Forum logs for 29 Mar 2017

Monday, 16 March, Year 12 d.Tr. | Author:
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> where exactly does it work reliably. << AMD E350 board works splendidly [00:21]
mircea_popescu: some of the new microfibers aren't bad. [01:51]
mircea_popescu: !!key pablosanchez [01:51]
deedbot: [01:51]
deedbot: << » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski - Canadian Economic [Bitcoin] Nodes? More like Canadian Derpatronic Altcoin Hoes. [02:07]
ben_vulpes: [02:13]
ben_vulpes: the waves are just [02:13]
ben_vulpes: very /large/ [02:13]
mircea_popescu: o wow, 6-7 meters high huh [02:14]
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in romantic dinners, [02:27]
ben_vulpes: now tickle her feet [02:27]
mircea_popescu: no mercy, huh [02:27]
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski lol what the fuck. canadian bitcoin orange revolution!! [02:32]
mircea_popescu: "we represent the whole world*!!!" * as understood by whatever 3rd echelon bureaucrat in the us dept of our democracy that "handles" "canada". [02:33]
ben_vulpes: << ho ho ho stumbled over this personally relevant gem looking for something else entirely... [02:47]
a111: Logged on 2015-07-02 21:36 phf: mircea_popescu: i'll keep that i mind. i'd like to give it a try, but i still have memories of tedium and despair from last time i tried building a crystal space project on mac [02:47]
mircea_popescu: lel [02:48]
mircea_popescu: didja get blender to stand up yet ? [02:48]
ben_vulpes: not yet, no [02:49]
mircea_popescu: / [02:49]
ben_vulpes: thick thick trenchfoot [02:49]
mircea_popescu: son of a bitch. wtf is its current problem ? [02:50]
ben_vulpes: on one iteration it popped an x11 window and then segfaulted! [02:50]
mircea_popescu: are you doing it for the mac ? [02:50]
ben_vulpes: the req'd historical version does not even begin to run on current os x [02:50]
mircea_popescu: aha [02:50]
ben_vulpes: VERY SURPRISINGLY [02:50]
ben_vulpes: i have more permutations and combinations to run [02:51]
mircea_popescu: i hope you're keeping very elaboratedly detailed notes [02:51]
mircea_popescu: for your blog. [02:51]
ben_vulpes: poor neglected blog [02:52]
ben_vulpes: drift slut gets all the attention these days [02:52]
mircea_popescu: if you're doing all the trenching anyway, actually documenting it is not much more load, and totally worth it. [02:52]
ben_vulpes: i take entirely adequate notes, tyvm [02:53]
mircea_popescu: cool [02:53]
ben_vulpes: if you don't you end up like gabriel_laddel_p [02:54]
mircea_popescu: howssat [02:54]
ben_vulpes: mess of incantations locked in his head, hasta actually bang on each and every box [02:54]
mircea_popescu: i always thought that was by choice rather than necessity. [02:54]
mircea_popescu: there's a certain artisan's "i will touch all the items" vein in there. [02:55]
ben_vulpes: who could even really say [02:56]
ben_vulpes: oops there i go being nonjudgemental again [02:56]
mircea_popescu: in other random lulz : there are many diseases of the foot, all of them rather similar : capilaries die, then the skin gets colonized by fungus and bacteria, then the nerves die and then gangrene sets in. frostbite is not necessary nor is diabethes -- something as simple as keeping the feet in warm mud for half a day, or wet for a few days in the same socks will do it. [02:56]
mircea_popescu: this, as you might imagine, was a major problem in ww1, which is why it's even called "trench foot". it was then discovered the best solution to the problem is pairing all the soldiers and having each responsible for the feet of the other [02:57]
mircea_popescu: because if it's your own feet, you may well not be bothered to dry them out each day. [02:57]
mircea_popescu: this directly relates to the sad observation of labour activists in the 19th century, that labour is entirely disinterested in its own welfare, and will readily take jobs ~well known~ to be harmful, overly risky, etc. (radium girls go right in here). [02:58]
mircea_popescu: they drew the conclusion that optionality is not enough, and work safety must be provided through regulation. [02:59]
ben_vulpes: 'army of lovers' / [02:59]
a111: Logged on 2017-02-17 05:12 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the washing thing is a serious problem. turns out that if no women around, people stop seeing the point. [02:59]
mircea_popescu: also relates, i bet. [02:59]
ben_vulpes: although i imagine less 'army of lovers' and more 'everyone who *didn't* shit in the codebase is doing pushups' [02:59]
mircea_popescu: lol [03:00]
mircea_popescu: it's a fact though, she's going to keep herself cleaner for you than she's going to for herself and this stands even if you don't say anything. [03:00]
ben_vulpes: 'woman -- lives for man. man -- lives for beer.' [03:05]
mircea_popescu: eh get out. who do you know that actually lives for beer ? [03:05]
mircea_popescu: alcoholics usually have better taste than soda swill. [03:06]
ben_vulpes: come now, not serious in the slightest [03:06]
mircea_popescu: no, you said! [03:06]
ben_vulpes: could just have readily have been 'conquest' if i were in a pandering mood [03:06]
ben_vulpes: unrelatedly, this isn't entirely inscrutable: [03:06]
ben_vulpes: the implicit return of previously-defined return values or whatever-the-hell-is-actually-going-on there is pretty nifty [03:09]
* ben_vulpes has clearly not read the ada books [03:09]
* ben_vulpes also off [03:10]
mircea_popescu: << the fucking cancer. tldr : random transvestite mashed kbd last year, this is now documented as if it somehow mattered. [03:26]
mircea_popescu: in other lulz, mosul successfuly conquered russian reports of mass bombing of civilians entirely untrue. don't fall for fake imitations, always read only the genuinotrue Real News (tm) ! [04:08]
deedbot: << Trilema - Spurious graphs and such [05:50]
jurov: << yet other ppl avoid both mathematica and LaTeX and use...Word. [07:14]
asciilifeform: omfg jurov mathematica ain't a typesetting system! [08:03]
asciilifeform: ( in principle, it can be abused as one, but only because it knows how to shit latex ) [08:04]
asciilifeform: << it is a notbad library to study (no external deps!) -- but it DOES use heap. [08:08]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-29 07:06 ben_vulpes: unrelatedly, this isn't entirely inscrutable: [08:08]
asciilifeform: << what do they do in a fire ? under sunlight ? in acids ? can you make them without any petro ? [08:10]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-29 05:51 mircea_popescu: some of the new microfibers aren't bad. [08:10]
asciilifeform: << hey, d00d specialized in 'building space lift is easy, all you gotta do is to stack rocks like-so' [08:23]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-29 06:55 mircea_popescu: there's a certain artisan's "i will touch all the items" vein in there. [08:23]
asciilifeform: this is not 'artisan', in my pov, but something like what small children do, brute force algo [08:24]
asciilifeform: brute force can even get results if the problem is inherently susceptible (e.g. clearing mine field) -- or, failing that, if at least one bothers to start from unexplored point in solution space [08:25]
asciilifeform: but neither applies to him [08:25]
asciilifeform: << i regret to inform ben_vulpes that reading the book (pick anything that is about ada95 or post) is actually necessary -- a number of things (e.g., the very 'fascist' access variable rules) will make 0 sense until you do [08:29]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-29 07:09 ben_vulpes has clearly not read the ada books [08:29]
mod6: mornin' [08:49]
mod6: i have to say that some of the ada stuff is a bit non-obvious by syntax only. [08:50]
mod6: i've been going through ada95, and it helps with some of the weird stuff like X` and P` or whatever. [08:51]
asciilifeform: mod6: << almost all of the attributes, in helpful list [09:17]
asciilifeform: fwiw the part i found most painful was the 'access' (pointer) rules. generally you can't have a pointer unless you can demonstrate that it can never dangle [09:20]
asciilifeform: (or use 'unchecked' but then you may as well write in c ) [09:20]
mod6: thanks for the link. [09:21]
mod6: yah, im not sure im quite there yet. what i really need to start in on is a decent enough sample program. [09:21]
mod6: something to get into it a bit, but not too deep. before I try to dig into anything on the btctron level. [09:22]
mod6: was thinking maybe something V-like, since it's fresh in my mind. but the string manip might get tedious and ugly and detract from the overall goal. [09:23]
mod6: will think on sample projects to get me into the groove. [09:24]
asciilifeform: mod6: << mandelbrot in ada. [09:24]
* mod6 looks [09:24]
mod6: right, ya, something like that. i've got the links to all the sample proggies from before too. so, maybe i'll extend one of them, or that one, or make my own. [09:25]
asciilifeform: there is no substitute for actually writing proggies, aha [09:26]
mod6: yeah, def. i learn best by doing, indeed. [09:27]
asciilifeform: ada in particular is 'a harsh mistress', you can sit for 3 hrs and your thing simply won't build, gcc won't eat it, and you gotta actually open the book and grasp the reason why, brute force knob-twiddling will get you 0 result. [09:27]
mod6: i've quite noticed that actually. i was trying to figure out "packages" and did an evening worth of headbanging. [09:28]
mod6: over something that should have been totally trivial. [09:28]
asciilifeform: then later it dawns on you that the 'could have been trivial' would have been at the cost of becoming c. [09:29]
mod6: right. fair enough. and reasonable advise. [09:29]
asciilifeform: the pointer rules are the clearest case of this. [09:29]
asciilifeform: in most cases you can't even point to a thing in ~your current scope~ [09:30]
asciilifeform: because machine has nfi which items in ~current~ scope will go out of scope first... [09:30]
mod6: yah hmm. [09:30]
mod6: I hope it's not too prohibitive. [09:31]
asciilifeform: mod6: in principle you can always beg compiler for mercy and introduce 'unchecked', c-isms. or even (1 line, in fact) import arbitrary c. [09:32]
asciilifeform: but it is only 'last resort' [09:33]
asciilifeform: and more or less any problem that doesn't involve os calls, can be solved in some other way. [09:33]
asciilifeform: but it does require letting go of n decades of 'c thinking', where you reflexively litter the proggy with pointers to whatevers [09:34]
asciilifeform: there ~are~ considerable wins in convenience -- you can ask an array how big it is and where it starts/ends (indices are not from zero, but can be from anything to anything, as can types -- you can have a type 'integers from 12 to 15', say.) [09:38]
asciilifeform: but yes, you will do 2-3x the work, subjectively, as when writing c proggy. but it is not ~wasted~ work, just as the work of using v instead of 'git' etc. is not wasted. [09:41]
asciilifeform: the end result -- is different. [09:41]
* shinohai finds V far easier than git now for some reason ..... [09:46]
asciilifeform: i don't bring them up together out of superficial similarity, but from fundamental one -- v rejects 'merge' as a concept ada rejects the promiscuous pointer and cast [09:48]
asciilifeform: both are items 'civilians' are quite accustomed to, to the point of 'how the fuck can anyone even think of living without' [09:48]
asciilifeform: eventually one -- learns. and then you begin to see the monkeys who 'why should i have to look for a special place before taking a shit, i can do it wherever' as the loathesome things they are. [09:49]
asciilifeform: in other lulz, >> kako finally turns off +m , and it is revealed! that the 'gimme money pleeez' folx still exist. just as years ago. [10:13]
shinohai: I think those types will always exist .... I found it mirthful that they showed up in the comments section of the dao hacker article on trilema. [10:23]
asciilifeform: ohai mircea_popescu [10:33]
mircea_popescu: hola! [10:33]
asciilifeform: how's the new bananistan [10:33]
mircea_popescu: pondering whether ima need to order generators etc. [10:33]
mircea_popescu: << eh get out!1 ofcourseitis [10:34]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-29 12:03 asciilifeform: omfg jurov mathematica ain't a typesetting system! [10:34]
* asciilifeform pulls out map, for guess o'the'day : [10:36]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: salvador. [10:36]
mircea_popescu: not salvador. [10:36]
asciilifeform: aw. [10:36]
mircea_popescu: this is gonna be more fun than i had thought. [10:36]
