The irc world is a big but very flat place.

So I gave an eye to a bunch of Freenode channels over the past day, maybe a dozen or two. All the #bitcoin-* stuff is dead, #startups is the home economics lol of all time, ##economics is deader than disco, the only thing worth even a passing mention is :

**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Oct 25 11:26:21 2012

* Now talking on #lesswrong
* Topic for #lesswrong is: "The peril of arguing with you is forgetting to argue with myself. Don’t make me convince you: I don’t want to believe that much." | August links: http://gwern.net/newsletter/2014/08 | RIP Hal Finney http://www.economist.com/news/obituary/21615469-harold-finney-futurist-and-cypherpunk-died-august-28th-aged-58-hal-finney | #lw-prog #lw-support #lw-bitcoin | no public logs
* Topic for #lesswrong set by gwern!~gwern@wikipedia/Gwern at Mon Sep 8 04:19:51 2014

mircea_popescu Hello #lesswrong. Is there a channel log published anywhere ?
Lynear See the last part of the topic

mircea_popescu O I missed that. Ty.
ahel mircea_popescu: I usually read backlogs then I stooped. Most of the time, they don't make any sense.

mircea_popescu The problem is just, I join and want to eval a channel. What can I do now ? Either wait or leave.
rsaarelm_ A lot of irc regulars have shell accounts where they can leave an irc client running for days. So what I'd do is I join a channel, leave the client running, then check the log on the next day.
* oru_ raises hand

mircea_popescu I guess, yeah.
oru_ Speaking of which
* oru_ is now known as oru

mircea_popescu Why no logs anyway ? No tech capability ? Some philosophical counter ?
oru Politeness?

mircea_popescu The #b-a log proved itself very useful after its introduction. if nothing else one can redirect noobs to old conversation withut having to rehash them, which gives everyone an incentive to argue well.
pookie_ title: #bitcoin-assets log
rsaarelm_ mircea_popescu: Avoiding drama.

mircea_popescu Hm I guess there is that.
rsaarelm_ Basically we have the more permanent conversations over at the lesswrong.com site, and this is more of a hangaround room where whoever is around at the time is talking about whatever is interesting them. And the no-logs thing is related to the more-of-a-social-hangout nature of the place.
ahel Yeah there are less standard topics than you would assume from other channels.

mircea_popescu I see.ⁱ
rsaarelm It's a bit like bar conversations after work and how people don't want other people to tape record everything they say and air them around the water cooler at the office the next day.
ahel In my head is more near to /b than to #ubuntu -porn +bayes

mircea_popescu But people do that anwyay. The way I see public logs is leveling the field, rather than give some the upper hand.
rsaarelm Yeah, they might, but at least we've made it explicit it will be frowned upon.ⁱⁱ
mircea_popescu I guess if that works. Afaik /b/ is actually logged and publicly accessible.
rsaarelm Yeah, the public logs thing makes sense for most freenode channels which are the primary forums of the relevant projects, but like I said, we already have the primary forum over at the website.ⁱⁱⁱ
gwern Hah, my MMPI book arrived, and just as the subtitle says, it is indeed data - about 140 pages of tables! (all printed in small monospace font... I'll have to scan it at pretty high resolution, I guess, or the ocr will be terrible)
setnick /b/ is being logged? what a waste of electricity.

mircea_popescu Marginally better than Bitcoin mining.
ahel Not regarding logs, regarding random data like what gwern just posted.
setnick mircea_popescu: i have no experience with bitcoin mining and i don't even plan to

mircea_popescu Still, the champion at burning electricity.^iv

mircea_popescu http://lesswrong.com/lw/kxy/simulate_and_defer_to_more_rational_selves/ << "I sometimes let imaginary versions of myself make decisions for me."
pookie_ title: Simulate and Defer To More Rational Selves - Less Wrong

mircea_popescu How about letting actual better people do the same then ? Find someone who's a version of yourself better than all the versions of yourself that are actually yourself, and let them make the decisions. Ie, become a slave.^v

[snipped long boring discussion about scanning library books with whatever handheld device]

mircea_popescu Anything with meatspace involvement is too expensive to do. Prolly cheaper to get the Russian translation and learn Russian.
ahel Ahah do you know a good way to learn russian?

