Forum logs for 17 Jan 2018

Monday, 16 March, Year 12 d.Tr. | Author:
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: venmo is a touchscreen software abomination that claims to suck money out of one us account and put it into another [01:59]
mircea_popescu: phf shorts because you probably tore proper pants by climbing into tree. [05:35]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform abandoned in 2011 ? [05:36]
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/forum-logs-for-16-jan-2018#396872 << shit i used to make these! 1992 represent! [05:37]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 04:31 phf: oh, hah, i remember this "bytebeat" stuff, before it had a fancy name [05:37]
mircea_popescu: deathtrack and http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-13#1750862 ! [05:37]
a111: Logged on 2017-12-13 18:44 asciilifeform: and was played using clever method , where normally '1-bit' pc speaker membrane was allowed to travel 'partial' way , squeezing extra 'bitness' [05:37]
mircea_popescu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6QFV_2BY6w [05:38]
mircea_popescu: http://yehar.com/blog/?p=893 << how to save 50 euro for the cost of five plus liberal application of your time (which has no value). [05:58]
Techman: mircea_popescu: what isy our take on bitcoin dropping below 10K (at least on binance) [06:06]
apeloyee: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-16#1771008 << I doubt you actually understood why (If you had, you would be a lot more worried, per http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-16#1771010 ). here's a simpler version of the puzzle: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/UmpSH/?raw=true . has exactly the same bug. [06:22]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-16 15:15 asciilifeform: and yes his example snippet ~will~ barf. and no i won't spoil the puzzle by saying where and how. and no it is not hard to make 9000 similar examples. [06:22]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-16 15:15 asciilifeform: if anyone finds so much as the smell of one -- i would like to hear about it, asap. [06:22]
apeloyee: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-16#1771004 << it's not me that does it at the expense of obvious correctness, but _you_. instead of having the compiler enforce no access to Stack(0), one is forced to rely solely on manual checking. But enough about that trivial matter I'll just make the change locally. [06:28]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-16 15:13 asciilifeform: and willing to do so at the expense of obvious correctness ? [06:28]
esthlos: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-16#1771055 << My thought was to scrap the current client in favor of a customized one, with eucrypt protocol as the backbone. Is this 1. not what you want, or 2. a bad idea? [08:09]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-16 15:57 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-16#1770890 << to be clear, the idea here is that you pick up the extant eulora client, gut it of the current eulora functionality, put eucrypt in there and proceed to implement your idea. this way you have a proved-to-cross-compile platform to start from. [08:09]
esthlos: Rereading, seems clear that you want eulora's graphics engine. [08:15]
esthlos: Alternative is stupidly simple text-driven client downloads multimedia using eucrypt [08:20]
shinohai: Text-driven client is the holy grail for some of us Eulora people. [08:23]
esthlos: shinohai: I've targeted this as my first real contribution to la serenissima [08:37]
shinohai: You have my full support, and will be glad to help read/test any code you produce. [08:38]
shinohai: I started some work on this over a year ago, simply too much work for me because of irl obligations unfortunately. [08:39]
diana_coman: esthlos, "current eulora functionality" has nothing to do with graphics really and client is totally up to players [08:45]
diana_coman: you can play it with whatever client you want, that's the point [08:45]
shinohai: !~later tell BingoBoingo Be sure to get your Bitcorn http://bitcorns.com/ico.html [08:53]
jhvh1: shinohai: The operation succeeded. [08:53]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771637 << your item clobbers the modulus as it runs. what i dunget, is why this would justify making the range of SP wider than Stack itself, as seen in your paste earlier. [09:11]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 11:22 apeloyee: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-16#1771008 << I doubt you actually understood why (If you had, you would be a lot more worried, per http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-16#1771010 ). here's a simpler version of the puzzle: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/UmpSH/?raw=true . has exactly the same bug. [09:11]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771640 << MustNotZero has 0 to do with Stack(0), it is there to keep the tape from creating a div0 [09:13]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 11:28 apeloyee: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-16#1771004 << it's not me that does it at the expense of obvious correctness, but _you_. instead of having the compiler enforce no access to Stack(0), one is forced to rely solely on manual checking. But enough about that trivial matter I'll just make the change locally. [09:13]
asciilifeform: and no, not 'enough', i'd like to find out wtf apeloyee was thinking [09:14]
asciilifeform: specifically, why : [09:15]
asciilifeform: subtype Stack_Positions is Natural range 0 .. Height [09:15]
asciilifeform: type Stacks is array(Stack_Positions range <>) of FZ(1 .. Wordness) [09:15]
asciilifeform: - Stack : Stacks(Stack_Positions'Range) [09:15]
asciilifeform: + Stack : Stacks(1..Height) [09:15]
shinohai: Logged: 09:17 +Hasimir and yes, libgcrypt is part of the larger project, Werner and Niibe are at the core of GNU security. [09:22]
asciilifeform: the proper way to enforce 'no access to Stack(0)' would be to constrain Stack_Positions to 1 .. Height. but this leaves no way to represent an empty stack. [09:22]
shinohai: !~ticker --market all [09:38]
jhvh1: shinohai: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 9568.75, vol: 38790.17876819 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 9459.4, vol: 131533.8373469 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 9569.0, vol: 10706.6833868 | Volume-weighted last average: 9489.31292948 [09:38]
esthlos: diana_coman I didn't mean to imply it would be "official" (tm) client [10:02]
esthlos: but having one in existence would help fellows in shinohai's position [10:09]
diana_coman: esthlos, certainly, not an issue I think you are overthinking/overreading into this [10:09]
shinohai: Well as diana_coman said, Eulora encourages one to customize to one's liking. [10:09]
shinohai: You can play with pen and paper, I'm sure, if you find a method for so doing. [10:10]
diana_coman: and fwiw see history of foxybot: it started precisely like that, as a player-made-for-own-use thing and it ended up bundled into "official" client [10:10]
diana_coman: not by accident either it's s.mg policy [10:11]
* shinohai snail-mails diana_coman all my claim updates, looks around forlornly as they all vanish into lbn .... [10:11]
diana_coman: now hmm, where was that bit written on trilema [10:11]
diana_coman: esthlos, here it is: http://trilema.com/2015/ok-so-what-is-eulora-disrupting/ [10:14]
apeloyee: MustNotZero has 0 to do with Stack(0) << I know. [10:19]
shinohai: Round 1 .... FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT! [10:19]
apeloyee: Hear, hear! If asciilifeform would agree to take discussion of why 1+1=2 elsewhere, I'll do. [10:20]
asciilifeform: apeloyee: let's hear the answer to the riddle ? [10:21]
asciilifeform: i'ma listen [10:21]
apeloyee: which. [10:22]
asciilifeform: both parts [10:22]
apeloyee: the change to size Stack in the first paste was irrelevant [10:23]
apeloyee: *size of Stack [10:23]
asciilifeform: that part i get, it doesn't have anything to do with the clobbering of the modulus [10:23]
apeloyee: yes [10:23]
apeloyee: why should correctness depend on order of the arguments? [10:24]
apeloyee: (on FFACalc stack) [10:24]
asciilifeform: because we're overwriting an input ? [10:24]
asciilifeform: could just as easily not, with temp buffer. but why. [10:25]
asciilifeform: it is not my place to make every possible mutilation of the program, safe. ( and is quite impossible ) [10:25]