asciilifeform: it's gonna end up a trick, 'ahaha i'm on OTHER END of buenos aires', lel [10:36]
mircea_popescu: << buy a new car take the "upholstery" apart, it's 99% gonna be microfiber. what does it do under sun ? nothing. if you pour coke on it ? nothing. if you pour sulphuric acid it melts, for sure. [10:37]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-29 12:10 asciilifeform: << what do they do in a fire ? under sunlight ? in acids ? can you make them without any petro ? [10:37]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: behind glass is not 'under sun', ~no uv [10:37]
mircea_popescu: that's polyester/polyamide extruded a certain way [10:37]
mircea_popescu: the original item is of course goretex, 1960s tech, where you heat teflon and suddenly pull on it, makes this 8-9-1k% the size microporous structure. [10:38]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so buy a used convertible in la. [10:38]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: don't these typically have leather inside ? [10:39]
mircea_popescu: also go to five star hotel, check out their towels. or buy one of those new and cuddly bathrobes for gf. also microfiber [10:39]
asciilifeform: ( even my fairly ordinary auto -- is all leather ) [10:39]
mircea_popescu: it's no longer legal to make items with animal leatherf in the us pretty sure. [10:39]
asciilifeform: waiwat [10:39]
mircea_popescu: animal products yo. [10:39]
shinohai: My guess of the day: Belize [10:39]
asciilifeform: shinohai: we already had belize [10:39]
mircea_popescu: lawyer sent me memo ten years ago "careful about taking your cane on trip, they're insane" etc. [10:40]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: iirc there was a ban on 'red book' animals etc [10:40]
asciilifeform: not beef. [10:40]
mircea_popescu: what can i tell ye. [10:40]
shinohai: ack missed that - cat logs.txt | grep 'whereindafuqismircea_popescu' [10:40]
mircea_popescu: actually i can tell ye this : in the above context, "not legal" also includes situations where it's technically legal but more expensive to comply than worth bothering (worth as defined by mass scale producers) [10:41]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: on my home planet this was known as 'Докажи, что ты не верблюд' [10:42]
asciilifeform: 'prove that you are not a camel' [10:42]
asciilifeform: originates from old tale : a hare is galloping across the steppe. he meets a wolf, who asks : [10:43]
asciilifeform: 'why are you running like mad?' [10:43]
mircea_popescu: anyway, the greater point here being that the last battle for sanity is being fought : after chem killind most everything ("ecoleather" destroyed leather industry, for instance, rayon/nylon murdered silk, fake news killed linen etc etc), cotton, the last survival natural fiber is under attack. [10:43]
mircea_popescu: it's a point of fact microfibre feels softer, and that's probably that. [10:44]
asciilifeform: hare : 'i heard they catch camels round here, and when caught, you get buggered, then castrated' [10:44]
asciilifeform: wolf : 'so what the fuck are you worried about, you ain't a camel' [10:44]
asciilifeform: hare : 'ah, but see, they'll take you in, bugger, castrate, THEN go and prove that you ain't a camel.' [10:44]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform haha. mmmyeah. [10:44]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: iirc vinylon (aka 'juche fiber', i shit thee not) not only feels slightly stiffer than nylon, but is undyable [10:45]
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> this is gonna be more fun than i had thought. << Ecuador? [10:45]
asciilifeform: which was the absolute deal-killer for the phree world. [10:45]
asciilifeform: (plus is that it never fades or gets visibly dirty) [10:46]
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo nope. iirc was also guessed already ? [10:46]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform juche fiber eh ? lol. [10:47]
BingoBoingo: Well I was going to guess Liberia, but you said unsure about generators [10:47]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: re camels, see also mega-poem, [10:48]
BingoBoingo: Juche fiber is best fiber, from best people, for Best Korea [10:48]
mircea_popescu: the only worthy equiv in ro is the one with the hedgehog's hole which im sure i recounted. [10:48]
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: chile? [10:49]
mircea_popescu: tis not chile, which is why i had french wine with my fish yest. [10:49]
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: north kr was exporting high quality industrial gear when south kr was == congo [10:49]
BingoBoingo: Which is why BEST korea [10:50]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so what. turkey was building the first university when england was == mongolia. [10:50]
mircea_popescu: << speaking of верблюд lol [10:52]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-29 13:20 asciilifeform: fwiw the part i found most painful was the 'access' (pointer) rules. generally you can't have a pointer unless you can demonstrate that it can never dangle [10:52]
mircea_popescu: << this might actually be crucial ingredient in any drepper-safe item. [10:54]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-29 13:27 asciilifeform: ada in particular is 'a harsh mistress', you can sit for 3 hrs and your thing simply won't build, gcc won't eat it, and you gotta actually open the book and grasp the reason why, brute force knob-twiddling will get you 0 result. [10:54]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aha! [10:54]
asciilifeform: iirc we had a small thread about this. [10:54]
mircea_popescu: one or two ya [10:54]
mircea_popescu: and a few about having a aka expert sex change. [10:57]
mircea_popescu: << quite. like work in cleaning operating room before operating is not wasted. "I JUST WANNA GET TO THE KNIFIGN!!" "then might i suggest a back alley knife fight somewhere ?" [10:59]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-29 13:41 asciilifeform: but yes, you will do 2-3x the work, subjectively, as when writing c proggy. but it is not ~wasted~ work, just as the work of using v instead of 'git' etc. is not wasted. [10:59]
asciilifeform: ^ [11:03]
mircea_popescu: "this is surgery among my tribe" scarce consolation / legal defense. [11:05]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is interesting that programmers often lament 'we have no union', but in fact managed a 'confederacy of dunces' so strong and monolithic that they get away with crapola that'd get any other kind of artisan, mass-hanged [11:08]
asciilifeform: builders, for instance, who thought 'i'll just lay a pile of whatevers and call it a house' were buried alive by fucking hammurabi. [11:09]
asciilifeform: well-deservedly. [11:09]
diana_coman: <- I actually think that is a characteristic worth knowing how to replicate in one's own programs: after all the horrors I saw, I quite find it a bad thing that well done code tends to be basically too forgiving on idiots [11:15]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-29 13:27 asciilifeform: ada in particular is 'a harsh mistress', you can sit for 3 hrs and your thing simply won't build, gcc won't eat it, and you gotta actually open the book and grasp the reason why, brute force knob-twiddling will get you 0 result. [11:15]
asciilifeform: see also, diana_coman , [11:17]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-14 14:25 asciilifeform: did we ever do a 'postel's law not only considered harmful but a disaster of epic proportions, quite comparable to leaded petrol' thread ? [11:17]
asciilifeform: or, hm, rather . [11:18]
a111: Logged on 2016-01-11 16:56 ascii_butugychag: for n00bz, 'postel's law' went something like 'be conservative in what you send, be liberal in what you accept.' [11:18]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform either h or gravity lol [11:18]
mircea_popescu: diana_coman this is a problem more fundamental than code. consider : well run us, relying on the wealth amassed by people whose toes today's imbeciles aren't qualified to kiss, the carnegies and rockefellers and etc of the golden age, readily allowed inept management the APPEARANCE of working, at least initially. 1970s us still appeared like it has a future, notwithstanding it had all the future of argentina. why ? because pi [11:20]
mircea_popescu: le of preexisting wealth makes it unapparent just how idiotic mark cuban / virgin branson / dan voiculescu / etc actually are. [11:20]
asciilifeform: orlol called it 'catabolic collapse' [11:21]
asciilifeform: where there's enough stored fat not to notice that intake has stopped [11:21]
mircea_popescu: also consider how methyl alcohol poisoning works (you ever wondered how the rfuck is it possible this STILL occurs today ?) : there's a sudden transition from dosing which the body absorbs without signal to dose wich renders one blind. the animal, without exception, ends up with a source of methyl alcohol. drinks some, is ok. drinks some more tomorrow, is ok. then goes to wedding/party/is depressed, drinks a lot. is blind. [11:22]
mircea_popescu: "but it was ok before" "yes, and you're a rodent." [11:22]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform quite exactly, these systems with delayed backfeed are generally beyond the ability of the common human brain to administer. [11:22]
diana_coman: certainly more fundamental I talked about code because I write code, not because the issue is not clearly visible otherwise [11:22]
mircea_popescu: yeah. [11:22]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the term i usually use is 'ecological problem' -- and it is tricky, because how do you demonstrate that something is one, beyond dispute. this may be why various derps like to go straight to masquerading as ecologists... [11:23]
mircea_popescu: and that's just how the code trap works too : it takes a while for the cost of shitty practices to accrue to the point where it exceeds the cost of having used alternative practices. [11:24]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu has a thread a few days ago re sister-fucking, as example [11:24]
mircea_popescu: which is why 2012 btc dev team thinks mp is being eccentric and couldn't possibly ever get wiped. [11:24]
phf: fwiw ada is a harsh mistress is an illusion. if it were to become fashionable to write ada among the hacker news crowd, there will be rapid attempts at modernization. common lisp went through that process [11:24]
mircea_popescu: phf yeh i recall that threat. [11:24]
mircea_popescu: thread* [11:24]
diana_coman: but essentially it is so far the only sort of approach that stands a chance against the mass of idiots basically still a field of study for me re actual deployment, but anyways [11:24]
asciilifeform: phf: i have a hard time picturing said 'modernization' as looking like anything other than 'let's turn it into cpp' [11:25]
mircea_popescu: and ? [11:25]
mircea_popescu: understand, there's dorks on tardstalk TODAY going "oh, mp keeps saying things and they keep not happening." [11:25]
asciilifeform: then again, i could be wrong, they could shit out 'tools' that 'autogenerate the hard parts' or whatnot. [11:25]
phf: etc. [11:25]
mircea_popescu: there's absolutely no meaning involved in the affairs of the subhuman. [11:25]
asciilifeform: phf: it'd be entertaining to see what, exactly, they'd do. [11:25]
mircea_popescu: the above works. "Turn it into cpp." [11:25]
asciilifeform: i suspect that this will not happen, however. the language has 0 appeal ~other than~ for the safety. [11:26]
asciilifeform: it is a very ugly sibling of pascal. [11:26]
mircea_popescu: define "has appeal" [11:26]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the animal, imho, doesn't have a skin that anyone might care to wear. if you remove the safety, it simply becomes a muchly verbose cpp. [11:27]
diana_coman: asciilifeform, the "appeal" from an idiot perspective is "it's popular" that means that at some point (late, but anyways) they WILL find it appealing [11:27]
mircea_popescu: the way we do things has no appeal except to serve the way we think. yet, ape-ing is constant. stealing bits of trilema is like chuka raiding rtg in siberia, yet chukas do raid. on it goes. [11:27]
asciilifeform: diana_coman: it's been sitting there since 1982, so far ~0 uptake among these folx. [11:27]
diana_coman: anything you do and works and becomes useful WILL encounter the mass of idiots jumping on it [11:27]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the problem is one of labels not one of contents. you keep thinking in utility terms. [11:27]
