Forum logs for 20 May 2015

Sunday, 24 November, Year 11 d.Tr. | Author: Mircea Popescu
* Now talking on #bitcoin-assets [02:47]
* Topic for #bitcoin-assets is: || || || [02:47]
* Topic for #bitcoin-assets set by kakobrekla!~kako@unaffiliated/kakobrekla at Wed Mar 5 16:58:12 2014 [02:47]
-assbot- Welcome to #bitcoin-assets. To get voice (ie, to be able to speak), send me "!up" in a private message to get an OTP. You must have a sufficient WoT rating. If you do not have a WoT account or sufficient rating, try politely asking one of the voiced people for a temporary voice. [02:47]
mircea_popescu o hai alfie [02:48]
* #bitcoin-assets :Cannot send to channel [02:48]
* assbot gives voice to mircea_popescu [02:48]
mircea_popescu o hai alfie [02:48]
mircea_popescu whenever i sleep, he comes up with something. [02:49]
trinque ben_vulpes: oh the dieharder thing? [02:49]
ben_vulpes trinque: yeah, that [02:49]
ben_vulpes sil vous plait [02:49]
trinque ben_vulpes: [02:50]
trinque real simple change [02:50]
ben_vulpes ayup [02:50]
ben_vulpes zactly what i was lookin for [02:50]
ben_vulpes ty [02:51]
trinque np [02:51]
trinque the real solution is apparently unfucking dieharder more broadly [02:52]
trinque it diddles glibc internal preprocessor flags, so on [02:52]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 112100 @ 0.00026797 = 30.0394 BTC [-] {3} [02:57]
ben_vulpes "The key facet of the OS X audio I/O model involves predictive timing mechanisms. Instead of requiring the driver to message an application directly when an I/O cycle has completed, the timing mechanisms enable the Audio HAL to predict when the cycle will complete." << wowee [03:12]
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mats writing a driver are we [03:14]
ben_vulpes not if i can't help it [03:14]
ben_vulpes adc on the cheap via mic input [03:15]
mats its not so bad [03:15]
mats ah [03:15]
ben_vulpes maybe fuck it, record an audio file and nom those bits? [03:15]
ben_vulpes asciilifeform: ^^ [03:15]
* isaackl ( has joined #bitcoin-assets [03:16]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24800 @ 0.00028347 = 7.0301 BTC [+] [03:22]
ben_vulpes !up isaackl [03:32]
* assbot gives voice to isaackl [03:32]
ben_vulpes heyo [03:32]
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isaackl Thanks! [03:33]
ben_vulpes what brings you by? [03:33]
isaackl I was reading the epic conversation with justJanne [03:33]
isaackl Figured since I've actually read a decent amount of and the b-a logs I should finally join the chan [03:34]
ben_vulpes o you have have ya [03:34]
ben_vulpes welcome [03:35]
isaackl Heh [03:35]
isaackl < I see there was already some discussion of [03:36]
assbot Logged on 13-05-2015 21:42:17; asciilifeform: re: '21' etc >> 'The cornerstone of the strategy as presented would have been the release of consumer products that would turn power from wall sockets into bitcoin through the widespread dissemination of bitcoin mining chips.' << -somebody- clearly reads the 2013 #b-a logs. [03:36]
isaackl They keep derping about 'Bitcoin is a protocol'/internet-of-things craziness [03:37]
isaackl A bit at odds with their plan to leach electricity off consumers for mining [03:38]
isaackl So I wonder [03:38]
isaackl Is there 'bitcoin is a protocol' stuff a cynical ploy [03:38]
isaackl Or do they actually believe that stuff and know are desperately looking to put their VC bezzlebucks to good use [03:39]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 59385 @ 0.00027331 = 16.2305 BTC [-] [03:42]
isaackl I.e., how many of the VC-funded "crypocurrency! blockchain!" startups have realised the optimal move is simply to hoard bitcoin? [03:44]
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ben_vulpes isaackl: see the copious historical threads on how fiat-backed forays into bitcoin are more-or-less raiding parties for the US Treasury [03:48]
isaackl ben_vulpes: "Buterin's waterfall", etc? [03:49]
isaackl I would still bet that 95% of bitcoin startup guys are true believers [03:53]
isaackl So who are the 5%, how has USG compromised them [03:54]
ben_vulpes the waterfall was the windmill-tilt at driving the price to zero [03:56]
ben_vulpes are you familiar with the notion of "useful idiots"? [03:57]
isaackl Yeah [03:57]
isaackl (and their a16z backers) on paper seem too smart to be useful idiots [04:01]
isaackl Ethereum, sure [04:01]
ben_vulpes are you familiar with the buckshot approach to "investment" common in startuplandia? [04:01]
isaackl And if Balaji is a USG shill he's a damn good actor [04:01]
isaackl Yeah, I figured that as the most likely null hypothesis [04:02]
ben_vulpes dude the entire vc space is incredibly cynical [04:02]
ben_vulpes overt "greater fool theory" investments everywhere. [04:02]
ben_vulpes 21 doesn't pass the even-barely-making-sense test. [04:03]
* assbot removes voice from isaackl [04:03]
ben_vulpes the days of thousand+ coin scams are nowhere near past us, they're just denominated in dollars now. [04:03]
ben_vulpes !up isaackl [04:03]
* assbot gives voice to isaackl [04:03]
ben_vulpes get in the wot, you. [04:03]
isaackl I'm registered [04:04]
punkman 21 seems like a reasonable chumpatron to me [04:04]
isaackl Not yet rated [04:04]
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BingoBoingo !up vexual [04:04]
* assbot gives voice to Vexual [04:04]
isaackl Indeed, my guess was Balaji raised on buzzword bingo (blockchain technologee! IoT!) and then groped around for an actual plan [04:05]
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isaackl Last gig was freelancing for another startup (curiously, also backed by a16z and qualcomm). Their big product was an Android emulator, lots of users, crazy schemes to try and monetize them [04:07]
ben_vulpes !getrating isaackl [04:07]
ben_vulpes !gettrust isaackl [04:07]
assbot Trust relationship from user ben_vulpes to user isaackl: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. | | [04:07]
* NewLiberty_ ( has joined #bitcoin-assets [04:08]
ben_vulpes !rate isaackl 1 new startupfounder [04:08]
assbot Request successful, get your OTP: [04:08]
isaackl "cynical" but also, in the long-run, impractical [04:08]
ben_vulpes !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.isaackl.1:d0dd779d88427861d58d13a6e07d75fbf1db8ea67e2735938e6bce91f97a517f [04:08]
assbot Successfully added a rating of 1 for isaackl with note: new startupfounder [04:08]
ben_vulpes [04:08]
isaackl Thanks! [04:08]
ben_vulpes easy come, easy go. [04:09]
ben_vulpes and what are you working on now? [04:09]
* assbot gives voice to Adlai [04:09]
ben_vulpes evening, Adlai [04:09]
isaackl Though I'm not a "startup founder" [04:09]
Adlai but are you a ninja? [04:09]
isaackl I'm just derping around in Thailand, riding motorbikes, and reading up on finance, cryptography and bitcoin [04:10]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 124000 @ 0.00028202 = 34.9705 BTC [+] [04:12]
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ben_vulpes sounds like quite the life [04:13]
isaackl It's pretty good! [04:13]
isaackl End-goal is to build a legit bitcoin biz but I've read so I'm not rushing into anything [04:15]
ben_vulpes and to think that was written in 2012 [04:15]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 118966 @ 0.00028265 = 33.6257 BTC [+] {2} [04:16]
ben_vulpes isaackl: what kinds of businesses do you have your eyes on? [04:19]
isaackl Well, taking the thesis that the real value of bitcoin is as an inflation hedge, and that funds will increasingly flow into bitcoin as people realise this [04:24]
isaackl (i.e., after a few more reward halvings mean less coin is being dumped on the market by miners, speculators have been burned enough times that more coin is held by long-term investors and volatility drops a bit) [04:25]
isaackl Sensible bitcoin businesses are those that increase the value of btc as an investment (not user adoption or transaction volume or anything like that [04:27]
ben_vulpes wait whut [04:27]
ben_vulpes no no man no [04:27]
ben_vulpes a sensible btc business makes bitcoins for its owners [04:27]
ben_vulpes nothing more, nothing less [04:27]
mircea_popescu i see this is becoming a dailything now. [04:28]
ben_vulpes nobody can do anything to increase the value of btc as an investment. it's here, it's queer, nobody's changing it. [04:28]
ben_vulpes where'd the 55 yo steelworker get off to [04:29]
ben_vulpes ;;seen justJanne [04:29]
* mircea_popescu blames ben_vulpes [04:29]
gribble justJanne was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 16 hours, 8 minutes, and 45 seconds ago: Anyway, I'm sorry, but I don't have much time arguing with people like you stupidly about fictional politics. [04:29]
ben_vulpes i blame your keymageddon [04:29]
isaackl Hypothetical example: a hyper-secure bitcoin wallet that's easy enough for a Warren Buffet to use. Maybe not actually possible, but if it existed, much more wealth would flow into bitcoin, no? [04:30]
mircea_popescu in unexplectedly related lulz : [04:30]
mircea_popescu From: [04:30]
mircea_popescu Subject: Improve potency and gain more size [04:30]
ben_vulpes it's late, sense of humor got burned out at tango tonite [04:30]
mircea_popescu isaackl you ever read the causes/purposes article ? [04:30]
isaackl mircea_popescu: yeah [04:30]
mircea_popescu so why are you derping about various obscure purposes ? let it be. [04:30]
mircea_popescu if you can do something useful, do it. if not, relax and watch the show. [04:31]
* ben_vulpes attempts to rerax [04:31]
isaackl OK, concrete idea I had [04:31]
mircea_popescu no, but see... you ever read the ideas article ? [04:31]
isaackl Which one? [04:32]
mircea_popescu trick question, wasn't one per se. but the idea is why the fuck do you think you're having ideas ? [04:32]
isaackl OK, no ideas. [04:33]
mircea_popescu leaving alone how "concrete idea" is a contradiction in terms. [04:33]
mircea_popescu 1) find some group you respect ; 2) work on their ideas ; 3) there is no 3. you will have ideas, yes, but you'll never have to try and sell them like noobs with "my film idea" in hollywood. [04:33]
isaackl This is indeed why I spend my time right now just researching [04:34]
mircea_popescu aite. [04:34]
mircea_popescu !gettrust isaackl [04:34]
assbot Trust relationship from user mircea_popescu to user isaackl: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 1 via 1 connections. | | [04:34]
* assbot removes voice from isaackl [04:34]
mircea_popescu do you know how to self-voice even ? [04:34]
mircea_popescu !up isaackl [04:35]
-assbot- You voiced isaackl for 30 minutes. [04:35]
* assbot gives voice to isaackl [04:35]
isaackl Cheers [04:35]
mircea_popescu pm assbot !up [04:35]
* assbot removes voice from Vexual [04:35]
isaackl OK, unlike justJanne I'm very willing to have my youthful derpiness forcefully removed [04:35]
isaackl Why I came here [04:36]
mircea_popescu cool. [04:36]
ben_vulpes << bitrot! [04:36]
ben_vulpes !up Vexual [04:36]
mircea_popescu what are you doing now, stalking Germany ? [04:36]
trinque ben_vulpes: hoard ye all PDFs that can be found! [04:36]
ben_vulpes ha! [04:36]
ben_vulpes when did vexual get unbanned? [04:36]
mircea_popescu when jurov bitched. [04:36]
isaackl My reasoning was, there's multiple candidates to unseat the USD. RMB, Gold, BTC [04:37]
* assbot gives voice to Vexual [04:37]
ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: yeah i'm going to find her photo and then doxx her [04:37]
mircea_popescu isaackl what's this, like an exam of sorts ? the heavenly throne is holding a vote to replace the old usd with a spiffy young fellow ? [04:37]
isaackl Currency is a schelling point. People with lots of USD start buying bitcoin, eventually there's a runaway effect [04:37]
mircea_popescu ben_vulpes intel has her photo, at 16 and current. looks a little tranny. [04:38]
ben_vulpes poor thing, no wonder she's spending her life in my little pony chans [04:38]
isaackl No, just the aggregate decisions of people with lots of USD. If 60% choose to buy gold and 40% choose to buy btc [04:38]
