502503 ) [17:37]
a111: Logged on 2016-07-13 15:38 asciilifeform: (why do 1,001 sound cards need to exist?) [17:37]
Framedragger: asciilifeform: do you think arm is by now a pit of hell, too? it *is* much more RISKy after all, designs clearer and well documented (iirc?) etc [17:37]
mircea_popescu: i don't dispute his conclusion - result will likely be pile of shit. nevertheless, the process is important. [17:38]
asciilifeform: because 1) even more of a monoculture than x86 - ALL extant arms use licensed opaque chip library blob, [17:38]
Framedragger: such project potential for tmsr after all! (of course redundancy is bad) [17:38]
mircea_popescu: it is safe to say the result of a life dedicated to science will idem be "pile of shit" [17:38]
asciilifeform: 2) NO EXTANT ARM has anything like documented i/o [17:38]
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: good point [17:38]
asciilifeform: as in, gpu, etc [17:38]
Framedragger: hm, ok, right. [17:39]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that is not necessarily a germane point. no extant arm requires you to NOT write your fucking own. [17:39]
asciilifeform: worse yet, there are at least a dozen incompatible arms. [17:39]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: chip without i/o is ~useless. [17:40]
asciilifeform: and even very humble iotrons are undocumented. last year i did an experiment, tried to find a NIC that is 1) still in production 2) has NO MAGIC BLOBS ANYWHERE. result: 0 [17:40]
asciilifeform: they ALL have turing-complete thing inside, and update (typically nonpersistent, but not always) blobs inside the vendor's binary drivers. [17:41]
Framedragger: (firmware situation and things like wifi cards are atrocious indeed, it seems) [17:41]
mircea_popescu: fpga your own tho. [17:41]
asciilifeform: on what?! [17:41]
asciilifeform: there IS NOT AN FPGA [17:41]
mircea_popescu: IN PRINCIPLE [17:41]
mircea_popescu: mwahahaha! [17:41]
Framedragger: asciilifeform: including the ones in the mobile phones, of course - yay!!1 [17:41]
mircea_popescu: anyway. while the situation is dire, no contest - the solution will be of the nature of a SOLUTION. ie, applying solvent. [17:42]
mircea_popescu: there's no possible contest on that point, either. [17:42]
mircea_popescu: not doing because "You can't do" is how 15yo virgins end up 25 yo virgins. the fucking point is to go ask the girl that'"d never say yes" [17:43]
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-17#1504350 << ....so the signing of the contract with large megacorp in my future 50s is the faustian contract with the devil?? (well... minus the "all the knowledge in the world"... and minus the girls, too) [17:43]
a111: Logged on 2016-07-17 21:38 mircea_popescu: it is safe to say the result of a life dedicated to science will idem be "pile of shit" [17:43]
mircea_popescu: Framedragger the only guarantee life comes with is that it will have been wasted. [17:43]
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: a good thing to remember, hm! [17:43]
asciilifeform: there is waste, and then there is waste: to ask gurl out is one thing, to persist in fucking a hole in a tree and praying to odin to turn it into a girl, unlike the last 9,999 times the hole was fucked, is quite another. [17:44]
asciilifeform: and in some cases the two situations are readily distinguishable to naked eye. [17:44]
asciilifeform: x86 os is the latter. [17:44]
mircea_popescu: depends. the latter makes a better story for burning man. [17:44]
mircea_popescu: jesus check out my epic joke code! [17:45]
Framedragger: asciilifeform: re turing-complete blobs in hardware, i recall http://redmine.replicant.us/projects/replicant/wiki/SamsungGalaxyBackdoor oh the wonder - you can have your "like android but moar open source omg" OS all you like, your mobile operator can still fuck you any time of day any day [17:45]
mircea_popescu: Framedragger historically, location contracts come with a key for the actual owner. [17:46]
mircea_popescu: this idea of "my machine" has serious problems when you're discussing a phone [17:46]
asciilifeform: writing 'open' whatevers for a machine where a closed radio has dma to the whole bus, is a laugh [17:46]
mircea_popescu: soviet phones were owned by state corp, say. [17:46]
asciilifeform: ditto 'open' os for a pc where closed gpu has dma. [17:46]
mircea_popescu: myeah. [17:46]
asciilifeform: the whole dma thing is a riot. [17:46]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform imagine for a second such a thing as a proper controlled-by-owner-computer phone existed. [17:47]