phf: anything can have a pose. if it becomes so that "no real hacker", you're going to have plenty of "real hackers" at ada hackathons wearing "ada: make you hack better, bitch" tshirts [11:27]
mircea_popescu: there's no utility involved. suburban ustard wears item because of ~how it makes her feel~ to ~be seen~ as ~being one of the~ rather than any use. [11:28]
phf: ^ [11:28]
mircea_popescu: what, you think black and decker power tools hanging from power cords around the neck could NEVER become a "music industry" standard ? [11:28]
mircea_popescu: holy shit, purported usage of weapons IN EXACT CONTRADICTION TO THEIR UTILITY is a holywood standard today! [11:29]
asciilifeform: notice that nobody walks around with hydraulic presses hanging from neck as fashion statement. [11:29]
asciilifeform: nor pneumatic drills. [11:29]
mircea_popescu: ever fucking tried firing one of those shits indoors ? just for lulz ? [11:29]
phf: asciilifeform: it's too big of an item, but ~they still totally do~ you just need to go to burning man. plenty of people are "i build art for the big burn, can handle big machines" [11:29]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is sadly a form of special pleading. consider the tribe of americans in the nation of africa with the deformed heads / elongated necks / etc. [11:29]
mircea_popescu: they'll wear the pneumatic drills alright. [11:30]
mircea_popescu: phf aha! [11:30]
mircea_popescu: burning lamerman. [11:30]
asciilifeform: hey it isn't impossible. [11:30]
diana_coman: asciilifeform, ~everything has been sitting there since ages until someone comes and does something useful (for him) with it and THEN, (as in: too late) everybody starts doing something with it hence popular etc [11:31]
mircea_popescu: incidentally, the fact that people can not ~naturally~ drive on ice is sufficient case study to illustrate just how poor the human brain is at handling delayed backfeed. [11:32]
asciilifeform: the interesting q to ask re a system is not 'can idiots make a sham version' but 'can i tell that this was done' [11:32]
mircea_popescu: consider : running a destornillador comes out of the box skating - nope. [11:32]
diana_coman: asciilifeform, urgh, I'd rather ask: how I can PREVENT this being done [11:32]
asciilifeform: as it is, if grep -i -r unchecked * returns nil, and proggy builds in my gnat -- it is kosher ada [11:32]
asciilifeform: and there is very little that a monkey can do . [11:33]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform technically speaking this is universally guaranteed. as per the ancient "idiot -- can not have idea mp saying x and idiot saying x are not the same", the mere fact of your using it enacts it as a ~substantially~ different item than what they use. [11:33]
mircea_popescu: this is trivially true and directly verified with eg irc, or gpg, or any other item we deigned to use. [11:33]
phf: (speaking of common lisp. asdf the system dependency tool turned from 30k in version 1 into a asdf/uiop 900k monster in version 2. in a systemd move took over most of the compatability packages and is now present ~in every single lisp distribution~. with the did accomplished, Fare posts the following ) [11:33]
asciilifeform: phf: i saw this, it was quite sad [11:33]
asciilifeform: it and 'quicklisp'. [11:34]
mircea_popescu: phf deed [11:34]
phf: yeah, i was about to *, but i keep doing this, where i type equivalent sounding words all over the place [11:34]
mircea_popescu: it'll fix itself if gf keeps correcting you. [11:34]
mircea_popescu: i know from experience. [11:34]
asciilifeform: to revisit upstack, << naggum's observation 'cl does not support posers, no one will land a job by pretending to know it, you can expose him in 5 minutes' was only half-true -- turns out there is a process whereby vermin colonize a field, it is quite similar to the way in which lichens break apart a stone into soil [11:36]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-29 15:27 diana_coman: asciilifeform, the "appeal" from an idiot perspective is "it's popular" that means that at some point (late, but anyways) they WILL find it appealing [11:36]
phf: asciilifeform: i actually tried replacing my asdf with asdf1 and the failure is that of thousand cuts. small, completely inconsequential additions to asdf file or some pointless uiop:foo-bar somewhere deep in code. some asdf files have hardcoded #-asdf3(error "asdf3 required") but then still work, etc. [11:37]
asciilifeform: phf: they did it to emacs, even [11:37]
asciilifeform: ( see last year's 'flycheck' thread ) [11:37]
asciilifeform: same exact thing. [11:37]
phf: right, so you grok the method [11:37]
asciilifeform: 'wanna install widget W ? ok, now install auto-liquishit-pump so it can download 10,001 turds and THEIR dependencies, and gender-fixes' [11:38]
asciilifeform: the important thing is that this process is exactly like the growth of fungus in aids patient [11:38]
asciilifeform: it is simply not possible if there are active graybeards, forming a perimeter defense [11:39]
asciilifeform: the fungus comes -- when they die. [11:39]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform essentially, "no one will" holds for as long as there's an imaginary fixed point to hang it of -- actual management in this case. what happens once obama is in charge of hiring ? why, one CAN!! suddeny get job by pretending to know, and ONLY by pretending. no nsa for oyu! [11:39]
asciilifeform: well yes -- the fungus. [11:39]
mircea_popescu: aha [11:39]
diana_coman: "you can expose him in 5 minutes" is not enough and moreover it is in favour of the idiots simply because ..mass [11:40]
diana_coman: so you expose 1 and then 10 and then 100 and so what infinite points are on their side [11:40]
mircea_popescu: i don't need five minutes to expose a bad collegiate paper, what's the exposure do ? [11:40]
mircea_popescu: "but it was too much too read! it's hard!" [11:40]
diana_coman: I read there "kick him out" for "exposing" [11:40]
asciilifeform: it does very little good, for the drowning sailor, to 'expose' the water, aha [11:40]
diana_coman: but myeah [11:41]
mircea_popescu: aha! [11:41]
mircea_popescu: "come see the violence inherent in the glub glub glub!" [11:41]
diana_coman: trouble is that unless the kick out is intrinsic, simply a machine function [11:41]
asciilifeform: need mechanism, to separate self from the water. [11:41]
asciilifeform: aka boat. [11:41]
diana_coman: it can and will be overrun from what I can see [11:41]
mircea_popescu: phf that's kinda how/why we're stuck maintaining the world. gotta do the purges once and share. this "one man against horde of rats" is why people don't have sane tools today. [11:42]
mircea_popescu: it's more than what any sane mind can do, to fix ALL THE ONES HE NEEDS. [11:42]
mircea_popescu: it's not however more to fix one or two of them and if this work can be pooled then a complete system becomes quite feasible. [11:42]
asciilifeform: the result of merely kicking out the current crop of dreppers is more raft than boat, it oughta be remembered [11:43]
asciilifeform: the process that breeds them is inherent in c machine. [11:44]
mircea_popescu: technically speaking all land on earth is more raft than boat. [11:44]
mircea_popescu: floats on magma. [11:44]
mircea_popescu: it doesn't fall in not because hull, like boat, but because mutual reinforcement. which is imo the idea of "maintain world" for us too. clearly tmsr world will be bigger than usg/whatever world. if it is also sufficiently rigid, gravity or seaworthyness are no longer considerations : it can't fall in because of itself not leaving room to. [11:46]
mircea_popescu: PS: Here are ways that Racket is indeed vastly superior to CL, that make me believe it's the future of Lisp: First and foremost, Racket keeps evolving, and not just "above" the base language, but importantly *below*. This alone makes it vastly superior to CL (that has evolved tremendously "above" its base abstractions, but hasn't evolved "below", except for FFI purpose, in the last 20 years), and superior to most languages (t [11:50]
mircea_popescu: hat tend to not evolve much "above", and not at all "below" their base abstractions). [11:50]
mircea_popescu: omfg this is the dumbest thing i read all week! and i read beginner's essays penned by 20yo sluts!! [11:51]
asciilifeform: lol python3ism [11:51]
mircea_popescu: holy shit wtf, "evolving" abstractions ? [11:51]
asciilifeform: 'you ain't evolving, when's the last time you redefined the number four' [11:51]
mircea_popescu: any evolution whatsoever means i don't want to touch that item. [11:51]
mircea_popescu: dude who the fuck cares what fare says/does, his head is more broken than anything you'd drag out of a colombian by the hour hotel. [11:51]
asciilifeform: the fungi rely on 'evolution of fundamentals', aka putrescence [11:51]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the sad part is that d00d used to be ~sane [11:52]
mircea_popescu: i do not believe this. [11:52]
mircea_popescu: one doesn't simply become dumb. [11:52]
asciilifeform: does mircea_popescu also disbelieve , e.g., ? [11:53]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-27 17:57 phf: << by the way rich felker is the author of musl [11:53]
mircea_popescu: not yet. [11:53]
mircea_popescu: show me similar heartfelt idiocy, and i will, yes. [11:53]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu must not have read the links in ^thread [11:53]
mircea_popescu: i thought i had [11:54]
mircea_popescu: but what's in a reread. lessee. [11:54]
asciilifeform: felker is 1,001 'leahs', if you will, if measured as horsepower is in horses [11:54]
asciilifeform: ... and at the same time wrote, and maintains, musl. [11:54]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's not clear to me we're on the page here. is the point of interest ? [11:56]
asciilifeform: no [11:56]
mircea_popescu: i'm supposed to give a shit what tweets some dood tweeted ? [11:56]
asciilifeform: that's where he talks. [11:56]
mircea_popescu: i'm sorry, twitter is not a platform. anyone can say whatever the fuyck they want 140 chars at a time and i'll ignore it just like i ignore smsn [11:56]
mircea_popescu: then he is using it correctly, can say w/e the fuck. [11:56]
mircea_popescu: also why the fuck won't bernstein SIGN random text snippers. [11:57]
phf: i don't think fare was ever sane, but he at some point existed in similar space to asciilifeform, so people would mix the two together. i don't think anything he ever wrote was as lucid as "seven laws of sane computing", but a lot of highly abstract verbiage on imaginary systems designs [11:58]
mircea_popescu: there's a very strict difference between technical competence and trustworthyness. [11:58]
mircea_popescu: i know plenty of 15yos who could recite factoids about fast cars i would nevertheless not permit to drive my fast car. [11:59]
mircea_popescu: chiefly because it never fails to come to something like this. [11:59]
asciilifeform: phf: there was a considerable shadow world of folx with 'big dreams' re sane comp, but ~0 technical capability, e.g., r. kulisz [11:59]
mircea_popescu: is this your mental placing of gladdel fellow ? [12:00]
asciilifeform: and various others ( i think some of them are still linked from my www, they were 'in the birdlessness, my arse is a nightingale' ) [12:00]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is. [12:00]
asciilifeform: he falls exactly into that bin, sadly. [12:00]
asciilifeform: ted nelson is a patron saint, of these folx [12:01]
mircea_popescu: i thought that guy with the failed lcd restaurant would have been. [12:01]
mircea_popescu: da fuck is his name. [12:01]
asciilifeform: ( d00d who invented hyperlink, and spent half a century (!) and counting, trying to actually build something, even $mil's from john walker didn't help ) [12:01]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: jwz? [12:01]
mircea_popescu: no no. ex amiga iirc investor. [12:02]
mircea_popescu: made a bunch of money out of consumer plastication of computing, went on to "be entrepreneur" [12:02]
mircea_popescu: failed universally over 20-30 different tries. [12:02]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: atari, not amiga [12:03]
asciilifeform: bushnell ? [12:03]
mircea_popescu: it's somewhat funny, in the side pocket, how paul graham's idle verbiage about "the power of tech entrepreneurs to reinvest and create wealth" ENTIRELY ignores how without exceptrion his chosen field consists of mark cubans, ie dorks who made away with a large pile of corporate loot in a very madoffian manner and then just kept piddling it away. [12:03]
