Forum logs for 14 Jun 2016

Monday, 16 March, Year 12 d.Tr. | Author:
asciilifeform: phf: point was to separate 'i found this' from the 'and then i changed x,y,....' [00:00]
mircea_popescu: no such separation is desired. moreover, breaking the tree is outright catastrophic. [00:00]
asciilifeform: how the fuck does it 'break the tree' [00:00]
asciilifeform: i dun get it. [00:00]
phf: well, yes, that's the intent, but i'm saying that i'm not sure there's value in "i found this" when it breaks "i make this part of whole" [00:00]
mircea_popescu: but understand this clearly alf : the difference between "i produced this" and "i stole this from washington" is nil. if you stole it or wrote it - YOU PRODUCED IT. [00:01]
mircea_popescu: world is not worth the mention. [00:01]
phf: well, it attempts to solve same problem that the vectors were solving, i.e. introducing code that you're not ready to reasonably support [00:01]
asciilifeform: it is worth the mention when somebody else steals precisely same thing (because it was, say, hamlet) and stands a patch on ~it~ [00:01]
mircea_popescu: hardly. you sign yours, he signs his and that's that. [00:02]
asciilifeform: then we can see that my item and his have ~same~ antecedent. [00:02]
mircea_popescu: yes, ie, genesis. [00:02]
mircea_popescu: there may not be any such "we see". if both you and him introduce "item x", the only approach is to read both. [00:02]
asciilifeform: if diff x1 x2 is nil, then NOPE [00:03]
asciilifeform: no need to 'read both'. [00:03]
mircea_popescu: why'd someone make a new 0 diff patch instead of signing yours ? [00:03]
mircea_popescu: this is pretty crummy behaviour. [00:03]
asciilifeform: because he had nfi i existed ? [00:03]
asciilifeform: and stole hamlet on his own ? [00:03]
mircea_popescu: ignorance of the patches is scant defense. [00:04]
asciilifeform: imho mircea_popescu is catastrophically missing the point re the genesis thing: [00:05]
asciilifeform: i will give example [00:05]
mircea_popescu: aite. [00:05]
asciilifeform: 'ffz', item i am working on now, is the finite field integer library. [00:06]
asciilifeform: it uses nothing previously existing, and will be a genesis in any possible tree where it appears. [00:06]
asciilifeform: but not the only genesis! [00:06]
asciilifeform: (what kind of proggy would it be, to have only it as genesis.) [00:06]
mircea_popescu: mno. ffz, a project you are working on now, has its own genesis. IT WILL BE REBASED in any possible tree where it appears. [00:06]
mircea_popescu: you don't get motherfucking #include. [00:06]
mircea_popescu: v exists SPECIFICALLY so you can't "save labour" in this manner. [00:07]
asciilifeform: v is as strong as the hash function [00:07]
asciilifeform: which, if strong, makes it safe in ANY case to '#include' a HASH [00:07]
mircea_popescu: never. [00:07]
mircea_popescu: lazy ass coder people. [00:07]
asciilifeform: whole motherfucking POINT of v [00:07]
mircea_popescu: you want to use a piece of code in your project, YOU REBASE IT. [00:07]
mircea_popescu: no fucking exceptions. [00:07]
asciilifeform: is to NEVER have the idiot duplication of identical shit. [00:07]
mircea_popescu: read the whole thing, rebase the whole thing. copy it by hand in longhand 50 times. [00:07]
asciilifeform: i ain't doing this. [00:07]
asciilifeform: and nobody can make me. [00:08]
mircea_popescu: apparently i wasn't ~missing~ the point eh. [00:08]
asciilifeform: the ~necessary~ reactor rod pulling, and not ONE inch moar. [00:08]
mircea_popescu: reading code is necessary. [00:08]
mircea_popescu: stick to one project at a time, you'll be happy enough that way. [00:08]
asciilifeform: reading code - necessary. [00:08]
asciilifeform: diffing identical filez by hand - idiocy. [00:08]
mircea_popescu: for the record - each piece of code should be read more often than it is used. [00:08]
asciilifeform: here i must agree with mircea_popescu . [00:09]
asciilifeform: (i compulsively re-read own shit) [00:09]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not in the slightest. you ever read a novel TWICE only to discover that hey, i hadsn't gotten it the first time ? [00:09]
asciilifeform: saved my skin many times, this did. [00:09]
asciilifeform: sometimes 10x. [00:09]
mircea_popescu: so then stop hanging on to outdated capitalist dogma that perpetuates the inequality in our society. [00:09]
asciilifeform: but this kind of thing oughta be done ~with thought~ rather than as strange human sacrifice ritual. [00:09]
mircea_popescu: if there's ever going to be an end to rotten meat, is through disallowing the processes that create it in the first place. [00:09]
mircea_popescu: #include got to go. [00:10]
asciilifeform: reread must be a deliberate, conscious act, not 'hail mary' [00:10]
asciilifeform: nothing about 'let's cp this 1,000,001 times because mircea_popescu took away #include' compels intelligent rereading. [00:10]
mircea_popescu: intelligence can not be compelled. [00:11]
mircea_popescu: however, stupidity can be dis-empowered. [00:11]
mircea_popescu: there's not going to be any of this "o mom look at me i r coder too i included shit from github". [00:11]
asciilifeform: this does not come from the machine, but from the meat. [00:12]
mircea_popescu: whether anyone for this reason or for any other starts behaving intelligently is outside of the scope. nevertheless, the dumb behaviour being stomped out is, by my stick, enough. [00:12]
asciilifeform: my point is that mircea_popescu is using very blunt stick. [00:12]
mircea_popescu: so i am. [00:12]
trinque: the include moves concepts from one place to another without enumerating them. it's in that sense a lie by omission [00:13]
asciilifeform: it enumerates [00:13]
mircea_popescu: and for that matter, without UNDERSTANDING them. [00:13]
* trinque is chronically guilty of massive single files of code [00:13]
mircea_popescu: "hey, worx" [00:13]
asciilifeform: by stating the motherfucking hash [00:13]
asciilifeform: is a total enumeration. [00:13]
asciilifeform: for any possible purpose. [00:13]
trinque: the has does not fucking enumerate what it hashed or you could reverse it [00:13]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not so. for instance - fitness of import to codebase is not seriously considered. [00:13]
trinque: it identifies which is totally different [00:13]
asciilifeform: idiot cut and paste lies ~explicitly~ by trying to fool reader into 'x1 and x2 differ' whereas they do not. [00:13]
asciilifeform: have same bitwise identity. [00:13]
mircea_popescu: even the notion of "library" is fucktarded. you take the code and apply it to your needs. [00:14]
asciilifeform: go, apply. by patching. [00:14]
mircea_popescu: rebase-and-patch, sure. [00:14]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform understand : you make zlib. project X uses zlib v 95. project Y uses zlib 94. you move to zlib 99 [00:15]
asciilifeform: i fail to see the point in pretending that x1, x2, x3, ... xn which are BITWISE IDENTICAL are different entities. [00:15]
mircea_popescu: NONE OF THEM LOSES ANYTHING. theyt have your shit rebased properly. [00:15]
mircea_popescu: if they want to add your patches they do. if not - not, and fuck you. [00:15]
mircea_popescu: otherwise you reproduce the shit that ruined linux world. [00:15]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: we are never in any danger of having ~this~ 'include' [00:15]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform two women which are cuntwise identical ARE STILL DIFFERENT. genetics, their future, etc. [00:15]
asciilifeform: their include is BLIND [00:16]
asciilifeform: it has no hash !! [00:16]
asciilifeform: think !! [00:16]
mircea_popescu: so ? [00:16]
mircea_popescu: hash doth not save. [00:16]
asciilifeform: but it does. [00:16]
trinque: I didn't read it I just copied and pasted that hash from shithub [00:16]
asciilifeform: when someone builds on my particular patch, i can never in the future move anything 'from under him' [00:16]
asciilifeform: unlike the idiot 'linux world' include [00:16]
mircea_popescu: ... [00:16]
trinque: doesn't this run directly against your fits-in-head thing? [00:16]
asciilifeform: how ? [00:17]
trinque: because you are considering openssl as the word openssl or whatever function you've imported and it's signature [00:17]
trinque: and not how it actually works [00:17]
trinque: program is too big [00:17]
trinque: you're fucked [00:17]
asciilifeform: trinque: v is specifically about not doing this [00:17]
asciilifeform: we never include 'word openssl' [00:17]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform wouldja think for a minute. if he trusts your key, to get stuff included up to X, he trusts your key, so ends up with stuff included past X also. [00:17]
phf: tinyscheme is very much openssl [00:17]
mircea_popescu: how does he stop your stupid shit at X ? only rebasing does this. [00:17]
asciilifeform: phf: but we DON'T '#include tinyscheme', we include PARTICULAR HASH OF PARTICULAR SNAPSHOT [00:18]
asciilifeform: srsly [00:18]
asciilifeform: what planet have you lot been living on [00:18]
mircea_popescu: this is not the jesus you think it is. [00:18]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: he stops it by taking SPECIFIC HASH, of specific one of my patches! as his antecedent. [00:18]
asciilifeform: nothing that happens after that can possibly affect his proggy [00:18]
mircea_popescu: why not ? v sees patches off the same thing signed by you, imports them. [00:19]