asciilifeform: prolly FZ_Mod_Exp oughta accumulate Product in a temp, and shit it out in 1shot in the end, like FZ_Mod_Mul. [10:26]
asciilifeform: though it is a waste of space and time. [10:26]
asciilifeform: i never proclaimed, fwiw, that all ffa routines must be able to cleanly walk over own inputs. [10:27]
apeloyee: what functions can tolerate aliasing of arguments is talked of precisely nowhere. and it's easy to forget about that when changing them later. and aliasing is used extensively. [10:28]
apeloyee: so can't say "don't do that" [10:28]
asciilifeform: used extensively ? where, other than the stack ops ? [10:28]
apeloyee: FZ_Mux [10:29]
apeloyee: is invoked many times with output = one of inputs [10:29]
esthlos: diana_voman very likely am over thinking things [10:30]
esthlos: lol diana_coman [10:30]
asciilifeform: has apeloyee found a specific instance where it can be made to eggog ? or is this a hypothetical 'once less clueful people start changing things' observation ? [10:30]
esthlos: I will proceed one step at a time [10:30]
apeloyee: the latter. [10:30]
asciilifeform: because there isn't actually a limit as to what less-clueful people can break, regardless of what i do [10:31]
asciilifeform: but i can't help but agree with apeloyee re the Product in FZ_Mod_Exp , it gotta be buffered. [10:31]
diana_coman: esthlos, lol! auto-completion helps [10:31]
asciilifeform: the cost is small in comparison with the mod-exping per se [10:31]
apeloyee: this can be used to justify pointer arithmetic and what-not. Just don't do unsafe things!! [10:31]
apeloyee: FZ_Mod_Mul also [10:32]
asciilifeform: the ch7 one ? yea [10:32]
apeloyee: (as implemented in chapter 7, but not chapter 6) [10:32]
asciilifeform: aha [10:32]
asciilifeform: i'ma buffer'em. [10:32]
asciilifeform: really all routines oughta behave consistently in re input-overwrite. [10:33]
shinohai: Diana Voman sounds very Soviet to me for some reason. [10:33]
asciilifeform: this is a bit of a downer, i confess that i hoped apeloyee had found a more subtle, lethal boojum. [10:34]
apeloyee: and add a new exercise: re-read all previous chapters and write what aliasing of arguments is safe [10:34]
apeloyee: nope,sorry [10:34]
asciilifeform: lol [10:34]
asciilifeform: apeloyee still wins 'most attentive eagle eye' award. [10:35]
asciilifeform: the 1 caveat re buffers, is that there is a practical limit as to what can be made anticlobbering: if i were to do it to items that occur in inner loops of O(n^3)istic items, e.g. mux, proggy will end up 'geological' 4ever. [10:36]
apeloyee: I think everything up to ch.5 is safe as long as arguments are either equal or don't overlap [10:37]
apeloyee: *memory locations of the arguments [10:37]
asciilifeform: afaik it isn't actually possible to write overlap-safe routines without implicit (or otherwise) branches [10:38]
asciilifeform: in the general case. [10:38]
apeloyee: does gnat provide a facility to check aliasing at runtime? [10:39]
asciilifeform: partially ( for array copies ) . but it gets nuked by No_Implicit_Conditionals. [10:40]
asciilifeform: ffa itself is a sort of tightrope walk, an attempt to 'и рыбку съесть и нахуй сесть' . it isn't actually possible to make all of the routines able to take every conceivable kind of compile-time abuse ( which i'd argue overlap of arguments, is ) without conditional jumps. [10:42]
apeloyee: conditional jumps are OK if one of the destinations just aborts the program [10:43]
apeloyee: as with MustNotZero [10:43]
asciilifeform: right, e.g. the range checks [10:43]
asciilifeform: ( they don't appear in the code, but they exist ) [10:43]
apeloyee: aliasing checks are like range checks in this regard [10:44]
asciilifeform: No_Implicit_Conditionals does not affect such jumps however [10:44]
asciilifeform: ( observe , they are still present in the disasm ) [10:44]
apeloyee: then why "it gets nuked by No_Implicit_Conditionals."? wreckers (tm)? [10:45]
asciilifeform: it isn't a wrecking [10:45]
asciilifeform: No_Implicit_Conditionals is working as described on the box : https://docs.adacore.com/gnathie_ug-docs/html/gnathie_ug/gnathie_ug/using_gnat_pro_features_relevant_to_high_integrity.html#controlling-implicit-conditionals-and-loops [10:45]
asciilifeform: and afaik gnat does not know how to prevent aliasing in the general case, but only in a few specific situations ( array copies ) [10:48]
apeloyee: well, ideally it would have a "No_Out_Arguments_Aliasing" restriction which would insert runtime checks [10:50]
asciilifeform: yea [10:50]
asciilifeform: but afaik no such item exists , even in '2012' [10:50]
apeloyee: gnat implements many nonstandard restrictions [10:50]
asciilifeform: possibly one can make a SPARKistic proof of non-aliasing , for proggy taken as a whole. i'ma look into it. [10:51]
asciilifeform: thing is, a sparkism is not a substitute for a 'fits-in-head'-correct routine. [10:52]
asciilifeform: proggy ought to be written in such a way that the reader can ~see~ that it is correct. [10:52]
asciilifeform: this is the #1 type of stylistic fix that i look for -- 'can this be made more obviously-correct-when-used-as-prescribed' and 'can use-as-prescribed be made more obvious' [10:53]
apeloyee: yes. hence me bringing this item here [10:54]
asciilifeform: aha. ty apeloyee , for taking the sweat to do this. [10:55]
asciilifeform: i'm still curious re the SP tho [10:55]
asciilifeform: can you think of a way to have the range of SP and of Stack be the same, but to still represent concept of 'empty' ? [10:55]
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all [11:27]
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 9962.0, vol: 43036.01398257 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 10082.0, vol: 142442.83558633 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 10048.3, vol: 11690.3715496 | Volume-weighted last average: 10053.8095595 [11:27]
asciilifeform: oh hey waterfall working again [11:27]
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Are you sure? http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-16#1603917 [11:28]
a111: Logged on 2017-01-16 18:11 jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 828.5, vol: 5371.02382600 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 819.819, vol: 4067.02976 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 827.09, vol: 7289.43424066 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 820.81503, vol: 506972.47910000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 834.0, vol: 1190.23580128 | Volume-weighted last average: 821.002992125 [11:28]
BingoBoingo: 10+x crashing over last year [11:29]
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: hey they only nao plugged it back in [11:29]
BingoBoingo: Nah, this appears to be an Azn attempt at replicating white person's waterfall [11:32]
shinohai: Gotta sell all my Bitcorn before the Missus finds out I spent all our monies on the Bitconnect ponzi. [11:35]
apeloyee: can you think of a way to have the range of SP and of Stack be the same << this is plainly absurd. a N-sized stack has (modulo contents) N+1 possible states: "0 elements", "1 element", ..., "N elements". i.e.the ranges MUST differ, by exactly one. [11:39]
BingoBoingo: In other shithole factories: meltdown/specte patches are making a bunch of industrial systems wobble! Chinesium's about to get a low more Pinoy [11:40]
asciilifeform: apeloyee: i dunget why absurd ? my other arrays behave this way. [11:41]
asciilifeform: i.e. in all cases where the array has a custom indexing type as the index, the array exists over the entire range of said type. [11:42]
asciilifeform: concretely, e.g., Dividend_Index in http://btcbase.org/patches/ffa_ch7_turbo_egyptians#L31 [11:43]
asciilifeform: apeloyee: a long-term goal is to have the whole proggy bulletproof even after building under '-gnatp' ('disable all range checks'). relying on the range check of Stack , vs SP's range, does not go well with this [11:48]
apeloyee: Logically, SP isn't a reference. It's a cursor, showing the boundary between the valid and invalid elements. If a line in a text editor has N sybols, then a cursor has N+1 valid positions. (Consider that an empty line sill has 1 valid cursor position). [11:48]
asciilifeform: ideally there would be some way to trap any reference to the zero cell, or , failing that, to prove that the zero cell cannot end up referenced. [11:48]
asciilifeform: apeloyee: well yes, i get it. but i DON'T LIKE it. [11:49]