mircea_popescu it's the blessing of suck, you know ? very beautiful (and i mean, VERY, stunner beautiful) chicks develop early adolescence dementia because of all the insane sexual attention they get and don't really want, need, or know what to do with. [04:39]
mircea_popescu very smart chicks develop the same, because of the same, only different but in the end the same. [04:39]
mircea_popescu adults are fucking perverts. [04:39]
mircea_popescu isaackl the idea being that your representation of this thing is manufactured for the needs of representation. it's what they call a didacticism, with no actual connection to reality. bad way to think. [04:40]
* ben_vulpes ponders [04:41]
isaackl Then gold will quite possibly win the runaway effect. The gold mining rate is a constant 1.5% or so a year, so post a few more reward halvings bitcoin has the advantage [04:41]
mircea_popescu ;;bc,stats [04:41]
gribble Current Blocks: 357233 | Current Difficulty: 4.880748724468138E10 | Next Difficulty At Block: 358847 | Next Difficulty In: 1614 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 4 days, 18 hours, 44 minutes, and 40 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 47459292440.3 | Estimated Percent Change: -2.76227 [04:41]
mircea_popescu negative now huh ? [04:41]
mircea_popescu isaackl come up with the formula for bitcoin inflation, i'm curious. [04:42]
ben_vulpes "this coordinate system is highly unportable, and it always ended up being an intermediate stage to some other coordinate system. Thus this coordinate system has been exorcised and should be avoided in the future. JPM 1-29-91" << i am actually growing to love software archaeology [04:42]
isaackl mircea_popescu: OK, to connect it to reality. Sovereign wealth fund, has a lot of USD. Realises USG is shaky and wants to diversify. How do they decide how much to allocate to gold or bitcoin? [04:42]
mircea_popescu ben_vulpes yup. cultural archeology is the superset, antrhopology being the application. it's what the wise do with their time. [04:42]
mircea_popescu isaackl seriously, print out the formula. [04:42]
mircea_popescu (it's not really that hard) [04:43]
isaackl mirce_popescu: 50% mined between 2009 and first reward halving, halves after each reward halving [04:43]
mircea_popescu nope. [04:43]
isaackl What? [04:43]
ben_vulpes my problem is finding the things that fit in my head [04:43]
mircea_popescu that's not the formula. [04:43]
isaackl mircea_popescu: k [04:45]
isaackl What is this, a Google interview? [04:45]
mircea_popescu Idt = Mdt / _M3 + C%dt. [04:45]
mircea_popescu and now we read it out loud : [04:46]
ben_vulpes this is ASSETTTTTS [04:46]
mircea_popescu bitcoin inflation over an interval equals the mined coins over that interval divided by the average monetary mass during that interval plus the percent change over that interval. [04:46]
mircea_popescu Estimated Percent Change: -2.76227 << that thing is the last term. [04:46]
mircea_popescu bitcoin nominal inflation may be whatever it may be, but its REAL inflation is always zero. [04:47]
ben_vulpes what is "real" inflation? [04:47]
mircea_popescu obviously before bitcoin nobody even understood that there is ANOTHER kind of real inflation, and thus therefore the real inflation from before is actually yet another kind of nominal inflation [04:47]
mircea_popescu ben_vulpes yes. [04:47]
isaackl Because the mining rate is known in advance and already priced in? [04:47]
ben_vulpes difference between what one expects the monetary base to do and what it's actually doing? [04:47]
mircea_popescu anyway, all this given here to underscore the fact that this shit is really fucking complex, to the point of excluding most specialists, let alone amateurs. [04:48]
mircea_popescu isaackl no. vice-versa [04:48]
mircea_popescu because IT prices YOU in. [04:48]
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isaackl Damn you're like a Zen master. You need a stick [04:48]
mircea_popescu i am just very old. [04:49]
isaackl Anyway, all I was getting to is that in the long run, even gold is softer than bitcoin [04:50]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 63600 @ 0.00029184 = 18.561 BTC [+] {3} [04:50]
isaackl And in the universe where everyone with USD is a hyper-rational optimal investor, bitcoin takes over. [04:50]
ben_vulpes in all universes. [04:51]
ben_vulpes there is no better money. [04:52]
isaackl Clearly not this universe. And gold has the advantage that people have millenia of experience securing physical things. Bitcoin can be more secure than gold, if you know what you're doing. But people lose wallets, forget passwords, choose crackable keys, etc [04:53]
isaackl Not a problem with bitcoin [04:53]
mircea_popescu unrelatedly, for the journos and other news fiends watching the log : i came to a resolution of a major sticking point re the rsa factorisation thing, large article coming in a few hours. [04:53]
ben_vulpes ah shit [04:53]
ben_vulpes i was going to go to sleep [04:54]
isaackl But is a problem for people considering using it. [04:54]
mircea_popescu ben_vulpes you goitta sleep sometime [04:54]
ben_vulpes isaackl: gold has this vault problem. [04:54]
isaackl ben_vulpes [04:54]
ben_vulpes big, obvious, easily walked off with by your local government. [04:54]
isaackl ben_vulpes: yeah. another pro to btc [04:54]
ben_vulpes assuming that you can even amass a quantity of the real stuff, and aren't playing with paper. [04:54]
ben_vulpes besides, securing physical things comes down to guns. [04:55]
mircea_popescu the monopoly on violence problem makes everyone unable to actually hold gold. [04:55]
ben_vulpes yeah, that. [04:55]
mircea_popescu < [04:55]
isaackl What I'm getting to is, if you can make a secure wallet that's easy to use for, say, the peter schiffs of the world, that increases the demand for bitcoin, no? [04:56]
ben_vulpes no. [04:56]
ben_vulpes they have staff. [04:56]
ben_vulpes if they want btc, they get btc. [04:56]
mircea_popescu isaackl you really think i depend on you to make me the tools that the universe requires for my survival ? [04:56]
ben_vulpes what's scaring people off (which is unimportant, but let's pretend for a moment) is the horrendous shitpile that the bitcoin source actually is. [04:57]
mircea_popescu what's next, if you could make a bomber plane that could get through china's defenses then that'd increase demand for planes ? [04:57]
mircea_popescu i.... i imagine they know that. [04:57]
isaackl mircea_popescu: no. [04:58]
isaackl To be clear, I wasn't proposing to make such a thing. [04:59]
ben_vulpes isaackl: your 'wallet' experiment also suffers from the inescapable existence of ease of use and security of cryptographic goods at opposite poles. [04:59]
isaackl ben_vulpes: indeed. even smart people fuck this shit up [05:00]
ben_vulpes and /routinely/. [05:00]
ben_vulpes the only way to get good at it is to do it. [05:00]
ben_vulpes repeatedly. [05:00]
mircea_popescu that's what the abbot told the virgin, at any rate. [05:01]
ben_vulpes as with dance, sex, wine, etc. skin in the game as a prerequisite for competence. [05:01]
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* assbot removes voice from isaackl [05:05]
ben_vulpes !up isaackl [05:06]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28720 @ 0.00029211 = 8.3894 BTC [+] [05:06]
* assbot gives voice to isaackl [05:06]
* ben_vulpes yawns [05:06]
isaackl what's next, if you could make a bomber plane that could get through china's defenses then that'd increase demand for planes ? < Yes. Increased utility of bomber planes, USD would buy more [05:07]
isaackl Improve security of cryptographic goods, demand for bitcoin goes up [05:08]
ben_vulpes dude it takes a day to set up a rock solid btc infrastructure [05:09]
ben_vulpes if you don't have a day to do it correctly, you don't need to be in bitcoin badly enough [05:09]
mircea_popescu << pls tell me dank of fame is not now an internet meme !? [05:10]
cazalla <<< i dunno but i think anything grown in your backyard has you eating as a king, not a poor pleb [05:11]
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ben_vulpes "generas unique design makes it possible to make logic changes and feature enhancements to it on the fly without disrupting day-to-day operations of your users" << asciilifeform but how? [05:11]
assbot Logged on 20-05-2015 01:11:02; BingoBoingo: Today was the day of the planting of ornamental amaranths (Celosia). See cazalla I'm totally planting edible plants if I want to eat like the world's desperately poor! [05:11]
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mircea_popescu cazalla agreed. [05:12]
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mircea_popescu !up rdymac__ [05:20]
-assbot- You voiced rdymac__ for 30 minutes. [05:20]
* assbot gives voice to rdymac__ [05:20]
* assbot gives voice to wyrdmantis [05:22]
isaackl < Sure. And there aren't many rational reasons for people to hand over their bitcoins. (While most of the economy runs on fiat, makes sense to spend fiat and hoard btc). Gambling sites seem like one of the few options [05:24]
assbot Logged on 20-05-2015 07:23:40; ben_vulpes: a sensible btc business makes bitcoins for its owners [05:24]
isaackl SDICE, BBET, etc [05:24]
isaackl Gambling is rational if it's one of the rare games like poker where you can get an edge. Hard to design games like that, you need to convince the fish they can win too [05:25]
mircea_popescu sdice was -ev [05:26]
isaackl mircea_popescu: yeah. In which case you're basically selling entertainment [05:26]
davout mircea_popescu: unless martingale1!!1 [05:26]
mircea_popescu davout o right you are :p [05:26]
davout which goes back to convincing the fish they can get an edge [05:27]
davout imo it's the only thing that makes the dice games profitable, the endless supply of martingale-chumps [05:28]
isaackl Yeah. Poker is great at that, fishy play gets you the occasional exciting big win. Fishy play is -ev of course, but high variance [05:28]
* rdymac__ is now known as rdymac [05:29]
isaackl So on a table with 2 sharks and 6 fish, 2 fish will win a lot, the sharks and house will consistently make a little, and 4 fish will lose [05:29]
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isaackl Online poker eventually saw an accumulation of sharks and the fish left [05:29]
isaackl And some fish just love to gamble. I used to do marketing for the mobile-slots chumpatron, humorously people pay real money but they can't cash out real money [05:31]
isaackl But the virtual gambling kick is enough [05:32]
mircea_popescu davout hey, the first math class that pays for itself. [05:33]
ben_vulpes everyone in that class fails out [05:33]
mircea_popescu isaackl wait. the stupid "X Y Z" themed slot machines in ipad store ? [05:33]
mircea_popescu ben_vulpes that's how you run a real school. [05:33]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18934 @ 0.00028905 = 5.4729 BTC [-] [05:33]
isaackl mircea_popescu: yep. Android only these days [05:34]
mircea_popescu dude how the fuck does this stupid shit work [05:34]
mircea_popescu i've been trying to figure this out. [05:34]
isaackl Biggest money-making gaming genre on the play store [05:34]
mircea_popescu so... why not just you know, play a free one ?! [05:34]
mircea_popescu why not draw the thing on paper and win all the time ? [05:34]
mircea_popescu my mind was so blown... [05:34]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 174000 @ 0.00027518 = 47.8813 BTC [-] [05:34]
isaackl My personal theory was it's similar psychology to RPGs, clicker games, even strategy games a little bit. You're constantly chasing advnatages which let you chase advantages, etc [05:36]
isaackl So people playing slots aren't trying to win so they can buy stuff. They want to win so they get more gambling tokens [05:36]
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mircea_popescu but... [05:37]
mircea_popescu eh i give up. [05:37]
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cazalla they tried to ban em down under but no luck [05:39]