mircea_popescu: what now ? how do you get carrier to... carry it ? [17:47]
asciilifeform: and yes, phone belongs to the carrier, in the sense that anyone found selling phonez which do unsanctioned things, and not necessarily limited to interfering with neighbour's phone (say, proper crypto) will Have Problems very quickly. [17:47]
mircea_popescu: a phone is, definitionally, NOT a computer. nor can it be, and arguably should not be. [17:47]
mircea_popescu: the derpage of people pretending to do their copmputing on "smart" phones is, to my eyes, way the fuck more ridiculous than the attempt to you know, make a "small kernel" [17:48]
mircea_popescu: nobody burns them down, so i suppose there's lots of space for ridiculous on the street. [17:48]
asciilifeform: well, phone can be coaxed into reading www, email, etc. [17:48]
mircea_popescu: so ? [17:49]
Framedragger: ..and yet allegedly smart cs d00dz want to speak to me about anonymous publishing on the internets (yes i know, quite oxymoronic) with these little shits in their pockets [17:49]
asciilifeform: so this bloats expectations. [17:49]
mircea_popescu: sheep can be coaxed into bleating in tune. is this an orchestra now ? [17:49]
mircea_popescu: remarkable sheep. NOT remarkable musician. [17:49]
asciilifeform: aha. [17:49]
Framedragger: insulting as fuck [17:49]
asciilifeform: lel, 'anonymous' on a device that relies on accurate positional fix to even work at all. [17:49]
mircea_popescu: ^ [17:49]
asciilifeform: (and this is applicable to all variants, 'smart' and 'unsmart' etc) [17:50]
mircea_popescu: see, the fetishism thing again. it "could" be so therefore ~= is. [17:50]
mircea_popescu: these idiots built their entire minds on this broken equation. [17:50]
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-17#1504382 << this is actually a well-compressed rebuttal which shall be employed in the future. [17:50]
a111: Logged on 2016-07-17 21:46 asciilifeform: writing 'open' whatevers for a machine where a closed radio has dma to the whole bus, is a laugh [17:50]
mircea_popescu: the dao "could work" so therefore FUTURE OF CURRENCIEH OMAIGERD [17:50]
mircea_popescu: etc etc. [17:50]
asciilifeform: Framedragger: you can save astonishing piles of mental cpu cycles, time, sweat, by ignoring the obvious imbeciles, e.g., 'anon on phone' [17:50]
asciilifeform: this is a heuristic you can take straight to the bank. [17:51]
mircea_popescu: bank won't take it. [17:51]
asciilifeform: the other bank. [17:51]
asciilifeform: the one with arbolito or whichever. [17:51]
Framedragger: hehe [17:51]
Framedragger: asciilifeform: good point, i should know better [17:51]
asciilifeform: re: small kernel, recall the retro unix thread, http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-23#1488603 [17:54]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-23 18:53 asciilifeform: kinda how i boot up that cute x86 systemv and then notice that it is PALPABLY slow on modern pentium because it lacks ANY disk cache etc. [17:54]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-17#1504161 << reading the line above, i was going to ask, "can you explain the case for secure + instant" ? [17:54]
a111: Logged on 2016-07-17 16:50 asciilifeform: Framedragger: pgp. drop the 'I'. [17:54]
asciilifeform: it is a sort of inverse of the parable with the rabbi who tells schmuck to 'put in the goat and the sheep, in your house, then slowly expel them' [17:54]
mircea_popescu: this isn't just a happenstance. while it's probably not deliberately constructed, it's nevertheless a CONSTRUCT. ie, part of a culture, which depends on it. [17:54]
asciilifeform: as soon as you start putting in the missing pieces to make the system actually usable in practice (e.g., no 15 second delay on 'ls' command) you end up with... linux. [17:55]
deedbot: [Trilema] Sa ne bem siropul si sa ne cunoastem hip-hopul - http://trilema.com/2016/sa-ne-bem-siropul-si-sa-ne-cunoastem-hip-hopul/ [17:55]
asciilifeform: complete with driver babel. [17:55]
mircea_popescu: the notion that you WANT "instant" messaging is simply begging the question - you thereby and therefore DO NOT want secure, or workable, or sane. [17:55]
mircea_popescu: much like asking "how do you make working social security" skews the discussion into nonsense. [17:55]
mircea_popescu: there's a lot of these strands of cocktopus stuck in each and every pie. how do you have "democratic" syria ? turns out that you don't - you either have "democratic" yet-another-flyover-state or else syria. [17:56]