asciilifeform: i'd like to resolve the apparent contradiction between 'all possible SP positions are valid dereferences' and 'stack can be empty'. [11:49]
apeloyee: an extra element won't save the father of russian democracy (c), if FFACalc stack manipulation code is wrong e.g. if a 'Want(X)' statement is omiitted [11:54]
asciilifeform: right. but why would it be omitted. [11:54]
asciilifeform: one way i considered doing this, is to do away with all such things as 'SP - 1', 'SP - 2', etc. and instead to have e.g. Get_Stack_First, Get_Stack_Second, etc., each of which individually would ensure that the desired element exists. but these would have to return 'access type' (pointers) which thus far i've avoided using . [11:56]
apeloyee: if FFACalc code is correct, then it's also safe to omit that zero-indexed element from Stack [11:56]
asciilifeform: this is true. but 1) ugly 2) possibly will get in the way of sparkism, later it relies on type ranges for good chunk of the proofolade [11:56]
asciilifeform: hmm, what if one were to model SP as in apeloyee's analogy, the text editor cursor. i.e. the pos of the ~next~ valid stack cell, rather than 'current'. [11:59]
asciilifeform: then to refer to current, would be 'SP - 1' rather than 'SP' [12:00]
apeloyee: no need [12:00]
apeloyee: cursors are pointing _between_ elements [12:01]
asciilifeform: well it'd turn a pop from empty stack into a range-dipping eggog instantly [12:01]
asciilifeform: and abolish need to want() [12:01]
asciilifeform: ( at the very least, if range checks are enabled for ffacalc ) [12:01]
asciilifeform: there's an explicit range test construct, btw [12:02]
apeloyee: the proper range for a cursor into an array (1..N) is (0.5 .. N+0.5) this is usually shifted to become (1 .. N+1) as in text editors, but no reason not to shift in the other direction, as you did, to (0..N) [12:03]
apeloyee: (other than convention) [12:04]
apeloyee: SP _is_ a cursor, I'm merely suggesting to treat it as such [12:05]
apeloyee: "1) ugly" << can't see that. "2) ... it relies on type ranges for good chunk of the proofolade"<< if you really want, can explicitly declare a subtype of Stack_Positions, omitting 0 from it [12:08]
apeloyee: that _would_ be ugly indeed [12:09]
apeloyee: well it'd turn a pop from empty stack into a range-dipping eggog instantly << the reason I even suggested that 3 weeks ago [12:10]
ben_vulpes: https://neopg.io/ [12:17]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-08#1748666 [12:17]
a111: Logged on 2017-12-08 13:39 asciilifeform: meanwhile, on the hannoboeck planet, https://neopg.io << usg tool marcus brinkmann proclaims 'clean rewrite of gpg' , with fanfare, spamola ( e.g. http://www.openwall.com/lists/oss-security/2017/12/08/1 ) , 'modernisms', the full shebang. [12:17]
ben_vulpes: shit! [12:17]
asciilifeform: apeloyee: afaik it isn't possible to make types 'with hole' [12:27]
apeloyee: 0 is at the boundary [12:28]
asciilifeform: so what would empty stack look like , in this variant ? [12:28]
apeloyee: as in my patch [12:29]
apeloyee: SP=0 [12:29]
asciilifeform: this is not equiv to cursor behaviour in text editors, though. there, cursor always is pointing to a valid fillable cell [12:30]
apeloyee: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771787 [12:31]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 17:03 apeloyee: the proper range for a cursor into an array (1..N) is (0.5 .. N+0.5) this is usually shifted to become (1 .. N+1) as in text editors, but no reason not to shift in the other direction, as you did, to (0..N) [12:31]
asciilifeform: currently seems to me that ~all~ of the possible variants, are similarly ugly [12:33]
apeloyee: what's ugly about my proposal? only two lines changed [12:36]
asciilifeform: the fact that an array is indexed by a type which has a range outside of the array's. [12:38]
asciilifeform: at the risk of repeating myself. [12:38]
asciilifeform: ideally there would be NONE of any such thing, in the entire program. [12:38]
asciilifeform: i.e. if you see an array reference, you ~know~ that it is valid, because of the type of the index. [12:39]
asciilifeform: as in the http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771768 example. [12:39]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 16:43 asciilifeform: concretely, e.g., Dividend_Index in http://btcbase.org/patches/ffa_ch7_turbo_egyptians#L31 [12:39]
asciilifeform: mine is also ugly, it is conceivable that somebody, some day, in a broken variant and running with -gnatp, ~will~ write to the zero cell [12:40]
asciilifeform: this however is preferable than writing to the return addr on the stack ! [12:40]
asciilifeform: *preferable to [12:40]
asciilifeform: the fundamental riddle is whether this is an ~avoidable~ instance of http://btcbase.org/log/2016-01-21#1379603 -ism [12:41]
a111: Logged on 2016-01-21 13:29 asciilifeform: 'if i make it what i think is the right size, it crashes!111' [12:41]
apeloyee: ~will~ write to the zero cell << why not to minus-one cell then [12:42]
asciilifeform: i was about to add : [12:42]
asciilifeform: possibly there ought to be not 1 but... 4 null cells [12:42]
asciilifeform: to carry this to logical conclusion [12:42]
asciilifeform: ( i.e. equal to the arity of the highest-arity stack op ) [12:43]
asciilifeform: the other open q is where to draw the line re 'somebody, some day, with mutilated ffa' . [12:45]
asciilifeform: because it gotta be drawn somewhere. [12:45]
apeloyee: doesn't gnat have a facility to control the layout of memory? [12:45]
asciilifeform: what do you have in mind, apeloyee ? [12:46]
apeloyee: put a dummy array of 4 (or whatever) elements just before the Stack [12:46]
asciilifeform: there is not, afaik, a way to force stack frames to be explicitly padded [12:46]
asciilifeform: and at any rate the right place for such a thing is in the code, rather than in the guts of the linker [12:46]
asciilifeform: pc arch also does not, unfortunately, give a way for userland to trap on reads/writes to specific piece of memory [12:47]
asciilifeform: this is a fundamental headache [12:48]
apeloyee: Don't Turn Off Bounds Checks. [12:48]
apeloyee: and there's no problem. [12:48]
asciilifeform: easy to say on 3GHz+ pc [12:48]
asciilifeform: how about when it goes in a 25mhz micro ? [12:48]
asciilifeform: i don't see any reason why the thing should ~rely~ on adatronicn bounds checks for correctness. [12:49]
asciilifeform: *adatronic [12:49]
apeloyee: it... doesn't? [12:49]
asciilifeform: well right now it doesn't [12:49]
apeloyee: Want() etc [12:49]
asciilifeform: right [12:49]
asciilifeform: ideally could somehow get rid of want() tho, AND not rely on implicit bounds checks [12:49]
asciilifeform: AND be correct-to-naked-eye [12:50]
apeloyee: "five-angled heptagon" [12:50]
asciilifeform: maybe [12:50]
asciilifeform: or maybe not. i say it is an open problem. [12:50]
asciilifeform: ftr several different items in ffa seemed to me to be 'five-angled heptagons' (starting with how to compute the asm-less addition carries) until i solved'em [12:53]
asciilifeform: one way to model this process is that there is an 'ugliness budget', just like there is a cpu cycle budget, that can be 'spent' in certain ways [12:55]
asciilifeform: ideally so as to maximally compartmentalize and document the ugly [12:55]
asciilifeform: or for another example, take the ugliness and 'pointericity' of the traditional 'pivoting' form of karatsuba. which i killed by forcing all FZ bitnesses to be powers of 2. [12:59]
asciilifeform: incidentally there were pivot-position bugs in commonly-used karatsubas as late as the early 2000s. [13:00]
asciilifeform: ( prolly still are today, somewhere in ssl liquishit ) [13:00]
asciilifeform: apeloyee: here's another idea from my notes , that would do the job : to dispense with the array representation for the stack, in favour of linked list. ada permits the definition of a 'not null' pointer type (whose non-nullity is checked on every reference) . [13:07]
asciilifeform: however this introduces explicit pointerism. ( though, i will add, NOT pointer-arithmetism ) [13:07]
asciilifeform: want() would then vanish both stack underflow and overflow checks would be handled by the nullity check ( first cell has a null in its 'prev' slot last cell in stack -- in its 'next' . ) [13:09]
asciilifeform: whether this is cleaner than the existing item, i will leave up to the readers, incl. apeloyee . [13:10]
