Forum logs for 11 Jun 2018
March 16, 2020 | Author:
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2017/the-lordship-list-fourth-year/#comment-121713 << ahahah trinque has like the CUTEST avatar! [00:02]
ben_vulpes: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/04/arts/ren-stimpy-creator-misconduct.html << relatit [00:37]
mircea_popescu: three ?! [02:17]
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in the entomological pit : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AFritz-chip >> 'I've deleted most of the article. The information here is already presented in a more up-to-date fashion at Trusted Computing, which is the correct title for the technology. "Fritz-chip" was never more than a moniker used by critics of the technology put forth by Sen. Hollings. The article now represents this fact. Warrens 23:24, 29 April 2006 ( [10:37]
asciilifeform: UTC)' [10:37]
asciilifeform: see why not to link to pedowikia, esthlos ? [10:37]
asciilifeform: meanwhile, reddit verdict : 'Are there any less tinfoiley sites that discuss this? All of the references circle back to him.' [10:39]
asciilifeform: didjaknow. [10:39]
mod6: lol [10:41]
mod6: mornin' [10:41]
asciilifeform: heya mod6 [10:41]
mod6: typical repsonse from reich. megaunsurprise. [10:41]
trinque: https://archive.is/kun1Z/2905364d6ab37678fbb6e32c2b116435a76d878f.png << shock and outrage that this artist has a thing for teenaged girls! [10:46]
lobbesbot: trinque: Sent 13 hours and 6 minutes ago: <asciilifeform> might be worth testing whether koch's latest lul affects deedbot's gpg hose [10:46]
trinque: the thick irony being that for most nickelodeon staff, 16 is way too old. [10:46]
trinque: asciilifeform: https://archive.li/sVoej << I get zero output from the test provided at the bottom using deedbot's gpg [10:58]
BingoBoingo: And in the Latest Brasilero quirks, Apparently 28C/82F is the appropriate night time temperature for the heatpump. Because of course during the winter everyone should be adapted to sleep at a summer daytime temperature. [11:13]
mircea_popescu: !!up IdleGandalf [11:25]
deedbot: IdleGandalf voiced for 30 minutes. [11:25]
mircea_popescu: who the fuck are you and what's with that idiotic nick. [11:25]
mircea_popescu: the whole fucking species has a thing for teenage girls that's the prime directive of sexuate reproduction : defloration. [11:26]
mircea_popescu: also, wouldn't you tihnk a girl kinda retarded, if it came out she lost it at 16 ?! [11:27]
mircea_popescu: it's only natural to get rid of the skin the same year the dumb shit starts bleeding and by and large the rule. in any case the ~normal~. [11:27]
asciilifeform: trinque: neato [11:28]
asciilifeform: hey BingoBoingo : does your dental school chix have access to xray ? [11:31]
asciilifeform: asciilifeform needs a bit of xrayin' [11:31]
asciilifeform: ( well, not asciilifeform in person, but a 10 x 5 in. pcb ) [11:31]
mircea_popescu: lmao [11:32]
mircea_popescu: "Step right in here, mr alf" [11:32]
asciilifeform: lol [11:32]
mircea_popescu: !!up loper_os_cr50 [11:33]
deedbot: loper_os_cr50 voiced for 30 minutes. [11:33]
trinque: john k's crime here is bending over to the state after making a career upon ramming lulz through the censors. "3 decades struggle with mental illness" such as being heterosexual. [11:34]
mircea_popescu: heh [11:34]
mircea_popescu: the atmosphere in the great stalin-less stalinism has changed lots. nowadays people actually say dumb shit like "what the government wants it called is the proper name for it" and other inanity like that. with a straight fucking face. [11:35]
mircea_popescu: something their parents would have never even considered. [11:35]
asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/c101pa/h1.jpg << observe, cr50 has buncha test pads. i bet half a dozen of these, are used for factory fillup. [11:35]
mircea_popescu: doh. [11:35]
mircea_popescu: they're nothing if not cheap. [11:35]
asciilifeform: for completeness, http://www.loper-os.org/pub/c101pa/mb_top.jpg + http://www.loper-os.org/pub/c101pa/mb_btm.jpg ( apologies for the sad photos, they came out of a flatbed, evidently not ideal tool for this job ) [11:41]
mircea_popescu: looks like you shook it. [11:43]
asciilifeform: does, dunnit. cuz its a flatbed. gets the chip markings, mostly, but the pcb itself is out of focus by mm or 2. [11:43]
mircea_popescu: anyway, if you can get factory probes on them pads, i would not even be surprised if you can just flash it without further ado. [11:43]
asciilifeform: doubt that it's quite so trivial, typically you gotta find how to hold it in reset so it doesn't boot up to its current fritz contents [11:44]
mircea_popescu: right, there's that. [11:44]
asciilifeform: one interesting observation, is that the update mechanism lets you flash in arbitrary crapola into 'rw' section ( it simply won't jump to it if it doesn't pass rsa(sha256(payload)) ) . so theoretically could put a nop sled there, ending with jump into the magic half of unlock routine. and then expose the thing to beta/gamma, and perhaps in a few months it will Do The Right Thing [11:46]
mircea_popescu: "gandalf". fucking morons. [11:46]
asciilifeform: but would prefer to find a purely softwaric pill (e.g. buffer overrun, or whatever means to get code exec) [11:46]
mircea_popescu: this may take a lot of doing. [11:47]
asciilifeform: idea being, it would be a substantial help to have even one unlocked box to experiment with. [11:47]
mircea_popescu: aha. [11:47]
mircea_popescu: these fucktards! they wanna go about derping about "tin foil" and whatnot "unprofessional", then queue up to read all about "gandalf". [11:48]
mircea_popescu: "oh but mp, it's different species of slime". no, it fucking isn't. all slime is the exact same identical species : itself. [11:48]
asciilifeform: not merely 'gandalf', but 'idle gandalf'!11 [11:49]
asciilifeform: the sheer cheek. [11:49]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: a break of the rng would also do the job. ( admittedly , tall order , but listed for completeness. ) [11:51]
asciilifeform: ( the 'rma unlock' 32byte turd, is simply rng output ) [11:51]
mircea_popescu: accomodating fucking parents. [11:51]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, how's the rng work ? maybe a bit of electric field can set out 1s ? [11:51]
asciilifeform: prolly it's the typical on-chip ring oscillator, plus bit of whitener. [11:52]
asciilifeform: the fact that h1 started life as fpga, suggests this. [11:52]
mircea_popescu: you got a field generator ? [11:52]
asciilifeform: i got various things. problem is that i do not currently have a popped unit where i can see the effect of $manipulation on rng (or any other part, aside from general 'it crashed') [11:53]
asciilifeform: the lulzy bit is that likely, a thousand or more unlocked units exist, in the hands of various derps [11:54]
asciilifeform: an ounce of intel work would prolly beat ten pounds of lab wizardry in this case. [11:55]
mircea_popescu: hm [11:55]
asciilifeform: ( recall kgb maslennikov ? 'we dun break keys, we buy'em' ) [11:55]
mircea_popescu: problem is, they tend to be asexuate derps. [11:55]
mircea_popescu: but, i can see the angle. [11:56]
asciilifeform: and holy fuq the sheer militant uselessness of each new crop of i_came_via_reddit weevils. [12:04]
asciilifeform: seems as if each set breaks new record. [12:05]
mircea_popescu: and in other http://trilema.com/forum-logs-for-10-jun-2018#2446597 lulz : http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822363 is somehow an argument, but "all references circle back to usg" http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764431 bothers none of the pondscum. "that is normal". of fucking course it is, of the SOVEREIGN. which happens to be tmsr, not some rando criminal org. [12:06]
a111: Logged on 2018-06-10 15:18 mircea_popescu: if he hadn't heard of the third reich instrument of surrender he'd be going around his village singing "tomorrow belongs to me". as it is, he derps on the periphery of google. if he realised tmsr owns the world he'd be "community organizing" for you. and so on. [12:06]
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 14:39 asciilifeform: meanwhile, reddit verdict : 'Are there any less tinfoiley sites that discuss this? All of the references circle back to him.' [12:06]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 00:13 Matthew: you guys wrote this yourself right [12:06]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, my sluts don't score so much better. [12:07]
mircea_popescu: you have no fucking idea what sorts of punishments it takes to de-ingrain the "now irc link turns off" processes they have. [12:07]
mircea_popescu: it'd be easier to turn them out. ~literally~, this isn't some sort of rhetorical device. it would be easier to turn them into streetwalking whores than to turn them into sane people whose online presence has continuity. [12:08]
mircea_popescu: the amount of washing it takes to recycle imperial-farmed cunt into useful slavery is mindnumbing. [12:09]
asciilifeform: 'he will be a very well trained bear but never a world-class dancer' or how did it go. [12:09]
mircea_popescu: has nothing to do with it even. [12:09]
mircea_popescu: the better comparison is, 19yo who's been well trained to pick at her scabs. [12:09]
mircea_popescu: "bitch, stop fucking picking at it" "oh sorry master." [12:09]
mircea_popescu: 2 minutes later.... "MOTHERFUCKER!!!" [12:09]
mircea_popescu: but it's this unholy alliance of "it itches" vegetative signal and "pick at your scabs" low level motherly acculturation. [12:10]
mircea_popescu: (this, by the way, is why you shouldn't permit women to run the house. it's way too fucking easy for them to fritz-chip the jtags.) [12:10]
mircea_popescu: and the results are never good. [12:10]
mircea_popescu: (and for the gandalfs in the peanut gallery : streetwalking is ~hard~. short of infantryman during war, streetwalker has the hardest, most biodemanding job there is. which is why i respect them a lot more than i respect githikipedia contributors) [12:13]
asciilifeform: here's a historical lul that mircea_popescu might find stimulating. asciilifeform ( and his brother, and a whole generation of folx ) grew up with a certain orc '100 bytes of ram, but hey it's fucking programmable' little box, http://www.alfredklomp.com/technology/mk-61 . and the Official b00k for it ( http://publ.lib.ru/ARCHIVES/G/GAYSHTUT_Aleksandr_Grigor'evich/_Gayshtut_A.G..html ) had various games (typically you had to draw on g [12:17]
asciilifeform: rid paper, to work the labyrinths, tank battles, etc ) [12:17]
mircea_popescu: aha. [12:17]
asciilifeform: but as the '90s marched on, the thing did not, apparently, immediately fade away and die ( troo comps remained expensive, rare, until '93-'94ish ) so folx continued to write and circulate samizdat gamez : http://lordbss.pp.ru/pmk.html [12:18]
mircea_popescu: ha. [12:18]
asciilifeform: one of these was 'reactor control' , with realistic constants, you had to ramp up reactor, control the rods and the sodium pump etc, object was to get max power but avoid meltdown [12:18]
mircea_popescu: this is like saying, "Here's our companion games to a pair of dice". [12:18]
mircea_popescu: o hey. [12:18]
asciilifeform: so the hilarious bit, is that folx wrote variations on the theme, 'sim whore', 'bordello' [12:18]
asciilifeform: that were in effect EXACTLY 'reactor control', but instead of sodium pump litres/sec, probability of runaway, etc. it was 'fucks per day', 'probability of VD', 'prob. of arrest', etc. [12:19]
mircea_popescu: haha [12:20]
asciilifeform: ( and there were astonishing oddities of other kinds, for this humble machine, e.g. a 'tetris' where, lacking a graphical display, you had to instead pick a numeric column where the piece drops, and give another number representing rotation, and keep whole thing in yer head... ) [12:21]
mircea_popescu: this, incidentally, is the true problem with nuclear reactors : exactly like the coffee grinder (see http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-09#1735165 ), the probability of runaway is almost never 0. [12:21]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-09 16:38 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu earlier suggested , 'boltzmann distrib' of coffee speck velocities, almost certainly has high end that grinds pieces of your vessel into the output [12:21]
asciilifeform: orlol had a hilarious essay on subj [12:21]
mircea_popescu: somehow all the "opponents" never managed to FUCKING SAY THIS, the only actual, valid argument. [12:21]
asciilifeform: where he 'picture trying to hire world-class pianists, if occasionally grand piano exploded and took entire county with it' [12:22]
mircea_popescu: said everything else. then they want to talk about tin foils. [12:22]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, makes power, rather than beauty. [12:22]
mircea_popescu: truth of the marketplace is that a cent of power was always worth millions of beauty. [12:22]
asciilifeform: noshit.jpg [12:22]
asciilifeform: it is sorta hilarious how a good 50-60% of the popular (they were hand-copied, and machine had no nonvolatile memory, you had to throw in the proggy each time you flipped the power on ) gamez, were based on the very soviet-flavoured diff. eqn. models the factory manual suggested [12:24]
asciilifeform: 'land the capsule' [12:24]
asciilifeform: ( legendarily, soyuz actually carried mk-52, reportedly, on board, a sort of mk-61 with i/o connector, as backup to main comp ) [12:24]
mircea_popescu: this is the fundamental difference -- in the original soviet, the little soviets were expected to plug selves into machine. which, while in a deeply feminine sort of way, is nevertheless somehow satisfying. [12:25]
asciilifeform: compared to life with this orc box, mircea_popescu was tsar and god with his z80 . but , behold, even in 100bytes you can do things. [12:26]
mircea_popescu: the new soviets, however, are expected to hold it in hand -- the machine's all chinesium. [12:26]
asciilifeform: all these calculators came with full schems btw [12:26]
asciilifeform: 'centerfold' in manual [12:26]
asciilifeform: complete with reference oscillograms. if yours dies (and not infrequently, it would) you were expected to repair. [12:26]
mircea_popescu: whole consumerist thing only really started in earnest after the soviets went away. [12:27]
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in oldies, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wA_0lSxkG8 [12:28]
asciilifeform: the calculators, bk0010 ( tiny little pdp clone ! ), etc. is a sunken atlantis. it was all forgotten almost immediately when imported pc was carted in in qty [12:28]
asciilifeform: http://lordbss.pp.ru/pmk162.html << 'thief simulator' [12:29]
mircea_popescu: much like the killer micro was forgotten almost immediately once the handheld tivos were carted in qty. [12:29]
asciilifeform: 'killer micro' was colonized by microshit, and almost immediately began the march towards death, 'how do we keep plebes from copying gamez', culminating in today's boxen. [12:31]
mircea_popescu: none of the girls own a desktop, you realize this ? [12:31]
mircea_popescu: "oh, i got my phone". [12:32]
mircea_popescu: bitch... a phone is a computer in the sense your slit's a cock. [12:32]
asciilifeform: ye olde mk61 is moar of computer. even tho poor orcistan never even invented soldermask, pcb was bare, like if i made it here in my kitchen. [12:32]
asciilifeform: cuz you could actually program! it. [12:32]
mircea_popescu: anyway. i'm starting to think i'll simply add a "owns desktop" disqualifier to the list. [12:34]
asciilifeform: disqualifier? [12:34]
mircea_popescu: it's how it worked in the 90s, right, you went to a new kid's house, had no computer could not be friends, evidently underclass only good to shine your shoes. [12:34]