mircea_popescu Generally the way to learn new languages is a new girlfriend. I should know, I speak a bunch.
* ahel claps

mircea_popescu But anyway, Russian is particularly worth it, not just because mmmm, Nicole Kidman in Birthday Girl^vi, but pricipally because they have stolen every fucking book in the world and translated it, and circulate the stuff freely. It's a one time universal library card.
ahel Yeah that sounds convincing!
setnick Good advice. Basically, having someone who is a native speaker or good knowledge is basically the shortcut to learning a language.

mircea_popescu Especially if in the same dwelling (ie accessible 24/7) and especially if you don't get to only interact with the language when "mentally prepared". Which often and for many people means "blocked".
setnick Just be careful if it's someone of the opposite gender, they might think you're making a move.

mircea_popescu The IDEA is for it to be borne out of intimacy. Hence girlfriend.
epitron Lol... there's easier ways to get books than learning Russian. See: library card.
setnick Yeah but I'm pretty sure if you just went to someone and said "hey, I'm learning X and you're a native speaker, care to help me?" they could genuinely feel a bit scared.

mircea_popescu Depends where.^vii Unless you're trying to learn English in the US, it'll probably work fine.
epitron Depends how.
epitron RAWR TEACH ME LANGUAGE BOOGA BOOGA
epitron ^- scary
setnick Learning English in the US seems counterproductive. There's way too many people who speak broken English so it's easier to settle for some sort of common denominator and that's it for your vocabulary. Anyway, your idea is a pretty good one especially since a lot of Russian girls are pretty hot.

mircea_popescu Sure. Take a sabattical, go to Odessa, come back a year later with a hot new gf and fluency in a new language.
setnick There's plenty of Russians where I live, in fact many people in my neighborhood are ex-soviets to a degree.

mircea_popescu Immersion counts.
setnick My whole family is basically ex-soviet too but we're not russian

mircea_popescu I'm originally from Romania. If the name didn't give it away.
setnick So it's common practive in Romania to snatch foreign girls in the guise of learning a new language?

mircea_popescu I think it's a common practice the world over, at least as far as people who get good at foreign languages go.
setnick Heh. Maybe so.

mircea_popescu Some places are naturally bi-multilingual. Like say NW romania, or all the former Yugoslavia. How do you think that happened ? Foreign language classes for 20 mn people ?

setnick Not here at least. My family is more conservative. It's the whole group though, not only my family.
mircea_popescu Here is an undefined antecedent :)
setnick Do you mean the aforementioned group? Georgian Jews are considerably conservative but that's slowly changing.

mircea_popescu Ah. I thought they mostly spoke russian as a 2nd language.
setnick That's true, my dad speaks Russian. My mom's side doesn't though.

mircea_popescu Not like conservative is a bad thing. It's like being a vegetarian. Sure, you miss out on some stuff, but if the alternative is libtard cancer... by all means. Conservative.
setnick I do wonder how much upringing matters in becoming a rationalist.

mircea_popescu I imagine significantly.
namespace What sort of libtard cancer?

mircea_popescu The sort where "scientific consensus" becomes "a bunch of people on govt dole supporting the policies govt wants". As a random example
setnick Also, I have difficulty considering vegeterians as rationalist, because if they really cared about the animals they would rationally work on artificial meat. They simple end up in some status-quo of "I won't eat the animals, but I won't work towards them having it any better".

mircea_popescu It was more of a metaphor than anything. I think they're silly too, but then again I live in Argentina. They take your passport away here if you don't eat meat.
setnick It's not vegeterians though - it's everyone who does that. I often hear about group xyz that goes against (or for) zyx for whatever reason and wonder what the hell is going on there. This is why politics is best avoided.^viii Everyone aka, people who take a stance but only go so far in voicing themselves, which in the end means nothing at all.

mircea_popescu Often the reason is commercial. Take the Atkins diet. Long dead fad on its own merits, but it's so damned friendly to the shitty restaurant. So TGI Fridays and w/e hellholes promote it still, so it exists still.^ix
namespace Wait do they really take your passport?
Khoth Yeah, you have to eat a still-beating cow heart in an official test every five years.

mircea_popescu Yup. Khoth has it.
Madplatypus Setnick, by your definition, nobody is even remotly rationalist.