phf: i met fare at one of international lisp conference's and i thought he was kind of off, but the kind of work he did on asdf3 precisely corresponds to his personal and writing styles. sort of like a dirty kid that you have to constantly remind to like fucking go wash yourself dude, omg [12:04]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes! pizza time theatre! [12:05]
asciilifeform: phf: i definitely know the ~type~ aha [12:05]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: or how 'create wealth' means 'drill into the printolade pipeline' [12:08]
mircea_popescu: in other news, toshiba seems headed for the ex-bin. after the "we made up 7bn profits over the past 6 years and are really losing 5bn a year atm" 2016 lulz, they've announced a 3.5bn looting by the usg this year. [12:09]
asciilifeform: (y'know, the way nigerian villagers 'create wealth', by augering petropipe and standing around with buckets) [12:09]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the problem being that they can't reproduce it. [12:09]
mircea_popescu: (basically, long story short, usg financed a coupla units in georgia and ncarolina with japan's money, ain't giving it back. loss is whatever you want it to be, 3 to 10 bn) [12:10]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: usg will loot everyone who is still worth anything who has any vulnerable limbs in usgdom -- just as it looted 'olympus' [12:10]
mircea_popescu: aha. just making a modest stab at chronicling the process [12:10]
mircea_popescu: not like you can find it anyuwhere else. [12:10]
asciilifeform: as uncle al schwartz wrote, re mexico's nationalization of syntex co (maker of 1st synthetic progesterone) -- 'it died, and as always they called it 'bad luck'' [12:12]
mircea_popescu: the scam is very fuinny in particular because usg-run toshiba subsidiary westinghouse negotiated "fixed price" contracts with local baronies they happen to understate actual cost by at least 60%. unsurprisingly, the "undue enrichment" concepts were temporarily suspended. had it gone the other way, and toshiba managed to make off with 250% what it was owed, it'd be all "Corruption scandal" and whatnot, of course. [12:12]
asciilifeform: expect moar 'back lucks' as usg burns the furniture. [12:12]
mircea_popescu: if usg asks for an apple and you bid a dollar and then they decide to define "apple" as a sack of potatoes, you owe two dollars in merchandise. [12:13]
mircea_popescu: if usg asks for an apple, you bid a dollar, and nobody underbids you, they'll decide they must "inspect" to "investigate" etcetera, and won't you agree to a three dollar fine ? [12:13]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: iirc jp is not the only head on the chopping block [12:16]
asciilifeform: they are nailing, e.g., samsung [12:17]
asciilifeform: ('corruption' !!) [12:17]
asciilifeform: 'hey we heard you had a bag of money, need help... carrying it' [12:17]
asciilifeform: 'folx like you, straining, carrying bag, could have Problems!' [12:18]
mircea_popescu: aha [12:18]
mircea_popescu: whatever, i never liked toshiba. [12:18]
asciilifeform: i liked toshiba. [12:19]
phf: pretty sure my first vhs was toshiba [12:20]
asciilifeform: it (even now!) makes a z80. and bunch of truly own weirdo cpu. [12:20]
asciilifeform: phf: mine also [12:20]
mircea_popescu: kinda why i didn't like it. made all these bs lower market tvs. [12:20]
mircea_popescu: wtf is wrong with you know, siemens! [12:20]
asciilifeform: with death of toshiba, microcontrollers will take a serious step to the same shithole in which pc cpu sits [12:20]
asciilifeform: where there are 1-2 makers [12:20]
asciilifeform: and ~1 arch [12:20]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the japs are trying to insulate it from the loss, it may survive in parts. [12:21]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: siemens turned out to be nsaware, recall. [12:21]
mircea_popescu: not in the 80s! [12:21]
asciilifeform: which was sad but unsurprising, given what post-'45 germany is. [12:21]
mircea_popescu: we're discussing 30 years ago sorta thing. [12:21]
asciilifeform: there did not exist nsaware in '80s. [12:21]
mircea_popescu: well, not mass market anyway [12:21]
asciilifeform: (other than, perhaps, cryptoAG's mechanical ciphrators) [12:21]
phf: i vaguely suspect japan is actively shedding u.s. assets, so all these "investigations" might be u.s. attempt to extract whatever they can still extract [12:23]
mircea_popescu: this is just about the case. [12:23]
mircea_popescu: japan is actually finding itself in a very great conjuncture, reminiscent of early 1900s. both russia and china need it. the usg... who cares. [12:24]
mircea_popescu: which is why the "exotic" nationalist party, abe & co, keep pushing for army. [12:24]
Framedragger: re. FUCKGOATS customs hold-up in UK: according to their story the hold-up with uk customs was due to them having to apply import duty (had to pay a bit) from u.s., *even though* i've had plenty of shit sent in from u.s. of a. before, so who knows (they wouldn't tell me more) :D [12:24]
asciilifeform: they have sound vans, advertising 'hey folx, remember when we were a COUNTRY!?' [12:25]
mircea_popescu: Framedragger how much did you end up paying per unit, and under what title was it extracted ? [12:25]
Framedragger: it *could* be that it's because asciilifeform nicely noted down a dollar value on the parcel but then if he didn't he'd technically be breaking some law or another i'm sure [12:25]
mircea_popescu: if you find it within yoruself to post forms you were issued that'd be grand. [12:25]
Framedragger: minimum import duty amount ~£8, *but* there is a tax for the tax (not kiddin) - administrative fee - which is also £8, so £16 in total for import (lololol) [12:25]
asciilifeform: iirc i declared it as '50 usd' [12:25]
mircea_popescu: makes for a great post at any rate. [12:25]
mircea_popescu: z [12:26]
Framedragger: asciilifeform: yes correct [12:26]
Framedragger: the only form they gave me was basically a fucking postcard saying "you gotta pay us if you want it" [12:26]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform why bother ? not like it's insured, what's the upside. [12:26]
Framedragger: i can post it later but need to finish a thing tonight [12:26]
mircea_popescu: no rush [12:26]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i've had parcels marked 'gifts' disappear mysteriously [12:27]
mircea_popescu: at #16 it's cheaper to reorder lol [12:27]
asciilifeform: ( china --> usa usually gets away with it , usa --> wherever -- not so much) [12:27]
phf: only thing they shipping usa -> wherever is drugs. so it's a pretty safe bet to investigate [12:28]
Framedragger: (i also called them to inquire but teh law is that they can't tell me more than on a postcard (which gives amount to pay, basically, i mean for srs). i may have gleaned something more by showing up at relevant delivery office (not the closest one) but i didn't bother (paid online and got it posted to my door)) [12:28]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: actually tricky bit, say btc goes to 5k, then buyer may well be rather pissed, rather than 'oh i'll reorder' [12:28]
mircea_popescu: yeah i guess. sucks to live in a shitty jurisdiction huh. [12:28]
mircea_popescu: no real way to insulate victim. [12:29]
asciilifeform: phf: i am fairly certain the post clerk thought i was sending $contraband [12:29]
mircea_popescu: ftr, mp put > 200kgs worth of mostly electronica through customes at $mystery-location. took all of 5 minutes and $0 in fees. [12:29]
mircea_popescu: though i did give a fiddy to the porter who handled all of it, dude earned it. also made his day quite evidently. [12:29]
asciilifeform: 'd00d walks in, knapsack of fat white envelopes to $monkeystans' [12:30]
mircea_popescu: lol. for srs. [12:30]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i did get that trunk of pogos through .ar customs. though it made for interesting conversation [12:30]
mircea_popescu: lol how'd that go [12:31]
mircea_popescu: btw -- here's a new mp rule : if the airport you land at does not have porters waiting at the ready, you have landed in the third world. [12:31]
mircea_popescu: i don't give a shit about any excuses. this is the first, and the most important criterion of any place. no airport coolies, not civilised. [12:32]
asciilifeform: approx, d00d : 'what is this' asciilifeform : 'technical samples' d00d : 'promise you'll take them back where you came from' asciilifeform : 'mmok' [12:32]
asciilifeform: $0 tax [12:32]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i didn't perjure you, they didn't get sold or left in argentina, so. all good. [12:32]
asciilifeform: lulwin. [12:33]
asciilifeform: btw they'll run 'nqb' pretty well, i suspect. [12:33]
asciilifeform: ( an' just about anything else, other than ye olde hog ) [12:33]
mircea_popescu: yeah they're not bad at all. [12:33]
asciilifeform: i still have several here, am quite fond of them. [12:34]
* phf imagines carefully packed pogos in one of those old travel trunks, numbered "trunk #49: pogos" next to "trunk #50: hats" [12:35]
asciilifeform: phf: not far from reality, lel [12:35]
mircea_popescu: but aside from a whole crate with like 50 pogos in their original packaging, i carried over two granite mortar&pestle arrangements. because fu, i gotta have my pie spices hand ground. [12:36]
asciilifeform: ( see also ) [12:36]
a111: Logged on 2016-09-08 15:47 asciilifeform: a c-grinder will also, should its lid come off, happily continue to fly (yes) around the kitchen, grinding whatever ends up in its path, drywall, chairs, people, van goghs, stradivaris, crates of ammunition, dogs, dildos. [12:36]
mircea_popescu: approaching muslim levels from prev thread over here. [12:36]
asciilifeform: hey mircea_popescu asciilifeform's family brought dishes, meat grinder, etc. to usa. [12:36]
asciilifeform: 'what, leave'em at home?!' [12:37]
mircea_popescu: lel. [12:37]
mircea_popescu: amusingly, it is way the fuck cheaper to overweight flights than to fedex. by a factor of like, 2. [12:37]
mircea_popescu: i have nfi wtf scam this is, but it makes entirely no sense whatsoever. [12:37]
asciilifeform: the funny bit, is that all of the junk went by ~boat~, in special container [12:37]
phf: oh yeah i have those two, i bought one in india last time, and it's as close as you can get to "rock with hole, another rock for mashing" [12:37]
asciilifeform: and by the time it came : 1) 2/3 was missing 2) the remainder -- was utterly redundant [12:37]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if i were actually doing > 2 tons or so i'd have bothered. but really didn't have enough to juysrtify actual shipping [12:38]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: could have brought your diesel!11 [12:38]
mircea_popescu: phf nah these are quite elegant actually. and ferous granite also, it's a slpendor. [12:38]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you have no idea. it's worth 150% there of what it'd be worth anywhere else. [12:38]
asciilifeform: lol granite... ever go over it with geiger ? (or the food..) [12:38]
asciilifeform: dunno if i want alpha emitters in my phood. [12:39]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yep. it's lower than water! [12:39]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: trick q, geiger won't pick up alpha [12:39]
asciilifeform: (unless you have exotic 'pancake' probe) [12:39]
mircea_popescu: yeah well. if it dun have one it dun't have any! [12:39]
asciilifeform: speaking of which, asciilifeform finally discovered how to make a decay-based rng that doesn't wear out or need high voltage -- use PIN diode. the q was always what to use for an emitter, that won't be stolen by post office of half the globe. granite, it occurs to me, is probably a good bet. [12:41]
mircea_popescu: this isn't simil-granite for putting on yoru wall actual rock dug out from ground and polished. imo better than jade. [12:41]
asciilifeform: well yes, that very same granite [12:41]
asciilifeform: faux granite dun have any U in it. [12:41]
mircea_popescu: it does because same reason as the cinder thing [12:41]
asciilifeform: i thought faux-granite were a bakelite-like substance. [12:42]
mircea_popescu: i thought it was just a specially treated waste disposal method [12:42]
mircea_popescu: possibly we're talking of two things. [12:42]
asciilifeform: possible. [12:42]
mircea_popescu: << lol at the "i write my text on windows" part but that aside the dude has a point. [12:43]