asciilifeform: v as we have it offers NO mechanism for 'and this here file is the longest chain of all of asciilifeform's patches forever' [00:19]
mircea_popescu: ... [00:19]
mircea_popescu: depends on mode, in one mode it builds all the chains it can./ [00:19]
asciilifeform: you can't specify a 'all of asciilifeform's works' as a v-antecedent ! [00:20]
asciilifeform: THIS, if it existed, would be certain doom. [00:20]
asciilifeform: as mircea_popescu describes, with '#include <idiocy.h>' [00:20]
mircea_popescu: i suspect this matter requires more private meditation, because there seems to be relatively little common ground. [00:20]
asciilifeform: i also recommend experimentation. [00:20]
asciilifeform: pop yer favourite text editor, and pick favourite vtron (i recommend mod6's) and play. [00:20]
phf: asciilifeform: i understand that but you're missing what i'm saying. you yourself said that you're not particularly trusting tinyscheme. it has overflow bugs, it has all kinds of issues, and keeping its apartness insulates ~you~ from a certain amount of responsibility. it's no longer serving a purpose as part of a bigger trb patch, now it's this third party "pedigree" thing, that we can sort of rely on, but nobody's responsible for etc. [00:21]
asciilifeform: phf: this is correct. [00:21]
mircea_popescu: ^ [00:21]
mod6: i think both are reasonable. this should be tabled for now for thought-experiment and real-experiment time. [00:21]
mircea_popescu: it is also bullshit. [00:21]
phf: hence openssl [00:21]
trinque: question wasn't (I thought) how V works, it's whether #include is a useful tool or a festering fucking sore [00:21]
asciilifeform: phf: in that sense absolutely [00:22]
trinque: phf: yes [00:22]
trinque: your program *is* one scroll [00:22]
trinque: whether you've structured it as such or not [00:22]
mircea_popescu: you can't fucking have "nice things". deal with it!!11 [00:22]
trinque: why lie [00:22]
asciilifeform: phf: it was specifically labeled as a dangerous toy. for the reason you described. [00:22]
mircea_popescu: i personally never got the idea it's part of trb or anything. seemed to me more like a "alf's other project", sort of like the ffz thing. [00:23]
asciilifeform: trinque: #include <name> is bullshit. #include <HASH> is a reliable tool. [00:23]
mircea_popescu: a reliable tool to lie to management. [00:23]
asciilifeform: nope. [00:23]
asciilifeform: a tool for reusing timeless pieces. [00:23]
mircea_popescu: as phf explains above, and as i've tried to. [00:23]
mircea_popescu: there is no such thing. [00:23]
mircea_popescu: again : you can't fucking have "nice things". [00:23]
trinque: it is a fucking lie the category within which you're enumerating symbols is not delimited by file [00:23]
asciilifeform: i suspect that we are not going to agree. [00:24]
trinque: the category is as big as it is, and no smaller [00:24]
trinque: and inventing "file" and #include does not change that [00:24]
mircea_popescu: possibru not. [00:24]
asciilifeform: i believe that it is possible to actually solve a problem in a permanent way. [00:24]
asciilifeform: as in, for all time. [00:24]
mircea_popescu: in software ? maybe. ONE problem. not "all problems". [00:24]
asciilifeform: one problem. [00:24]
asciilifeform: e.g., addition in Z. [00:24]
mircea_popescu: you write your lib with the cannonical solution everyone else imports it that wants it. [00:24]
asciilifeform: aha [00:25]
mircea_popescu: exactly how "search" is "a problem solved for all time", but when grep got implemented they... cheated it. [00:25]
asciilifeform: imports, not MORONICALLY cut and pastes. [00:25]
asciilifeform: imports by referencing the hash. [00:25]
mircea_popescu: imports, not moronically includes, but re-writes the code. [00:25]
trinque: and so then your program will never fit in your head [00:25]
trinque: it will until you hit a boundary and say "openssl" or "tinyscheme" [00:25]
asciilifeform: but you NEVER 'say tinyscheme' [00:25]
trinque: and this is fiat-world division of labor where at some point it is "other guy's problem" [00:25]
mircea_popescu: you know saying "tinyscheme 4564387658734" is not for this reason better than "tinyscheme" [00:26]
phf: well, tinyscheme-0f2b8cc [00:26]
trinque: and thus entirely not "fits in head" [00:26]
trinque: phf: does not matter [00:26]
trinque: tinyscheme at point in time, no shit [00:26]
asciilifeform: you say B9F2C8885474FD6B4F7D36955799716E68161BE8F8CFCE3640ADE942FE0064A00D64C7DABC3EC36B24797760B99EA6C79D74A8F984DCC3AEAC2EEF183B3ED70B. [00:26]
BingoBoingo: [00:26]
mircea_popescu: trinque that's his point, that it doesn't matter. [00:26]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the peculiar string you use does not work the magic better. [00:26]
mircea_popescu: can be as long and lettery as you want. still a hail mary string of no actual practical benefit. [00:26]
asciilifeform: it does though. (unless you have a meaningful hash collision.) [00:26]
mircea_popescu: mno. [00:26]
asciilifeform: it doesn't point to a 'place where i swear i put a tinyscheme and not rm -rf' [00:27]
asciilifeform: it points to tinyscheme. [00:27]
mircea_popescu: this is true. it is also irrelevant. [00:27]
asciilifeform: i am entirely unconvinced. [00:27]
mircea_popescu: well... [00:27]
asciilifeform: to me it is the only relevant thing. [00:27]
phf: tinyscheme then becomes a space of unknowing [00:27]
phf: heh, this is parallel to the unicode conversation actually.. [00:28]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform architecture long encountered, and thenresolved, this matter. there are "problems solved for all time", such as, "the roman arch". nevertheless, no architect to date has yet written "roman arch" on a piece of paper. [00:28]
mircea_popescu: instead, he made one. by hand. to spec as his project needed. [00:28]
asciilifeform: possibly what mircea_popescu was thinking is that the operator is NOT absolved of the chore of reading the thing that hashed to B9F2C8885474FD6B4F7D36955799716E68161BE8F8CFCE3640ADE942FE0064A00D64C7DABC3EC36B24797760B99EA6C79D74A8F984DCC3AEAC2EEF183B3ED70B [00:28]
mircea_popescu: phf it just occured to me yeah, it is. [00:28]
asciilifeform: to see what it consists of [00:28]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not just read it. change it. [00:28]
asciilifeform: the part i disagree is mircea_popescu's apparent insistence that said chances ought to artificially obscure the origin [00:29]
mircea_popescu: the odds of two projects wanting the same exact verbatim pile of lib-code are ~as good as for a hash collision. [00:29]
asciilifeform: and leave the reader to gnaw on it with diff tools if he wants to get to the truth [00:29]
mircea_popescu: there is no "origin", other than, "who signed it". [00:29]
trinque: the thing on trial here is I just wanted to aes-128 or whatever I did not want to openssl [00:30]
mircea_popescu: but yes, laterally, this also takes out with red irons any concept of "copyright" in software [00:30]
mircea_popescu: not altogether a bad side effect, but it is not intentional, merely derivative from sanity. [00:30]
asciilifeform: trinque: elaborate ? [00:30]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: makes ~exactly same amount of sense by abolishing copyright by poking out eyes. [00:30]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i been sayuing this for an hour now. YOU DONT FUCKING IMPORT THE WHOLE LIB VERBATIM. you take what you need, and adapt it to your project. [00:30]
trinque: my actual possible code paths in say trb should be reflected in the code [00:30]
trinque: asciilifeform: ^ [00:31]
mircea_popescu: < also. [00:31]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-14 04:29 mircea_popescu: the odds of two projects wanting the same exact verbatim pile of lib-code are ~as good as for a hash collision. [00:31]
asciilifeform: ideally you will specify a MINIMAL set of differences, via patching. supposing that the originating item was by someone in your wot, vs taken from hitler on battlefield [00:32]
asciilifeform: and phf actually had a good point earlier: [00:32]
asciilifeform: i am NOT and will NOT be willing to sign off on, e.g., tinyscheme, or even trb, with same level of assurance as for code that i and i alone had written. [00:32]
asciilifeform: hence [00:32]
asciilifeform: ^ which incidentally is still a thing that must be done, either this way or some other way, because this is indeed a dire problem [00:33]
trinque: I'm reminded of the call-graph thread [00:33]
mircea_popescu: no, best is to trust and verify. pretend you did take it off hitler. [00:33]
asciilifeform: and must be dealt with. [00:33]
mircea_popescu: otherwise - hole, night, creeps in. [00:33]
trinque: point being that problem would be trivial if we weren't introducing human-side optimizations like #include and general libraries of 100s of functions out of which you pick a couple [00:35]
phf: i prefer to just loosen the requirements a bit. a failure in a vpatch doesn't need to result in public disgrace, shaming or execution. that might be one of reasons why work came to utter stand still, nobody wants to "sign off" on this or that like it's going to end in the style of diana_coman's story [00:35]
asciilifeform: if i have to diff (or, satan forbid, VISUALLY INSPECT), e.g., mod6's ffz.adb to see what parts he changed from mine, and every single motherfucking time i find that it is nothing at all, then my time is wasted. [00:35]
asciilifeform: my VERY limited time. [00:35]