asciilifeform: currently it actually seems to me , to be cleaner -- in that its correctness proof is simpler, does not use arithmetic at all [13:10]
asciilifeform: you can trivially show that any attempt to walk under or over the stack, would have to involve a null-dereference. [13:11]
asciilifeform: nao that i think about it, it doesn't even have to introduce 'access types' ( pointers in ada ) , can use ordinary integers [13:12]
asciilifeform: so a stack cell would contain not only an FZ of the current bitness, but two boolean values, e.g. HasPrev and HasNext [13:13]
asciilifeform: the first cell has a false HasPrev the last -- a false HasNext. [13:13]
asciilifeform: ( i will omit the rest of the mechanism, i think it is pretty obvious ) [13:13]
apeloyee: it's a wonder -gnatp doesn't disable nullity checks [13:22]
asciilifeform: doesn't seem to , in gnat '2016' [13:24]
asciilifeform: but this is one of the reasons why there is no escape from disasm [13:24]
asciilifeform: will have to see what gets removed, what -- not [13:24]
asciilifeform: the variant with booleans doesn't rely on non-nullities tho. [13:25]
asciilifeform: it's simply an arithmetic-free version of want(). [13:25]
asciilifeform: speaking of which, could even have a stackmachine with circular ring for a stack. [13:27]
asciilifeform: ( i'd rather not. but there is nothing fundamentally unusable about it ) [13:28]
apeloyee: https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gnat_ugn/Alphabetical-List-of-All-Switches.html#Alphabetical-List-of-All-Switches : "-gnateA" Check that the actual parameters of a subprogram call are not aliases of one another. [13:49]
asciilifeform: oh hey neato [13:49]
asciilifeform: apeloyee: do you know how it behaves under -gnatp ? [13:49]
apeloyee: no idea. just found. [13:50]
asciilifeform: ( other q is whether it understands overlaps, as well as exact-match aliases ) [13:50]
asciilifeform: !!up freetlas [13:50]
deedbot: freetlas voiced for 30 minutes. [13:50]
asciilifeform: who might you be , freetlas ? [13:50]
freetlas: Wow, first time I see too many people in here :o [13:51]
asciilifeform: freetlas: you did not answer the question [13:52]
freetlas: asciilifeform: Just a person who likes to read trilema from time to time :) [13:52]
apeloyee: from above: "Check that the actual parameters of a subprogram call are not aliases of one another. To qualify as aliasing, the actuals must denote objects of a composite type, their memory locations must be identical or overlapping, and at least one of the corresponding formal parameters must be of mode OUT or IN OUT. " [13:52]
asciilifeform: apeloyee: neato. gotta wonder how this is implemented tho. [13:52]
apeloyee: this is gpl gnat tho [13:53]
asciilifeform: i can't picture how without a megatonne of conditionaljumps. but maybe just failure of my imagination. [13:53]
apeloyee: of unknown version [13:53]
apeloyee: nuffin wrong with conditional jumps, if one destination aborts. [13:54]
asciilifeform: from leakage pov yes [13:54]
asciilifeform: from pipeline-blowing pov -- expensive. [13:54]
apeloyee: prediction would be perfect [13:54]
asciilifeform: if gcc actually puts in the 'jump-likely' . currently i have nfi whether it does. [13:55]
Covale`: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771610 - no, not mine, I don´t have one. Neither do I have that cup, but it´s a pretty decent Lenin nonetheless [14:11]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 01:29 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-16#1771435 << hey, is that your blog then ? [14:11]
BingoBoingo: Now that was a wasted voice [14:26]
apeloyee: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765560 << this looks to be the only safe way. asciilifeform : don't you think that's insane? [14:27]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 23:30 asciilifeform: trinque: if you really hate files, you are welcome to make the whole proggy 1 file [14:27]
BingoBoingo: It gets 30 minutes with the audience, remarks on the size on the audience, and then silence [14:28]
asciilifeform: apeloyee: waiwat [14:28]
asciilifeform: i must've missed something [14:28]
apeloyee: a vpatch's purpose is twofold. 1) to provide a way to construct some files based on some antedecent files, whose hashes are given. 2) to take some responsibility about the entire tree. but the signature on a vpatch doesn't fix the state of the tree it is defined implicitly by antedecent patches, which are liable to change at any time ("regrinding") and thereby change some files not... [14:31]
apeloyee: ...referenced in a particular vpatch [14:31]
apeloyee: hence the hash-manifest proposals [14:32]
asciilifeform: apeloyee: the 'liable to change' thing was very much NOT part of my orig design for v. [14:32]
apeloyee: really it's CVS over again [14:32]
asciilifeform: imho it is an abuse. [14:32]
asciilifeform: apeloyee: some of the 'cvsism' is deliberate -- cvs made collaborative writing harder by accident, we -- on purpose !11 [14:33]
apeloyee: files are NOT INDEPENDENT. despite CVS and v pretending they are. this is a problem. you could have required some form of cryptographic commitment to either the tree state or even the antedecent patches themselves, but didn't [14:34]
asciilifeform: apeloyee: see the quite 'flammable' log from that thread. i put the burden of correct operation ~100% on the human operator. [14:35]
asciilifeform: apeloyee: trinque and mircea_popescu would like to put more of it on the machine. i haven't with what to dissuade them, it is a philosophical q, not even technical. [14:36]
asciilifeform: and yes it is entirely true that files-are-not-guaranteedly-independent. [14:36]
apeloyee: do you advocate the brick "lisp machine", too? [14:37]
asciilifeform: hey it's the only kind i have nao!11 [14:37]
asciilifeform: ( asciilifeform traded his lispm for two last-made lispm single-ic cpu... ) [14:37]
apeloyee: well, your point seems to be specifically that work which can be done by machine is shifted onto a human. this is insane. [14:39]
asciilifeform: as i described in the linked thread, forcing the entire program under the antecedent hasher is not free [14:40]
asciilifeform: it severely constrains the kind of things you can do without manual surgery [14:40]
asciilifeform: so it is not correct to say 'you made the man do what the machine could do.' rather, lightened the work for operator for one kind of operation, and made heavier -- other kind. [14:41]
BingoBoingo: And in other news, a police car exploded near the Brazilian border https://www.elobservador.com.uy/bomberos-explosion-auto-policial-fue-intencional-n1160744 [14:43]
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: and on most days they do not ? [14:43]
asciilifeform: fenómenos que "no tiene antecedentes" en el país << orly? [14:43]
BingoBoingo: On most days they do not explode on this side of the border. [14:43]
asciilifeform: ( it borders, e.g., columbia. nothing exploded there ?0 ) [14:44]
BingoBoingo: The closest thing so far was they time an Israeli embassy worker was busted with a bomb or fake bomb near the WTC [14:44]
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Uruguay pointedly does not border Columbia. Other side of the Continent [14:44]
asciilifeform: i was speaking of brazil [14:45]
BingoBoingo: Ah [14:45]
BingoBoingo: Anyways Artigas is about as far north as you can get in Uruguay. [14:46]
apeloyee: that's a spurious objection. one need not to sign an antedecent state, one needs to sign a RESULTING state. to expand on http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771900 , you're free to pick individual files from wherever, possibly several different trees, but there needs to be a tree hash in the _leaf_ patch. and it MUST match the resulting tree (under the principle that patch author takes the... [14:47]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 19:31 apeloyee: a vpatch's purpose is twofold. 1) to provide a way to construct some files based on some antedecent files, whose hashes are given. 2) to take some responsibility about the entire tree. but the signature on a vpatch doesn't fix the state of the tree it is defined implicitly by antedecent patches, which are liable to change at any time ("regrinding") and thereby change some files not... [14:47]
apeloyee: ...responsibility for the resultant tree state).. otherwise it's unclear what one signs. [14:47]
trinque: they're equivalent neh? signed antecedent state or signed resulting state + fact that the patch is signed [14:50]