cazalla pokies ipad games are popular with the kids though [05:39]
cazalla must be a different type of addict who plays them, i can't imagine your typical gambler playing them seeing there is no moment of win/loss [05:40]
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isaackl mircea_popescu: what can I say, maybe they have no purpose, only dopamine causes [05:41]
mircea_popescu cazalla ikr? [05:42]
mircea_popescu isaackl i think they're too advanced for my puny brain [05:42]
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mircea_popescu the brancusi of digital. [05:42]
isaackl We targeted women in their 50s and 60s in places like Florida, if that makes sense [05:43]
isaackl FB lets you do things like target cigarette smokers. Who says it's not useful... [05:43]
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mircea_popescu so you used to do what, marketing for this ? [05:44]
isaackl Yeah [05:45]
mircea_popescu how would you like to do some marketing for me then ? [05:48]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 60050 @ 0.00027518 = 16.5246 BTC [-] [05:53]
ben_vulpes [05:53]
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mircea_popescu 13 keys so far btw. [06:08]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 88850 @ 0.00028146 = 25.0077 BTC [+] [06:08]
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kakobrekla any interesting ones? [06:15]
ben_vulpes lol you thought bitcoin needed space [06:15]
ben_vulpes a leading poker bot takes 12 TB of compressed data [06:16]
mircea_popescu yes. [06:21]
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mircea_popescu anyway, coupla hours. [06:24]
isaackl mircea_popescu: very much so. [06:41]
mircea_popescu ok, here's the deal : bitbet has a referral system, where one gets 1% of the value of bets made by referrals. [06:42]
mircea_popescu you get a 1btc budget, your job is to get > 1 btc in referrals over a month. [06:42]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23050 @ 0.00028692 = 6.6135 BTC [+] [06:43]
mircea_popescu in here dood. [06:44]
isaackl ok. online marketing for this kind of thing is usually about finding an under-exploited channel. [06:47]
isaackl what are people currently doing for bitbet referrals,how much low-hanging fruit has been plucked? [06:49]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 88355 @ 0.00028146 = 24.8684 BTC [-] [06:50]
mircea_popescu i dun think anyone did much of anything. [06:51]
Adlai isaackl: the most successful referrals are in useful banners, eg [06:51]
mircea_popescu i would guess 90% of all marketing is happening on 8chan via mike_c s banners [06:51]
mircea_popescu < up there [06:51]
isaackl The only banner I see links to trilema? But yeah, ifhe 8chan ads are fairly new, there's probably a ton of optimising can be done [06:52]
mircea_popescu well reload. [06:55]
mircea_popescu and they are 5 days old or so. [06:55]
mircea_popescu and yes there's probably a ton of work that can be done. just needs someone competent to do it. [06:55]
isaackl Then most certainly yes. [06:55]
mircea_popescu aite, addy ? [06:56]
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isaackl email or btc? [06:57]
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mircea_popescu btc, for your budget. [06:57]
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adlai isaackl: banners such as linking to eg [06:58]
adlai will establish the referral cookie for a month or so [06:58]
isaackl 1Bum3oXxbCLUg54snyL6rmBz7vRBuPUr6G [07:04]
mircea_popescu aite you'll have it later today. [07:05]
isaackl Cool! [07:05]
isaackl < and yes, I'll follow this advice [07:06]
assbot Logged on 20-05-2015 07:29:53; mircea_popescu: 1) find some group you respect ; 2) work on their ideas ; 3) there is no 3. you will have ideas, yes, but you'll never have to try and sell them like noobs with "my film idea" in hollywood. [07:06]
adlai the world according to 1bum [07:06]
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isaackl mircea_popescu: and how do you prefer to communicate? all through the channel? [07:12]
mircea_popescu i prefer to not communicate lol. do your job, report the methodology and results once you're done. you got a blog ? [07:12]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 89600 @ 0.00028802 = 25.8066 BTC [+] {2} [07:18]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 73171 @ 0.00028069 = 20.5384 BTC [-] {2} [07:19]
mircea_popescu 15. [07:20]
mircea_popescu holy shit on a fuckstick. [07:20]
cazalla hey isaackl, i know this one weird tip if you need some help [07:26]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 123100 @ 0.0002927 = 36.0314 BTC [+] {3} [07:32]
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kakobrekla mircea_popescu 0.5% [07:57]
mircea_popescu oh right. [07:57]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45400 @ 0.00028246 = 12.8237 BTC [-] [07:59]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26577 @ 0.00028246 = 7.5069 BTC [-] [08:01]
mircea_popescu ;;later tell vexual what's the story there ? [08:03]
gribble The operation succeeded. [08:03]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51050 @ 0.00028246 = 14.4196 BTC [-] [08:09]
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mircea_popescu [08:29]
mircea_popescu feel free to put it in... uh... hn, lmao. [08:30]
fluffypony lol [08:30]
davout mircea_popescu: it's on hn, let's watch the ranking pattern [08:32]
davout off to read it [08:32]
mircea_popescu o, it's glorious. [08:32]
davout so far, the ranking is on par with "I've been saying “Parmesan” wrong my whole life" [08:37]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23550 @ 0.00028246 = 6.6519 BTC [-] [08:39]
fluffypony davout: that was a great post! [08:40]
fluffypony :-P [08:40]
kakobrekla davout> so far, the ranking is on par with "I've been saying “Parmesan” wrong my whole life" < [08:41]
mircea_popescu better to say it wrong than eat it wrong amirite [08:41]
davout kakobrekla: kek [08:42]
mircea_popescu lol [08:42]
kakobrekla since I saw this clip, i always try to mispronounce it, if i remember on time. [08:43]
mircea_popescu ;;later tell justjanne Raphael Nicolai Fabian Randschau (Uni Kiel) top keks. [08:44]
gribble The operation succeeded. [08:45]
kakobrekla and this is the hn effect, supposedly [08:47]
scoopbot_revived More factored RSA keys, and assorted other considerations [08:47]
mircea_popescu kakobrekla on what, logs ? [08:47]
kakobrekla logs mostly but other stuff that runs on same box is included [08:48]
mircea_popescu aha [08:48]
mircea_popescu nb. [08:48]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 171573 @ 0.00027958 = 47.9684 BTC [-] {2} [08:48]
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davout number 23 : "PGP Global Directory Verification Key" <<< !!1 [08:55]
mircea_popescu you dont say. [08:55]
davout some guy from gnupg [08:56]
davout " Archive Automatic Signing Key" [08:56]
davout "Apple Product Security" [08:57]
* mircea_popescu underscores the ~probably~. it is not a certainly. not yet at least. moar uranium has to be mined first. [08:57]
davout but these are keys that simply -declare- this as an UID right? [08:58]
mircea_popescu dja want me to publish the actual archive as spit out by the test ? [08:58]
davout not sure i'd know how to exploit it [08:58]
davout might be interesting to have a table with the fingerprints matched with the uids you list [08:58]
mircea_popescu kinda left it as it is so people can independently check. [08:59]
mircea_popescu it's all a pgp keyserver archive download + python script away [08:59]
davout yea [08:59]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44790 @ 0.00027518 = 12.3253 BTC [-] [09:03]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 133494 @ 0.00027886 = 37.2261 BTC [+] [09:08]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 76355 @ 0.00027886 = 21.2924 BTC [+] [09:10]
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mircea_popescu << im not reading fucking pdfs [09:22]
assbot Logged on 19-05-2015 17:54:59; ascii_field: ;;later tell mircea_popescu very relevant >> [09:22]
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asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i keep various cheap gadgets around that will eat pdfs. you can get chinese printer that will, etc. (why? well, mathematical material is not likely to exist in any other form) [09:53]
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asciilifeform mircea_popescu: item in question treated rsa weakening from the use of peculiarly large exponents. [09:54]
asciilifeform << l0l aha. was waiting for somebody to notice. [09:55]
assbot Logged on 20-05-2015 11:51:47; davout: number 23 : "PGP Global Directory Verification Key" <<< !!1 [09:55]
assbot Logged on 20-05-2015 11:52:46; davout: " Archive Automatic Signing Key" [09:55]
Apocalyptic (why? well, mathematical material is not likely to exist in any other form) // except postscript maybe [09:56]
asciilifeform Apocalyptic: postscript suffers from precisely same problems as pdf (which is, after all, a minor variation on the former) [09:56]
Apocalyptic yeah, i'm not saying it's saner [09:56]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 288400 @ 0.00027025 = 77.9401 BTC [-] {5} [09:57]
asciilifeform until i saw the auto-updater crud, my most parsimonious hypothesis re: the matter treated in last section of mircea_popescu's article was that the buggers built a straight chumpmagnet, where lusers would search sks for email addr. of someone or other, and end up with latest key (try it) displayed being one of the 'magic' ones [09:58]
asciilifeform i presently suspect that there are versions of sks (and/or other pgptronics) which will stupidly display a legit fp for the magical keys. [10:00]
asciilifeform aaand we're up to 19. [10:08]
kakobrekla are you going to automate the display of results or will it be a full time job? [10:09]
asciilifeform kakobrekla: what do you think. [10:09]
kakobrekla you know me, 230v mains. [10:09]
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asciilifeform and yes, changes are coming. [10:11]
asciilifeform (such as 10x speedup, new tests - e.g., pollard-rho; etc) [10:12]
asciilifeform other observations - some of the items on the target list are of obvious diddlomatic interest; others are probably humint targets - some of them, rather intriguing, e.g., mr robert j hansen of [10:14]
asciilifeform and the various 'pirate party' folks, perhaps, will take some pleasure in seeing their names in this list. [10:15]
asciilifeform and how many of the data points are smokescreen ? [10:15]
asciilifeform (picture the stereotypical schoolboy who logs in to change his marks. does he change his and chums' alone? only if idiot) [10:16]
kakobrekla nah, taking in account the latest development, cosmic ray can alter all grades from a single student. [10:18]
asciilifeform aha [10:19]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 58200 @ 0.00027886 = 16.2297 BTC [+] [10:30]
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mircea_popescu mod6 nice work on the perf tests btw. [10:41]
mircea_popescu any idea what caused the oom ? if anything identifiable at all. [10:41]
asciilifeform mod6: and am i correct in my reading that thermonuke ver. never died ? [10:42]
mircea_popescu it would seem so. [10:42]
mircea_popescu which... yeah. [10:42]
asciilifeform it still frags like hell though [10:43]
mircea_popescu yeah [10:43]
asciilifeform but 'unfrags' to keep pace if you're on a real computer [10:43]
asciilifeform this is still not victory, but at least not runaway fandango [10:43]
mircea_popescu it's pretty close. [10:44]
davout <<< the correct way to perform such an attack would be to also generate a short keyid collision [10:44]
assbot Logged on 20-05-2015 12:54:33; asciilifeform: until i saw the auto-updater crud, my most parsimonious hypothesis re: the matter treated in last section of mircea_popescu's article was that the buggers built a straight chumpmagnet, where lusers would search sks for email addr. of someone or other, and end up with latest key (try it) displayed being one of the 'magic' ones [10:44]