asciilifeform: oh aa [12:34]
asciilifeform: qualifier, then? [12:34]
mircea_popescu: why should this have ever changed. [12:34]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, well, "no computer, you can't play" is a disqualifier. "obedient, you've made it" is a qualifier. [12:34]
asciilifeform: aa then makes sense [12:34]
* asciilifeform realizes that he doesn't actually know anybody in meatspace, even elderly relatives, who does not own a desktop of ~some~ form [12:35]
mircea_popescu: you know it's like >pi per capita here ? i recently counted, it's a scandal. [12:35]
mircea_popescu: PLUS a pile of various laptops. [12:35]
asciilifeform: of course orc owns pile of laptops. orc will never throw anything away. [12:36]
mircea_popescu: no, they all work. [12:36]
asciilifeform: sure [12:36]
asciilifeform: why shouldn't they work. [12:36]
mircea_popescu: lmao. most common orc sentence re laptop includes "dun work" [12:37]
asciilifeform: ( often there'll be half a kg of dirt in the ductwork, but thing will still work, after a fashion ) [12:37]
mircea_popescu: but eg why should i throw out http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-31#1778739 ? even if it's used once in a month, you fixed it for me, it's going in the tmsr museum [12:37]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-31 13:56 mp_en_viaje: in other "thanks goodness computer means programmable machine", i have here this hp elitebook. it has the backlight permanently welded to "retina cancer". the "function" key bs works for everything else EXCEPT setting the brightness, fn-f9 does 0. [12:37]
asciilifeform: ( btw another reason c101pa would be a spiffy orc lappy -- it's got no fans/ducts ) [12:37]
mircea_popescu: no, i know. [12:37]
asciilifeform: lol i recall that thing, it was, what, 3kg ? [12:38]
mircea_popescu: car's got what 3 ? 400 HP under the hood ? let it work. [12:38]
asciilifeform: i recall when it was fashionable to make 'car comp' [12:39]
mircea_popescu: in the immortal words of barry fitzgerald, "let a good piece of machinery earn its fuel" [12:39]
asciilifeform: thing went in the boot , display on long cable , hanging somewhere near gearshift [12:39]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, i recall it too. i was fucking there! the motorola "cell phones" you could maim someone with, and the inductor computers, and so on. [12:39]
asciilifeform: aha! them [12:40]
mircea_popescu: before ac units, even. [12:40]
asciilifeform: not whole globe needs ac, tho [12:40]
asciilifeform: ( ac was ~unknown on asciilifeform's homeworld ) [12:40]
mircea_popescu: not where i lived, either. but in the shitplain of southern romania ? very fucking needed. [12:41]
asciilifeform: http://lordbss.pp.ru/pmk149.html << 'escape from gulag' [12:41]
mircea_popescu: haha. bullocks included ? [12:42]
asciilifeform: nah , moar of a 'wumpus' [12:42]
asciilifeform: prolly there was a spicier ver. with bullocks, whole orchestra. [12:42]
asciilifeform: interestingly, a major puzzler was 'how to rng'. most folx used some trigonometric crapola it ~worked.. [12:43]
* mircea_popescu off to the dungeosn. bbl! [12:43]
asciilifeform: laters. [12:43]
asciilifeform: !!up loper_os_cr50 [13:01]
deedbot: loper_os_cr50 voiced for 30 minutes. [13:01]
asciilifeform: loper_os_cr50: hello ? [13:18]
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: I can ask. Is the PCB already in Uruguay? [14:28]
asciilifeform: nope [14:28]
asciilifeform: not unless BingoBoingo can find a c101pa in uy [14:28]
asciilifeform: ( if he does, i'ma pay for it ) [14:28]
asciilifeform: !!up apt-get [14:29]
deedbot: apt-get voiced for 30 minutes. [14:29]
asciilifeform: apt-get: hello ? [14:29]
apt-get: hi [14:29]
apt-get: I just got d/c'd [14:29]
asciilifeform: what brings you to #trilema , apt-get ? [14:29]
apt-get: just here to lurk in general [14:29]
asciilifeform: apt-get: i recommend to read the logs [14:30]
asciilifeform: beats the shit out of plain lurking [14:30]
apt-get: I've been doing that a bit yesterday [14:30]
asciilifeform: apt-get: http://btcbase.org/log/ [14:30]
asciilifeform: apt-get: use the search box to find subjects that interest you [14:32]
asciilifeform: and then get yerself a proper nick, and register gpg key with deedbot , and become a person [14:32]
apt-get: >get yerself a proper nick [14:33]
apt-get: rude tbh, I've been using this one online for quite some time [14:33]
asciilifeform: well if you ~want~ to be known as apt-get... [14:33]
asciilifeform: apt-get: do you speak ru ? [14:34]
apt-get: asciilifeform, nope [14:34]
asciilifeform: damn [14:34]
apt-get: I've been interested in learning it for quite some time though [14:35]
asciilifeform: in re 'rude', the starting point is http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-07#1536618 [14:35]
a111: Logged on 2016-09-07 23:49 asciilifeform: alice_: do you know expression 'в чужой монастырь со своим уставом не ходят' ? [14:35]
apt-get: I see [14:36]
apt-get: the reason I keep using this nick is because it's quite handy to have personal info drowned out in a sea of noise when someone tries to look it up [14:37]
apt-get: I'm more interested in that kind of persona rather than adopting an identity meant to be recognized [14:38]
trinque: how can you expect someone to care about "rude tbh" if you pride yourself on being unrecognizable [14:39]
trinque: this assuming for the moment that such things aren't immediate and reliable signs the speaker's an idiot [14:40]
apt-get: I wasn't actually offended or anything, it's just banter [14:42]
danielpbarron: http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=from%3Aapt-get << sea of noise, parted [14:51]
asciilifeform: !!up |\n [14:59]
deedbot: |\n voiced for 30 minutes. [14:59]
asciilifeform: |\n: hello ? [14:59]
|\n: o/ [14:59]
|\n: what is the normal channel "flow", meaning how would i even ask a question if i got one [15:00]
|\n: just to know if it is even possible [15:00]
asciilifeform: |\n: ideally, you go and register gpg key with deedbot. then , let's say i rate you, and then you can speak whenever you have something to say. [15:00]
|\n: aha, cool! thanks asciilifeform [15:00]
asciilifeform: alternatively , somebody might give you voice, such as now , and you can speak for 30min. [15:00]
asciilifeform: |\n: recommend to read the logs, and make use of the search [15:01]
trinque: one might, say, introduce himself, like even my cat does when he walks into the room [15:01]
|\n: well it was fast i admit, now i'd better shut up because it brings too much crap to logs, got my answers, thanks [15:01]
trinque: |\n: nah you don't get off that easy. you're from .ru ? [15:02]
asciilifeform: |\n: as trinque points out -- you will get much more enthusiastic audience if you introduce yourself, and register a key, establish as person [15:02]
|\n: trinque, i'm just a dude that sometimes hears of phuctor and things that include links to the blog, i like what i see, cool pals discuss it, i'd like to track more of it, whatever it is [15:02]
|\n: i am, russia [15:03]
trinque: cool, there are several russian speakers present [15:03]
trinque: what do you do |\n ? [15:04]
|\n: apart from things unspeakable on freenode i love to bring up tor relays and i got a job as an admin of shitty place [15:05]
|\n: so i doubt theres anything remarkable i could tell about myself heh [15:05]
asciilifeform: |\n: i noticed today that there is 0 discussion of cr50/h1 in ru net [15:07]
asciilifeform: |\n: how about you go and fix this [15:08]
asciilifeform: the english people are clinically retarded. let's try the civilized world, how about. [15:08]
|\n: good shout, sure i got my miserable excuses, since i'm not media person, i constantly attempt to tell about such things to people who show interest, but the scales are as miserable as my excuses hah [15:10]
asciilifeform: |\n: use what you have. [15:10]
asciilifeform: !!up swiftgeek [15:10]
deedbot: swiftgeek voiced for 30 minutes. [15:10]
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: hello ? [15:10]
swiftgeek: doing simple fact checking, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2433 doesn't mark clearly fritz chip [15:11]
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: slightly better photo from today, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822393 [15:11]
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 15:35 asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/c101pa/h1.jpg << observe, cr50 has buncha test pads. i bet half a dozen of these, are used for factory fillup. [15:11]
swiftgeek: oh now i see that violeet thing [15:11]
swiftgeek: sneaky [15:11]
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: if you want to talk to the cr50 in your unit, all you need is the simple cable in http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2415 article [15:12]
asciilifeform: cr50 will appear on /dev/ttyUSB0 [15:12]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: nope i'm here for fact checking, from #libreboot [15:12]
asciilifeform: you will get a (very limited, pretty much all you can do is to read version strings and gpio voltages) command prompt [15:12]
swiftgeek: also if you somehow damage C201PA irrecoverably please don't trash them [15:13]
swiftgeek: that board itself needs to be reversed (PCB) [15:13]
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: i do not currently have a 201 [15:13]
asciilifeform: i am however accumulating a pile of c101pa boards [15:13]
asciilifeform: and definitely interested in getting one xrayed. you got an xray machine, swiftgeek ? [15:14]
|\n: even if something is not clear - hardware is full of shit, supplying any trust towards vendors is as stupid as saying that someone might now have some private keys from whatever, being it an IT or automotive industry (pick any), i believe that is why some papers on standards that might shed light on ways of how proprietary things (that belong to owners) work [15:14]
swiftgeek: nope and won't help [15:14]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: what we need is to tear down board layer by layer [15:14]
|\n: are pricey [15:14]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Sciphone_Dream_G2#PCB_layers [15:14]
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: even simple xray would give you basic info, such as the number of balls in the bga, and possibly the routes of the test pads (it ain't a very crowded pcb) [15:15]
swiftgeek: if starts align properly i will be doing something similar for kgpe-d16 [15:15]
asciilifeform: but ideally yes, would strip it properly [15:15]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: also decap the damn chip [15:15]
asciilifeform: yes [15:16]
swiftgeek: and sent it to zeptobars or what they were called [15:16]
swiftgeek: yep them https://zeptobars.com/en/read/Espressif-ESP8266-wifi-serial-rs232-ESP8089-IoT [15:16]
swiftgeek: it's definitely in interesting category [15:16]
asciilifeform: all i've been able to find is that 1) it is an arm cortex-m , prolly licensed 2) started life as fpga ( see google's src, comments repeatedly refer to earlier vers as 'fpga' , then , later, 'g-chip' ) [15:16]
asciilifeform: it also has onboard flash [15:16]
asciilifeform: ( the cr50 rom is ~not~ kept in the winbond spi rom where the boot loader ( google's crippled coreboot ) lives ) [15:16]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: well in thinkpads we have fun gate array [15:17]
swiftgeek: that we are reversing [15:17]
swiftgeek: (PMH-* ) [15:17]
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: in re cr50, i am specifically interested in whatever factory test pads exist , with which the thing may be filled up with initial fw on manufacture [15:17]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: well you should be only concerned first about black boxing it [15:17]
asciilifeform: if these are found, and found to work, it is likely to be the shortest path to proper jailbreak [15:17]
asciilifeform: black boxing ? [15:18]
swiftgeek: ie. it doesn't look like a necessary component to me [15:18]
asciilifeform: unfortunately it is [15:18]
swiftgeek: so making something equivalent first would be beneficial [15:18]
asciilifeform: they moved power supply init into it [15:18]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: that's what i mean by that :D [15:18]
swiftgeek: it sounds like you can replace it easily by some dumb components [15:19]
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: see https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/platform/ec/+/master/board/cr50/gpio.inc ( what is known of the pin functions ) [15:19]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: so it's necessary and it's like PMH but with mcu? [15:20]
asciilifeform: so far we know that it handles the power button signal the reset magic combo on the kbd and the 3.3v rail bringup. it also handles the usb debug functionality that you get with the cable linked earlier [15:20]
swiftgeek: what i mean is [15:20]
swiftgeek: is host communicating with it to do something important to keep machine alive? [15:20]
asciilifeform: but conceivably you could , at some expense, come up with a pad-for-pad substitute, and lift the thing, then solder to the balls [15:20]
swiftgeek: or is it just some stupid bloat [15:20]
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: the way it is connected now, the box won't actually power up without it [15:21]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: well you only need to do it once [15:21]
asciilifeform: not once, but for each unit [15:21]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: after that once you have confirmed model of black box and from then you can figure out something way more efficient [15:21]
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: asciilifeform's orig plan was to sell cleansed c101pa machines. if this said cleansing requires lifting a bga, and attaching a manufactured replacement , we will be talking about considerably different cost than if the machines can be cleansed in 10min via software, via debug snake. [15:22]
asciilifeform: makes sense ? [15:22]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: i'm only speaking about doing it once in history xD [15:22]
swiftgeek: one unit no more [15:22]
asciilifeform: sure, but i want 1000+ units, rather than 1 elaborately handcrafted. [15:23]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: the point is to take some lessons from that 1 unit [15:23]
swiftgeek: it will be silly if end result is just few modwires :> [15:23]
asciilifeform: google's src already contains everything you need, in theory, to make a hypothetical benign replacement for cr50 [15:24]
asciilifeform: that ~only~ brings up 3v, etc [15:24]
asciilifeform: however this approach is expensive, in manual labour, and its cost borders on that of simply making new machines from 0 [15:24]
asciilifeform: which makes it of secondary interest to us [15:24]
swiftgeek: eh [15:24]
asciilifeform: and as soon as we start doing it, they'll start pouring epoxy, and then cost goes up yet again [15:25]
swiftgeek: i'm telling you that it will be simpler to do it once and this way confirm every part of it [15:25]
swiftgeek: looking at some code you found there isn't the same as poking the actual thing [15:25]
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: if you'd like to take a c101pa and deball the bga and try this, and post article, i promise to read [15:26]
asciilifeform: sadly i am not currently equipped for such an experiment [15:26]
swiftgeek: WEP852D+ [15:26]
swiftgeek: they are cheap [15:26]
asciilifeform: i have a very similar machine [15:26]
swiftgeek: ok skip WEP, it's a whitelabel thing [15:26]
asciilifeform: that's not the sticking point [15:26]
swiftgeek: it's a tiny bga chip that you can remove yourself easily [15:27]
asciilifeform: sticking point is to solder to the balls [15:27]
swiftgeek: hmm [15:27]