asciilifeform: phf: it was hanbot's story [00:35]
phf: err, yes, sorry [00:35]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform why would you care to answer that q btw ? [00:35]
trinque: the problem is poorly formed I would eventually sign off on a function that did RSA [00:36]
trinque: I will never sign off on a crypto util lib that has umpteen million functions [00:36]
mircea_popescu: i am of the same mind. [00:36]
asciilifeform: because if i cannot determine mechanically 'this is THE thing that ~i~ wrote' vs 'this is SOME OTHER thing that i must now read with magnifying glass' this wastes potentially weeks, months, years (depending on mass of turd) of my time. [00:36]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform reading code we use is not wasting anything. [00:36]
mircea_popescu: either it's familiar or it isn't. [00:36]
asciilifeform: reading SAME THING 1,000,001 times because SOMEONE ELSE FORCED ME ~is~ [00:37]
asciilifeform: definitionally. [00:37]
asciilifeform: if ~i chose to~ - then no, not waste. [00:37]
mircea_popescu: incidentally, this may be the most idiotic cockroach implanted by usg in programmer heads, "save time by not reading" [00:37]
mircea_popescu: nigga... [00:37]
mircea_popescu: so fucking backwards. read, bitch. read. [00:37]
mircea_popescu: write less. [00:37]
asciilifeform: by not reading THING I WROTE n+1th time [00:37]
mircea_popescu: if it's already in your head ? goes fast. [00:37]
asciilifeform: my n, for all mircea_popescu knows, could be 1,000. [00:37]
mircea_popescu: iirc when i wanted to sanitize indents you quashed it mostly on the grounds of exactly this, "i want my diff to still work". well now ? [00:38]
mircea_popescu: it works, use it omgerd. [00:38]
asciilifeform: it was a 'i will NOT read a thing by hand to discover that it is actually equal to yesterday's thing' [00:38]
asciilifeform: does mircea_popescu remember his mega-article on leverage ? [00:39]
mircea_popescu: yes. [00:39]
asciilifeform: and which projects he would take on in his consulting days [00:39]
phf: reading thing you wrote as applied to a new problem might potentially reveal issues. "oh this code uses strcpy with null pointer, strcpy is included from `my` code, so i'm going to make a bunch of assumptions that break down in this case" [00:39]
asciilifeform: have link handy for l0gz? [00:39]
mircea_popescu: [00:39]
asciilifeform: phf: i quite agree that rereading can be beneficial. but NOT forced 'paint the snow heaps white' ru army style. [00:39]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: yes! precisely that one. [00:39]
mircea_popescu: shut up, ru army style made men out of a collection of shitheads. [00:39]
asciilifeform: tru! [00:40]
mircea_popescu: all the "effort saving" kitchen appliances never made a man yet. [00:40]
asciilifeform: but doing same to ~adult man~ is a no go. [00:40]
mircea_popescu: internet of things. pshaw. [00:40]
asciilifeform: different animals. [00:40]
asciilifeform: in linked piece, mircea_popescu described how he would piss right back on people who intend to waste his time [00:40]
asciilifeform: (with sitting in queues, pointless travels to stuffy offices, etc) [00:40]
trinque: when I read a definition of a lisp system which pulls 30 separate files into one namespace, I am reading a lie [00:40]
trinque: the system is 15k lines long, not 200 or w/e [00:41]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you're trying to save copulation time, seriously now. [00:41]
mircea_popescu: it's not been wasted, the time you used reading, it's not been wasted. [00:41]
asciilifeform: realize, if i strongly suspect that strings s1 and s2 are identical, i'ma diff'em. [00:42]
asciilifeform: no matter what dumb obstacles anybody placed in my way. [00:42]
asciilifeform: i ain't reading macbeth twice in one evening unless i ~want~ to. [00:42]
mircea_popescu: so diff'em. [00:42]
trinque: what requires you to read the whole scroll? [00:42]
trinque: so you're looking at it at offset whatever, what does this change? [00:42]
mircea_popescu: or for that matter, anything you don't feel like reading. [00:42]
phf: fwiw, we don't have examples in code base of 1000 re-readings but we already have an example of openssl, which is where this conversation started [00:43]
mircea_popescu: heh. [00:43]
asciilifeform: phf: i still dun see where openssl comes in [00:43]
mircea_popescu: tinyscheme :D [00:43]
asciilifeform: hell, we have a ~literal~ openssl in there. [00:43]
asciilifeform: in the tinyscheme sense. [00:43]
mircea_popescu: anyway, what started this conversation is that the ratcheting ratcher burnssss. [00:43]
mircea_popescu: what's one to do. so it burnssss. [00:43]
asciilifeform: incidentally, at one point i signed 'this is the tarball of openssl circa 20xx from my hdd, sha512==H' [00:45]
trinque: what did that tell anyone [00:45]
asciilifeform: trinque: you would rather not have it ? [00:45]
asciilifeform: and get a wild one from the net ? [00:45]
asciilifeform: you business. [00:45]
asciilifeform: *your [00:45]
trinque: how am I to evaluate the question of whether I care about that? [00:45]
mircea_popescu: it's a start. it can not be a standard, however. merely a start. [00:45]
asciilifeform: trinque: you evaluate it using SAME algo as you use for 'did asciilifeform write his patches or were they given to him by a colonel at ftmeade to pass to chumps' [00:46]
trinque: "I want incomprehensible wad of nonsense from PRECISE date over incomprehensible wad of nonsense from arbitrary date" [00:46]
asciilifeform: trinque: it was how we genesis'd trb, recall. [00:46]
trinque: sure, and see mircea_popescu from 4 lines ago [00:47]
trinque: but I have nfi what the fucking thing is, to this day [00:47]
trinque: because of the very thing we're discussing. [00:47]
asciilifeform: aaaaaaaand THIS is why i want to preserve ALL possible quanta of provenance. [00:48]
asciilifeform: for future trinque . [00:48]
asciilifeform: instead of cluttering up the aether with cut'n'pastola. [00:48]
trinque: I would understand more of what bitcoin *is* from an implementation with no dependencies than from what we have [00:48]
asciilifeform: you can ALWAYS press/rebase a chain of patches into a 'year 0' [00:48]
trinque: that what we have is all we have is a tragedy and nothing other [00:48]
asciilifeform: you can't do the reverse ! [00:48]
asciilifeform: there is no hamburger --> cow converter. [00:48]
asciilifeform: trinque: it is quite correct to say that no one will ever fully grasp what the original bitcoin actually ~was~ [00:49]
asciilifeform: because this act would require fitting, e.g., 'boost', in head. [00:49]
asciilifeform: which ain't happening. [00:49]
trinque: yes. [00:49]
mod6: Gentlemen, I must bid you Good Evening. I'll pick this back up with you on the 'morrow. :] [00:50]
trinque: for all I know boost does this very particular thing with memory allocation that obviates some race condition the whole concept has which prevented it from collapsing immediately [00:50]
asciilifeform: goodnight mod6 [00:51]
trinque: and we'll never know because as formed I cannot read bitcoin [00:51]
trinque: and now we're back to your book [00:51]
* trinque cackles [00:51]
* asciilifeform bbl [00:51]
phf: genesis of bitcoin including entire lfs, gcc, etc. [00:51]
trinque: every pit of ignorance on earth sits behind some tidy word beyond which "it's someone else's problem" [00:55]
phf: i think that a lot of these conversations come to a standstill because they deal with infinities, rather the shaping into a reasonable concrete. it seems proper that slapping new code onto bitcoin should come in a form of wot signed balls of mud, that don't particularly care about preserving all information and pedigrees and such. "i wrote this new math function and it uses this mp code that i lifted elsewhere but shaped enough that only relevant bits remain and for all practical purposes all you see in this patch is all that matters" [00:55]
BingoBoingo: [00:59]
trinque: phf: the problem there is knowing how much compromise leads to death [01:02]
trinque: one can always say "not as much as I've commited thus far" [01:03]
trinque: and then maybe you're BingoBoingo's druggie, or you're in a pool of blood and piss [01:03]
phf: act from cause? [01:03]
trinque: I'd expect it avoids the trap [01:04]
trinque: at least in that case you know what you've done! [01:07]
phf: i'm not sure i understand where compromise is. i'm comfortable working with big ball of mud. i see a vpatch as a transition of state of mud to a new state of mud and vpatch is an exhaustive description of what that state transition means. it's signed by asciilifeform which is all the pedigree i need. vpatch itself can come with out of band comment "might be buggy" or "ready for war deployment". there are known problems with that approach that manifest at scale (like for example multiple slightly conflicting version of "utilities" or "math functions" that get copied back and forth, finding bug in one means that the other might remain unpatched, etc.) [01:16]
phf: but i haven't seen those problems yet in the bitcoin codebase, the problem that i did see is a certain deliberate apartness of tinyscheme related code, that subtly violate my assumptions in a nagging way that i described above. [01:18]
trinque: that "apartness" you smell on tinyscheme is throughout the thing, not just there [01:20]
trinque: I have been arguing that the #include concept (styled (require ...) or whatever you like) gives a person a place past which he may "not have to care" [01:20]