mircea_popescu: wtf is his problem anyway ? [12:43]
mircea_popescu: this "kitten is apparently half-capable of thought" scenarios always disturb me. [12:44]
phf: asciilifeform: why'd you say this. now i won't be able to make spices until i check. not like it would've killed me otherwise (tm)! [12:44]
mircea_popescu: phf alpha does nothing to you anyway. [12:44]
asciilifeform: tell that to litvinenko lol. [12:45]
mircea_popescu: is he going to EAT the pestle ?! [12:45]
asciilifeform: i dun think the pestle is immune to friction [12:45]
mircea_popescu: but by the microgram! [12:46]
asciilifeform: radon is also eaten by microgram, neh. [12:46]
asciilifeform: hey if it's any comfort, plastic spoons are probably more lethal. [12:46]
mircea_popescu: neh. radon is problematic for being immersed in. [12:46]
mircea_popescu: and plastic spoons are pretty bad. imagine -- i got silver silverware here! [12:47]
mircea_popescu: anyway, to not misguide noobs : litvenko, usg agent that got murdered by the fsb in london, was poisoned with polonium. the alpha emitter effect of the metal, while present, was not necessarily. polonium is chemically toxic, much more so than cyanide, ld50 being in the microgram range (ie 1000ths of a grain of salt). [12:53]
asciilifeform: why not then , e.g., osmium. [12:54]
asciilifeform: cheaper. [12:54]
asciilifeform: and just as 'golden toilet' demonstrative. [12:54]
mircea_popescu: i don't explain the weird. [12:54]
mircea_popescu: why not the proven-to-work ricin thing, neh. who knows these things. [12:55]
mircea_popescu: anyway. polonium doth naturally exist and accumulate [12:55]
mircea_popescu: possibly one reason the eskimos are retarded, for instance. [12:56]
asciilifeform: naturally?! [12:56]
mircea_popescu: yea. [12:56]
mircea_popescu: polonium occurs from uranium decay and chemically masquerades sulphur which makes it a joker in many biological pathways. [12:56]
mircea_popescu: (it's for instance one of the very few legitimate causes of cancer-from-smoking, notwithstanding the blanket nonsense spewing from ourdemocracytards.) [12:57]
mircea_popescu: seafood also contributes a healthy dose. especially these days. [12:58]
mircea_popescu: in other "twentysomething metrosexual guys masquerading as neurotic, sexually neglected middle aged gals" news, check this shit out : [13:08]
mircea_popescu: a collective!!1 [13:08]
mircea_popescu: "I was in an abusive relationship with Jake for six months in 2009. We parted on ostensibly amicable terms and have had little contact since then. When the accusations of professional misconduct and predatory sexual behavior were made public, I believed them, not just because I value and respect the men and women who made these accusations, but also because they sounded just like him. I saw him use those same strategies years [13:10]
mircea_popescu: ago." [13:10]
mircea_popescu: "During these discussions there was a lot of gaslighting. One discussion in particular, he claimed that I had somehow deeply injured him (I don't remember what I did) and was inconsolable. I kept asking him what I could do, and finally he insisted that for him to feel better I needed to clean his floors naked. And I did it. I cried the whole time, in surreal horror. He cheered up and took photos of me, crying and naked, scrub [13:12]
mircea_popescu: bing his floor. I want to be perfectly clear that there was nothing fun or kinky about this. I don't enjoy humiliation, and it was not a consensual part of our sex life." [13:12]
mircea_popescu: lots and lots of this, mostly mildly entertaining brat (term of art) upset she sucks at it and GETTING EVEN!!11 [13:12]
deedbot: << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1411...7717 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <> ' ( RO IS) [13:13]
deedbot: << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1523...9893 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <> ' ( RO IS) [13:13]
mircea_popescu: but anyway, back to the upstream : the whole thing is rather damaging of bernstein's own standing and credibility. he engages in this sort of behaviours, he isn't much of a man, and certainly the sordid tale of his misbehaviour disabused me of any intention of rating him on the basis of his work. [13:15]
mircea_popescu: idiot actually wrote a 12k word about this inept bullshit. where's his fucking 12k word discussion of any of his ACTUAL FUCKING WORK [13:24]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: bernstein ?! has multi-MB www of unique and valuable work [13:45]
asciilifeform: incl. the motherfucking smooth integers algo. [13:45]
asciilifeform: << subj. [13:46]
mircea_popescu: find all pages > 12kb of detailed narrative wordage. [13:46]
mircea_popescu: guy is as terse as if he'd be writing with ass clicker when doing actual work [13:46]
mircea_popescu: suddenly he's a novelist when these grease spots are concerned [13:47]
asciilifeform: or how about bernstein vs. unitedstates. [13:47]
mircea_popescu: i am very offended by the behavious. [13:47]
asciilifeform: [13:47]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform he "will spend significant time" to find... "Research" tasks adequate to that fuckdolls "level" yet he can't be bothered to figure out how deedbot works ? [13:47]
mircea_popescu: defend this, i wish to hear it. [13:47]
mircea_popescu: i'm fucking pissed off. [13:48]
asciilifeform: i have nothing with which to explain it. or, e.g., taleb. [13:48]
mircea_popescu: anyone got an email of the dork ? [13:48]
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: i thought he was being a bit satirical and snarky in that particular passage you quote (those two paras), from when i read it first. not that his general pose of presenting an excuse (if diligently detailed) of this kind of a good sign, of course. just that the tone is not *that* bad. (but, okay, perhaps bad enough when the piece is considered in whole.) [13:49]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: [13:49]
asciilifeform: fwiw i wrote to him after i deployed phuctor-cum-bernsteintron. 0 answer. [13:49]
asciilifeform: then again apparently nobody ever answers when asciilifeform writes [13:49]
mircea_popescu: not for a fucking second. he is enabling the misbehaviour of 30yo children. i gotta do more work bitchlapping these idiot cunts into the ground because he buys them food and doesn't makle them pay for the shiot they break. [13:50]
asciilifeform: not the lispm folx, not bernstein, whoever. [13:50]
mircea_popescu: he's as antisocial as it fucking gets! [13:50]
Framedragger: s/of a good sign/is a good sign/ [13:50]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i don't give a shit about answers. i perceive i must send him a one liner "you should be ashamed of yourself", because HE SHOULD FUCKING BE ASHAMED OF HIMSELF. [13:50]
asciilifeform: put on trilema, then he's doomed to see... [13:51]
mircea_popescu: im doing a different article, but anyway. [13:52]
asciilifeform: re ' "Research" tasks adequate to that fuckdolls "level" ', the sad thing is that herding pigs is his ~day job~ [13:53]
mircea_popescu: this is supposed to be mitigation ? [13:53]
asciilifeform: y'know, sorta how winblowz internals is asciilifeform's [13:53]
mircea_popescu: it's not mitigation. [13:53]
asciilifeform: it is possible to have a worse one. [13:54]
mircea_popescu: i'm sorry ? [13:54]
asciilifeform: worse job. [13:54]
mircea_popescu: how ? [13:54]
asciilifeform: could be, e.g., nsa stooge [13:54]
asciilifeform: or a poettering [13:54]
asciilifeform: or for that matter could be one of those 999/1000 academics who churn out shannonized crapola. [13:55]
asciilifeform: instead, d00d is (and only one currently living, afaik) actual cryptographer in... cryptography [13:56]
asciilifeform: though in this capacity he may well be spent, and his useful life -- behind [13:56]
mircea_popescu: in other lulz. [13:56]
Framedragger: but this is along the lines of "could be coal miner, chucking coal 18h/day". well yeah... [13:56]
asciilifeform: lol, pretty barbaric spam filter [13:57]
mircea_popescu: they're ~all the same. [13:58]
asciilifeform: well there's 2 types, one is this, the other is when you let nsa filter the spam (google's) [13:59]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i am not of the persuasion that poettering, ie, out and out wrecker, is in any sane sense worse than jwz, ie, "i'm just going to silently and passively enable the valence idiots". [13:59]
mircea_popescu: i will certainly hang the "nice people" in preference of the poetterings. just like trump does. [13:59]
mircea_popescu: correct strategy when dealing with the empire of idiots -- hang the idiots, not their handlers. [13:59]
asciilifeform: philosophically, the d00d who lights the match, and the one who stands and watches, are 'same' in practice -- different, in that if you shoot the latter, very soon your kingdom is empty [14:00]
mircea_popescu: had mp not happened to make a comment and alf to insist and mp to read this bullshit, mp'd have never known what miserable immoral acts bernstein engages in regularly. and nobody'd have told him. [14:00]
mircea_popescu: meanwhile poettering, i wasn't going to miss. [14:00]
asciilifeform: this point actually figured quite prominently in the north vs south kr wars [14:00]
asciilifeform: north -- shot the japanese collaborationists [14:01]
asciilifeform: south -- used'em, incl. the dictators [14:01]
mircea_popescu: i would much prefer an empty kingdom. i utterly have no use of these softie surogate idiot-usian parenting types. [14:01]
ben_vulpes: << you wrote heapless ecdsa routines for nqb? [14:02]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-29 12:08 asciilifeform: << it is a notbad library to study (no external deps!) -- but it DOES use heap. [14:02]
mircea_popescu: so he said yest. [14:02]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: the 'nq' in 'nqb' [14:03]
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu is citing ? [14:03]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-29 00:47 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: presently it eats blocks and tx in a heapless and demonstrably nonoverflowable way, into a general-purpose fixed space (no tx can >1MB) representation that is operable in O(1) [14:03]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: means 'not quite'. there is no script processing. [14:03]
ben_vulpes: but verifies signatures? [14:03]
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes that illuminated by previous comments / my understanding of his work. [14:03]
asciilifeform: it isn't a btctron. only demonstration of db algo [14:03]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: no crypto [14:03]
ben_vulpes: this is what i am asking [14:03]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: can't verify sigs. or generate'em. [14:03]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ah so wait, no sig verify ? [14:03]
mircea_popescu: aah [14:04]
asciilifeform: not yet! [14:04]
mircea_popescu: i had the idea it actually does verify sigs just not scripts. [14:04]
asciilifeform: it's an exploration of 'how to store tx?' [14:04]
asciilifeform: nooo [14:04]
asciilifeform: if it could verify sigs! [14:04]
asciilifeform: it'd be a btctron. [14:04]
mircea_popescu: then why specifically mention scripts lol. [14:04]
mircea_popescu: well, arguably. notrly. but anyway. [14:04]
asciilifeform: because gotta ~store~ them. [14:04]
ben_vulpes: be ye not afraid of appearing retarded in the republic, for questions you might not ask for fear of appearing stupid turn out to illuminate all sorts of things. [14:04]
mircea_popescu: ah i c. [14:04]
ben_vulpes: just, don't actually be stupid. [14:05]
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes word. muh misunderstandings! [14:05]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: actually implementing script verification is a serious work, quite likely to take entire year. [14:05]
mircea_popescu: depends on which kindergarten one went to amirite alfier [14:05]
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: why bother? [14:05]
ben_vulpes: trb just looks through the script for pubkey or pubkey hash opcodes [14:05]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: 'fleet in being' [14:05]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: and nope. [14:06]
asciilifeform: ^ does not 'just look for sig opcode' [14:06]
asciilifeform: sadly. [14:06]
asciilifeform: implements good chunk of shitoshi's liquishit. [14:06]
ben_vulpes: ah, i must misremember. [14:06]