mircea_popescu yes. [10:44]
asciilifeform davout: i was wondering same thing, as you might expect. anyone got an ancient copy of pgp for winblows handy ? [10:44]
mod6 <+mircea_popescu> mod6 nice work on the perf tests btw. << thx! [10:45]
davout !s short id [10:45]
mircea_popescu oh sht [10:45]
assbot 1 results for 'short id' : [10:45]
asciilifeform betcha some of the magickeys show a legit [10:45]
mod6 <+asciilifeform> mod6: and am i correct in my reading that thermonuke ver. never died ? << correct. [10:45]
mircea_popescu THATs what needs to be tested. pgpwin and what else was there ? [10:45]
mircea_popescu and the apple one [10:45]
mircea_popescu we'll get jack with the linux versions [10:45]
mod6 and 19 broken moduli nao [10:45]
mod6 wow. [10:45]
davout aaand the HN story is at... wait for it... 3 points [10:46]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i suspect that the 'apple product safety' thing is a target. that is, folks filing bug reports 'confidentially' [10:46]
mircea_popescu davout aww! [10:46]
mircea_popescu does it have negvotes ? [10:46]
asciilifeform apple, afaik, doesn't sell a pgptron [10:46]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform there is a pgp for mac thing yes [10:46]
davout mircea_popescu: i don't know, i really don't hang around hn very much [10:46]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes: ^ [10:46]
asciilifeform other habitual mac users ? [10:46]
asciilifeform diametric ? [10:47]
davout mircea_popescu: on osx you can either build GPG, or use this macgpg stuff, i use the former, so can't really help here [10:47]
* asciilifeform will ask around [10:47]
mircea_popescu <<< [10:47]
mod6 <+mircea_popescu> any idea what caused the oom ? if anything identifiable at all. << nothing specific yet. although the charts are interesting. Process Switches hit 4k before going to zero. [10:50]
mircea_popescu davout apparently "it’s impossible to downvote anything on Hacker News". i guess story just isn't interesting. [10:51]
asciilifeform should've mentioned japanese toilets, perhaps [10:51]
asciilifeform then it'd be a mega-hit. [10:51]
asciilifeform as in [10:51]
assbot Logged on 17-05-2015 19:23:18; davout: HN now displays "Why Japanese Toilets Are Failing in America (2013)" higher than this [10:51]
mircea_popescu anyway, enough stuff in phuctor's wake to keep dozens of crypto researchers busy for monthys if not years. [10:54]
mircea_popescu it's the equivalent of a tractor that just plowed through virgin land. all those delicious worms! [10:54]
mircea_popescu davout 138. More factored RSA keys, and assorted other considerations ( 3 points by davout 2 hours ago | discuss << it's greyed out, so i guess it got neg'd somehow. [10:58]
davout scam [10:58]
mircea_popescu cat trilema-20may2015.txt | grep -c "more-factored-rsa-keys-and-assorted-other-considerations" [11:00]
mircea_popescu 3826 [11:00]
mircea_popescu i wouldn't be too worried about it, it's probably on everyone's im [11:00]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MG] 35015 @ 0.00009 = 3.1514 BTC [-] [11:02]
davout asciilifeform: any recommendations on general purpose cryptography books? [11:04]
asciilifeform davout: there isn't terribly much good material other than the original 'red book' by - yes - schneier [11:07]
asciilifeform (before they scooped out his brain) [11:07]
asciilifeform 'applied cryptography' 2nd ed. [11:07]
davout yeah, i saw this one [11:07]
asciilifeform there is another mega-book: [11:07]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57717 @ 0.00027414 = 15.8225 BTC [-] [11:07]
asciilifeform crc's 'handbook of applied cryptography' [11:08]
asciilifeform [11:08]
asciilifeform ^ all of the chapters on www [11:08]
asciilifeform i have the dead tree, it is very nice. [11:08]
davout i can't read books on a screen [11:08]
asciilifeform get the tree. [11:08]
davout yes [11:09]
asciilifeform more or less the entire rest of the library on this subject is either pulp for lusers, or very narrow treatises for specialists [11:09]
davout gonna get the schneier one to get started [11:09]
asciilifeform (mainly bound journal reprints) [11:09]
asciilifeform not a bad place to start. but very bad place to end. [11:10]
asciilifeform unrelated, the toilets piece - - is pretty lulzy [11:10]
mircea_popescu iguess someone really should write a reasonable, 500 page, college degree (any field, proper) required to read crypto overview [11:10]
mircea_popescu it's damned time. [11:10]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform from 2013 ?! [11:11]
asciilifeform hey it's 'news' ! [11:11]
asciilifeform hn thinks so, no ? [11:11]
asciilifeform unless i somehow picked up wrong link [11:11]
mircea_popescu weird. [11:12]
asciilifeform << right link. [11:12]
asciilifeform yes, 2013. [11:12]
mircea_popescu i guess they're slow. [11:12]
mircea_popescu any bets on whether bock shows up incidentally ? [11:13]
davout so wrt the schneier book i see 'second edition', and '20th anniversary edition' [11:13]
mircea_popescu get the 90s version. [11:14]
mircea_popescu i don't remember what all he retardified post 2004 [11:14]
asciilifeform davout: i cannot comment re: whether 20th anniversary thing censored any of the goodies from 2nd ed, or added nonsense. but it strikes me as likely. [11:14]
mircea_popescu << heh. [11:14]
mircea_popescu << you're sensitive :) [11:16]
assbot Logged on 19-05-2015 18:42:29; jurov: both sides of that discussion made me cringe [11:16]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 118194 @ 0.0002731 = 32.2788 BTC [-] {2} [11:17]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform dude that zdnet article was probably the most idiotic thing i read today. [11:19]
mircea_popescu what the fuck is everyone involved on ? [11:19]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: ru lags as usual, [11:20]
asciilifeform 'debunked, rsa not broken' << 'this thread is about kittenz' (TM) [11:20]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform they readily admit "we took register piece and translated" [11:20]
asciilifeform sop [11:20]
asciilifeform at least spelled name this time. [11:21]
mircea_popescu is that thing even read ? [11:21]
asciilifeform kaspersky? yes, read. [11:21]
mircea_popescu ? 0 comments everywhere, i never heard of it etc. [11:21]
asciilifeform before long, herr böck will claim that he tipped us off to the mess of diddled keys on sks. [11:22]
mircea_popescu "Dennis Fisher · Michael Mimoso · Christopher Brook · Brian Donohue · Anne Saita." [11:22]
mircea_popescu say wut ? seems random spamsite, but in russian. [11:22]
asciilifeform tentacle of kaspersky iirc. [11:22]
mod6 <+asciilifeform> << i have this one too lol [11:23]
asciilifeform mod6: probably the most 'serious' general-purpose encyclopaedic work on crypto. [11:23]
mod6 yeah, it's solid [11:24]
asciilifeform at least, in the public. [11:24]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: [11:24]
asciilifeform ^ him, i think. [11:24]
mircea_popescu aha [11:25]
mircea_popescu << "a state of anarchy" is even better. like this glass being full of empty. [11:27]
assbot Logged on 19-05-2015 19:09:47; decimation: < anarchy is retarded [11:27]
mircea_popescu << i am too nonconformist to hang out with you guys anymore. [11:28]
assbot Logged on 19-05-2015 19:13:16; jurov: ANARCHY MUST BE ENFORCED AT ALL COSTS [11:28]
* You are now known as vampyr [11:28]
vampyr true anarchy comes from within outside! [11:28]
* You are now known as mircea_popescu [11:30]
mod6 :] [11:30]
mircea_popescu shit being emo gets boring real quick. [11:30]
mircea_popescu << it's a thing, yo. the history of "nordic countries" (post roman empire, because pre that history consisted of being pretty much the pasthun of the time, raped with a sharpened stake covered in burning greek fire) is like so : [11:31]
assbot Logged on 19-05-2015 19:21:04; decimation: mircea seems to credit the german geography for why 'nordic freedom' 'seems to work'. but I suggest it is the people themselves - having been beaten by the romans for centuries, and then forced by the church to mate outside their immediate family, they developed a concept of 'kinship' beyond L2 cousins [11:31]
mircea_popescu a) god hath decided to give free herring out in the scania sounds. consequently, swedes now have a kingdom [11:31]
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mircea_popescu b) god hath moved on, so now five centuries of hard labour and being basically as dirt-poor and pan troglodytus as the russian mujik. [11:32]
mircea_popescu c) god comes back in the shape of Kennedy and the Fulda gap. herring is being airlifted into berlin [11:33]
mircea_popescu d) god shapeshifts into a large oil find [11:33]
mircea_popescu e) that's going away. we are here. [11:33]
mircea_popescu for as long as the free herring still lasts, they can run around derping about how they meditatively comprehensified the deep secrets of the universe. [11:34]
mircea_popescu predictably, it'll be something utterly retarded like "stalin did it wrong, and marx was nordiccounntries.jpg anyway". [11:34]
mircea_popescu i have no fucking idea what west germany was thinking when it allowed the scumbags to join civilisation without first hanging every "intellectual" of the eastern school. [11:35]
mircea_popescu instead of parading them naked through the streets with a "i was a fucktard and am now sorry" thing around their neck, they let them sit around for twenty years coming up with reasons as to how their idiocy "wasn't really all that bad". [11:36]
mircea_popescu one only needs to look at the czech commies post ru invasion to understand exactly how abject people actually are. [11:36]
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asciilifeform [11:41]
assbot Logged on 25-03-2014 20:41:17; asciilifeform: Officially, all Soviet representatives regard these parasites with touching feelings of friendship, but privately they call them 'shit-eaters' ('govnoed'). It is difficult to say where this expression originated, but it is truly the only name they deserve. The use of this word has become so firmly entrenched in Soviet embassies that it is impossible to imagine any other name for these [11:41]
assbot Logged on 25-03-2014 20:41:18; asciilifeform: ght run as follows: Today we've got a friendship evening with shit-eaters', or Today we're having some shit-eaters to dinner. Prepare a suitable menu'.' [11:41]
mircea_popescu aha. [11:42]
mircea_popescu (for the record : the life of a smerd, like that of a kholop, was worth 5 grivna. that's about enough metal to make a decent shovel - roughly speaking the smartphone of the time) [11:49]
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mircea_popescu << sveet. [11:56]
assbot Logged on 19-05-2015 21:22:35; *: ascii_field pictures slaves sweating [11:56]
mircea_popescu << nice going. seems stable enough so far. [11:56]
assbot Logged on 19-05-2015 22:35:12; williamdunne: Should be 24/7, on an actual server and is cloaked [11:56]
mircea_popescu << this. [11:57]
assbot Logged on 19-05-2015 22:45:37; trinque: I'll negrate people who abuse it [11:57]
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mircea_popescu << voice is not the criteria jurov [11:58]
assbot Logged on 19-05-2015 22:50:05; jurov: if someone uses temporary voice to resubmit existing deed 1000 times, deedbot has nothing to say about it? [11:58]
mircea_popescu !up Helvetik [11:58]
-assbot- You voiced Helvetik for 30 minutes. [11:58]
* assbot gives voice to Helvetik [11:58]
Helvetik Hi, Bonjour ! [11:58]
mircea_popescu hello. who're you ? [11:58]
mircea_popescu << it would, and the whole thing's about bastards in the wild. [11:59]
assbot Logged on 19-05-2015 23:33:00; asciilifeform: (this could underplay the effect of 'bastards' however) [11:59]
Helvetik Sorry, I juste speak a little english. I'm here for to talk with davout [12:00]
fluffypony abonjour [12:00]
fluffypony bonjour [12:00]
fluffypony that thing [12:00]