asciilifeform: yes anybody can lift bga ( tricky to do without cracking the board, but doable if you are patient ) [15:27]
swiftgeek: not tricky xD [15:27]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: x200t already requires a bit of rework [15:27]
asciilifeform: soldering however many balls are under it, to bodge wires, and attaching logic analyzer etc, is the headache [15:27]
|\n: in terms of labour there are many people who would lift it and reflow for 5-10 usd per operation, even here in russia, but epoxy will ruin such perfect model =) [15:27]
asciilifeform: what you'd want, is to solder an interposer b/w the cr50 and the pcb [15:28]
asciilifeform: and get a trace of all of the signals [15:28]
asciilifeform: ( if you simply lift it, there'll be no signals, board doesn't come up ) [15:28]
swiftgeek: |\n: it's not that big chip xD [15:28]
swiftgeek: for something that silly cleaning it up will take order of magnitude more than rework xD [15:29]
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: out of curiosity, what's your interest in this particular box ? [15:29]
asciilifeform: coreboot dev ? [15:29]
swiftgeek: nothing , it went up on reddit [15:29]
asciilifeform: aah [15:29]
asciilifeform: !!up |\n [15:29]
deedbot: |\n voiced for 30 minutes. [15:29]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: if somebody will end up with dead c201pa in eu then hopefully i will get it for teardown if they remember [15:30]
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: if you register a gpg key with deedbot, you will be able to voice yourself [15:30]
asciilifeform: !!help [15:30]
deedbot: http://deedbot.org/help.html [15:30]
asciilifeform: ^ instructions [15:30]
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/06/israeli-knesset-quietly-disqualifies-equality-bill-maintain-the-jewish-majority-even-if-it-violates-rights/ << Qntra - Israeli Knesset Quietly Disqualifies Equality Bill: Maintain The Jewish Majority Even If It Violates Rights [15:30]
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: why do you need a dead unit, why not buy fresh one [15:30]
asciilifeform: ultra-low budget project ? [15:31]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: e-waste, i'm against it [15:31]
asciilifeform: not really possible to thoroughly reverse things without creating a pile of rubbish, sadly [15:31]
swiftgeek: using e-waste for research pretty much lowers amount of it [15:31]
asciilifeform: i'm on my 2nd board.. [15:31]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: sure it is , it's the best way [15:31]
swiftgeek: but c201pa isn't very popular and people forget about me [15:32]
swiftgeek: with thinkpads we had much more fun [15:32]
asciilifeform: to be clear, asciilifeform is working with c101pa . [15:32]
swiftgeek: we pretty much understand in full depth what thinkpad is [15:32]
asciilifeform: ( i do not yet know what is in the 201pa ) [15:32]
|\n: any intel on supply chain of this stone? had to ask [15:33]
asciilifeform: not currently [15:33]
asciilifeform: |\n: best suspicion thus far is that it is a 'hardcopy fpga' (cheap, relatively, method for getting chip baked, they apply a custom metallization mask to a stock crystal) [15:33]
|\n: any other devices with the extra similar one (even with brushed label)? [15:33]
swiftgeek: and remember that silly thing where people claimed that quality of thinkpads plummeted since IBM stopped making thinkpads and lenovo took over? [15:34]
swiftgeek: as if there was some noticeable change xD [15:34]
asciilifeform: |\n: only chromebook. afaik all recently-rolledout units, have it [15:34]
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: i definitely noticed the change. [15:34]
swiftgeek: IBM didn't make a single thinkpad since at least T20 [15:34]
asciilifeform: having used ~every thinkpad made. [15:34]
swiftgeek: T line belongs to USI till T400/500, then lenovo took over [15:35]
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: if you are a thinkpad aficionado, there is a patched x60 bios in the logs, iirc 2015 [15:35]
asciilifeform: we have several people here, using it [15:35]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: i'm from #libreboot , dev :) [15:35]
asciilifeform: aa [15:35]
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: i actually started with attempt to port generic coreboot to c101pa, and ended up finding the cr50 by accident [15:36]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: TrackPoint is 80C51 blob so we are reversing that too :) [15:36]
asciilifeform: neato [15:36]
asciilifeform: c101pa also includes a trackpad with flashable blob fw [15:36]
swiftgeek: well traskpoint is mask rom [15:36]
asciilifeform: thus far i know nothing about it aside from the update/reflash mechanism (it is done via the ec) [15:36]
asciilifeform: i also have a sample fw blob [15:36]
asciilifeform: but this is for much later. [15:36]
swiftgeek: but patents are expiring so it's really pressing to make libre trackpoint, even at scale modem [15:37]
swiftgeek: *model [15:37]
asciilifeform: personally, i'd consider a box with no trackpad function, to be usable [15:37]
asciilifeform: but perhaps that's just me [15:37]
swiftgeek: anyway so far you have took some guesses that it's a infeon chip right? [15:38]
swiftgeek: it certainly doesn't look like one [15:39]
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: to complete the picture, my initial interest in cr50 was in the debug functionality the thing can override #WP signal and rewrite the EC and boot roms , via usb snake. so it'd be quite convenient to have access. however the factory firmware locks it. [15:39]
asciilifeform: it is not an infineon, this is more or less certain [15:39]
asciilifeform: google baked it as a replacement for the infineon. [15:39]
swiftgeek: machine is from 2013? [15:40]
asciilifeform: ( i cannot rule out the possibility that it was built in cooperation with, or at the facility of , infineon it is stamped 'TWN' so this is at least theoretically hinted ) [15:40]
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: 2018 [15:40]
swiftgeek: huh? [15:40]
asciilifeform: i uncrated it in end of april [15:40]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/h1_fritz_chip.jpg [15:40]
asciilifeform: !!up swiftgeek [15:40]
deedbot: swiftgeek voiced for 30 minutes. [15:40]
swiftgeek: from this pic, what's the newest date code ? [15:40]
swiftgeek: winbond is from 2011 [15:41]
asciilifeform: that winbond's been in production since early 2000s [15:41]
asciilifeform: ( it's the bootloader fw, btw ) [15:41]
swiftgeek: sure but they are not using old stock [15:41]
asciilifeform: the c101pa itself was introduced in '17 [15:41]
swiftgeek: ah 101pa [15:41]
swiftgeek: i confused the 2 for 1 and this is the thing? [15:42]
asciilifeform: the h1 is the item in the right hand side of the photo [15:42]
asciilifeform: marked in purple [15:42]
swiftgeek: lol correct [15:42]
asciilifeform: 'H1B2C' [15:42]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: so that whole time i was thinking this is c201pa [15:42]
asciilifeform: aa [15:42]
asciilifeform: nope [15:42]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: what's the name of the board? [15:43]
asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/c101pa_open.jpg << machine [15:43]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: yeah i only care about board xD [15:43]
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: here's a flatbed scan of the board, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822396 [15:44]
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 15:41 asciilifeform: for completeness, http://www.loper-os.org/pub/c101pa/mb_top.jpg + http://www.loper-os.org/pub/c101pa/mb_btm.jpg ( apologies for the sad photos, they came out of a flatbed, evidently not ideal tool for this job ) [15:44]
swiftgeek: c201pa is called speedy [15:44]
asciilifeform: this one is 'bob' [15:44]
asciilifeform: also apparently was known as 'gru' in early in-house versions [15:44]
swiftgeek: pretty awful but again wifi on m.2 card [15:44]
asciilifeform: ( according to amstan , a fella from #linux-rockchip who introduced himself as one of the designers, but is rather tight-lipped ) [15:44]
swiftgeek: so if anything comes you can replace it lol [15:44]
asciilifeform: wifi is soldered down on these [15:45]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: is it connected over sdio or pcie or usb? [15:45]
asciilifeform: but in theory you can plug in usb wifi etc [15:45]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: yes correct [15:45]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: m.2 comes in many form factors [15:45]
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: the wifi ? on this one ? seems to be on pci bus [15:45]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: great then you can replace it ! [15:45]
asciilifeform: with reballing etc. lol. [15:45]
swiftgeek: no reballing lol [15:45]
swiftgeek: it's m.2 card [15:45]
asciilifeform: there's no socket on the pcb [15:46]
asciilifeform: the module is soldered on [15:46]
swiftgeek: yep [15:46]
swiftgeek: i can't guess dimensions properly so let's assume it's the same as with c201pa [15:46]
swiftgeek: M.2 Type 1216 [15:47]
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: you can infer exact dimension from the usbc jack [15:47]
asciilifeform: ( or the plain usb3 ) [15:47]
swiftgeek: shitty sparklan example http://www.sparklan.com/p2-products-detail.php?PKey=77ffCKwjlQdwb8Ih1Lte5lnBX2_gCozga_6dk6DCy0s&WNSQ-261ACN(BT) [15:48]
asciilifeform: yep looks like the same footprint [15:48]
asciilifeform: how would you go about lifting it without ending up reflowing the internals? [15:49]
swiftgeek: be sane [15:49]
asciilifeform: prolly would need ir preheater for the underside ? [15:49]
swiftgeek: not necessarily IR preheater or anything fancy but (any) preheater would be nice [15:49]
swiftgeek: due to bending and stresses due to differential heating [15:50]
asciilifeform: aha [15:50]
swiftgeek: still with patience it shouldn't do that even if you don't have preheater [15:50]
swiftgeek: and it kinda depends on thermal mass in that area [15:50]
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: if you end up doing it, plz consider publishing the procedure [15:50]
swiftgeek: why xD [15:51]
swiftgeek: it's normal thing [15:51]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: grab yourself pile of e-waste and practice on that :> [15:51]
asciilifeform: like anatomical practice on corpses, the approach has its obvious limits [15:51]
asciilifeform: ( waste pcb won't tell you that you have not reflowed/mutilated/stress-fractured something ) [15:51]
swiftgeek: except that level up is grab pile of e-waste [15:52]
swiftgeek: and fix them [15:52]
asciilifeform: at any rate i am not presently concerned with the 80211 card [15:52]
swiftgeek: wistron thinkpads are pretty decent when it comes to repair [15:52]
asciilifeform: thus far i know how to cut power to it, and this suffices for my purpose [15:52]
swiftgeek: (X series till x230 afair) [15:52]
asciilifeform: ( its rail is controlled via EC ) [15:52]
swiftgeek: X240 was made by compal-lenovo joint venture [15:53]
swiftgeek: and afair end result was worst aspect of them both combined [15:53]
swiftgeek: (compal alone makes the best boards for debugging /repair) [15:53]
swiftgeek: you can diagnose compal board in 5 minutes flat [15:53]
swiftgeek: (given schematics and boardview) [15:54]
asciilifeform: currently i am not very interested in intel iron [15:54]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: well compal makes tons of things xD [15:54]
asciilifeform: hence investigation of c101pa and similar [15:54]
swiftgeek: remember osmocombb moto things? [15:54]
swiftgeek: compal made them afair xD [15:54]
asciilifeform: https://osmocom.org/projects/baseband/wiki/MotorolaC123 << these ? [15:55]
swiftgeek: yep [15:55]
swiftgeek: yeah compal :D [15:56]
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: given your introduction ( http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822589 ) i assume you may be interested in verifying fact that cr50 is not a subfunctionality of the ordinary (i.e. kept in winbond spi ) bootrom or the EC controller ('nuvoton' arm , visible in right hand of photo ). this is very simple to do: [15:57]
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 19:11 swiftgeek: doing simple fact checking, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2433 doesn't mark clearly fritz chip [15:57]
asciilifeform: disable the spi boot rom using the method shown in http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2382 article. then insert the 'suzyq' debug cable, shown in http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2415 [15:58]
asciilifeform: you will observe that you are still able to communicate with the machine [15:58]
asciilifeform: because you are talking to cr50, which is active at all times, even when 'off' [15:58]
asciilifeform: and it does not rely on the cpu (referred to as 'AP' in google's srcs) [15:58]
asciilifeform: or the EC [15:58]
swiftgeek: welp that's interesting and if it spews out a lot of uart then it's most likely running on some core [15:59]
asciilifeform: it runs on the h1 device pictured in h1.jpg. [15:59]
asciilifeform: in fact , if you are so fond of lifting bga, lift the cpu , the spi rom, and the ec, and you will find that you still get the /tty/USB0 shell [15:59]
asciilifeform: !!up |\n [16:00]
deedbot: |\n voiced for 30 minutes. [16:00]
swiftgeek: oh it's an entire shell? [16:00]
swiftgeek: that's interesting for sure [16:00]
asciilifeform: btw you will get EC uart on /dev/ttyUSB1 [16:00]
asciilifeform: and cpu uart ( from the rk3399 ) on /dev/ttyUSB2 [16:00]
asciilifeform: the latter , you can get root shell on, on stock machine if it is in dev mode [16:01]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: then i would really recommend finding dead one and sending chip to zeptobars [16:01]
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: i intend to send a unit to zeptobars in near future. i do not however expect any interesting result, afaik no 22nm or similar density device has ever been publicly reversed [16:01]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: why would you expect that llol [16:02]
swiftgeek: i doubt it will be below 65nm [16:02]
asciilifeform: got example of a successful public reversing of any recent (i.e. post-1995) crystal ? [16:02]
asciilifeform: i'd luvv to be proven wrong on this subj [16:02]
swiftgeek: xtal? who reverses that? :D [16:03]
asciilifeform: not clock crystal, lol [16:03]
asciilifeform: i mean, asic die. [16:03]
asciilifeform: sorry, ru world terminology [16:03]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: they are marked usualy on die [16:03]
swiftgeek: no need to reverse really, just look at it [16:03]
asciilifeform: lol i was not speaking of timing xtal [16:04]
swiftgeek: hopefully layers won't need to be removed [16:04]
asciilifeform: given as it is a tpm/drm crock of shit, i fully expect false metal masks and the other joys of 'tamper resistence' [16:04]
swiftgeek: but if they are bunch of dicks then first visible layer will be just metal blocking chip from the view [16:04]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: is it TPM for real? [16:04]
swiftgeek: or do you just call it that [16:04]
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: look in the src, it incorporates tpm [16:05]
asciilifeform: i.e. 100% replacement of the old infineon they formerly used [16:05]
swiftgeek: then yeah inform zeptobars about the need to remove metal layers [16:05]
swiftgeek: it will make for interesting post lol [16:05]
swiftgeek: sigh i think i lost video about removing layers xD [16:06]