phf: sure, and the next step might be to trim down openssl as much as possible (which might be not much at all given limited resources) and rebase it into genesis [01:20]
trinque: except that he does have to care this concept is broken [01:20]
trinque: certainly so [01:21]
trinque: there's a core philosophical question of "what is a program" which extends from the observation [01:21]
trinque: using openssl as a symbol, to the degree that your program relies on one, you cannot be said to have written any particular program at all [01:22]
trinque: and your signature upon the mud is meaningless [01:22]
phf: a genesis that no one can read through and make sense of it is meaningless [01:23]
trinque: who is arguing with that? [01:23]
phf: well, as far as i understand it was us three arguing with asciilifeform from different angles [01:24]
trinque: two categories come to mind lets say in the context of planning a military operation [01:30]
trinque: on one side you have the set of all possible tactics to employ in a given domain [01:30]
trinque: this is a 'crypto util library' [01:30]
trinque: on the other you have specific orders given to a unit [01:30]
trinque: this is a program [01:30]
trinque: funny thing here, isn't lisp supposed to be able to manipulate its own damned code [01:31]
phf: well, mp already pointed at this with his roman arch example [01:31]
trinque: why then does it hvae the same import system as C++ roughly [01:31]
trinque: why isn't my program only the set of code it actually uses [01:31]
trinque: even though yeah, it came from the set of all known Xs and Ys [01:32]
phf: which is traditionally described in computing with same architecture terms, i.e. patterns [01:32]
trinque: I should name a specific symbol import and have the code for that import and all deps slurped into the very spot I named it [01:32]
phf: asdf is a later graft on lisp, already long after it went microcomputer [01:35]
phf: the ball of mud in case of lisp is "the entire state of your lisp machine image" [01:36]
phf: in fact lisp is pretty unfriendly to the whole idea of "fire and forget" code reuse [01:36]
phf: hense various monsters like "named readtables" and various attempts to minimize package name clashing [01:37]
* trinque tries to imagine what a hammer would look like if it were composed of orthogonal categories of "lets make everything to do with hardness" and "everything to do with smashing" [01:37]
trinque: probably fucking openssl [01:37]
trinque: the physical world does not have this confounding problem [01:40]
trinque: you do not link something which contains all possible uses of cement when you pour a foundation [01:40]
trinque: with the risk that something about bridge failure may end up causing your building to collapse [01:41]
trinque: fascinating I have a condensation of the whole conversation now [01:43]
trinque: it's whether software is a matter of engineering or of thought. [01:44]
trinque: asciilifeform thinking of it from the perspective of "mind amplifier" says in order to represent as much thought as possible, gonna need hyperlinking [01:45]
trinque: someone thinking of a specific problem rather than *the whole problem* sees it from the perspective of maximizing clarity of his own particular domain [01:45]
trinque: thus fuck your hyperlinks give me the whole thing in one buffer [01:45]
* trinque to bed [01:46]
deedbot: [] Commissions d’intervention, le casse du siècle - [04:16]
shinohai: Morning, #trilema [06:48]
shinohai: <<< ETH in the "press" [06:54]
shinohai: $up fromphuctor [07:41]
shinohai: :/ [07:41]
deedbot: shinohai may not $up fromphuctor [07:41]
shinohai: lo siento [07:42]
mircea_popescu: $up fromphuctor [07:43]
deedbot: fromphuctor voiced for 30 minutes. [07:43]
mircea_popescu: holy shit davout .1% of GDP ? [07:51]
mircea_popescu: ahaha good read. [07:52]
shinohai: later tell BingoBoingo [08:02]
gribble: The operation succeeded. [08:02]
mircea_popescu: << word. really, "labour division" is harmful in the same manner jwzism is harmful, if practiced in the manner jwzism is practiced. the criteria for cleavage MUST BE "can these things be cleaved" it CAN NOT BE "would i like these things apart". it is and has to remain about the things, not about the people. and in this sense "engineering serves mankind" in the same way "the sun is u [08:57]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-14 04:55 trinque: every pit of ignorance on earth sits behind some tidy word beyond which "it's someone else's problem" [08:57]
mircea_popescu: seful to us". it's not something it set out to do. [08:57]
mircea_popescu: hence the whole "because i can". it's a misnomer : "because it can be done" is proper, the i has no business in there. it'd like to, but that's neither here nor there. [08:57]
mircea_popescu: and yes, it all loops right back into [08:59]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-14 05:03 phf: act from cause? [08:59]
mircea_popescu: << it violates mine outright, so much so that on the first pass i ~ignored it. i hadn't at the time it's meant seriously, hard to tell what is a minor point and what a major point until discussion actually ends up on them. [09:00]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-14 05:18 phf: but i haven't seen those problems yet in the bitcoin codebase, the problem that i did see is a certain deliberate apartness of tinyscheme related code, that subtly violate my assumptions in a nagging way that i described above. [09:00]
mircea_popescu: i hadn't realised* [09:00]
mircea_popescu: << whether you can be said to have "written" it, in the manner of genre fiction, is even a separate matter from "having written it" in the manner of code, which means you control it, which is a superset of you understand it completely, which has really little to do with "here's a string i dreamed up now publish it and clal it a book". [09:01]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-14 05:22 trinque: using openssl as a symbol, to the degree that your program relies on one, you cannot be said to have written any particular program at all [09:02]
deedbot: [Trilema] Pili - [09:03]
mircea_popescu: << incidentally, i think this discussion unearthed another sacred idol of computing stupidity, deeply buried. allow me to go into some detail : [09:03]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-14 05:31 phf: well, mp already pointed at this with his roman arch example [09:03]
mircea_popescu: there obviously exists a continuum between abstraction and implementation. the way this continuum is handled in ~all (and absolutely all) successful human endeavours is, that a concept is clarified AS A CONCEPT and then that concept is applied to situations as an application. like the war, roman arch, et all. [09:04]
mircea_popescu: meanwhile, the way this continuum is handled in all failed human endeavours (computing among them, with such prideful items as "social science" and so on) is for "all possible uses" of a concept to be "dreamed up" and "packaged" in a "conceptual library" which is then to be used verbatim. [09:05]
mircea_popescu: this idiocy is not only how computing "works" today, but it is also how a good "marxist leninist maoist" party cadre is expected to treat the inept shit they use : he's to import marx.library exactly like you're "expected" to import iosys.blabla [09:06]
mircea_popescu: the deep stupidity involved should be directly apparent, but in any case - the system as proposed violates the proper flow of entropy, and as such MAY NOT HAVE ANY MERITS. [09:06]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu is also against operating system? after all, it also entails invoking existing code instead of repasting whole shebang [09:07]
mircea_popescu: os should be built via v. [09:07]
asciilifeform: i agree... [09:08]
mircea_popescu: which means there isn't "the os" anymore. [09:08]
asciilifeform: but question concerned os as, fundamentally, a library [09:08]
mircea_popescu: but os as fundamentally a library is like woman as fundamentally a syphilis repository. [09:08]
asciilifeform: which is to say, a fairly heavy thing, that mircea_popescu is likely to use in his creations without reading. [09:08]
mircea_popescu: my shamelessly tall statement here being that, "library is the bad thing", outright. [09:08]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i wouldn't use it in my creations without reading it. i may run it on a box on the basis of wot though. [09:09]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the fundamental problem with the "library" thing is that you are asked to guess what i might wish to do in the future. this is wrong, and unfixable. [09:10]
asciilifeform: a fella who won't set foot on airplane has the luxury of 'i won't fly unless i built the thing'. [09:10]
mircea_popescu: "open source" alleviates this like an emergency valve does but why the fuck have design processes which create items which rely on emergency valve already. fix the leaks. [09:10]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: with static library that is NOT a thing [09:10]
asciilifeform: there is no 'in the future' [09:11]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform your idea of static library is practical, but incomplete. [09:11]
asciilifeform: it isn't an animal, can't run away [09:11]
mircea_popescu: true static library is really the complete story : ascii's ffz + the various re-implementations of ffz in projects x y and z. [09:11]