mircea_popescu aok. [12:00]
davout Helvetik: if you really don't speak that much english mebbe join #bitcoin-fr, will be less painful for you :-) [12:01]
* fluffypony is on a train to Paris [12:01]
fluffypony Helvetik: [12:01]
fluffypony you must attend! [12:01]
davout fluffypony: on IRC? nice! still up for the monero meeting tomorrow? [12:01]
fluffypony davout: Thalys have on-board wifi :) [12:01]
davout fluffypony: the electric plugs are there only for the show on regular french trains [12:02]
davout so wifi is nice [12:02]
fluffypony lol [12:02]
mircea_popescu fluffypony how're you enjoying yurp ? [12:03]
fluffypony mircea_popescu: it's been fun [12:04]
fluffypony had a meetup in Brussels last night [12:04]
mircea_popescu cool. [12:04]
fluffypony and a bunch of Romanians came [12:04]
mircea_popescu anyone smart ? [12:05]
mircea_popescu << speaking of this, am I the only one nonplussed by all this "we use <> fixed exponent" bs ? it's an unavoidalbe magic number , okay, but it's tyhe sort that should eminently be a knob for the user. a proper gpg would have e user-settable at the key generation phase (with 65536+1 as a default, sure) [12:07]
assbot Logged on 20-05-2015 00:29:41; mod6: take a look at this: Is there any reason when allocating the space for p & q to do Eulers totient they would initialize the space with 'p' and 'p', instead of 'p' & 'q'? [12:07]
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mircea_popescu maybe i wanna use e = 2686977, whose business is it. [12:07]
fluffypony mircea_popescu: nah, some interesting guys but they're all just trying to do gambling stuff in Romania and elsewhere [12:09]
fluffypony so nothing mindblowing [12:09]
mircea_popescu aha. [12:09]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 100200 @ 0.00026766 = 26.8195 BTC [-] {2} [12:10]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28369 @ 0.00027388 = 7.7697 BTC [+] {2} [12:17]
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mod6 <+mircea_popescu> maybe i wanna use e = 2686977, whose business is it. << i was looking at this yesterday too, had the same impression. mpi_set_ui( e, 65537); [12:28]
mod6 by the end of the night i was digging into prime selection. gnupg does fast fermat checks in several places, but im starting to wonder if it wouldn't also be benificial to just check against a list of "Carmichael numbers" [12:29]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 95300 @ 0.00028287 = 26.9575 BTC [+] [12:34]
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mod6 lol, or why not just use Miller-Rabin instead?! [12:37]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 89500 @ 0.00028501 = 25.5084 BTC [+] [12:40]
mircea_popescu that's probabilistic tho [12:42]
mod6 oh it might actually do this somewhere anyway... there are some references in the docs... although i haven't found it in the code yet. [12:43]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 155050 @ 0.00029236 = 45.3304 BTC [+] {4} [12:47]
mod6 ahh, i see, you gotta pick the bases for a randomly. [12:51]
mod6 derp [12:51]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33031 @ 0.00028287 = 9.3435 BTC [-] [12:52]
mats unemployed life so good [12:52]
mats going to a music festival this weekend then san diego [12:52]
mats looking forward to pounding trustfund hotties on drugs [12:53]
mircea_popescu tape it. [12:53]
mats lol. [12:54]
mod6 maybe its this is_prime function [13:03]
mod6 lol, they used to have this "rabin-miller" function in the first import of gnupg (as so it's dated) that takes a paremeter "MPI n" and then does nothing and returns 0;;a=blob;f=cipher/primegen.c;h=07d83d8314d8588e4f425a4d171fc41ebb3be4a9;hb=5393dd53c5e06f0458949217317601b2eaed8350G [13:06]
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mircea_popescu win [13:08]
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mircea_popescu asciilifeform do you remember where the fuck is that discussion about how a good hardening approach is to deviate from the toolset the attacker might reasonably expect to find is ? [13:17]
Naphex mircea_popescu: a good attacker will do discovery, and map everything ahead of time. while there are some pluses into deviating from the toolset. they mostly come from building your own. which is going to end up better fitted for the task [13:22]
Naphex and you more knowledgeable into what runs where [13:23]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 73749 @ 0.00026665 = 19.6652 BTC [-] {3} [13:23]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20000 @ 0.00026361 = 5.2722 BTC [-] [13:29]
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danielpbarron !up Hasimir welcome to the biggest* best** irc channel! [13:41]
* assbot gives voice to Hasimir [13:41]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 107950 @ 0.0002616 = 28.2397 BTC [-] {3} [13:42]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 103300 @ 0.00025942 = 26.7981 BTC [-] {2} [13:46]
mircea_popescu Naphex this was more re nsa diddled hardware. [13:49]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 141849 @ 0.00026721 = 37.9035 BTC [+] {2} [13:58]
Hasimir danielpbarron, cheers ... you named it assbot? [14:00]
danielpbarron no; I think kako did that [14:01]
Hasimir well, whatever floats his boat I guess [14:01]
danielpbarron I noticed you've got a +4 in my L2 and a 0 in assbot's [14:01]
mircea_popescu << yes, but i already sound too paranoid. [14:02]
assbot Logged on 20-05-2015 00:42:58; decimation: so can someone explain why the nyse would have a bitcoin index without any actual bitcoin-backed securities for trade? [14:02]
mircea_popescu << atm it's just weird. i have nfi what that'd do. [14:03]
assbot Logged on 20-05-2015 00:41:46; mats: gpg is broke [14:03]
Hasimir hmm, oh ratings ... I tend not to rate bots, not even mine [14:03]
mircea_popescu !gettrust Hasimir [14:04]
assbot Trust relationship from user mircea_popescu to user Hasimir: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 3 via 3 connections. | | [14:04]
Hasimir and this key crap better not invalidate my pyme work [14:04]
Hasimir that would be such a let down [14:05]
mircea_popescu your what ? [14:05]
Hasimir I ported the python bindings for gpgme to py3 [14:05]
mircea_popescu << there's a reason nobody (tm) is using it. [14:05]
assbot Logged on 20-05-2015 00:47:39; mod6: holy shit gnupg v2 is bizzare! X_X [14:05]
mircea_popescu da fuck knows what's in that code. [14:05]
mircea_popescu Hasimir oh. [14:06]
Hasimir meh, 2.0 is such a waste of time ... 2.1, however, comes with all manner of entertainment [14:06]
mircea_popescu Hasimir mind giving a self-intro for they such as myself that apparently know you from 3rd parties but otherwise not ? [14:07]
Hasimir it's currently in a branch of (to be merged with master when I finish cleaning up the last of the ancient examples) [14:07]
Hasimir assuming rsa isn't screwed by then, of course ;) [14:09]
mircea_popescu << eh, the mit. about as relevant for tech as uzbekistan for banana pies. [14:09]
assbot Logged on 20-05-2015 00:58:59; pete_dushenski: and in other news, livejasmin is accepting btc, ripple raised $28 mn, and bitcoin is "leaderless" now : [14:09]
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* assbot removes voice from Hasimir [14:12]
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mircea_popescu << ahahaha wait seriously !? because of teh rsa ? [14:12]
assbot Logged on 20-05-2015 01:19:10; asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: so i walk into $redacted on monday and folks compare me to pons & fleischmann. so there'll be teasing, yes. [14:12]
mircea_popescu !up Hasimir [14:12]
-assbot- You voiced Hasimir for 30 minutes. [14:12]
* assbot gives voice to Hasimir [14:12]
* assbot gives voice to bitstein [14:13]
Hasimir no, not seriously, there's a big difference between some bunch of people with crap entropy sources and rsa being borked [14:14]
asciilifeform !up ascii_field [14:15]
* assbot gives voice to ascii_field [14:15]
ascii_field Hasimir: who said it was borked ? [14:15]
ascii_field other than idiot 'journalists' [14:15]
Hasimir though it it turns out to be the "you must all use openpgp cards" crowd I will laugh and laugh ... [14:15]
* mircea_popescu has trouble following . [14:15]
ascii_field mircea_popescu: << was on your site. and also see 'specificity of diddling' threads here. [14:16]
danielpbarron i have one of those cards; never used the thing [14:16]
assbot Logged on 20-05-2015 16:13:53; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform do you remember where the fuck is that discussion about how a good hardening approach is to deviate from the toolset the attacker might reasonably expect to find is ? [14:16]
Hasimir mircea_popescu, a ref. to a particularly hard-line stance taken by some people on gnupg-users [14:16]
mircea_popescu ascii_field yes but where ;/ [14:16]
mircea_popescu gimme an actual keyword [14:16]
ascii_field 'how to airgap, practical guide' i think it was. [14:17]
Hasimir mircea_popescu, well, listing a hundred and something frequent posters to gnupg-users with the statement "we probably have your private key" does imply a certain degree of breakage [14:18]
mircea_popescu o was it. [14:18]
ascii_field 'Just as long as you actually know what you're doing, this sort of arrangement increases the costs of attacking your setup astronomically...' [14:18]
mircea_popescu ah ty! [14:18]
ascii_field but iirc there was another [14:18]
mircea_popescu senile dementia is this sad situation when you recall what you said but not exactly nor where. [14:18]
mircea_popescu apparently some get it in their 30s ;/ [14:18]
ascii_field conan doyle in the 'sherlock holmes' stories described this [14:19]
ascii_field sorta the mental equivalent of a crowded hard disk. not quite same as senility [14:19]
mircea_popescu let us hope so. [14:20]
Hasimir mircea_popescu, take up chess, it helps keep you sharp(er) [14:24]
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Hasimir I returned to playing in order to make a good habit of it by the time senility struck in order to stave it off ... then discovered that years of IT logic paid off in unexpected ways [14:28]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40800 @ 0.00029399 = 11.9948 BTC [+] [14:28]
mircea_popescu meh, chess. i'd rather play hanoi towers. [14:30]
ascii_field << shitsquad pushed 'the button' nulling 'ups' it appears, l0l [14:31]
mircea_popescu i didn't know you were on reddit [14:32]
ascii_field was ages ago, when it was actually readable ('06-'08 or so) [14:32]
mircea_popescu ascii_field got a moment to peer review article ? [14:32]
ascii_field aye [14:32]
ascii_field out here without keys though [14:33]
mircea_popescu [14:34]
mircea_popescu oh [14:34]
mircea_popescu it'll wait. [14:35]
ascii_field ok [14:35]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20000 @ 0.00028091 = 5.6182 BTC [-] [14:36]
* assbot removes voice from Hasimir [14:43]
* assbot removes voice from ascii_field [14:45]
mircea_popescu "Some widely deployed RSA implementations choke on big RSA public exponents. E.g. the RSA code in Windows (CryptoAPI, used by Internet Explorer for HTTPS) insists on encoding the public exponent within a single 32-bit word; it cannot process a public key with a bigger public exponent." [14:46]
mircea_popescu birdy says. [14:46]
mircea_popescu ascii_field ^ [14:47]
mircea_popescu !up ascii_field [14:47]
-assbot- You voiced ascii_field for 30 minutes. [14:47]
* assbot gives voice to ascii_field [14:47]
ascii_field ahahahahhahahaha. [14:47]
mircea_popescu i seem to recall seeing a step-by-two dance ? aha ? [14:47]
ascii_field anyone know a winblowistic implementation of pgp ? as in, actually using microshit's api [14:47]
mircea_popescu our luzers are on windoze 10/10. [14:47]
ascii_field well aye, but traditional gpg built for mingw doesn't do this [14:48]
mircea_popescu at least not that any of us've noticed. [14:48]
mircea_popescu 25 ppm occurences can very well be a tiny pore in an otherwise solid implementation. [14:49]