asciilifeform: the sad bit is that it is many yrs of labour, to go from even a high quality die shot, to functionality [16:07]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSW8dZeE1yM [16:07]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: you won't :D [16:07]
asciilifeform: it so happens that i know how decapping etc is done. [16:08]
swiftgeek: the point is to see something in it [16:08]
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: my specific interest is to get arbitrary code exec on the device. [16:09]
asciilifeform: rather than, say, to fill photo album with pretty pics. [16:09]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: sure but not looking can double the work [16:09]
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: out of curiosity, what would you look for in a die shot ? [16:09]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: possible theories of what PMH7 is were pretty wild till we realized it's TC200G [16:10]
swiftgeek: i finally realized from leftover clues [16:10]
swiftgeek: but it would be clearly marked on the die as well [16:10]
asciilifeform: i, for instance, would like to know which fpga was their starting point. and where its factory test pads are. [16:10]
asciilifeform: and whether there is any mechanism to inhibit them [16:10]
asciilifeform: !!up swiftgeek [16:10]
deedbot: swiftgeek voiced for 30 minutes. [16:10]
swiftgeek: yep and all that you will learn from photo of zeptobars [16:11]
asciilifeform: ideally [16:11]
asciilifeform: !!up loper_os_cr50 [16:11]
deedbot: loper_os_cr50 voiced for 30 minutes. [16:11]
swiftgeek: + you can take some educated guesses [16:11]
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: even more ideally, would learn this without waiting for decaps. [16:11]
asciilifeform: but this is still in progress. [16:11]
asciilifeform: loper_os_cr50: hello ? [16:11]
swiftgeek: well you will see standard cell library [16:11]
swiftgeek: eventually somebody will match it to factory [16:11]
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: you know how this usually ends, right ? [16:12]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: just like via matched their to what asmedia stole from them [16:12]
|\n: imaginary, just in theory, can it be some ST72264G2 [16:12]
swiftgeek: fun case [16:12]
asciilifeform: the way it usually ends, is that we learn something useful just in time for the device to go out of print. [16:12]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: remember that recent AMD chipset from amdflaws? [16:12]
asciilifeform: which is what the designer was banking on when he put in the false metallization layers etc. [16:13]
asciilifeform: sure [16:13]
swiftgeek: asmedia made it, using standard cell library stolen from VIA [16:13]
swiftgeek: and i was wondering why we don't see so much VIA chipsets anymore xD [16:13]
swiftgeek: https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCOURTS-cand-5_14-cv-03586/pdf/USCOURTS-cand-5_14-cv-03586-10.pdf [16:14]
swiftgeek: oh wait that's another filing lol [16:14]
asciilifeform: at any rate, my current approach will be to do some fuzzing of the cr50 console and slave spi interfaces [16:15]
swiftgeek: this one https://insight.rpxcorp.com/litigation_documents/12326879 [16:15]
asciilifeform: if i can exploitably crash the thing , my job is done [16:15]
asciilifeform: see also http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822402 . [16:15]
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 15:46 asciilifeform: one interesting observation, is that the update mechanism lets you flash in arbitrary crapola into 'rw' section ( it simply won't jump to it if it doesn't pass rsa(sha256(payload)) ) . so theoretically could put a nop sled there, ending with jump into the magic half of unlock routine. and then expose the thing to beta/gamma, and perhaps in a few months it will Do The Right Thing [16:15]
swiftgeek: anyway back to the name [16:16]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: do you know what is the name of the board yet or not ? [16:16]
swiftgeek: it's often close to coreboot name [16:16]
asciilifeform: what do you mean by 'name' ? [16:16]
asciilifeform: google's product code is 'bob' [16:16]
asciilifeform: dev version of same, was 'gru' [16:17]
swiftgeek: bob ? xD [16:17]
swiftgeek: microsoft bob? [16:17]
asciilifeform: https://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/developer-information-for-chrome-os-devices << see vendor's chart. [16:18]
asciilifeform: September 1, 2017 Asus Chromebook Flip C101PA Bob rk3399 etc [16:18]
swiftgeek: yeah then judging from c201pa entry [16:19]
swiftgeek: it's called bob [16:19]
asciilifeform: you will find the string in the boot rom fw also [16:19]
swiftgeek: that will make for shitty search results in google [16:19]
swiftgeek: bob repair guide [16:20]
swiftgeek: lol [16:20]
asciilifeform: there is very little to be had in the search results, other than the src repo itself [16:20]
swiftgeek: they are doing this shitty naming on purpose [16:20]
swiftgeek: so i won't find anything xD [16:20]
asciilifeform: c101pa finds various retailers, and, if you dig persistently, asciilifeform's www, and that's currently more or less it. [16:21]
asciilifeform: to be fair, it's a pretty recent box. [16:21]
swiftgeek: ok can't find anything on any usual suspects [16:22]
swiftgeek: it should appear about now for that device [16:23]
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: here, btw, is the factory boot rom (crippled coreboot) from that winbond : http://loper-os.org/pub/c101pa/factory_rom.bin [16:24]
asciilifeform: you can extract strings from it, and see which bob rev etc [16:24]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: repair guide is something that asus supplies for their devices [16:24]
swiftgeek: it's just a block diagram and power sequencing / tree [16:24]
asciilifeform: repair guide only shows you how to get the box open, really [16:24]
swiftgeek: no xD [16:24]
swiftgeek: it doesn't show that at all xD [16:24]
asciilifeform: not much use ( it is not difficult to open, and the c100pa published disassembly applies to this one, the screws are in same places ) [16:25]
asciilifeform: there is nothing usefully removable on the mb, aside from the heat sink [16:25]
asciilifeform: so i'm not sure what you expect to find in a vendor repair book [16:25]
swiftgeek: just board shots from 2 sides with few testpoints, block diagram and power sequencing / tree [16:25]
swiftgeek: that's it [16:25]
asciilifeform: aa [16:25]
asciilifeform: i have a pretty good idea of the power sequencing, from reading the ec and cr50 srcs [16:25]
asciilifeform: but sure. [16:25]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: so if you have some asus authorized repair shop [16:26]
swiftgeek: bring cookies [16:26]
swiftgeek: and vodka [16:26]
asciilifeform: lol what does 'repair shop' do aside from swapping mb [16:26]
asciilifeform: ( i do it right here with 10min of work ) [16:26]
swiftgeek: silly stuff like fuses apparently [16:26]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: i don't consider swapping a board as repair [16:27]
asciilifeform: yes in china there are repair shops that lift bga etc. [16:27]
asciilifeform: but you will not find these in usa. [16:27]
swiftgeek: i thought you were in russia [16:27]
asciilifeform: nope [16:27]
asciilifeform: that was |\n [16:27]
swiftgeek: ah [16:27]
swiftgeek: then just bring cookies and whatnot [16:27]
swiftgeek: it never hurts trying [16:28]
asciilifeform: i don't see this as a productive line of probing [16:28]
swiftgeek: (at the end of their shift) [16:28]
asciilifeform: board-swapping monkeys. [16:28]
swiftgeek: nah [16:28]
swiftgeek: you need to at least check some points c'mon [16:29]
asciilifeform: srsly, try walking into repair with chromebook. 'we can reset this for you for $50', lol [16:29]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: i would bake cookies and bring them some xd [16:29]
asciilifeform: the schem, for instance, is not given to repair contractors. or i would already have found it. [16:30]
swiftgeek: they are [16:30]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: sometimes it's schematics sometimes it's boardview alone only [16:30]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: if something ever leaks it first appears on chinafix xd [16:30]
asciilifeform: right [16:30]
asciilifeform: and it ain't there. [16:30]
asciilifeform: last i saw. [16:30]
swiftgeek: what i mean is that chromebooks aren't popular in china [16:31]
asciilifeform: fwiw i don't have any use for anything short of the schem [16:31]
swiftgeek: so likeliness of it leaking on its own is tiny [16:31]
asciilifeform: i have already identified all of the major components [16:31]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: well lol, it's about netlist [16:31]
asciilifeform: well yes, the schem [16:31]
asciilifeform: fwiw the only nonstandard chip is the h1. [16:31]
swiftgeek: we need it to have something proper [16:32]
asciilifeform: everything else, is off-the-shelf [16:32]
swiftgeek: otherwise you are literally reversing open source code to figure out something that is presented clearly and for sure in boardview/schematics [16:32]
swiftgeek: that m.2 module thing took seriously way too much time for us xD [16:32]
asciilifeform: according to amstan , the fella claiming to be a designer of c101pa , everything connected with cr50 is deeply trade secret, and shared with no one outside of google. [16:33]
swiftgeek: i only realized it when investigating some newer SSDs [16:33]
swiftgeek: pfffff [16:33]
asciilifeform: but i have no way to verify the truth of what he said, aside from noticing that there is 0 discussion anywhere on the net, aside from #trilema and my www, of the h1. [16:33]
asciilifeform: ( if you know of a counter-example, please link ) [16:33]
swiftgeek: together with your explanation of purpose of the chip [16:34]
swiftgeek: it's not possible xD [16:34]
swiftgeek: either chipie does far less or the thing is secret [16:34]
asciilifeform: so far my only clue that h1 actually runs the given fw , is that i was able to flash in a vendor update : http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-08#1821699 and ended up with a slightly different, in the ways suggested by the src, console [16:35]
a111: Logged on 2018-06-08 17:15 asciilifeform: i was able to flash in the https://gsdview.appspot.com/chromeos-localmirror/distfiles/cr50.r0.0.10.w0.3.4.tbz2 image it supports a few moar commands, including 'rma open' returned-to-factory unlocker thing. but result was , unsurprisingly, 'with notes from hitler only' : http://www.loper-os.org/pub/c101pa/c101pa_unlock_nodice.txt [16:35]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: anyway authorized repair shop has ridiculous amount of tools to diagnose board [16:35]
asciilifeform: https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/platform/ec/+/master/chip/g/ << starting point re console functionality ( locked and unlocked ) [16:35]
swiftgeek: whether they use it or not it's up to them xD [16:36]
swiftgeek: just like apple geniuses [16:36]
swiftgeek: with that amount of tools you could fix those devices during a coffee break xD [16:36]
asciilifeform: a chinese shop could, for instance, mount the http://www.loper-os.org/pub/c101pa_dbg.jpg ( 'google servo' ) connector, on to the vacant pads. BUT this does not give me anything that i do not already have via the 'suzyq'. [16:37]
swiftgeek: libreboot thinkpad doesn't have it easy, neither BSDLs nor XOR test chains are described for our montevina targets [16:38]
asciilifeform: not to mention that i do not have the 'servo' device, nor see anything to be won from building it ( it gives access to the consoles, which i already have, and spi, which i already have via soldered probes, and that's it. ) [16:38]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: ask paulk-* [16:38]
asciilifeform: the fella in #rockchip-linux ? [16:38]
swiftgeek: * signifies device paulk is connecting from [16:38]
swiftgeek: #libreboot / #coreboot at least [16:38]
asciilifeform: paulk-gagarine ? [16:39]
swiftgeek: yep [16:39]
asciilifeform: seems that we have already spoken [16:39]
asciilifeform: see the june 9 log. [16:39]
swiftgeek: gagarine is the machine [16:39]
asciilifeform: ( their chan's ) [16:39]
asciilifeform: https://irclog.whitequark.org/linux-rockchip/2018-06-09 [16:39]
swiftgeek: so don't be confused if he logs from different node xD [16:39]
asciilifeform: fella seemed quite surprised that h1 exists at all [16:40]
swiftgeek: sure it was planned and everything was so pompous about it [16:40]
swiftgeek: i didn't know they have actually made it finally [16:40]
asciilifeform: at any rate i encourage folx who think that i dreamed it all, to build the snake ( i posted schem ) and do the exact experiment suggested earlier in http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822821 . [16:40]
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 19:57 asciilifeform: swiftgeek: given your introduction ( http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822589 ) i assume you may be interested in verifying fact that cr50 is not a subfunctionality of the ordinary (i.e. kept in winbond spi ) bootrom or the EC controller ('nuvoton' arm , visible in right hand of photo ). this is very simple to do: [16:40]
swiftgeek: and included in commercial device at that [16:40]
asciilifeform: !!up swiftgeek [16:41]
deedbot: swiftgeek voiced for 30 minutes. [16:41]
asciilifeform: !!up hl` [16:41]
deedbot: hl` voiced for 30 minutes. [16:41]
asciilifeform: hl`: hello ? [16:41]
hl`: Hi. [16:41]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: anyway if you can tell i care a lot about e-waste and such chipie is creating serious problems [16:41]
asciilifeform: what brings you to #trilema, hl` ? [16:42]
hl`: I'm a longtime owner-control advocate. [16:42]
hl`: I found your blogpost on lobste.rs. [16:42]
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: as far as i'm concerned , all boxes not yet cured of fritz are 'ewaste' [16:42]
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: as soon as they roll off the conveyor. [16:42]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: well if you want to blame google/asus sure [16:42]
swiftgeek: but don't actually treat them like that [16:42]
asciilifeform: hl`: please read the chan logs and make use of the search, before asking q, http://btcbase.org/log/ [16:43]
hl`: Sure. [16:43]
swiftgeek: it's kinda like neighbouring country dumping some trash in forest of other country [16:43]
swiftgeek: *in your country [16:44]
swiftgeek: while it's illegal dump, you have to deal with it nevertheless [16:44]
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: i personally am more annoyed at rubbish masquerading as computer, than by general-purpose rubbish [16:44]
asciilifeform: ( and by the total unavailability, other than as antique, of actual computer ) [16:44]
swiftgeek: hmm let's take last ditch detour, FCC ID [16:46]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: i can tell at the very least it doesn't look like anything ROHM would make (the chip) [16:46]
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: UAY-W8997-M1216 [16:47]
asciilifeform: as printed on bottom of chassis [16:47]
swiftgeek: yeah another one of those modular certification [16:47]
asciilifeform: doesn't give much . [16:47]
swiftgeek: just m.2 module [16:48]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: https://fccid.io/UAY-W8997-M1216/Letter/Modular-Approval-Request-3270024 [16:49]
asciilifeform: right [16:49]
swiftgeek: it's a new form of getting FCC certification [16:49]
swiftgeek: and you get confirmation on size [16:49]
swiftgeek: m.2 1216 [16:49]
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: understand, i have a quite specific aim in re this machine, outlined in http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822866 . i do not particularly care re the irrelevant details, e.g. the shape of the antennae in m2, or the exact diameters of the screw holes, etc. [16:50]