asciilifeform: if it actually works, it never needs reimplementing. [09:11]
asciilifeform: usable verbatim. [09:12]
mircea_popescu: at the very least any use will only want parts of it. [09:12]
mircea_popescu: how do you put in "all the parts that are needed by ALL future users" but "no parts not needed by ANY future user" ? [09:12]
asciilifeform: this is something that always annoyed me, that folks write blobs that later have to be cut into parts. [09:12]
asciilifeform: i - pre-cut. [09:13]
mircea_popescu: i do not wish my os to contain as much as a fucking variable declared i don't use. not one. [09:13]
asciilifeform: like any good butcher [09:13]
asciilifeform: i'm with mircea_popescu on this one ^ . [09:13]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i suspect this may be a case where your conscientious intelligence is moreover harmful in the very limited and passagery sense that it took you far enough down a blind alley to make digging out the proper route seem expensive and painful. [09:13]
asciilifeform: << this is called orthogonalization. and is a thing. even if lazy bastards never do it and consequently mircea_popescu has never seen it. [09:14]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-14 13:12 mircea_popescu: how do you put in "all the parts that are needed by ALL future users" but "no parts not needed by ANY future user" ? [09:14]
mircea_popescu: i posit that no matter how good a job you do of it, and i believe you capable of an exceptionally good job, will never be perfect, because it can't be for fundamental reasons. [09:15]
asciilifeform: software is the one animal that ~can~ be perfect. [09:15]
mircea_popescu: only in given context. which is the problem. [09:16]
asciilifeform: not merely in context of use, but of specification. [09:17]
asciilifeform: a fits-in-head library with no loose parts and no sharp edges can be used as it is. [09:18]
mircea_popescu: there's some problems with the concept of "specification" also that i don't have clear in my mind [09:18]
asciilifeform: and guarantee 0 surprises. [09:18]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: hm? [09:18]
mircea_popescu: speaking of which, i must say this has been by far the most serious, deep and far reaching argument tmsr yet produced, i sit and marvel at the wonder, all my resources tapped taut and for the first time in many years insufficient to peer through the gloom. [09:18]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform let's go into a lengthy sidepoint. can you define "specification" for my benefit ? strangely enough the prb tards think some things about what a specification is that diverge. [09:19]
asciilifeform: generally, a human language description which unambiguously relates the inputs of a mechanism to the outputs [09:20]
mircea_popescu: no generally. the definitive, absolute and no sharp edges or loose parts version, that can be engraved into the ether and forever work without change. [09:21]
asciilifeform: no such thing, because spec is a program for ~meat~ [09:21]
asciilifeform: meat sucks to begin with, 'crooked timber' etc. [09:21]
mircea_popescu: heh. [09:21]
mircea_popescu: so make a spec for god. [09:22]
asciilifeform: spec ain't magic. and much of what you see passing for spec is a deliberate attempt to paper over broken ~concepts~ with verbiage. [09:23]
mircea_popescu: aha. [09:23]
asciilifeform: have an example of correctly made spec: the ada ref+rationale. [09:24]
asciilifeform: it is sufficiently detailed and unambiguous that unrelated groups can and have implemented fully compatible compilers. [09:25]
asciilifeform: by reading it. [09:25]
mircea_popescu: ugh. [09:25]
mircea_popescu: i was looking for a definition not for an example. [09:26]
asciilifeform: yes it is pig-ugly [09:26]
asciilifeform: i gave definition earlier. [09:26]
mircea_popescu: which ? [09:27]
asciilifeform: unambiguous description of how inputs and outputs relate. [09:27]
mircea_popescu: so a spec is purely descriptive, and in no sense prescriptive ? [09:28]
asciilifeform: e.g., 'the box takes 8 bits as input and sets the 3 bits of output as equal to the number of 1s on the input register.' [09:29]
mircea_popescu: "don't steal" can not be a spec, only "if you steal you go to jail" ? [09:29]
asciilifeform: all specs are maximally prescriptive. in that implication is 'if you don't do x, you are not conformant and we throw you out and buy a new you' [09:30]
mircea_popescu: and spec may not discuss internal state, only inputs and outputs ? [09:30]
asciilifeform: correct. [09:30]
mircea_popescu: then variant and unequivalent implementations of the same spec may exist ? [09:31]
asciilifeform: absolutely. i can build machine to match my spec above out of GaAs transistors, or MOSFETs on Si or whatever. [09:32]
mircea_popescu: so you've just said "the bitcoin newtork is the bitcoin specification" here. [09:32]
asciilifeform: since i did not mention timings or analogue characteristics, the two will be equal per the spec. [09:32]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: only because it presently has no other specification [09:33]
asciilifeform: but it has none at all [09:33]
asciilifeform: the wild animals of the forest are not a spec [09:33]
mircea_popescu: but the network already and very clearly specifies inputs nad outputs. this meets your definition. [09:33]
asciilifeform: clearly?! [09:34]
mircea_popescu: experimential specification, "send a txn see if it makes it through". [09:34]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well, for any possible output, it'll get either accepted or rejected. doesn't get clearer than this. [09:34]
asciilifeform: this is pointedly NOT a specification. [09:34]
mircea_popescu: which is my point. [09:34]
asciilifeform: rejected today, accepted tomorrow. [09:34]
mircea_popescu: exactly. [09:34]
asciilifeform: there is no room for dice rolls in a spec. [09:34]
mircea_popescu: your definition's no good. [09:34]
mircea_popescu: you did not say that. [09:34]
asciilifeform: my definition is fine, you are trying to apply it to a dog vomit [09:35]
mircea_popescu: hahahaha [09:35]
mircea_popescu: i hope this was deliberate joke yes ? [09:35]
asciilifeform: which isn't a fit subject. you can't specify a dog vomit, it won't sit still [09:35]
asciilifeform: can specify 'bitcointron' but not 'the network' [09:36]
mircea_popescu: o god almighty he was playing it straight. listen asciilifeform you'll say the exact same thing about your bovaric contraption down the road. "the program is fine the world failed it". need i quote brecht to you ? [09:36]
asciilifeform: a spec must be objectively, deterministically testable. [09:37]
asciilifeform: how do you test the network ? [09:37]
mircea_popescu: you didn't say that, either. [09:38]
mircea_popescu: but hey, you test it. "as best you can". then nobody believes the results [09:38]
* mircea_popescu waves hand [09:38]
asciilifeform: because not objective. cannot be ~replicated~ [09:39]
asciilifeform: 'dragon came for me from this here well, ergo it contains dragon' is not an objective test [09:39]
asciilifeform: ~i~ ought to be able to summon dragon likewise. [09:39]
asciilifeform: or dragon-presence is not a testable thing. [09:40]
mircea_popescu: care to revisit your definition of a specification ? [09:40]
asciilifeform: did say 'unambiguous' and testable [09:41]
asciilifeform: what more you want. [09:41]
mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> unambiguous description of how inputs and outputs relate. << is what i have. [09:42]
mircea_popescu: bitvcoin network is unambiguous. [09:43]
asciilifeform: at any rate, spec is a weak animal when it relies on promise, rather than protocol. ideally you want a simple litmus test for conformance that insta-zaps deviants [09:43]
asciilifeform: like going wrong way in traffic will kill an idiot [09:43]
asciilifeform: to the extent that bitcoin does ~not~ behave this way, it is broken design. [09:44]
mircea_popescu: but that's neither here nor there re our problem. [09:44]
asciilifeform: bitcoin network is a dogvomit, because it happily accomodates folks driving wrong way. [09:45]
mircea_popescu: irl i drove wrong way and here i am also. [09:46]
asciilifeform: but road did not switch directions for hours while mircea_popescu drove wrong way. spat him out. [09:48]
asciilifeform: or was it in, say, india, and it did ? [09:48]
mircea_popescu: serbia, ~did. anyway, to round up this excursion : [09:49]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-14 13:18 mircea_popescu: there's some problems with the concept of "specification" also that i don't have clear in my mind [09:49]
mircea_popescu: and now ima go eat. bbs! [09:49]
shinohai: [09:56]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform anyway, your definition of a spec is amply vulnerable. take the time issue : what, ddr can't be specified ? fingering a girl neither ? what happens if the spec asks for a 10 followed by a 11, and ytou get the 10 and silence ? now you got a whole halting problem on your hands. [10:03]
mircea_popescu: honestly it doesn't seem anyone has a better idea of what a spec is than "correct metaphora", which is ridiculous, ironic, scandalous and not much to go on simultaneously. [10:04]
asciilifeform: i didn't say 'time can't be specified' !! [10:07]
asciilifeform: it simply wasn't in my example. [10:07]
mircea_popescu: uh. [10:07]
asciilifeform: you can put whatever you want in a valid spec, so long as it is deterministically testable. [10:07]