trinque: and in the case of signed antecedent state, don't have to press first to know if you could [14:51]
apeloyee: well, a hash is not the same as the signature, but otherwise yes. [14:52]
apeloyee: but there can be several of them [14:53]
apeloyee: for merging [14:53]
trinque: pretty obvious I'm saying signed hash, i.e. hash is in the signed vpatch [14:53]
asciilifeform: trinque is right tho, they are equivalent [14:54]
asciilifeform: and in both cases, the ability to explicitly mark subsystems as independent ( e.g. a readme.txt being independent from doesallthework.adb ) is lost. [14:54]
asciilifeform: iirc mircea_popescu's argument was that it is wrong to say that they could ~ever~ be properly independent. and that if they could be shown to be independent, they ought to be separate v-trees. [14:55]
asciilifeform: i don't have a good counter-argument to this. [14:56]
asciilifeform: however it DOES mean even ~more~ work for folx using v, than ever before. and not less. [14:56]
asciilifeform: potentially exponentially more. [14:56]
asciilifeform: for multi-author projects, that is. [14:56]
asciilifeform: for single-author, e.g. ffa, nothing really changes. [14:56]
trinque: asciilifeform: to see if I can restate your opinion back to you, if I edit (as single author) both readme.txt and doesallthework.adb in separate vpatches, your view is I combine those into a single vpatch, if I want to build atop both in a new vpatch? [14:58]
asciilifeform: trinque: under classical v, or trinqueian ? [14:59]
trinque: classical. [14:59]
asciilifeform: under classical, you can grab antecedents from any trees you want, by copying files, aha [15:00]
asciilifeform: as i did in trb. [15:00]
asciilifeform: so answ to trinque's q is yes [15:01]
asciilifeform: !!up fromloper [15:04]
deedbot: fromloper voiced for 30 minutes. [15:04]
trinque: then we are closer than it appeared in the long thread. I proposed being able to name arbitrary required antecedents in a vpatch's header, and this appears equivalent in effect to copying the file in whole. [15:04]
fromloper: hello [15:04]
fromloper: asciilifeform: someone uploaded "I-Machine Architecture Specification" to Bitsavers three days ago, I thought you might find it interesting: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/symbolics/I_Machine/I-Machine%20Architecture%20Specification.pdf [15:04]
fromloper: it's more complete than the previously published documents on the Ivory [15:04]
asciilifeform: fromloper: pretty sure i've seen this before [15:05]
fromloper: there were older versions of three chapters from this documents on Bitsavers, but not the whole thing [15:05]
apeloyee: point is, the situation when you can replace one of the patches with figurative "format c:" and 'v' will be none the wiser as long as the file is not touched by later patches is insane [15:05]
asciilifeform: fromloper: it is not a complete arch description, you cannot write a working emulator with it ( or even make the existing snap4 not-crash ) [15:05]
asciilifeform: fromloper: i'ma look. ty [15:05]
fromloper: did you succeed in scanning the chip at Zeptobars? [15:06]
asciilifeform: apeloyee: there is not a mechanical solution to preventing someone from 'putting in format c:' proverbially [15:06]
asciilifeform: fromloper: that was phf's plan. afaik he has not, as of yet. [15:06]
asciilifeform: fromloper: i shopped around in commercial labs the best bid was in the neighbourhood of 25,000 usd. [15:07]
apeloyee: when you sign a tarball, the signature is not transferrable to anything else [15:07]
asciilifeform: fromloper: that's where it stopped. i do not have 25k usd to use on ivory die photo. [15:07]
asciilifeform: apeloyee: observe , i do not actually disagree . [15:08]
fromloper: I see, hopefully phf will have more luck with Zeptobars [15:08]
asciilifeform: apeloyee: trinqueian / mircea_popescuine vtron is arguably The Right Thing. my observation is that it may be a 50kg sword. [15:08]
asciilifeform: fromloper: i only have two 'ivory' chips, and ideally would like to leave one intact , for active test . iirc phf also has 2 to use. [15:09]
asciilifeform: so i'ma save mine for proper commercial lab. but that means potentially forever. maybe whoever takes it off my corpse, can get it photo'd. [15:10]
apeloyee: "may be a 50kg sword" << doesn't seem to be. can be retrofitted into an existing design. as i said above "there needs to be a tree hash in the _leaf_ patch. and it MUST match the resulting tree" [15:10]
asciilifeform: retrofitted yes [15:11]
asciilifeform: but i am speaking of ~use~. [15:11]
fromloper: asciilifeform: if I remember, you wanted to hook this intact chip to some emulation of Ivory's life support [15:11]
asciilifeform: fromloper: correct [15:11]
asciilifeform: fromloper: currently however i do not even know where the power supply pins are, much less bus addressing, i/o, clock, etc [15:11]
asciilifeform: or the necessary timings. [15:11]
asciilifeform: ( or what it expects to find on the bus, or almost anything else ) [15:11]
asciilifeform: i do not have, nor ever had, a working 'ivory' of any description. [15:12]
fromloper: VLM is not very informative for this purpose, unfortunately [15:12]
asciilifeform: fromloper: correct. almost totally useless. [15:13]
apeloyee: I proposed being able to name arbitrary required antecedents << also probably needs a mechanism to declare "there are no other files in the tree" [15:13]
asciilifeform: apeloyee: look at the trb tree, and picture what the mass of the patches would have been, if this requirement had been in effect when i made it. [15:14]
asciilifeform: ( and yes mircea_popescu's answer was 'shuddup and suck it' . which is very easily said when you ain't the one sucking it ) [15:14]
asciilifeform: fromloper: i'll confirm, this is a larger and moar detailed document than old one. [15:16]
apeloyee: a hash of the entire tree doesn't take much [15:16]
fromloper: at the very least, the description of the instruction set is much more complete, all the opcodes are listed and no blanks at all [15:17]
fromloper: there is a whole section on the virtual memory [15:17]
asciilifeform: neat [15:18]
fromloper: though it's still an early version of the architecture, revision 0 if I understand correctly [15:19]
fromloper: the last one is rev 5 [15:19]
fromloper: which was designed for VLM exclusively [15:19]
fromloper: asciilifeform: I have noticed that some of the former Symbolics employees are fairly active on Twitter, like https://twitter.com/swmckay (one of the developers of VLM) and https://twitter.com/KalmanReti , do you think it is possible to pry any information out of them? [15:24]
apeloyee: !#s whisperers [15:25]
a111: 18 results for "whisperers", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=whisperers [15:25]
asciilifeform: fromloper: possibly. my track record for prying information out of bolixologists is ~0 so far, however. [15:26]
asciilifeform: somehow we cannot find common language, i have nfi. [15:26]
asciilifeform: fromloper: looking at the linked doc, it is indeed very useful, now we have maybe 80% of the necessary info, instead of ~50%. [15:28]
fromloper: asciilifeform: very good, I'm glad I brought it to your attention [15:29]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771995 << in these pages however all i see is claptrap re 'racism of trump', 0 about lispm [15:29]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 20:24 fromloper: asciilifeform: I have noticed that some of the former Symbolics employees are fairly active on Twitter, like https://twitter.com/swmckay (one of the developers of VLM) and https://twitter.com/KalmanReti , do you think it is possible to pry any information out of them? [15:29]
trinque: pretty common to end up LARPing in retirement, even if one lived as a man, unfortunately [15:30]
asciilifeform: the unfortunate bit is that reti et al seem intent to take their seekritz to their graves, because they are 'law-abiding' and are still honouring their nda to the dead hand of the dead man [15:30]
asciilifeform: trinque: aha [15:30]
fromloper: yeah, somehow a lot of potentially interesting people on social media end up mostly posting this kind of crap [15:32]
asciilifeform: think, somebody, somewhere, has the source code to ns. and the ns netlist , with comments, to the ivory. [15:32]
asciilifeform: he ain't sharing. [15:32]
asciilifeform: somebody shares ? i'll read, even if he also goes on re 'racism' [15:32]
asciilifeform: but somehow never happens. [15:32]