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 20:09 asciilifeform: swiftgeek: my specific interest is to get arbitrary code exec on the device. [16:50]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: sure, but you can replace card :) [16:50]
asciilifeform: i can also 'replace the card' by switching off its power rail via ec and inserting usb nic dongle. [16:50]
asciilifeform: so this part is not so interesting imho. [16:51]
asciilifeform: but i will add, cr50 also hangs from same vreg's enable line and can switch it... back on [16:51]
asciilifeform: ( afaik strictly via the console, but this remains to be determined ) [16:51]
asciilifeform: i've established that cr50 ~will~ accept fw update if ver is incremented and rsa signature is valid. so anybody with google's rsa key and 10 seconds of physical access can insert new fw into cr50. [16:52]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: ditto for any other TPM [16:53]
asciilifeform: ( this was possible because i purchased a unit having cr50.r0.0.10.w0.3.3 fw ) [16:53]
swiftgeek: what i'm annoyed about is that infeon is not distributing updates directly to consumers [16:54]
swiftgeek: so if somebody has separate module they are left vulnerable [16:54]
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: the typical x86 pc 'infineon' etc tpm, cannot do such interesting things as overriding bios write protect, accessing microphone, etc [16:54]
asciilifeform: so 'it's a tpm' is not anything like whole story. [16:54]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: it kinda can in very specific circumstances [16:54]
asciilifeform: i am not particularly interested in infineon, you can safely desolder it from any box that has it [16:54]
asciilifeform: and render it harmless [16:54]
swiftgeek: sure [16:54]
swiftgeek: would be nice to have nicer implementation with riscv :D [16:55]
asciilifeform: cr50 however is 'glued with broken glass' [16:55]
asciilifeform: i fucking hate riscv [16:55]
asciilifeform: !#s riscv [16:55]
a111: 7 results for "riscv", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=riscv [16:55]
asciilifeform: it was designed by wreckers [16:55]
asciilifeform: and pushed under false pretenses [16:55]
swiftgeek: j2 would be fine too [16:55]
asciilifeform: it is not difficult to design a usable cpu, if you don't need bincompatibility with anything [16:56]
asciilifeform: fabrication, is the rub. [16:56]
swiftgeek: well it's already implemented in mass produced devices [16:56]
asciilifeform: other than as fpga softcore -- where ? [16:57]
swiftgeek: nvidia gpus [16:57]
asciilifeform: ahahahaha [16:57]
asciilifeform: no thx. [16:57]
swiftgeek: it's a start [16:57]
asciilifeform: it is no start. [16:57]
asciilifeform: nvidia is on same shitlist as intel [16:57]
asciilifeform: and for same reason. [16:57]
swiftgeek: sure but they will chip into contributing to toolchain [16:57]
asciilifeform: fuck riscv. it was deliberately designed with no arithmetical carry, to cripple cryptography. [16:57]
swiftgeek: how does j2 compare? :P [16:58]
asciilifeform: j2 at least has the virtue of being small, and fitting in ice40 fpga. [16:58]
swiftgeek: so does picorv32 [16:59]
asciilifeform: ( or maybe not quite fitting, but it's close ) [16:59]
asciilifeform: understand, i can have ice40 boards to fit lappy chassis roll off conveyor in 6mo, if i want. [16:59]
asciilifeform: but would like to try cleansing commercial arm64 board, first. [16:59]
asciilifeform: if none can be cleansed -- we make from scratch, yes. [17:00]
swiftgeek: yeah i was just saying about having TPM module implemented in open manner [17:00]
asciilifeform: why the FUCK would you want 'open' manacles ? [17:00]
asciilifeform: what does it even mean. [17:01]
asciilifeform: how about NO manacles. [17:01]
swiftgeek: then everything would need to be implemented properly in SoC [17:01]
hl`: no, TPMs _can_ be used to secure your own stuff if _you_ control them [17:01]
hl`: not really trustworthy if they have non-free firmware on them, but theoretically they have a use case [17:01]
asciilifeform: hl`: nope. [17:01]
swiftgeek: hl`: not exactly that case either [17:02]
asciilifeform: they're a nsa boobytrap, sold under the fraudulent pretense of 'security' [17:02]
asciilifeform: over in the civilized world, we http://trilema.com/2013/how-to-airgap-a-practical-guide/ our crypto. [17:02]
asciilifeform: no magic chips needed. [17:02]
swiftgeek: hl`: it depends on root of trust being somewhere else [17:02]
asciilifeform: whole concept of 'root of trust' is a crock of shit. [17:02]
swiftgeek: otherwise it can be pretty easily replayed [17:02]
asciilifeform: we don't pki, and we don't ssl. [17:02]
hl`: that doesn't protect against physical attacks. [17:03]
swiftgeek: hl`: you don't need physical attack there really [17:03]
asciilifeform: hl`: i am not interested in buying iron that specifically protects against everybody-but-nsa physical attack. [17:03]
asciilifeform: and i am definitely not interested in iron that protects against ~my~, the owner's, physical attack. [17:03]
asciilifeform: my machine. i read or flip whatever fucking bits i want. [17:03]
swiftgeek: hl`: if you have more devices on same bus you can figure out something to sniff it, and later replay [17:03]
swiftgeek: hl`: but OTP root of trust is not a solution either [17:04]
hl`: yes, exactly. i'm talking about the use of owner-controlled TPMs to secure against other parties. [17:04]
asciilifeform: tell me again why i would want 'tpm' if i have an airgapped 1990s machine for all computations on secrets. [17:04]
swiftgeek: hl`: especially when you think about reselling the device [17:04]
asciilifeform: you don't resell crypto hardware, you thermite it [17:05]
asciilifeform: in a barrel. [17:05]
asciilifeform: http://trilema.com/2014/spy-stuff/ << like this. [17:05]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: it depends on having root-of-trust (tpm isn't it), then it's a fun store of secrets [17:05]
asciilifeform: my 'root of trust' is iron that i assembled with own hands, out of soviet components, and sealed with glitter polish. fuck fritz tpm. [17:06]
swiftgeek: if there is no root of trust on device then it's just another layer of obfuscation [17:06]
hl`: there's not really that much point to tpms if physical attacks aren't in your threat model. if they are, they can provide resistance against evil maids, etc. [17:06]
asciilifeform: hl`: how much do you like google's tpm, which opens in 3 seconds to 'evil maid' with the magic rsa key ? [17:06]
swiftgeek: hl`: softbrick in thinkpad provides resistance against evil maids :) [17:07]
hl`: asciilifeform: completely unacceptable in my view, since it's anti-owner control. [17:07]
hl`: to be clear, any company which ships chips fused to only run their code gets a 'fuck you' from me [17:07]
asciilifeform: whole concept of 'tpm' is explicitly counter to owner control. starting from when it was called 'palladium' and pushed by ms. [17:07]
swiftgeek: hl`: 1. lock device in dock (with key), softbrick, profit [17:07]
hl`: asciilifeform: not exactly. the fundamental premise is just to measure the computing environment - this can be used to pro-owner ends if you control the tpm. [17:07]
asciilifeform: this is the fundamental fallacy that resulted in a market empty of honest iron. [17:08]
asciilifeform: if i cannot audit the contents of the device, it is impossible to prove the nonexistence of magic key. [17:08]
hl`: pretty much - agreed that TPMs with nonfree firmware (i.e. all of them which currently exist) are pretty dubious for that reason. [17:08]
swiftgeek: yep [17:09]
hl`: (especially since they have a bloody _firmware update_ capacity. !) [17:09]
asciilifeform: crypto on single-die device of modern (i.e. past 25 yrs ) manufacture, is a losing proposition. [17:09]
asciilifeform: no matter how you cut it. [17:09]
swiftgeek: hl`: we have seen plenty mask rom exploits already [17:09]
hl`: swiftgeek: hmm, can you elaborate? [17:09]
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: go and maskrom-exploit my made-in-zelenograd-in-1985 cpu. [17:09]
swiftgeek: hl`: not really, but whether medium is ro or rw it doesn't matter [17:10]
swiftgeek: it still has ram and you can exploit it [17:10]
swiftgeek: ram and cpu * [17:10]
asciilifeform: !#s specificity of diddling [17:10]
a111: 50 results for "specificity of diddling", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=specificity%20of%20diddling [17:10]
hl`: Sure. Honestly, I'm surprised nobody has managed to dump decrypted Intel microcode yet. Seems to me you could probably accomplish something with glitching. [17:10]
asciilifeform: ^ starting point for discussion. [17:10]
swiftgeek: hl`: and nobody dumped yet trackpoint code either :> [17:10]
swiftgeek: and it's just a silly 80c51 mcu [17:11]
swiftgeek: without ADC [17:11]
asciilifeform: we were discussing 'hardware which you trust to do rsa exponentiation' , neh [17:11]
asciilifeform: !!up swiftgeek [17:11]
deedbot: swiftgeek voiced for 30 minutes. [17:11]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: yep it needs to be open otherwise lol [17:11]
asciilifeform: which resolves to 1) i wrote the code 2) i know that the die was not built in advance to subvert the functionality of said code [17:11]
asciilifeform: !!up hl` [17:11]
deedbot: hl` voiced for 30 minutes. [17:11]
asciilifeform: 'open' isn't worth a sparrow's fart, per se [17:12]
asciilifeform: if you cannot determine via physical means that the proggy as-published is actually executing on the given device [17:12]
asciilifeform: it, and no other [17:12]
asciilifeform: this is physically ~impossible with e.g. 60nm [17:12]
swiftgeek: you wouldn't go below 65nm if you are sane for tpm [17:13]
swiftgeek: cost / power efficiency / tooling [17:13]
asciilifeform: speaking of all recent (sub-2uM , really) densities [17:13]
swiftgeek: and reliability /yield [17:13]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: we can go far with maskless lithography :P [17:14]
asciilifeform: let's take an example of trustworthy iron : K573RF4 ( https://eandc.ru/pdf/mikroskhema/k573rf4.pdf ) [17:14]
hl`: asciilifeform: that's actually an interesting idea - i've toyed with a similar idea previously, though for different applications. basically, my idea was to come up with some way of algorithmically generating algorithms such that the algorithm generator can know the correct answer computationally easily, but where the structure of the algorithm is highly randomised such that it resists analysis in the [17:14]
hl`: general case - basically using the halting problem as a trapdoor function. [17:14]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: those packages are expensive and cute :) [17:15]
swiftgeek: hl`: google chip fingerprinting [17:15]
asciilifeform: this is an eprom. and i've had them in physical possession long enuff to know that they weren't touched by fucking nato. and , on top of this, i can physically photo the crystal without decap. [17:15]
swiftgeek: DARPA was messing with that a lot [17:15]
hl`: i.e., you'd have to solve the halting problem to write a program which can analyse the generated programs in the general case, meaning that any computational malevolence (compromised silicon, etc.) can only compute the result of the algorithm by executing it unless someone solves the halting problem [17:15]
asciilifeform: hl`: this is a perpetuum mobile. [17:16]
swiftgeek: asciilifeform: no this is qualcomm modem code [17:16]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2015-08-12#1236209 << see also thread [17:16]
a111: Logged on 2015-08-12 17:41 ascii_field: (see also, for similar lulz, 'whitebox cryptography') [17:16]
asciilifeform: swiftgeek: yes, and it's snake oil. [17:16]
swiftgeek: to what? [17:16]
swiftgeek: everybody knows it burns eyes [17:16]
asciilifeform: it exists strictly to slightly increase the headache for reversers, and is not interesting tech from my pov [17:16]
swiftgeek: well a lot for researchers [17:17]
swiftgeek: and not at all for anyone trying to exploit it xD [17:17]
asciilifeform: at any rate there does not currently exist ANY usable crypto algo, of any purpose, for which a complexity class reduction to any class is known. [17:18]
asciilifeform: and in particular a reduction of ~every~ generated key, rather than avg case. [17:18]
asciilifeform: there is not even a proof that the difficulty of rsa is equivalent to that of factoring. [17:19]
asciilifeform: ( and there is no known complexity class pindown of factoring. ) [17:19]
asciilifeform: if anybody told you otherwise, he is a dirty liar, and probably selling snake oil. [17:19]
swiftgeek: nah i was just referring that qcom code is generating code that generates to generate code that (....) [17:20]
asciilifeform: back upthread -- discussion of 'roots of trust' WILL start with , at the very MINIMUM, iron where i can fucking see the transistors through optical microscope. and never with anything else. [17:20]
asciilifeform: any other notion of 'root of trust' is fritzian. [17:20]
swiftgeek: goldberg machine made out of code [17:21]
* asciilifeform brb, teatime [17:21]
swiftgeek: hl`: anyway only with proper root of trust you can measure all stages with tpm [17:23]
hl`: swiftgeek: yeah. [17:23]
swiftgeek: otherwise i will exploit other device on the bus and replay it remotely [17:23]
swiftgeek: and in x86 case that happens to be EC [17:24]
hl`: that's actually a fair point too. as implemented in e.g. PCs nowadays, even putting the closed firmware issues aside, the way they are integrated is _not_ secure. they're just connected using open pins to the CPU, you could easily replay everything [17:24]
swiftgeek: (or worse - ME) [17:24]
hl`: (see TPM reset attacks. the TPM specification people claim that these were fixed with TPM1.2, this is not correct however) [17:25]
swiftgeek: yep that makes it possible even with root of trust [17:25]
swiftgeek: but exploiting TPM firmware so much that it resets [17:26]
swiftgeek: and TPM implemented so poorly that it doesn't reset x86 with it [17:26]
swiftgeek: meh [17:26]
swiftgeek: anyway so far there is no root of trust implemented in SoC that respect end user [17:28]
swiftgeek: anyway that covers everything for me, i can only wait for more docs to appear (or dead boards) [17:30]
swiftgeek: bye o/ [17:30]
asciilifeform: in one ear and out the other, apparently . [17:40]
* asciilifeform apologizes to log reader for having allowed this waste of time to clutter the chan. [17:42]
asciilifeform: if anyone was puzzle re naggum's remark concerning 'read only brains' -- here they are! [17:44]
asciilifeform: *puzzled [17:44]
BingoBoingo: <hl`> that doesn't protect against physical attacks. << Buy a dog and carry a hammer [17:54]
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: somehow the derps obsess with 'wife replaced while you sleep' scenario. aaaand then go on to advocate elaborate tpmdildo that makes this scenario actually workable. [17:56]
asciilifeform: via nobus. [17:56]
asciilifeform: rotten old fungus man rms, you can say whatever about, but he was exactly on target re how this particular item will go, back in '97. first, 'it only stores keys, harmless!' ( and won't give'em up to usg Because Reasons ... ) then 'ok now it can rewrite fw' 'yer lying, they Would Never!11!!' '...' [17:59]
BingoBoingo: Well for most people, wife replaced while they sleep would probably be +EV [17:59]
asciilifeform: lol [18:00]
BingoBoingo: And with the read only brains, only hope they have is that they are interesting enough to an MP for them to recieve their exploitable crash that re-enables write access. [18:05]
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: it isn't clear to me, what, if anything, these folx wanted, other than to waste our time. [18:05]