asciilifeform: 'relates inputs to outputs' does not exclude time, voltage, sex, whatever. [10:08]
mircea_popescu: so no small scale physical object can be specified. [10:08]
asciilifeform: if scale small enough - then surely not satisfactorily. [10:09]
asciilifeform: try specify electron. [10:09]
asciilifeform: whole concept of spec only makes sense in application to testable man-made objects [10:09]
asciilifeform: normally, ones you can throw out if they fail. [10:09]
asciilifeform: (i.e. individual telephone sets, but not 'the phone grid') [10:09]
mircea_popescu: so the phone grid can't be specified ? [10:10]
asciilifeform: bell corp. certainly ~tried~, it was comical. [10:10]
asciilifeform: i actually own some of the trees the killed. [10:10]
asciilifeform: quite a read. [10:10]
asciilifeform: *they [10:10]
mircea_popescu: myeah [10:10]
asciilifeform: did we ever do a screw threads thread ? [10:12]
mircea_popescu: possibly not ? [10:12]
asciilifeform: re the ~original~ specs of the 1700s. [10:12]
asciilifeform: where lathe men had considerable trouble specifying threads ~on paper~ [10:12]
asciilifeform: and 'the implementation was the spec', at least for a long while. [10:13]
mircea_popescu: heh [10:13]
asciilifeform: and the problem was solved in ways which mircea_popescu would find quite unsatisfying [10:13]
asciilifeform: (metrological 'idols' in paris, etc.) [10:13]
asciilifeform: (for n00bs: to cut a thread, your lathe needs: a threaded part! itself !) [10:14]
mircea_popescu: "specification is what happens to art products that are no longer interesting. it is the equivalent of commoditization for resources, familiarity in relationships and failure in civilisation." [10:14]
asciilifeform: specified threads were a win. [10:15]
asciilifeform: any way you cut it. [10:15]
asciilifeform: i don't WANT a screw as motherfucking 'art object'. [10:15]
mircea_popescu: and being tired of old wifey is also a win "any way you cut it", except no way you care to. [10:15]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform art in the old sense, from artifex. [10:15]
mircea_popescu: ie, what you call engineering. [10:15]
asciilifeform: in the sense of 'each one is precious and unique and handmade' [10:15]
asciilifeform: fuck that. [10:16]
mircea_popescu: why can't it be "each one is carefully well made" ? [10:16]
asciilifeform: can be as well made as you care to pay for [10:16]
asciilifeform: but if they aren't ~interchangeable~ you have no industry. [10:16]
mircea_popescu: which incidentally is how specificatgion was originally born. "replaceable parts", ww2 tech. [10:17]
asciilifeform: napoleonic war tech. [10:17]
mircea_popescu: well depends where, but anyway. [10:18]
asciilifeform: but yes, fundamentally spec was born so that a man could part out a rifle. [10:18]
mircea_popescu: anyway, for completeness : the correct, mp-would-find-satisfying, tmsr etc solution to the lathe problem is : make a lathe that cuts lathe parts. shoot anyone found with threaded items not made by your lathe for a few years. [10:21]
asciilifeform: that's sorta what happened. [10:22]
mircea_popescu: it's what always has to happen. [10:22]
asciilifeform: << see also. [10:22]
mircea_popescu: kinda why isis will necessarily conquer and exterminate north america. [10:22]
mircea_popescu: they use the metric system. [10:22]
asciilifeform: do they ? [10:23]
asciilifeform: i ask because apparently british units survive in afghan. [10:23]
asciilifeform: did we ever do a 'postel's law not only considered harmful but a disaster of epic proportions, quite comparable to leaded petrol' thread ? [10:25]
asciilifeform: $s postel's law [10:25]
a111: 9 results for "postel's law",'s%20law [10:25]
asciilifeform: << thread [10:26]
a111: Logged on 2014-02-02 17:21 asciilifeform: 'Postel's Law,' that historic mistake. [10:26]
mircea_popescu: for noobs as you say : calculate the fluid ounces of water to be found in a lake of parallelipiped profile a quarter mile deep, two hundred yards long and six hundred feet wide. [10:27]
asciilifeform: aha. [10:27]
asciilifeform: monkey units are in no useful way inter-related [10:28]
asciilifeform: (how much ocean gives you 100 pounds per square inch of pressure ??) [10:28]
mircea_popescu: also good. [10:30]
asciilifeform: incidentally for so long as isis army fights with american gear, they are stuck with monkey units. [10:30]
asciilifeform: everything from bayonet lug up is in inches, 'mils', pound, etc. [10:32]
mircea_popescu: i don't think they care. [10:32]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you should see the rail here btw. often they have 3-5 rails installed. [10:33]
asciilifeform: waiwut [10:33]
asciilifeform: at switches ? [10:33]
mircea_popescu: i've seen actual track laid that way. [10:33]
asciilifeform: pics? [10:33]
mircea_popescu: will produce next i run into. [10:33]
asciilifeform: they lay sleepers extra-wide in advance ?! [10:34]
asciilifeform: or where do they put them [10:34]
mircea_popescu: the track simply has multiple rails. [10:34]
asciilifeform: yes but ~where~ [10:34]
mircea_popescu: thye just run parallel. what to you mean where [10:34]
asciilifeform: gotta have standard gauge, no ? [10:34]
asciilifeform: for the train to move [10:34]
mircea_popescu: train moves on whichever fits it. [10:35]
asciilifeform: ah so they have symmetric sets, for variant gauges ? [10:35]
asciilifeform: like in, e.g., ru border ? [10:35]
mircea_popescu: something like this : | | | | [10:35]
asciilifeform: ah ! [10:35]
asciilifeform: so inner set for coal cart or the like. [10:35]
mircea_popescu: looks like inner for some sort of light rail, 2nd looked normal, third looked ~russian [10:36]
asciilifeform: lulzy. [10:36]
asciilifeform: see, i was expecting worse, some orcish atrocity with 'spare' rails. [10:36]
mircea_popescu: sadly i was otherwise involved at the time and didn't think to shoot it up. [10:36]
asciilifeform: << like so ? [10:37]
mircea_popescu: quite so. [10:37]
asciilifeform: there we go. [10:37]
mircea_popescu: except they had the sense to not make the gaps line [10:38]
mircea_popescu: nfi what the museum did there. [10:38]
asciilifeform: << moar. [10:38]
Framedragger: asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'd like to interrupt this joyful occasion of copulation of you two by noting that ssh-rsa keys of all of ipv4 are now ready for phuctoring and further analysis they are in the format of e,N,ipaddress. there's 10.6M of them, out of 20.8M something-listening-on-port-22 hosts. rejoice! [10:39]
mircea_popescu: ahaha omg. caught in the act! [10:39]
asciilifeform: Framedragger: neato [10:39]
Framedragger: this is what i've been able to extract (timeout for ssh server to provide ssh keys: 7.0 seconds), but now that i better understand the nuances of this particular undertaking, re-scanning / re-extraction would be much easier. in particular, doable in 36 hours for under 2 euros of cost (and doable in shorter amount of time for more euros and more concentrated work). which means that costs are absolutely negligible, unless you want to keep [10:39]
mircea_popescu: nicely done Framedragger [10:39]
Framedragger: (i used one vps at a time (switched due to abuse complaints and so that i'd be sure there's no filtering / results are not biased) for the "which IPs out of all IPv4 are alive behind :22" scan, and i then used 13 cheap VPSes for the actual ssh key extraction out of the 20.8M alive candidates. if curious re cost: will get the bill for the 13 VPSes later, but it was basically 11 hours of scanning, 2.99eur / mo. per VPS, hourly billing, so [10:39]
Framedragger: e,N,ipaddress CSV: (2.6 GiB compressed) [10:40]
mircea_popescu: fab. [10:40]
Framedragger: ..and a signed checksum: [10:40]
Framedragger: nigga. [10:40]
mircea_popescu: wat ? [10:40]
Framedragger: this is what i say sometimes when i'm happy [10:41]
Framedragger: go figure the intricacies and idiosyncrasies of the human mind [10:41]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform check it out, 5x the phuctor installed basis :D [10:41]
Framedragger: oh uh, it's a shitty python web server there, i should provide something better huh [10:42]
mircea_popescu: also, you never answered the bassett disaster ? [10:42]
mircea_popescu: Framedragger should be able to serve a file neh ? [10:42]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: waiwut [10:42]
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: yeah but i dunno how good it is with serving parallel requests think it will be fine for this though, yeah [10:43]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform dude commenting on your article. [10:43]
asciilifeform: ah [10:43]
asciilifeform: << answr'd, believe or not. perhaps he comes back. [10:45]
mircea_popescu: aww i was hoping for a thorougher trashing of the imbecile redditard and his "hey guise let me tell you what alt universe my unchallenged 15 yo mind dreamed up" [10:47]
asciilifeform: normally a quick stomp suffices, i haven't the patience or time to pull the wings off. [10:48]
mircea_popescu: fair enuf [10:49]
* asciilifeform has quite practical and spartan approach to insect control. [10:49]
asciilifeform: << corrected, and with link. [10:51]
asciilifeform: << for ze logz. [10:56]
mircea_popescu: "I once worked with a crew who all huffed the Airwick room freshener and then sat back against the pallet stack and giggled and said “Wow man” for an hour. " << check out the theorematicians. [10:57]
asciilifeform: waiwut where [10:57]
mircea_popescu: [10:58]