asciilifeform: somebody , maybe same old man, has a bookcase full of typewritten design apocrypha, memoes, etc. from ivory group. he ain't sharing either. [15:33]
asciilifeform: out of fear of usg ? or from vanity ( he thinks it can be sold for millions ? to whom ? ) he is burning his life's work. i have nfi why. [15:34]
asciilifeform: !!up fromloper [15:34]
deedbot: fromloper voiced for 30 minutes. [15:34]
fromloper: this document refers to Dave Moon's files several times I've tried to find any public presence of Moon on the net, maybe a mail address - found nothing [15:34]
asciilifeform: funnily enuff a Dave Moon ran for election to some city dogcatcher post , not far from where i live. but on examination seems to be different d00d. [15:35]
asciilifeform: the original may well be dead [15:35]
asciilifeform: weinreb died a few yrs ago [15:35]
fromloper: Moon had an interview with Azul Systems' people in 2008 [15:35]
fromloper: that's the last of him I found [15:36]
fromloper: https://blog.h2o.ai/2008/11/a-brief-conversation-with-david-moon/ [15:36]
asciilifeform: i recall this [15:37]
asciilifeform: and i haven't seen him anywhere since, either [15:37]
asciilifeform: http://users.rcn.com/david-moon/MMD/HTML/index.html << apparently was at least alive in 2016 [15:40]
asciilifeform: ( and same moon, e.g. http://users.rcn.com/david-moon/PLOT3/ ) [15:40]
asciilifeform: 'Comments and criticisms to dave underscore moon atsign alum dot mit dot edu. ' << anybody tried ? [15:40]
asciilifeform: and now that we're on subj , where is, e.g., r. d. greenblatt ? [15:41]
asciilifeform: tom knight ? [15:41]
fromloper: so there is at least one possible address, gotta try it [15:43]
fromloper: Tom Knight is working with biologists [15:43]
asciilifeform: that was last i knew aha [15:44]
asciilifeform: 0 to do with lispm, for ~3 decades [15:44]
asciilifeform: but apparently alive. [15:44]
fromloper: Richard Greenblatt helped with this in 2006 https://projects.csail.mit.edu/films/aifilms/AIFilms.html [15:45]
asciilifeform: and yes the ones still alive, all work ~somewhere~, symbolics did not make anybody aside from the yacht brahmins rich [15:45]
asciilifeform: ( in usa for some reason it is traditional for ceo to be paid mega-bonus even when the company tanks ) [15:46]
fromloper: afaik Symbolics was changing CEOs like gloves [15:46]
asciilifeform: it was [15:46]
asciilifeform: whole buncha upper crust parasites gotta be buttered, apparently. [15:46]
asciilifeform: to be fair the company was not really a honest commercial co, moar like one of those unofficial usg research institutes, they proliferated under reagan and died with him [15:47]
asciilifeform: thinkingmachines co was another such. died same way. [15:48]
asciilifeform: there is an entire graveyard of these it simply so happens that i am only interested in the lispm-flavoured ones [15:48]
asciilifeform: ( where i know for a fact that they Had Something ) [15:48]
asciilifeform: for all i know, the one and only path to e.g. a room-temperature supercon, was found at one of the reagan scamola firms, and died with it, also. i simply do not know about it. [15:49]
fromloper: I also wanted to ask, did you figure out how to launch NS in VLM? I'm getting some Xlib error when I try to [15:51]
asciilifeform: nope. [15:51]
asciilifeform: i suspect that the copy on the Official genera disk, never worked. [15:51]
asciilifeform: but i never tried it under alpha, gotta try. [15:52]
asciilifeform: and iirc phf has a working ivory -- worth trying there also [15:52]
fromloper: I wonder if it's going to ask for a license key like Macsyma on the same disk does [15:52]
asciilifeform: nfi [15:53]
asciilifeform: there is, theoretically, a working disasm [15:53]
asciilifeform: fromloper: in re ivoryology, another unknown is the fep. virtually nothing is publicly known about the fep. [15:57]
asciilifeform: ( for n00bz to the subj -- fep was an entire comp, mc68k, embedded inside bolix lispm, handled i/o and certain aspects of eggogology ) [15:58]
fromloper: Ivory still has mc68k? [15:58]
fromloper: in its FEP [15:58]
asciilifeform: afaik the standalone ones, did [15:58]
asciilifeform: the 'macivory' did not, used a proggy running on the mac. [15:59]
asciilifeform: ( a 68k mac.. ) [15:59]
fromloper: is VLM's life support built out of that proggy? [15:59]
asciilifeform: nominally. [15:59]
fromloper: http://archive.is/zw03T << Rainer Joswig speaks of some secret team maintaining the emulator, I wonder if he means http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-21#1701489 [16:01]
a111: Logged on 2017-08-21 14:43 phf: i spent (mostly another whisperer and myself did) on getting vlm stable, and i'm unconvinced that some of the issues we encountered were purely "buggy vlm". there is, for example, a crash in floating point instruction that happens when you load document examiner on stock piratebay opengenera. i have no explanation for it still, because vlm code ~seems to do the right thing~. there are other similar instances [16:01]
asciilifeform: fromloper: i actually do not know anything re who, if anyone, maintains. aside from phf's admission to having a private fork, linked above. [16:02]
asciilifeform: ( last i knew, phf did not publish his changes ) [16:02]
asciilifeform: i do not know why not. [16:02]
asciilifeform: this is a q that only he can answer, supposing he feels like answering. [16:03]
fromloper: well, he doesn't for some reason [16:03]
asciilifeform: re fp, i'll observe that bolix used a weitek fp unit [16:03]
asciilifeform: similar in fact to the one in everybody's old 486 [16:03]
asciilifeform: and that if emulator's does not behave exactly same -- it will lead to barf, yes [16:03]
asciilifeform: and who even knows if weitek is fully documented somewhere. [16:04]
asciilifeform: ( for all i know, bolix relied on some undocumented behaviour of it. ) [16:04]
asciilifeform: !!up fromloper [16:04]
deedbot: fromloper voiced for 30 minutes. [16:04]
asciilifeform: fromloper: currently i suspect that many, possibly majority, of serious bolix collectors, ~do not want~ there to be an accurate emulator. [16:17]
fromloper: I've read the whisperers discussion here, seems to be plausible [16:17]
asciilifeform: i -- want. and this is why by and large they do not talk to me. they know about my www, they knew where to find me. they also know that i will publicly and immediately leak any bolixologial document that i am given. and want to make emulator. and for this, i suspect, they do not talk to me. [16:17]
asciilifeform: this is a hypothesis. so far my best one. [16:18]
asciilifeform: some people spent $10k's on their collections of bolixiana. and imagine that these will become worthless if an accurate fpgalogical emulator appears. and for all i know , this is true. i simply don't care. [16:19]
asciilifeform: the ones who hoard secrets because they imagine that they have a ticket to being part of some future commercial revival of bolix, however -- those are idiots. [16:20]
asciilifeform: there will be no second coming of commercial bolix. [16:20]
fromloper: I'm curious what John C. Mallery intends to do with his property, other than collect support cheques [16:21]
asciilifeform: i asked this q here years ago, and to this day have no answer of any kind. [16:21]
asciilifeform: i suspect that there is no plan, the nsa cheques pay for his yachts and that's it. [16:21]
asciilifeform: and when he dies they will pay for his sons' yachts. etc [16:22]
fromloper: Kalman Reti said 4 years ago: "The problem is that the Symbolics IP is now owned by John Mallery he has stated he has plans for making it available but so far (several years) has not yet done so." [16:22]
asciilifeform: right, why would he. why give away yacht. [16:23]
diana_coman: !!rate Covale` 1 euloran noob found at least some of his way around [16:23]
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/qC1SN/?raw=true [16:23]
diana_coman: !!v 7AC227FA1D46917538127FAB0D4C5C45FF8064838BE08A92A589F00E4374C08F [16:23]
deedbot: diana_coman rated Covale` 1 << euloran noob found at least some of his way around [16:23]
Covale`: diana_coman ty [16:24]
asciilifeform: fromloper: if he gave it out, potentially someone else could bid on the support contract ( under american law, all contracts are theoretically publicly biddable . lockheed et al simply contrive to set up situation where no one else ~can~ perform a given contract ) [16:24]
asciilifeform: * all gov contracts [16:24]
fromloper: asciilifeform: maybe he'll give up if something happens to DKS and Kalman Reti so he'll be out of people capable to do the job, both of them are rather old [16:26]