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ascii_field the lost world of winblows pgptrons, closed-source crypto, etc. will have to be vivisected, likely [14:52]
ascii_field unrelated, [14:54]
ascii_field who is ? [14:54]
ascii_field in other news, herr kaspersky let in comment: [14:55]
mircea_popescu o look at that, quotes me ?! [14:59]
mircea_popescu i have nfi. [14:59]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 70850 @ 0.00029439 = 20.8575 BTC [+] {3} [15:20]
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mircea_popescu >> guy's reasonably informed huh. [15:28]
assbot Logged on 20-05-2015 06:57:41; isaackl: And if Balaji is a USG shill he's a damn good actor [15:28]
ben_vulpes claims to have read the logs, even! [15:29]
mircea_popescu links to mpoe-pr on forum, even. [15:30]
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mircea_popescu dude, i remember the time back in 2012 when the pressure cooker wasn't on yet and all sorts of people didn't appear retarded. [15:31]
mircea_popescu everyone's a dancer while sitting down. [15:31]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8182 @ 0.00028793 = 2.3558 BTC [-] [15:33]
mike_c Yes. Increased utility of bomber planes, USD would buy more << hm, how does the utility of the F35 compare to how much has been spent on it? [15:34]
mircea_popescu is that thing even built yet ? [15:35]
mircea_popescu "undergoing testing and final development by the United States" [15:35]
mircea_popescu mkay, two weeks. [15:35]
mike_c depends what you consider the thing. I mean, an "F35" exists, and some things on it work.. [15:35]
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mircea_popescu o look, total budget intended to pass 1 trn [15:37]
asciilifeform !up ascii_field [15:37]
* assbot gives voice to ascii_field [15:37]
ascii_field meanwhile... [15:38]
ben_vulpes ahaha [15:38]
ben_vulpes christ the braindamage. [15:38]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 55887 @ 0.00028793 = 16.0915 BTC [-] [15:39]
mircea_popescu so what, we're not going to allow the us in gossipd ? [15:41]
ascii_field in other nyooz, [15:41]
mats mircea_popescu: has been built. lotsa videos around of it doin the hovering trick. [15:41]
mircea_popescu heh. it also only has 2 a-a missiles ? [15:42]
mats its utilitarian! [15:42]
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mircea_popescu oic. [15:42]
mats does everything and sux at em all. [15:42]
mircea_popescu so 2.5k planes of 2 missiles each. the chinese only have like 10k [15:42]
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mircea_popescu except of course by 10k we mean "can get up in the air at least 10k" [15:42]
mats [15:43]
mircea_popescu whereas by 2.5k we mean... uh. [15:43]
mats short take-off to hover. [15:43]
mircea_popescu maybe i miss something, but why do you want a plane to helicopter ? [15:43]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 66469 @ 0.00029499 = 19.6077 BTC [+] {2} [15:44]
ascii_field for use on carriers ? [15:44]
mats vertical take-off [15:44]
mats yeah, carriers and emergency landing zones. [15:44]
mats e.g. in the field. [15:44]
mircea_popescu but this is a fighter jet, right ? [15:44]
mircea_popescu if you stop you're dead anyway [15:44]
mats yeah. its stupid. design by committee. [15:45]
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ascii_field the need for runway is an ancient annoyance to airplane folks [15:45]
ascii_field the attempts to do away with it - make sense [15:45]
mats osprey's not doing so good so i guess they decided to experiment more with f-35. [15:46]
ascii_field (conventional machine on runway is just as vulnerable as 'hoverer') [15:46]
mircea_popescu section 3.5 - "some servers in our scans used Java's DSA primes as p, [15:46]
mircea_popescu but mistakenly used the DSA group order q in the place of the [15:46]
mircea_popescu generator g ... This substitution of q for g is likely due to a [15:46]
mircea_popescu usability problem: the canonical ASN.1 representation of [15:46]
mircea_popescu Diffie-Hellman key exchange parameters (coming from PKCS#3) is a [15:46]
mircea_popescu sequence (p, g), while that of DSA parameters (coming from PKIX) is [15:46]
mircea_popescu (p, q, g); we conjecture that the confusion between these formats led [15:46]
mircea_popescu to a simple programming error." [15:46]
mircea_popescu is this related to mod6 find in any sense ? [15:46]
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ascii_field not as i understand [15:47]
ascii_field (and i'm still at a loss to craft a situation where gpg's p and q will occupy varying number of 'limbs' and lead to catastrophe in the given line) [15:48]
ascii_field ^ does not mean that such is impossible [15:48]
mircea_popescu "the electronic edge F-35 enjoys over every other tactical aircraft in the world may prove to be more important in future missions than maneuverability" << check it out, it got wifi [15:49]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28165 @ 0.00029553 = 8.3236 BTC [+] {2} [15:50]
ascii_field where do horrors like come from ? [15:50]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32485 @ 0.00030253 = 9.8277 BTC [+] {2} [15:51]
ben_vulpes re: F-35 << "shuttle" debacle all over again [15:52]
mircea_popescu the F-35C taking 43 seconds longer than an F-16 to accelerate from Mach 0.8 to Mach 1.2 [15:53]
mircea_popescu aaaaahhahahaah omfg. [15:53]
mircea_popescu so they built a spitfire ? [15:53]
mircea_popescu "In March 2013, USAF test pilots, flying with pre-operational software that did not utilize the all-aspect infrared AAQ-37 DAS sensor, noted a lack of visibility from the F-35 cockpit during evaluation flights, which would get them consistently shot down in combat." [15:55]
mircea_popescu Defense spending analyst Winslow Wheeler concluded from flight evaluation reports that the F-35A "is flawed beyond redemption"; in response, program manager General Chris Bogdan suggested that pilots worried about being shot down should fly cargo aircraft instead. [15:56]
mircea_popescu o this shit's epic. [15:56]
mats "lets ignore the guys who've been flying the most dangerous air frames in development for twenty years" [16:01]
BingoBoingo Updated [16:01]
mike_c davout:gonna get the schneier one to get started << mod6 told me to read this, it is awesome. I feel stupid for not having read it sooner. [16:02]
mircea_popescu "Even in its third iteration, the F-35’s helmet continues to show high false-alarm rates and computer stability concerns, seriously reducing pilots’ situational awareness and endangering their lives in combat;" [16:02]
mircea_popescu = the closed-source java blob they're using actually reboots in flight [16:02]
mircea_popescu nb BingoBoingo [16:03]
BingoBoingo The silliest thing about the F-35 clusterfuck is the US had a decent somewhat stealthier plane in the F-22 coming off the line in flyable shape and... It was too expensive. Nao it would have been cheaper. [16:05]
mircea_popescu "In all these instances, data reporting and processing rules were changed during the year for no other reason than to paint a more favorable picture. Maintenance problems were determined to be so severe that the F-35 is only able to fly twice a week." [16:06]
mircea_popescu dude. [16:06]
mircea_popescu no way. come on. [16:06]
mats BingoBoingo: well, the F-22 and F-35 do different things. [16:06]
mircea_popescu what is this, deliberate slapstick ? [16:06]
mats they're intended to fly tandem in combat. [16:06]
mircea_popescu mats f22 flies tues, thurs fri, and weekend f35 mon and wed -> tandem ? [16:07]
BingoBoingo mats: For some definitions of different (everything the F-35 B&C do-ish) [16:07]
* assbot removes voice from ascii_field [16:07]
BingoBoingo !up ascii_field [16:09]
* assbot gives voice to ascii_field [16:09]
mod6 mike_c: hey! glad you like it :] [16:13]
davout mike_c: which edition? [16:15]
davout 20th anniversary or 2nd edition? [16:15]
mike_c I have 2nd. 20th anniversary looks like just a PR thing? not different content? [16:17]
mod6 ya 2nd edition [16:17]
davout alrighty, it's also cheaper on amzn [16:20]
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davout fluffypony: you in paris nao? [16:25]
ascii_field << l0ltr0n1c [16:33]
ascii_field BingoBoingo ^^ [16:33]
jurov i heard f35 cannot transition from hover to forward movement [16:33]
jurov it has to land and reconfigure itself first [16:34]
ascii_field jurov: at least downward movement still worx [16:34]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 58250 @ 0.00030281 = 17.6387 BTC [+] [16:35]
jurov dunno why the haven't attached flea legs instead, would work same as vtol [16:35]
ascii_field in other nyooz, << yes, same ubiquiti that made 'edgerouter' [16:36]
ascii_field as in, the one sold to iran 'against sanctions' with boobytrap included [16:36]
ascii_field (see log) [16:36]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20150 @ 0.00029876 = 6.02 BTC [-] [16:45]
mircea_popescu also [16:49]
* wao_ is now known as wao [16:50]
mike_c our buddy is leaving! [16:51]
mircea_popescu aww. [16:52]
mircea_popescu does it say why ? [16:52]
mike_c no.. oddly vague about that. doesn't seem to be a firing. [16:52]
ben_vulpes probably wants to spend more time with his family [16:53]
mircea_popescu heh. [16:53]
mats promoted to head cocksucker. off to DC! [16:53]
mircea_popescu !s private eye from:mircea [16:53]
assbot 1 results for 'private eye from:mircea' : [16:53]
ben_vulpes ah shit [16:53]
mike_c "to start his own legal and consulting firm" [16:53]
ben_vulpes s/family/nailgun [16:53]
mike_c found the original article on nyt: [16:54]
bitstein "Mr. Lawsky, who has spent his entire two-decade legal career in government, plans to open his own firm and serve as a lecturer at Stanford University, people briefed on the matter said." [16:57]
bitstein whoops, my irc chat wasn't scrolled all the way down [16:57]
ben_vulpes hey bitstein [16:57]
ben_vulpes << lol for all the printing they still can't keep atms full? [16:57]
bitstein howdy ben_vulpes [16:58]
mircea_popescu it's vtol cash. [16:58]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17500 @ 0.00029805 = 5.2159 BTC [-] [16:59]
asciilifeform !up ascii_field [16:59]
* assbot gives voice to ascii_field [16:59]
ascii_field 'Unpaid Intern is, as the byline properly describes, an unpaid intern. Unpaid intern is a fresh-out-of-school, wide-eyed journalism grad who thinks one day they will make it to the New York Times. In the meantime they are stuck here, so they better get used to it.' [16:59]
ascii_field waitasec [17:00]
scoopbot_revived St Louis Federal Reserve Bank DNS Hijacked Last Month [17:00]
bitstein "Democratic state Rep. Senfronia Thompson criticized the company by saying that 'it would have been wiser if Mr. Tesla had sat down with the car dealers first.' But there is no 'Mr. Tesla' involved in the company, which is named after the late inventor Nikola Tesla and is founded and run by Elon Musk." [17:00]
ascii_field why that thing was in english ? [17:00]
BingoBoingo !b 2 [17:01]
ascii_field the 'bubblear' link, i mean [17:01]
assbot Last 2 lines bashed and pending review. ( ) [17:01]
ben_vulpes ascii_field: because i'm an esl derp [17:01]
ascii_field but, for whom was it posted ? [17:02]
mircea_popescu bitstein honestly, the blowing up of the entire "car dealers" bs is pretty much the only thing i actually like about mr tesla. [17:02]
BingoBoingo I kinda prefer Tesla's earthquake machine [17:03]
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bitstein I liked Mr. Tesla's pigeon: [17:04]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13754 @ 0.00029429 = 4.0477 BTC [-] [17:05]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 139700 @ 0.0003002 = 41.9379 BTC [+] {3} [17:10]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47999 @ 0.00029429 = 14.1256 BTC [-] [17:12]
mats fun fact: windows 8.1 will sometimes triple fault when bugchecking when a kernel debugger is attached [17:15]