asciilifeform: 'go to repair shop!' the cheek. [18:05]
BingoBoingo: that, or to repeat the "common" process they are sure gets done all the time. [18:06]
asciilifeform: it isn't clear that all of their derpery has to date added up to any 'gets done' [18:06]
asciilifeform: considering e.g. libreboot [18:06]
asciilifeform: and its continued derping with intel [18:06]
asciilifeform: !#s libreboot [18:07]
a111: 95 results for "libreboot", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=libreboot [18:07]
asciilifeform: ^ dun forget what they're famous for.. [18:07]
BingoBoingo: Trannygate [18:07]
asciilifeform: aaha [18:07]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1823179 << phunphakt, asciilifeform ( in ascii_butugychag period ) was a slave in precisely that bit of idiocy, sat in the peanut gallery at the derp committee, etc [18:12]
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 21:15 swiftgeek: DARPA was messing with that a lot [18:12]
asciilifeform: ( http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-15#1714991 << see also. ) [18:12]
a111: Logged on 2017-09-15 23:48 asciilifeform: kanzure: i spilled the beans from a similar darpa conference that i attended, in the heart of the beast itself, few yrs back ( it's in the l0gz, spoiler : multilinear map homomorphic crypto is bunkum ) and still waiting for gasenwagen [18:12]
asciilifeform: afaik boneh et al are still there, still pushing the same lulzoil [18:13]
BingoBoingo: Well, living in the land of Mate crackpipes you get to see this behavior taken to extremes. They are playing the game where they TRY to burn as many man hours as possible in an unproductive manner. [18:15]
BingoBoingo: Productivity is dangerous. In Uruguay the danger is raising the bar and taking away from crack pipe time. In DARPA land the dangers being fended off are myriad. [18:16]
asciilifeform: in darpa land they do what in civilized world is called 'освоение бюджета'. [18:17]
asciilifeform: (i.e. snarfing up that delish printolade like there's no tomorrow ) [18:18]
asciilifeform: each wunderwaffen has a seekrit committee , with nsa-vetted gentry, and a larger nonseekrit ('commercial'), for ladling out grantolade to academics and quasiacademics [18:19]
asciilifeform: seekrit committee generally concerned with specifics of applications (i.e. anything where you gotta know the identity of intended victim, say) [18:19]
asciilifeform: the nonseekrit -- with the bulk of the implementation detail. [18:20]
asciilifeform: upstack, observe the lulzfest, where http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1823026 and then http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1823205 demands fritz on-die in cpu ! for 'security!' [18:23]
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 20:42 hl`: I'm a longtime owner-control advocate. [18:23]
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 21:24 hl`: that's actually a fair point too. as implemented in e.g. PCs nowadays, even putting the closed firmware issues aside, the way they are integrated is _not_ secure. they're just connected using open pins to the CPU, you could easily replay everything [18:23]
asciilifeform: 'pleeeze, pleeeeeze make it secure from MY OWN HANDS!!!' [18:23]
asciilifeform: 'pleeeze make it so only obama can read with nobus key!!' [18:24]
asciilifeform: the very notion that anything whatsoever happening on a nato-produced 22nm die is 'owner controlled'... [18:28]
asciilifeform: they dun make tards, apparently even, like they used to. i swear , the tards from 10y ago were not this thick. [18:30]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1823242 << naaah BingoBoingo , see, different thing. the crack smokers for the most part only burn ~own~ time. ~these~ folx, they want to burn yours, and mine. [18:31]
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 22:15 BingoBoingo: Well, living in the land of Mate crackpipes you get to see this behavior taken to extremes. They are playing the game where they TRY to burn as many man hours as possible in an unproductive manner. [18:31]
asciilifeform: it'd be one thing if, say, google dev showed up and 'yes i'ma pgp to mircea_popescu the magic key', or even 'here's the schem'. but nooo, instead they come to 'explain' to us how 'tpm can be used to benefit you' . [18:32]
asciilifeform: because somehow this is not insulting to the intelligence of the fucking fruit fly stuck to my display. not even speaking of the l1 lordship. [18:33]
danielpbarron: crack smokers will burn any time they can get ahold of, granted they generally glob onto other cracker smokers of the have-money-to-buy-more variety [18:34]
asciilifeform: certainly. [18:35]
trinque: perhaps the compartmentalized nonsense factory is not such a strong longterm strategy [18:36]
trinque: for one, I'd expect anyone who spent enough time in one to come out the other side schizophrenic [18:36]
asciilifeform: trinque: ever meet these folx in the flesh ? [18:36]
trinque: gladly, never. [18:36]
asciilifeform: they're exactly like eichmann, perfect little marvels of industrious compartmental schizoid [18:36]
asciilifeform: usg cultivates these, from childhood [18:37]
asciilifeform: see e.g. http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822328 re their public end. [18:38]
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 01:35 asciilifeform: https://archive.li/A4vO1 << various lulz in re that famous octopus. [18:38]
asciilifeform: one autist sqeals in delight designing shutter for the drone camera, another -- the rocket proximity cap, another -- likes to draw cute little octopi etc [18:39]
asciilifeform: not 1 would be caught dead giving half a shit re what it all adds up to [18:39]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-16#1584061 << see also. [18:40]
a111: Logged on 2016-12-16 14:31 mircea_popescu: japan got buldozed chiefly because of the utterly immoral attitude of thinking people at the time. [18:40]
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo ( and other awake folx ) , plz to point future 'fact checker' i_came_from_reddit folx, to http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822821 + http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822990 etc, if i'm off in meatland [18:47]
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 19:57 asciilifeform: swiftgeek: given your introduction ( http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822589 ) i assume you may be interested in verifying fact that cr50 is not a subfunctionality of the ordinary (i.e. kept in winbond spi ) bootrom or the EC controller ('nuvoton' arm , visible in right hand of photo ). this is very simple to do: [18:47]
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 20:35 asciilifeform: so far my only clue that h1 actually runs the given fw , is that i was able to flash in a vendor update : http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-08#1821699 and ended up with a slightly different, in the ways suggested by the src, console [18:47]
asciilifeform: or better yet, if they dun show signs of a half-working brain, just !!down , dun hesitate, 'ваше слово, товарищ маузер!'(tm)(r) [18:48]
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i still find it lulzy how google apparently banked on nobody outside of their heathen pit getting hold of the fucking debug hose. [18:58]
asciilifeform: with which in 10 minutes you can verify that, yes, independent fucking fritz chip [18:58]
asciilifeform: !!up oda [18:58]
deedbot: oda voiced for 30 minutes. [18:59]
mircea_popescu: and in other news, i bought myself a meter and a half long spoon paddle. [18:59]
asciilifeform: oda: hello ? [18:59]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: sounds versatile [18:59]
mircea_popescu: hand crafted wood. dood was beffudled, didn't really even want to sell it to me. "it's for ovens". [18:59]
oda: Hi, just got here after reading the cr50 article on loper-os [18:59]
oda: Just wanted to lurk a bit and see what sort of chat goes on here [19:00]
asciilifeform: oda: you will definitely want to read the log ( http://btcbase.org/log/ ) and use the search box. [19:00]
mircea_popescu: mostly terrorism and sexual perversion. [19:01]
oda: asciilifeform: thanks, will do. [19:01]
asciilifeform: oda: you can start with today's , let's say from http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822562 point, the last set of cr50 people [19:01]
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 18:59 deedbot: |\n voiced for 30 minutes. [19:01]
mircea_popescu: except for alf, he's militantly anti-technical. [19:01]
asciilifeform: more or less!11 [19:01]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'm picturing the archaetypical baba yaga scoop [19:03]
mircea_popescu: just about, but flat. perfect buttwarmer. [19:03]
asciilifeform: http://volshebstvo.in.ua/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/baba-yaga-pech.jpg << for ref. [19:03]
* asciilifeform bbl,meat [19:04]
oda: !!register pubkey-url https://tiuxo.com/Brian%20Clemens.asc [19:06]
deedbot: Provide a paste URL to the ascii-armored GPG public key or the full 40 character key fingerprint without spaces or dashes. [19:06]
mircea_popescu: and in other fuck-this-failed-civilisation, NO SHOP in all the fucking town had a proper beach towel. the chinese overlords have decided all towels must be up to 1/3 size and that's it. "i want a towel king bed size" "you mean sheets ?" "no dood. towel." "here's the towels." "these are small." [19:07]
mircea_popescu: eventually went to specialist store, bought 3 meters of double-width towel substance, had them rodeando it. 3 * 3500 + 3000 for the work = ~30 bux. now i have a proper beach towel, can seat five. [19:07]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822546 << it's sorta like naming yourself Brick Curb, but hey, if that's what you actually want... [19:13]
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 18:33 apt-get: rude tbh, I've been using this one online for quite some time [19:13]
mircea_popescu: then again alf almost sounds like an anime character, doesn't seem to have hurt him any. [19:14]
mircea_popescu: o wow, that reminds me [19:14]
mircea_popescu: !#s "bee" "dog" [19:15]
a111: 114 results for "\"bee\" \"dog\"", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=%22bee%22%20%22dog%22 [19:15]
danielpbarron: oda, also the true word of God [19:15]
mircea_popescu: !#s "alfer" [19:15]
a111: 67 results for "\"alfer\"", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=%22alfer%22 [19:15]
mircea_popescu: hey Mocky : http://btcbase.org/log/2016-02-24#1413916 kinda lamost promises a case for saying alfer character ~is based on~ alf! [19:18]
a111: Logged on 2016-02-24 04:23 mircea_popescu: omfg alf sees the world like a bee-dog : in black and white and all pixelated. [19:18]
mircea_popescu: as the whole bee-dog has been a thing for all these many years. [19:18]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822555 << why do you think so ? [19:20]
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 18:37 apt-get: the reason I keep using this nick is because it's quite handy to have personal info drowned out in a sea of noise when someone tries to look it up [19:20]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822571 << are we talking, bipedal or quadripedal ? [19:22]
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 19:01 trinque: one might, say, introduce himself, like even my cat does when he walks into the room [19:22]
mircea_popescu: oda, try putting it in p.bvulpes.com that tiuxo site uses some ssh bullshit / isn't on the web. [19:26]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822579 << you'd be surprised how narrow that set actually is. [19:26]
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 19:05 |\n: apart from things unspeakable on freenode i love to bring up tor relays and i got a job as an admin of shitty place [19:26]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822603 << for the record, that made absolutely no sense. [19:29]
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 19:14 |\n: even if something is not clear - hardware is full of shit, supplying any trust towards vendors is as stupid as saying that someone might now have some private keys from whatever, being it an IT or automotive industry (pick any), i believe that is why some papers on standards that might shed light on ways of how proprietary things (that belong to owners) work [19:29]
mircea_popescu: !!up oda [19:29]
deedbot: oda voiced for 30 minutes. [19:29]
oda: mircea_popescu: I got it working with the paste site in the deedbot help site. Also that tiuxo site is my site. Cloudflare filtering might have denied deedbot, I filter out China / Russia / Korea and a few useragent strings I was getting a lot of weird traffic from [19:30]
mircea_popescu: we don't generally support the idiocy known as https, so merely you not serving http may put you outside of the web. [19:30]
mircea_popescu: not to mention the whole pile of shit that's cloudflare. [19:30]
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Well Google probably didn't exact anyone to care to look [19:30]
mircea_popescu: see http://trilema.com/2016/please-stop-using-dns-already-and-other-considerations/ to get an idea where the republic's coming from re all this "convenience" and web n.0 bs. [19:31]
oda: jej, so this is a cat-v type crowd? [19:31]
mircea_popescu: actually... worse. [19:32]
mircea_popescu: in fact, there was a collision at some point, where was it... [19:32]
oda: not that there's anything wrong with that. just that my convictions regarding software choices are a bit more moderate [19:32]
mircea_popescu: here : http://trilema.com/2016/cat-vorg-adnotated/ [19:32]
mircea_popescu: tldr : cat-v was a bunch of dorks collected around a chosen kid, trying to do things. chosen kid died and they turned to scar tissue. [19:33]
mircea_popescu: different from, say, comp.lang.lisp archive in that a) their chosen kid wasn't naggum and b) they actually had gathered around properly, as opposed to the idiots on bbs, captive in their self-important notions of independence and other man-alone-isms. [19:36]
danielpbarron: i once triggered a guy to the point of thinking he might have his first fist fight, over anti-ssl, till his friend dragged him away [19:36]
oda: I enjoy following nerd drama but I try to stay out of arguments. Only one in recent memory was a bunch of people calling me an idiot for swapping on zram (which I kind of have to do on my shitty netbook) [19:38]
mircea_popescu: who cares about ram ? [19:40]
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron, was this at burning geek ? [19:40]
danielpbarron: lol yes [19:42]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822645 << this is retarded. [19:43]
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 19:22 swiftgeek: asciilifeform: i'm only speaking about doing it once in history xD [19:43]
danielpbarron: i was wearing my openbsd shirt that read "Keep calm and abandon OpenSSL" [19:43]
mircea_popescu: we're not here to try and convince mommy that we're cool kids. we're here to fuck her in the ass until it prolapses, and leave her chained to a pole in the park where all the used needles are. [19:43]
mircea_popescu: because we don't love her secretly. we hate her, and quite fucking plainly. [19:44]
danielpbarron: guy says "and replace it with what??" to which I said "idk, libreSSL, but i'm not really a fan of ssl in general" [19:44]
mircea_popescu: lol. [19:44]
danielpbarron: and he flipped out, started accusing me of working with the enemy, got all shaky and had to be literally dragged away [19:44]
mircea_popescu: really, replace it with nothing. ssl is a braindead answer to a malformed question nobody asked. [19:45]
mircea_popescu: http is a ~stateless~ protocol. you need state, do something else. no, there may not be such a thing as a "website login", not anymore than there can be a planesubmarine. [19:45]