asciilifeform: 'When I worked in South Baltimore I had to check the aerosol whip before I touched it. Down there those fends would unzip the seal and blast all of the gas up their nose right there in the aisle, resulting in nose bleeds. Most nights that I worked at the Fort Avenue store I had at least one canister on the dairy shelf with blood and other nasal secretions dripping down the side.' << l0l!! [10:59]
Framedragger: (ahahaha re bassett disaster.. yeah i would view 'cache' as an inevitable result of *constraints* (finite c).. i think it was a confusion of terms (spec / things that emerge from constraints), and i suppose the point of confusion itself is possibly an interesting object to discuss, etc) [11:03]
mircea_popescu: how you distinguish between "spec" and "things that emerge from constraints" ? [11:04]
asciilifeform: whether the constraints are provided by universe for free (e.g., all vacuum everywhere has same permeattivity constant, you don't have to sweat to get correct one) vs engineered. [11:06]
asciilifeform: the latter - specced. [11:06]
Framedragger: i don't know, but either (1) do not distinguish, or (2) use asciilifeform criterion, which i don't think to be circular, i.e. it's probably sound? [11:07]
asciilifeform: (the notion of 'high vacuum', interestingly enough, ~has~ a hard spec: mean free path of a particle in the vacuum must be larger than the vessel is wide along any axis) [11:07]
mircea_popescu: it runs into a problem of "what it means to be provided by universe". for instance - is failure of socialism provided by universe ? is the fact you can't walk through fire conventional or universal ? [11:08]
asciilifeform: asbestos suit - walk, walk [11:08]
asciilifeform: this is right back to the 'cleavables' thread. [11:08]
mircea_popescu: there's no way yet invented to mortise and tenon DIFFERENT beams together. so the result in practice is that you always interpret one - in this case "universe" becomes accessible through mediation, you describe it to yourself. [11:09]
asciilifeform: usg is at this very moment attempting a cleave of 'socialism fails' [11:09]
mircea_popescu: so now you're doing two things of the same kind - a convention and another convention. [11:09]
asciilifeform: using dope, brainwashing, destruction of family unit, 1,001 crackpotteries [11:09]
mircea_popescu: it is perhaps notable that universe does not provide spec of itself, and so "we're stuck doing basic science on it". [11:11]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'provided by universe' is a practical thing - like calculating digits of pi works the same regardless of whether you do it with darts, afghan - with kalash, and me - by throwing rocks, in a circle-in-square. [11:11]
mircea_popescu: i calculated digits of pi to be 3.879345839845 [11:13]
mircea_popescu: "works the same" only if oyu do it the same, see. [11:13]
mircea_popescu: but anyway, to expand this horror, what'd be your definition of "fully tested" asciilifeform ? [11:13]
asciilifeform: take that pi and build a house. [11:13]
asciilifeform: fully tested is when you do this. [11:13]
asciilifeform: and live in it. [11:14]
mircea_popescu: "this" what [11:14]
asciilifeform: take the pi and build. [11:14]
mircea_popescu: what if i do live in it and happily ? [11:14]
mircea_popescu: aka "works on my system" [11:14]
asciilifeform: then your descendants go ??? [11:14]
asciilifeform: this actually happened !! [11:14]
asciilifeform: with millikan's electron charge. [11:14]
mircea_popescu: heck, you laugh at my pi. fine, now laugh at millikan's electron. [11:15]
mircea_popescu: damn! [11:15]
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: 10000 mile distant response: just because you accept (at least parts of) (berkeleyan?) skepticism doesn't necessarily mean that *all* relevant conceptual boundaries are useless and prone to slippery slope dissolution [11:15]
asciilifeform: << on subj [11:15]
mircea_popescu: Framedragger thats not necessarily the problem. the problem seems moreover that we have very weak understanding of items that nevertheless we treat as key bricks in the planned construction. this "everyone knows" stuff is very dangerous. [11:16]
asciilifeform: folks have been calling m sc4mz0r for eons: [11:16]
Framedragger: (berkeleyan in the sense of (1) take locke's skeptical concerns, and (2) discard locke's "solution" involving lockean substance and substratum and other essentialist stuff) [11:17]
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: yeah k, this particiular concern should be acknowledged [11:17]
mircea_popescu: or, to put the same in positive terms, "we've driven the tools to where they exposed grave misunderstanding in the conceptual basis for their usage, now we gotta attend to that side of the ratchet." [11:18]
mircea_popescu: "usg runs a racket tmsr runs a ratchet." [11:18]
Framedragger: heheh. [11:19]
mircea_popescu: << incidentally, the "we got a hooker in X" / 5 dudes in main room hanging out and woman locked in bathroom for later use is very much emblematic male society. from the greek's gynecaeum to the mongol's "the smoked deer up that pole and the captured hos up that pole". [11:24]
mircea_popescu: no doubt the stuff feminist nightmares aree made of. sort of ready equivalent to "human herd of the future consisting of mostly females" [11:25]
Framedragger: asciilifeform: (the bz2 expands to 6.0 GiB btw, and it's 13 files inside (in said CSV format), and there's no sorting order and the files can be safely concatenated etc.) [11:28]
phf: suckless released their own bigint library [12:09]
asciilifeform: snore, uses heap, and not thread safe. [12:10]
asciilifeform: /* TODO Montgomery modular multiplication */ << lel [12:11]
asciilifeform: not complete, either. [12:11]
asciilifeform: arithmetic library has no business whatsoever allocating memory. [12:15]
BingoBoingo: later tell shinohai The PwC thing is a bit too much noisy to run [12:36]
gribble: The operation succeeded. [12:36]
shinohai: kk, in retrospect i feel that BingoBoingo [12:49]
deedbot: [Trilema] James Lafond's Beer Hooker, repaired. - [13:10]
mircea_popescu: ^ if any of the lafond afficionados wanna compare with the original an' lemme know... [13:14]
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: I dunno if the original was intended to be fiction, but this incremental rewriting is how the oral history passes [13:20]
mircea_popescu: word. [13:21]
mircea_popescu: arguably a process much more important than its results. [13:21]
BingoBoingo: This is a serious bug in the Internet. I fixes oral history as printed text too soon. [13:22]
mircea_popescu: it does nothing but people let it do stupid shit. [13:23]
BingoBoingo: Aha leik [13:23]
BingoBoingo: "A furfag lied and pretended one of their friends was killed during the shooting, which caused a moderate amount of drama in the furry scene go raid and troll his Fur Affinity account and stir up some drama for the lulz! " [13:24]
BingoBoingo: lol [13:25]
BingoBoingo: Victimhood jostling: "if you’re straight i really appreciate you uh, making posts about this and trying to raise awareness and give your 2 cents but please….. don’t? this isn’t about you or what you think and it’s making me really uncomfortable lmao please let us raise our voices, please share our posts instead of making your own. today isn’t a day for you to be reaching for ally points" [13:28]
mircea_popescu: inspired by their "report to fbi" thing i just registered #offended [13:28]
BingoBoingo: lol [13:28]
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo what is that weak shit ? "protected class" trying to leech ? [13:29]
BingoBoingo: Advanced neurological decay brough on by the Beetus [13:29]
BingoBoingo: And Obummer [13:29]
BingoBoingo: ANd gawker [13:30]
mircea_popescu: fuck you, a bunch of X-type derps getting killed is entirely not about x-derps. [13:30]
mircea_popescu: whaaat the everloving shit. [13:30]
BingoBoingo: Anyways the important part [13:33]
mircea_popescu: "While authorities begin the painstaking work into why gunman Omar Mateen massacred at least 50 people at a popular gay nightclub in Florida, they'll have a number of clues for understanding the mindset of the mass murderer" << guy didn't care for your stupid cult ? [13:34]
mircea_popescu: nah, that can't be in there, can it now. [13:34]
BingoBoingo: For reference [13:36]
asciilifeform: << lul [13:39]
BingoBoingo: [13:56]
Framedragger: found (post about it here: ) seems to be closed source, their uber db size is unknown [14:05]
asciilifeform: ^ lulzy. direct ripoff of phuctor. [14:07]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu ^ [14:07]
asciilifeform: complete with 'really this is it' and 'real time human censor' [14:07]
shinohai: kek [14:07]
mircea_popescu: lolk. [14:08]
asciilifeform: 'Handling SSH keys or SSL certs for your clients? Get in touch with us for a premium access to our key testing API.' [14:08]
mircea_popescu: pity they didn't call it "ethereum" [14:08]
mircea_popescu: anyway, with Framedragger 's bundle being dumped in phuctor, their "market" just evaporared. [14:09]
mircea_popescu: which is the one thing the republic can do real well - burn down the farms of the empire. thoroughly. [14:09]
mircea_popescu: come to think about it - this is historically accurate, also. [14:10]
asciilifeform: will 'burn down their farms' like gpg burned down microshit crypto. [14:11]
asciilifeform: which is to say, not at all. [14:11]
asciilifeform: imperial subjects will drink imperial crapolade. [14:11]