ben_vulpes: perhaps i am thinking of isMine? [14:06]
asciilifeform: to revisit upstack : yes, it is possible to implement ecdsa in constant space. after all, the sigs are of constant size, and the payload is maxed at 10,000Bt. [14:07]
asciilifeform: but no, i have not done this. [14:07]
asciilifeform: perhaps ben_vulpes -- will do it. [14:07]
ben_vulpes: doubtful [14:08]
asciilifeform: currently i suspect that a complete btctron can fit in 10k-line of ada. [14:09]
asciilifeform: but it remains, to demonstrate experimentally. [14:09]
asciilifeform: it is less useful per se, than as a demonstration of principle. [14:09]
asciilifeform: e.g. that it is possible to operate on a thing of bitcoin's complexity, in constant space AND time [14:10]
asciilifeform: (or at the very least, in ~predictably~ nonconstant time) [14:10]
asciilifeform: and with well-defined behaviour, in ALL cases. [14:10]
asciilifeform: (i.e. demonstrably nonoverflowable, nonhangable.) [14:10]
asciilifeform: some example snips : << handling of shitoshi's var-ints [14:13]
ben_vulpes: oh neat [14:13]
asciilifeform: << handling btc transactions to/from traditional/sane formats [14:16]
asciilifeform: etc. [14:16]
asciilifeform: ( several routines used but not included, this is not meant to be runnable genesis, but to show flavour ) [14:17]
mircea_popescu: the principle is very useful, yes. [14:17]
asciilifeform: tested, btw, by taking a multitude of blocks (from eatblock), parsing'em in, then back out, and diff. [14:18]
asciilifeform: (identical.) [14:18]
asciilifeform: then afterwards by fuzzing, e.g. crafting shitoshivarints that want to overrun arrays [14:18]
asciilifeform: this does 0 , because bounds checking, and we in fact learn where. [14:19]
asciilifeform: aaaand eventually the thing can get a correctness proof. [14:20]
asciilifeform: but this comes -- later. [14:20]
asciilifeform: !!up adlai [14:25]
deedbot: adlai voiced for 30 minutes. [14:25]
adlai: << Transactions'MAX_BLOCK_LENGTH oughtta be 1MiB = 10^6 [14:25]
asciilifeform: eagle eye, adlai , [14:25]
asciilifeform: ahha he got it. [14:26]
asciilifeform: indeed it is a decimal (hdd maker's) 'megabyte'. [14:26]
asciilifeform: see also mircea_popescu's 'magic numbers' article. [14:27]
* asciilifeform idly wonders how many folx who implemented 'btc protocol' also used 'the wrong megabyte' [14:31]
asciilifeform: the other constants, i looked up, but this one, naively memorized as 'megabyte'... [14:32]
asciilifeform: but overall folx oughta remember mircea_popescu's observation from c3, that any attempt to reimplement ye olde grandfather's pistol from scratch, will almost certainly have at least one lethal 'accepts something the old -- would not' defect. [14:40]
asciilifeform: which is not necessarily as fixable as 'fix the constant' [14:41]
mircea_popescu: i thought we're pretty much aware it's 1000000, but anytway [14:41]
mircea_popescu: vaguely recall this being discussed round the original crisis. [14:42]
asciilifeform: decimal mb, wtf, srsly. [14:42]
asciilifeform: what does somebody have to smoke, to think of it. [14:42]
mircea_popescu: way ofg the windows. [14:43]
ben_vulpes: and to continue the thread , [14:49]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-29 00:18 mircea_popescu: << we did I take it ? [14:49]
mircea_popescu: lel [14:49]
* shinohai takes note of ben_vulpes new interest, vows to find irl doggy girls to suit .... [15:01]
ben_vulpes: find me an office slut, shinohai [15:03]
trinque: that second one just seems like she's on coke [15:04]
phf: i thought you need an office for an office slut [15:04]
ben_vulpes: hey just because i fired everyone doesn't mean i'm not wandering around naked in the cavernous echo chamber of my own delusion every day [15:04]
shinohai: Wanted: One office slut. Must be flexible, fit under desks, and be able to emulate canine behaviours. No collar required. [15:05]
phf: i sort of assume that people who quit job to be with family look and act like derek ireland at the end of one of his yoga videos [15:06]
mircea_popescu: lel phf crits [15:06]
mircea_popescu: 's teh problem, he can just turn part of the corvette into an office! [15:06]
mircea_popescu: phf ? [15:08]
ben_vulpes: corvette's too cramped to even get road head in halfway conveniently [15:08]
trinque: corvette activites are meant to be done on the hood [15:09]
ben_vulpes: duh hoy [15:09]
phf: mircea_popescu: [15:09]
ben_vulpes: shinohai: honestly the only canine behaviors i really want are "sit" and "shut up" [15:09]
trinque: !~bash 1 [15:09]
jhvh1: Last 1 lines bashed and pending publication [15:09]
mircea_popescu: i much prefer fetch. [15:10]
ben_vulpes: no chewing the mail though [15:11]
ben_vulpes: chewing the /male/ though... [15:11]
* mircea_popescu has girls out fetching things lamost continuously. [15:11]
mircea_popescu: and in fairness i dun think i have to bid anyoine shut up once a week. [15:11]
ben_vulpes: you've been at it, what, a decade and a half at this point? [15:12]
mircea_popescu: just about. [15:12]
mircea_popescu: the merit is mostly the girls'. [15:12]
ben_vulpes: magical self-training harem [15:12]
phf: i think "sit" and "shut up" is aspirational. when you're at that point, you kind of want something practical out [15:12]
ben_vulpes: phf: mhm ya think? [15:13]
ben_vulpes: but also those are just the canine behaviors, neh? [15:13]
mircea_popescu: phf word. [15:14]
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes notrly. i mean i dunno, to my eyes the whole "dog as pet" thing is kinda inept. get a hunting dog, go hunting with it, suddenly it's a lot more respectable an animal. [15:14]
phf: well, it's a telling selection of canine behaviors is my point. my dog was a lot more useful than "sit" and "shut up" [15:15]
mircea_popescu: dog-pets work fine for 5 to maybe 11 or 12yo boys, but this mostly because the kid will pull its ears etc. [15:15]
trinque: guy was possibly making a joke [15:15]
ben_vulpes: i don't find any of you funny either [15:15]
mircea_popescu: no quarter for joeks! this is srs bzns!!1 [15:15]
trinque: lol [15:15]
trinque: but yes, kind of like these folks that never put anything in the back of their truck [15:16]
trinque: "maybe you're the mini cooper type..." [15:16]
mircea_popescu: "this truck shoulda been a limo amirite" [15:16]
ben_vulpes: canine also high value spawn innoculator [15:17]
trinque: read: lol there is poop in my mouth [15:17]
mircea_popescu: o.O [15:17]
ben_vulpes: stretch pickup: [15:17]
trinque: oh god, the regular extended cab is bad enough. [15:17]
ben_vulpes: trinque: there is poop everywhere [15:19]
mircea_popescu: he has a point though, there's good reason kids should be raised with puppies not kittenbs. [15:20]
ben_vulpes: moreover one large reason americans are so sick is a dangerous obsession with the sterile living environment. [15:20]
mircea_popescu: this is up to a point unavoidable -- the cheaper synthetics they use, especially fibers, stink. [15:21]
ben_vulpes: take 'em outside, roll them in dirt, make sure they eat some. [15:21]
ben_vulpes: what does the stink have to do with the sterility obsession? [15:21]
ben_vulpes: or is this in re the fragrance obsession [15:21]
trinque: also vs [15:21]
deedbot: << Trilema - Stop being so fucking poor! [15:22]
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes well you gotta keep the bacteria away. [15:22]
ben_vulpes: trinque: oh boy i gotta show you "Master Vulpes and His Hound" some day [15:22]
mircea_popescu: let's consider a simple illustration : normal milk going sour becomes a different kind of aliment - sour milk. usian milk going sour becomes this utterly bitter horror. [15:22]
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: i don't follow the connection between the 'stinky' synthetic fabrics and the bacteria [15:23]
asciilifeform: not long ago i walked to post office along different, for no good reason, path, to mail a FG, and saw the largest and most impressive dog i ever saw [15:23]
mircea_popescu: what do you think makes things stink ben_vulpes ?! [15:23]
asciilifeform: he was in his own yard, even, 3 metre iron fence on all sides [15:23]
asciilifeform: hound of the baskervilles. [15:23]
mircea_popescu: didja pat it ? :D [15:23]
asciilifeform: made a quite respectable sound, would not sound out of place in a zoo. [15:23]
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: i dunno, you implied the stink came from the synthetics alone! [15:24]
asciilifeform: i did not put hand in, no. [15:24]
mircea_popescu: all things "that stink" are your brain identifying the metabolic byproduct of bacterial life and knowing from experience their presence doesn't mix well with your continued existence. [15:24]
mircea_popescu: plastics make a splendid substrate for bacteria, much better than anything else. [15:24]
ben_vulpes: aah [15:24]
mircea_popescu: moreover it selects for unfriendly kinds of bacteria (hence the milk example -- tho0ugh there the uht process does the selection) [15:25]
mircea_popescu: so you're up to a certain point stuck overwashing once you buy the plastic angle. [15:25]
ben_vulpes: heh and this ocmpounds, because now your kids don't have an immune system because your surfaces are overcolonized (and with the most ahistorical of populations at that), so not only do you have to clean the stink away but also keep ~everything out of the kid's mouths. [15:27]
mircea_popescu: much like opting to have a natural compost pile in a shady spot in the garden instead of fertilizer and "modern our democracy" will result in a much better ecosystem, with birds and earthworms and so on just like a good cheese and yogurt diet rather than taking peptobismol will result in a happier digestion just so havinga house full of linens rather than nylons will result in a much happier overal environment to live in, [15:27]
mircea_popescu: with fewer cunt rashes etc. [15:27]
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes yes. [15:27]
mircea_popescu: 2nd and 3rd order effects are even more important than the direct [15:27]
mircea_popescu: (3rd order : the best fungicide is... bacteria. the best antiseptic is... bacteria. that's why your skin stays healthy -- you are covered by your friends.) [15:28]
ben_vulpes: funny how all manifestations of modernity look alike. entertain even a smidge of wokeness and you'll wake up in trans camp. [15:28]
mircea_popescu: myeah. [15:28]
asciilifeform: i have said this before, but everyday life in usa makes the good doktor mengele's stitch-his-head-to-his-arse look like harmless hobby [15:28]
mircea_popescu: by now there's just too many of these small and "in itself defensible" idiocies piled up. [15:29]
asciilifeform: half a billion bonsaikittens. [15:29]
asciilifeform: ( incl. per ) [15:29]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-24 20:47 asciilifeform: << orlol discussed this, and it was 100% true, 'homo americanus' has some very serious damage that is very expensive to build prosthesis for -- he has no family , no friends, no one will lend him money other than at extortionate rates, has no one alive whom he could live with in small hut, 5 to 10 sq. metres, without killing one another [15:29]
ben_vulpes: yo ho yo ho, a caravan life for me [15:30]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: possibly misbounded quoteblock in latest trilema [15:32]
asciilifeform: ( ) [15:32]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform missing ~ to properly indicate authorsheep [15:35]
ben_vulpes: in other non-solutions: [17:24]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i never understood 'vpn service' -- why not hire a cheapo commercial linux box and route whateverses through it. [17:35]
asciilifeform: y'know -- with hands [17:35]
ben_vulpes: why hands when mathematica lets you do it with arse! [17:35]
asciilifeform: as in [17:35]
CompanionCube: asciilifeform: presumably because they are too lazy for that [17:36]
CompanionCube: or want a turnkey hands-off solution [17:36]
asciilifeform: it ain't like you have to write sshd from scratch. [17:36]
CompanionCube: nope, but from their perspective it may as well be. Not that I'd agree though. [17:36]
phf: y'all never tried configuring openvpn [17:37]
asciilifeform: i did, actually, it was a misery [17:37]
phf: i suspect back in the day it allowed vendors to optimize for usage patterns. "unlimited traffic vpn" vs running it on a tightly metered box [17:39]
trinque: tincd also misery [17:39]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: frightening heathen pit, btw, that site. [17:40]
* CompanionCube hasn't used tincd as a VPN-to-the-internet, only as a virtual LAN equivalent. [17:41]