davout can someone explain to me how i'm able to malloc into existence more than 1tb, fill the first byte with some random int, and have valgrind report the massive allocated space. all this with a whopping 4gb ram and 512gb hdd? [17:18]
davout "in use at exit: 1,155,346,237,534 bytes in 1,500 blocks" <<< oO [17:18]
ascii_field davout: iirc he was tracking whole box, not bitcoind per se [17:19]
mircea_popescu notrly valgrind's problem, this. if system reports it as allocated, it's allocated as far as its concerned [17:19]
mircea_popescu what kernel is this ? [17:19]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 134042 @ 0.000289 = 38.7381 BTC [-] {4} [17:19]
davout it's on osx [17:19]
Apocalyptic lol [17:20]
davout fucking around with C, this confuses me [17:20]
mircea_popescu prolly some osx cleverness ? [17:20]
davout mebbe [17:20]
davout i'm afraid if i try on an ec2 box i'll accidentally break the internet [17:21]
mircea_popescu ascii_field : << shilling intensifies! [17:21]
mircea_popescu nao, linking "phuctor" anchor to usg-replacement. [17:21]
ascii_field 'no real world impact' [17:22]
ascii_field tr0l0l0l [17:22]
Apocalyptic mircea, that's hilarious [17:24]
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ben_vulpes i'm afraid if i try on an ec2 box i'll accidentally break the internet << "we can therefore we must" [17:26]
davout lol [17:26]
mircea_popescu !up Landgull [17:27]
-assbot- You voiced Landgull for 30 minutes. [17:27]
* assbot gives voice to Landgull [17:27]
Landgull Oh, thank you. I don't really have anything to say, though, I'm here to listen. [17:27]
mircea_popescu cool. [17:27]
Apocalyptic anyway "factored" in this sense doesn't mean much [17:28]
mircea_popescu which sense ? [17:29]
* assbot removes voice from ascii_field [17:29]
Apocalyptic in the sense of finding a prime factor of a modulus that has more than 2 [17:30]
Apocalyptic I mean you can get a standard 4096-bit sane RSA key, multiply N by 3 and there you go [17:30]
* mircea_popescu is not following. [17:30]
Apocalyptic someone "factors" it, finds the 3, but the key is still as strong as the sane one you started with [17:31]
mircea_popescu well, it's complicated. [17:31]
mircea_popescu suppose the exponent was 3. [17:31]
Apocalyptic public exponent or private ? [17:31]
mircea_popescu !up ascii_field [17:31]
-assbot- You voiced ascii_field for 30 minutes. [17:31]
* assbot gives voice to ascii_field [17:31]
ascii_field ty mircea_popescu [17:31]
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ascii_field Apocalyptic: read mircea_popescu's latest article to learn how the bulk of the booby keys were generated [17:32]
mircea_popescu Apocalyptic iirc shcneier actually was recommending e=3 (d is the private traditionally) [17:32]
Apocalyptic ascii_field, I will [17:32]
ascii_field Apocalyptic: you can actually create them on your own, given the info [17:32]
Apocalyptic i'm just commenting on the first invalid subkey that was discussed [17:32]
ascii_field the result is essentially same as using a random integer as a modulus [17:32]
ascii_field i.e., likely to be pollard-rho-able and/or lenstra-able. [17:32]
ascii_field conceivably some of the resulting moduli are even... prime. [17:33]
ascii_field i certainly have not tested for this. [17:33]
Apocalyptic conceivably some of the resulting moduli are even... prime. // would be trivial to check [17:34]
ascii_field aha [17:34]
ascii_field but the reason why malefactor did this 'random' bit, [17:34]
ascii_field is almost certainly because statistically - these are -easy- to break apart. [17:34]
ascii_field and give some plausible deniability, as we saw, at least works on idiots [17:35]
ascii_field 'cosmic rays', 'bad blocks on disks' [17:35]
Apocalyptic anyway mircea it was just to say that in this case I would call it factor only if modulus is totally broken into primes, something i've referred as full factoring, otherwise not much you can do [17:35]
ascii_field Apocalyptic: properly lenstra-ing these is certainly on the agenda [17:36]
ascii_field but not #1 [17:36]
Apocalyptic (note that this isn't even stricly a RSA key anymore) [17:37]
Apocalyptic *strictly [17:37]
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ascii_field violates every assumption behind hardness of rsa, yes [17:37]
Apocalyptic ascii_field, ok, would love to compare the results when you're done, i'm throwing some stuff at it atm [17:37]
ascii_field which was the intent of whoever crafted it, yes. [17:37]
ascii_field neato [17:37]
ascii_field [17:39]
ascii_field for what it's worth [17:39]
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Apocalyptic ascii_field, of the 19 broken moduli so far how many are actually valid subkeys ? [17:41]
ascii_field Apocalyptic: at least two, iirc, had valid sigs. The remainder divide into ones with invalid selfsigs and ones with absent ones entirely (stripped) [17:42]
ascii_field i will do a proper tally shortly [17:42]
ascii_field incidentally you can run the heuristic finder yourself [17:42]
ascii_field comment out the bit with 'giant exponents' [17:43]
ascii_field (these are rampant, >1300 instances alone) [17:43]
scoopbot_revived frantic activity as a defense against impotence - with poop! [17:45]
ascii_field at the moment, i would like to collect a sample of material signed with one of the -legit- keys for which a 'magic' key exists [17:45]
ascii_field and see what happens when one actually tries to verify the signature with 'magic' key (and its bizarre composite mega-exponent) as reference [17:45]
ascii_field example: [17:46]
ascii_field top result is 'magic' [17:46]
ascii_field next one (also 2-02) is legit key [17:46]
ascii_field hanbot: if it isn't on sks, it isn't really public is it [17:46]
ascii_field afaik the only possible point of crafting these -was- to disseminate them publicly as spurious copies of the real thing [17:47]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 147200 @ 0.00028083 = 41.3382 BTC [-] {2} [17:49]
mircea_popescu hanbot seems improbable. [17:54]
ascii_field hanbot: and clearly the process, whatever it was, did not want to be found. but it does appear to consist of fucking with purported -public- keys and therefore intrinsically findable. [17:55]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 76542 @ 0.00028208 = 21.591 BTC [+] [17:55]
mircea_popescu Apocalyptic well, "totally broken". depends what you're trying to do and so on. having a known small factor is already breakage [17:56]
mircea_popescu ie, you wouldn't use that key. [17:56]
ascii_field given as the bulk of the samples consist of the owner's own moduli with every other 32-bit word doubled (overwriting its neighbour) - the amount of 'crafting' appears to be minimal. in this particular case (there were other breakable keys.) [17:56]
hanbot hm. [17:56]
Apocalyptic mircea_popescu, it is breakage in the sense it reduces the apparent security, the key may still be pretty much alright [17:57]
ascii_field thing about small factors is that we have them here because the moduli are essentially random shots in the integer dark. [17:57]
ascii_field how likely is 'all right' key when shooting at random ? [17:57]
Apocalyptic (if intentionnaly made this way) [17:57]
mircea_popescu i dun see this argument. [17:57]
mircea_popescu anyway, you could just run a probabilistic test on it. [17:57]
Apocalyptic mircea_popescu, ok, let's start again [17:57]
ascii_field Apocalyptic: read mircea_popescu's article where appears. [17:57]
* assbot removes voice from Landgull [17:58]
mircea_popescu !up Hasimir [17:58]
Apocalyptic let's say I take the two secret primes of my present key [17:58]
-assbot- You voiced Hasimir for 30 minutes. [17:58]
* assbot gives voice to Hasimir [17:58]
mircea_popescu go ahead [17:58]
mircea_popescu Apocalyptic aha. [17:58]
Hasimir well, let's see there's Rob Hansen's key [17:58]
Apocalyptic I multiply then the modulus N by 3 (or any other small prime, the value doesn't matter) [17:59]
Hasimir RSA flaw? [17:59]
ascii_field Apocalyptic: except that this is not how it was done [17:59]
Hasimir his key is DSA2 & El-Gamal [17:59]
Apocalyptic I submit it to phuctor, its screams "Moduli factored !" [17:59]
ascii_field Apocalyptic: bugger took every other 32-bit word and copied over neighbour. [17:59]
Apocalyptic but the key is still as strong as my original [17:59]
mircea_popescu Hasimir "Rob Hansen" doesn't appear on the page ? [17:59]
Apocalyptic Apocalyptic: except that this is not how it was done // exactly [17:59]
Hasimir no. 92 & 93 [17:59]
Hasimir in Stan's list of "we have your private keys" [18:00]
mircea_popescu aha [18:00]
Apocalyptic i'm just trying to show that finding a small factor is not inherently breaking the key [18:00]
mircea_popescu lemme fish them out for you a sec. [18:00]
ascii_field Hasimir: whos key is this [18:00]
ascii_field Hasimir: we only see it here if it had one or more rsa subkeys. [18:00]
Hasimir rjh@sixdemonbag [18:00]
mircea_popescu Apocalyptic finding a small factor is not inherently breaking a specially crafted key that was made to have that one small factor, yes. [18:00]
mircea_popescu this isn't the assumption here [18:00]
mircea_popescu ascii_field ima get the key one sec. [18:00]
Hasimir it has an rsa signing subkey [18:00]
ascii_field Hasimir: there we go. [18:00]
ascii_field so that'd be it [18:01]
Hasimir but the rest of it isn't [18:01]
Apocalyptic ascii_field, as the poeple whose key you're listing probably didn't craft it this way, it's very probable that it's further broken, yes [18:01]
mircea_popescu Hasimir doh. [18:01]
mircea_popescu well, it would be the rsa wouldn't it. [18:01]
ascii_field Hasimir: we don't deal with the rest of it. [18:01]
Hasimir which means no getting the private cert or decryption [18:01]
Apocalyptic Apocalyptic finding a small factor is not inherently breaking a specially crafted key that was made to have that one small factor, yes. // this is all i was arguing :) [18:01]
ascii_field the experiment specifically concerns moduli, not keys. a key contains zero or more rsa moduli [18:01]
Hasimir ascii_field, just the signing subkey? [18:01]
mircea_popescu Apocalyptic well sure, theoretical theory. but if you run a factorizing algo on any of the keys you'll see they break apart. [18:02]
* assbot removes voice from ascii_field [18:02]
mircea_popescu !up ascii_field [18:02]
-assbot- You voiced ascii_field for 30 minutes. [18:02]
* assbot gives voice to ascii_field [18:02]
ascii_field Apocalyptic: there is a reason why generating proper rsa keys is cpu-expensive [18:02]
Apocalyptic I know [18:02]
Hasimir ascii_field, then claiming to have derived the private key is a wee bit disingenuous [18:02]
Apocalyptic and yes if found in the wild, the assumption you are making is a safe assumption [18:03]
ascii_field barring some entirely unknown and very interesting number-theoretical result, the word-doubling is overwhelmingly likely to yield an 'easy' modulus. [18:03]
mircea_popescu Hasimir wouldja quote the claim you speak of ? [18:03]
Hasimir sure one tic [18:03]
Hasimir "Are you on this list ? We probably have your private key" [18:03]
ascii_field Hasimir: private key naturally would correspond to the phony key [18:03]
mircea_popescu Hasimir so what's disingenuous ? [18:03]
Hasimir alright, if it's not, what method did you use to crack el-gamal? [18:04]
ascii_field and go apply pollard rho, and lenstra, you will have the private. you don't even need us for this [18:04]
ascii_field Hasimir: we don't deal in el gamal! [18:04]
ascii_field or dsa [18:04]
mircea_popescu it's a rsa factorization service. [18:04]
ascii_field or '22: proprietary reserved algo' [18:04]
Hasimir which is the point [18:04]
ascii_field (yes, lots of these. wtf) [18:04]
mircea_popescu Hasimir i do not see this point. [18:05]
mircea_popescu the way text works is not that reader is free to make whatever assumptions he wishes and it is the responsibility of the text to explicitly dispel them [18:05]
Hasimir ok, let me see if I'm reading the article correctly [18:05]
mircea_popescu the way text works is that the reader has the job of forming a mental image that does not contradict the text. [18:05]