asciilifeform: fromloper: i suspect not. because the 'support' is really ceremonial [16:26]
asciilifeform: neither dks nor reti are really needed, to provide this 'support'. [16:26]
asciilifeform: otherwise mallery would have long ago hired a 'spare' or two, and afaik he never has. [16:27]
asciilifeform: the racket is not , as far as i can tell, intended to outlive the current participants. [16:27]
asciilifeform: ( and if it is, it is by playing usg piano correctly, rather than by training replacement retis ) [16:28]
* asciilifeform bbl [16:31]
trinque: if so, how did folks this corrupt build anything worth having? [16:33]
asciilifeform: !!up fromloper [16:35]
deedbot: fromloper voiced for 30 minutes. [16:35]
asciilifeform: trinque: by being 40 yrs younger, lol [16:35]
fromloper: Mallery didn't do much for Symbolics before he bought it, outside of supplying it with CL-HTTP [16:35]
asciilifeform: cl-http was notorious for its fuckyou-license [16:36]
asciilifeform: but i'll admit that i know very, very little about mallery ( almost nothing is publicly known about him, he is an academic but not many publications in his name ) [16:36]
asciilifeform: what little clue there is, points to his having been an nsa asset since youth. [16:37]
asciilifeform: trinque: see also http://btcbase.org/log/2014-03-21#571209 oldie [16:38]
a111: Logged on 2014-03-21 04:58 mircea_popescu: understand that the most economic way to run the economy - now as during 1614 - is to just turn off all machinery, lock all warehouses and bury the key [16:38]
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-13#1770368 <- mod6 did you publish this anywhere? it seems I might even have another test-case for it.. (version 99994 dies on it complaining that .vpatch is invalid) [16:38]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-13 21:52 mod6: Lords and Ladies of The Most Serene Republic, I have created a blog post outlining the behavior changes in 99993. Please take a look and consider these changes. Let me know if you have any comments or questions! Thanks in advance. http://www.mod6.net/2018/99993/99993-changes.html [16:38]
fromloper: Mallery's project at MIT: http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/home-page.html [16:39]
asciilifeform: 'This project ran from October 1, 1993 to October 1, 1997.' [16:39]
asciilifeform: what he is being paid for TODAY, is not known afaik. [16:39]
fromloper: he is talking at "cyber security" conferences [16:39]
fromloper: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwRg5UUdlK4 [16:40]
asciilifeform: d00d dun look so old. expect another 30-40 yrs of the dog sitting in the manger. [16:40]
asciilifeform: 'Cyber space is an increasingly risky discourse and therefore will inevitably be securitised.' << exactly what i said: usg stuffed shirt. [16:41]
asciilifeform: observe sponsor 'raytheon'. [16:41]
fromloper: he's also on twitter, might nag him about it for laughs https://twitter.com/jcmallery_cyber [16:41]
asciilifeform: why not also nag the statueofliberty, or washington monument. [16:42]
asciilifeform: 'John Mallery @jcmallery_cyber 25 Dec 2017 Declinism is a psyop of adversaries...it was spread before during the Vietnam war.' << ahahahaha gold [16:42]
asciilifeform: cheap nsa whore. [16:44]
mod6: diana_coman: you mean the patch for 99993? yeah, i pasted it in here.... lemme look for it quick. [16:45]
asciilifeform: hey fromloper , consider registering with deedbot ? [16:45]
asciilifeform: !!help [16:45]
deedbot: http://deedbot.org/help.html [16:45]
asciilifeform: fromloper: i'll rate you [16:45]
fromloper: asciilifeform: alright, I'll do it [16:46]
asciilifeform: amazing 'морда просит кирпича' on mallery. [16:50]
asciilifeform: !#s face begs [16:50]
a111: 3 results for "face begs", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=face%20begs [16:50]
asciilifeform: i was watching like usual with no audio. if anyone thinks i misses something thereby -- plox to write in. [16:50]
diana_coman: uh oh, it seems asciilifeform's v misbehaves too: when pressing a leaf that has genesis as antecedent it presses ALSO all other descendants of genesis from what I can tell [16:51]
asciilifeform: diana_coman: it does, this was discussed. [16:51]
asciilifeform: afaik the only correct vtron currently existing , in this respect, is phf's. [16:51]
diana_coman: ah, I missed that then, I thought yours was grabbing leaf by leaf too [16:51]
asciilifeform: nope. phf afaik has the 1 and only mechanically-correct vtron. mod6 has a prototype of the 2nd. [16:52]
asciilifeform: ( i have not tried yet ) [16:52]
diana_coman: k, I'll try that as soon as mod6 finds the patch [16:52]
* asciilifeform brb [16:52]
mod6: how do i search the logs for all the lines that I have said? [16:55]
trinque: !#s from:mod6 [16:55]
a111: 24335 results for "from:mod6", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=from%3Amod6 [16:55]
diana_coman: mod6, from:mod6 ? [16:55]
diana_coman: ha, super-fast trinque ! [16:55]
* trinque blows on keyboard [16:56]
mod6: ooooh, i was doing "from: mod6" and getting very strange results. [16:57]
mod6: thx! [16:57]
mod6: diana_coman: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/GwImt/?raw=true [16:57]
diana_coman: yay, thank you mod6 ! [16:58]
mod6: np. use that to patch 99994. [16:58]
mod6: up to 99993 [16:58]
* diana_coman goes to try [16:59]
fromloper: I'm going to join as amberglint now [17:01]
trinque: !!up amberglint [17:01]
deedbot: amberglint voiced for 30 minutes. [17:01]
amberglint: !!register http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/tpxEH/?raw=true [17:01]
deedbot: A7E708351AF14BB5C8B48DA323264C245A4563B8 registered as amberglint. [17:01]
diana_coman: apparently patch worked, v reports now new version [17:04]
trinque: !!v A52E78CBF699C414F662B5E4849A1D843B5BB7B0FF282D1AD0622FEC36560AF5 [17:09]
deedbot: trinque rated amberglint 1 << new blood [17:09]
trinque: amberglint: try to self-voice in pm with deedbot now [17:09]
asciilifeform: !!rate amberglint 1 bolixologist [17:10]
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/VtIDe/?raw=true [17:10]
asciilifeform: !!v C119442E4976802D6E83E0D0AFA77098FD4FCB02AEAB5DC0DC965DCBF0A748B2 [17:11]
deedbot: asciilifeform rated amberglint 1 << bolixologist [17:11]
amberglint: it's working, thank you [17:12]
asciilifeform: welcome, amberglint . [17:12]
asciilifeform: amberglint: want to say a bit re where you came from, how you found asciilifeform's www, etc ? [17:13]
asciilifeform: ( or found #t first ? or other ? ) [17:13]
* shinohai wonders if he should rate ben_vulpes as "bollocksologist" due to his recent trap encounters ..... [17:13]
asciilifeform: lol [17:14]
amberglint: asciilifeform: I can't remember how I found your www, I'm reading it since 2012 or so I found trilema.com from one of your articles [17:15]
amberglint: I'm a software engineer, live in Russia [17:16]
asciilifeform: neato. [17:21]
amberglint: I was reading the logs for a while, thought about joining you earlier but felt a bit intimidated to be honest [17:21]
asciilifeform: amberglint: i assume you already know about the log ( btcbase.org/log & elsewhere ) then. [17:21]
amberglint: btcbase.org is the logotron of my choice [17:22]
asciilifeform: it was made by phf , address all complaints to him!1! [17:23]
amberglint: haven't had any issues with it, it's very handy [17:23]
asciilifeform: it is. [17:23]
asciilifeform: phf also from ru and iirc so is apeloyee asciilifeform from old su but marooned in usa mircea_popescu speaks (more than he is willing to admit, lol) ru possibly other folx, tuned in but still lurking, also. [17:25]
amberglint: yeah, I caught almost everyone ru-speaking in the logs though I didn't know about apeloyee [17:27]
asciilifeform: he's a very clever maths d00d. logs in every other week or so, nitpicks re fine points of ffa. [17:27]
asciilifeform: since iirc july of '17 or so. [17:27]
asciilifeform: !!born apeloyee [17:28]
asciilifeform: !#born apeloyee [17:28]
a111: 2017-09-13 <apeloyee> would O(N^2) modular multiplication be too slow? [17:28]
a111: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-13#1713496 [17:28]
asciilifeform: sept. apparently. [17:28]
asciilifeform: but iirc he existed as a 'fromloper' prev. [17:28]
asciilifeform: !#s from:fromloper ffa [17:29]
a111: 0 results for "from:fromloper ffa", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=from%3Afromloper%20ffa [17:29]
asciilifeform: hm. [17:29]