mircea_popescu Well, god, actually, would be. Makes his rationalism a strange religion. Just with a redefined sin.
setnick Madplatypus: Why do you think so?
Madplatypus Because I've never encountered anybody who ran their morals to full conclusion. Especially Utilitarians. Say, you believe death is wrong, but you could easily prevent death with even minor finicial resources via donation, but you don't sell the things you own and donate them.

mircea_popescu Anyone making death wrong is setting themselves up for nonsense. All natural phenomena have to remain morally neutral.
mjr ...
Madplatypus By that definition, everything is morally neutral. Which is really, really stupid. I mean, we're a natural phenomena. Also, plenty of death is caused in "unnatural" ways.
setnick Well, that's extremism.

mircea_popescu No, not necessarily. You can for instance discern natural phenomena from agency, like say the legal systems' been trying to do for 5y years or so.
Madplatypus Also, plenty of death is caused in "unnatural" ways.

mircea_popescu Causation can be made wrong. The death, no.
Madplatypus Setnick, so? Maybe making meat seems like extremism to them, or *maybe* it's a personal choice on their part and they're not interested in foisting their morality on others - not true for all of them, of course. But making blanket statements like,"I can't consider vegetarians rationalist" assumes all kinds of things that you should not.
mjr So if I kill you, that's bad. If I let Madplatypus here kill you, what's that, questionable? But if I let nature kill you, that's neutral. Say nature is killing you by drowning, should I not interfere?
setnick Well I don't consider most people rational for a start.
Madplatypus Then don't call vegetarians out inparticular.
setnick You're right. I take that back.
Namegduf Is it me, or did this channel use to be better than inane arguments over what the word "rational" meant?
Madplatypus Just, you, Namegduf
setnick This is why politics is best avoided.
mjr (incidentally, eg. PETA is supporting artifical/in vitro meat dev, though probably not as much as the could)

mircea_popescu The drowning case is open. But, me dying is fine, all men die. You killing me is not fine, but not because I ended up dead. Because you shouldn't have involved yourself. From there on it proceeds.
mjr I'll be sure to remember not to involve myself as Madplatypus is slowly strangling you to death.^x

mircea_popescu Not involving yourself in that case may or may not be fine, depending on how you build the moral.
Madplatypus Is the reverse also true? If he shouldn't involve himself to cause your death, should he not involve himself to stop your death? I don't strangle people. Too slow.

mircea_popescu I'm just saying what the api hooks are, not how you shouldwrite your code. You can write any moral you want, just don't imagine you can call functions that don't exist.
setnick How did we get from vegeterians to strangling people again?
Namegduf So the morality of an act depends on how you rationalise it?

mircea_popescu Exactly. There's no ought in nature. All a wholy made and so wholly owned effect of men talking.
Madplatypus But there's not ought to us, as well. We're a natural product.
Namegduf So you define an act as moral if it derives from some internally consistent model, regardless of what that model is, and not moral if it is inconsistent, regardless of what it is.

mircea_popescu Indeed. So whatever you can convince yourself enough to enforce is just as good. The competition of morals is on the realm of persuasion, nothing else. Like any political platform.^xi
Madplatypus But we can convince ourselves to enforce things on nature.

mircea_popescu So you convince yourself to believe.
Madplatypus So if that's all morality is, fine, but it can certainly be applied to nature.

mircea_popescu Only if you want to think so. Hm, who's Eliezer Yudkowsky ?
setnick Morality isn't a good subject either.
Namegduf I don't see why I would want there to be more moral people in the world by this definition of morality.

mircea_popescu Perhaps because you persuaded yourself to ?
Namegduf Why would I want to do that?
mircea_popescu Why would you want there to be blue food or w/e. I have no idea.^xii
Madplatypus It certainly isn't a terrible useful definition.

mircea_popescu Well, it's not designed for the purpose of utility, it's designed for the purpose of correctness.
Namegduf I'd want more people who acted in line with my values of things like "not killing people". Rather than people who acted in line with any consistent model, regardless of how well it agreed with mine on the topics of, say, killing people.

mircea_popescu Namegduf in general fixed ideas favour the creation of circle jerks. This is a morally neutral thing. Some CJs are "good" in your eyes. Some good in anothers', and so ...
Namegduf Oh no, circle jerks, truly a serious concern. The biggest problem on the damned planet right there.
setnick Namegduf: Indeed.