danielpbarron: speaking of the buring geek, bitcoin is (i suspect) a banned word/topic [19:46]
danielpbarron: it's "crypto" now [19:46]
danielpbarron: as in, anything else, just not bitcoin, that thing i told them years ago they shouldn't be spending on hotdogs and coffee [19:47]
mircea_popescu: well, they're the kids with no clue or skill, hoping to eat off the usg's printouts. what's to expect. [19:47]
danielpbarron: what i expected has come to fruition, nobody who would attend such an event can afford to buy bitcoin anymore [19:47]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822648 << can you step back from your own insanity, and look at how they fucked your head ? really, you're going to go through your entire life "taking lessons", ie not doing anything, because that's what they made you do it at the child abuse camp they call college ? and then what, you'll be 80 and dying on a borrowed mattress, and... what ? you'll have had all these lessons you "took" ? wh [19:48]
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 19:23 swiftgeek: asciilifeform: the point is to take some lessons from that 1 unit [19:48]
mircea_popescu: ere the fuck did you take them ? [19:48]
mircea_popescu: you took nothing. start ~ACTUALLY~ taking. heads on pikes. [19:49]
danielpbarron: they have some app exibitors can use to promote where they'll be and what they are serving (i reserved a vendor campsite specifically for the purpose of provoking conversation about the Bible) -- i also mention in my "profile" that i'm a lord in the most serene republic of Bitcoin, which mysteriously gets removed. I add it again, removed again. They apparently don't mind a religious "cult" but not [19:54]
danielpbarron: of the bitcoin variety [19:54]
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron, should be a pretty decent heuristic indicator for you. one of the two things you're in is going somewhere, according to the beast. [19:55]
ben_vulpes: heh tmsr shadowbanned even at bm [19:55]
ben_vulpes: write it up, danielpbarron ! [19:55]
danielpbarron: i'm working on an article that suggests otherwise, porcfest is too small a thing to go to such existential lengths [19:56]
mircea_popescu: heh. [19:56]
danielpbarron: they placed me next to the celebritarian muslim guy. idk if coincidence, but i'm glad -- the guy will be serving food, and food vendors attract all the foot traffic [19:59]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822678 << teenager looking for somewhere to teenage today, if it wasn't evident. [20:01]
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 19:29 asciilifeform: swiftgeek: out of curiosity, what's your interest in this particular box ? [20:01]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822694 << jesus fuck how fucking braindead can you get! let ~everyone else~ not use fucking computers, holy shit. there's a reason http://trilema.com/2016/the-megawatt-standard/ already! [20:04]
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 19:31 swiftgeek: using e-waste for research pretty much lowers amount of it [20:04]
mircea_popescu: waste is the most important signal of social hierarchy. that's what it's fucking for. [20:04]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822702 << being worked on, but so far seems alf is actually exactly right, whitelabel arm cortex. [20:06]
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 19:33 |\n: any intel on supply chain of this stone? had to ask [20:06]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822705 << not so far identified. [20:07]
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 19:33 |\n: any other devices with the extra similar one (even with brushed label)? [20:07]
BingoBoingo: Seriously 1. People who make lots of trash 2. people who make some trash 3. People who collect trash with donkey carts 4. People who collect trash with trash bags 5. People who sleep in trash [20:08]
mircea_popescu: not even bad for a first approx! [20:08]
BingoBoingo: The structures that become part of your reality in the bananastan too cold for growing bananas [20:09]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822727 << idem. [20:12]
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 19:37 asciilifeform: personally, i'd consider a box with no trackpad function, to be usable [20:12]
BingoBoingo: The trash mining sector of the economy here is probably the third largest behind Tourism and Agriculture depending on the order those two sort themselves into. [20:12]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-12#1823382 << i accidentally nuked the trackpad on my current test unit, so i got this!11 [20:15]
a111: Logged on 2018-06-12 00:12 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822727 << idem. [20:15]
asciilifeform: ( btw when it's Trooly Cured i'ma put it up for auction, mircea_popescu-style ) [20:15]
asciilifeform: 'rapebook ser no 0001' or such. [20:16]
mircea_popescu: haha cool. [20:16]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-12#1823375 << except, it ain't a proper arm cortex, but a softcore-arm in (metallization)fpga. cuz i suspect somebody read the Logz re specificity-of-diddling [20:18]
a111: Logged on 2018-06-12 00:06 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822702 << being worked on, but so far seems alf is actually exactly right, whitelabel arm cortex. [20:18]
asciilifeform: ( picture, an imp of satan actually reading and learning sumthin' ) [20:19]
mircea_popescu: "whitelabel", how'd you call it ? [20:19]
asciilifeform: well 'whitelabel arm' implies a proper physical one with the engraving sanded off. which i suspect this one is emphatically not. [20:19]
mircea_popescu: custom metallization of cortex arm ? [20:20]
asciilifeform: this one is something like a xilinx but with metal rom instead of the usual LUT rom. [20:20]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is a pestilentially-common product arm co licenses the .verilog [20:20]
mircea_popescu: "the thing they'll do for you if you buy 100k" ? [20:20]
asciilifeform: and you stuff it into a fpga with a couplae custom periphs [20:20]
asciilifeform: right. [20:20]
asciilifeform: i found the custom periph btw, or at least 1 of them [20:20]
asciilifeform: it's the usb tty [20:20]
asciilifeform: the tpm bullshit doesn't seem to use much (or any) custom logic, the crypto is in the c src [20:21]
mircea_popescu: cheaper that way [20:22]
asciilifeform: https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/platform/ec/+/master/chip/g/hw_regdefs.h << register list ( warning: coupla MB ! ) [20:22]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822805 << wait, wairt, you got that ?! [20:22]
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 19:52 asciilifeform: thus far i know how to cut power to it, and this suffices for my purpose [20:22]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: yep. but see the caveat in $thread. [20:23]
mircea_popescu: wait, this is major. [20:23]
asciilifeform: aside from that, this is almost the perfect mircea_popescu lappy in this one respect : the 802.11 card is on own little dildo corner of pcb, you could prolly remove it with a saw. [20:24]
asciilifeform: and have the box still run. [20:24]
asciilifeform: see the pcb photos from earlier today. [20:24]
mircea_popescu: heh [20:24]
mircea_popescu: so major progress after all ? [20:24]
asciilifeform: not on cr50 [20:24]
asciilifeform: the rest of the box is pretty simple matter, in comparison [20:24]
asciilifeform: ( rk3399 is a bog-standard rockchip, very similar to the one in pizarro pilot plant, but with 6 cores instead of 4 ) [20:25]
mircea_popescu: wait, wait. did you get the power or didn't you ? what are we talking about here ? [20:25]
asciilifeform: as in , did physically test yet ? nope [20:25]
asciilifeform: just found the wire. [20:26]
mircea_popescu: but your objection to "just hammer the damned thing off the board" was "won't be able to power up, controls the 3v line". and now you found bypass ? [20:26]
asciilifeform: WIRELESS_GPIO_WLAN_POWER in vendor's turd. [20:26]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: we're talking about different chips [20:26]
mircea_popescu: mmmm [20:26]
asciilifeform: hammer objection was in re cr50, this massive toad that sits in the middle of the board b/w errything and damn near errything else [20:27]
asciilifeform: wireless is the little iron shielded box in the corner, the thing 1 of the earlier folx referred to as 'm2' [20:27]
asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/c101pa/mb_top.jpg << in far upper right. [20:27]
mircea_popescu: alright. [20:27]
asciilifeform: with the black sma cable. [20:27]
mircea_popescu: i got excited. [20:28]
asciilifeform: lol [20:28]
mircea_popescu: this log is painful to fucking read. [20:28]
asciilifeform: it is, innit [20:28]
* mircea_popescu is tempted to ask this tard to not show up again. [20:29]
asciilifeform: i have hard time picturing him showing up again [20:29]
asciilifeform: either him or the other 'tpm is good for you' d00d [20:29]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1823343 << picture this, monkey man actually thought asciilifeform is a neet , satisfied with idea of hand-diddling 1 quasi-working,opensores-style box [20:31]
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 23:43 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822645 << this is retarded. [20:31]
asciilifeform: 'look ma i have linuxbios' [20:31]
mircea_popescu: i need a unicode for the new york jew handwave. [20:32]
mircea_popescu: *baaaaah* [20:32]
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> i need a unicode for the new york jew handwave. << Gaza http://qntra.net/2018/06/israeli-knesset-quietly-disqualifies-equality-bill-maintain-the-jewish-majority-even-if-it-violates-rights/ [20:32]
mircea_popescu: lol [20:33]
BingoBoingo: | << Pictogram [20:33]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1823338 << they have a 'seekoority is what comes in ssl bottle, it's how we seekoore our tor darkmarketrons' idiocy stack baked into their hindbrains [20:34]
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 23:36 danielpbarron: i once triggered a guy to the point of thinking he might have his first fist fight, over anti-ssl, till his friend dragged him away [20:34]
asciilifeform: generally speaking incurably [20:34]
mircea_popescu: i dunno all that much work was put into curing. [20:34]
asciilifeform: because multilayer psychosis ultimately rooted in 'mother will provide me with what to suckle' wedge. [20:34]
mircea_popescu: perhaps. [20:34]
asciilifeform: cure, if indeed possible, has to begin there. [20:35]
asciilifeform: far even from computer. [20:35]
asciilifeform: what is 'pki'ism even, if not 'from ur-mother will the blessed milk flow down' [20:35]
Mocky: i was into tor, dark markets. now cured [20:36]
danielpbarron: i didn't have time to explain. he triggered quickly [20:36]
mircea_popescu: Mocky, what did it ? [20:37]
asciilifeform: Mocky: we had a fella coupla yrs ago, Framedragger, who struggled with the disease and in the end relapsed. [20:37]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, just because disappeared does not in fact mean relapsed. [20:37]
asciilifeform: hard to say for certain. [20:37]
asciilifeform: i suspect strongly -- relapsed. [20:37]
Mocky: was cured first time i saw 'yeah this dns exploit reveals everything' immediately saw whole things as crock of shit [20:37]
danielpbarron: it's a common reaction from those who know they aren't in the know to those who think they are, that my perscsription is bunk [20:37]
mircea_popescu: Mocky, could we then say there was nothing there to cure in the first place ? [20:38]
Mocky: i suppose idiocy not baked into hindbrain [20:39]
mircea_popescu: this is the problem. education only ever succeds on some and never on others, in which case what sort of technology is it, really. [20:39]
mircea_popescu: i wouldn't be impressed with gravel mill that only milled some gravels. [20:39]
mircea_popescu: nor would i call it a gravel mill. [20:39]
asciilifeform: depends what means 'some', neh. if it handily spits out diamonds, say... [20:40]
Mocky: unless sorting is part of 'education succeeds' [20:40]
mircea_popescu: just because it's useful dun mean it's a tech. [20:40]
asciilifeform: Mocky: it's the ~only part. [20:40]
mircea_popescu: Mocky, but classification and engineering are distinct vocations. [20:41]
asciilifeform: all engineering begins with classification. ( see also http://btcbase.org/log/2016-01-19#1377640 ) [20:41]
a111: Logged on 2016-01-19 21:55 ascii_butugychag: the whole point of engineering is to cut apart the happenstance-linked crud from what you actually want. [20:41]
mircea_popescu: true. [20:41]
mircea_popescu: and all medicine with washing. washing, still not medicine. [20:41]
asciilifeform: sure [20:41]
mircea_popescu: hence http://trilema.com/2014/modern-medicine-and-the-benefits-of-democracy/ [20:42]
BingoBoingo: <Mocky> i suppose idiocy not baked into hindbrain << What you described happening to you was light coming on in a dark place letting you see. It is an absence phenonmenon. Nothing inherently bad. [20:42]
BingoBoingo: The redditards have a pathology. A presence of something anti-useful [20:42]
asciilifeform: washing aint fine culinary art, either, but picture cook who does not wash instruments. [20:42]
asciilifeform: ( not necessarily with own hands, but at all ) [20:42]
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo, even that much is not clear. [20:43]
mircea_popescu: dog that doesn't learn speech doesn't so much have a pathology as a dogology. [20:43]
BingoBoingo: Plenty of dogs understand speech even if they suck at generating it [20:44]
BingoBoingo: Dogology is having a different set of dog lights [20:44]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1823362 << i was never able to arise myself to visit this lulzfest, and now beginning to think that i didn't miss much [20:45]
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 23:54 danielpbarron: they have some app exibitors can use to promote where they'll be and what they are serving (i reserved a vendor campsite specifically for the purpose of provoking conversation about the Bible) -- i also mention in my "profile" that i'm a lord in the most serene republic of Bitcoin, which mysteriously gets removed. I add it again, removed again. They apparently don't mind a religious "cult" but not [20:45]
asciilifeform: !!up loper_os_cr50 [20:45]
deedbot: loper_os_cr50 voiced for 30 minutes. [20:45]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, unless you're looking for confused teeny cunt, you never miss much by missing the congregations of confused teeny cunt. [20:45]
asciilifeform: loper_os_cr50: lemme guess, clicked on link by accident ? [20:45]
asciilifeform: ha. [20:45]
mircea_popescu: ok, i'm skipping the rest of this swiftgeek barf, it's indigestible. [20:46]
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> asciilifeform, unless you're looking for confused teeny cunt, you never miss much by missing the congregations of confused teeny cunt. << And for that alf needs to do Uruguay delivery runs during the summer. [20:46]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: can cut to the verdict, if you like, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1823215 . [20:46]
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 21:40 asciilifeform: in one ear and out the other, apparently . [20:46]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1823026 << this sort of statement would be so much more useful/important/noteworthy/actually existent if it came in the form of "i'm the guy from $X, long term so and so". where $X doesn't have to be a "our words are backed by nuclear weapons" state. can even be a blog. a dogshed. SOMETHING. but something specifically and identifiably existent. [20:48]