amberglint: plenty of math-educated people here [17:29]
asciilifeform: (possibly he had other temp name, i cannot now recall.) [17:29]
asciilifeform: aha. mircea_popescu also at one time was a maths man. [17:29]
asciilifeform: and diana_coman , and possibly others. [17:30]
asciilifeform: and i know of at least 1 still-lurking d00d, who was. and who knows who else. [17:31]
amberglint: asciilifeform: have you read "Digital Design and Computer Architecture" by D. and S. Harris? I'm using it (in ru print translation) as my hardware handbook and I'm curious if you have any opinion on it [17:39]
asciilifeform: i have an old 'for india' eng edition here. [17:40]
asciilifeform: unremarkable schoolbook slightly better imho than hennessey's [17:40]
asciilifeform: i do not like vhdl and do not see the point of 'systemverilog' (vs classical) but these are my personal prefs [17:41]
amberglint: btw, one of Ivory and NS designers, Neil Weste, wrote his own schoolbook: http://pages.hmc.edu/harris/cmosvlsi/4e/index.html [17:45]
amberglint: with the same Harris [17:46]
asciilifeform: neato. [17:47]
asciilifeform: amberglint: do you have it ? anything unusual, ivoryistic inside it ? [17:47]
asciilifeform: the demo chapter seems to have a very, very detailed discussion of machine arithmetic. [17:48]
asciilifeform: with quite recent lit cited. [17:48]
amberglint: asciilifeform: I have a pdf somewhere, a quick look didn't notice anything Ivory-specific [17:48]
amberglint: it should be on gen.lib.rus.ec [17:49]
asciilifeform: i have a similar item , http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-16#1657241 , it proved to be of very, very limited help for ffa , the constraint of the pc arch limits the use of fancy adders etc [17:53]
a111: Logged on 2017-05-16 22:10 asciilifeform: unrelatedly, 'finite precision number systems and arithmetic' (kornerup & matula, cambridge press) is mega-b00k, the only one i've found on subj that is NOT a mere plagiarism of knuth, has useful algos for e.g. carry-free ops, hardwarizations [17:53]
asciilifeform: ultimately i ended up using nothing at all from it. [17:53]
asciilifeform: but if i were designing asic -- yes, would use. [17:54]
asciilifeform: and weste's , too. it seems to contain many usable goodies for asicist. [17:55]
asciilifeform: unfortunately i do not have any way to make asic. as for fpga, none exist of the necessary size. ( see e.g. http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1764242 ) [17:56]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 20:06 asciilifeform: in other 'news', it is apparently impossible to fit even ONE 4096-bit adder into an ice40-8k ( the largest in the series ) [17:56]
amberglint: asciilifeform: do you know what this language is? http://users.rcn.com/david-moon/MMD/MMD.lunar looks like Moon's own invention [18:31]
asciilifeform: amberglint: PLOT ( http://users.rcn.com/david-moon/PLOT/ , http://users.rcn.com/david-moon/PLOT3/ . ) [18:33]
asciilifeform: seemed to me, to be an infix lisp, sorta like 'dylan' [18:33]
asciilifeform: ( why he did this ? i do not know ) [18:33]
amberglint: he renamed it to Lunar, apparently [18:33]
amberglint: no one else seems to know or care about it, judging by google's output [18:33]
asciilifeform: http://users.rcn.com/david-moon/PLOT3/page-1.html << see also. [18:34]
asciilifeform: i read the linked manual in '08 and will admit that i did not find it very interesting. it is the same kind of dead end as dylan. [18:34]
asciilifeform: ( and if anyone began to use it, would prolly end as same kind of catastrophe as e.g. ruby . ) [18:34]
deedbot: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2146 << Loper OS - Rodenticide with the Seiko DPU414 Tape Printer. [21:02]
mircea_popescu: you know ftr trb node state of blockpool has improved tremendously. [23:11]
* asciilifeform noticed [23:12]
mircea_popescu: cool deal. [23:12]
asciilifeform: and ohai mircea_popescu ! [23:12]
asciilifeform: saw any crocodiles ? [23:12]
mircea_popescu: actually... just macaws. lots and lots and lots of macaws. [23:13]
asciilifeform: neato. [23:16]
danielpbarron: !!rate TomServo 1 fg customer [23:19]
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/7LV3i/?raw=true [23:19]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771636 << i have nfi what a binace is and i see no problem with random numbers fiatists assign to bitcoin fluctuating ~randomly. [23:25]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 11:06 Techman: mircea_popescu: what isy our take on bitcoin dropping below 10K (at least on binance) [23:25]
mircea_popescu: o check it out asciilifeform "cardano" the coin is up 25%!!1 [23:26]
mircea_popescu: "WORTH ALMOST TWO BILLION"!!11 [23:27]
asciilifeform: lol!! [23:27]
asciilifeform: how is mpexcoin doing tho. [23:27]
asciilifeform: and bbeterium. [23:27]
mircea_popescu: https://github.com/input-output-hk/cardano-sl/ << for ulterior lulz [23:27]
asciilifeform: haskell no less [23:28]
mircea_popescu: "Cardano is a decentralised public blockchain and cryptocurrency project and is fully open source. Cardano is developing a smart contract platform which seeks to deliver more advanced features than any protocol previously developed. It is the first blockchain platform to evolve out of a scientific philosophy and a research-first driven approach. Thedevelopment team consists of a large global collective of expert engineers and [23:28]
mircea_popescu: researchers." [23:28]
asciilifeform: https://cardanofoundation.org also, didjaknow! [23:29]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771642 << i don't see a problem with it necessarily, but it's not clear what may hide under rock #2. try and see i guess ? [23:29]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 13:09 esthlos: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-16#1771055 << My thought was to scrap the current client in favor of a customized one, with eucrypt protocol as the backbone. Is this 1. not what you want, or 2. a bad idea? [23:29]
asciilifeform: 'The registered office of Cardano Foundation is: Cardano Stiftung, Gubelstrasse 11, 6300 Zug, Switzerland.' classy. [23:30]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform gotta have a foundation like tits gotta have a boar. [23:30]
asciilifeform: verily. [23:30]
mircea_popescu: crypto ag is zug-erstrasse, 6312 gubel, swizerland. [23:36]
mircea_popescu: geddit ? [23:36]
asciilifeform: lol! [23:36]
asciilifeform: holyfuq it ACTUALLY is.. [23:37]
asciilifeform: per https://www.crypto.ch/en/contact [23:37]
asciilifeform: pretty great. [23:37]
mircea_popescu: :) [23:37]
asciilifeform: a+++ trololol [23:37]
mircea_popescu: they just play trivial pursuit see. [23:38]
mircea_popescu: or what's the one with the mixing. [23:38]
mircea_popescu: o right. SYMMETRICAL CIPHER. [23:38]
asciilifeform: to think, somebody sat, sewed this. [23:40]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771644 << nah not at all. just proposed what might've been an easy entry point. you dun like it you dun have to. [23:41]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 13:15 esthlos: Rereading, seems clear that you want eulora's graphics engine. [23:41]
asciilifeform: previously i had it filed under perlisms. [23:41]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it rather looks like the elaboratest trollcoin so far. [23:41]
asciilifeform: afaik gold star champion , aha. [23:41]
mircea_popescu: oh, damn, remember days of GoldStar [23:42]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771704 << quite evidently that. [23:48]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 15:30 asciilifeform: has apeloyee found a specific instance where it can be made to eggog ? or is this a hypothetical 'once less clueful people start changing things' observation ? [23:48]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771717 << this is a great win, i'm glad he stuck with it. [23:56]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 15:33 asciilifeform: really all routines oughta behave consistently in re input-overwrite. [23:56]
mircea_popescu: saying "well i can't protect car from usage of idiots" is one thing, but having the gas and break pedals not ever interchange is the other thing. [23:56]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771729 << only sorta. [23:58]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 15:39 apeloyee: does gnat provide a facility to check aliasing at runtime? [23:58]
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