* asciilifeform bbl, meat [17:56]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-17#1504163 << and coups organized by people who don't know each other (to the degree that they actually use facebook.whatever)... fail. though the department of state idiocy in turkey was not even accomplished enough to merit the name of failure, properly speaking. [17:57]
a111: Logged on 2016-07-17 16:51 Framedragger: difficult to organize coups without the 'I'. the (shitty shitty) turkey coup used whatsapp incidentally [17:57]
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: sure, i see your point regarding implicit assumptions in "instant messaging" etc. but on a technical point, they allow for pfs through 'session secrets' without having a bunch of pre-computed keys (unknown status of distaste @ these terms here) [17:59]
mircea_popescu: it is not clear that otp actually works it is almost certain nothing else in the "pfs" gargle does. [18:00]
mircea_popescu: i think we broached this before anyway - perfect forward secrecy is not a trivial matter. [18:00]
mircea_popescu: otr* i mean. [18:00]
Framedragger: re otr, okay, it's not definite, sure. [18:00]
Framedragger: and, yeah [18:00]
Framedragger: well, i'll want near-instant-something anyway. perhaps i'm spoiled by teh culture around me (not facebook etc, but more like, well, irc) [18:01]
mircea_popescu: my evaluation of it was "rewrite" rather than "import" fwiw. but unlike tor, i have no beef with it as of yet. [18:01]
Framedragger: right. [18:01]
Framedragger: (good to know) [18:01]
mircea_popescu: this is insanity, though. suppose tomorrow you decide to implement say http://trilema.com/2013/nobody-could-have-foreseen-their-using-a-plane-like-a-rocket/ [18:02]
Framedragger: but it was nice to understand where "gossip" comes from in gossipd: it's all about *not* providing any authenticity of source (beyond "this is coming from my wot") [18:02]
mircea_popescu: so you have it all, the warehouses bought, the parts delivered, drones are assembled and ready to. for whatever reason you need to syncronize this. and whaty you will do is... [18:02]
mircea_popescu: "everyone tune in #trilema and listen for me saying go" ? [18:02]
mircea_popescu: why the fuck. [18:02]
mircea_popescu: Framedragger aha, yeah. more than that : "this is coming from my wot IF YOU ARE IN IT. maybe i'm lying to you, fucker." [18:03]
Framedragger: yeah. [18:03]
Framedragger: which is a fresh perspective for sure, regarding 'infosec' etc [18:04]
mircea_popescu: generally, tmsr stuff is very powerfully innovative exactly for this reason : that it utterly rejects ~very well selected~ priors commonly shared by "community consensus". it's a bunch of people that "can't spell properly", but not for lack of knowing grammar. [18:05]
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: re. need for synchronization, different needs for different cases? (also, near-instantaneous doesn't imply synchronous or even "with retained order" (not under all interpretations anyway)) [18:05]
mircea_popescu: my point there is that you are confusing two incompatible things : the market and the general staff. there is exactly no overlap between these structurally dijunct items and entities that tried to use the same for both (example - classical polish-lithuanian commonwealth) failed miserably FOR THIS REASON. [18:06]
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: this, incidentally and admittedly, is probably why i'm reading logz and half-lurking and all that, to be honest with you [18:06]
mircea_popescu: whart we do here would suffer from delay but would not benefit from encryption. shit, there's a log anyway. [18:06]
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: ah. right, sure ok [18:06]
mircea_popescu: what they do in the war room does not benefit from "near instantaenous". contrary to what the ustards in that position think. [18:07]
Framedragger: (agree with examples too) [18:07]
mircea_popescu: you know that bit of history ? definitely worth reading, the fall of the republic of both nations. [18:07]
mircea_popescu: in its heyday, arguably the dominant power in europe. [18:08]
Framedragger: i know to some extent but not well enough, and i'd need to find credible sources (what we've been fed in high school re this is no good, teh lithuanian perspective etc etc) [18:08]
Framedragger: sure [18:08]
Framedragger: (i've read afterwards but honestly it's still shit) [18:09]
mircea_popescu: myeah. well... read the source material. fortunately the fellows were literate, and recorded in latin. [18:09]