asciilifeform: and not terrorjuice. [14:11]
mircea_popescu: there's a difference between buying products of engineering and buying products of the theatrical arts. sure, they'll drink, let 'em. [14:12]
Framedragger: "And we shall have our pound of flesh, of thy fair flesh, from closest to thy heart." << hah i like casual quotes of mr william [14:12]
Framedragger: casual as in unexpected [14:12]
mircea_popescu: casual as in causerie. [14:13]
Framedragger: ah, indeed [14:14]
BingoBoingo: casual as in chauticerie [14:16]
BingoBoingo: Need more grinding to feed the phuctor sausage! [14:16]
Framedragger: asciilifeform: incidentally how's the backlog of phuctor? i expect it's rather busy as it is.. [14:17]
asciilifeform: Framedragger: there is no backlog [14:21]
asciilifeform: phuctor processes ALL keys in the system every 2h. [14:21]
asciilifeform: and would have to have about 100x moar moduli in it before it couldn't [14:22]
asciilifeform: (at which point i will set it to, what, 3h.) [14:22]
asciilifeform: the one bottleneck is: getting them in there. [14:22]
asciilifeform: [14:23]
asciilifeform: ^ in other lulz. [14:23]
Framedragger: asciilifeform: ahh. awesome setup. [14:26]
Framedragger: unrelated, allele set usage in eulora? damn, looks like i *may* have to give that gay game a try [14:26]
Framedragger: always wanted to experiment more with artificial life a la karl sims virtual creatures but in larger mmorpg world [14:26]
Framedragger: lol, contactless cards. it's such a stupidly bad idea. reminds me of some hack0rz stealing us passport info because us passports used to have (or maybe still have dunno) *active* rfid chips. yes, active [14:28]
mircea_popescu: well it's just a plan yet. but sure, give it a whirl. [14:28]
Framedragger: coolcool. [14:28]
mircea_popescu: lotta interesting stuff to do inside. [14:29]
deedbot: [Qntra] US Major Socialist Party Servers Hacked - [14:49]
mircea_popescu: << this, unaccidentally, is a very platonic ideal. [14:54]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-14 05:37 trinque tries to imagine what a hammer would look like if it were composed of orthogonal categories of "lets make everything to do with hardness" and "everything to do with smashing" [14:54]
mircea_popescu: "a kilogram of hammer is composed by taking half a kilogram of hardness and half a kilogram of smashing" [14:55]
BingoBoingo: That's kinda how I evaluate tools [14:56]
BingoBoingo: I need to accomplish X. Tool Y weights Z and offers A mass of utility B and C mass of utility D. [14:57]
BingoBoingo: For tools that require carrying. [15:01]
BingoBoingo: Other tools have different maths. For grass cutting deck size is king because more grass is cut for every unit of forward movement. For mowing without getting into the lowest bidder market of everyone with mowers you instead mow with and instead bid on mowing more interesting things. [15:04]
BingoBoingo: ticker --market all --currency rmb [15:12]
gribble: BTCChina BTCRMB last: 4601.67, vol: 62213.56580000 | Volume-weighted last average: 4601.67 [15:12]
BingoBoingo: ticker --market all [15:14]
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 683.98, vol: 11254.41500543 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 661.998, vol: 8723.59434 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 682.61, vol: 72920.66540471 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 645.0, vol: 6.88986081 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 697.39389, vol: 62193.27620000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 683.77, vol: 4668.65291758 | Volume-weighted last average: 687.368307639 [15:14]
deedbot: [Qntra] Remembering The Deadliest Spree Killing In US History - [15:36]
deedbot: [Qntra] "Reverse Feeding Tube" Latest Luxury Developed For Mayogendered Lifestyle - [16:54]
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: [16:55]
BingoBoingo: [16:56]
BingoBoingo: ^ asciilifeform [16:57]
asciilifeform: answr'd [16:57]
mircea_popescu: "an devices" ? [16:59]
BingoBoingo: ty, fxd [17:03]
asciilifeform: in other news, << continuation of earlier chinese mine film [17:17]
asciilifeform: in other lulz, guess who's an asset nao: [17:33]
mircea_popescu: ahahaha [17:34]
asciilifeform: 'Cybersecurity expert, libertarian presidential candidate, and founder of McAfee antivirus, John McAfee is taking over as CEO at publicly-traded MGT Capital Investments, Inc., (NYSE MKT: MGT). Fresh at the helm, McAfee is already charting a new course for the company, focusing on how to secure cryptocurrencies. The company previously invested in and developed a wide array of intellectual property.' [17:34]
mircea_popescu: nice. [17:34]
BingoBoingo: Gotta do something after losing the libertarian party nomination to the Johnson-Weld ticket [17:35]
asciilifeform: i can picture the letter, 'dear mr mcafee, would you rather be bound and gagged on next plane for orcland, or be TECH CEO!1111111111111' [17:39]
mircea_popescu: this is notably a dude that was wanted on a list of shit longer than my arm. [17:39]
mircea_popescu: where's that porn industry quote ? [17:41]
* BingoBoingo awaits Intel selling him his name back [17:41]
mircea_popescu: << nice to watch the experts and whatnot slowly finding their way through the world's digestive apparatus. [17:41]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-01 17:27 mircea_popescu: "She does stink and she should quit. But I don't want it to be because of me. It should be the traditional route years of rejections and failures till she's spit out the bottom of the porn industry." [17:41]
mircea_popescu: mcaffee today, titus steel tomorrow... [17:41]
asciilifeform: $s titus steel [17:42]
a111: 2 results for "titus steel", [17:42]
asciilifeform: who the hell is that [17:42]
asciilifeform: nothing in the l0gz [17:42]
mircea_popescu: "Cu o cariera de peste 15 ani in industria filmelor porno, Titus Steel este, fara dar si poate, cel mai cunoscut actor roman din aceasta bransa" [17:42]
mircea_popescu: obscure ro pron actor. [17:43]
mircea_popescu: there. [17:44]
asciilifeform: yeah but why mircea_popescuine fatwa against this dude [17:46]
BingoBoingo: Why not? [17:52]
mircea_popescu: wait what ? [17:56]
BingoBoingo: Deez comments [18:57]
mod6: so looks like openssl did change to https, and if you want to build with '', for the time being simply update the script by changing line 63 from: [20:24]
mod6: curl -s -o distfiles/openssl-1.0.1g.tar.gz [20:24]
mod6: to: [20:24]
mod6: curl -s -o distfiles/openssl-1.0.1g.tar.gz [20:24]
mod6: everything else stays the same. [20:24]
mod6: this is a temporary fix, and it's still on the agenda to get this resolved so we don't rely on remotely pulling down deps. stay tuned. [20:25]
mircea_popescu: word [20:26]
asciilifeform: mod6: neato. [20:35]
shinohai: ^ built [20:40]
mod6: thanks shinohai [20:45]
asciilifeform: unrelatedly, is apparently a thing. [22:00]
pete_dushenski: << 'what is wot' is as common a question as any for noobs. might be worth adding to the list. [22:27]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-14 01:33 mircea_popescu: ^ if anyone has suggestions... [22:27]
* pete_dushenski tips cap for mega-thread on 'specification'. strongly considers memorialising on contravex [22:29]
pete_dushenski: in voice of levitan, obv. [22:30]
asciilifeform: lel [22:37]
pete_dushenski: << in other lelz, 'cardboard on the floor' levels of retardation could just as well be in ba as ma. [22:40]
pete_dushenski: philg even includes nod to BingoBoingo's anti-mayobeetus campaign [22:42]
BingoBoingo: lol [22:43]
mircea_popescu: good point pete_dushenski [22:46]
BingoBoingo: << In Swedish Blondes [22:47]
mircea_popescu: ftr those cakes look fucking miserable. [22:49]
pete_dushenski: there is such a thing as dumb money [22:50]
mircea_popescu: lol angry swedish woman. nb. [22:53]
BingoBoingo: [22:55]
mircea_popescu: annnnnd in other news, [22:55]
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: trilema q : how in the hell is every old log.b-a link now a link ? [22:57]
mircea_popescu: this is in the logs :) [22:57]
mircea_popescu: $s from:mircea "SELECT" [22:57]
a111: 7 results for "from:mircea \"SELECT\"", [22:57]
pete_dushenski: damn [22:58]
mircea_popescu: make sure you touch all variants. http/https etc. [22:58]
phf: [23:01]
a111: Logged on 2016-04-23 02:06 mircea_popescu: update posts set post_content = REPLACE(post_content, 'a href="','a href="') will go from to [23:01]
pete_dushenski: sweetness [23:02]
mircea_popescu: fuck i searched for the wrong thing o.O [23:02]
mircea_popescu: speaking of mayo, [23:05]
pete_dushenski: funny, my son does the same thing with mushed banana [23:08]
mircea_popescu: hahaah yea. [23:08]
asciilifeform: later tell BingoBoingo << supposedly, the hole blown by police at orlando postal. notice the police bullet marks. [23:15]
gribble: The operation succeeded. [23:15]
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Impressive [23:15]
pete_dushenski: [23:51]
pete_dushenski: 'ude pics as IOU: a new, risky online loan among Chinese university students' [23:51]
pete_dushenski: *'Nude' [23:51]
phf: bitcoin loan for tits [23:54]
pete_dushenski: another mp innovation [23:54]
pete_dushenski: << one for fellow taleb fans : american university in beirut commencement speech [23:56]
BingoBoingo: [23:56]
deedbot: [Qntra] Lamestream Media Attacks Sanctity Of Marriage And Inanimate Objects After Orlando Shooting - [23:57]
Category: Logs
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