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: indubitably. [17:41]
CompanionCube: it looks almost exactly like Medium. Are you sure it isn't? [17:41]
ben_vulpes: "software developers must save our privacy" and other such nonsense [17:42]
ben_vulpes: CompanionCube: five bucks says it is [17:42]
asciilifeform: >> lul, btw >> [17:42]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-29 17:13 deedbot: << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1523...9893 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <> ' ( RO IS) [17:42]
asciilifeform: >> 'e to thee, Osiris, Lord of eternity, King of the Gods, whose names are manifold, whose forms are holy, thou being of hidden form in the temples, whose Ka is holy. ...' [17:43]
CompanionCube: did you take that as me saying it's not Medium [17:43]
asciilifeform: >> 'Avocatura este tot atat de veche ca si magistratura, tot atat de [17:43]
asciilifeform: nobila ca si virtutea, tot atat de necesara ca si justitia' [17:43]
CompanionCube: because I was saying that it either was or is a deliberate clone [17:43]
asciilifeform: CompanionCube: certainly looks quite like it. [17:44]
CompanionCube: found in the DOM: '<script charset="UTF-8" src="" async=""></script>' [17:44]
asciilifeform: lol! [17:44]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: complete with a 'basic income' article. [17:45]
ben_vulpes: hey basic income is happening [17:45]
asciilifeform: and 'end to end encryption' crapolade, and other mandatory pravda [17:46]
ben_vulpes: giant towers with water, calories and internet piped directly to the basics [17:46]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: iirc it already happens, but you gotta paint yerself black 1st [17:46]
ben_vulpes: nah, not the same at all [17:47]
asciilifeform: how not [17:49]
ben_vulpes: there are conditions beyond "being black" [17:52]
asciilifeform: the 'let's give EVERYBODY $income' thing goes beyond mere retardation make the folx who play lotteries, and even pyramids, look brilliant. at least ~somebody~ wins, in a pyramid [17:53]
asciilifeform: ( the other funny detail, it certainly ain't ~everyone~ who'd get payola. certainly not dirty kulaks. ) [17:56]
asciilifeform: pretty lulzy stealth-dekulakization scheme. [17:56]
asciilifeform: 'we won't take even 1$ from you -- we'll simply give 1$ to everyone not-you.' [17:57]
phf: the obamacare strategy [17:57]
ben_vulpes: obamacare took plenty from me [17:58]
asciilifeform: ^ [17:58]
ben_vulpes: dilution of the dollar to pay for encampment of takers i'm hedged against [17:58]
ben_vulpes: taxation and forced-purchase-of-bunk-paper, not so much. [17:59]
asciilifeform: phun phakt : tax rate in north kr is... [17:59]
asciilifeform: 0. [17:59]
ben_vulpes: and? [18:00]
asciilifeform: they still charge tax, it simply gets rolled into electric bill, etc. [18:00]
phf: ben_vulpes: i'm sure there's some ideological angle where two are not the same, but from where i sit... [18:01]
ben_vulpes: phf: not ideological, financial! you can hedge against devaluation. what is the hedge against moar taxes? [18:02]
BingoBoingo: << There are many kinds of faux granite from inkjet printed plastic to rocks and resin simulation [18:03]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-29 16:42 mircea_popescu: possibly we're talking of two things. [18:03]
phf: ben_vulpes: if your hendging against devaluation happens in bezzle terms, but your more tax is the "guberment done it", than this distinction makes sense. i don't think that in reality more tax just happens, it's a process by which devaluation graph gets readjusted [18:08]
asciilifeform: waitasec didn't we have this exact thread last week [18:09]
ben_vulpes: liink? [18:11]
asciilifeform: can't seem to find -- maybe i dreamed it. [18:12]
asciilifeform: but there was that old mircea_popescu thread. where, approx, 'a dollar usg collects from mr.pleb in tax isn't so that usg can spend a dollar, it can spend $trillion, or ten, without collecting anything it collects the dollar because otherwise mr.pleb will use it to bid up turkeys' [18:15]
asciilifeform: bidding up, e.g., cardboard houses, or better still, ornate paper -- things of which no conceivable shortage exists, or could ever begin to exist -- is , notice, a-ok by lizard lights. [18:20]
phf: it's the diff between bezzle and tide. tax increase happens in sync with devaluation because otherwise you discover that there's not enough aspirin. [18:20]
asciilifeform: ^ aha, what i just said [18:21]
phf: i don't think aspirin though is a good example, because "obviously" there aren't any aspirin shortages. likewise there are obviously no housing shortages, doctor shortages, etc. etc. [18:29]
asciilifeform: re shortages, lulzy trend in washington region of building block after block after block of cardboard condo towers ~which then stand dark, for years on end~ continues [18:30]
trinque: how chinese [18:30]
asciilifeform: process is not in any way plugged into 'is anybody buying' loop [18:30]
asciilifeform: and they still 'cost' 400-700k usd , even when 1000s stand dark. [18:30]
asciilifeform: every time i walk by these, i wonder if they even have plumbing fixtures, mains sockets, etc [18:31]
asciilifeform: or simply cardboard box. [18:32]
asciilifeform: (why waste money installing these 'useless' parts, when they aren't needed?) [18:32]
asciilifeform: perhaps on the rare occasions someone buys -- they get one of the 1-2 units in the bldg that has'em [18:32]
asciilifeform: 'on demand' [18:33]
asciilifeform: point being, a mighty fine and historically effective way to relieve plebs of excess dough is -- artificial shortages [18:34]
asciilifeform: ( in '90s ru, rumours of massive warehouses where cheese rotted, milk soured, meat fed maggots -- proliferated. and i'm quite convinced they are not baseless. ) [18:34]
asciilifeform: in '30s usa -- they burned crops. [18:35]
asciilifeform: ( modern lizards, i picture, understood -- correctly -- that if these bovines didn't take to arms and burn down the capital when crops were burned in the '30s -- they certainly won't revolt today. ) [18:39]
phf: i still think that the reason is that there are no lizards in a recognizable form (i.e. the 1984, hugo boss clad), it's all a chomsky style dependency graph, and the complexity so high, micro level so varied, that nobody can make sense of it [18:43]
asciilifeform: eh soros is still around buffett et al [18:43]
asciilifeform: nobody cancelled the petro-kings of saud, either [18:44]
asciilifeform: ( incidentally, gotta wonder, why can't asciilifeform buy a vinylon suit ? ) [18:45]
phf: same reason you can't buy запаÑÐ¾Ð¶ÐµÑ [18:50]
phf: oh ffs, i gotta fix my client [18:50]
asciilifeform: бнопня вхрюк [18:50]
phf: zaporozhets [18:51]
asciilifeform: mno. [18:51]
asciilifeform: << thread. [18:52]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-29 03:39 asciilifeform: phunphakt : the only synthetic cloth fiber that isn't shit ( as, e.g., nylon : flammable, melts on skin, crumbling under sunlight, etc ) is made in... north kr! >> [18:52]
asciilifeform: superior in every respect a man might give half a shit about, to what's available in 'civilized' world. [18:52]
asciilifeform: ( yes it can't be painted. but also shows 0 dirt, laughs at uv, acids, bases, solvents, fire. ) [18:53]
phf: well, "a man might give half a shit about". you're talking about GOST style global optimization "plant makes same material for parachutes and fasihonable summer dresses" [18:53]
phf: it's same reason why every american has an inflatable plastic mattress for guests, but not a raskladushka [18:57]
asciilifeform: right now we have, de facto, opposite, 'man's coat is made from same faux silk gurl's panties are made from', 'so what if it melts into your skin in a fire', 'so what if sunlight dissolves it, so much the better for AmerikaGreatAgain' [18:57]
asciilifeform: phf: and plastic car, etc [18:58]
phf: correct, that's the 80s "choice" that was made, you either get zvezdniy gorodok or jeens [18:58]
asciilifeform: they would have plastic cocks, if they could. [18:58]
asciilifeform: 'generation that chose pepsi' (tm)(r) [18:58]
ben_vulpes: are y'all going to just skip right over the anti-combustible chemicals with which nearly every new thing is impregnated these days? [18:59]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: another thing you dun need in vinylon... [18:59]
ben_vulpes: tell me something i don't know [19:00]
phf: imo the problem is not the chosen product, but the mechanism by which the choice was made (and is continously remade in many micro instances) [19:01]
asciilifeform: 'choice' [19:01]
ben_vulpes: aaah i had a cot for many years! [19:01]
asciilifeform: oblignaggum, [19:01]
a111: Logged on 2013-12-22 16:56 asciilifeform: 'what people “want” is a function of what they learn is available. e.g., do Americans want three-ring binders, and Europeans four-ring binders? or do they want binders and take whatever number of holes they come with? or do they want something that can help them organize their papers and take whatever is available? or do they really want a less cluttered office and ease of storage and retrieval of the infor [19:01]
ben_vulpes: army surplus thing, was amazing until i handled it roughly packing up from a burn and bent one of the struts. [19:01]
ben_vulpes: i imagine there's some "oh no, you couldn't possibly imagine the superiority of the su raskladushka" inbound [19:02]
asciilifeform: i slept on one for 1st decade of life [19:02]
asciilifeform: it was steel, quite indestructible [19:02]
asciilifeform: for some reason parents called it a 'chopper' [19:03]
asciilifeform: (вертолет) [19:03]
phf: ben_vulpes: nah it was a piece of shit. i got one from walmart and it's pretty good. advantage though was that you could repair it for years, and since there was only ~one~ type, you could also replace parts for years, etc. [19:04]
asciilifeform: there were aluminum ones, pieces'o'shit, aha, i have one even here [19:04]
ben_vulpes: phf: some days i dream of making a car like that [19:04]
asciilifeform: and yeah if you have a hammer -- repairs [19:04]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: speaking of which, tell me, how come i can't buy a car where if it dents, i can just take off a panel and put in new one ? [19:05]
asciilifeform: with bolts. [19:05]
asciilifeform: and then re-flatten old one - with hammer, on anvil. [19:05]
asciilifeform: or, say, where the bumper is OF RUBBER [19:05]
asciilifeform: like a motherfucking bumper ought to be. [19:05]
phf: ben_vulpes: that was my zaporozhets comment. ultimate piece of shit car, with the main perk: can be repaired in a shortages economy [19:06]
phf: everything down to the engine [19:06]
phf: "working class car for working class people" etc. [19:07]
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: fashion, unfortunately. [19:07]
ben_vulpes: modern car loses 90% of value after 5 years and 100kmi, an industrial piece like a freightliner loses at most 70% after a decade and A MILLION MILES [19:08]
* ben_vulpes has a shirt awaiting deconstruction into patterns sitting at home [19:08]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: do you remember mircea_popescu's article about his friend who went to usa and tried to build a house of stone ? [19:08]
asciilifeform: and nearly jailed [19:09]
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: no, link? [19:09]
asciilifeform: again 0 result from search [19:10]
asciilifeform: lessee if mircea_popescu recalls, when he wakesup [19:10]
asciilifeform: there's also, e.g., [19:11]
asciilifeform: !#s ethacridine [19:11]
a111: 4 results for "ethacridine", [19:11]
asciilifeform: countless examples. [19:11]
asciilifeform: su 'everyday' good, that's either unknown -- or banned -- in 'free' world. [19:11]
asciilifeform: ( speaking even strictly of technologies, not even touching on subjs such as children free to walk around on their own, to make explosives, etc ) [19:13]
phf: asciilifeform: [19:16]
* phf cackles [19:16]
asciilifeform: aaah [19:16]
asciilifeform: iirc the boy drank to death in '90s. [19:17]
ben_vulpes: what even is this [19:18]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: nostalgatron from home planet. [19:18]
ben_vulpes: looks great [19:19]
asciilifeform: << a not wholly barfalicious transl. [19:19]
asciilifeform: 5 of'em, even. [19:20]
asciilifeform: i can already picture mircea_popescu's barfometer redzoning, tho. [19:21]
CompanionCube: I think the video is from this: [19:22]
asciilifeform: well yes [19:23]
asciilifeform: from where else. [19:23]