Hasimir you only deal with rsa, you only claim to have rsa priv keys, but you list dsa/elgamal keys as broken ... [18:06]
mircea_popescu i dun see dsa/elgamal keys were listedf. [18:06]
ascii_field mircea_popescu: he appears to be taking issue with interchangeable use of 'keys' and 'moduli' [18:06]
Hasimir this one: 0x23806BE5D6B98E10 [18:06]
mircea_popescu in general, one's at liberty to create a Patented Leather Assymetric Key and give it his name [18:06]
mircea_popescu if he also has a rsa key by the same name, he will be in the list of rsa keys. [18:06]
mircea_popescu ascii_field except a modulus does not exist outside of a key. [18:07]
ascii_field Hasimir: understand, someone can create a key containing an rsa modulus of the kind described here using a modified copy of your, e.g., el gamal, key [18:07]
ascii_field and it will show on our list [18:07]
Hasimir ah [18:07]
mircea_popescu pgp has no way to enforce names [18:07]
Hasimir true [18:08]
mircea_popescu you can create a key for obama and sks will list "obama's" key. [18:08]
mircea_popescu what's one to do ? [18:08]
Hasimir as all the ones prove [18:08]
mircea_popescu now, of that list, at least some are thoroughly broken [18:08]
mircea_popescu two examples are given there, each with two moduli with 8-12 digit factos known [18:08]
mircea_popescu some others are yet unknown [18:08]
ascii_field Hasimir: the shenanigans exposed appear to have an intent which includes - but not necessarily limited to - passing off spurious rsa keys for various names [18:08]
Hasimir which is why you need to specify the key ids, otherwise you're spreading unnecessary panic [18:09]
mircea_popescu hence "probably". and hence [18:09]
assbot Logged on 20-05-2015 11:53:36; *: mircea_popescu underscores the ~probably~. it is not a certainly. not yet at least. moar uranium has to be mined first. [18:09]
ascii_field Hasimir: so far each of the cases i have examined in detail had -at least one- legit rsa modulus in subkeys [18:09]
mircea_popescu Hasimir you have read the paragraph at the beginning yes ? [18:10]
ascii_field and the panic is entirely the work of the enemy, who is passing around the idiot strawman that 'rsa was broken. oh wait, no it wasn't! disregard the whole thing!' [18:10]
Hasimir yes [18:10]
ascii_field btw, re: random numbers as moduli: [18:11]
ascii_field ^ mandatory [18:11]
Hasimir alright then, take a crack at mine, same one as used with -otc and in my /ns info [18:11]
mircea_popescu Hasimir if it's been already processed you can see yourself the result [18:12]
mircea_popescu if not, it will be [18:12]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17250 @ 0.00027831 = 4.8008 BTC [-] {2} [18:12]
Hasimir it has been, but reprocessing hasn't occurred in 2 years [18:12]
mircea_popescu wut ?! [18:12]
Hasimir I checked it in 2013 [18:12]
ascii_field Hasimir: add it to the queue [18:13]
mircea_popescu i have no idea what you're saying. [18:13]
Apocalyptic phuctor was live in 2013 ? [18:13]
mircea_popescu yes, as it happens, oct. [18:13]
Apocalyptic aha [18:13]
mircea_popescu Hasimir just put the pubkey in the box and it'll tell you if it has or hasn't [18:13]
* NewLiberty_ is now known as NewLiberty [18:14]
ascii_field i will be very surprised when a 'proper' pubkey that some fella actually has on his own box, fails the test [18:14]
mircea_popescu ascii_field some that had only broken moduli, in pairs. [18:14]
ascii_field mircea_popescu: quite a few. which is consistent with the 'random bits make terrible rsa moduli' thing. [18:15]
mircea_popescu aha. [18:15]
ascii_field were all of them even odd, lol [18:15]
mircea_popescu yes [18:15]
ascii_field at least this. [18:15]
mircea_popescu we blessfully don't have 2~!11 as a factor yet [18:15]
mircea_popescu that'd be the sadness of all time. [18:15]
danielpbarron my key won't retest [18:15]
mircea_popescu there's no such thing as a retest [18:16]
mircea_popescu oh, is it rebuilding the P huh ascii_field [18:16]
ascii_field aha [18:16]
mircea_popescu danielpbarron server's atm busy with a large computation which is why it's not answering ya [18:17]
Hasimir ascii_field, where's the code you use to run these tests anyway? [18:19]
ascii_field Hasimir: [18:19]
Hasimir cool [18:19]
ascii_field very simple, but works. [18:19]
Hasimir sqlite3 db full of keys ... ouch [18:20]
Hasimir though probably better than the sks solution [18:21]
ascii_field Hasimir: whole thing was ~2 days' work [18:21]
ascii_field so not optimal by any measure [18:22]
Hasimir yeah, you might want to look at the keybox (.kbx) format used in gpg 2.1, designed to improve lookup speed with larger keyrings [18:22]
Hasimir though you'll lose all the v2 keys [18:23]
ascii_field no thanks. [18:23]
Hasimir but then we should probably lose them anyway [18:23]
ascii_field ? [18:24]
Hasimir ok, these weak ones you found, have you identified a common generation program? [18:24]
mircea_popescu nope. [18:24]
mircea_popescu they're not even all in the same class. [18:24]
Hasimir and v2 keys == pgp 2.3 to pgp 2.6(i) [18:24]
mircea_popescu at least two, maybe three different types so far [18:24]
Hasimir do they all have subkeys or not? [18:25]
ascii_field Hasimir: read carefully. we do not know where they came from. but the largest class we identified so far appears to consist of carefully crafted spurious keys, made with a particular transformation of original legit ones. [18:25]
mircea_popescu all what ? [18:25]
Hasimir well, that list 160 reads like regular posters to the enigmail mailing list [18:25]
Hasimir or possibly gnupg-users [18:25]
mircea_popescu tbh, someone has to explain this "subkeys" retardation to me sometime. fucking pseudohierarchy devoid of meaning. [18:25]
Hasimir I recognise most of the names [18:25]
mircea_popescu they're all keys. how you package them is irrelevant [18:26]
mircea_popescu Hasimir i am aware. [18:26]
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trinque heh sqlite always comes up as "not fast" in conversation [18:31]
trinque I wonder if anyone ever tests this hypothesis [18:31]
ascii_field trinque: was going for 'simple' rather than 'fast' [18:32]
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trinque sure, I am saying I've personally never found sqlite3 to be slow [18:32]
trinque probably comes with comparisons to key-value stores that do barely anything aside retrieve by key [18:33]
mircea_popescu trinque seems it has issues wiht locking [18:33]
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trinque ah yeah I guess it's bad at concurrent writes; that's fair [18:35]
jurov someone has to explain this "subkeys" retardation << guess mr.zimmermann overengineered it and then left to rot [18:36]
jurov GNU picked it up then [18:36]
fluffypony davout: yes - had supper at Le Keller [18:37]
trinque << I think this helps [18:37]
fluffypony which was very nice [18:37]
davout fluffypony: neat! never been there [18:37]
trinque !up Hasimir [18:38]
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davout fluffypony: what are you keeping yourself busy with tomorrow? visiting? [18:38]
fluffypony I need to tweak the presentation a bit, so the wife will go to the spa for a couple of hours [18:38]
davout ah you took her with, nice! [18:39]
fluffypony and then we'll probably do the Louvre because we haven't been in AGES [18:39]
davout it's pretty massive [18:39]
asciilifeform !up ascii_field [18:40]
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fluffypony yeah I know, but neither of us are terribly au fait with it, so we'll just dip our toe in;) [18:40]
ascii_field [18:40]
ascii_field << example of someone for whom only breakable key is on sks [18:40]
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Apocalyptic ascii_field, this may be more affordable to fully factor than HPA invalid's [18:51]
ascii_field Apocalyptic: as a general rule, an rsa modulus generated without regard to rules (primality testing, pollard-rho, the lot) is cheap to factor. [18:53]
ascii_field the authors of the fakes also relied on the 'plausible deniability' of using random crud rather than proper mods [18:53]
Apocalyptic well given what i've tried on that HPA's i would not fully concur here [18:53]
ascii_field for all we know, this is a straight 'dos' and no one actually knew the privates to these [18:54]
ascii_field and the purpose was to force the victims to revert to plaintext [18:55]
Apocalyptic that's a possibility yes [18:55]
ascii_field there is also mircea_popescu's 'magic flag' hypothesis. [18:55]
Apocalyptic I guess maybe e isn't even prime with phi(N) on those [18:55]
Apocalyptic and as such there is no private to even begin with [18:55]
ascii_field Apocalyptic: look at the e [18:55]
Apocalyptic haven't looked [18:55]
jurov 's got a "new" n900... after just a few hours it's clear why nokia had to be gutted [18:58]
ascii_field jurov: ? [19:01]
jurov ascii_field: you ever had it? [19:01]
ascii_field nope [19:01]
jurov it's..debian [19:02]
jurov true one, not something android-bastardized [19:02]
ascii_field what of the baseband ? [19:02]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 109700 @ 0.00027506 = 30.1741 BTC [-] {3} [19:03]
jurov i guess it's a device osmocom-gsm hackers use [19:03]
jurov but if i'm ever getting into such uber-illegal territory, i'm not advertising it here [19:04]
jurov i stand corrected, it's not this one [19:07]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 76410 @ 0.00027383 = 20.9234 BTC [-] [19:08]
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mircea_popescu jurov something like that. [19:31]
mircea_popescu Apocalyptic what have you tried ? [19:32]
Apocalyptic asciilifeform, somehow pgpdump refuses to print info about the invalid subkey, or at least I don't see the keyid referenced the way I see it for the master key and the signature packets [19:33]
Apocalyptic I suppose it's the same as the master one though, so this situation can't happen since e is itself a prime [19:33]
Apocalyptic mircea_popescu, rho pollard plus countless iterations of ECM for reasonable bounds assuming there is a 20-30 prime digit factor in the modulus reminder [19:34]
Apocalyptic I guess i'm gonna have to keep increasing it for a while [19:35]
mircea_popescu Apocalyptic you know it'd be halpful if youactually counted them / documented the attempts [19:35]
Apocalyptic I do count them [19:35]
Apocalyptic I will post a report if it leads to something, or if somebody wants it [19:36]
mircea_popescu well how many is countless ? [19:37]
Apocalyptic around 3000 probabilistic runs [19:37]
mircea_popescu and all for 10-20 digit ? [19:37]
Apocalyptic this should find any prime factor under *30* digits even [19:38]
Apocalyptic after 430 runs the probability of error is something like 1/e if I remember and if this doc is correct [19:39]
mircea_popescu depends a lot on the rng too [19:41]
Apocalyptic well that's why you run it multiple times [19:42]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57490 @ 0.00026437 = 15.1986 BTC [-] [19:42]
mircea_popescu no, you run it multiple times because it's probabilistic. [19:42]
mircea_popescu that doesn't fix a bad rng [19:42]
Apocalyptic oh, you mean that [19:42]
mircea_popescu (not saying it's likely the case, anyway) [19:42]
Apocalyptic yeah probably not [19:43]
mircea_popescu mind trying lenstra ? [19:43]
mircea_popescu eh nm you did say ecm. [19:44]
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Apocalyptic yeah, afaik ecm is lenstra [19:44]
mircea_popescu for some reason i was thinking you're doing rabin-miller [19:45]
Apocalyptic isn't that just a primality test ? [19:45]
mircea_popescu it is yeah. i need moar sleeps. [19:45]
mircea_popescu (it does sometimes yield a factor, but not reliably) [19:46]
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mircea_popescu anyway. laters all! [19:47]
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* Topic for #bitcoin-assets set by kakobrekla!~kako@unaffiliated/kakobrekla at Wed Mar 5 16:58:12 2014 [23:57]
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