mircea_popescu Society in any implementation is nothing but [a circle jerk].
Namegduf Forget caring about people dying in Africa and supporting people who help them, that could cause there to be *circlejerks on the Internet*.

mircea_popescu Not really the argument at any point Namegduf.
Madplatypus You designed it for correctness in a real you *just* admitted that there is no correctness in.

mircea_popescu Don't confuse correctness, an is matter, with good or bad, an ought matter. I'm not saying it ought to be thus. I am saying it is, like it or not.
Madplatypus We've already been here.

mircea_popescu If you had a log we wouldn't have to be here again.^xiii
Madplatypus And again, I will reiterate. If you're just saying "these things are" then that's true about *all* human behavior, not just nature.

mircea_popescu Indeed.
setnick What are we even talking about?
Madplatypus Great. So drop your argument about "not applying morals to nature" because then you can't apply morals to *anything*. Which is a hiliariously bad definition of morals.^xiv

mircea_popescu "Bad" is you know... You can apply them just fine. You merely have no rational grounds to do so. There's no rational ethics, and never could be. Which is why people don't take their professed code to "extremes", as they happen to, conveniently, define those extremes.
Madplatypus A lack of rationality is hardly why people aren't extremists.......

mircea_popescu Depends if you're talking of "rationality" as setnick's cult or of rationality per se.
Madplatypus I have no idea what "setnick's cult of rationality" even is.
setnick So now you're arguing about what rationality is?
Madplatypus Not really, no.
Madplatypus It's an insult to argument to call what mircea_popescu is doing "argument".^xv

mircea_popescu I guess that's good enough, yeah. Alrighty, have a good one!

**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Sep 20 20:53:29 2014

The thing is... I could marginally be bothered to instruct heady nitwits in the intricacies of human thought on #bitcoin-assets, but I definitely couldn't be bothered to do the same for random irc channel. I am thankful that they exist though, for about the same reason I'm thankful Africa exists. If there weren't a shithole for idiots to go die of easily curable diseases, what'd the city do with all of them flocking in ?

1. For one thing, I don't give a shit.

   For the other thing, I do not see. Or, to quote,

   mircea_popescu It's incredible how broken other irc channels seem to me. "Where's the logs ?" "We don't have logs because reasons and we're primitive idiots" "So I guess i don't even need to ask about gribble or WoT then huh." So I sit there and it's like... eating grass. Savages.

   [↩]

2. Yes, but who are you ? Why should I care ?

   Herp. [↩]

3. So basically they want to direct how and where the conversation happens. Stupid, but popular. [↩]
4. And it won't stop, either. The only stable situation is where Bitcoin burns half the electricity generated on planet Earth.

   And fuck you, Africa. [↩]

5. What, you think I'm kidding ? I'm not kidding. [↩]
6. Reference gets missed, nobody notices or cares. If you're curious, this is one of my biggest filters for idiots : the people who miss references and don't give a shit can't be smart. By definition. [↩]
7. Actually here it's probably the most successful pickup line, by number of beddings. [↩]
8. "Avoiding" trouble spots is the mark of the loser. You avoid it, you lose. [↩]
9. Because the brain is a primitive tool, and as long as the noise is still there it can't be forgotten. This is why idiot US folk know who Britney Spears is and think they care what she's up to but don't know who Kant was and are stuck reinventing a very polygonal wheel every decade. [↩]
10. I guess the platypus dude is supposed to be the resident thinking star or something. For all the pretense, all groups actually do what I asked earlier about the slavery, just, a majority of English speakers are loath to admit it. [↩]
11. Which is exactly what it is. Which is why you can't "avoid politics" and be a live human in any sense. A point the classics were privy to, but who studies classics anymore. [↩]
12. Remarkable, this, isn't it ? You can now quit all your chagrin over the entirely meaningless topic of "why aren't there more good people" in an undefined, internally inconsistent definition of "good" that tries and necessarily fails to deny its political roots. [↩]
13. I could have just read the first version, loled and shrugged. Much faster than typing version #50865096. [↩]
14. Har har, someone broke our toy which we really really want to exist and we feel should exist. Because Africa! And reasons! [↩]
15. Putin doesn't understand how the world works!!!1 [↩]