mircea_popescu: i dunno, maybe it's opaque without a lot of other bits not directly obvious to me but until i hear better i'll continue to believe it directly works. [18:09]
mircea_popescu: (and as a general rule, never read a summary unless you own the producer.) [18:11]
Framedragger: the latter seems hard on a practical level, even if very admirable. maybe it's a rationalization of my laziness, though [18:12]
mircea_popescu: Framedragger btw, since we're on this : you know the story of sobieski and his siege of piatra neamt ? [18:12]
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> soviet phones were owned by state corp, say. << Many phones still owned by descendants of original AT&T still collect rent [18:13]
mircea_popescu: aha. [18:13]
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: no! [18:15]
mircea_popescu: haha. ok, ima produce an english version of the official romanian story thereof. [18:15]
mircea_popescu: come back, one hour! [18:15]
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: hey - cool. [18:16]
Framedragger: (re. latin, thanks / agree, though my latin would only be good for spotting some grammar/syntax errors in modern latin, heh. but yeah...) [18:16]
* Framedragger off to bed for the time being tho. laters. [18:21]
BingoBoingo: $up Sinclair_ [18:46]
deedbot: Sinclair_ voiced for 30 minutes. [18:46]
shinohai: bash <(curl https://get.parity.io -Lk) "Use our simple one line installer!" [19:49]
mircea_popescu: ahaha for srs ? [20:05]
shinohai: No gpg signature, nor offer to review source in sight. [20:09]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-17#1504433 << holy shit, not this again ?! [20:20]
a111: Logged on 2016-07-17 22:00 mircea_popescu: it is not clear that otp actually works it is almost certain nothing else in the "pfs" gargle does. [20:20]
asciilifeform: otp is the ~only~ thing that ~provably~ worx. [20:20]
mircea_popescu: OTR! [20:20]
asciilifeform: hey i read the 'p' that was actually there, lel [20:21]
mircea_popescu: what can i tell you :) [20:21]
asciilifeform: otr is a sad sack of crumbled brick, yes. [20:21]
mircea_popescu: myeah. [20:22]
asciilifeform: are there even any extant 'otr' that don't pull in gtk, truetype, ..., etc. ? [20:25]
asciilifeform: and that don't figure in every 20th or so 0day bulletin ? [20:26]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-17#1504426 << at the risk of repeating ancient thread: real-time comms are ~costly~. because they leak bits that you may not wish leaked. [20:28]
a111: Logged on 2016-07-17 21:55 mircea_popescu: the notion that you WANT "instant" messaging is simply begging the question - you thereby and therefore DO NOT want secure, or workable, or sane. [20:28]
asciilifeform: it is known to me, for instance, that usg is presently spending stupendous sums on 'biometric' profiling of typing pattern, for as many victims as possible. [20:29]
asciilifeform: why would you want to leak keypress timings if it can be avoided ? [20:29]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no. [20:29]
asciilifeform: which no [20:29]
mircea_popescu: otr w/o the mandatory imperial shitstack. [20:30]
asciilifeform: aha. [20:30]
asciilifeform: (why profile typing rhythms? plenty of reasons - pull passphrases from audio bugs - incl. ordinary phones, pierce layers of faux-anonymity, etc.) [20:32]
asciilifeform: later tell mircea_popescu re: http://trilema.com/2016/sobieski-si-romanii , didja ever see mega-film 'ogniem i mieczem' ? [20:43]
gribble: The operation succeeded. [20:43]
asciilifeform: (it was a 3-parter, took ~40 years to make whole thing...) [20:44]
mircea_popescu: nope. [20:44]
asciilifeform: it is almost synonymous in my head with rzeczpospolita and the period. [20:45]
asciilifeform: fwiw. [20:45]
deedbot: [Trilema] Sobieski si romanii - http://trilema.com/2016/sobieski-si-romanii/ [20:46]
* mircea_popescu adds to list. [20:47]
* asciilifeform whistles the impalement theme from 'ogniem i mieczem'... [20:48]
shinohai: $s http://seclists.org/fulldisclosure/2016/Jul/51 [20:55]
a111: 1 results for "http://seclists.org/fulldisclosure/2016/Jul/51", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=http%3A%2F%2Fseclists.org%2Ffulldisclosure%2F2016%2FJul%2F51 [20:55]
* mircea_popescu ended up reading ancient gravestones from that translation, get a load of this : [20:55]
mircea_popescu: "in a dumnezeirei carte e scris ca omul se desparte de tot ce-i e mai drag pe lume, dar sfinta carte spune-anume ca despartirea nu-i pe vecie, ca revedere-o sa mai fie. nu-ti spun adio, la revedere! la revedere-n alte sfere!" [20:56]