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 20:42 hl`: I'm a longtime owner-control advocate. [20:48]
danielpbarron: asciilifeform, you certainly missed 0. it was only fun for me for as long as there were easy drugs and poker, and now going forward, because they will let me openly preach along side Darwin Fish [20:48]
mircea_popescu: because otherwise, really, the thing you "identify as" at parties bears no meaning and no interest, for us as for the chicks that don't come with you to your records collection. [20:48]
asciilifeform: i was thinking also, 'advocate' where, in local bierhaus ? [20:49]
mircea_popescu: we don't get to know, do we. [20:49]
asciilifeform: apparentlynot [20:49]
danielpbarron: i don't think they could have turned me down even if my aim was to represent the republic tho. 700 USD or whatever for a vendor spot. [20:49]
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron, if you represent the republic, do me a favour and hire a half dozen strippers to be mostly naked, will you. [20:49]
danielpbarron: can't do that [20:50]
BingoBoingo: Why? [20:50]
mircea_popescu: none of this "bitcoin embassy" buncha pasty ass bois bitpay's been doing [20:50]
danielpbarron: they probably have a free spot left -- the rest of you are welcome to try [20:50]
danielpbarron: i cannot personally be responsible for such a thing [20:50]
mircea_popescu: what, hiring strippers ? [20:51]
danielpbarron: yes that [20:51]
mircea_popescu: i didn't sday hookers, did i ? don't tell me nudity is ungodly ?! [20:52]
danielpbarron: i can't tell you that [20:52]
mircea_popescu: if god wanted people dressed he'd have made them that way. [20:52]
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> if god wanted people dressed he'd have made them that way. << You forget the Mayogendered. Dressed in yeast [20:53]
mircea_popescu: fermentationclad! [20:53]
danielpbarron: there are prohibitions against nudity, but they pertain to family relations [20:53]
Mocky: hire strippers and dress them in fig leaves [20:53]
danielpbarron: nontheless, it would offend my brothers and sisters to do such a thing [20:54]
mircea_popescu: ahahaha epic idea! [20:54]
Mocky: have em share an apple [20:55]
danielpbarron: (the fruit of the knowledge of good an evil was never descsribed as being an apple) [20:55]
mircea_popescu: grow the apple in the shape of a bitcoin... [20:55]
Mocky: danielpbarron, i've spoken those words so many times, lol [20:55]
Mocky: now i just make apple jokes [20:56]
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron, it's mostly a medieval conceit. had to display it as something. you ever saw the dog-like elephant i linked once ? [20:56]
BingoBoingo: <danielpbarron> nontheless, it would offend my brothers and sisters to do such a thing << Come to Uruguay. Live here six months. Hire girls you would have though good looking when you arrived, but because of their deep cultural failings you now view as well dressed more fuckable goats. [20:56]
danielpbarron: probably but i don't remember [20:56]
mircea_popescu: medieval minds gave a lot of funny coats to things. [20:56]
BingoBoingo: Swedish lions [20:56]
asciilifeform: !#s sea bishop [20:57]
a111: 0 results for "sea bishop", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=sea%20bishop [20:57]
asciilifeform: hmm [20:57]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1823103 << even worse if they have usg's rsa keys in them. [20:58]
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 21:01 hl`: not really trustworthy if they have non-free firmware on them, but theoretically they have a use case [20:58]
asciilifeform: ( 'sea bishop' lives in 16th c. http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-08#1537294 ) [20:58]
a111: Logged on 2016-09-08 16:03 asciilifeform: pretty lulzy, motherfucking 16TH CENTURY b00k, is NOWHERE on the net. [20:58]
asciilifeform: ambroise pare. [20:58]
danielpbarron: i've seen and met plenty of good looking but am no stranger to later learning they are no good, but in my case because of lack of belief [20:58]
BingoBoingo: danielpbarron: This isn't lack of belief in their heads so much as lack of life [20:59]
danielpbarron: same to me [21:00]
BingoBoingo: I suspect the level of human dysfunction we are encountering is different. Thankfully my problem is alleviated by saner girls importing themselves here from Northern South America because "land of opportunity" [21:04]
BingoBoingo: And if that well ever went dry here, going full Pashtun is always an option [21:04]
BingoBoingo: Sleep in the hills with blanket, kalash, and a local goat-girl [21:05]
mircea_popescu: lmao [21:06]
mod6: evenin' [21:06]
* mod6 catches up [21:06]
asciilifeform: ohai mod6 [21:07]
danielpbarron: hi mod6 [21:07]
BingoBoingo: Welcome back mod6 [21:07]
Mocky: BingoBoingo, what's full pashtun? [21:08]
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1823317 << the tiny furry bastard. has a whole greeting protocol, consistent vocalizations, says his name by way of butthole display. worlds beyond what these derps consider communication when they arrive. [21:08]
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 23:22 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822571 << are we talking, bipedal or quadripedal ? [21:08]
mircea_popescu: o.O [21:09]
mircea_popescu: this is a pretty cool cat, tbh. [21:09]
asciilifeform: verily [21:09]
asciilifeform: i have 1 of these here ( well, a part-timer ) [21:09]
asciilifeform: also has handshake protocol. [21:09]
BingoBoingo: Mocky: The simple life of freedom visible in certain tribes. [21:10]
BingoBoingo: It's one way to go nativ [21:10]
BingoBoingo: You can also go full Teuton, full eskimo [21:11]
mircea_popescu: !!up dw [21:11]
deedbot: dw voiced for 30 minutes. [21:11]
mircea_popescu: Mocky, pashtun is this word for tribesmen inhabiting the place empires go to die (afghanistan) [21:12]
BingoBoingo: It however is impossible to go "full Charrúa" because they Uruguayos of all people genocided them under General Fructuoso Rivera before mass immigration of Italian trashpeople ruined Cisplatine culture [21:15]
asciilifeform: bahahaha i found the factory test mode pin [21:18]
mircea_popescu: ya! [21:18]
asciilifeform: well at least in theory [21:18]
BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-29#1592658 [21:18]
a111: Logged on 2016-12-29 18:40 asciilifeform: not everybody wants to be involved with mega-empires, on the giving or on the receiving end. in that light, the pashtun mountains are every bit a 'high-tech' deterrent as a SAM battery. [21:18]
asciilifeform: still gotta physically get ~to~ it [21:18]
asciilifeform: https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/platform/ec/+/master/board/cr50/board.c#1453 << subj, ftr [21:19]
mircea_popescu: holy shit this mgiht be the most infuriating log since we're logging. [21:19]
* mircea_popescu now understands what alf feels when coming to machine after n hours of mp entertaining idiots. [21:20]
asciilifeform: verily it goes beyond, aha, 'entomological interest' and into 'plague of locusts' [21:20]
Mocky: worse that when it was raining trucker tits?? [21:20]
trinque: tell you what, those trucker tits tightened my txn-hucking loop into the minutes scale. can't even complain. [21:21]
BingoBoingo: <Mocky> worse that when it was raining trucker tits?? << That wasn't so bad. I got to listen to alf complain about that with my ears in real time. [21:22]
mircea_popescu: Mocky, somehow i didn't mind that so much. [21:36]
asciilifeform: !!up loper_os_cr50 [21:38]
deedbot: loper_os_cr50 voiced for 30 minutes. [21:38]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1823228 << i believe this is more like it. [21:38]
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 22:06 BingoBoingo: that, or to repeat the "common" process they are sure gets done all the time. [21:38]
Mocky: "Looking at cleavage is like looking at the sun. You don't stare at it. It's too risky. Ya get a sense of it and then you look away." [21:39]
mircea_popescu: if you go hang out on highschool campus, a very infuriating process of cockteasing may well be the norm. [21:39]
mircea_popescu: Mocky, you should have seen what mah escort was wearing today. [21:39]
mircea_popescu: lotta drool everywhere. [21:39]
Mocky: speaking of drool, i saw a moron at the gym today balancing a water bottle on his head while chatting up a chic. almost got a pic [21:40]
mircea_popescu: not a bad trick... [21:43]
mircea_popescu: saw an old woman balancing a sack on her head while looking in a shop window. ~split the diff ? [21:43]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1823258 << yeah, this "i'll live on my own terms" bs is pretty fucking outrageous, isn't it. [21:45]
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 22:32 asciilifeform: it'd be one thing if, say, google dev showed up and 'yes i'ma pgp to mircea_popescu the magic key', or even 'here's the schem'. but nooo, instead they come to 'explain' to us how 'tpm can be used to benefit you' . [21:45]
asciilifeform: sooo apparently we want to pull ~up~ pin B4, which is 'pin 10 of port 0' , wherever the fuck that physically is. [21:46]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1823266 << i've seen it also it's something else. [21:46]
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 22:36 asciilifeform: they're exactly like eichmann, perfect little marvels of industrious compartmental schizoid [21:46]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, i don't expect pulling up all the pins one at a time will brick the machine, do you ? [21:47]
asciilifeform: academic, there's no simple way to get to most of'em [21:47]
asciilifeform: but somehow i suspect that 'b4' is one of the pads. [21:47]
asciilifeform: ( either that or it's a sad and unrouted ball entirely ) [21:48]
asciilifeform: and can then only be reached with drill [21:48]
mircea_popescu: maybe a low power xray shot would actually be worth it, see if there's any lone balls. [21:48]
mircea_popescu: and any way to drill to them cleanly [21:48]
asciilifeform: ther's a pulldown enabled on it, so that will give basic litmus re whether we found [21:48]
mircea_popescu: even better. [21:49]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: why do you suppose i asked for xray, lol, earlier today. [21:49]
mircea_popescu: i suspected something like this. but now i see it. [21:49]
asciilifeform: eh drilling cleanly is 'easy', ever seen the tool, clockmaker's drill [21:49]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, only if you know which way to go. [21:49]
asciilifeform: no motor, nuffing, just picture little screwdriver with drill tip. [21:49]
mircea_popescu: aha. [21:49]
asciilifeform: and yes. [21:49]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1823278 << same old http://trilema.com/2014/pushing-the-soft-tender-flesh-of-a-friend-against-the-sharp-rotating-blades-of-the-immutable-machine/#selection-47.1-47.53 problem. [21:52]
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 22:58 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i still find it lulzy how google apparently banked on nobody outside of their heathen pit getting hold of the fucking debug hose. [21:52]
mircea_popescu: there's enough material here to make 15 usg."tech" "task forces". [21:52]
mircea_popescu: most of the extant ones consist of a subunitary mancount. [21:52]
asciilifeform: in disappointing noose, no soft zap -- include/tpm_vendor_cmds.h: VENDOR_CC_RESET_FACTORY = 38 cmd dunwork, result is extension_route_command: handler 22 not found , they closed the hole ( detain in https://archive.li/pEWsr ) [21:54]
mircea_popescu: maybe. [21:54]
asciilifeform: unrelated to the b4 pin thing [21:55]
asciilifeform: this was the 'soft' reset-to-factory , at some point presumably worked ( their 'gsctool' thing, supports sending it ) [21:55]
asciilifeform: originally this made you pull out the battery to prove that you opened the box, etc. [21:56]
asciilifeform: then they pulled the bait-and-switch and properly shat on the 'owner can cleanse' conceit. [21:56]
asciilifeform: ( homo redditicus still thinks 'hey i own the box' because pulling battery lets you rewrite the cpu's boot rom ) [21:57]
asciilifeform: for now that part worx [21:57]
asciilifeform: and while we're at it, vendor cmd 34 (open ccd) also dead [21:58]
mircea_popescu: tbh i find this entire "can't turn off" bs as the originating quanta of offense. [22:00]
mircea_popescu: no ownership interest in any machine that has always-on components can be said to ever transfer, or in any other way vest in anyone besides the manufacturer. [22:00]
asciilifeform: ( when same cmd send via slave spi -- cr50 uart spews forth 'CCD is disabled in this image' . yep, disabled until usg key signs 'upgrade', verily ) [22:00]
mircea_popescu: my slaves are my slaves because i can kill them whenever i feel like and my computers my computers because i can turn them off. [22:01]
asciilifeform: well can turn whole thing off, but solely by discharging or pulling the battery [22:01]
asciilifeform: and the drm crapola of course picks up where it left off, it writes to flash [22:01]
asciilifeform: soo, 'gpioget' cmd : http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/A7OwA/?raw=true << worx and reports voltages of named gpio matrix pins [22:10]
asciilifeform: incl 'DIOB4' [22:10]
asciilifeform: ( as can be seen in the paste, shows '0' ) [22:10]
asciilifeform: for extra lulz, this box is ~off~ presently, while i talk to its cr50 [22:11]
asciilifeform: 1 battery charge can run cr50 for coupla wks, seems like [22:11]
asciilifeform: ( they clocked it waaay down, it runs at something like 16Mhz ) [22:12]
mircea_popescu: this is pretty reasonable. doesn't have to be fast [22:41]
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> this log is painful to fucking read. << indeed [22:46]
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> ok, i'm skipping the rest of this swiftgeek barf, it's indigestible. << i sloged through it :D [22:46]
mircea_popescu: anything good ? [22:47]
mircea_popescu: in other lulz / other dead things, https://www.shoemoney.com/ completely forgotten. nobody gives a shiot even about his cheapass bitcoin bait. [22:48]
mod6: <+BingoBoingo> <mircea_popescu> if god wanted people dressed he'd have made them that way. << You forget the Mayogendered. Dressed in yeast << lol [22:48]
mod6: dafaq [22:49]
mod6: that was supposed to be 2 lines, my bad [22:49]
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> holy shit this mgiht be the most infuriating log since we're logging. << it's up there [22:51]
asciilifeform: aaand i found the maker [22:53]
asciilifeform: TSMC [22:53]
asciilifeform: ( taiwan semiconductor manuf. co. ltd. ) [22:54]
mod6: ! [22:54]
mod6: nice [22:54]
asciilifeform: dun do much, tho [22:54]
mod6: and i finally digested this turdbag of a log [22:54]
asciilifeform: i mean, they're world's largest , supposedly, foundry. [22:55]
asciilifeform: so this doesn't exactly narrow down what the base fpga was. [22:55]
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> anything good ? << not really, mildly entertaining watching alf NOT lose his shit talking to guy for who knows how long. [22:57]
Mocky: ahahaha shoemoney and his mfa check for $130k made out to 'nextpimp', man what a decade [23:03]
asciilifeform: soo they ~did~ put oddball crypto logic in the fpga, e.g. https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/platform/ec/+/master/chip/g/dcrypto/dcrypto_runtime.c#40 drives it [23:45]
asciilifeform: seems to have various nonsensical noise countermeasures against timing sidechannel, etc [23:46]
asciilifeform: 'inserter of random nops' and the like. [23:46]
asciilifeform: loox like this part only does hashing and aes [23:52]
asciilifeform: rsa, ecc still 'in software' [23:52]
Category : Logs  | Silence so far.