asciilifeform: and lol, i had nfi it had an english pedipage. [19:23]
ben_vulpes: silly me, i thought the movie was called "nostalgatron from home planet" [19:23]
asciilifeform: lol! [19:23]
ben_vulpes: lol taaki got locked up for fighting in syria? [19:25]
asciilifeform: waiawt [19:25]
asciilifeform: where [19:25]
ben_vulpes: [19:26]
asciilifeform: lol! [19:26]
ben_vulpes: "When Taaki reached the camp on the Syrian side of the border, he says, he tried to explain to the elderly officer in charge that he’d come to Rojava to offer his tech skills in one of Rojava’s cities, not to fight. But as Taaki tells it, the man waved away his protests and conscripted him into a unit with the other foreigners." [19:27]
ben_vulpes: oh god i know conde nasty is persona non grata but this is gold [19:27]
asciilifeform: << subj, apparently [19:28]
asciilifeform: and for all i know -- whole thing is disinfo [19:29]
ben_vulpes: did he always have a paunch? [19:29]
ben_vulpes: definitely some amount of "no leaving the states, pleb" in action, sure [19:29]
asciilifeform: no leaving, everybody understands but why did idiot COME BACK [19:30]
asciilifeform: srsly, once you made it out of monkeystan, found work (soldiering is honest work), whythefuck COME BACK omfg [19:30]
ben_vulpes: "found the west calling to him" [19:31]
phf: aka where the white women at [19:31]
asciilifeform: ain't the kurd army supposed to have chix in it [19:31]
asciilifeform: wasn't that the whole point, of joining. [19:32]
ben_vulpes: girl who said she'd get him reassigned bought the farm [19:32]
ben_vulpes: and in other wonders of "ai": [19:32]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: see also . [19:33]
a111: Logged on 2016-01-26 17:20 ascii_butugychag: (there was a spiffy talk at shmoo, which mentioned how nn used in image recognition usually imprints on what - to a human - would be an entirely accidental cluster of pixels, and if you flip'em, it will recognize an obvious, e.g,. cat, as a refrigerator, etc) [19:33]
asciilifeform: old noose. [19:33]
asciilifeform: 'And Taaki began to believe that returning to the UK and completing Dark Wallet’s development would allow him to help Rojava better use bitcoin as a fundraising tool, one that would circumvent the US and EU sanctions that prevent any funds from being transferred into Syria.' << wat. [19:38]
CompanionCube: why would you want to to the *UK* for that [19:38]
CompanionCube: it has pretty shitty laws for that kind of thing. See: RIPA. [19:38]
asciilifeform: whole yard makes ~0 sense. [19:38]
asciilifeform: *yarn [19:38]
CompanionCube: fuck, even the US'd be a better place. There there isn't a law that literally states you must disclose encryption keys on-demand. [19:39]
ben_vulpes: you still get locked up for not complying, CompanionCube. [19:40]
ben_vulpes: "contempt of court" most recently. [19:40]
asciilifeform: !#s coke machine [19:41]
a111: 62 results for "coke machine", [19:41]
asciilifeform: nobody's even counting the de-facto lifers who won't give password to inquisitor. [19:41]
asciilifeform: any moar. [19:41]
asciilifeform: longest is, what, 7 yrs now? [19:41]
asciilifeform: 8? [19:41]
asciilifeform: less time than many folx in, e.g., ru, do for murder. [19:42]
* trinque would read an asciilifeform sci-fi short on coke machine. [19:50]
trinque: would fit nicely into mircea_popescu's future dystopia [19:50]
asciilifeform: << thread, for n00bz [19:51]
a111: Logged on 2015-09-25 20:10 ascii_field: this is precisely the condition needed for the coke machine [19:51]
asciilifeform: << possibly the 1st mention. [19:54]
a111: Logged on 2015-06-24 17:28 ascii_field: it will be replaced - question of ~when~, not ~if~ - by something like an oubliette with a vending machine [19:54]
phf: coke machine story should be set in the same universe/time as the pgp key story [19:56]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu was right, imho, tho, it wouldn't make good story, 0 element of 'future' in it [19:57]
asciilifeform: quite boringly familiar [19:57]
asciilifeform: 'exactly like 2017 but with slightly more automation' [19:57]
asciilifeform: << ~moar~ time, lol [20:02]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-29 23:42 asciilifeform: less time than many folx in, e.g., ru, do for murder. [20:02]
phf: [20:07]
phf: i think i should go back to just pasting titles tho [20:08]
asciilifeform: 'Italy could soon offer menstrual leave Parliament is considering a bill that, if approved, would require employers to grant women three days of paid leave every month.' << from same rag [20:08]
asciilifeform: 'TTC delays launch of anti-harassment app The "Safe TTC" app will allow passengers to report harassment, assault, vandalism, and other offences.' << from same rag.. [20:09]
asciilifeform: pretty great. [20:09]
trinque: I'd thought that perhaps coke machines are what patrol looking for folks outside their VR wombs. [21:00]
mircea_popescu: << i lollered. ftr, baroul suceava = the bar association of suceava county. [21:22]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-29 21:43 asciilifeform: >> 'Avocatura este tot atat de veche ca si magistratura, tot atat de [21:22]
ben_vulpes: menstrual leave! [21:23]
ben_vulpes: amazing [21:23]
mircea_popescu: << this is a lulzy notion. if you could hedge against such a wonder, the lido'd still be a thing. [21:25]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-29 22:02 ben_vulpes: phf: not ideological, financial! you can hedge against devaluation. what is the hedge against moar taxes? [21:25]
mircea_popescu: << called sterilization of currency. especially relevant when you know, foreign devils show up with botload of gold. [21:26]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-29 22:15 asciilifeform: but there was that old mircea_popescu thread. where, approx, 'a dollar usg collects from mr.pleb in tax isn't so that usg can spend a dollar, it can spend $trillion, or ten, without collecting anything it collects the dollar because otherwise mr.pleb will use it to bid up turkeys' [21:26]
mircea_popescu: << pretty sure you can buy that [21:28]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-29 22:51 phf: zaporozhets [21:28]
mircea_popescu: << you'd much enjoy cairo. [21:33]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-29 23:05 asciilifeform: and then re-flatten old one - with hammer, on anvil. [21:33]
mircea_popescu: << boats actually GAIN value in about 1/3 of their years. [21:33]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-29 23:08 ben_vulpes: modern car loses 90% of value after 5 years and 100kmi, an industrial piece like a freightliner loses at most 70% after a decade and A MILLION MILES [21:33]
mircea_popescu: re [21:35]
a111: Logged on 2014-03-04 22:05 mircea_popescu: which means, concrete foundation, brick walls [21:35]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-29 23:10 asciilifeform: lessee if mircea_popescu recalls, when he wakesup [21:35]
mircea_popescu: << to be beaten into a pulp for being the obnoxious sort of fag who'd bitch at djb about someone touching him / listen to depeche mode / etcetera... [21:36]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-29 23:13 asciilifeform: ( speaking even strictly of technologies, not even touching on subjs such as children free to walk around on their own, to make explosives, etc ) [21:36]
mircea_popescu: << well this is certainly a damn sight better than "coding" [21:38]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-29 23:26 ben_vulpes: [21:38]
mircea_popescu: << all i can say is doh, as well as [21:41]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-29 23:32 ben_vulpes: and in other wonders of "ai": [21:41]
a111: Logged on 2016-01-12 19:24 mircea_popescu: as someone once said, "their tricks work for them only a short distance of their run, and for us the whole run." [21:41]
mircea_popescu: << because he lived off the overgenerous uk dole his entire life. [21:42]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-29 23:38 CompanionCube: why would you want to to the *UK* for that [21:42]
mircea_popescu: very deeply fucking related. [21:42]
mircea_popescu: << in that case at least. [21:44]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-30 00:08 phf: i think i should go back to just pasting titles tho [21:44]
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> phf: and plastic car, etc << Plastic car's not so bad. When plastic fails replace with metal and slowly get metal car [22:04]
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> ben_vulpes: speaking of which, tell me, how come i can't buy a car where if it dents, i can just take off a panel and put in new one ? << I have exactly this fucking thing. Also most incidents that would dent metal don't dent. [22:06]
mircea_popescu: << item that convinces the wise curve25519 is utterly unsafe. [22:06]
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> and then re-flatten old one - with hammer, on anvil. << Oh, there's the catch [22:07]
* BingoBoingo probably ought to update section in his copy of L-Series Haynes manual on "special connectors" with up to date "special connectors. [22:12]
mod6: this mso1104Z-s is pretty sweet [23:09]
shinohai: You got it in already mog? o.O [23:24]
shinohai: * mod6 [23:24]
mod6: yuuup [23:30]
mod6: ima have to dig in a bit tomorrow. [23:30]
pete_dushenski: << what you really want is a citroen! [23:34]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-29 23:05 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: speaking of which, tell me, how come i can't buy a car where if it dents, i can just take off a panel and put in new one ? [23:34]
pete_dushenski: not for sale in north america but you probably already guessed that it's a shithole anyways [23:34]
pete_dushenski: << ubercheap lease rates are actually predicated on absurdly high residuals and so are resulting in cars that are losing only 40% after 3 years. this is a bigger problem in the states than, say, uk. but still an increasingly noticeable phenomenon for manufacturers and dealers to prop up new sales figures in the face of a secular decline in interest. [23:37]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-29 23:08 ben_vulpes: modern car loses 90% of value after 5 years and 100kmi, an industrial piece like a freightliner loses at most 70% after a decade and A MILLION MILES [23:37]
pete_dushenski: << heh. exactly this. i thought these kids and their 'bitcoin embassy' died in 2013. apparently still around doing who knows the fuck what. having 'meetups' with increasingly aged and decrepit demographics no doubt. [23:42]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-29 06:33 mircea_popescu: "we represent the whole world*!!!" * as understood by whatever 3rd echelon bureaucrat in the us dept of our democracy that "handles" "canada". [23:42]
pete_dushenski: in other sanities, having a business dispute ? don't look to the fiat bureacracy for help ("In Brooklyn’s Kosher Pizza War, Modern Tastes Battle Ancient Law") [23:46]
asciilifeform: << nonsense. i see 1) curved panels 2) not held on with external bolts [23:52]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-30 03:34 pete_dushenski: << what you really want is a citroen! [23:52]
pete_dushenski: but no dents, you see [23:53]
asciilifeform: i see places where you could dent it. [23:53]
asciilifeform: and it'll stay dented. [23:53]
asciilifeform: so snore. [23:53]
asciilifeform: the hypothetical subj would look something like a t34 [23:54]
pete_dushenski: this is like seeing girl with freckly "see pete, not perfect!" [23:54]
asciilifeform: not a frufru shitmobile. [23:54]
pete_dushenski: freckle* [23:54]
pete_dushenski: so buy t34. metal. whatyouwant. [23:54]
asciilifeform: well, more btr than t [23:55]
asciilifeform: but you get the idea. [23:55]
pete_dushenski: oh but you want to afford it ? well, buy citroen [23:55]
asciilifeform: flat iron sheets. [23:55]
pete_dushenski: not for plebs like us, sorry. golden toilet budget only. [23:55]
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: whole point would be to piss on the fashionista faggotry and get a cheap, practical, repairable (yes, they lied to you, CAN have all 3) machine. [23:56]
pete_dushenski: cheap ironmobile ? lolz [23:57]
pete_dushenski: this is planet3, yes ? [23:57]
pete_dushenski: there aren't enough alfs on this rock for cheap ironmobiles with 'all 3' [23:58]
pete_dushenski: some scale (and assembly) required [23:59]
asciilifeform: su cars -- were of iron. [23:59]
asciilifeform: just like old american ones. [23:59]
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