asciilifeform: shinohai: lulzy, and typical [20:57]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: who was this [20:57]
mircea_popescu: leon negruzzi, dead 1890 [20:58]
mircea_popescu: ie, this is his epitaph. [20:58]
asciilifeform: neato [20:58]
asciilifeform: (it was very obviously epitaph, but i had nfi whose) [20:58]
mircea_popescu: it's not bad! and afik, never written down before! [20:59]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform guy was a poet/novelist mostly. [20:59]
asciilifeform: '...all the grain needed to support a village fits in a hole so small you won't likely find it in a week of searching. A week you don't have.' << this led to many lulz during ru time of troubles in 1920s [21:00]
mircea_popescu: oya. [21:00]
asciilifeform: 'продразверстка' [21:00]
mircea_popescu: first i read that as "prophylaxia" [21:00]
asciilifeform: lel [21:01]
thestringpuller: shinohai: http://qntra.net/2016/07/steem-hacked/#comment-64481 << turns out it is "accidental ponzi" from mass adoption. conclusion: if all top posters pull their earnings price goes to 0 and everyone loses. [22:02]
asciilifeform: wtf is an 'accidental ponzi' ? [22:23]
hanbot: asciilifeform it's when they don't deliberately tent their fingers with evil glee (or alternatively, pet a sleeping cat from comfortable armchair) afore launching Plans to Set the Werld on Fire. [22:27]
asciilifeform: l0lk [22:27]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-17#1504212 << perversely, what has been contemplated was not throwing it out but "what if i made one myself!" [23:01]
a111: Logged on 2016-07-17 17:03 Framedragger: (well to be true, 'throw away openssl' has been seriously contemplated by any a folk recently, i would wager a guess. but perhaps much less so with the latter, sure.) [23:01]
mircea_popescu: sorta like "revolution was contemplated before" "yes, but not in the sense of beheading the king ~AND REPLACING IT WITH NO OTHER KING!~" [23:02]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-17#1504216 << isn't this kinda strange ? the sum total of their reflectivity is inept bullshit a la "how many women" etc. this is generally the halmark of stupid people, n'est pas. [23:05]
a111: Logged on 2016-07-17 17:06 Framedragger: sure, open source culture is mostly a pile of crap, with little to no reflection on the culture *itself*, hard to disagree with you here. [23:05]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-17#1504226 << you know for the record i'm altogether unclear on this point. [23:07]
a111: Logged on 2016-07-17 17:11 asciilifeform: the c-machine is an idiot foundation, which inevitably breeds the pests we are familiar with. [23:07]
mircea_popescu: not necessarily because i'm proposing "data" ie, "here's a meaningless, unstructured pile" or "gotta do your sorting in software because we're too busy doing three level caching and besides, not like sorting is a solved problem" are workable technological choices. [23:09]
mircea_popescu: but altogether the argument seems to me something like "stick shift vehicle will always end in a crash". [23:10]
asciilifeform: large, e.g., mining trucks, had auto gearboxes as soon as it was practical... even in su [23:10]
asciilifeform: for approximately this reason. [23:11]
mircea_popescu: there's large trucks, even now, with clutch. [23:11]
asciilifeform: speaking of massive off-road things [23:11]
mircea_popescu: DOUBLE clutch, mind you. [23:11]
asciilifeform: i call this notion 'correct C fallacy'. as in, 'if yer hands dun grow from yer arse, you can write Correct C!!' [23:13]
asciilifeform: which is a fallacy because... correct-c still is not conducive to fits-in-head is not readily distinguishable by naked eye from underhanded-c cannot provide rational guarantees of handling error conditions mid-way and 10,001 other defects that don't look like defects to folks who grew up with crippled systems [23:16]
mircea_popescu: from the other direction : while i wouldn't throw away better machines if someone offered some - nobody does. [23:22]
asciilifeform: the wartime expedient is to... emulate the bettermachine. [23:23]
mircea_popescu: consider the practical, smaller example of blog software. you ... cant use it i can. [23:23]
asciilifeform: this can be done, within limits. [23:23]
Category: Logs
Comments feed : RSS 2.0. Leave your own comment below, or send a trackback.
Add your cents! »
    If this is your first comment, it will wait to be approved. This usually takes a few hours. Subsequent comments are not delayed.